0:00

Today's conversation features Gail Bannock

0:02

, a trailblazer with over 19

0:05

years in retail who , as Senior

0:07

Vice President of Merchandising at Indigo

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, transformed Indigo , kids and

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baby sectors to unparalleled success

0:14

in North America .

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So lucky for me , we

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had a great high

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, followed by a super low low

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, which was fascinating to see

0:24

all in one go . So again at Indigo

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you know , in 2023

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, we experienced this breach and

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that was the lowest low

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.

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In this episode we discuss leading through

0:36

both explosive growth and daunting

0:38

slumps . Gail shares her unfiltered

0:41

journey , offering up honest learnings

0:43

, and we delve into the

0:45

common pitfalls that hit first-time managers

0:47

and seasoned leaders alike . Let's

0:50

dive in . Welcome

0:53

to the podcast . Everyone we are in studio

0:56

with Gail and today

0:58

we're going to dive into all things people

1:00

team-related . You have a wealth

1:02

of knowledge and background as it relates

1:04

to retail experience and

1:07

rising through the ranks at several different

1:09

organizations . Before we dive into

1:11

any of that , I'm curious

1:13

to kind of get a little bit of your backstory

1:15

. So , if you think back to some pivotal lessons

1:17

and moments along your journey , what

1:20

has really been some shaping and

1:22

defining moments ?

1:23

I think the first time you become a manager is

1:25

definitely pivotal , and I even

1:28

believe that it's not the first time you become

1:30

a manager of one person . It's actually

1:32

when you get at least two people , because

1:35

now you can talk about your team . I

1:38

found , at least myself , I led differently

1:40

the moment I had two or more people

1:42

, and that's when you can start thinking

1:45

on behalf of other people on behalf

1:47

of in my case it was a department and

1:50

really kind of you

1:52

just change the way that you think as

1:54

a leader . The second one I would say

1:57

was again when I got a large team

1:59

. When you are leading people

2:01

, who are leading people , that

2:03

again is a huge shift , because

2:06

now it's not just about what you do , but

2:08

how do you help people be leaders

2:10

, which I found a completely different skill set

2:12

.

2:12

When you have tenure in your role , you see it all . You

2:14

see explosive growth moments

2:17

, you see headwinds , you see

2:19

when times aren't so good in companies

2:21

and you really have to learn how to lead

2:23

people through a number of different scenarios

2:26

. So let's just take

2:28

the highs . You know

2:30

as a leader , people

2:32

always think those are the great times . They're not always that

2:34

easy . What kind of lessons can

2:36

we learn about what's important to lead

2:38

people through explosive growth moments

2:41

within an organization ?

2:42

Well , I mean , the first one that comes to mind for me was

2:44

leading through COVID , which you

2:46

know was very different for all of us and

2:49

but for me , working at Indigo

2:51

, leading a team running

2:54

a toy department , nothing

2:56

was better for toys than COVID catapulted

2:59

the business . People , you know parents , are

3:01

beside themselves trying to entertain their kids with

3:03

puzzles and Lego and books

3:06

, anything that they can get their hands on . And so

3:08

the business really went through a huge

3:10

growth period . You know how do you

3:12

kind of keep people engaged

3:15

and working as hard as you need them

3:17

to , because of this growth that

3:19

nobody saw coming , that came out of nowhere , while

3:21

they're also going through these personal

3:24

issues . And

3:30

after a couple of weeks of working from home , I asked everybody

3:32

to turn on their cameras and we conducted all of our

3:34

meetings , days long meetings

3:36

, on camera . And I can tell you after

3:39

the fact , I had almost every single

3:41

one of the people on my team come to me and thank

3:43

me for enforcing

3:45

that rule and saying that they were alone

3:47

, they were lonely , they were exhausted

3:50

and they were , you

3:52

know , disengaged and they still had to work , but that

3:54

having to turn on the camera was

3:56

really huge courage

4:06

as a leader at the time to kind of take control of the situation and say my team

4:08

needs this , I need this , and we'll be better for it when

4:11

you're going through highs and lows

4:13

on a team connection and

4:15

trust is like the mainframe .

4:17

It's very easy to look at the results that you

4:20

have to achieve , whether it's the numbers , the deliverables

4:22

, the revenue , but budgeting

4:24

in a practice , as a leader , to

4:26

be always thinking what does my team

4:29

need this week , whether it's connection

4:32

, community conversation

4:34

, mentorship , support

4:36

. So when you think about

4:38

the lows , though , like what

4:41

are the principles ?

