0:00

None of the voices in

0:02

this series are ongoing patients of Esther

0:04

Perel. Each episode

0:06

of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling

0:08

session. For the purposes of maintaining

0:11

confidentiality, names and

0:13

some identifiable characteristics have

0:15

been removed,

0:17

but their voices and their stories are

0:19

real.

0:24

On Criminal, we bring you

0:26

true crime stories told

0:28

by people who know them best. We

0:31

didn't believe in setting fires because that was too

0:33

dangerous. We were, you know, a kinder,

0:35

gentler kind of crooks, so

0:37

to speak.

0:38

So the best plan you had was that you'd

0:40

lasso it. Yeah, never

0:42

imagined I'd use it for a camel. I'm

0:46

Phoebe Judge, and this is Criminal. Did

0:49

you have to say what was in the box?

0:50

Phoebe, we told lies.

0:54

Listen to Criminal every week, wherever

0:56

you get your podcasts.

1:01

I

1:07

have been in a relationship for the past 17 years.

1:10

We built a family together. Two

1:13

and a half years prior to our daughter

1:15

being born, I was approached

1:18

by two friends about donating

1:20

sperm for them to start a family.

1:22

I never told

1:24

about the donation, and I

1:27

actively

1:27

lied about it. I received

1:29

a text message from an acquaintance

1:32

I know. Two of their kids

1:34

are twins, and she texted

1:36

me that the father of

1:39

the twins is my

1:39

partner. At

1:42

the same point that I made

1:44

this donation, I was also

1:46

having a relationship with another woman.

1:49

He had been having an affair.

1:52

I chose to take him back.

1:54

She's starting to question

1:57

everything.

1:59

How do we move forward?

1:59

forward and is

2:02

this a

2:02

pattern? I don't

2:04

know if I can get over it and

2:07

at the same time I don't want to walk away from

2:09

something that

2:12

I adore so much.

2:16

And I don't get a chance to redo this with anyone

2:18

else because I'm 49 and I'm

2:20

not disabled.

2:22

It makes me question

2:24

myself if I'm being weak to

2:26

stay. How

2:29

do you get over a betrayal this

2:31

deep? I've

2:35

heard of many lies in

2:38

the

2:38

course of my 40 years of working

2:40

with couples. Sometimes

2:43

it's the lies of cheating or

2:45

stealing or sexual

2:47

abuse.

2:48

In this instance

2:50

he has a secret. The secret

2:53

is I donated sperm to

2:56

a couple of friends. My

2:59

friends, but you know them too.

3:02

And I never told you. And

3:04

one day when you asked me

3:06

and I responded

3:08

without responding, the

3:10

secret turned into a lie. The

3:13

lie turned into a deception. The

3:15

deception turned into a betrayal. And

3:18

now it has become a fiasco.

3:24

I have something called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.

3:27

It's a connective tissue disorder and

3:30

for me it affects my spine really bad.

3:32

So now I have a gait impairment and it's

3:34

affecting my voice and my hands will curl

3:37

up. So I could be fine walking

3:39

around and then it'll

3:41

hit me and I'll start having a gait. Like

3:44

all of a sudden I'll lock up. And

3:47

it adds layers into the complexity

3:50

of our situation

3:52

because I don't trust my body.

3:54

So you know. I need to trust him. I

3:57

trust parts of him. trust

4:00

that he will physically

4:02

take care of me or be there for

4:04

me and show

4:06

up for me for any sort of

4:08

a medical need. But there's

4:11

other parts that I've

4:13

lost trust in and I

4:16

really want to hear your insight because

4:19

they're severe betrayals

4:22

and I

4:24

want to know if I can

4:27

build that trust back and

4:30

not only that, are

4:35

there times when you stay with someone that you

4:38

can't completely trust because you love

4:40

them and you're really happy with your life?

4:44

Is it worth that sacrifice?

4:47

Or am I always going to feel like there's going to be another

4:49

shoe to drop?

4:51

But I'm glad you just framed

4:55

two very clear questions. Can

4:58

you rebuild trust

5:00

after it is broken? Broken

5:02

twice. Okay, so this is

5:04

the second? Yes. And

5:06

am I going to go for round three?

5:10

Okay, let me ask you.

5:13

What's the question you bring? The

5:15

question I bring is how

5:19

to rebuild trust after

5:22

this betrayal, which

5:24

is that I donated sperm

5:28

to a lesbian couple two

5:30

and a half years before our daughter was born.

5:34

I never told her. They pitched

5:36

me and yeah,

5:39

this is something I can do. But

5:41

I especially when

5:44

we got pregnant, I

5:48

had already signed away all my rights, but

5:50

I was uneasy about the situation

5:53

to say the least. I was feeling

5:55

like it's too late. I

5:58

can't do anything about it.

