0:00

Welcome

0:00

to the podcast. I'm

0:02

Jason Walkab, founder and co CEO

0:04

of My Buddy Green, and your host.

0:08

This episode of the MEG podcast

0:10

was made in partnership with Apollo Neuro.

0:12

How would you like to get thirty more minutes

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1:27

HRV. Dave Rabin specializes in the

1:29

treatment of PTSD, depression, anxiety

1:31

disorders, and substance use disorders.

1:34

A trauma expert doctor Dave was on a mission

1:36

to help his patients gain more control

1:38

over their stress response in the moments

1:40

that they needed it. HRV focused on leveraging

1:42

the idea that our sense of touch can

1:45

signal safety to our brains and that

1:47

this feeling catalyzes a cast state

1:49

of restorative effects like lower respiratory

1:51

rate, lower heart rate, better digestion, and

1:54

sleep, and improved mental function, which

1:56

leads me to the amazing

1:58

new company he founded

1:59

with many of my friends,

2:02

Apollo leverages

2:04

all of Dave's incredible Research.

2:07

Dave welcome. Thank you so much for having me,

2:09

Jason. It's a pleasure.

2:11

So you've spent over fifteen

2:13

years studying resilience and the impact

2:15

of chronic stress on our lives. So

2:17

can you tell us a little bit more about

2:20

what that looks like? What led you to

2:22

this in general? Yeah. So

2:24

I think the thing that's really interested me

2:27

over the years since I was very,

2:29

very young, was

2:31

seeing people respond to stress in different

2:33

ways. Sometimes, you know, I saw people,

2:35

you know, who would who

2:37

are the people who are the

2:40

people we look up to most in life. Right? These

2:42

extreme athletes at

2:45

great minds who overcame, you

2:47

know, when you would listen to stories about their lives.

2:49

They overcame tremendous challenges in

2:51

their lives that push them to grow

2:53

and adapt and to really

2:56

test what they were capable of as

2:58

humans. And that really

3:00

inspired me to

3:02

think about how some

3:04

of us don't wind up

3:07

in in, you know, making that

3:09

leap. Right? We wind up getting pushed

3:12

down by stress. And sometimes even the same

3:14

people who wind up achieving greatness

3:16

HRV we, you know, look at as as

3:18

greatness in human society, also have

3:20

other times where they were not able

3:22

to overcome or had challenge, you

3:25

know, regrade challenge, both challenges overcoming

3:28

a stressful experience. And so

3:30

that always interested me

3:33

in seeing people kind of being able to

3:35

go in these different directions and and

3:37

kind of led me to start to ask

3:39

the question, well, maybe stress isn't all bad. Right?

3:41

maybe there's different kinds of stress and some stress

3:44

shuts us down PhD some stress makes us,

3:46

helps us grow PhD maybe

3:48

there's a way that we can think about this differently

3:50

PhD so that kind of inspired me to go into

3:52

the field of mental health and neuroscience of

3:55

stress looking at, you know,

3:57

how do we react to stress,

3:59

what kinds

3:59

of things can we set up in our environment to

4:02

help us overcome and adapt to stress

4:04

more effectively, to help us grow to

4:07

help us really reach our our

4:09

best selves through the process of life.

4:12

And, ultimately, it led

4:15

me to think about different ways

4:17

that we could use the tools and

4:19

the resources we have in our environment to

4:21

facilitate that process. Right? So things

4:23

like breath work, soothing

4:25

touch, soothing music, medicate,

4:27

you know, some some kinds of medications and

4:29

substances can be very helpful

4:31

in this process when used thoughtfully

4:34

and properly PhD sort

4:36

of the whole thing. Right? All the tools we have available

4:39

are are vast. We have access

4:41

to more techniques and understanding and

4:43

knowledge than we've ever had entire course of

4:45

humanity in this generation right

4:47

now. And that is an

4:49

incredible time to be alive. So I

4:51

really, over time, just started to explore

4:53

these different areas and and understand,

4:56

you know, how

4:57

do we use all these tools we have available to

5:00

give us the best lives that we can Dave. It's

5:02

very cool and and there's a lot to unpack there.

5:04

And I wanna come back to the the

5:06

big question which comes to mind

5:08

immediately for me is

5:10

you know,

5:10

adversity strikes, stress

5:13

happens, and one person is

5:15

resilient, goes on to

5:17

do great things while another falters

5:20

and never quite recovers. What Dave you

5:22

learned about those two

5:24

different cases? And what causes

5:27

someone to flourish versus someone

5:29

else to falter? It's a it's a really good

5:31

question. I I think there's, you know,

5:33

there's there I don't

5:34

have the answer to that in in

5:36

completion because there's a lot more we

5:38

still need to learn. But I can tell you what

5:40

I've learned from my work and from all

5:42

the studying that I've done, which is

5:44

that There are two major

5:46

factors here that a

5:50

very critical impact for us, each

5:52

of us in our journey. The

5:54

first is the impact

5:56

of our environment PhD how

5:58

supportive and nurturing our environment

6:01

is. So if

6:03

our environment PhD the people

6:05

around us people who, for

6:07

example, support us PhD,

6:10

you know, to use a metaphor, like, hold our

6:12

hand through the first day of school.

6:14

Right? And give us a hug when we come back

6:16

and make sure that we know that we're supported,

6:18

we're cared for, we're loved, unconditionally

6:21

supported through the process as hard

6:23

as it might be, we're gonna

6:25

have an easier time getting through. Right?

6:28

Because we know that

6:30

we have help. We have

6:32

help along the way, and then it's okay to ask for

6:34

that help. On the other hand,

6:37

there are lots of other environments that

6:39

many of us are in in different situations that

6:41

are the opposite of that or somewhere in between,

6:44

right, where we are kind of tossed

6:46

into the pool or

6:48

without without a life vest on. Right?

6:50

And just ass told to swim PhD

6:53

then we're not given any kind of

6:55

support or handholding. And then when we get out and

6:57

we've been struggling for hours or

6:59

days, you know, the person who we

7:01

look to for support and guidance or

7:03

mentorship turns to us and says, well, you

7:05

know, what's wrong with you that you couldn't do this

7:07

on your own? Right? And

7:09

so that would be the opposite extreme. And I

7:11

think that that what we see

7:13

in the studies of PTSD

7:15

in particular are that the

7:19

support that happens after

7:21

the fact, after the traumatic event,

7:23

after the challenging resilience, The

7:25

support that comes from our community is absolutely

7:28

essential in steering whether

7:30

that becomes some something that leads

7:32

to something like PTSD or mental illness. versus

7:34

whether that leads to something that facilitates

7:38

growth PhD and, you

7:40

know, acceleration of

7:43

ourselves as our full human

7:46

human beings and our full potential.

7:48

And then the other side of it, which is directly

7:50

related to the support, is what we

7:52

do ourselves. Right? Which is

7:54

HRV are we taught to think about

7:57

stress? HRV we taught which

7:59

is of course related to the people and

8:01

the environment around us? Are we taught

8:03

by our role models PhD our

8:05

friends and family? to

8:07

think about stress as something

8:10

we should avoid at all costs. And and whenever

8:12

it happens, we should ask why me?

8:14

Like, what's wrong with me that this is happening

8:16

to me? HRV are

8:18

we taught that stress is inevitable

8:20

PhD that we're going to face stress because if

8:22

we didn't face stress and challenge in

8:24

our lives, then we wouldn't have any reason to

8:26

grow. Right? Anybody who

8:29

does not have to overcome challenge in their lives.

8:31

We all know some people like that. Those

8:33

people don't really have a lot of skills

8:36

in certain areas because they didn't have to develop

8:38

them. There was no pressure that

8:40

was kind of nudging them to learn

8:42

how to do stuff differently because

8:44

everything just came easy for them.

8:46

And that is a very different

8:48

kind of of life PhD results

8:50

in different kind of mindset around

8:53

stress and discomfort, whereas

8:55

people who adopt and learn

8:57

to adopt a growth mindset,

8:59

which is absolutely critical for

9:02

success in the world is and what we

9:04

should, you know, role model for each other and what we

9:06

teach in therapy is this idea

9:08

that stress and challenges and

9:10

adversity are going to happen

9:12

no matter what you do. Right?

9:15

And if you recognize that and if you can

9:17

admit that to your self, then you're

9:19

automatically accepting that it's not because

9:21

of me that I'm facing challenges.

