0:00

On the Grit and Grace podcast , we

0:02

shine the spotlight on the stories behind the

0:04

leader Money negotiation

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. Who's great at it , who's not ?

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That question comes up all the time how

0:13

much money do you think I am worth ?

0:16

Joining us today is Jocelyn Yacoub , the

0:18

trailblazing CEO behind Yacoub

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Elite Search . In 1997

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, she flipped the model on headhunting by

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acting as the agent to the talent . In

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this episode we explore the hot topic

0:30

of salary negotiation and the art

0:32

of leadership . Presence Plus

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, jocelyn offers her frank and honest

0:36

take on a critical topic . Are

0:38

you truly ready for that promotion and

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level up ? Get ready for an action-packed

0:43

conversation . Let's dive in

0:45

. I was thinking about how

0:48

you've paved the way for so many

0:50

top performers and leaders

0:52

. You've been in business for 25

0:54

years . Can you talk

0:57

a little bit on your own personal stamina

0:59

? You as a leader , a CEO , a

1:01

founder ? What if you had to

1:03

do in your life to sustain this

1:05

business and reinvent yourself and

1:07

to keep the passion alive ?

1:10

Paving the way , so

1:13

I like how you framed that . I

1:16

was young , I was very naive . I

1:21

decided that I wanted to flip

1:23

the model of what the executive

1:25

search world is all about

1:28

, so I naturally

1:30

became curious

1:32

about how people become

1:36

top performers In

1:40

any job that you do . My first

1:42

job was being a cashier . How

1:45

can you be a better cashier than your friend

1:47

next door ?

1:48

Wherever you are right , Whatever role you're

1:50

in .

1:51

Whatever role you're in , I

1:55

believe that because

1:58

I was naive and I didn't know

2:00

what it takes to

2:03

start your own business , many

2:05

people have asked me had I known what

2:07

I know today , 25

2:09

years ago , what I have done this ? Absolutely not

2:11

.

2:12

Naiveness is a good thing for entrepreneurs

2:15

.

2:15

Yeah , 100%

2:17

, and I always

2:20

knew I was an entrepreneur . I tell

2:22

people I was very unemployable

2:24

at a young age because I

2:26

was just overly creative . I was

2:28

ambitious , I

2:31

wanted to make my own rules , and

2:34

you can't do that in a large corporate

2:36

environment . And

2:38

I think that's really what motivated

2:41

me to start my own business at

2:43

a very young age , because I needed

2:46

to change the rules about what

2:48

headhunting was all about . And

2:51

headhunting is you get a call

2:53

and

2:56

you're the candidate . So Jen gets the call

2:58

and I'm trying to sell you

3:00

a job and I'm thinking you

3:03

don't even know Jen , so how can you

3:05

sell her a job ? You know that this

3:07

is the right job for her . So that was the first

3:09

thing that the flaw in the system

3:11

. The flaw in the system and

3:14

secondly , at the time it's

3:16

a commission based environment . It

3:19

was very sales focused , so

3:21

the firm that I was recruiting

3:23

at you were on commission , so

3:26

you only got paid if Jen got the job

3:28

, and so that was a

3:30

huge flaw in the system , for sure

3:32

, and

3:37

I quickly became

3:39

really good at

3:41

getting people excited and really good

3:44

at helping

3:46

people figure out that there could

3:49

be better opportunities for them

3:51

than where they are today . So

3:53

that's really how my early

3:56

stages in my career started , because

3:58

when I flip the model and they

4:00

say , like , how did you flip the model

4:02

? I decided to act

4:05

as the agent to the talent . Many

4:08

called me the Jerry Maguire of

4:10

the search world at an early stage

4:13

, because if you remember the movie Jerry

4:15

Maguire , tom

4:17

Cruise did not have a client , right , and

4:19

if he got that guy , yeah

4:21

, show me the money . Then he was

4:24

going to become famous . So it's

4:26

, it's exactly what happened to

4:28

me . That really tells

4:30

you how old I am . But

4:32

when that , most people listening will relate to

4:34

the Jerry Maguire movie , right , and that movie

4:37

taught me so much about

4:40

what it's like to feel vulnerable

4:43

, yeah , what it's like

4:45

to be scared , and

4:48

the pressure that you're

4:50

in to make sure

4:53

that your talent

4:55

gets the right job , and

4:58

I think that that played a huge role in

5:02

the foundation

5:05

of how I decided to create my

5:07

new business .

