0:00

On the Grit and Grace podcast . We

0:02

shine the spotlight on the stories behind

0:04

the leader .

0:05

I find that there is a woman who comes to

0:08

it wanting a change , feeling

0:10

I'm not quite on the right path , but for

0:12

others it is the sense of I'm

0:15

not fully showing up as myself . I

0:17

feel like I'm holding back . I feel like I'm trying

0:19

to fit a mold within this

0:21

role instead of being my authentic self in

0:23

this role .

0:24

Are you feeling like you're at the crossroads of change

0:26

? This episode's for you

0:28

. As leaders , we

0:31

often iterate on our products or

0:33

our lines of business , but how often

0:35

do we iterate on ourselves ? What

0:38

if there is more within us trying to emerge

0:40

? Join me as I

0:42

sit down with founder and visionary Kena

0:45

Peronjapay . We'll explore

0:47

how to navigate the seasons of change and

0:49

discuss real-world practical

0:51

tips that you can apply when you are

0:54

ready to meet the next version of you . Your

0:57

next chapter awaits , kena

0:59

. Thank you so much for being with us today

1:01

. I was recommended to

1:03

you by a colleague of mine . You just

1:05

said you're a phenomenal entrepreneur

1:08

, woman , pioneer , and

1:10

I just wanted to kind of just open

1:12

with a bit of the backstory so that you could , in

1:14

your own words , kind of share your journey and

1:17

kind of where you started from , how

1:19

you kind of rose through your businesses , ultimately

1:22

, what happened and , more importantly

1:24

, how is that now informing your work ?

1:26

Thank you for those kind words . I

1:29

hadn't really had a lot

1:31

of entrepreneurial influence

1:33

in my life , but I always had this

1:36

sort of longing to do something creative

1:38

and I couldn't really pinpoint what that

1:40

was . So after I did

1:43

my BSc in environmental science

1:45

and geography , I decided

1:48

against the typical next path and

1:51

I started to explore what a

1:54

role in the business world would look like

1:56

, and that sort of

1:58

that following the thread has

2:00

been a theme through my whole life , and

2:02

so I spent most of my career

2:04

from then on working in

2:06

the retail industry on the merchandising

2:09

and marketing side . I've worked for big

2:11

brands like Gap and Old Navy

2:13

, banana Republic , joe

2:15

Fresh and had

2:18

some entrepreneurial ventures

2:20

in there as well , so co-founded

2:23

a business called Bricka , which

2:25

was all about highlighting

2:28

under the radar artisans and designers . I

2:31

often say that there is

2:33

what is on your LinkedIn profile

2:36

, and then there is

2:38

a whole life that happens . That's not

2:40

on the bullet points in your LinkedIn profile

2:42

, and I feel like for me

2:45

, my professional journey has

2:47

now come to a point

2:50

where both of those things have interwoven

2:52

and led me to where I am today .

2:55

I think everybody gets to a crossroads or a seasons

2:57

of change , whether they're in a job or career

2:59

or something , and they

3:01

can feel there's another chapter of

3:04

their life . Like something is trying to birth

3:06

. Yes , how would you

3:08

advise people to kind of find that for themselves

3:10

? Is there any techniques or tips that

3:12

you offer people through some of your programs when

3:14

they're really up against that crossroads

3:16

, trying to figure out what

3:18

is that thread that I need to pull for myself

3:21

?

3:21

I think for me it's about remembering that

3:23

there is a part of you that is

3:25

naturally drawn to certain things Like

3:27

that part of you exists and it

3:30

may have been programmed out of you because it's

3:32

like go to school , go take this

3:34

degree , now go get a job , and

3:36

so that side of you that has

3:38

interests and curiosities and

3:42

that has this desire to

3:44

explore and to try

3:46

new things , that part of you

3:48

still exists . So that's sort of like the first phase

3:50

is to remind yourself that exists and

3:52

then it's having the bravery to go

3:54

and do some of those things right

3:56

, like to go , like to

3:59

write an article . If you love to

4:01

write and if you've always had sort of a natural inclination

4:03

, is to start to explore

4:05

. And I think one of the hardest

4:08

things for women , especially

4:11

as you become more experienced- and

4:13

you become more successful in . The sort

4:15

of thing that you do is

4:17

feeling like you're new

4:19

again at something .

