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rules and restrictions they

2:36

apply. I'm

2:47

and thirty. Welcome to with.

2:51

This is gonna be really. Horrible. Let's.

2:53

Just. So horrible that

2:55

we recently guessed it on help assess my

2:58

boss and the Us. And

3:03

we said no, you don't And then they said

3:05

no, we do And then I told them. and

3:08

then of on with like the and then it'd make the

3:10

at at the snow. Do

3:13

you remember and this is the a way

3:15

way way way way way way back for

3:18

about Do you remember that? Mix them with.

3:20

Look. Sketch. About the

3:22

woman to like is an estate agent is showing

3:24

this couple runs like us. what you do for

3:26

nothing is like. Oh lima, a

3:28

therapist, the taught survivors and he's

3:30

like. Was the worst thing

3:33

you've ever heard. And she's like, i

3:35

really, I really don't think it's it's appropriate I

3:37

a you don't you don't one and I. I.

3:39

Seen some really been the thing mean I know,

3:41

tell me, tell me what's the. Worst thing, and

3:43

then it's like cuts to them going. Into Roman just

3:46

walking out and he says that. This.

3:49

is got from the other. Ssssss

3:51

under. I feel like.

3:54

That. Is what happens. When

3:56

we talk to people about Children of God.

3:59

So I was. We. That me on the job.

4:01

With some weird like going out

4:03

for drinks and we've been Piccadilly

4:06

put an ad somewhere. And

4:08

there was a person playing guitar. And

4:11

turned around primary Christian harsher on. That

4:13

out oh my god where a yeah I

4:15

was enchanted on the other day suck in

4:17

our question as up to my eyeballs handing

4:19

out leaflets didn't give me one nine to

4:21

take our because you to brown they will

4:24

I not not you not year and but

4:26

yes this woman toronto's ring a denim jacket

4:28

and he said Children of God emblazoned on

4:30

the. And asked. And.

4:33

He with that. Do

4:36

not wanna know and that your I got. Out

4:39

of I know let me tell you as a we

4:41

with that are a pact to but while I did.

4:44

Think I whispered. To him,

4:46

all of these horrible things were about

4:48

to scream at you lovely people for

4:50

two. Weeks that I have to to barter.

4:53

This is actually quite difficult story to tell because

4:55

for the first time on red handed there are

4:57

tens. Of thousands of victim said

4:59

others, one man. And

5:02

we can't tell all of their stories as much as we

5:04

might want. To has been I went like this has

5:06

been one of the hottest. Scripts I've ever

5:08

done because. I made the mistake.

5:11

Of reading about seven books from

5:13

Survivors. And what

5:16

we usually do when we do like

5:18

a and nebulous topic like a residential

5:20

schools for am says nation's children or.

5:23

Something. Like that. We have won

5:25

three line story that we follow in those of

5:27

handle the hooks on. Is.

5:30

Impossible to do that with them. So.

5:32

I've done my best Susan

5:34

and this is part one.

5:36

You could spend years, decades

5:38

even learning all there is

5:40

no about this stomach churning.

5:43

And. If he's a deal as net know anything about

5:45

the children. Of God you probably know that

5:48

Rose Mcgowan. River Phoenix and Joaquin

5:50

Phoenix were all born into. It I

5:52

really recommend going to see don't see going to

5:54

listen to Rose Mcgowan on Luther is Locked havoc

5:56

on. Because she I

5:58

mean Britain. Britain. When. I

6:01

admire her so much, but she's not okay. Know

6:03

I was gonna say Rose Mcgowan,

6:05

River, Mckim, Phoenix all famously fine.

6:08

My. Or.

6:12

If you, I'm not mental of the speech

6:14

that Joaquin Phoenix gave about cows. I

6:19

don't watch the Oscars know, nor do I.

6:22

Know my I. I just couldn't give a fuck

6:24

but this was. Insane that

6:26

p the victim in this go but he

6:28

alleges not to the so maybe I can

6:30

take that as other off the speech or

6:33

nice political. He wishes I stopped drinking milk your

6:35

mattering house. And. While.

6:39

I don't know the Children of God stance on cars and

6:41

for it. I

6:44

do know that it's an organization famous a Free Love.

6:46

Cookies for Christ's I'm putting garlic cloves up.

6:48

Bomb hauls. Or you'll find

6:51

out. I mean if they put

6:53

up the other parts of the lady

6:55

apparently can cure pv. If.

6:59

You're fresh out of boric. Acid

7:01

Depository. Apparently a clove of

7:03

garlic or playwright right up. Your

7:06

nose working aside years and years ago as a

7:08

guy he really nice guy com member's name I

7:10

got a war on Hytner. Am.

7:13

Fortunate. Oh yeah, and we're all just

7:15

like paint Face green colada. Say

7:17

he read this put gotta be set aside garlic

7:19

for at night it makes it better. And

7:22

he's acting on that. Then he came

7:24

back in. Like. A few days later,

7:27

And. It was still there but that was

7:29

like a cavern around and we will have you don't

7:31

use that. Turned out. Different. See

7:33

my little Garlic and my mom's

7:35

Waitrose garlic is a quite significant

7:38

on my goodness. Chemically burned his

7:40

fifties where you can exist. Oh

7:43

my club? I know, I know. I'm

7:46

upset I forgot about that who

7:48

just now? Anyway, the children go

7:50

to are still technically. Going.