4:42

So , lucky for me , we

4:44

had a great high

4:46

followed by a super low low

4:49

, which was fascinating to see all in one

4:52

go . So again at Indigo you

4:54

know , in 2023 , we experienced

4:56

this breach and that was the

4:58

lowest low . I mean , obviously

5:00

it was detrimental to the business

5:03

because the site went down

5:05

and the business well , even the stores

5:07

went down . At first , you know , we

5:09

were the last system to kind of come

5:11

back , because there were other priorities

5:14

in terms of making sure that we

5:16

could sell product , that we could ship product

5:18

, that we could have visibility into the distribution

5:20

centers . So we

5:22

were kind of sitting ducks for a while . But

5:24

then , shortly after that , there was

5:27

a personal attack

5:29

on us because our personal

5:31

information was leaked , and

5:34

so first I had to

5:36

tell my team that there was a breach

5:38

. Nobody knew what that meant . The

5:40

first thing that was fascinating to me was to

5:43

see how everybody reacted

5:45

very differently , including myself

5:47

. So I have , through my

5:49

own life experience , have a habit of

5:51

working very well through

5:53

times of extreme pressure

5:56

, and my coping mechanism

5:58

is not to panic , and

6:01

I basically I get

6:03

through it and I allow myself . You

6:05

can't panic in a real emergency . You

6:07

have to actually pull yourself together and

6:09

work through it , and panicking is a luxury

6:11

that you can have once the

6:14

emergency is over , and so I

6:16

, as a leader , I approached it in the

6:18

same way as I do the rest of my life Not

6:20

necessarily healthy , by the way but

6:22

I basically managed

6:24

very calmly . And that

6:27

was not right for everybody . My

6:29

degree of calmness was

6:31

not what everybody needed and

6:34

I had to adjust along

6:36

the way because of the feedback that I was getting

6:38

from some people on my team that my

6:40

extreme level of calm , I would probably

6:43

say , didn't match their

6:46

level of panic .

6:47

So they were interpreting it as sort of like you're

6:49

not taking this seriously

6:51

.

6:51

They absolutely thought I wasn't taking it seriously

6:54

, and also I have a very

6:56

joking personality , and that didn't go

6:58

over very well , and I learned a very hard

7:00

lesson there to be sensitive

7:02

to everybody's emotions . There

7:05

was one moment in particular where I had

7:07

addressed the team . I

7:09

did not go well and I

7:11

then was faced with a decision whether to

7:13

apologize or not , and

7:16

after thinking about it , I

7:18

ultimately decided to apologize

7:21

, which , as a leader , was

7:23

a very hard decision to make . You

7:26

know , do I apologize for

7:28

my leadership style ? Do I apologize

7:30

for my approach ? Do I apologize for

7:32

who I am ? Yeah , it didn't go well

7:35

either , and

7:37

that was also a lesson for me , because

7:39

the apology wasn't enough , like why didn't

7:41

it go ?

7:42

well , they were just upset .

7:44

They were just upset . It wasn't about me , but

7:46

everybody was reacting very differently and

7:48

so there was really I

7:50

didn't even know how to behave , but

7:54

what I ? The reason I'm happy with the

7:56

decision to apologize was because

7:58

that was true to me as

8:00

a person and I feel like

8:02

as a leader , that is the most

8:05

important rule to lead

8:07

with heart and to lead like

8:09

you , like like you're a person , and

8:11

these were people that I genuinely liked , that

8:13

I genuinely , um , had

8:16

you know hope the best for , and

8:18

I had felt like I disappointed them or

8:20

I had let them down . And again , with

8:22

time passing , having talked to

8:24

my team after that , they all kind of , when everybody

8:26

calmed down and the pressure cooker kind of calmed

8:29

down , they were able to say we

8:31

understand now that you were , I

8:33

had never been through a breach , I didn't know what I was

8:36

doing and with time

8:38

, they kind of understood that as well .

8:40

So just that level of vulnerability and

8:42

authenticity and not having

8:44

to be stoic in that moment . How

8:48

important was it to be authentic

8:50

, plus informative , with

8:52

every detail you had along the way .