4:21

Oh , wow , right , yes .

4:24

I think that's like a very difficult thing

4:26

for us to wrap our heads around . It

4:28

feels very uncomfortable when we've

4:30

worked so hard to achieve

4:32

this level of success and to have people see

4:34

us a certain way and then to go and

4:37

, you know , not toss that out , but

4:39

put it aside in order to show up

4:41

in a new way . That is a

4:43

very uncomfortable feeling for women . So

4:45

I think it's acknowledging that and saying

4:48

how important

4:50

is it for me to live a full life

4:52

right ? Like , really , how important

4:55

is that ? And if your answer

4:57

is it's very important which I would hope

4:59

for most people it is then

5:01

are you willing to go

5:04

through that discomfort , to accept your

5:06

mediocrity when you're starting something

5:08

new in order

5:11

to live that life that you

5:13

desire to live right ? It's

5:15

a trade-off , but it's absolutely

5:18

a worthwhile one .

5:19

And why do you think it's so hard for people

5:21

to be back in the mediocrity

5:24

or the beginner's awareness again ? Is

5:26

it fear ? Is it that we're

5:28

just comfortable in the familiar

5:31

?

5:32

I think what happens is , as we

5:34

get older , especially even into

5:36

just into our 30s , we

5:38

start to question what success

5:41

means to us , and

5:43

then we start to realize that , okay

5:46

, maybe success isn't exactly

5:49

for me the way it's

5:51

been defined , right , and

5:53

there's like a resistance

5:56

that happens , you know , because you're like

5:58

no , but I'm on this path and I'm doing all

6:00

the right things , and

6:03

so I think that that's where that comes from is

6:05

again like this over identification

6:07

of the role

6:09

and the success that we've achieved and

6:12

what it may mean if we

6:14

start to , you know , choose a different

6:16

path choose a different path or

6:19

change how we identify with the

6:21

role .

6:21

Yes , I know there's a lot of women who

6:23

they do . They are

6:25

in that VP role . They've you know , and

6:28

they're making great money

6:30

and they're it's affording them a

6:32

great place with their family . But

6:35

maybe the crossroads does not change your job

6:37

. Maybe the crossroads is don't over

6:39

. Identify with the value other

6:41

people are placing on you , or it's like

6:43

what's hugging you every day to

6:46

your work ? Yes , and the minute you can kind of

6:48

heal those identifications or

6:50

those old patterns , you can

6:52

be a bit more free in the role . Yes , and 100%

6:55

it doesn't mean you have to one up and quit your job

6:57

tomorrow .

6:58

Yes , and I'm so glad you said that , because

7:00

even in my group programs I

7:02

find that there is a woman who comes to

7:04

it wanting a change . Right

7:06

, feeling I'm not quite on the right path , but

7:09

for others is the sense of I'm

7:11

not fully showing up as myself . I

7:13

feel like I'm holding back , I feel like I'm trying

7:15

to fit a mold within this

7:17

role instead of being my authentic self in

7:20

this role . So I'm very glad you brought that up because I

7:23

think that's a huge piece of it is reflecting

7:25

on like how do I want to show up , how do I

7:27

want to lead ? And you can absolutely

7:30

do that right where you are , once you've done that

7:32

inner work .

7:33

And I am thinking of that woman who does

7:35

have the great VP role or director

7:37

role or executive role

7:39

, and she is feeling

7:42

tired and exhausted and maybe

7:44

it's not because of the job , but maybe it's because

7:46

of the way she's associating

7:48

herself in the role or looking for

7:51

the validation from , you

7:53

know , everyone in the room . What

7:55

are some real practical ways

7:57

that people can start to make a change

7:59

and loosening that identification

8:01

?