7:53

To this day, the other woman was playing

7:55

a guitar loud and proud. And

7:57

it still going because unlike Jonestown,

8:00

Can we hear on the Branch Davidians? There was

8:02

no great end to the Children of God story.

8:04

That. Was no raid, no terrorist plot. Know.

8:07

Koolaid. I put that in because

8:09

it rhymes. I know it was flavor eight before you

8:11

will come into a at me. After

8:14

dodging multiple tool to be seats. As.

8:17

The I investigations and press pressure.

8:19

The. Children of God. Just. Downsized and

8:21

change their name. And.

8:24

That's why I'm surprised that that when eight he

8:26

was wearing jackets of the Children in Cook said

8:28

the Family International Now maybe like a vintage leave

8:30

speaker phone is it should they should number is.

8:35

Maybe. She twisted it and she did

8:37

them away. the cold contacts Children of

8:39

God just sounds like quite the on

8:41

little hippie because the at that kind

8:43

of what. They start out with a.

8:46

Meta. Topic: a bit of a fun hippie

8:48

thing or maybe shifts you know. Picked

8:50

up her Yale then to do that

8:52

sir and picked up a Georgian of

8:55

go Out flower Child as a O

8:57

a child of god. I love air.

8:59

I will wear it when I bosque

9:01

a big. The circus had one true

9:03

crime Pa Costs there will be horrified.

9:06

At ruin her boyfriends night. I

9:10

feel that make up for it. May.

9:12

Be. Because. We will never

9:14

ever catch them all. Or

9:16

even a few of them. Honestly, Officially

9:19

speaking, the Children of God was not found

9:21

it until Nineteen Sixty Eight. And. It

9:23

ran for over four decades. In

9:25

it's original form. It. Reach

9:28

millions of people and converted

9:30

hundreds or thousands. Looking.

9:32

For purpose. It. Just makes.

9:35

The. Founder of the Children of Boat. With.

9:37

David Bryant Park. And

9:40

it really get. Going cult life until he

9:42

was in his late forty two babies. Never too

9:44

late start again said eyesight One other things yeah

9:46

to the less. like how. Vera. Wang

9:49

didn't become a dress design or until she

9:51

would like safety or some shit and Oprah

9:53

Winfrey got sacked from her first journalism job.

9:55

David Bad didn't even become a cult leader

9:57

in touch with forty. Forty Nine. I

10:03

want he started the cook David wouldn't keep

10:05

his name for know. Because. It wasn't

10:07

sparkly enough. Oh Bernie. pushy

10:09

enough. Lots of name changes happen.

10:12

So. It makes it quite difficult follow. So.

10:14

If you know the story particularly well and you're

10:16

like you've left. Out the name of this person is

10:18

hop us got it? Got it? David

10:21

bad did not just dropped from the sky or

10:23

float up the Nile. He. Was the

10:26

end of a long line. Of

10:28

Evangelists because nothing bad ever happens.

10:31

In. The beginning there with the bags

10:33

and youngest A that was born in

10:35

Oakland, California. On. The Eighteen. December

10:37

Nineteen Nineteen. And. He spent most

10:40

of his life on the road. Because. All

10:42

of his family wouldn't shut the hell up

10:44

about Jesus. And they just

10:46

have to tell absolutely every about it. And

10:49

every one. Meant. Everyone.

10:52

Up and down at the country. Constantly.

10:56

Exhaust. And. Also bags

10:58

dad who's name is how much.

11:01

Or. How which if I said that

11:03

wrong? I don't guess the

11:05

bit. Scam. The I saw

11:08

I had any. yeah, I think it's

11:10

in that general in the early afternoon. So

11:12

how much. Did Minstrel shows

11:14

alongside his his mom's

11:16

evangelical Christians to have

11:18

masses what are have

11:20

services in and also

11:22

interesting? Hao. My parents use

11:25

a bit of a party guy when he

11:27

first met the denounce to the basement. And

11:30

virgin establish are rich. So Hama was like

11:32

all. Combat not clean up my acts like a

11:34

mario daughter social and then they did. He was

11:36

like fuck are you are married is boring ass

11:38

bitch like it's it's house and bag like point

11:40

through it like throughout his adult was like wow

11:42

you know it's just not what my mother wanted.

11:44

She didn't want this. Guy: Straight laced,

11:46

churchgoing. Sober guy, but that's

11:48

what she got. Interesting. All

11:51

of us travelling meant the David Back spent most

11:53

of his childhood intense and in caravans. Up

11:56

and down the country the Merry Band of

11:58

Birch did go and true revivalist style. Berg's

12:00

mum, Virginia, as I said, was a

12:03

particularly special one of God's children. She

12:05

claimed to have been healed by God as a

12:08

young woman after she was paralysed from being thrown

12:10

from a horse-drawn carriage. And

12:12

Virginia was so good at telling this story

12:15

that she landed a full-time preaching gig in

12:17

Miami, and also a radio show,

12:19

I believe, so the Bergs

12:21

could hang up their travelling boots for a little while. And

12:24

in Miami, David worked as his mum's assistant, never

12:26

stepping into the limelight himself, at

12:28

least not for now. He just drove

12:31

his mum around doing whatever she said. In

12:34

1941, Berg claimed he was conscripted into the

12:36

army at 22 years old. And

12:39

whether he actually served or not, though, is a

12:41

bit of a mystery. He

12:44

was struck down with double pneumonia.