5:08

As you're talking about all that and I'm

5:11

just thinking about who might be listening right now

5:13

how do you see top

5:15

talent , like , how do you know you

5:18

are speaking to somebody with a

5:20

high potential in them ? Like

5:22

, what do you see ? This is your gift , you can

5:24

see it in people , you can spot it . What

5:26

is it that you see in them ?

5:28

Talent , to me , is

5:31

measured by proven

5:34

success . Right , right .

5:36

Because you can . You can see patterns in people's

5:38

history 100 percent Right .

5:41

My mother always taught me tell me who

5:43

your friends are and I'll tell you who you are

5:45

Right , and that played a big role

5:47

in me developing

5:49

my relationships , because great

5:51

people surround

5:53

themselves with great people most of the time

5:56

and

5:58

you become part of that community

6:00

, right ? So really

6:03

getting to know people and engaging

6:05

conversations is something that I'm still working

6:07

on . It took me 25 years to perfect

6:09

. What types of questions

6:12

are you asking people ? Right To find

6:14

out what you need to know ?

6:17

I have to assume that because of that , you

6:19

get to see where people fall

6:21

short in certain skills and or excel

6:24

in other skills , and I kind of wanted to

6:26

talk about a few major components

6:28

where leaders really either

6:30

hit the mark or miss the mark on

6:33

leadership and , specifically , negotiation

6:35

.

6:36

Negotiation is an art . Yeah

6:39

, it's a skill . It's

6:41

. It's something , that it's

6:44

a process in your life . Early

6:46

years of negotiation are usually

6:49

terrible . I was a terrible negotiator

6:51

and I started my business because the first thing people

6:53

wanted me to do was discount my rate and

6:56

I felt like I needed to because I was just starting

6:58

off right . Right , so that

7:00

can parlay into . Early in your career

7:03

. You don't really have a lot of negotiation

7:05

power because you're very new at what you do

7:07

. Your negotiation power

7:10

is all about the confidence

7:12

that you have that you're the best

7:15

at what you do , because once you have

7:17

that , you're going to show up differently

7:19

in an interview , you're going to show up

7:21

differently in conversations , and

7:24

the best negotiating power is

7:26

that you don't have to leave where you are

7:28

today . So there's

7:30

two parts . So I'm going to

7:32

. The first part is you're being headhunted

7:35

. You're happy

7:37

where you are . It's my role

7:39

as your agent to find

7:42

what I call is your wound , and that's

7:44

my patented secret

7:47

recipe to what I do is . I

7:49

believe everybody has a wound and

7:51

it's my job to figure out what that is . And

7:54

depending on how big your wound is is depending

7:56

on how much negotiation power that you have

7:58

. So most of the time , I'm

8:00

dealing with top talent

8:03

who are

8:05

excelling at what they do

8:07

, and it's

8:10

my role to move

8:12

them from one place to another , which

8:14

means that they're going to be

8:16

looking for a major difference

8:18

, financially and

8:22

lifestyle wise , and , most importantly

8:24

, jen , I think now more than ever , people's

8:26

values cannot be compromised . And

8:28

once you have those three things figured

8:31

out , how much money do

8:33

you think I am worth ? That's

8:35

that question comes up all the

8:37

time . Yeah , so to go

8:39

back to the negotiating power , I

8:42

coach people for a living , naturally , and

8:46

the more confidence that

8:48

you have , and I motivate

8:51

people , and especially

8:53

women , because women are known to be the

8:55

worst negotiators and I don't

8:57

allow that . It's

9:00

. Negotiating should not be a gender .

9:03

It is all rooted in their own personal value and sense

9:05

of words . Okay , so that's the wobbliness

9:08

If I have a wound where I'm not

9:10

valuing some part of myself and

9:13

it's that leaves me more vulnerable

9:16

to not being a strong

9:18

negotiator Is that what you say ?

9:19

Yes .

9:20

Yes , right , yes .