8:02

Yeah , I mean , I think

8:04

the first one is it's

8:06

so simple , but start taking some time

8:08

for yourself . Yes , I

8:11

am amazed at how many

8:14

women do not take

8:16

any time for themselves . But if you

8:18

don't give yourself space to reflect

8:20

, to think , to see

8:23

what comes up , then you're

8:25

just sort of caught on that hamster wheel

8:27

. So the first thing I would say is and

8:29

it can't just be like once every two

8:31

weeks or once a month , like you need , ideally

8:34

daily time for yourself

8:36

, right , so that you can listen

8:39

to that inner voice , listen to your intuition

8:41

, see , you know , reflect on

8:43

what feels good and what doesn't feel good . We need

8:45

to get some clarity first , to begin

8:47

with , yeah , and

8:49

then I think it's like asking yourself

8:52

what you need , and sometimes

8:54

that involves boundaries , sometimes

8:56

that involves support , you know

8:58

. But the next step

9:00

if I were going to , you know , sort of

9:02

give two steps it would be carve

9:05

out space for yourself , critical yeah

9:08

.

9:08

And second would be to ask yourself

9:10

what do I need I see this

9:12

all the time with really ambitious people

9:14

, especially that I've had to

9:16

kind of overcome a lot of adversity

9:19

and they

9:21

can keep going and keep going , and then there's going to be

9:23

something in life that happens and

9:25

it's going to force you to stop .

9:27

Yeah , and look .

9:28

I've had that for my life . And I know you

9:30

have to . Can

9:33

we talk a little bit about what

9:35

happens if you don't take the space and time

9:37

Like how does life serve you up the lessons you need

9:40

? You've come through

9:42

a lot of and you've

9:44

had to draw on a lot of great inner resources

9:46

to do that and I would just love to explore that conversation

9:49

a little bit .