6:00

I kept it a secret. I

6:02

lied about it to keep that secret. Meaning?

6:06

Meaning. You were asked and you said no?

6:08

Yes. Who's the donor? Because

6:11

she knows this couple. Who's the donor?

6:13

And I said, oh. I

6:16

lied specifically to keep

6:19

the secret. So you have one

6:22

question that you both share about

6:25

what happened. Yeah. Why you

6:27

did what you did and how you managed it

6:29

and why it became a secret. Yes.

6:33

And then you have a question about now that the secret

6:35

is revealed.

6:36

There is how do you mend the betrayal

6:39

and then there is how do you manage

6:42

the reality of the fact

6:44

that there are other children. Yes.

6:47

And what does that mean for you individually, for

6:49

you as a couple and for all of you as

6:51

a family. And our daughter. Yeah.

6:56

One thing I'm going to put right in front here

6:58

is that you have just learned of this. So

7:01

a lot of today is completely

7:05

infiltrated with the recency of

7:07

the news. Absolutely. Okay.

7:10

If we had this conversation in six months,

7:12

we would be having a different conversation. I agree.

7:15

We're going to have the time that we have today

7:17

and it will be a conversation that's

7:20

going to end with three dots at the end of the sentence.

7:23

Okay. But let me gather

7:25

a tiny bit more info. I'm going to go

7:27

back for a split second because I

7:30

can't meet a couple without being

7:32

very curious always about the origin myth.

7:35

The origin story. Every couple has a

7:37

story of how they met and what brought

7:40

them together. And that helps

7:42

me understand also the betrayal.

7:45

So we've known

7:48

each other for 17 years. In 2009,

7:52

we were very much a couple, but

7:54

we hadn't been. And he kept someone

7:56

else that he had been seeing. He

7:59

loaned me his lap.

7:59

and his email was open and

8:02

he had been having a full-blown two-year affair with

8:04

this woman. And

8:08

how did you handle that? Did

8:10

we make sense of it? Yes,

8:14

in time. We spent quite

8:16

a bit of time apart and he

8:18

for the first time started therapy.

8:21

And what did you glean

8:22

from there? In

8:25

those months of therapy, I was really trying

8:27

to dig into what was driving

8:29

me, what was it? And

8:32

coming out of a divorce, I still wasn't ready

8:35

for a relationship. I was making a lot of decisions

8:37

based on what was

8:39

good for me or ego-based

8:42

things at the time.

8:43

I think I know and he

8:45

won't tell me. Meaning?

8:50

I think he is extremely arrogant

8:53

and that he thinks he could get away with it. And

8:58

I still love you very much. With

9:01

your narcissism. I love you. But

9:06

I think that you have traits that

9:10

sabotage us as a couple

9:13

and however you look at

9:16

it, it

9:19

also could be your own integrity. I

9:23

could be completely off base. But

9:26

how on earth do you

9:28

live this double life? For 11

9:31

years and have a magical

9:35

relationship if you're

9:37

not so arrogant, you

9:39

believe you can get away with it. You

9:42

know, it's very impressive. You're able

9:44

to hold many parts of him.

9:50

She's able to hold many contradictions

9:53

about him. The man who lies to

9:55

her and cheats on her, but also

9:58

the man who takes exquisitely good care. care

10:00

of her since she has been ill.

10:03

The man with whom she has created a

10:05

beautiful life and the man who has

10:07

kept a secret and lied flat

10:10

in her face. The ability

10:12

to hold those contradictions

10:15

is a feature of mature love.

10:22

I truly love him. Okay. I'm

10:25

going back to him. I

10:28

know that I have selfish tendencies.

10:32

My selfishness was based around

10:34

my traveling

10:37

or doing what I wanted to do.

10:40

How do you do what you want

10:42

and get away with it? Yes. That's

10:45

the piece. It's like nobody tells you what to

10:47

do. You kind of do what you want.

10:50

And what allowed for the magical thinking

10:52

is that in some level it disconnects

10:55

you from reality. If I don't tell

10:57

it,

10:58

it will not be known. My

11:00

fictitious reality becomes reality.

11:04

That's how we sometimes can live

11:07

with the deception and

11:09

convince ourselves that it's better like this.

11:12

That it would be too painful

11:15

to her or to your daughter. That

11:18

you've worked so hard at creating something

11:21

so beautiful. Why taint it?

11:26

He too lives with a contradiction because

11:29

he's acutely aware every

11:31

time that he's lying.

11:34

And he is going to confirm that with a host

11:36

of examples. And

11:39

the delusional thinking that accompanies

11:42

it is that if I don't talk about

11:44

it, the longer I don't tell, the

11:47

more it will disappear. So he goes

11:49

back and forth between, oh, it's nothing.

