0:00

I'm Ayesha Roscoe and this is the Sunday

0:02

Story. A warning before we get

0:04

started, this episode contains mentions

0:07

of suicide. In

0:09

recent years, high-profile cases of

0:11

police brutality across the U.S.

0:14

have brought increased attention and

0:16

scrutiny to police misconduct and

0:18

use of force incidents. When

0:21

something happens, the police often say

0:23

we're investigating. But what's

0:26

really being done, or not done,

0:28

to ensure police are held accountable

0:30

for their actions? In

0:32

2021, a team of reporters

0:34

from KQED partnered with NPR

0:37

to take a closer look

0:39

at the process for how

0:41

police police themselves. They

0:43

made a podcast called On Our

0:45

Watch, and it was focused on

0:48

select cases of police misconduct in

0:50

California. Today I'm speaking with criminal

0:52

justice reporter Suki Lewis, the

0:54

host of On Our Watch. She

0:56

and her team have continued

0:58

to uncover thousands of previously

1:00

sealed internal affairs law enforcement

1:02

records as part of the

1:04

multi-newsroom California reporting project. Suki

1:06

tells me about the reporting

1:09

behind the new season of

1:11

her show. In season

1:13

two, the show digs into recent

1:15

incidents at one of the most

1:17

dangerous prisons in California. Our

1:20

conversation about the stories she found

1:22

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1:24

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1:27

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1:29

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2:56

criminal justice reporter Suki Lewis, host

2:59

of the KQED podcast on our

3:01

watch. Suki, welcome

3:03

to the program. Thanks so much for having me on. Before

3:07

we get into the reporting for this

3:09

season of On Our Watch, talk to me about

3:11

the California Reporting Project. You

3:14

co-founded that in 2018, right? Yeah.

3:18

So in 2018, the state

3:20

here in California passed a new law that

3:22

would open up internal police

3:26

records, you know, for the first

3:28

time, basically, we'd get to see

3:30

inside this black box of police

3:32

internal affairs. And that law was

3:34

called the right to know act.

3:37

And it affected certain categories of

3:39

internal records, including deadly use of

3:41

force incidents, serious use of

3:44

force incidents, which means, um, you

3:46

know, when somebody gets really badly

3:48

injured by police and

3:50

dishonesty and sexual assault

3:52

or sexual misconduct on duty by

3:55

police officers. This law gave

3:57

you access to the paper

3:59

trail. that open the

4:01

window to these police departments and

4:03

how they run, because there's always

4:06

a paper trail, right? Yes,

4:08

and for years here in California, it

4:10

was very secretive. You couldn't see that

4:12

paper trail. So some states like Florida

4:14

have had open records laws for a

4:16

long time, but here in California, because

4:18

of the power of the police unions,

4:21

you just could never know. You could

4:23

never know if somebody was disciplined or

4:25

fired or like what had happened. And

4:27

so we teamed up with a group

4:29

of different news organizations across the state

4:32

to file blanket public records

4:34

requests at all 700

4:36

law enforcement agencies across the

4:39

state to start understanding how

4:41

these systems work, what happens

4:43

when serious police shooting

4:45

happens, what happens when you file

4:47

a complaint against a police officer

4:50

for excessive force. And they say,

4:52

we're going to investigate. How does

4:54

a deadly use of force investigation

4:56

unfold? So season one

4:58

of On Our Watch came directly

5:00

out of this reporting. You

5:03

examined select misconduct cases

5:05

and kind of the shadowy

5:07

world of police discipline.

5:10

So what were some of the

5:12

big lessons or takeaways from your

5:14

reporting on season one? I think

5:16

one of our biggest findings was

5:18

that those promises that we have

5:20

been made in the public, that

5:22

we're investigating, people will be held

5:24

accountable, are really based

5:28

on this false assumption that

5:30

its purpose is to provide

5:32

accountability. And that's actually not

5:34

its purpose. It's a risk management tool,

5:36

basically like HR. If

5:39

you're an employee and you make a

5:41

complaint to HR, their goal

5:43

isn't necessarily to hold

5:46

the person you made a complaint about

5:48

to justice. Their goal is to protect

5:50

the company from liability. That's

5:52

what we really found, especially in a

5:55

secretive system with internal affairs and the

5:57

world of policing. It was much more

5:59

about producing. protecting the police department

6:01

and the city from liability. So

6:04

sometimes that would mean accountability.