12:46

I don't know what double pneumonia is.

12:48

No, not why. Both lungs? I

12:50

don't know. Both lungs? Oh, look it

12:53

up. Double pannew. It's hard. It

12:56

is hard. You are correct, both lungs. Oh, there you

12:58

go. Oh, my

13:00

little joke turned out to be a horrible fact. So

13:04

yeah, he was struck down with double pneumonia

13:06

before he could actually even be deployed anywhere

13:09

and was told by doctors that it was all

13:11

over. Be

13:14

healthy, be healthy, be healthy. How though?

13:17

What does that even mean? Why won't everyone stop

13:19

saying it? Ironically, I have almost lost my mind

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15:05

Berg pledged to the almighty father that

15:07

if he pulled through, he

15:09

would dedicate his life to holy servitude.

15:11

It's not like he wasn't doing that already, by the

15:14

way. Very easy to say. Oh, if

15:16

I don't die of double

15:18

lung pneumonia, then I will

15:21

start drinking coffee every single morning.

15:23

God. Now,

15:25

other people who are not Berg say

15:27

that he never went into basic training.

15:30

And I actually signed up for Divinity School

15:32

after he was drafted in order to get

15:35

out of going to war. Yeah. And

15:37

I think we know which one we believe. Yeah.

15:40

Draft dodging is a

15:43

favorite of the American president, one

15:45

might add. Yeah, I don't believe

15:47

for a second that he actually signed up. Like,

15:50

but they say this is the tricky thing is that like

15:52

some of the books that are

15:54

listed in the show notes, some of the books that

15:56

are written by survivors, some

15:59

of it they still So like one of

16:01

the, I think it's, there's one called Sex Cult None. And

16:04

in Sex Cult None, I think that

16:07

I read that, you know, he was so desperate,

16:09

he was such a patriot that even though he could have

16:11

got out of it, he signed up. But then you read something that's

16:13

not by a survivor and they're like, no, he fucking didn't. Yeah.

16:17

Interesting. Well, the one thing we know about David

16:19

Berg and all cult leaders is they're

16:21

very good storytellers and very good spin

16:24

artists. So who the fuck knows what

16:26

is true and what isn't? But

16:29

perhaps this kind of lying ran in

16:31

the Berg family. If you

16:33

believe Berg's children, Virginia's horse and

16:35

cart accident never actually even

16:37

happened. Actually, in

16:39

the five years that Virginia claimed to have been

16:42

bed bound, she was actually attending Christian

16:44

University to cover up the birth of a child that

16:46

she shouldn't have been having at all because she

16:48

wasn't married. Oh, no, she was married

16:51

if she wasn't homeless. Oh,

16:53

I see. So

16:56

Virginia's story of miraculous, godly

16:58

recovery was probably a total

17:00

pile of shit. But

17:02

the key point to notice here before we

17:04

move on is that even in this early

17:07

stage of Berg's life, lying

17:09

when connected to ministry for Christ

17:11

was totally fine. Fraudulent

17:14

stories about a horse accident or double pneumonia

17:16

are completely and utterly fine to

17:19

spin, as long as they end

17:21

up bringing people to Jesus. The

17:23

means to an end theme is going to come up a lot

17:26

over the next couple of weeks, so I hope you are ready.

17:29

But whether Berg actually joined up

17:31

or not is pretty irrelevant because in no

17:33

time at all he was

17:35

back being his roving Reverend's mum's little bitch boy.

17:38

He wanted to preach, but he also

17:40

knew, he wrote later in life, that Virginia needed

17:42

a few more years in God's holy light. In

17:46

1944, Berg met and married his wife Jane

17:48

Miller and managed to wiggle away from his

17:50

mum a little bit. He

17:52

and his wife Jane managed to push out a couple of

17:54

kids. The girl, Deborah, would go on to write an expose

17:57

on the children of God and what her father

17:59

David Berg would do. They want to come. I'm

18:01

afraid it's not very get. The. Book. It's

18:04

kind of the worst one

18:06

for unsubstantiated stories that cost

18:08

bug in A very positive.

18:11

And then very negative light at the same time

18:13

the I actually think the most like. The

18:15

article I read that most the I trust the most the

18:17

I think is. The most. I'm. The

18:20

most neutral because it's an academic paper.

18:22

It's lustful Profit: a psycho sexual. History The

18:24

study the children completed ever. Bucks that is

18:26

like, well Deborah says this, I can't

18:28

find any are. Also. I don't know. Yet

18:31

not dish on Deborah. She wants her along. At

18:33

its. It's. Not the best

18:35

of the books show the best of the books

18:37

is Jesus Freaks. And yes, I've heard of Jesus

18:40

Freaks cook. So

18:42

living is new married life. Berg.

18:44

Finally got round to actually been

18:46

ordained. And he was sent off

18:48

to spread the word in Arizona. Displacement

18:50

did not a particularly well, however.

18:53

The. In the solar was claimed that he

18:55

was will it take it away from mysteries.