9:23

It's because that's just part

9:25

of life. So then what do I do? What I

9:27

do is I know that these challenges are gonna

9:29

come. I can't predict the future, but I

9:31

know it could be challenging. PhD

9:33

I do everything I can to prepare

9:36

myself to make sure that I'm in

9:38

a state of mind and body that that I'll have the

9:40

best shot overcoming it and adapting to

9:42

it and coming out like a shining bright

9:44

star on the other side. You know, but

9:46

immediately comes to mind as a debate in

9:48

parenting right now with children. there's

9:51

a school of thought that, and I get it

9:53

as a parent, you want to protect your child,

9:55

you never want to see your child suffer or

9:57

get HRV, and so there's a

10:00

school

10:00

of thought that I would say is

10:03

definitely a little bit more prone to

10:05

cobbling, if you will, and

10:07

avoiding stress. then

10:09

there are other people who are completely on

10:11

board with what you said in growth mindset,

10:14

and they have resources. And unfortunately,

10:16

maybe the kids aren't exposed to

10:19

things that that other

10:21

kids aren't exposed to in

10:23

terms of you know, I

10:25

think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like,

10:27

your needs are all met, kids are safe, neighborhood,

10:30

educated, two parents, all that stuff. So but

10:32

but but the parents understand, like, we'd have

10:34

the growth mindset. And so on that end,

10:36

they'll, like, create this artificial

10:39

stress. You know, they'll drop the kid off the

10:41

woods and say go for go. They're

10:43

all these programs they have and we'll

10:45

create we'll we'll we'll manufacture

10:47

this, which I can

10:49

appreciate both sides of this, but and I don't want to

10:51

spend too much about the kid piece, but I do

10:53

think it's interesting. What what's your take

10:55

on

10:56

Huddl myth. So

10:57

those are also, you know, on

10:59

the extremes. Right? Okay. Of course.

11:02

And and Right.

11:04

I think the answer like in most

11:06

situations is that we wanna we wanna

11:08

find the balance middle middle ground.

11:10

Right? The middle ground that sits

11:12

between those two is We

11:14

want our children to

11:16

feel safe being

11:19

themselves. Right? We want

11:21

them to know that

11:23

regardless of what they're facing,

11:25

challenge wise, regardless of the hardships

11:27

of life, that they are loved

11:29

unconditionally, they are supported emotional,

11:32

and they can always come to us and turn to us

11:34

as parents when they're struggling. Right?

11:36

And that if they need something, we will

11:39

not necessarily solve the problem for

11:41

them, but we're certainly not gonna make them

11:43

feel bad about the problem they have. We're not

11:45

gonna blame them for it. And we're not gonna

11:47

make them not wanna talk to us

11:49

because that is defeating of the purpose.

11:51

Right? There's the the shame

11:54

that we often accidentally impart

11:56

to our kids or our students

11:58

is something that is often

11:59

taught to us, but, you know, it's up to

12:02

us to recognize that the

12:04

only purpose of shame is as a teaching tool. And

12:06

once somebody's learnt the lessons from making

12:08

mistakes, then you know, shame should

12:10

be discarded PhD and we should

12:13

move forward with the lessons

12:15

that we've learned. Right? So I think the

12:17

foundation of all this, which is definitely

12:19

not tangential to this conversation. It's

12:21

highly related is safety

12:23

is at the foundation of of

12:25

it PhD safety comes down to

12:27

reminding people that they are

12:29

loved and cared for and that they can

12:31

be safe in their own skin just

12:33

being themselves. without judging

12:35

themselves. And if we can

12:37

model that for our children, then

12:39

they can overcome a

12:42

tremendous adversity. they can

12:44

overcome tremendous hardship because

12:46

and come out really even

12:48

much stronger on the other side because

12:51

they they have

12:52

access to their full self. And

12:55

if we tell if we judge

12:57

them or we express, you know,

12:59

overly overly

13:01

critical thoughts or or judgmental thoughts

13:04

or make them feel like they're not allowed to

13:06

be themselves, then they end

13:08

up sequestering those parts of

13:10

themselves away like their sensitive parts

13:12

in the case of most American men

13:14

who are taught you're not supposed to cry you're not

13:16

supposed to express emotion right,

13:18

in public. And then all of a sudden, we don't

13:20

have access to those parts anymore because we're taught that

13:22

they're not serving us, so they're not good, PhD

13:24

they're not valid. or

13:26

they're not worthy. And then all of a sudden,

13:29

we don't get the benefits of being

13:31

empathic sensitive human beings as

13:33

American men, which is obviously

13:35

a useful tool. Right? So it's just it's just

13:37

bind balance that's based

13:39

on making sure our kids are

13:41

safe and making PhD then

13:44

allowing them the opportunity to

13:46

HRV to figure it out on their own, not

13:48

solving it for them, try to figure it out on their own,

13:50

but giving them the guidance that they need along

13:52

the way to know that they're supported. Well,

13:54

so you

13:55

know, I also want to come back to this idea

13:58

that

13:58

stress is not, all stress is

14:01

not bad.

14:02

And let's talk about good

14:04

stress. bad stress and also chronic

14:06

stress. How do you think about defining

14:09

all of the above? So

14:11

thinking about what we were just talking about,

14:13

there's two terms that come from the

14:16

study of this area,

14:18

which is EU

14:20

stress, EU stress,

14:22

which represents good stress

14:24

or stress that forces

14:26

us to grow. Then

14:28

there's that's

14:29

like that's like

14:31

you know, there's lots of examples of

14:33

this, but like playing on

14:35

a sports team where you're surrounded

14:37

by your peers who are

14:39

many of whom are better

14:41

than you at that sport and then you see

14:43

them and you have a

14:46

challenge and in your mind to push yourself to

14:48

reform as well as they do. Right?

14:50

So that would be an example of you stress.

14:52

There's lots of examples of that.

14:54

Having a growth mindset, like we're talking about

14:56

earlier, seeing challenge is something

14:58

that is just another opportunity

15:00

for growth itself and

15:02

exploring what we're capable of as human

15:04

beings can

15:07

make any kind of stress you

15:09

stress. Because it

15:11

our mindset helps us to understand if

15:13

we're safe and we know we're safe,

15:15

and we're supported, then we

15:18

can reframe stressful

15:20

experiences as opportunities for growth in almost

15:22

every situation. Alternatively,

15:25

distress is what we think of

15:27

as like bad stress. So

15:29

distress being the

15:31

the opposite of you stress, is

15:34

stress that makes us feel bad about

15:36

ourselves HRV stress that makes us feel

15:38

incapable or makes us

15:40

feel unworthy or

15:42

like less less of who we

15:44

are. Right? And that stress,

15:46

I would say, in general, is

15:49

the kind of stress that

15:51

results in chronic stress

15:54

that on a multiple

15:57

times daily basis or or

15:59

all the time

15:59

consistently for some people that

16:02

they are

16:03

under, you know, duress. They're

16:05

under continuous, almost it

16:07

almost feels like oppression, like you're being

16:10

pushed down. PhD the body

16:12

responds to it in the only way it

16:14

knows how, which is the way

16:15

that it responds to a lion lurking

16:18

outside your your Right? And

16:20

then your sympathetic nervous system, the fight or

16:22

flight system that we all know and love

16:24

goes out through the roof, PhD that

16:27

system is supposed to get us out of an

16:29

actual survival situation, which

16:31

means lack of air, lack of hunger, lack of

16:33

food, lack of water, and

16:35

lack and lack of physical safety,

16:37

that system is dedicated

16:39

to that purpose and supposed to get

16:41

us out of that situation to

16:43

survival and safety. But

16:45

when we're answering too many emails

16:47

HRV we have too many responsibilities, there's too

16:49

much noise around or too much news or

16:51

have you, then that

16:53

system gets turned on accidentally

16:55

when it's not supposed to. And we perceive

16:59

survival threat when we don't have it. And

17:01

then when that persists over

17:03

multiple days,

17:05

weeks, months, years, you get the

17:07

effect of chronic stress, which

17:10

is very, very distressing

17:12

to the body, which can ultimately cause

17:15

disease. Because the body starts

17:17

diverting resources that need to go to

17:19

recovery, sleep, reproduction,

17:22

digestion, immunity, all those

17:24

resources get sent to the

17:26

skeletal muscles, the heart, the lungs, the motor

17:28

cortex, the femur center of the brain because the body

17:30

perceives that we're in a survival situation.

17:32

So it's really a resource allocation

17:35

problem. Is it fair to say that

17:36

if one is good at

17:39

managing the EU stress?