6:07

Sometimes that would mean an officer gets fired or

6:09

disciplined because that's what would protect the city. But

6:11

that was not actually the goal or

6:13

the purpose of this institution or

6:16

the system. This

6:18

season you focused on

6:20

correctional facilities, prisons. How

6:23

did you decide on that? We decided

6:25

to turn to the world of

6:27

correctional facilities in California

6:29

because the California Department of Corrections

6:32

and Rehabilitation is actually the largest

6:34

employer of peace officers in the

6:36

state. And while

6:38

we had gotten some insight into how

6:41

police departments were functioning and how these internal

6:43

affairs systems were working in police departments,

6:45

the world of corrections is even

6:48

more of a closed system. I

6:50

mean, literally behind walls, right? So

6:53

getting behind those walls, even if it was

6:55

just through the paper trail, as you say,

6:58

seemed like a really important thing

7:00

to do and to understand

7:03

how these prisons,

7:05

how these small cities work

7:07

and how accountability

7:10

works in a system where

7:12

often the people who are

7:14

making complaints are incarcerated and

7:16

have even less power than

7:19

a civilian on the street. How

7:21

did you land on the prison

7:23

that you focused on? So we

7:26

ended up focusing on a prison known

7:28

as New Folsom or California State Prison

7:30

Sacramento. And that's because as

7:32

we were analyzing data and records from

7:35

prisons all across the state, there

7:37

was this pattern that kind of jumped off the page at

7:39

us. And for

7:42

this category of serious use of force incidents,

7:44

that's when an officer uses deadly force

7:47

or seriously injures somebody, there were

7:49

three times as many of those

7:51

types of incidents at this one

7:53

prison than any other prison in the

7:55

state. And this just kind of raised our alarm bells.

7:58

We were like, you know, what is going on? on

8:00

at this prison. Why is such

8:02

an anomaly in the data? Let's look

8:05

closer. We took our findings

8:07

to some attorneys who work in this

8:09

space. And these attorneys,

8:11

they were also surprised, but they

8:13

said this prison has been a

8:15

known problem. They

8:19

said, did you know about the

8:21

whistleblowers that died there? There

8:24

are these two whistleblowers that died

8:26

there in the last year. And

8:28

those two whistleblowers' names were correctional

8:30

officer Valentino Rodriguez and

8:33

Sergeant Kevin Steele. Officer

8:35

Valentino Rodriguez, his death was

8:37

found to be accidental overdose

8:39

due to fentanyl. And

8:42

the second officer, Sergeant Kevin Steele,

8:44

who died about 10 months later,

8:46

died by suicide. So

8:48

within the space of a year, two whistleblowers

8:52

at this prison had died. I mean, I

8:54

think that's going to stop anybody in their

8:56

tracks. What did you think when you first

8:58

heard that? Your first thought

9:01

goes to, is there foul play? Is someone retaliating

9:04

against these whistleblowers? And

9:06

so we started doing what we

9:08

as investigative journalists do. My

9:11

colleague Julie Small reached out to the

9:13

family of Valentino Rodriguez. We both started

9:15

filing public records requests for the death

9:17

investigations of each of these men to

9:20

try and understand what had happened to

9:22

them, and if there was anything in

9:24

those death investigations that pointed back to

9:26

the prison or to anything

9:29

else that we needed to uncover. Ultimately,

9:34

we did not find any evidence

9:36

of foul play in either case.

9:39

But we learned a lot more about

9:41

what they had each been uncovering before

9:43

they died. Coming

9:46

up after the break, Suki and her team

9:48

followed the trail of evidence left by

9:50

correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez

9:53

and Sergeant Kevin Steele after their death.

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better living. Available to buy now

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wherever books are sold. We're

10:57

back with a Sunday story. Suki,

11:00

once you heard about the two

11:02

whistleblowers who'd worked at the same prison,

11:04

New Folsom, you started

11:06

retracing the events before their

11:08

deaths. How did you go

11:10

about that? So one

11:14

person who ended up being a really

11:16

key source for us was the father

11:18

of correctional officer Valentino Rodriguez,

11:21

who has the same name. So his name is Valentino

11:24

Rodriguez Sr. And

11:26

he ended up being really central to

11:28

our story. My colleague Julie reached out

11:30

to him and at first he was

11:33

really, you know, cautious. I just want

11:35

this to work both ways. Right.

11:38

Right. Okay. I need to know what you're

11:41

doing. Okay. That's all I

11:43

ever asked. Nobody even knows we're having

11:45

these meetings other than my wife. Right.

11:49

When we met him, Val Sr.