8:54

As a leader , you're expected to have answers or

8:58

you're expected to say I'm not sure . Let me get

9:00

back to you . There's nobody to ask

9:03

, nobody knows . I can't even say that

9:05

. I just have to say I don't know and leave it at

9:07

that , which is very uncomfortable . People

9:09

wanted answers , they had expectations

9:12

on how Indigo should have , you

9:15

know , actioned the breach

9:17

. I think , all in all , I think Indigo did

9:19

a great job and I think they were all . I think Indigo did a great job and I

9:21

think they were doing trying to do the best .

9:23

Well , you do a lot of mentoring now , so hindsight

9:26

is always 20 , 20 . But you

9:28

know what would be the takeaways that

9:30

you would impart on a mentee today ?

9:40

I think , just in general , providing your , your leader , with compassion is good and remembering

9:42

that there are people that hopefully they're trying to do the best by you and if

9:44

you're coaching or advising a leader

9:46

.

9:47

What would you advise them ? Just care .

9:49

Just care for your people . I feel like you can't go wrong

9:51

with that . If you care

9:53

for your people , then you're going to

9:55

be compassionate , you're going to be vulnerable

9:57

, you're going to be authentic , you're going

9:59

to give them what they need . And

10:02

and then the second thing is I

10:04

would impart on

10:07

them how different people

10:09

are and how you . You

10:11

need to pay attention

10:13

to one individual on your team

10:15

who may be reacting one way versus

10:17

somebody else who react was reacting a different

10:20

way . I mean even just by

10:22

age . I noticed people

10:24

in our company you know very

10:27

you know

10:29

older people were scared

10:31

because they didn't understand

10:34

what was happening . Kind

10:37

of middle-aged people were

10:39

kind of the most easygoing because they probably

10:42

had a fraud alert before and they

10:44

know that nothing happened , and so they were

10:47

a little bit calm , kind of like how I was approaching

10:49

it . And then very young people were petrified

10:51

because they're like , what if I can't get a house ? What if I ? You

10:53

know , what does this mean for my credit and and

10:56

so , and even within ages

10:58

, obviously , people react differently depending on

11:00

their personal circumstances and it's just a very

11:02

personal thing , something

11:04

that you wouldn't think , I didn't appreciate

11:06

at the time .

11:07

How personal this was the thing I'm

11:09

learning from what you said , too , is just to not

11:11

assume people are going

11:13

to handle it like you . Uh

11:15

, people feel the way you do and then even within

11:18

that dynamic . So once you make those assumptions

11:20

, it's like you have a composition

11:22

of communication and

11:25

a way to manage people that has to be different

11:27

. It's when you have to manage people

11:29

who aren't like you that

11:31

you grow the most as a people leader

11:34

.

11:34

Oh my God , I couldn't agree more . Probably

11:37

one of the biggest mistakes that I made as a young

11:39

manager was trying to make my

11:41

people me , yes , thinking that

11:43

I not that I was so great , but

11:45

that's the only thing that I knew how to do . I knew

11:48

how to make this presentation my

11:50

way , this pressure to just

11:52

turn everybody into I'm an extrovert

11:54

, so you need to be more extroverted and

11:57

learning and this is a huge

11:59

lesson that I've learned around just

12:01

helping people be the best they

12:04

can be , not me .

12:07

How did you learn how to do

12:09

that , though ? Did you lean on resources , or

12:11

was it just like a light bulb ? You're like

12:13

, oh , I see it now , like I have to tap

12:15

into more of their strength

12:17

, their communication style , their way

12:19

.

12:20

I think it actually had to do with

12:22

my own confidence as a leader , okay

12:24

. And I think when I kind of backed

12:26

off to say , okay , I don't need to prove myself anymore , I'm

12:29

good , I believe in myself and how

12:31

I lead and you are interesting

12:34

and good and smart

12:36

and powerful in your way , and

12:40

I just kind of observed them to

12:43

see that their way of doing it was actually

12:45

got from A to B . It just didn't take

12:48

the same path .

12:49

When's the moment we felt comfortable in

12:51

our own skin to give someone else the space

12:53

to be themselves ?

12:54

Yeah .

12:55

Right , that's like that's the switch . Yeah

12:57

, it's like I let go of the control

12:59

because I trusted myself .