9:21

How does it show up ? It shows up in your

9:23

conversations , it shows up in your

9:25

facial expressions , it shows up in

9:27

your ability not to feel that

9:30

you are confident enough

9:32

about a certain wound that you may have

9:34

Right , and the wound could be

9:36

like I

9:38

don't feel like my current leader today

9:41

is teaching me anything Right

9:43

and I'm looking for a much

9:46

more inspiring leader , and that's the

9:48

number one reason

9:50

why people leave their jobs it's

9:52

the leader that they work for , and

9:54

I and I've become a leader expert at people

9:56

expert and I stress

9:59

to everyone If

10:01

you're not working for the right leader

10:03

, you will not feel inspired

10:05

or successful . So my role

10:08

has now become more of connecting

10:10

the right leaders together , more

10:13

so than being a headhunter . And you

10:15

know , you asked me that at the very beginning , like how

10:17

do you know that this person is a top performer

10:20

? It's an obvious . It's

10:22

an obvious because a top performer achieves

10:24

results . A top performer

10:27

can quantify their

10:30

results as much as they qualify

10:32

for them . A top performer can share

10:34

success stories . A top performer

10:36

can provide the

10:39

new employer with reasons why

10:41

they need to be hired

10:43

, and that parlays into

10:45

their negotiating power , right

10:47

? So if I was to sum this up , the

10:52

best negotiating power

10:54

that a candidate would have is

10:56

that they're so confident about their abilities

10:59

to do the job that

11:02

the salary that they require is

11:04

a must have period . But

11:07

it is very important to know

11:09

your worth , yes , to believe

11:11

in your worth .

11:13

I think it's even even that practice of

11:15

those tips , of that script

11:17

that you just gave , is like you should

11:19

be rehearsed and being able to know

11:21

your results per your value

11:23

, like you could give that talk

11:26

at a cocktail party 100% , even

11:28

at a cocktail party or a networking

11:31

event or , you know , at

11:33

any event where you're meeting somebody new

11:35

.

11:36

When they ask you , what do you do ? How

11:38

do you respond ?

11:39

And how prepared are you ?

11:40

and how prepared are you to respond to that ?

11:42

To respond to that in a way that services

11:44

your value and your confidence and your

11:46

worth in the moment . Right , it's kind

11:48

of leading me to the next thing that I wanted

11:50

to talk about , which is this kind of mysterious

11:52

box that we call executive presence

11:54

. And you

11:57

know , I've worked for leaders the minute they walk

11:59

into a room mail or female you just

12:01

know there's a presence , there's a quality

12:03

to them . What

12:05

do you see in today's landscape with people

12:08

who have strong executive presence ? What

12:10

qualities are they demonstrating ?

12:12

having the presence to command a room

12:14

, to be

12:16

heard , to have

12:19

something to say

12:21

that others will want to hear , and

12:24

to be able to navigate through

12:26

a group of people . So

12:35

there's a whole list of things . On executive presence

12:37

, I'm happy to give tips all the time , but most importantly is how are you

12:39

received and and who is your audience and

12:41

how did they feel after they

12:43

met you ? So oftentimes we'll

12:46

get feedback from

12:48

from a meeting

12:51

that occurred and

12:54

anyone that's represented by Yaku . You'll

12:56

never hear they didn't have executive presence because

12:59

they wouldn't be presented if

13:01

they did not . Right , so

13:04

that's the magic , right ? So

13:07

, however , they could feedback as

13:09

they weren't confident in their answers . And

13:12

that goes back to your point . Yeah , like

13:15

, be prepared to validate why you

13:18

are a top performer .

13:19

I think that also in you know what I just

13:22

know for myself and other leaders that I

13:24

admire , you have to cultivate

13:26

that on the inside and have

13:28

that kind of core steadiness .

13:30

I don't have the stats , but I can tell

13:33

you that most top

13:35

performers are athletes . Having

13:38

that team sport to

13:41

off balance your

13:43

day to day corporate life

13:46

is really , really , really crucial

13:48

, and

13:51

those that are not into sports have to be passionate about

13:53

something . So I think I think to

13:55

your point . Working on yourself requires a lot

13:57

, and it's it's mental

14:00

health month awareness . I

14:03

just I just did a very simple

14:06

post . Like you need to take care

14:08

of your mind as much as you take care of your

14:10

bodies , and that's really , really crucial

14:12

. I think that plays a huge role

14:14

in what leaders

14:17

have to do to

14:20

show up for other people , for

14:22

other people , because are you inspired ?