11:52

And it is the secret that sits in the

11:54

middle of the relationship.

11:59

I think that that sums

12:01

up a lot of

12:03

the situation and or

12:06

the reality I was living, which

12:08

is the

12:09

longer I don't tell, this

12:13

gets to continue. What, how

12:16

we're living and the happiness that we

12:19

have with each other, all

12:21

three of us gets

12:23

to keep going. In our

12:25

relationship, there were a hundred

12:27

different times that I wanted to say it. You're

12:31

watching a movie and there's a situation

12:33

that has some similarities or you watch

12:35

some documentary and three kids

12:37

who never knew each other come together

12:41

and I want to say it and

12:43

I could never find the words. And I

12:45

was still

12:47

too afraid to say it. And

12:51

I was too afraid of our

12:55

magic to end, our relationship,

12:59

it's been fantastic.

13:02

It's been great. Two

13:04

weeks before or a week before the mom

13:07

had texted to

13:09

reveal this,

13:11

we were having the discussion laying in bed like

13:13

are we really this lucky to

13:15

have this good of a life? We

13:21

would say that probably every other month

13:24

we would have a moment of, I love

13:26

you so much. We're so lucky,

13:28

which is part of the confusion for

13:34

me to realize I was being lied to all of that time when I

13:36

was so emotionally intimate with him.

13:40

That

13:46

moment felt so pure and perhaps it was, but

13:51

if this huge weight was

13:53

on his shoulders and now

13:55

he's feeling such relief. that

14:00

makes me believe that it must have still

14:02

been on his shoulders when he was pretending

14:04

like everything was great. So

14:07

I'm confused. Or that because...

14:10

He was compartmentalizing. And

14:12

because... or that because everything

14:14

was great,

14:16

it kept mushrooming

14:18

the fear. A

14:20

secret is like a mushroom. Yeah.

14:23

It starts like this and then

14:25

it grows. It got too

14:28

big. Like that's why I say as a human

14:30

being I can understand

14:33

at a certain point why he didn't tell. Now

14:35

I don't agree that it was right, but

14:40

I get it. Every

14:44

time people talk about the truth, it

14:48

always is about living with the consequences

14:50

of the truth.

14:52

In a way, he doesn't tell you the

14:54

truth

14:55

because on some level he knows

14:58

for fact that you won't

15:00

go for that. Or I'll be destroyed.

15:03

Or he'll be destroyed.

15:09

Well, a long-held lie or

15:11

secret explodes in

15:14

a relationship. It

15:16

has the capacity to

15:19

make us question the entire

15:21

story of the relationship. Does

15:24

that mean that everything else

15:27

is now redefined in

15:29

light of this new piece of information

15:32

and the whole thing was a lie? The

15:34

whole thing was a fraud. Not just

15:36

this lie that sat in the middle of the relationship.

15:40

For some couples, that does

15:42

happen. The whole relationship

15:45

is relabeled.

15:46

But at other times, like

15:48

here, what existed between these

15:50

two people is no less true,

15:52

authentic and heartfelt. And

15:55

it sat on the same couch together

15:57

with

15:57

the lie.

16:02

It's not because there was a lie, even

16:05

though it is what we often feel at first,

16:07

that the whole thing was a fraud. The

16:10

whole thing was a lie because there was a lie

16:12

in the middle of the beauty. That

16:14

is actually what I'm moving through right

16:16

now. I know. I know. And

16:19

sometimes one stays with that.

16:22

And sometimes I want to

16:24

say whatever was between you

16:26

was real as well. I

16:29

think they're both true. You understand? They

16:31

are both true. I agree. Yes. So

16:34

it's not this invalidates everything. There

16:38

was this beauty. And the fact that it was

16:40

magical, as you both described, only

16:42

reinforced the need for the secret. So

16:44

the whole thing becomes

16:49

perverse.

16:49

I see in their body language

16:52

that they both understand the

16:54

irony of this. But because

16:57

the relationship was so

16:59

magical, as they both call it, it

17:02

actually incentivized for

17:05

the lie to be kept under

17:07

wraps even more. The

17:09

more beautiful the relationship, the

17:11

bigger the risk that it could be destroyed.

17:14

But at the same time, because

17:17

it was so strong, it now has the

17:19

ability

17:19

to hold on and

17:21

stay grounded even though

17:24

it is being slapped left and right by

17:26

all these new discoveries.

17:29

For some couples, when

17:31

the lie explodes, it

17:34

is the end of the relationship. And

17:36

for those of you listening where

17:39

a lie and a betrayal was

17:41

the death knell, this may become

17:44

more challenging to listen to because

17:47

you may not have had the opportunity and

17:49

the groundwork necessary

17:52

to survive

17:53

a lie. How

18:00

did you get the decision?