13:01

It completely changed the way that I lead

13:04

to understand

13:06

. Okay , so what are you struggling with ? How

13:08

do I help you present yourself better

13:10

? How do I help you advance ? How do I help in

13:13

the way that is going to work for you , Because trying

13:15

to do it my way is not

13:17

going to work .

13:18

When we allow ourselves to be authentic and

13:20

we see ourselves in our own authenticity

13:22

, we can then see other people . A hundred percent

13:25

Leading leaders

13:27

. Let's talk about that dynamic . What

13:29

were some of the early lessons in that

13:31

journey for you ? So ?

13:32

I think when you're leading leaders , you

13:36

need to step up your communication to

13:38

a whole other level . That's what I found , where

13:40

you know it's one thing to find

13:42

yourself in a conversation with someone and find yourself

13:44

in a situation and then react and

13:47

do whatever you do and say whatever you say . It's

13:49

another to talk to somebody completely

13:51

out of context and

13:54

predict a conversation or predict

13:57

a problem . So now

13:59

I have to think about how are you

14:01

as a leader ? How can you be better

14:03

as a leader ? What is a scenario

14:06

that you're going to struggle with or

14:08

, you know , have to deal with ? And then

14:10

how can I tell you how

14:12

to think , how to , what to say

14:14

, how to approach it , what to try ? And

14:17

then not only that , but I then also have to equip

14:19

you with multiple responses

14:22

to multiple responses from the other

14:24

person In that role you

14:26

A .

14:27

Your level of foresight down the road strategically

14:29

has to be a lot sharper than

14:31

in the previous roles . Then

14:34

B , you almost have to create

14:37

frameworks to help people make decisions

14:39

yeah , right . And then you have to anticipate where their gaps make decisions

14:41

yeah Right . And then you have to anticipate where their

14:43

gaps will be yeah , it's like

14:45

coaching on a scenario

14:47

base . Yes , when you

14:49

moved into that VP role , like , where

14:52

did you see your growth

14:54

? So if you were to kind of just define

14:56

your growth through that chapter

14:58

.

14:59

Where did you grow the most . When

15:01

I accepted the role of VP at Indigo

15:03

, I was petrified because I

15:05

had never been a merchant and I was

15:07

about to lead a team of merchants . And

15:10

what I what I love about that

15:12

role was that it was kind of

15:14

the first job I had

15:16

where , as a leader , where

15:19

I didn't know how to do their job , yeah

15:21

, and so that inherently

15:24

created a different dynamic , which I

15:26

love because it allowed me

15:28

to be the manager that I want to be and I wasn't busy

15:30

training people and I wasn't , you

15:32

know , up until then , every job I'd had

15:35

. I knew how to do every single

15:37

job there . I could do it better than anybody

15:39

, I could do it faster than anybody , and

15:41

so this was I had no choice

15:43

but to be a very

15:46

trusting , hands-off

15:49

, you know , collaborative

15:51

leader , which I love . As

15:54

a VP , I was able to

15:56

just focus on the people and

15:59

my job was to develop

16:02

the team , remove roadblocks so

16:04

that was dealing with my fellow VPs

16:06

and the other , the rest of the company and

16:08

remove roadblocks so that they could do their job , but

16:10

it didn't include actually

16:13

training them on how to do their job .

16:15

So , first and foremost , the minute you

16:17

come out of I'm not the functional

16:20

expert I

16:22

have seen so many women struggle

16:24

with that . Well , where's my value lie ? Because

16:27

I used to be the doer , I

16:29

used to be the solver , and

16:31

making that shift

16:33

into that role through

16:35

that period , you're like where's

16:38

my value ?

16:39

Did you have that experience A hundred percent ? When I

16:41

came in , I had

16:44

incredible imposter syndrome , like who am I

16:46

to come in here and tell these people what to do , because

16:48

I don't know the first thing about buying

16:50

.

16:51

It's very strange to come into a role

16:53

where you're not sure what you're

16:56

supposed to do , but now your job is like you're

16:58

a force multiplier . So how can you make 10

17:00

people more powerful

17:03

in their roles because of the ? You

17:05

know , the people who report to them

17:07

and the great resources that they have

17:09

at their disposal and innovations that they can

17:11

unlock , and so ?

17:14

but the reason .