18:58

Because. He asked the white people

19:00

to share their wealth with the Native Americans.

19:02

And. The Mexicans. And. Apparently the

19:05

West didn't like that. Now we don't like that. Said,

19:07

he ran a mouth. Know.

19:09

Sherry. Which. Again is

19:11

not quite true. The.

19:13

Details or I see a bit unclear but

19:16

it seems as if the real reason that

19:18

bar got run out of Arizona. Was

19:20

a lot more to do with some kind of

19:22

sexual scandal and it wants to do with. Literally.

19:25

Anything. Deborah.

19:27

Bird claims that this scandal was actually

19:29

an affair. Including foods.

19:32

Me: yeah, one other thing. she writes.

19:34

In her book is that her father

19:36

told her. That. He wanted to say

19:38

married to Jane. But. He also wanted

19:40

to have his niece has like a conspiring. So.

19:45

Yeah raise eyebrows Raised eyebrows. Referee on mine

19:47

are have disappeared. But. For

19:49

now, let's focus on the sharing aspect of

19:51

this for a second. He's asking white people

19:53

to share with the Native Americans. And.

19:55

the mexicans because david bag searched he

19:58

bought his favorite list of so It's

20:00

a big fact for me. It's

20:03

very Jones Tony. At least

20:05

the way Jim Jones presented himself, David Berg kind

20:07

of presents himself in a similar way. Would you

20:09

say at the start? Yes. I

20:11

think that the children of God is what

20:13

happens when Jim Jones and Joseph Smith have

20:16

a baby. Okay, got it. Got

20:18

it. Because, yeah, Jim Jones very much was like, oh, this

20:20

is going to be a communist utopia. Yeah,

20:22

look at my rainbow family. We're all

20:24

going to share everything. It's about racial

20:27

equality. It's like, yeah,

20:29

okay. So tell me how this didn't

20:31

work. Hello. Because

20:35

actually being communist is quite a Christian thing to

20:37

be, no matter what American politicians

20:39

want you to think. And

20:42

we've spoken about tithing before in our Mormonism episodes. Lots

20:45

of not cults, lots of, quote unquote, legitimate

20:47

religions, expect tithes from their parishioners, usually

20:49

around the 20% mark, as in 20% of household income goes to your

20:51

church. And

20:54

most Catholics' first major sin is stealing from the

20:56

collection plates. Everyone's done it. Adl

20:59

and Sayed has ever admitted to. Definitely

21:02

not the only one who committed that. So

21:05

whether we like it or not, money and religion

21:08

are intertwined because you need money to live and

21:10

a lot of people need religion to live as

21:12

well. They always have been almost

21:15

one in the same. And

21:17

one thing Berg was really good at was finding passages

21:19

in the Bible to justify anything and everything, he

21:22

decided to say. Having said that, he is far from

21:24

the only person to claim that Jesus was a communist. But

21:27

here is the bit from the Bible that

21:29

Berg used to justify the idea that everyone

21:31

should share stuff with everyone else. It's Acts

21:33

2.44 and it is all the believers were

21:35

together and had everything in common. You can't

21:38

argue with it, it does that. Hmm. That's what it says.

21:41

And unlike us uptight Brits, Berg came

21:43

from a tradition of Christianity that was not afraid

21:45

to rock the boat. We're far too

21:48

scared after the whole Anne Boleyn debacle. We

21:50

will do whatever we're told now. I'm

21:52

actually rewatching the Tudors. Do you know

21:54

what's happened to me? It's

21:56

after we did... I

21:58

think after I did the Lady... Jane Grey episode

22:01

for shorthand. Somehow I've

22:03

got onto the side of TikTok where

22:06

they only talk about Tudors. Interesting. Yeah,

22:08

and so I know, did you know

22:10

that Katherine Howard was only 19 when

22:13

they killed her? And there's this really tragic bit where she's

22:15

like locked up in the plastic, she runs down the

22:17

corridor to try and get her rid of her and

22:19

then she gets trapped. Yeah, and how she

22:22

asked them the night before she was, I know

22:24

her head chopped off for the executioner's block so

22:26

she could practice putting her head on it again

22:28

and again and again. And also

22:30

all the horrible stuff that happened to

22:33

Katherine Howard when she was like a teenager and

22:35

definitely like all sorts of sexual abuse

22:37

by her piano teacher. Yeah, so no,

22:40

I'm very familiar with the Tudors because I've spent

22:42

far too long watching so many videos about them.