18:03

It hurts so bad to see that she's

18:05

been destroyed by this, like she's shook.

18:09

And the fact that I

18:12

made the decision to donate

18:14

sperm, that I

18:16

made the decision not to tell her. Which

18:21

one is it, or both? One definitely

18:23

led to the other, is what I mean. But it's

18:25

because I didn't tell her. No, but if you had told her, what

18:27

would have happened? I almost

18:30

guaranteed that we wouldn't be here

18:32

today, and that we would have not had

18:34

a relationship.

18:36

If you had told when it happened? Yes.

18:38

When you began to be serious and you said two

18:41

years ago I donated? Yes.

18:43

Because you had done this before. You would

18:45

have said then we have no chance? Yes.

18:50

I believe in

18:52

same-sex marriage and sperm

18:54

donation and all of that. For

18:57

me personally, I want

18:59

to be with a man who wants to be with his biological

19:02

children.

19:03

I also

19:05

know the couple that

19:07

he donated to, and

19:12

I would not want to have half siblings with their

19:14

children. And that's not

19:16

the situation. Okay.

19:21

And you knew those people back then as well?

19:23

I did. Okay. The

19:26

plot tickens. They were just fearing this.

19:29

So there was a reason

19:32

for you not to tell? Yes.

19:35

I would have left. And

19:37

you knew that?

19:38

Yes. How? In

19:43

conversation, she said

19:46

things like, I don't want

19:48

to be with a man that has

19:51

any children from a previous marriage.

19:53

I don't recall it that way because

19:56

I actually don't feel that way. I

20:01

think I would be okay if

20:04

it were a man coming into my life

20:07

who had children. But

20:09

it was the deception and it

20:11

was the choice with people

20:14

who I knew who, in my opinion, were

20:18

not an appropriate choice.

20:24

If we separated now and I were

20:26

to meet a man with other kids, I

20:30

would take those kids on. And

20:32

to be honest with you, I'm not

20:34

having those feelings about the twins.

20:37

And it might be because everything is too soon.

20:40

I found out via text right

20:43

before the holidays

20:46

from one of the moms. He did not tell

20:48

me. So again,

20:50

it's another secret that I discovered. Why did that mother

20:53

connect with you and not with him? I have no

20:55

idea. I do not

20:57

feel like it was her secret to share.

21:00

The couple is divorced now. So

21:03

with her life in chaos, it could have been

21:06

her looking for stability,

21:08

camaraderie, family. She

21:11

did say, we are family now

21:14

and our children are half siblings. And

21:16

I know you're going to do the right thing. This

21:19

was all said in the same sentence.

21:22

But finding out again

21:24

of such a significant betrayal

21:27

by evidence presented to me,

21:30

not by him sharing

21:32

it with me, is

21:34

part of my pain

21:36

and moving forward with someone who I really

21:40

want to be with. If

21:41

I'm being honest with you, I want

21:44

to be with him. Can you be honest with him? Yes. I

21:47

love him so much.

21:49

But I think he's a tricky guy. I

21:51

think he's got a lot of charming

21:53

traits. And I think he

21:55

knows how to play me. So

22:00

I know if we don't work out, I

22:03

will be okay. But

22:05

it's not really what I want to do. And,

22:09

um... There's

22:11

one question I won't ask you to do. I

22:14

won't ask you what you want. Okay.

22:18

I want to just share another layer

22:20

that's going through my mind. I

22:25

feel undateable because

22:27

of my medical condition. So

22:32

starting over now is going to be a lot different

22:34

than starting over than it was the last time.

22:38

And he accepts me

22:42

with this condition. So

22:46

we're not going to ask what I want. But

22:50

I understand the

22:53

value of someone loving you when

22:56

you have a disability. I

23:05

love you so much. I love

23:07

you so much. I love who you are. I

23:12

love you no matter how you

23:14

are. Disabled, not disabled. It

23:16

doesn't matter. It's you I love. It's not

23:19

how you walk

23:21

or any of that. And...

23:27

Why do you lie to me? I

23:32

don't lie to you. I

23:34

lied to you about

23:36

two big things that all

23:39

happened at the same time. All

23:41

of those were overlapping at the same thing. And then I

23:44

continued to keep this secret and

23:46

lie about it. I don't believe you.

23:49

Because I was scared to death to

23:53

lose you, lose

23:55

my relationship with my daughter. You

24:00

know, you're asking him where he was at back then.

24:05

And maybe we ask the same

24:07

question to you, right? He didn't

24:09

tell about

24:12

the other woman because he didn't want to lose you.

24:15

And he didn't tell about the

24:17

sperm donation because he didn't want to lose

24:20

you. And you

24:22

accepted this relationship that

24:26

had ended but that had

24:28

existed in the shadow of your relationship

24:30

for two years because

24:32

you didn't want to lose him. Correct.