14:25

And it's a habit , and a mindful habit

14:27

, and it's easy to be , you know , burnt

14:29

out , overworked , but it's on us

14:31

to turn it around . Absolutely

14:34

yeah , lead a better life . The

14:36

last piece I wanted to talk about do

14:38

you ever see people chasing

14:40

the role for the wrong reason ? Always

14:42

, and how ? Should people ask themselves

14:45

the question of why am

14:47

I wanting this ? Like what could be

14:49

some advice that people can just take away to

14:51

know do I want to have this role

14:53

or do I want to prove that I can

14:55

have this role ?

14:56

Like chasing the role for the wrong

14:58

reasons is probably happening

15:02

more in organizations these days

15:04

than it should be . Because

15:06

of people's ambition , because

15:08

of people's ego , because

15:11

everyone is so title-driven , so

15:14

that would be the wrong reason

15:16

, right ? Of

15:18

course , chasing

15:21

the job that you want has

15:24

to come with a lot of

15:26

work , and

15:29

how are you going to be successful

15:31

in that next role ? How ?

15:32

do people know that they're doing it for the

15:34

right reasons ? It should be . That body

15:37

of work inspires me . I

15:39

could put my own kind of stamp

15:42

on that strategically or I think I could

15:44

solve the problem for the company Like . That's how I

15:46

look at it .

15:47

Sadly , I see too much in my world . But

15:49

how are you being received

15:53

in that role ? So

15:55

does the CEO of the company think that

15:57

you should have your boss's job ? Because

15:59

you're going to have to report to him directly or

16:01

her , if you do get that job

16:03

? And so it's really

16:05

about understanding . I might want the

16:07

next job and I might think I'm ready for

16:10

the next job , but am I the right

16:12

person for that leader ? And

16:15

that's huge , right . So whenever

16:17

the leader changes , everything changes

16:20

. You might be ready for the next level , you

16:22

might feel like you're ready for the next level , but as

16:24

a next level you right . So

16:26

it takes a lot of

16:28

self-awareness , but it takes a lot

16:30

of understanding

16:34

from the leaders around

16:36

you or the clients

16:38

around you . And

16:40

in my firm , for example , my juniors

16:42

might want to be frontline

16:44

with the clients , but do the clients

16:47

want to work with them directly ? Period

16:49

, right . So how are you received

16:52

in a large organization ? The

16:54

VP wants to become an executive vice

16:57

president , but then they're sitting at the table with

16:59

the board members . How are they received ? So

17:01

there's a lot of

17:03

discovery around that .

17:05

Well , I think that perspective brings

17:08

a lot of perspective to anyone listening to this

17:10

. I don't know people think of it .

17:11

I hope so . Yeah , I think it . I mean , I just learned a

17:13

lot listening .

17:15

I am so inspired by what

17:17

you've done , how you've opened

17:20

doors for so many people and how you care deeply

17:22

about people's progress and growth and

17:25

you're doing remarkable things . Thank

17:27

you so much for joining .

17:29

Thank you for having me . I

17:32

do this naturally . I

17:34

love to share , I love

17:36

to inspire others . I love . I would

17:39

love it if someone could learn a

17:42

lesson that took me 10

17:44

years to learn just by listening

17:46

. And you have to

17:49

live and learn . Yeah , you know , there are

17:51

no limits to what you can do , but

17:53

give yourself time . Absolutely

17:56

Amazing .

17:56

Yeah , so let's finish it off on mastery . Yes

17:59

, I love it . I love mastery

18:02

you are too .

18:03

Thank you for having me here today . It's been so much fun .

18:05

Thank you for joining us . Don't forget to follow

18:08

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18:10

we transform the wisdom from our podcast

18:12

into practical tips , tools and takeaways

18:14

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18:16

us at gritgracepodcast

18:18

. See you next week .