22:44

Why am I doing that? I don't know. But

22:47

it did like ping in my brain even when you were

22:49

like, he just looked in the Bible

22:51

to find a verse that fitted what he wanted, which is

22:53

exactly what Henry does in order to be like, I

22:56

need to get a divorce. Yep, let's dissolute the

22:58

monasteries. Dissolve

23:00

the monasteries. Dissolve the monasteries. The

23:02

dissolution of the monasteries. Dissolve the monasteries. I'm having a

23:04

stroke, please go on. But

23:07

anyway, this episode is not about Tudors. We

23:09

are staying in America because

23:11

there in particular, the attitude

23:14

of the pilgrims fleeing Britain

23:16

to be more hard-line was alive

23:19

and well in David Berg's heart. There

23:22

was a significant air of not wanting to

23:24

be ruled by the church, but

23:26

to actually take the Bible

23:28

word for word and not

23:30

all the made up Catholic stuff, like indulgences,

23:32

et cetera. Which is all made up by the church,

23:34

it's not in the book. And

23:36

that is the tradition that Berg was born into, the

23:39

Pentecostal model, the Bible is

23:41

it. All additional

23:44

religious rules instilled by men

23:46

in dresses are not part

23:48

of the vision. Which Americans are just a

23:50

lot more game for. Which

23:53

may sound noble, especially if you love

23:55

Jesus or whatever. But it also

23:57

lays the foundation. Because

24:00

the Bible is so long and so old

24:03

that you can make it say whatever you

24:05

want. And that

24:07

is exactly what David Berg did. He

24:09

just mixed it up with the naivety of

24:12

the hippie movement. Unfortunately, to

24:14

great success. Did you know that Christianity was

24:17

in Africa before it was in Europe? No.

24:19

The Ethiopian Bible is much, much older than any

24:21

Bible that we have. Wow. So

24:23

like the type of Christianity in Ethiopia is very unique. No?

24:26

It's interesting, isn't it? It's true. You

24:29

may have already picked up on the fact that

24:31

David Berg's relationship with his mum Virginia was not

24:33

totally okay. And obviously sex is a

24:35

big part of the Children of God story. And

24:38

surprise, surprise, those two things are connected.

24:42

Nobody who ends up like David Berg has a

24:44

normal relationship with their mum. But

24:46

this one is really something. David

24:48

Berg, like more children than you would think,

24:50

was a compulsive masturbator as a child. It's

24:53

actually the only thing he claims to remember from his childhood.

24:55

Oh my God. He like writes it

24:57

later and he's like, I liked it then, I like it

24:59

now. When

25:02

his mum caught him playing the devil's trombone,

25:04

she brought the whole family in and told

25:06

her four year old son that if he

25:09

didn't stop, she would cut off his penis in

25:11

front of all of them. Oh, don't

25:13

do that. Don't do

25:15

that. Maybe we can

25:17

write actually a parenting

25:19

book. Not don't.

25:21

Just don't do that. Don't

25:24

do that. And it can just be all

25:26

of the fucking horrible things that people

25:29

did to turn their kids into little fucking

25:31

serial killers or cult leaders or horrible shit.

25:34

Don't do that. Do not tell your four year old

25:36

son you're going to cut his penis off in front

25:38

of your entire family. Don't do that. No, she even brought

25:40

a little bowl in with her and she's like, it's going

25:42

to go in here. But

25:46

it didn't stop him. He also tells a

25:48

story about a lady who he only calls the Mexican

25:50

babysitter. I don't know what her name was. Apparently

25:53

she used to suck him off to sleep when he

25:55

was a child. Oh my God. Yeah, rough. And

25:58

if he and I love that Hannah is just like. Little

26:00

breadcrumb in you now to ease

26:02

in all of the truly, truly horrible

26:04

shit that is coming up over the next two weeks.

26:06

You ain't seen nothing yet. You're just like, oh

26:08

yeah, just, she's a sucker motherfucker.

26:11

Let's move on. You all prepped.

26:14

I'm tenderizing them like a big fat slab

26:16

of meat. I've been living in this for

26:18

weeks. Let's get it out of your head. Let's

26:20

get on with it. And I'm afraid it

26:22

immediately gets worse. There is more, I'm

26:24

afraid, to this particular part in David Berg's life.

26:27

And we're telling you because it's important. Virginia

26:29

Caughtberg wanking as a teenager, and instead of

26:31

threatening him with GPH, instead she brought his

26:33

dad into the room and made her son

26:35

finish in front of him. Ah,

26:38

porn star material though. If you can finish wanking

26:40

off in front of your dad. Jesus

26:42

Christ. I actually, I forgot to put

26:44

this in the notes, but this is another story that happened to him. He

26:47

claims that he had penetrative sex

26:49

with his cousin when they were both seven because

26:52

she had seen her parents doing it. And

26:54

then he realized that I

26:57

think three of the house staff and his uncle

26:59

were watching. Ah, fucking

27:01

hell. And look,

27:03

David Berg goes on to

27:05

be a horrible, horrible, horrible,

27:07

horrible, gross, disgusting

27:10

person who damages a

27:12

lot of people, as we said at the very start. But

27:15

his teenage, his childhood and his teenage years,

27:17

they really did a number on him. So

27:21

I think we can all agree that the Western Mark Effect does not live

27:23

in the Berg House. And that is a

27:25

very clear foundation of what was to come. After

27:28

the Arizona disaster when he was run out of town,

27:30

Berg moved on to work for a faith healer called

27:32

Orville Jagger's. And I only put that in because it's

27:34

such a ridiculous name. Oh

27:36

my God. One day I would like to

27:38

own a pig, and I will

27:41

call him Orville Jagger's. Not Sarante. Not.

27:44

They'll double two. You don't want him to get lonely.