24:36

And it allowed you both

24:40

to create a whole life together based

24:46

on a fear. So you could say

24:48

based on a lie, but you can also say based

24:50

on a fear, they connect. And

24:55

based on a wish. It's a good perspective.

24:58

And based on a wish. Yes, based

25:00

on a wish. Based on a wish, you wanted

25:03

him and he wanted you. And

25:05

for that, you made compromises

25:07

with your conscience. And for

25:09

that matter, he made compromises

25:12

with his conscience. And

25:15

we can put the focus

25:17

on the lies.

25:19

We can put the focus on the fear, but

25:22

we can also put the focus on the

25:24

wish.

25:25

Your partner, she says,

25:27

I won't accept this and I won't

25:30

do that. But in fact, she knows

25:32

how to live with complexity more

25:34

than she gives herself credit and

25:36

more than you give her credit.

25:39

So it means that where

25:41

you constantly act from the place of the

25:43

child, who's you the child,

25:46

who's afraid that you're going to lose her,

25:49

that needs to be revisited. Because

25:56

she's not going, she didn't go once, she

25:58

didn't go twice, but not because. because she

26:01

accepted it, you betrayed and she accepted

26:04

it. It's because one can love

26:06

a person who also

26:08

lies about

26:12

certain things. I think

26:14

the number one thing at this moment is

26:17

to slow things down so that people

26:19

have time to absorb something. We

26:22

don't fully understand why this message

26:24

came now. Correct.

26:27

And in some way

26:29

you have been targeted

26:32

in order to reach you. It's like playing pool.

26:35

I agree. You know, for this ball to

26:37

be hit, it had to go through that one.

26:40

So I need to hear from you in relation

26:42

to those

26:43

two women.

26:52

Up to now in the session, the focus

26:55

was a lot about what

26:57

happened back then, how he lied.

27:00

But what's really shaking

27:02

up the whole foundation of this relationship

27:05

is that there is a parent, a

27:07

mother of twins

27:09

that has approached this

27:12

mother and she comes

27:14

with her own agenda.

27:16

And

27:17

at that moment, we begin to

27:19

shift from looking at the

27:22

depths of their relationship

27:25

to looking at the systemic ripple

27:27

effects that are occurring

27:29

as this other person has

27:32

inserted herself into

27:34

their lives and how they can create boundaries,

27:37

guardrails, a space

27:39

to breathe and slowly

27:41

to think together how they would like

27:44

to respond. But they

27:46

are being hijacked

27:47

into someone else's

27:50

story. When did those kids

27:52

find out? I

28:00

don't know exactly. Their

28:02

parents had the right to tell them at any point.

28:04

Yeah. Did they ever reach out to

28:06

you? Neither parents have

28:09

reached out to me in several

28:11

years. And when I say several, around

28:14

the same time that our relationship

28:16

had ended. And

28:18

why did it end? They wanted

28:20

to have a third child and they approached me

28:23

about donating again. And

28:25

I said, I can't do that. I'm

28:28

living my life with my family.

28:30

And they got angry with you for that? And

28:33

that was, yes, and that was the end of

28:35

the relationship.

28:36

A common theme that we're definitely running

28:39

into in

28:40

communication with this couple is

28:42

that selfishness drives a whole

28:45

lot of their decisions.

28:48

And what they want is what they

28:50

want and they will do what

28:54

they need to get that to happen. And

28:57

have you said right now

28:59

we are not communicating, we need to think? Can

29:02

you put some gates

29:05

here? At first it was coming

29:07

in so fast. It was rapid fire.

29:10

And even

29:12

in the point where as it's coming

29:14

in and

29:17

then we're discussing

29:19

it and talking about it and confronting

29:21

it and being confronted by it,

29:25

the things are being said like,

29:28

don't have him call me. I

29:31

know you'll do the right thing to me. Are

29:33

you being ambushed? Completely.

29:35

Yes. I shared the

29:38

communication with my therapist

29:40

and her words were, I have a huge

29:43

problem with this. I recommend

29:45

that you seize contact.

29:48

And I did. And it felt so good.