17:41

that they're probably going to be better at managing

17:43

the chronic stress, if you will, to

17:45

some degree. You know, I think about, you

17:47

mentioned sports. I think that's the best

17:50

example. I I I've said this before in the

17:52

show. III learned

17:54

more about life and

17:56

resilience and everything

17:59

than playing basketball and call then I learned

18:01

playing basketball, you know, playing in Harlem

18:03

when I was a kid and seeing what adversity

18:05

really look like. playing

18:07

in college and being

18:09

terrible and losing and losing

18:11

and figuring out at the end how to win and

18:13

we started to win.

18:16

PhD I think in terms

18:19

of of who I am today,

18:21

it played a significant role.

18:23

And I and I think if you are able

18:25

to manage the EU stress, you develop

18:27

to your point, you have that growth mindset,

18:30

not to say, when you

18:32

have that chronic stress, when life feels

18:34

like it's piling up, and you feel like

18:36

it's crushing you, that that's

18:38

real. But it's safe to say, I

18:40

think if if you're good, at

18:42

the EU stress, you're probably gonna your

18:44

resilience level for the

18:46

chronic stress is probably increase

18:49

than the average person

18:51

who who gets stressed

18:53

very easily. And I'll stress very easily in

18:55

terms of the good stress, a little adversity, you

18:58

know, they're they they get the wrong order of coffee

19:00

in the morning and it ruins their day. Maybe

19:02

not the best example, but I love

19:04

coffee. I drink coffee.

19:06

So, you know, that that actually I would be affected by

19:09

that, but a little bit, but it would Dave ruined my

19:11

day. No. I mean, that's a great example. I mean, that's like

19:13

leaving work and then hitting traffic and ruining the day.

19:15

Right? It's like -- Yes. Yeah. It's a it's

19:17

it's a I mean, yeah, you're you're

19:19

definitely on the right track. And I but I

19:21

think there's a nuance there that's

19:23

important because what you're describing

19:25

in in essence is the

19:28

phenomenon of resilience.

19:30

Right? Resilience

19:32

is how quickly HRV we

19:34

able to bounce back from whatever is knocking us

19:37

down? If that's what resilience

19:39

is, then if you

19:41

think about stress

19:43

as just information

19:45

or or situations,

19:48

information and situations coming

19:50

into our brains and our

19:52

awareness Then when that comes in, that that stress could be in the form

19:54

of email. It could be a form of news. Like

19:56

we're talking about earlier, it could be the form of

19:59

athletic. challenges. It can be the

20:01

form of traffic. Right?

20:03

Too many responsibilities. All these things

20:05

are information that is coming into

20:07

our awareness, that is giving us a

20:09

sense of some kind of stress. Ultimately,

20:12

when that comes in

20:14

PhD we first face it, we address

20:17

it, there's an opportunity there.

20:19

This is also what we teach in in therapy

20:21

is that recognizing the this opportunity

20:23

is critical. This opportunity is

20:25

when stress comes in, we have

20:27

the choice to choose. Am I

20:29

going to think about this as you stress

20:31

or distress? Right? Am I

20:33

going to think about this as Hooray,

20:36

another opportunity for growth. This is gonna be

20:38

hard, but I'm gonna be better at the end for

20:40

it. Or am I thinking about this as,

20:42

oh, god. Why me? Another another thing

20:44

I have to deal with today. Right? And

20:46

then and then the cycle goes down of, like,

20:48

self judgment. What's wrong with me that this

20:50

stuff happens to me? Right? everybody, when we grew

20:52

up, there was shirt that said, the shit happens shirt. You

20:55

probably remember. Right? Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm not you

20:57

know, why does this shit always happen to

20:59

me? Right? Well,

21:01

shit just happens. So either

21:03

you accept that and you

21:05

turn your stress into you stress

21:07

right off the bat, or you deny

21:09

it and resist it. And as the Buddha say, you

21:12

create suffering by resisting

21:15

the inevitable. The inevitable

21:17

being we will be stressed. So

21:19

it's about just so a lot of it is

21:22

is trying to limit what

21:24

we're exposed to and what comes in, so we're not

21:26

overwhelmed and over stimulated all the

21:28

time. Creating the environment

21:30

ideally as much as we can and we want to

21:32

be in the mix as happy and fulfilled

21:34

and joyful and supported But

21:36

also, what do we do when that stuff comes in?

21:38

Do we choose to look at it as a growth opportunity?

21:40

Or we choose to look at it as an opportunity to judge

21:43

ourselves for not being good

21:45

enough? or for not being better than we should as bad

21:47

as good as we should be. Or we think

21:49

we should be or we're taught to be.

21:51

Right? And that is very empowering

21:53

for people because most of us don't even realize we have

21:55

that choice. You know, I am not

21:57

a boxing fan or a Mike Tyson fan,

22:00

but there's a great quote. Everyone

22:02

has a plan until they're punched in the face.

22:05

Great quote.

22:06

But I think that

22:08

it's it's, you know, and at the same

22:11

time. Right? It's

22:12

what do you do when you

22:14

get punched in the You still have a

22:17

choice as as as a impressive

22:19

and unpleasant as that might be,

22:21

you still have a

22:24

choice. Right? You have a choice. to

22:26

punch

22:27

back, to

22:31

run, to try, to

22:34

tactfully appeal to the person's

22:37

sense of humanity PhD maybe

22:39

be diplomatic. Right? I

22:42

can't tell you, you know, hypothetical

22:44

situation, which is gonna be the best option.

22:46

But the point of it is that I

22:48

think we often forget is

22:50

that there is still a choice. We

22:52

still have the ability to choose

22:55

the outcome of the situation

22:57

in some respect. PhD sometimes that choice has to

22:59

be made in a fraction of a second in

23:02

this particular punch in the face

23:04

scenario. Assuming assuming assuming

23:06

we're in the ring PhD we're all professional box officers,

23:08

of course. Right.

23:11

Right. And and other times, you

23:13

know, we have, you know,

23:15

thirty seconds or hours to make the

23:17

decision. And so it's but it's really

23:19

about remembering

23:21

that we have a

23:24

choice by being

23:27

aware of what's happening and

23:29

being aware of that choice. And so

23:31

this is actually why I love the

23:33

work that we do so much is

23:35

because as therapists, as psychiatrists, you

23:38

know, the tools that we

23:40

use and everything from the natural

23:42

tools like deep breathing and soothing

23:44

touch PhD patient, mindfulness

23:47

HRV all about expanding awareness

23:49

to empower us to choose. And

23:51

as soon as you start to do those

23:53

things, you realize that the body

23:56

and the mind are

23:58

actually much more powerful than we were

23:59

maybe taught they were. and that you have more

24:02

access to tools that can help you. And

24:04

then, and for those who've never learned how to do

24:06

that on their own, like the breath work and

24:08

meditation PhD and and yoga and these

24:10

things. You know, there are other tools that

24:12

you can use like Apollo and

24:14

psychedelic assisted therapy and other things that are

24:16

awareness expanding tools.

24:19

But but it's it's really goes back to

24:21

that awareness, which is not and

24:23

training our awareness mindfully,

24:25

which is not new to us. This

24:27

is stuff that's existed for thousands of Dave. So

24:29

in terms

24:30

of tools and data,

24:32

you know, something which

24:34

which I look at,

24:36

all the time is heart rate variability. Can

24:39

you

24:41

talk a little bit about

24:44

how HRV

24:46

can provide insight PhD do

24:48

our ability to manage stress. To

24:50

me, it's a clear signal

24:52

of how stressed I am HRV how much

24:54

sleep I've had or if I've or if there's

24:56

an illness that that's coming on or

24:58

I'm coming out of it. That's my take? What

25:00

what's your take and what we can learn from

25:04

HRB? I I mean, I would say

25:05

that's accurate. I think the challenge

25:07

with HRB is Dave more of

25:09

how you measure it and and how often you measure

25:11

it because not all devices

25:13

measure HRV with equal

25:15

accuracy or precision. So

25:17

in the lab, we measure it with

25:20

an EKG machine where you're sitting

25:22

still wired up, you

25:24

know, for one to three minutes to

25:26

get an accurate measure with you not moving

25:28

or doing anything because any

25:30

movement or anything you do or think

25:32

about can make

25:34

your HRV change. So

25:36

in in that respect, the

25:38

devices that tend to have the most accurate

25:41

HRV measurements on the consumer level are

25:43

things like or ring, which

25:45

has an algorithm that makes sure that your

25:47

HRV I have one too, but I I --

25:49

Yeah. -- PhD it on today. but the

25:51

HRV makes sure that or shows

25:53

that your that your

25:57

in terms of the

25:59

o ring, it's it's only assessing it at

26:02

rest. So when you're not moving, that's

26:04

when it starts to check to measure your heart rate

26:06

and your HRV. PhD so then average over time

26:09

and then that average gets trended over

26:11

time. So in the lab, you can look at

26:13

HRV in a moment, in the

26:15

real world, HRV in the moment is

26:17

very hard to measure because we're always

26:19

doing stuff. We're always moving. We're

26:21

always thinking. We're not at rest that

26:23

often unless we're in bed not moving at

26:25

all. And so it's

26:27

so that there's a challenge there and

26:29

ordering's probably the most accurate consumer

26:31

wearable for that. But to your point,

26:33

it is HRV is

26:35

one of the most accurate measures of

26:37

resilience in the body

26:39

and it's impacted by

26:42

things like getting great deep sleep,

26:44

critically important for HRV. It's probably the

26:47

most important PhD then second to that is like

26:49

soothing touch, breathing,

26:51

soothing intentional breath breathing,

26:53

soothing music can do it,

26:55

yoga practices, same things we're talking about

26:57

before, meditation, mindfulness, float tanks.