11:51

was really clearly,

11:53

you know, still in the midst of the

11:55

grieving process. And I think part of that

11:57

process for him was trying understand,

12:01

you know, what led to his son's

12:03

passing. I just can't turn my back on

12:05

my son, you know what I mean? I

12:09

owe that to him. I'm going to go

12:12

as far as I can. And in

12:15

the end, if nothing's, this is nothing I tried,

12:17

right? I'll find my answers when

12:21

my time comes. So he

12:23

started to share with us the evidence

12:25

that he had been gathering, including

12:27

his son's phone. What did

12:30

you learn about who Valentino

12:32

Rodriguez was, how

12:35

he was as a person, and

12:38

this journey that he was on? It

12:41

was really incredible. We learned a lot

12:43

about him. He was a

12:45

really kind of funny, goofy guy. One

12:48

of the, you know, things that we

12:51

found on his phone was this video

12:53

of him in the Investigative Services Unit

12:55

offices inside this prison. It's one of

12:57

the most dangerous prisons in the state

12:59

of California. And he

13:01

sets up the camera, and then he steps

13:03

back, and then he starts dancing.

13:06

And he's practicing. He's learning the

13:08

cumbia, because he's about to get

13:10

married, until he's practicing the cumbia

13:13

in this, you know, in this

13:15

office. And I

13:18

just loved kind of coming across these little artifacts of

13:20

who this person was. He also

13:22

had a dog named Daisy that he

13:24

loved and would sing to his dog.

13:27

Super dog, super

13:29

dog. That's

13:31

the song about Daisy, the super dog. One

13:34

day there was a dog named Daisy, and she was

13:36

super lazy. And he really

13:38

worked hard at the prison. Like,

13:42

he was really wanted to get into this

13:44

Investigative Unit. It was a big career opportunity

13:46

for him. But

13:48

the unit itself, once he joined, they

13:50

didn't really think he had earned the

13:52

right to be there. So when

13:55

he had his first day there, he

13:57

had come over after. I

14:02

asked him, how was your first day? And

14:05

he goes, it's a bunch of older guys that have

14:07

been there. He called them OGs. I

14:11

said, well, how'd it go? He goes, he asked, who

14:13

the, who the are you? You know, this first

14:15

day and I just, it's

14:18

prison talk I guess. You know,

14:20

they had a nickname for him called Half

14:22

Patch to indicate like he wasn't a full

14:24

member of the team and he didn't quite

14:26

deserve to be there yet. And

14:29

you can see in his phone,

14:31

you know, he is

14:34

trying really hard to fit in with this

14:36

group of guys and they kind of needle

14:40

him and call him names,

14:42

like just really kind of

14:44

harassing behavior, you know, from

14:46

work colleagues. You can see

14:48

that it really does begin to take

14:50

a toll on Valentino and he starts

14:52

to struggle with his mental health.

14:55

So he actually has a breakdown

14:57

at work one day and

15:00

shares with the chief

15:02

deputy warden that he is going through

15:04

some really difficult things. And

15:08

she tells him, okay, you should go out on

15:10

stress leave. And so

15:12

he takes some time off work

15:14

from the prison. But even

15:16

once he leaves the prison, he really

15:19

can't leave it all

15:21

the way. Like he's still mentally there

15:23

and still kind of struggling with the

15:26

effects of his time there. I remember

15:28

sitting on the couch with him and

15:31

him saying, this is Mimi Rodriguez, Valentino's

15:33

wife. I remember this very clearly. He

15:35

said, this is my identity. He's

15:37

like, I feel like I've given up on everything. I

15:40

feel like I give up on my job. He

15:42

wasn't at the prison physically, but mentally he

15:44

was still there. He was still

15:46

talking to people from the prison. He was still reaching out

15:48

to people from the prison or reaching out

15:51

to him, telling him what was going on within the prison. He

15:53

had not at all let that go. Reading

15:57

through his text messages, you can see it's

15:59

not like he- he sets out to become

16:01

a whistleblower. It's just eating away at him

16:03

and he can't quite let it go. He

16:05

can't quite turn away from what he's seen

16:07

in the prison. And so

16:10

six days before his death, he ends up

16:12

going in to talk to the warden and

16:14

he tells him about the harassment that

16:17

he experienced personally and also different kinds

16:19

of misconduct that he witnessed, including

16:22

allegations that other officers in the

16:24

unit that he worked in were

16:26

involved in planting drugs and weapons

16:28

on incarcerated people. And

16:30

that's really important because the unit that he worked

16:33

in is kind of like the police force for

16:35

the prison. They have this very special role. And

16:38

so if they're dirty, that could taint

16:40

criminal cases that stem from the investigations

16:42

they do. And the officers

16:44

in this unit are supposed to be held

16:46

to a higher standard because they have this

16:48

higher level of responsibility in the prison than

16:50

other officers do. So

16:53

after he makes this report, the

16:55

word eventually gets out that he's talked.