9:50

Yes , you know , I think , like I'm making

9:52

this running list of things that they don't teach

9:54

you in school and that your parents may not have

9:56

you know it's not to blame them

9:58

at all . It's like you can't teach

10:00

what you don't yourself know , right

10:02

, but I'm making this running list of

10:04

things I want my daughter to know . Yeah , and

10:07

so many of them are things that we

10:09

learn the hard way , right , that they're things

10:11

that nobody told

10:14

us and or you

10:16

know weren't emphasized , and

10:19

and then , when you know them

10:21

, you realize how

10:23

powerful they are in terms

10:26

of living your life . You know , forget work

10:28

, forget family , forget all those components

10:30

, but just being in your life and living it

10:32

and leading yourself

10:35

through your life . You know , and

10:37

for me , I think you

10:41

know , you sort of alluded to the very

10:44

significant upheaval

10:47

I would call it that happened in my life

10:49

, which was when I was 30 , my

10:51

husband , who was my high school sweetheart

10:54

. He became very suddenly

10:56

critically ill and was

10:58

in the ICU for four months , like

11:00

on his deathbed , and

11:04

it was so shocking and so confusing

11:08

and was

11:11

sort of a very acute situation

11:13

where I realized everything had now

11:15

changed forever . But it

11:18

didn't stop there . So he

11:20

by the . When he was able to come out of the hospital

11:22

, he was not

11:26

back to normal . He had a chronic

11:28

condition that we knew wasn't

11:30

going to really improve , Right

11:33

. So it was something that we just had to live with , and

11:36

we also knew that he was not going

11:38

to live into his

11:40

old age . We were not going to be planning , you

11:42

know , retirement together . That was not happening

11:45

. And so what

11:47

is it like to live like that , Right In

11:49

your thirties , in the prime of your

11:51

life , right when you're , like , looking around

11:54

and your friends are going on adventures

11:56

and maybe buying their first home

11:58

, maybe thinking about having kids , all these things

12:00

that you think about in your thirties ? Those

12:03

were sort of all in the back burner for

12:05

us , Right . And I

12:08

think it's then that you know I spoke about

12:10

the voice that I followed

12:13

when I was younger , but without

12:15

being aware of it , Right . And I think

12:17

that the awareness around

12:20

that voice came during this

12:22

time , because it was at this

12:24

time that I really started looking

12:27

for answers Like how do I look

12:29

at this situation ? How do I get through this

12:31

? Like I know that falling apart

12:33

is an option , like absolutely , but

12:35

I don't want . I feel like there's got

12:38

to be another way . I think that's

12:40

when I really started listening to

12:42

what are the answers that are already within

12:44

me , and not to

12:46

say that anybody does it alone

12:49

. Right , you hear those . You

12:51

hear the answers and then they draw

12:54

you towards certain things , towards certain

12:56

support or the right

12:58

book or you know whatever it is

13:00

that you may need . But

13:03

you realize that you do have an inner

13:05

guidance system that will help you get through

13:07

this , and I only

13:09

wish that I knew that . You

13:11

know years before .

13:14

Really , I think anyone could listen to this and say

13:16

you know how often am I

13:19

tuning out because maybe I

13:21

am ? The inner critic is running

13:23

wild . The comparison loops

13:25

in my mind are running wild .

13:27

Yeah .

13:28

And all that is just kind of crowding or

13:30

, like you know , shutting down the frequency

13:32

for us to really be able to listen to

13:34

the whispers . Is it so loud ? Yes

13:37

, back to the space , giving

13:39

yourself space yes , what

13:41

daily routines do you put into your daily

13:43

life and practice , whether it's for yourself

13:45

or with your family ? I know you're a mother . How

13:48

do you kind of incorporate this into your life ?

13:50

So for me , I give myself space

13:52

first thing in the morning and it's

13:54

a little bit of a non-negotiable . But

13:56

at the same time , when you are a mom , you have to

13:58

be flexible , right ? So that's one of the things

14:01

that I try to help women

14:03

with is to understand that this

14:05

isn't about being perfect . It's not putting another

14:07

thing on your to-do list that like you're

14:09

gonna feel bad if you don't do it the way you said

14:12

you're gonna do it . So

14:14

in my ideal situation , I wake up

14:16

before my daughter , I do

14:18

not look at my phone , I have my coffee , I

14:20

read something inspiring , that's , you

14:22

know . It's sort of a way of like for me

14:24

Implanting

14:27

first thing in my mind

14:29

something that uplifts me , yeah

14:31

, and then I do a meditation Movement

14:35

daily , even if it's just a walk

14:37

you know I think again not over complicating

14:40

it . And

14:42

then at night what I do with

14:44

my daughter is we play a sort

14:46

of like the three best things of the day and the

14:48

one difficult thing I love that exercise , yeah

14:50

, and the one difficult and the one that's really

14:52

important part of the exercise . Yeah

14:54

, because then we like highlight all the

14:56

wonderful things , but then we get

14:59

a chance to talk through anything that did feel

15:01

difficult and it sort of allows

15:03

, like this time , to

15:06

Maybe focus on something

15:08

and how can we look at it differently or how can

15:10

we process it . So

15:12

we do that , and then I have a bit of

15:14

a journaling exercise that I do

15:17

at night as well too .

15:18

There's something that you said I think that's so profound

15:21

, it's like how do we process it ? And

15:23

so that's a really important

15:25

exercise . I don't think that's , I

15:28

don't think it's talked about enough Mm-hmm , and

15:30

I've been thinking about even this kind of topic

15:32

that you bring about in your work , which is really

15:35

the next version of you transformation

15:37

. When people are

15:40

on the cusp of that , I think they feel

15:42

it . What are the signs that people are in that

15:44

season of change in their life ?