27:00

Right? All of these kinds of practices that

27:02

help us to restore a sense of control

27:04

and balance in our bodies are

27:06

all things that boost vagal nerve

27:08

tone HRV parasympathetic tone in

27:10

our redirecting resource to the recovery

27:12

nervous system, which then slows

27:15

our heart and then increases our HRV.

27:18

And that was actually part of how we discovered

27:20

Apollo because people with PTSD have

27:22

very, very low HRV have

27:24

you quantified low just to get people baselined.

27:27

It did differ for everyone but very

27:29

low being, like, less than twenty.

27:32

not

27:32

all means. So if you're

27:34

in the less than twenty range, then

27:36

that means your body is in

27:38

a state of very, very poor recovery.

27:41

So that means you're more likely to make

27:44

mistakes, more likely to

27:46

perform inconsistently, cognitively,

27:48

and physically. more

27:50

likely to get injured because you're gonna make more

27:52

likely to make mistakes you're

27:54

less able to focus consistently

27:56

PhD you're probably getting pretty poor sleep.

27:59

or you have some emotional or other

28:01

stressors around in your life that

28:03

are distracting you and putting you into a

28:05

stress state, but you're not recovered. not

28:07

going to be in a state to take on

28:10

really, you're not going to overcome challenge

28:12

well in that state. So

28:14

those are metrics that elite athletic coaches and

28:16

trainers use PhD the military use to determine whether or

28:18

not somebody is gonna be a starter or

28:20

ready to go on a mission. Because

28:22

if you're in a state where your HRV is

28:24

that low or your HRV is in your

28:26

bottom twenty percent of what your HRV normally

28:29

is, then you're probably

28:31

not in a position to perform at

28:33

your peak. So under twenty

28:35

is is is

28:36

low and not ideal. What

28:39

what's great. And again, it varies. Everyone's individualized,

28:41

but if you could give us

28:43

a sense of the opposite end

28:45

of the spectrum. So

28:47

the nice interesting thing about HRV is there's no peak.

28:50

Right? So you can literally

28:52

have your your HRV

28:55

can be as we don't, you know, it could

28:57

be as potentially high as

28:59

as it can go. We This is the

29:01

idea of unlimited potentially

29:03

unlimited human potential. Right? We know

29:06

what these stressed humans look

29:08

like. Now the question is that

29:10

I think it's even more exciting is what do

29:12

the ultimate humans look like? Like,

29:15

what do we look like when we are in a

29:17

position of

29:18

complete safety

29:21

that

29:21

we at least have have, you

29:23

know, feeling safe in our own skin, at least we've

29:25

gotten to that point so that we

29:27

can give ourselves the opportunity to explore

29:29

what our full potential could be.

29:31

HRV is kind of an interesting metaphor

29:33

for that because it doesn't have a

29:36

peak. I know people who are in their 60s, who

29:38

are, you know, former athletes

29:40

and military folks PhD have their

29:42

HRV in, like, the two hundred and

29:45

thirties on a regular basis. Like, these people are fine

29:47

specimens of humanity, and it's so impressive.

29:51

Wow. And so, you know, the,

29:53

you know, Who knows how how good it

29:55

could be? The point is we want it to

29:57

trend up. So

29:58

regardless of where your HRV is at

29:59

with any of these devices, that you're

30:02

measuring it with, the most important thing is

30:04

it's going up. If it's

30:06

going down consistently over

30:08

time, that means that you're something you're doing or

30:10

multiple things you're doing in your life

30:12

are not contributing to your recovery where they're

30:14

literally just taking away from your

30:16

recovery or you're performing too hard PhD you're not

30:18

recovering enough. So it's a sign

30:20

of how balanced we are between

30:22

as traditional Asian, Chinese

30:24

medicine, practitioners talk about yin and yang.

30:26

Right? Output versus input.

30:29

If our output is too great and it's

30:31

not balanced with enough taking in,

30:34

then

30:34

we are going to have

30:36

unbalanced lives,

30:36

and that's gonna be reflected as a low

30:39

HRV. And

30:40

inverse relationship with resting heart rate,

30:42

you want HRV to continue to be

30:45

going up? resting heart rate

30:47

continuing to be trending down.

30:51

Correct. And

30:52

since your heart beat, the

30:55

more time between each beat therefore PhD more opportunity there

30:57

is for your variability.

31:00

And so

31:00

let's segue to

31:03

You know, we're spending a lot of time. We

31:05

talked about aura, stress, sleeps, you

31:08

know, let's go to stress and sleep for

31:10

a minute. when

31:12

we are stressed, because look,

31:14

as we're all acknowledging, stress happens.

31:16

You can't avoid it. You can't eliminate

31:18

it. You gotta manage it. PhD

31:20

when you are stressed, how

31:22

do you ensure you get a good night sleep?

31:24

because it happens. It's gonna

31:27

happen. And it does affect your sleep PhD it

31:29

affects my sleep and I'm really stressed and I'm

31:31

pretty good sleeper. What can we

31:33

do? What we know we're stressed? and we're

31:35

dreading going to sleep because we know it's not

31:37

gonna look good. So

31:39

so so a couple different

31:42

things. Right? I think that if you think about what

31:44

HRV can teach us about this, when

31:46

we're stressed, our heart

31:48

rates going up and our HRV is

31:50

coming down, So

31:53

that means that our body is

31:55

taking resources away

31:57

from our recovery and rest

31:59

nervous system, the parasympathetic nervous system

32:02

diverting them to

32:03

skeletal muscles PhD diverting them

32:06

to the heart and the lungs PhD ever cortex

32:08

of our brain that is responsible for movement

32:10

and getting out of the situation in

32:12

our fear center, all of which are

32:15

not useful when we're trying to

32:17

enter the vulnerable state of deep sleep, where

32:20

we are potentially paralyzed.

32:22

Right? deep

32:24

sleep and rem sleep, we are

32:27

defenseless effectively, physically

32:29

defenseless. So if we

32:31

want to be able to enter one

32:33

of those deep restorative states, then

32:35

we have to remind

32:38

ourselves as challenges it might be

32:40

or as much as we have not learned to do

32:42

it. We have to remind ourselves that

32:44

we're safe. Right? We have to remind

32:46

ourselves that we are safe

32:48

enough to be

32:48

able to fall asleep.

32:51

And

32:51

so when and

32:53

then when we do that using things

32:55

like deep, slow emotional breathing,

32:57

I have a really my

32:59

favorite technique is is if, you know, it's relatively simple. It's just

33:01

breathe the way you breathe when you're sleeping.

33:04

Right? Slung, slow inhales hold

33:06

for a second. slow

33:08

exhales. It can be about five seconds

33:10

in. Hold for a second. Five or six

33:12

seconds out. And you just keep doing that and

33:14

try to fill your lungs as deep as you can.

33:17

and empty them as much as you can

33:19

on every exhale, and

33:21

then your body starts to wind

33:23

down and you're starting to tell your body,

33:25

hey, you're safe. you're safe

33:27

enough to pay attention to this breath, that means you're safe enough to

33:30

fall asleep. Right? Soothing

33:32

touch, whether you apply it to yourself or you have

33:34

a loved one, also does the

33:36

same thing. That's why

33:39

it's

33:39

harder to sleep without without

33:41

blankets. Right? Because the blankets

33:43

give you a sense of comfort that allows

33:45

you to feel soothed PhD

33:48

why it's often easier to sleep with somebody

33:51

else rather than by yourself. because

33:53

you feel soothing, it feels safe, having that contact

33:55

with another person cuddling with

33:58

you. Right? Or an animal or

33:59

a pet. Right? These kind

34:02

of are relatively

34:04

universal to human nature.