27:46

They'll need a friend. Orville

27:48

Jagger's. I don't know. When I hear

27:50

that name, I just think of a little pig. But

27:54

we don't really know what happened with Orville the

27:56

pig Jagger's, but Berg didn't last long with him. somewhere

28:00

else, chillingly called the American Soul Clinic in

28:02

1954. And the American

28:05

Soul Clinic happened to be owned by

28:07

a bloke called Fred Jordan. And

28:09

Berg and Fred must have got on pretty well

28:12

at least in the beginning because Berg worked for

28:14

Fred at the American Soul Clinic, training missionaries. For

28:17

13 years. Which, bear

28:19

in mind, he was born in 1919, he's already old

28:22

as shit. Fred Jordan was

28:24

one of the first-ever televangelists

28:27

and Berg trained under him, sending missionaries

28:29

all over the world. This

28:32

is where he learned that there are plenty

28:34

of people willing to leave it all behind

28:37

and go to developing countries exclusively

28:39

to talk about Jesus. He

28:42

also learned aggressive sales tactics. Is

28:44

that all it is? Is

28:47

that angels on your body? Is that

28:49

a televangelist thing? Yes.

28:52

I thought it's from a Louis Theroux.

28:54

It's a weird weekend. A weird weekend,

28:56

that woman. I think whenever she picks

28:59

up the phone, when she puts the

29:01

phone... Angels on your body! Give

29:04

me your money. It was her

29:06

children's gold jacket. Full

29:09

circle. So in

29:11

1967, for reasons we can't quite put

29:13

on finger on, Fred

29:15

Jordan fired Berg. So

29:17

David Berg, with four children, a disgruntled

29:19

wife and almost broke at the age

29:22

of 49, hit the road once more.

29:24

This time in a 28-foot motorhome that

29:27

Berg called the Ark.

29:31

Isn't that... What?

29:34

Oh, we talk about all the time. Killed

29:37

her babies. Andrea Yates. Didn't Andrea Yates's husband

29:39

call their motorhome the Ark? I don't know

29:41

if he called it the Ark, but they

29:43

definitely lived on a greyhound. I'm currently proofing

29:45

the book for an upcoming paper

29:47

back for us. Stay tuned. It'll make a

29:50

great Christmas present. If he did, we didn't

29:52

put it in the book. I

29:54

feel like we would have put it in. It was true. But

29:57

he definitely made her live on a greyhound

29:59

bike. That definitely did not

30:01

help her psychosis. One tiny

30:03

little bit. And yeah, Burgfoss

30:06

is a Thai family to also live on this

30:08

bus while he drove around and he also made

30:10

them sing for their supper. Now

30:12

I don't know when as a society we

30:14

lost our appetite for travelling theatre troops of

30:17

children, but I for

30:19

one am glad that it happened. Yeah, so let's

30:21

just stop doing that. Let the children go

30:23

to school, is what I say. I

30:25

would agree. See

30:28

this is why we all got over it as

30:30

a society. The Burg family singers, as they

30:32

called themselves ingeniously, was a complete and utter

30:34

flop. And that meant that David Burg,

30:36

now in his fifties with the loads

30:38

of kids and no money, had

30:41

to come up with another plan. And

30:43

being a creature of habit, that plan involved

30:46

his mum, Virginia. Virginia was

30:48

in her twilight years living in Huntington Beach,

30:50

California, home to the National Surfing Museum. And

30:54

perhaps in an effort to impress his

30:56

mum, Burg changed the name of his

30:58

Von Trapp extravaganza to Teens for Christ.

31:00

Oh I remember that. And

31:02

joined Virginia on the beach. That

31:04

is another classic vintage tea, if

31:06

I ever saw one. The

31:09

Teens for Christ in the Fijabi font. And

31:13

there in Huntington Beach, Burg started forcing his

31:16

spawn to sing in somewhere

31:18

called the Light Cafe, to

31:20

the hippies, who probably hadn't had a glass

31:22

of water for a week. There were also

31:24

free peanut butter sandwiches involved. That's how they lured them

31:26

in. From

31:29

there. By 1968, the hippie movement had died a

31:31

bit of a death, and there were

31:33

a lot of lost souls kicking around Huntington Beach.

31:36

Which of course made it the perfect hunting

31:38

ground for David Burg and his band of

31:40

merry children to tell washed up hippies and

31:43

freaks that they could get off the

31:45

drugs and get high on Jesus instead. This

31:48

podcast made this point, that I think if they have a series on

31:50

this it's like four or five parts long it's really good going this

31:52

way. They made the point that this

31:54

is right at the end of the hippie movement, and

31:57

it's like... show

32:00

where Jez is like turns

32:02

out watching someone you love having sex with someone

32:04

else is really, really horrible. Yes, yes, yes. So

32:07

they talk about this particular moment

32:09

in time of like it's all over.

32:13

Like, yeah. And it wasn't

32:15

fun. Last Days of Saigon. Yes,

32:17

exactly. No, it's true. I

32:20

think a lot of the times you

32:22

see this sort of confirmation happen in

32:24

times where a particular society is going

32:26

through some sort of flux. Like

32:29

if you look at, for example, Omshin

32:31

Rikiou, the religion pre Omshin Rikiou in

32:33

Japan had been very much Shintoism, like

32:36

state Shintoism. And the emperor was this

32:38

divine being, like a literal God on

32:40

earth. Then the bombs

32:42

fell on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. And it was a

32:44

bit harder to be like, I'm

32:47

a God when that's happened to your country. So

32:49

then obviously when religion fell out of favor, people in

32:52

Japan were like, Oh my God, what do I do

32:54

now? Boom. Blind Jogerman.