16:59

And he was really nervous about that happening. So

17:01

he was nervous about anybody coming to the house.

17:04

At one point he had put things at

17:06

the door. So if someone

17:08

opened it, you can hear the door open. He

17:11

also, like he had a gun and he would sleep with

17:13

it just to make sure. And I'm

17:15

like, who's coming? And

17:17

I would ask him like, is everything okay? You

17:19

know, who are you nervous about coming?

17:22

What is going on? It's

17:24

hard to, it's

17:28

hard to see the person you love turn

17:30

into something different. The

17:34

night that he died, one of the last text messages you

17:37

can see he sent to his wife was, it's

17:40

out now that I told on the team. And

17:43

then she comes home to find him slumped over in the

17:45

bathroom and no longer breathing. I

17:47

mean, it's so horrible. Who

17:52

is the other with the other? blower.

18:00

Tell me about him. So

18:03

the other whistleblower, his name

18:05

is Sergeant Kevin

18:07

Steele. He had worked

18:09

for the California Department of Corrections for

18:12

about 20 years at

18:14

this point. He's a military

18:16

veteran, just this real kind

18:18

of straight arrow guy. Had a very

18:21

kind of rigorous sense of

18:23

morality, a very rigorous sense of

18:25

right and wrong. He's

18:27

seen a lot and been through

18:29

a lot and was beginning to

18:31

come to this point of disillusionment

18:34

with these systems that he had

18:36

been promised were going to affect

18:38

change and provide accountability. And it's

18:40

in this environment that

18:42

his friend Valentino Rodriguez

18:45

passes away. And

18:54

so I think for Steele at this

18:56

point, Valentino's death was kind of like

18:58

the last straw for him. He felt

19:01

like all these things he's seen over the

19:03

years and tried to report at the chain

19:05

had not been properly addressed. And

19:07

then there was this kind of moral failing in

19:09

response to the death of an officer and

19:11

how they treated Valentino's family

19:14

after his death. And

19:16

so Steele decides to make his last stand

19:18

basically. And what he does is he writes

19:21

up a memo to the warden detailing

19:23

the list of failings as he sees

19:25

it. Times where the institution failed to

19:27

keep its promises to the public and

19:29

times where it failed to keep people

19:31

safe and times where it failed to protect

19:34

officers from harassment and things like that.

19:37

And so he writes up this memo and sends it

19:39

off to the warden. And after

19:41

that he actually leaves California. He moves

19:43

to Missouri and it seems like his

19:46

plan was to drop this

19:48

bomb and then ride off into the sunset.

19:51

He was planning to retire at the end of the

19:53

year and just kind of be done

19:55

with the prison and with his whole institution. But

19:58

much like we saw with Valentino, Even

20:00

though Sergeant Kevin Steele is out

20:02

of the prison and even miles

20:05

and miles away, he's still trapped

20:07

there mentally. And

20:09

at one point, about eight months

20:12

after he's left the state, things

20:14

reach ahead for him. And

20:17

one day, Steele goes into the

20:19

shed on his property in Missouri,

20:21

and he doesn't come out again. I

20:29

mean, these are, you know, two extremely

20:33

tragic losses. But

20:37

for both of these whistleblowers,

20:39

they left behind evidence for

20:41

you to understand new fulsome,

20:43

right? The failures

20:45

that happened there. Like,

20:47

for Valentino, you had

20:49

his phone, and

20:51

Steele wrote a memo that

20:53

talked about his concerns about use

20:56

of force incidents going back years.

21:00

What did you find out when you started looking

21:02

into those? So

21:05

one of the things that was really incredible about

21:07

this story is the evidence that was left behind.