29:51

And now? No

29:53

contact? I

29:55

received a communication

29:58

last night at about midnight. saying

30:00

I'm preparation for have you

30:03

blocked me and My

30:07

instinct are two things one don't

30:10

respond my other instinct is to

30:12

say Listen back

30:14

off We are in the middle of

30:17

trying to focus on our relationship

30:19

and our family dynamic and from

30:22

here on out Please communicate with me as

30:24

we do not know the future of our

30:26

relationship at this stage

30:30

When you are ambushed like this Probably

30:33

the most important thing is for you to say very

30:36

very little about where you're at. Okay

30:40

You're being Bombarded with

30:42

urgency by somebody

30:44

whose motives and needs are not

30:47

clear That is blurring your

30:49

vision that is not allowing you

30:51

to even finish a breath before you need to

30:53

catch the next one and

30:55

You need time and

30:57

you need time together To

31:00

think and then you will

31:02

see what makes sense to you

31:05

You need to unite you want to be

31:08

together One thing you know who clearly

31:10

is that you want your relationship to stay

31:12

you deal with

31:14

the messes and the hurts and the angers

31:17

and but there is another question

31:19

here and not just because you

31:21

are disabled and not just because

31:23

you feel weakened and not but because

31:27

There is a lot of richness to the

31:29

life that you build and You

31:32

don't want that to be taken from your daughter

31:35

either and so you need Quiet.

31:38

Yes You know, you don't

31:41

owe these people anything about

31:43

your personal Meandering's okay

31:46

and your inner relationship tribulations

31:50

Nothing We

31:53

thought we were buying time by

31:56

no you buy time by just

31:58

seeing adding drama

31:59

Nothing. They will see you read the

32:02

message. I

32:04

agree with what you're saying and it's giving

32:06

me some clarity. I think that

32:09

the word ambush really

32:11

resonated with me and helped

32:13

me look at it as a

32:16

attack more than a cry

32:19

for help, which I was getting

32:21

confused by. Help

32:23

is asked differently.

32:25

So many boundaries have been broken. Pump

32:28

the brakes. Let's slow down as something

32:32

that I know I've been saying this throughout. But

32:34

you answer. The way you answer it,

32:37

you reveal every crack through which

32:39

somebody who wants to

32:41

manipulate. Yes. So

32:45

here is what happens sometimes when

32:48

people have held secrets, is

32:51

that you kind of don't know

32:53

what is privacy.

32:55

You go from secrecy

32:57

to transparency. There's

32:59

nothing wrong in what you said. It's

33:02

just that

33:03

if there's a person that maybe you don't

33:05

want to trust, it's this person. Yes,

33:08

but don't share, please. So don't share

33:10

much because

33:12

there's something also

33:14

that doesn't square with me in the motives

33:17

from on the other side. What is somebody

33:20

wanting money? Is somebody who,

33:22

you know, what made them suddenly think

33:25

you should be involved? It's going to

33:27

sound so stupid. Yeah. Social

33:29

media.

33:31

Tell me more. I've

33:34

learned that my

33:36

Instagram account of

33:40

the adventures and travels and

33:42

fun and lifestyle that we've

33:44

lived has been shared

33:47

with those children and told

33:49

that they were not included. That

33:56

their disappointment in not being invited

33:59

or included in birthdays,

34:01

New Year's Eve parties or your general...

34:04

They're continually let down. By

34:07

not being included in your

34:09

life adventures. Yeah, this is what the mother

34:11

is texting me. And I'm like, there is no...

34:13

So this is what the mother has told the kids. Yes.

34:17

She's like, you have continually

34:20

let them down by them not

34:22

being included in all of... And she

34:24

listed things that are on my Instagram

34:27

account. And I'm like,

34:29

you just weaponized my Instagram

34:31

account to hurt your own children.

34:34

It's sick. No,

34:36

I'm like, I keep thinking, what's

34:38

the next piece? This is why... Because

34:41

it's so bonkers, right? The onion

34:43

keeps peeling. This is why I was

34:45

like, of all people, why

34:48

them? We

34:51

saw it. I saw the writing on the

34:53

wall. I was like, of all people,

34:57

why them? And

35:02

that is probably a bigger problem

35:04

than I'm admitting. If

35:07

it was somebody who I had

35:10

deep affection for and I

35:12

found out, I may not feel

35:15

so disturbed. But

35:18

the fact that half of his

35:20

half bio kids are being

35:23

taunted by our lifestyle makes

35:27

me fiercely angry. And

35:31

they're now pretending...

35:35

They're giving this idea that they have a deadbeat

35:37

dad and that was never his role. You

35:40

saying that makes a big difference too.

35:43

If it

35:45

was somebody else, I

35:48

would have had a different heart to it. You're not just

35:50

being cold and callous and possessive.

35:53

I hear you. But then get more and more

35:55

pissed at them.

35:56

And

35:59

not only at him.

36:00

He has a share, but I think you're

36:02

being really...

36:04

You're being played by somebody

36:06

is what it feels like to me. Am I being played

36:08

by both? You know, I think...

36:11

That's my thing. Am I being played by them and

36:13

him? Like, it's confusing.

36:16

Well, him, you want to be... My heart says

36:18

no. My heart says he's not playing

36:20

me. My heart says he is a

36:22

human being who messes up. I

36:24

don't want to be stupid. So then... Keep

36:27

my eyes open. Yes, don't be naive

36:29

and keep your eyes open. You

36:32

know, you're not going to be detectives, but you

36:35

definitely are

36:37

played by not just

36:39

you. I'm going to be very

36:41

clear. You don't just need therapy advice. You

36:43

need legal advice. Okay.