15:47

I think it's when that whisper Becomes

15:49

louder and more nagging and

15:51

this voice is just getting so loud and

15:53

what do I do with it ? And I think that's really

15:55

a sign , and I have been there . You know

15:58

, I know what that feels like . Yes , and

16:00

it's almost like the tears are just

16:02

sort of on the surface and

16:04

you feel like anything could almost

16:06

trigger them , because you just like feel

16:09

this , almost like this bursting feeling

16:11

, you know , and I

16:13

honestly think it's the best thing ever . It's

16:15

like you coming alive , you

16:17

know .

16:18

As long as you recognize that , that's where you are

16:20

. Yes , exactly , it's so easy

16:22

to confuse that you're there

16:24

, yes , with something else . Yes

16:26

so how can people confuse the moment

16:28

, like when do they know they're actually in

16:31

the season of change ? And then what do they

16:33

tell themselves ? To kind of deny

16:35

it or kind of confuse when

16:38

they actually are .

16:39

I think the first thing that people say to diminish

16:42

it is that I'm having a midlife crisis . And

16:44

you know women in their 30s can say this to you

16:46

right here , that sort of term , so I'm

16:48

having I think I was saying it in 25 .

16:50

Yeah , yeah . So many chapters , that's right

16:52

. Quarterlife crisis I've heard that too .

16:54

And I think that , like my whole

16:56

, you know , one of the things I talk about so much is

16:58

how you position something , yes

17:01

, and how you perceive something

17:03

, and for me , we

17:06

need to strike the word crisis

17:08

and Replace it

17:10

with the word awakening , because I

17:12

think it is sort of our next level

17:14

of awakening , right , and we are waking

17:17

up to something

17:19

. This , like this , knowing this

17:21

, remembering . There's something else

17:23

happening inside of you . Yeah , exactly

17:26

, and you are waking up to that . Yeah , and so

17:28

it will lead you to

17:30

a higher place , instead of causing you

17:32

to spiral and think like what's wrong with

17:34

me ? Why can't I just be happy with what I have

17:37

, you know ? Instead , it's like no

17:39

, I'm like growing . Now this is like a growth

17:41

spurt .

17:42

For me is also been a being

17:45

okay knowing that there's really positive

17:48

things on the other side , because it can feel

17:50

like I can't see anything

17:52

. I don't know where this is going .

17:54

Yes .

17:55

Where am I supposed to be , and so , like you're , in

17:57

a bit of that nebulous

17:59

, undefined space

18:01

, but starting

18:04

to embrace that feeling because you know

18:06

that's what real transformation feels

18:08

like , versus just moving

18:10

the deck chairs around in your life .

18:12

Yes , and you know , I call that the magic

18:14

of the unknown is like this

18:17

. It's also called a liminal space

18:19

, this place where you

18:21

aren't there yet , but

18:24

you haven't quite left where you

18:26

were and you haven't quite figured out where

18:28

you're going , and you're in this sort of transitory

18:31

space . But

18:33

again , it's how we perceive it and

18:35

I think that if we can look at it as

18:37

the space where

18:39

possibilities are endless

18:41

right , and , yes

18:44

, there's fear around that but

18:46

if we can lean into but

18:48

what magic could happen here ? If

18:50

we can lean into that , then

18:53

it keeps our eyes

18:55

open for those

18:57

you know little nuggets of wisdom

18:59

, or for that person we should talk to , or for that idea that we should

19:01

do , that idea that we should pursue , or

19:03

that article we should read you know , it

19:05

just sort of leads us down this

19:08

like lovely path with like

19:12

hidden treasures and hidden

19:14

messages along the way

19:16

.

19:17

What are some critical things that people have

19:19

to do to evolve

19:21

into that next version of themselves , and

19:24

where do you take people in some of your

19:26

work with them ?