21:11

Steele's memo kind of gave us this

21:13

key to understanding what he saw was

21:15

wrong with these incidents, which

21:18

was that the injuries that people

21:20

were showing up in the hospital

21:22

with, incarcerated people, were not matching

21:24

the reports. So we

21:26

started kind of looking at our incident reports

21:28

kind of through this lens that he had

21:31

left for us, and

21:33

seeing how repeatedly

21:36

these incident reports had this kind of

21:38

pattern to them almost. And

21:41

a lot of these incidents that

21:43

appeared very troubling, you know, occurred

21:45

in areas where there was no

21:47

camera coverage. And

21:49

the use of force described often

21:51

did not, you know, at

21:54

all make sense on how they got injured. So

21:56

it would be something like, I think one of

21:58

them was like, we guided them. man to

22:00

the floor and they

22:02

ended up with internal bleeding and

22:05

broken ribs. And you're like, okay,

22:07

how does that even make

22:09

that make sense, right? And

22:12

what we saw over and over again in

22:14

these cases is that they didn't result in

22:16

discipline for officers. One

22:18

theme that we just kind of ran

22:21

into over and over again is the

22:23

code of silence. And

22:25

it's basically an agreement, unspoken

22:27

agreement to never tell on

22:29

each other. And

22:32

this is something that we've seen in policing

22:34

as well with the thin blue line. But

22:36

I would say it's even stronger in a

22:38

prison context. And because

22:41

there isn't that thing of

22:43

a bystander who can kind

22:45

of intercede or be an

22:47

outside witness to events,

22:49

that code of silence is just

22:51

a really, really thick wall to

22:53

break. And so many

22:56

people that we talk to, we talk to

22:58

correctional officers for this story, many of whom

23:00

did not want to go on the record

23:02

because they fear retaliation. Even retired

23:04

officers who still feel like

23:07

potentially the agency could come

23:09

after them for their pensions if they

23:11

talk. There is no real

23:13

incentive to do so. Like even

23:16

institutionally, you will be

23:18

reassigned. You will not be

23:20

rewarded basically for reporting things

23:22

like that. You're

23:28

confirming this culture of

23:30

silence that both Steele

23:32

and Val experience and

23:34

try to disrupt. What

23:37

did you ultimately end up finding

23:39

out about their deaths? So

23:42

again, we did not find there was

23:44

any evidence of foul play. But

23:47

I feel like our reporting really does

23:49

clearly show that they were victims. They

23:52

were victims of this system and

23:54

they were victims of this code of silence

23:57

and that fear and the kind

23:59

of cycle. social trauma that

24:01

they experienced by having to

24:04

go against this machine

24:07

in order to try and do what

24:09

they felt was the right thing really

24:12

contributed to their deaths and

24:14

contributed to the decline of their mental health

24:17

and led them to their end. And

24:21

this was, in fact, a finding that was

24:23

made after their deaths. Their widows filed

24:26

basically workers' compensation claims with the state

24:28

to get their death benefits. And

24:31

during that process, they

24:33

found that these deaths were

24:35

industrial. These deaths were related

24:38

to their jobs and their

24:40

work as correction officers for the state

24:42

of California. Your

24:48

sources included law enforcement,

24:50

former law enforcement, incarcerated

24:53

people. They're their family members.

24:55

Like, what are the particular

24:57

challenges of reporting

24:59

in and about a prison?