17:14

I ask that is ? It's just . It's a huge leap

17:17

for people and when we're identified

17:19

as being , you know , great

17:21

IC or great deep in

17:23

expertise , yeah , I know that's a hard one

17:26

for folks . I completely agree . Yeah

17:28

, what do you do for

17:30

yourself to manage

17:33

to a level of when

17:35

the stakes are high , you can still

17:37

remain clear ?

17:38

I mean , I have a very full life . I'm

17:41

in a loving relationship . My husband

17:44

is amazing . I have three kids

17:46

and they take up a lot of my time . I

17:48

have certain hobbies that I

17:50

like to do that are

17:53

strange and quirky , but they

17:55

give me peace . What are they ? Well

17:58

, I love making photo

18:00

books for my family . Oh , okay , and

18:03

I laugh because it's basically I'm basically doing PowerPoint

18:05

for fun , but I just love

18:07

it . It's very much a creative outlet for me

18:09

and I spend hours doing

18:12

it and then I have something to show for it , which I love

18:14

, and I feel like I'm passing on something to my

18:16

kids that they'll remember forever , and we

18:18

reference these books all the time to

18:21

see what happened , when and how somebody looked

18:23

and what they did , and so it , like

18:25

, is a gift that keeps giving what you're

18:27

talking about is very important .

18:29

I think about women who are in high

18:31

pressure roles , who have to think all

18:33

day long and be very strategic with their

18:35

minds . They have to like

18:38

.

18:38

How do we tap into reflection

18:40

and creativity in a different way

18:42

of generating self-generating

18:44

energy unless we're doing things like this , Now

18:47

that you're saying that , it must give me energy

18:49

and I know it brings me joy and I know it relaxes

18:52

me , especially me . I'm an overthinker

18:54

. I think all the time . There's something going on

18:56

in my head all the time , and so having that time

18:59

to just think is this the right

19:01

pink and should that butterfly be there

19:03

?

19:03

And you know . So where's

19:05

your next version

19:08

of growth ? Like if you think about hey , I've

19:10

you know . Look back in your tenure , look

19:12

at who you've evolved into . Um , you

19:15

look out in terms of your own personal

19:17

growth or skill growth , like what excites

19:19

you .

19:20

Because I don't know what's going to happen next . I

19:23

think the first step is going to be this

19:25

what I was saying to you , like this time

19:27

of yes for me , I'm just saying I'm

19:29

saying yes to this . I

19:41

love talking to you , I am saying yes to a bunch of other opportunities and just being open , letting

19:43

the universe speak to me of what's next , and I hope that whatever is next , I know it will

19:45

be , I know I will grow through it because I won't do it otherwise

19:47

. I don't want to do the same thing . I very rarely

19:49

have done the same thing and I enjoy

19:51

that , and I enjoy that being a little

19:54

bit uncomfortable about what I'm doing , and

19:56

so I don't know , but I'm

19:58

excited for it , yeah .

20:00

Yeah , the nebulous new

20:02

. It brings butterflies again

20:04

. It brings a little

20:07

bit of nerves in a good way , yeah

20:09

, feels like you're , for me it

20:11

feels , like I'm expanding into something new

20:14

that doesn't feel comfortable .

20:15

But I haven't .

20:16

you know I don't have the playbook from you know

20:18

10 years to draw on , but

20:20

I'm excited for that chapter of growth .

20:23

I am too . I was talking to somebody

20:25

the other day and I was saying

20:27

that , in my experience , you

20:30

absolutely take . You don't

20:32

even know when you're growing . You don't even know when you're growing

20:34

, you don't even know when you're learning , and it's

20:36

not until the next job , or even

20:38

the next next job , that you realize

20:40

oh , that's what

20:42

that was about . That was . That was good

20:45

that I did that , and so I

20:47

feel like , even though , to your point , even though I

20:49

don't know what's next , I

20:51

know that I will take the learnings that

20:53

I've had and apply them somehow , in some

20:55

way , to the next thing .

20:57

Well , we've learned so much from your

21:00

incredible arc and your career

21:02

, and your personal wisdom too .

21:03

Thank you so much . This was so fun .

21:06

Thank you for joining us . Don't forget to follow

21:08

us on Instagram and LinkedIn , where

21:10

we transform the wisdom from our podcast into

21:13

practical tips , tools and takeaways

21:15

for your leadership journey . Find

21:17

us at gritgracepodcast

21:19

. See you next week .