32:58

It's kind of obviously

33:00

I'm not saying that he was a good person,

33:02

but it is kind of genius. Like

33:05

most like, quote unquote, successful cults.

33:08

They just happen at exactly the right

33:10

moment in time. Absolutely. You

33:13

know, one of the things that we talked about

33:15

at Northium on Sinister Society is our short lived

33:18

series that we did a while back, which actually was

33:20

really good. We just like couldn't keep doing it

33:22

because of other things. But yeah,

33:24

like one of the things that I felt

33:26

really became a running theme during that show

33:28

was the idea that cult leaders are

33:31

entrepreneurs and the ones that are successful are

33:33

just the good entrepreneurs. They identify a

33:35

niche in the market and then they fucking

33:37

go for it with everything. And

33:39

then they get greedy and they fuck themselves over, which

33:42

is why I do think it's interesting that the

33:44

children of God's family international has managed to survive.

33:47

And it's exactly because of

33:49

peace circumvent that issue. Yep.

33:52

Evolve or die. So

33:54

getting back to Berg, by this point, he

33:56

was 50 years old and had 15 years of mis-

34:00

Then, at last, Virginia died, and

34:02

Berg took things up a notch. The

34:09

Light Cafe was started by Pentecostals, but

34:12

soon became the temple of the rage against

34:14

what Berg called the system. The

34:18

night he gave this speech against the

34:20

system was actually the first time he

34:22

had spoken publicly. With

34:24

Virginia his mum dead, he was

34:26

free to declare war on the religious system and

34:28

also on the way that he had been

34:31

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35:45

David Berg, fear and condemnation died

35:47

that day in 1968 as he railed against the church,

35:51

the war in Vietnam, politicians and

35:53

parents who had all made us miserable. he

36:00

was attempting to be a

36:02

minister himself but she was still alive. She was like, you're just a

36:05

knock off Fred Jordan, who do you think you are? And

36:07

his wife wasn't particularly happy about it as well and

36:10

so he had all of this judgment and shame and then all of

36:12

the sex stuff that happened when he was a kid. But

36:15

then Virginia died and then it's like, oh,

36:17

she was so horrible to me that everything

36:19

she said, everything she made me feel, I

36:21

should be feeling the opposite. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:24

Again, very well timed. This was a

36:26

genius move from him. He included things

36:29

in this speech that hippies liked, like

36:31

protests and sit-ins. And I'm

36:33

not crazy. It's like when Lisa's like, the whole

36:35

damn system is wrong. It's like that. It's

36:38

not my fault that things haven't worked out because of

36:40

the system. And eventually

36:43

Berg would blend his own

36:45

sexual perversions with fundamentalist Christian

36:47

doctrines, godly missions and

36:49

the counterculture movement. So

36:52

far, none of the sex stuff has happened so this

36:54

isn't particularly bad. If people want to live off the

36:56

land and off the grid, then fine. Not everybody is

36:58

built for the rat race and we're told all the

37:00

time that hardship is just the way it is. And

37:03

when someone tells you that it doesn't have to be

37:05

this way, that existence doesn't have to be rigid

37:07

and painful and full of rules, I

37:09

do think there is an innate human response to believe them

37:12

because we want it to be true. We all

37:14

want to be happy and not many of us are.

37:19

This wouldn't be an episode of Red Handed if it had a happy ending.