36:47

So there is a piece of it that is just legal. Then

36:50

there is your decision.

36:53

We will open ourselves to this family

36:55

or not. Then there is, you

36:57

know, you don't want to punish the kids for the foolishness

37:00

of the parents. Then there is probably that

37:02

part of it too, because they're being played.

37:04

Yes. And we

37:07

look at the situation and we look

37:09

at these children and we're like, oh, she continues

37:12

to say, like, I want to go and give them a hug. Like,

37:15

we want to go and do something to help

37:17

protect them or help them not

37:19

feel this abandonment. And it's

37:22

like, hold on a second. I didn't abandon

37:24

them. I didn't

37:27

go ahead and just pull the rug out from

37:30

under them and like, hey,

37:32

I don't want you. It's

37:35

complicated and it's hard because...

37:39

Because the story is being created. Yeah. But

37:42

I don't want involvement right now. I don't

37:44

think it's healthy for me.

37:46

I don't feel the same way for him.

37:50

If these children want

37:52

to connect with him once in

37:54

a while, I

37:56

don't want him to turn

37:58

his back to them. I've

38:00

done a lot of reading. You said that to him. Yes.

38:04

They're people. And

38:08

I think that your ignorance

38:11

in this decision is this is

38:14

you taking responsibility and you're

38:17

going to have to figure out how to do it

38:19

in a way that doesn't disrupt

38:22

your daughter's

38:24

life.

38:25

And then you will see

38:27

what makes sense to you. Yes,

38:31

you have heart and you don't want these children

38:33

to feel like

38:35

they're just

38:36

an outcome of petri dishes. But

38:39

at the same time, you also want to be very

38:41

clear that the same way that there was

38:43

a magical thinking going on here, there has been

38:46

magical thinking going on there. This

38:48

is the life you were meant to live. Look

38:50

what your little sister is doing.

38:53

Your dad this, your dad that.

38:56

And you meant to do something nice. You

38:58

were naive a little bit. You

39:01

should have to take responsibility

39:03

for the life, but

39:05

it shouldn't have to come and haunt you like this. In

39:09

his disclosing of the story to me,

39:11

he said when

39:13

he walked away from the dinner of them being so

39:16

excited, like presenting this as, wouldn't

39:18

this be wonderful? You can do this for

39:20

us. You can do it.

39:23

So he said yes. And when he walked

39:25

away, he was like, fuck.

39:27

I just said, yes, I can't back out on this

39:29

now. I try to do what I say. That's

39:32

how I try to live my life. If I'm going to, if I

39:34

say I'm going to do it, I want to do it. And

39:36

then I said, yeah, all right. Like,

39:38

and they pitched me and yeah,

39:42

yeah, this is something I can do. But

39:45

I can say that especially

39:48

when we got pregnant,

39:51

I was uneasy about the situation

39:54

to say the least. I was like, I

39:57

mean, when I say uneasy, it more translated

39:59

into full.

39:59

Look, like this

40:03

isn't gonna be good. And

40:05

so with this, when

40:08

we're about to start our family and

40:11

have our daughter, something

40:14

you had said to me resonated

40:16

and I understood clearly, which

40:19

was when you said the

40:21

worst thing that could happen is someone knock on

40:23

the door

40:25

with your children,

40:29

I knew what it was. The table was set,

40:31

it was right there. It was like, if I reveal

40:33

this, it's done. I remember saying that being

40:36

like, yeah, that would be really,

40:38

really awful. And like, you don't have any

40:40

kids, do you? Nope.

40:44

That was my answer. I lied, I actively

40:47

lied

40:48

about this. And now when I

40:50

say this about that

40:52

you said this, I

40:55

knew what the expectation was. In

40:57

these last six

40:59

weeks since this bomb has been dropped

41:02

into our family, I'm

41:05

the one who actively lied about this. I'm

41:08

the one who has been covering

41:10

this up. I'm the one who made the decision and said

41:12

yes to donate to

41:15

this couple.

41:16

I don't have the right to say, because

41:18

you said this, I was able to

41:20

lie to you. That's bullshit. I

41:23

did understand what the situation was

41:25

and that added to my incentive

41:27

to lie. That's

41:31

why I feel tricked. And that's

41:33

why you feel tricked. And I feel-

41:37

Because you knew how I felt. I feel horrible

41:41

about lying to you. I

41:44

feel horrible about not

41:46

telling you that I

41:48

did this, that I donated to this couple.