34:06

I

34:06

think those those, especially the breathing and

34:08

the soothing touch, you do it or or

34:11

somebody else. Or and one of the

34:13

other techniques is my favorite is

34:15

called progressive muscle

34:18

relaxation. which is where you basically reach out

34:20

with your fingers and toes as

34:22

far as you can and you stretch them

34:24

as far as you can like a reaching

34:27

stretch while you're lying down in bed and then you

34:29

stretch for five seconds as you breathe

34:32

in and as you relax and you

34:34

breathe out. PhD then you kind

34:36

of repeat that cycle going all the way up your body, just drawing your awareness away

34:38

from your thoughts about earlier

34:42

that day or things you need to do the next day or

34:44

wherever else your mind could go because our mind's gonna

34:46

be anywhere and then drawing your

34:48

attention back into your body, which is

34:51

enjoying the comfort of your

34:53

sleeping bed nest area.

34:56

And so but these are again all

34:58

difficult challenges.

35:00

Right? So If you haven't learned how to do these techniques, starting to do

35:02

that can be tricky. It could take

35:03

time. They don't always work right away. They can't work

35:06

fairly quickly, but it can take a little bit

35:08

of time. sometimes a couple days

35:10

to get the hang of it. And so that's why

35:12

we developed Apollo because Apollo gives the

35:14

benefits of soothing

35:16

touch to the body by, which could be measured by increasing

35:18

HRV. And so breath

35:20

work up until APOLLO was developed

35:23

Dave were no wearables that

35:25

increased HRV through this method

35:27

of delivering touch to the body or through

35:29

any method. And so we evaluated the

35:31

breathing and the way that soothing

35:33

touch works and the way that

35:35

movement stretching works and and all and

35:37

biofeedback and all these things. And then we figured

35:39

out that why those work? Well, they work

35:42

because they increase, they improve the balance of the stress

35:44

response and the recovery response and nervous systems by

35:46

helping us feel safe and in

35:48

control. And you see that because HRB goes up

35:50

very quickly,

35:52

So what if we could create a

35:54

wearable that could deliver some of those benefits for people

35:56

without them having to do anything? because most people don't

35:58

know how to do this stuff. I never learned any

36:01

of this So why should we expect, if I'm a doctor, I never let

36:03

I do this, why should I expect my patients

36:06

who Dave, you know, to to learn how

36:08

to do this as kids. It's hard. It's

36:10

legitimately hard. PhD so

36:12

Apollo came out of that understanding of

36:14

HRV and just how to help people sleep

36:16

better because it's legitimately challenging. I

36:19

I

36:19

love it. And I I wanna spend a

36:22

bit more time on

36:23

touch and segue to

36:25

to Apollo and and the science.

36:27

because we don't talk about touch

36:30

enough in the conversation of stress. You

36:32

know, breath work, got it, you

36:34

know, stretching, yoga, exercise,

36:36

got it. And nutrition plays a

36:38

role, you know, got it. But

36:41

we don't talk about

36:44

touch. So though What what

36:46

is the Let's talk about the

36:48

science behind touch and

36:50

segue to Apollo because

36:52

I I think it's so powerful.

36:54

So the science

36:56

behind touch is one of my favorite subjects

36:58

because it's unfortunately

37:00

often neglected in modern society,

37:02

especially the western world. Like,

37:04

the UK and the Americas, but it

37:07

is as old as the

37:09

oldest mammals. Right? If you go

37:11

back to the most ancient mammals,

37:14

they all nurse their young and cuddle their young to provide

37:16

sense of safety to them. And that's in

37:19

PhD and the nervous system

37:21

that we have evolved in

37:23

a way that

37:24

is stemming back,

37:25

you know, all of those many millions of

37:28

years to these ancient animals

37:30

where we have

37:32

very tightly tightly wired

37:34

nervous systems that go from our skin

37:36

all the way up to the center of our brains

37:39

that deliver signals that

37:41

say, if you're effectively, if you're safe

37:43

enough to feel this soothing gentle

37:45

feeling right now from someone that

37:47

you trust, like a parent

37:49

HRV a friend, then you can't possibly be running

37:51

from a lion right now. Right? There can't

37:54

Our bodies would not allow us

37:56

to pay attention to the feeling

37:59

that a pleasant feeling of somebody holding our hands or getting as a

38:02

hug, if there was a bear

38:04

outside tent, we would be running

38:06

as quickly as

38:08

we could. PhD we

38:10

would not be enjoying that hook.

38:11

Right? So the body has

38:14

highly evolved these

38:16

pathways, which

38:18

is critical to understand because, again, this is not unique

38:20

to humans. Right? Humans are a derivative

38:22

of every single animal that came for us.

38:25

PhD so we have these

38:27

tightly wired neural networks and Eric Kandell who

38:29

won the Nobel Prize in two

38:31

thousand demonstrated this which that

38:34

we, you know, our way we form memory goes back

38:36

to these ancient sea snails that are three hundred

38:38

million years PhD. And

38:40

they practice

38:42

safety PhD they practice fear

38:44

and when they practice these experiences,

38:47

they try to trained their their neural networks trained to

38:49

to favor safety and to avoid

38:52

fear. And so touch is is one of

38:54

the most highly

38:56

evolved ways that is what

38:58

we call preconscious. We don't need to

39:00

think about it. It just

39:02

happens when you are having a terrible day

39:04

PhD somebody gives you a hug. you

39:06

instantly feel better and you don't need to

39:08

think about it. Right? That

39:10

is kind of magical and

39:13

miraculous, but it's also hardwired

39:16

into our nervous systems and has

39:18

decades of scientific research behind it.

39:20

And I don't think it

39:22

was until the onset of COVID in twenty twenty this

39:24

really became a topic that people

39:26

were interested in at large

39:30

scale because social distancing made it obvious

39:32

that this was something

39:34

we all desperately need

39:36

more in our lives. So on

39:39

that note, we're talking about in the context, I think of family, of loved

39:41

ones, a little bit more

39:43

intimate touch.

39:45

What about the the

39:47

casual touch, the the everyday handshake, you

39:50

know, in the context of of

39:52

work or the

39:54

casual HRV. to

39:56

a neighbor. because that is

39:58

is, I'm assuming, benefit there as

40:00

well. For sure. I mean,

40:02

it facilitates human bonding.

40:04

Right? For it facilitates a safe interaction between you and

40:06

me, which we can also have with eye to

40:08

eye contact, believe it or not even over

40:11

zoom like we're having right

40:13

now, I'm looking at you PhD your eyes, and you're looking

40:15

at me and my eyes. And so there

40:17

is a bond here that happens where

40:19

we help each other feel safe enough to

40:21

have this conversation without feeling judged. Well, sort of.

40:23

Sort of. So one thing

40:24

I'm gonna point out, I I don't know if you

40:26

know you might be aware of this. You're

40:28

technically when you're doing Zoom,

40:32

the

40:32

camera I'm looking you in the screen, but the camera is

40:34

above me. So it's like we're kind

40:36

of at eye, but that is that or

40:39

my overthinking? No. No. You're you're right. That

40:42

you're you're right. I'm not

40:44

saying this is as good as being faced at

40:46

face. Of course. Nothing is good at

40:48

being face to face and and holding

40:50

hands HRV hugging and having like

40:52

a real authentic human

40:54

interaction. But what's interesting is because I

40:56

do almost all my therapy over Zoom

40:58

these days PhD that I

41:00

am able to build in a very short time extremely

41:02

powerful trusting relationships with my

41:04

patients to the point where

41:08

we don't have to be in to get same get

41:10

being in person. And that is pretty

41:13

incredible. Right? Yes.

41:15

And and so I think

41:17

the idea is that you don't have to be a person

41:20

to get it and it doesn't have to be touched to

41:22

get the empathy and the

41:24

safety. But when you

41:26

are in person, and you

41:28

have the eye to eye contact face

41:30

to face, and you have the

41:32

hand shaking, the hand holding, the

41:34

human contact face

41:36

to face, that the touch is is extremely

41:38

important because it reminds us

41:40

that it's okay to be

41:42

vulnerable together. Right? And

41:44

then it reminds us that despite

41:46

we how different we might seem or

41:48

appear to each other on the surface,

41:50

that we are ultimately all human

41:52

before where anything else.