19:28

So unpacking what you really want is

19:30

sort of that first step , right ? And

19:33

so what's your first answer

19:35

that comes to your mind ? And oftentimes that

19:38

answer isn't actually what you really

19:40

really want . Oh interesting , yeah

19:42

, it's oftentimes what you think

19:44

you should want , right ? Or

19:46

it's what you think you can have . You

19:48

know , like what you think is available to you .

19:50

Value where you're value lies yes .

19:52

Whether it's money , yes , career

19:54

Exactly it's like your baseline

19:56

, what you like , and

19:58

it's rooted in your beliefs , like if it's a relationship

20:01

, it could be . I just want somebody

20:03

who has a decent job Period . That's

20:05

good enough for me . You know what I mean .

20:07

I love that , yeah so example I

20:09

don't love that outcome . I love that example because

20:11

we can all relate to that one .

20:12

That's right and so I think you

20:16

know , unpacking what you really want

20:18

is sort of that first step

20:20

, right , and that involves

20:23

taking time for yourself , reflecting

20:26

on your life , reflecting on your values

20:28

, on what's important to you

20:30

, and that again coming back to how do

20:32

I want to feel , right ? And

20:34

so , if your answer is well , in

20:36

a relationship , for example , I want

20:39

to feel inspired and I

20:41

want to feel like

20:43

I'm constantly growing with this other person

20:45

, then having a baseline

20:48

that he has , a steady job , might

20:50

not quite be serving you right , it could be the beginning .

20:52

It's not the whole thing , that's right . That's right

20:54

.

20:54

Yes , and so getting

20:57

clear on what you want is the first thing

20:59

. And then the second thing is you

21:02

know , we use that . We've talked about that

21:04

example , about somebody maybe just

21:06

not needing to leave their job , but

21:08

really just wanting to show up differently

21:10

, or wanting to show up as their authentic

21:12

self in that job . So

21:15

some of that involves confidence

21:17

, right , and I think

21:19

we have learned to feel

21:21

confident in certain areas

21:24

of our life , yeah , but I

21:26

think just having confidence in who

21:28

we are is a different thing , right

21:30

? And so the second step

21:32

that we would work on is building

21:35

up your confidence , and

21:37

to me , that is about

21:40

having trust in yourself and

21:42

believing in yourself . Those are sort

21:44

of the two , you know trust and belief

21:46

. Those are the foundational components

21:49

of confidence . It's

21:51

not about like having all the answers or

21:53

being excellent at something you

21:56

know . To me , that's not what confidence

21:58

is . Confidence is like I can trust

22:00

myself to figure this out . I can trust

22:02

that I will find the resources I need

22:04

to do this . Right and

22:07

belief . I believe in me , like

22:09

you know , with

22:11

literally no caveats . I

22:14

believe in me and I believe

22:16

that I can create this life

22:18

that I want , or I can be the person that I want

22:20

to be . I can have the relationship

22:22

that I want to have , you know

22:24

. And then the

22:26

next step is courage , because

22:29

we need to take action , and

22:32

so the next steps can sometimes come

22:34

pretty fast and furious . I call

22:36

them inspired nudges

22:38

, where you get this little nudge

22:41

and this little idea and we get them all the time and

22:43

we often just ignore them . But

22:45

what if you were to actually listen to

22:47

those as if they were instructions ? What

22:50

if you were to be like oh , I got this

22:52

little nudge to reach out to this friend or

22:55

to talk to this person ?

22:57

Even if you gave yourself two weeks on that

22:59

experiment and

23:01

if that was ?

23:02

to ?

23:02

live , I would have lived . I'm going to use two weeks

23:04

and I'm going to run that experiment . That's right

23:06

.

23:06

It's a very cool experiment to run and

23:09

it is interesting to connect the dots later

23:11

, because you can never

23:13

know where it's going to lead you . But

23:15

I think if you look back on any

23:17

sort of magical time

23:19

in your life where there were serendipities , it

23:22

could be how you met your partner , or how you found

23:24

your dream job , or whatever it is you'll

23:27

connect the dots and be like none of that was straightforward

23:29

. It was like I got this

23:31

nudge to go

23:33

into this coffee shop or whatever

23:35

it may be , but we only see

23:37

those in hindsight , so we tend to minimize

23:40

the importance of that .