41:53

It hurts me to see

41:55

how destroyed you are over

41:57

this. And that's not me

41:59

asking. you not to be destroyed or not to be emotional

42:02

or not to be you need to feel everything you're feeling

42:04

because I

42:07

lied to you over

42:10

two really big things at

42:17

essentially the start of our relationship

42:21

and I'm

42:23

so sorry I'm so sorry that

42:27

I going

42:29

back that I even said yes and did

42:32

this I'm

42:35

so sorry that I kept it from

42:37

you and I'm so sorry that I took away

42:40

your agency of making decisions

42:43

for your life of how you wanted it to go

42:46

long term I love you so

42:49

much I don't

42:54

lie to you anymore I'm not gonna

42:56

lie to you anymore if this is taught

43:01

us anything I'm fucking done lying it

43:04

came down to a Christmas present going under the tree

43:07

and she was like oh did that package arrived yet

43:09

well I had already wrapped it up and put it under the

43:11

tree I said I can't lie no more lies anymore your

43:14

package this is what's in it this is under the

43:16

tree I keep saying no more lies like

43:19

I don't want to

43:20

but it's gonna take one little piece to

43:23

add to it this

43:26

is very very moving part

43:30

of why you lied if

43:32

I understood something it's

43:35

about the power of women you

43:39

didn't just lie I mean

43:42

yes of course you like but there's

43:44

something about the power of women there's a very

43:47

strong similarity between how you

43:49

took her sentences and they

43:52

shaped you

43:53

like you took the sentence of the the other

43:55

two women who said we're gonna do

43:58

it and you and they shaped

45:23

to

46:00

your therapy, don't

46:02

focus only on lying and on secrets.

46:05

They're the consequence. They're wrapped

46:10

into something that is more pernicious

46:13

and deeper. She's

46:16

so right. That

46:19

carries a lot of wisdom. Yes. Thank

46:22

you for that. Especially

46:25

if you're identifying your sister, your mother,

46:27

you lose your voice. That makes

46:39

you think

46:41

that he can

46:43

be cunning. Yes. But

46:46

the reason that you couldn't say no

46:48

and that you couldn't go back on your word is

46:51

partly because of

46:53

there's something about women and their

46:55

power and then they're putting

46:58

you in savior roles. You're

47:01

welcome.

47:03

May I ask something? How many

47:05

boys in the family? In my

47:07

family, two. And who was

47:10

the chosen one by mom? Me.

47:13

So you find yourself in a bit

47:15

of what my friend

47:18

and colleague, Terry Reel, calls the unholy

47:20

triangle.

47:21

It is the son who is very

47:24

close to his helpless

47:26

mother. Oh, totally.

47:29

In the presence of an either abusive

47:31

or absent father. He

47:34

had a lot of people to make happy. So

47:39

it gives you at the

47:41

same time a sense that you are very powerful

47:44

because you're a savior but you're also powerless

47:47

because you see the distress of the

47:50

woman that you need to. And

47:54

that you see as flattery. So

47:56

if we go in flattery direction, we may trivialize

47:59

it and make it

47:59

It's a consequence, but it's

48:02

not the root and it comes

48:04

off to me as ego and arrogant But

48:07

there's so much more under it. That's right.

48:09

That is so

48:12

Not toxic So

48:14

I'm glad that you opened

48:16

my eyes to that because I'm

48:18

not walking out of the door with somebody who

48:24

Has these attributes that I was worried

48:26

were were really overtaking

48:28

his decisions Obviously

48:31

the decisions had consequences, but

48:33

if we could if he can understand the root of it

48:35

then I think he did Deserve to understand

48:38

it because otherwise this focus is more I

48:40

couldn't find the right time to speak I agree,

48:43

which is there but it's not the full story.

48:45

There's something about How

48:47

you heard her first statement? So

48:50

it wasn't just that I want to lose her It's just

48:53

the resolve with which she said it the power

48:56

it had over you all of these things That

48:58

combination of being the savior of being

49:00

the

49:01

the one who and it is women

49:04

Yeah Simmer the temperature

49:06

of what we're going through down together as

49:09

well because I can see his struggle now,

49:11

which I couldn't before

49:12

So I appreciate that

49:14

insight. I Got

49:16

some digging to do you're gonna be

49:18

okay

49:28

Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced

49:30

by Magnificent Noise We're part of the

49:32

Vox Media podcast network in

49:34

partnership with New York Magazine and the cut Our

49:37

production staff includes Eric Newsom Eva

49:39

Walsh over Destry Sibley here What

49:42

take a ton of Sabrina Farhi Eleanor

49:44

Kagan Kristen Muller and

49:47

Julia Matt original music

49:49

an additional production by Paul Schneider

49:52

and the executive producers of where should we

49:54

begin our Esther Perel and Jesse

49:56

Baker

49:58

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton,

50:01

Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

50:03

Jack Zoll.