41:54

Right? I am a guy

41:56

wearing a plaid shirt with glasses and you're a

41:58

guy wearing a t shirt with no glasses,

42:00

but we're still human first. before

42:03

were any of those other things. And

42:06

we have a tendency to forget

42:08

that. And when we forget Because we've had

42:10

so much distance between

42:12

each other, PhD when we forget that, we start to feel unsafe.

42:14

And our brains start to say, oh,

42:16

this person's new, this

42:18

person's different. Uh-oh, new and

42:20

different, that might be

42:22

unsafe. If I'm in a situation

42:24

where we can hold hands or look at each other in

42:26

the eye Dave face, My body

42:28

quickly remembers that

42:30

we're still human.

42:30

But if we're far apart PhD we

42:33

don't have

42:33

that opportunity, it's PhD I'm

42:35

also really stressed out in my regular

42:38

life. It's easier for me to

42:40

accidentally

42:42

confuse those

42:42

differences with potential threat. Does that make

42:44

sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm

42:46

gonna come back to how Apollo

42:50

works I think it's, again, such a powerful tool

42:52

and walk us through,

42:53

you know, the the

42:55

development of

42:58

it. And and

42:58

how does it work? Like, how does one use it? because I think it is an

43:00

incredible tool. You know, I think we've clearly

43:02

established HRV as something we

43:05

all need to think about in terms of

43:07

how we manage stress. And there's

43:09

tons of data out

43:11

there Dave terms of

43:13

you know, it's role in longevity. And so walk

43:15

us through how Apollo

43:18

Neuro works. So along the

43:20

lines of this whole

43:22

conversation about safety and PhD benefits

43:24

of soothing touch, we

43:26

PhD empathy, I was seeing

43:28

patients working with people with HRV many

43:30

of whom are veterans with PTSD, substance

43:33

use disorders, treatment resistant mental illness, who

43:35

are really struggling and the

43:37

treatments that we were giving them were just not working for a lot of them. You

43:39

know, I think the statistics for PTSD show

43:42

that less than thirty percent of people who

43:44

get that the standard of

43:46

care treatments are not

43:48

actually getting better long term,

43:50

which is not a good statistic. That means over

43:52

seventy percent of people are still

43:54

symptomatic long term after getting the treatments that

43:56

we're taught to give.

43:58

And so that

44:00

being said, when they're in the office with me or with my other

44:02

talented colleagues who are really good at this

44:04

empathy eye to eye

44:06

contact thing, we're able

44:08

to give them so much of a sense

44:10

of safety and acceptance

44:12

and trust with us in person

44:14

that or in some cases

44:16

over Zoom, that they able to start to

44:18

feel like they can trust themselves again and

44:20

feel safe in their own skin based on modeling

44:23

what it feels like to trust

44:25

us.

44:25

Right? So we build

44:27

a trusting relationship with

44:29

them. They remember what trust feels

44:32

like, and then they learn to trust

44:34

themselves again. And that is we're providing

44:36

a non judgmental space to listen

44:38

to them undividedly without

44:43

judgment with complete acceptance. Then

44:46

they leave the office.

44:48

Big problem. Right? because they're going back into the

44:50

regular world. and they're surrounded by

44:51

all the same stressors. They were surrounded by before they came

44:54

into the office and they're like, oh, doctor

44:56

doctor Raven's not with me anymore. I'm on

44:58

my own. Right? And

44:59

then they have to figure out how to restore that sense of safety

45:01

for themselves, which they probably haven't

45:03

mastered the techniques. Rabin I just talked

45:05

an hour before, PhD so

45:08

they're on their own and they're like, okay. Well,

45:10

I'm gonna go back to the old way I was doing things

45:12

most of the time because that's easier because

45:14

I've trained those habits and

45:18

those

45:18

don't really work

45:19

long term, but they make me feel good right now, so

45:21

I'm just gonna do it. Right? And so what

45:23

we were trying to do when

45:25

we developed Apollo was

45:28

HRV do we tap into the tools

45:30

that actually work for people in the

45:32

techniques that actually work their science based,

45:35

like soothing touch, like soothing music, like

45:38

empathy, and understanding that

45:40

those increase activity in our

45:42

safety or response nervous system in

45:44

our brains, which then increases recovery

45:46

nervous system activity and decreases

45:48

sympathetic fight or flight activity even in

45:50

the moment. HRV could we what can

45:52

we do to create something? We could give people take out of the office. That was the origination.

45:56

And so

45:58

that ended up leading us down this path

46:00

of exploring soothing touch. And we mapped out I mapped out the

46:02

entire neural pathway of how

46:04

touch impacts the emotional brain

46:08

PhD when I was at the University of Pittsburgh

46:10

and in Department of Psychiatry and effectively when you

46:12

are touched in a loving way,

46:15

when you are experiencing soothing vibration

46:18

or a massage, what or

46:20

holding a PhD? What happens to your

46:22

Right? There's something that's actually

46:24

happening PhD telling you, I'm safe right now. And

46:26

it's actually the same thing that happens when you take a

46:28

deep breath. And it's the same thing that happens when

46:30

you do biofeedback. And so we started to look

46:32

at that. And as we saw these similarities,

46:35

we realized that

46:37

there are ways potentially to replicate the benefits of

46:39

soothing touch and deep breathing on the

46:42

go by figuring out what

46:44

the

46:44

touch receptors are

46:46

skin like to feel when we feel safe and sending

46:48

it to them with vibration. And

46:50

so we explored this quite

46:52

a bit for many years

46:54

between

46:55

twenty fourteen and twenty in twenty nineteen, twenty

46:57

eighteen, twenty

46:57

nineteen. And we figured out very, very

47:00

specific frequencies

47:02

of sound that you can that

47:04

are it's the same sound you can hear, but it's

47:06

it's just below the normal range of

47:08

hearing. So it's more like what comes out of

47:10

a subwoofer. So it's like deep deep bass.

47:12

that we figured out you could deliver to the skin in

47:15

very very specific

47:18

ways, almost like a song for

47:20

your skin. that

47:22

the body, the

47:23

skin feels, and then the

47:25

body and

47:25

a sense of the brain and the emotional

47:28

part of our

47:30

brain says, this feels

47:31

safe. This reminds me that I can

47:33

if I can pay attention to this

47:35

feeling, then I can't be running from a

47:37

lion right now. and then

47:39

it retrains us to feel safe

47:42

in in more situations

47:44

in our day

47:44

to day lives as we use it and take it into

47:46

our lives. And it reminds us constantly, hey, I'm

47:49

out in traffic right now. Normally, I might

47:52

choose to flip out or

47:54

sort of beeping my horn or start yelling at

47:56

people, but

47:57

I don't need to do that.

47:58

I have a choice. Right? If I'm

47:59

actually safe right now and, you

48:01

know, anything

48:02

five minutes late to work is is not

48:04

good, but it's not end of my end of the world, I'm not gonna

48:07

make decisions behind the wheel that could actually be

48:09

the end of my world. Right? And it

48:11

reminds us that we have the

48:13

opportunity to choose. our

48:14

outcome like we were talking about earlier. And so as we started to

48:16

see that and we started testing in clinical trials,

48:19

that's actually what the trials showed.

48:22

And then we put it out into the real world, made prototypes, and that's actually what

48:24

people started telling us. And then that

48:26

became the product Apollo that we released

48:29

to the world in twenty

48:32

twenty. right, before the pandemic surprises

48:34

us all. And we

48:37

all

48:37

need it. We're

48:40

having success. trying it is

48:42

is the witching hour when we're trying to put our

48:44

kids to PhD. When they're

48:45

all amped up and things seem quite

48:47

ugly. Yeah. That's

48:50

real. It is real. It

48:52

is real. And so can you just walk us

48:54

through, like, what it looks like? You know, like, where

48:56

do how do people use it?

48:58

you know, where do they where do they put it and so forth integrate it? You know, you

49:00

mentioned or a pretty straightforward put in put in your

49:03

hand. This is actually pretty straightforward too, but

49:05

you can just walk us walk

49:07

walk through what what that looks

49:09

like. Sure. So so Apollo's is

49:11

really different than these other wearables

49:13

in that it's not a tracker.

49:15

So if think

49:16

about wearable technology in

49:18

three generations, the first

49:20

generation of wearables is like, the

49:24

the tracker trackers Apple

49:26

Watch and these other devices that are just

49:28

taking data from you and then showing your

49:30

data then you have to interpret

49:32

the data process the data, interpret it, and then

49:34

decide what to do about it, and then -- Yep.