23:41

I love that . So everyone listening should just run that

23:43

experiment for two weeks in their life , totally

23:45

Document it , all write it all

23:48

down and tell us comment

23:50

and tell us what happened , yes , and what

23:52

unfolded . What could people

23:54

start ? Just if there's one reflection

23:57

question they could put in their journal , what

23:59

would that reflection question be ?

24:01

My favorite , is what do I want ? What do I want

24:03

? And you know , it's like we said that

24:05

experiment of doing it for two weeks , Like

24:07

for two weeks , every single

24:10

night or every single morning , whichever one you're

24:12

more likely to do . Ask

24:14

it again what do I want ? And

24:16

the next day , what do I want ? Because I guarantee

24:19

you , it is like peeling the layers

24:21

of an onion , and what you say

24:23

on the first day and what you say on day

24:25

14 , the the

24:28

, the changes it changes and it goes deeper

24:30

.

24:30

Okay , and you get

24:32

to the tip . Is you have to write it down ? Yes , you have to write down

24:34

.

24:35

Don't ask yourself , don't just like think it in

24:37

your head . I think that's where

24:39

I've been caught up because I've been .

24:40

You know , I dream in my head .

24:41

No , no , you must , and

24:43

I ideally actually pen

24:45

to paper , not on your laptop , because there

24:48

are studies that show that writing with your hand

24:50

is , um , it creates like

24:52

a heart to mind connection

24:55

, right , and um , so

24:57

write it with a pen , okay .

24:59

So the tip is every day , morning or night

25:01

, your choice . Yeah , right , with the pen

25:04

. Yes , it will evolve . You'll

25:06

see everything change through the 14 day

25:09

experiment . Yes , and then the second tip

25:11

is going to be follow the nudge

25:13

yes .

25:14

Right , absolutely .

25:16

Like , even it's like . Oh , I feel like going I the Saturday

25:19

morning . For some reason . I feel like ordering a

25:21

different coffee today .

25:22

Yes , whatever the nudge is , do it Also

25:24

. It's so much fun . It's

25:26

so much fun to live life from that like place

25:29

of just following your whims . You know we

25:33

need more fun . I love it .

25:35

We have covered a lot of grounds from

25:37

the backdrop of people's lives

25:40

, how they make big change in their lives

25:42

, where we get caught , the

25:44

adversity along the way , the

25:46

recognition of being in the space

25:48

of change and transformation . But I feel like

25:50

this last piece of just really

25:52

having the blueprint of those three things

25:54

that you talked about and those two

25:57

week takeaways , this is

25:59

I'm so excited for people to have this experience

26:02

. I'm so glad that I

26:04

was introduced to you . Thank you

26:06

for coming , thank you for being with us

26:08

. We're

26:11

going to put this out and

26:13

we're going to have everyone comment and

26:15

like and share and

26:18

I just I'm imagining

26:20

. so here's my vision of what I think

26:22

might happen is just this just becomes

26:24

a collection of people

26:27

being able to listen to something but make

26:29

meaningful change , like after

26:31

this podcast , and

26:34

even if it's just a talk . You

26:36

know , I find myself sometimes listening

26:39

to things or reading books , but I don't integrate

26:41

anything , and I really want people to kind

26:43

of integrate the wisdom that you're bringing forward

26:45

and through this discussion and

26:47

, more importantly , once they do , hearing all

26:49

about it and hearing about the fantastic

26:52

things that unfold for people in their

26:54

lives . So thank you for being here and sharing all

26:56

this with us .

26:57

Thank you , jen , it was so much fun . Thank

27:00

you , Thank

27:02

you .