25:02

Like, how does it require a

25:04

different approach, especially when you're dealing

25:06

with people who likely have dealt

25:09

with some very traumatic things? Yeah,

25:12

there are a lot of different challenges. I think,

25:14

you know, in terms of

25:16

bringing correctional officers in and

25:19

just feeling like they could speak

25:21

to us and trust us, it

25:23

was a lot of conversations about

25:25

confidentiality, how we could keep them

25:28

protected, and also that we were

25:30

trying to tell a deep nuanced

25:32

story that wasn't just a story

25:35

about how correctional officers always are

25:37

using excessive force or something like

25:39

that. It was this story

25:42

that we had found, which was very

25:44

complicated, and it was about the mental

25:46

impacts of working inside a prison on

25:49

officers and that they experienced

25:51

some of the same difficult things

25:53

that incarcerated people experience. And

25:56

then for the incarcerated

25:58

people that we spoke to, there was also

26:00

a lot of different factors to consider. You

26:02

know, for one thing, a lot of the

26:04

phone conversations, or all the phone conversations that

26:07

we had are recorded. So

26:09

you know that you are being

26:11

listened in on and that what

26:13

they say could have impacts

26:16

for their lives. Some people I

26:18

talked to, been in prison for years,

26:21

have kind of a vague idea about what

26:23

a podcast is, but not everybody does, you

26:26

know? So just kind of walking people through

26:28

like what this means,

26:30

what their participation means, what going on their

26:32

record means and stuff like that. So they

26:34

can be informed and make

26:37

informed decisions about participating or

26:39

not. And then, you know, in

26:42

terms of people who have been

26:44

dealing with trauma, you know, we talked to

26:46

Val Sr., obviously, who

26:49

was kind of in the throes

26:52

of his own grieving process. We

26:54

talked to the family of Sergeant

26:57

Kevin Steele, as

26:59

well, his brother who agreed to go on

27:01

the record with us. And

27:03

we talked to Mimi, Valentino

27:05

Rodriguez's wife. And I think,

27:08

you know, just in terms of having a

27:11

trauma informed approach as much as

27:13

possible, a lot of it was

27:15

about giving them the power, not

27:17

trying to be extractive or just

27:19

take their story and see how it

27:21

fit in with our narrative, but to hold

27:23

space for them to talk about what

27:26

they had gone through. And

27:28

also the power to be

27:30

like, okay, if you don't feel like you

27:32

said that right, or if you want to

27:34

rethink that, like, this is how you're gonna

27:36

be portrayed in the story. This is the

27:38

context in which your story is gonna be

27:40

used. Are you comfortable with that? And saying,

27:42

if you're not, you can take it back

27:44

any time. And so it was a lot

27:46

more conversation than I think you would normally

27:48

have of going back to sources and playing

27:50

pieces of tape for them and that kind of

27:52

thing. But it really felt like the

27:55

responsible thing to do. So there were no

27:57

surprises when the podcast came out. And so...

28:00

We could also be sure that we

28:02

were being accurate and that we were

28:04

accurately representing the experience of our primary

28:06

sources. You

28:10

know, people will say sunlight is the

28:13

best disinfectant. Is it making

28:15

a difference? Is the

28:17

reporting, the transparency, how

28:21

is it impacting these presence?

28:25

I think it's still too soon to

28:27

say and it's also kind of the next

28:29

step. I feel like this is the first

28:31

step is saying like, look, this is what's

28:34

happening. And then the next

28:36

step is actually beyond our

28:38

power as journalists. I feel like

28:40

it's in the hands of lawmakers

28:42

and the oversight bodies over the

28:44

prisons here in California

28:46

or nationally. One thing

28:48

that's interesting to know about the California prison

28:50

system is that there is

28:52

an oversight body called the Office of the Inspector

28:55

General of Prisons. And

28:57

they do get a lot of insight

28:59

into the prisons, but they have no

29:01

power. So they regularly issue these reports

29:03

that say you're doing a bad

29:06

job, but you need to do better or like

29:08

this person violated policy. We don't agree with this.

29:10

But until there is

29:12

a real appetite internally in

29:15

the agency to take action or

29:17

a body like that

29:19

has teeth, this transparency only

29:22

gets you so far. I think it's

29:24

really important again for the public to

29:26

know about it because that is how

29:28

change happens is people taking an interest

29:30

and people taking

29:32

a care about this public institution that

29:35

we own. Like this is our bag.

29:39

And so I think that's why I do

29:41

this work, but then I have to hand it

29:43

off and see where it goes from there. Yeah.

29:47

Well, thank you so much. I think

29:50

this reporting is so

29:52

important and it's the, it's

29:55

reporting on people who truly don't

29:57

have a voice, people who have died.

30:00

who are incarcerated and you give

30:02

them a voice. So we're so

30:04

grateful to be able to tell

30:06

the story. Thank you and and I

30:08

also feel honored you know that people

30:11

allowed me to share their stories with

30:13

so many people. That

30:19

was criminal justice reporter Suki Lewis,

30:21

host of On Our Watch from

30:23

KQED in San Francisco.

30:27

You can listen to all eight episodes of

30:29

their latest season at kqed.org

30:33

slash on our watch or

30:35

wherever you get your podcast. This

30:38

episode of the Sunday Story was

30:40

produced by Justine Yan and edited

30:42

by Liana Simstrom with additional editing

30:44

by Jen Chien, the director of

30:47

podcasts at KQED. Production support

30:49

from Chris Agusa, our engineer

30:51

was Robert Rodriguez. The

30:54

Sunday Story team includes Abby Wendell

30:56

and our senior editor Jenny Schmidt.

30:59

Liana Simstrom is our supervising producer

31:01

and Irene Noguchi is our executive

31:04

producer. If

31:06

you're experiencing mental health related distress

31:08

or have a loved one who

31:10

needs crisis support, please call

31:12

or text 988 the

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suicide and crisis lifeline. I'm Aisha

31:17

Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all

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