49:37

-- got it. Right? Then there's the

49:39

next generation like Muse and Peloton and other

49:41

things that are tracker trainers. So

49:43

they're taking data from you

49:45

PhD they're giving you something to

49:48

do, to train yourself, to do

49:50

it better. like news where it's giving you data about how well you're meditating and then asking

49:52

you to do something to meditate better.

49:55

Right? However, we're kind of

49:57

in a situation right now where

50:00

we have complete data overload. And

50:02

many of us don't have

50:05

the bandwidth to

50:07

take on more data and

50:09

then take more time out of our day to act on

50:11

that data. And so part

50:12

of the reason why we developed Apollo

50:15

was to be a the

50:18

actual to take the data, process it for

50:20

you, and then make the change for you. So

50:22

this is the first of the

50:24

third generation of wearables, which looks

50:26

like this. and you can wear it anywhere on your body because it's

50:28

just delivering sound waves

50:30

to your body. It doesn't need to be on your

50:32

scan. It can go through clothing,

50:35

I personally like to wear it

50:37

for sleep on my ankle, which is the

50:39

favorite amongst most of our users, but we

50:41

also have a clip that

50:43

you could see here and this clip allows you to clip it on to

50:45

anywhere you like. I wear it now now that the clip came out,

50:47

I wear it on my

50:50

chest. during the day, and then I wear it on my ankle at night.

50:52

But I think the favorite spots are

50:54

looking like chest,

50:57

that belt, wow bra

50:59

for women, and then

51:02

ankle and wrist. And there's a

51:04

strap also that you can wear on your ankle were

51:06

wrist with. Personally, I'm an ankle and chest guy.

51:08

But interestingly, the studies

51:10

the studies show that location doesn't matter.

51:14

The body As long as you

51:16

can feel the vibration, the body feels it as soothing and then

51:17

interprets it and does

51:20

the work

51:22

for you. which is really, really interesting because

51:24

we don't have a lot of tools that do the

51:26

work for us. No, you

51:28

don't. And look, I love

51:30

the gadgets I love the tools.

51:32

I love my ordering. I love my whoop.

51:34

But they can't improve

51:36

my heart rate variability or

51:38

improve my sleep. They can

51:40

tell me my data, my numbers,

51:41

how I'm performing, but I'm

51:44

fortunate where I know a lot

51:45

of experts in the space and they

51:47

helped me interpret the

51:50

data because you need there's

51:52

more work to do. What

51:54

what you do is so unique is

51:56

you do is a unique is I

51:58

would say to say most

51:59

people are stressed. Most people wanna

52:02

when you're talking about an ex

52:05

Navy Dave has got an HRV of two

52:07

hundred. Think approves the point no no no matter

52:09

where you are. If you're twenty or one hundred

52:11

and twenty, you can do better. You

52:13

wanna do better. here's a

52:15

tool which you can use relatively

52:18

seamlessly. It's not invasive. Put on your

52:20

leg when you go

52:22

to sleep. put in your shirt and could help improve your

52:24

HRV, which overwhelming

52:25

data suggests

52:26

we're all better off in

52:28

terms of longevity, the higher HRV, the

52:32

better. Right.

52:33

And it's not just doing it in the way you described

52:35

and it's not just HRV. Right? HRV

52:37

is interesting as a metric

52:39

that we track to

52:42

show how resilient we

52:44

are on the go. Right? That's an

52:46

important metric, but that is the

52:48

outcome of of being

52:50

healthier and getting better sleep. And

52:52

so what we're seeing with Apollo that's really

52:55

interesting is you can toss your Apollo on

52:57

in the moment of stress because we know stress

52:59

decreases HRV. And in the moment

53:01

of stress, you can boost your HRV by

53:03

anywhere from ten to

53:05

twenty percent in the moment of stress, which

53:08

we'll have what we've seen in the

53:10

studies is we'll have a

53:12

proportionate increase in your cognitive and

53:14

physical performance. of ten to twenty percent just by the

53:16

body in the moment of stress. It was

53:18

even that was from our study at the University

53:22

of Pittsburgh PhD another

53:24

study that just came out showing that it happens

53:27

with athletes post

53:29

workout. What's even more interesting

53:31

is that actually persists over time. So

53:33

if you -- we did a study when COVID happened, all of our sleep --

53:35

all the sleep labs we were planning to work

53:37

with shutdown indefinitely. PhD so

53:40

we thought, well, we have people who use

53:43

these guys or a ring or a ring is

53:45

the most accurate sleep tracker and help and

53:47

cardiovascular health tracker. What

53:50

if we send an email out to our users and say ask them how many of ORR rings

53:52

and wanna share their data with us so that

53:54

we can make our product better. It turns out

53:56

people actually thought that

53:58

was cool. So we had we have now

53:59

over fifteen hundred people

54:00

sharing their warring data with us

54:03

for years, and we're able to

54:05

compare

54:05

what their bodies look

54:08

like and their sleep looks like before Apollo versus after, and

54:10

when they use Apollo and when they don't.

54:12

And that's been really interesting because we've

54:14

been able to see that over three months

54:17

use of Apollo, consistent use,

54:19

which is consistent use as defined as

54:21

having it vibrating on your body about

54:23

three or more hours a day, five or

54:25

more days a week, just

54:26

vibrating on your body doesn't have to be you don't have to do

54:29

anything. That little extra

54:31

touch sensation to

54:34

your body gives

54:35

you up to thirty more

54:37

minutes of sleep each night.

54:39

That's up

54:40

to three and a half hours

54:42

of more sleep every week just

54:44

by having something like this vibrating and sending

54:46

safety signals

54:47

to your body on three or

54:49

four hours a

54:50

day. Right? And

54:52

that sleep is deeper and more breastfed,

54:54

nineteen percent more deep sleep,

54:56

fourteen percent more REM, PhD

54:59

we also see reductions in resting heart rate by about four

55:01

percent and HRV increases that are cumulative

55:03

around eleven

55:05

percent

55:06

HRV improvement.

55:07

So this is showing just that

55:09

the story around safety and

55:12

touch is so consistent

55:14

because the

55:16

bodies are expanding reliably. And and to give you an idea of

55:18

how much those numbers

55:20

are impactful,

55:24

that's comparable to what we see in the literature from somebody adopting

55:26

a new exercise or meditation routine over that

55:28

same three month time

55:30

frame. Wow.

55:30

So every parent including myself

55:32

is asking, can I give this

55:35

to my child? Yes. As as

55:37

I had my three year old sneak

55:39

into bed last night and kick me in the head and, you know,

55:41

I get in decent sleep score, but

55:43

my my my deep

55:46

sleep was definitely compromised last night. Thanks to my beautiful

55:48

wonderful three year old.

55:50

Yep. I know

55:51

that.

55:52

That is

55:56

We have some of our best friends Dave a two and three

55:58

year old right now, and that's like a a real

56:00

a regular struggle for them. But,

56:02

yes, you can use it on kids. We have

56:04

a lot of parents using on their kids. We part of the reason

56:06

why we developed it the way we did

56:09

was using sound is because

56:11

sound is is in the in the

56:14

range that we use it, which is

56:16

just below the audible range in

56:18

the what we call it, tactile range, the range that

56:20

we feel. and at the

56:22

volumes we use it, which is very very

56:24

low, it's virtually universally

56:26

found to be safe.

56:28

So there aren't really side effects

56:31

from known side effects from using sound the way that's

56:33

used with Apollo. It's like having low

56:35

ambient music around all

56:37

the time. Right? So

56:40

that isn't really nice

56:42

because people who for for

56:44

vulnerable populations

56:46

like children you know,

56:48

children, pregnant women, elderly

56:50

adults. Those people

56:52

are and people who are not good medication

56:54

candidates. You know, those people

56:57

need something for them too. And those are

56:59

a lot of our patients. They're people who just

57:01

don't do well with medication.

57:04

And if we can give them something else that they are

57:06

in control over that can give them some

57:08

of the benefits of just feeling

57:11

matter better then

57:12

and sleeping a little better, then that could potentially hold

57:14

off, you know, prevent a lot

57:17

of of the downstream negative consequences

57:19

we see from overusing or

57:22

overprescribing medicine or supplements that

57:24

are still not getting to the heart of

57:26

the problem, which is that we're not feeling

57:28

safe enough to fall

57:30

asleep? It's truly revolutionary.

57:32

I think we all

57:35

need this.

57:36

So, you

57:37

know, in closing, I'm

57:39

curious, you know, you mentioned, you know,

57:41

trying trying to, you know,

57:43

working on studies. I

57:47

am curious of studies you're about to

57:49

embark on HRV studies

57:52

that you're paying attention to or

57:54

something recently published.

57:57

What's the most exciting? Do

58:00

you want the most

58:02

exciting from a

58:04

standpoint of

58:06

kind of new therapies most exciting about changing the way we think about

58:08

the field because there's a PhD, give

58:10

it to me, all the above. Well, so

58:12

this recent

58:13

study just came out from

58:15

the University College of London, that is

58:17

what's called an umbrella study.

58:20

This came out July of

58:22

this year, an umbrella study is a study that look, it's

58:24

a it's called a meta analysis

58:26

of meta analysis studies.

58:29

So it's like over one hundred

58:31

thousand people were included in this And what they found

58:34

was that in fact,

58:36

there is no

58:37

evidence to

58:40

support that

58:40

there is a chemical imbalance or

58:43

a serotonin

58:43

issue in people who

58:45

have depression. PhD

58:48

in addition to that, people

58:50

who have depression are

58:52

more likely to be suffering

58:56

from unprocessed trauma than they are

58:58

to have a chemical imbalance, which

59:00

is what most of us have

59:02

been saying for

59:04

years But the pharmaceutical

59:06

companies have been so many

59:08

of them have been have so

59:11

heavily propagated this

59:14

idea that there's a

59:15

chemical imbalance with Because, you know, that gets medicines out into the

59:17

world. And of course, they're conducting studies that are in

59:19

PhD best interest. Right? That's just -- Right. -- what we

59:21

that it works. But I

59:24

think that we're finally now having large enough

59:27

population studies that are

59:29

very, very

59:29

exciting, which are showing,

59:32

hey, yes, these medications are great

59:34

for some

59:34

people. Right? But

59:37

it's not because there's a

59:39

chemical imbalance. It's because

59:42

they're allowing people an opportunity to

59:45

feel comfortable enough to be

59:47

able to overcome some of these

59:49

challenges they're facing. That

59:51

being said, if you if there's not a

59:53

chemical imbalance, it means you're not

59:56

born with

59:57

your depression. Right? you have the

59:59

ability to change

1:00:01

your future

1:00:02

PhD how you feel

1:00:04

PhD that is so

1:00:06

empowering for our patients and it's so exciting to see that

1:00:09

that's finally coming to the surface.

1:00:11

We'll also think about

1:00:13

if you're treating someone with

1:00:16

depression PhD you're operating

1:00:18

under that assumption and you're prescribing an

1:00:20

SSRI and it's

1:00:22

not a serotonin problem and that

1:00:24

person doesn't feel better. You talk about the feeling

1:00:25

of hopelessness. Nothing works

1:00:28

for me. And there's often a

1:00:32

side effect. PhD you think

1:00:34

about the tens of millions of people who

1:00:35

are affected by this, it

1:00:38

accentuates

1:00:39

the problem.

1:00:41

Yeah.

1:00:41

Try hundreds of millions. Hundreds of

1:00:44

millions. Yeah. The

1:00:45

mental health epidemic works as,

1:00:47

you know, so it's Yeah.

1:00:50

And

1:00:50

it's really important. Right? And this is where psychedelic

1:00:52

medicines come in too because that's

1:00:54

the other breakthrough that's at the forefront

1:00:57

of mental health. and psychiatry because it's the first

1:00:59

time we've ever had tools

1:01:02

that help us

1:01:04

to treat

1:01:06

somebody's mental illness in a way that

1:01:08

is long lasting with just a few doses

1:01:10

of medicine. Right? Most medications

1:01:12

we are taught to use in

1:01:15

mental health, we are taught to

1:01:18

prescribe to be used one or multiple times a

1:01:20

day every day potentially for the rest of

1:01:22

your life. Right? That's

1:01:22

like telling somebody that you have a terminal illness that you're

1:01:25

treating. Mental illness is not

1:01:27

a terminal illness. Right?

1:01:29

It's

1:01:29

not going it's not

1:01:32

terminal. What it It's not

1:01:34

necessarily for life. If

1:01:37

you know that you don't have

1:01:38

a chemical balance you were born with,

1:01:40

then that

1:01:41

means that there are things you

1:01:43

can do to change

1:01:46

your outcomes. Right? If

1:01:48

you know that three doses of

1:01:50

MDMA with forty two hours of

1:01:52

psychotherapy

1:01:54

can take sixty seven percent of people with treatment resistant

1:01:56

PTSD and get them to a point of no

1:01:58

longer being

1:02:00

symptomatic within one year's

1:02:02

time that potentially

1:02:03

persists for much longer than

1:02:05

one year, then you

1:02:07

can change

1:02:10

your outcomes. Right? There is nothing more

1:02:12

powerful than being able

1:02:14

to understand that you can change your

1:02:17

outcomes. And then because that fosters a belief in

1:02:19

ourselves. It fosters a belief in our ability to have a say

1:02:22

in our own lives. Right? To

1:02:24

actually step into

1:02:25

the driver's seat. of

1:02:27

our own lives and take the wheel. What could be

1:02:29

more powerful than that? And and so on that

1:02:32

note, you know, what what

1:02:34

I was in college, I participated in psychedelic

1:02:36

medicine in the context of in my

1:02:38

fraternity, drinking heavily and

1:02:40

listening to the

1:02:42

Grateful Dead. which was an interesting experience. Some of it was good. Some

1:02:44

of it was not so good. But suffice to

1:02:46

say, it was

1:02:48

not under Physician

1:02:50

supervision. Physician supervision at all. With

1:02:53

that said, I

1:02:54

I do think it's important. I wanna spend a moment

1:02:58

here because I think

1:02:59

this is so promising, but in my opinion, the

1:03:01

message isn't, you know, go to Tulum and then, you

1:03:03

know, hook up with the first shaman you see at

1:03:05

the airport and go

1:03:08

for it. Can can you talk a little bit? because I think

1:03:10

it's also on you know, it it

1:03:14

without supervision,

1:03:14

without supervision this

1:03:16

is

1:03:16

also potentially unsafe and harmful to

1:03:19

your mental health. So question I've actually

1:03:21

been getting on the personal levels, a lot

1:03:23

of people are interested this. A lot

1:03:25

of people have trauma, a lot of people have unresolved issues,

1:03:27

and it's a great treatment

1:03:30

when

1:03:30

other treatments have been exhausted. You know, they're doing

1:03:32

therapy. It's just not working or what have

1:03:34

you. So where does the average person go? If they're if they're they're

1:03:36

thinking, I'm a candidate for this.

1:03:38

Where do they go? So if they're gonna

1:03:40

do this type of work, they're

1:03:43

doing

1:03:43

it in the right way under the proper

1:03:45

medical supervision? That's a great

1:03:48

question. So, I mean, where I

1:03:50

would send my loved ones, if they were struggling, I would send them somebody who

1:03:52

does ketamine assisted therapy or

1:03:55

ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

1:03:56

if

1:03:59

people are looking for providers

1:04:02

that that do this work, you can go

1:04:04

to

1:04:05

ketamine's ketamine

1:04:07

therapy, psychotherapy associates. KPA

1:04:09

dot org, I think, and there's a list of providers

1:04:12

there. And if you go

1:04:14

to my website, reach out to us, which

1:04:16

is apollo dot clinic, We do we

1:04:18

provide ketamine assisted therapy in my clinic, and

1:04:20

we can also recommend you to other people in your

1:04:22

area if we can't serve you. That

1:04:25

is the gold what I would say

1:04:27

is the gold standard now legal access to psychedelic

1:04:30

therapy. Most other

1:04:31

psychedelic medicines are not legal

1:04:33

at this time. So

1:04:36

if you wanted to access MDMA assisted you have

1:04:38

to contact maps dot org, which

1:04:40

is a multidisciplinary association for

1:04:44

psychedelic studies. PhD then you have

1:04:46

to enroll in a clinical trial, which is child, which takes time, and

1:04:48

it's not a quick process.

1:04:50

So if you're really struggling

1:04:52

with depression, PTSD,

1:04:55

anxiety disorders don't

1:04:56

don't do as well with

1:05:00

these treatments right

1:05:02

now. Takes a little more work,

1:05:04

but particularly PTSD and depression, there's a

1:05:06

lot of

1:05:07

evidence to support ketamine

1:05:08

assisted therapy is probably being the best option

1:05:10

for folks. Yes. Mhmm. And

1:05:12

so I would highly recommend that

1:05:15

there's also a lot of ketamine you can get

1:05:17

without therapy. I would not recommend

1:05:19

that someone. I would say, do it

1:05:21

with therapy. You will have better outcomes that

1:05:23

are longer lasting. PhD