37:21

The people that Berg was recruiting from the Light

37:24

Cafe had already turned their back on the system

37:26

and Berg just took advantage of it. They

37:28

needed to fill that hole. They needed a

37:30

mission. And after closely

37:32

observing what the Great Unwashed responded to the

37:35

most positively, David Berg

37:37

grew a big long beard, bought

37:40

a beret and asked everyone

37:42

to start calling him Dad. Market

37:44

research. He also

37:46

took advantage of the anti-Vietnam War

37:48

sentiment by preaching not only

37:51

that the system was bad, but that

37:53

America was particularly bad and

37:55

a great punishment was coming. And then he says to them,

37:57

and you have to tell everyone. now,

38:00

the drugs are gone, the free love is gone,

38:02

you don't worry about your material possessions because I'll

38:04

take them off your hands. Yes, give them to me. I'll

38:06

hold on to them. Go forth and spread the

38:08

word of Jesus. And

38:11

why did it work? As soon

38:13

as David Berg upgraded Teens for Christ to

38:15

the Children of God, David

38:18

Berg's followers were in the hundreds,

38:20

almost overnight. They'd go to like university campuses

38:22

and stuff from car parks and like flyer

38:25

people. And it was

38:27

actually a journalist that called them the Children of God first and he read

38:29

it and he was like, I like that. And

38:31

they would get like moved on from all of these

38:33

places and that obviously he just uses like what they're

38:35

persecuting us because we're right. One

38:39

particular recruit in the hundreds

38:41

was young, virginal Catherine Zerbe

38:44

and she caught David Berg's eye in 1969. She

38:47

quickly became a secretary and her virginity

38:49

didn't last very long. If

38:52

you even tangentially know this case,

38:55

the name Taran Zerbe is

38:57

going to send like it just did for me, a little

39:00

chill up and down your spine. Blusting

39:04

after Catherine Zerbe presented a bit of a problem

39:06

for David Berg because he absolutely wanted to bang

39:08

Karen Zerbe but he didn't want to stop banging

39:10

his wife Jane. Up

39:12

until this point Berg had been

39:14

taking the traditional Christian route that sex is

39:16

only allowed inside a marriage. This

39:19

is feeling again very Henry the A. In

39:22

these very early days Berg even insisted that

39:25

the leaders of his pamphlet teams, his

39:27

witnessing teams, could only be

39:29

married couples. So Berg being

39:32

Henry the A, came up with

39:34

a way around it, the way he got around

39:36

everything, justifying his actions with

39:38

passages from the Bible and let's face

39:40

it, it is in there. Loads

39:43

of people in the Bible have multiple wives so

39:45

Berg changed Karen's name to Maria and moved her

39:47

into the ark with his first wife Jane. Two

39:50

of everything. Jane couldn't argue with

39:52

Berg and she didn't make her discomfort known

39:54

in the group around her but she did

39:56

cry quite a lot and made

39:58

a point of not being. In the caravan when parents

40:01

a happy with their. And

40:03

chain probably didn't love the are husband

40:05

started to refer to her as the

40:07

old Wine and the. Old Church.

40:10

And to Karen he changed my name's

40:13

Maria. He. Now called her Mama

40:15

Maria the New Wine. Or the new church. Mama

40:17

Maria is a lot more sexy. Than the

40:20

old Chinese. And

40:22

he would use them as. Parables almost.

40:24

He. Would refer to Jane as the old

40:27

says, being stuck in her ways and not

40:29

following new revelations. And then along

40:31

comes Catherine's Abby. Like. She's

40:34

sexy new church willing to do anything

40:37

that David Backes asked of her. Mama

40:40

Maria was sir the on today

40:42

the bags press Also he worked.

40:45

He publicly took Maria as a second wife. And.

40:48

Jane got a younger second husband. Gets

40:50

the jane not. you know what? Yeah

40:52

for now, Fund A! Bag.

40:57

Also came up with a new. Name for his

40:59

followers. And I hope you are

41:01

already to plummet. Because. He called

41:03

them. The. Women especially.

41:06

Faith and First. Just.

41:09

Why no one up? Which.

41:11

Again he justified with biblical talks.

41:15

In Psalms, God ordained strength out

41:17

of the mouths of babes and

41:19

suckling, which is referred to also

41:21

in the Gospel of Matthew. Yeah,

41:24

I know that out the mouths of

41:26

babes is what would say that up

41:28

saying? You know I know and it's

41:30

It's just so uncomfortable because obviously when

41:32

people say out of them out the

41:34

banks have children I presume. And

41:36

here he that faith in Christ. But.

41:38

With her. Partner.

41:43

And. I. Hate myself

41:45

as Agnes, but Jane getting a new younger

41:47

second have been on my. Pillow.

41:53

I'm just. I'm just prepping. The people are

41:55

susceptible. prepping. the people are under. So.

41:58

With Virginia State. David Berg's mother now

42:00

out of the picture and no one left to ridicule

42:02

him. David Berg began to make

42:05

prophecies. He would predict the

42:07

end of the world three times. And

42:10

spoilers, it never happens. He's very specific too. And

42:12

that's your downfall. That is a mistake. But he

42:14

survives every time. Like, they

42:16

always come back. Well, that is good going.

42:18

That is good going. Going

42:22

back to Jones' town. Jim Jones

42:24

moved his lot up to Ukea because

42:26

he was convinced it was the only

42:28

place that would not be destroyed by

42:30

the nuclear weapons that the

42:32

entire world was extremely worried about. David

42:35

Berg, however, took a different route. He

42:37

predicted that an enormous earthquake was going

42:40

to swallow up all of California, so

42:42

he decided that he was going to have to

42:45

leave Huntington Beach. But

42:48

unlike Jim Jones, crucially,

42:50

David Berg said

42:52

that not everybody could come with him.

42:55

He left some followers behind in 1969

42:57

in Huntington Beach, just in case. And

43:00

this is why he survives so

43:02

long. Decentralized government. And

43:06

eventually, after some time on the road witnessing

43:08

and singing and doing all sorts, the

43:10

Children of God decided that it was commune time and

43:12

they all moved to a ranch in Surpa, Texas owned by

43:15

none other than Fred Jordan. And he basically says, yeah, you

43:17

can live that, but can you like do it up a

43:19

bit? So they've made friends, apparently. And

43:23

the members were asked to give up all of

43:25

their worldly possessions and categorized into groups based on

43:27

the 12 tribes of Israel. Every tribe

43:29

had a different job. It's like in brownies when you're like an

43:31

imp or a pixie or things like that. As

43:34

the 12 tribes of Israel with different jobs, they

43:36

wandered through the wilderness in God's grace. The

43:39

jobs ranged from scavenging for food in

43:41

bins to just basic admin. Someone's

43:43

going to keep track of all the wealth he's accumulating and

43:46

how to hide it from the test man. But

43:49

the foragers were not allowed to eat anything that

43:51

they found. They had to deliver it straight back

43:54

to the top of the cult food chain. So

43:57

at this stage, let's recap polyamory fine

43:59

sex outside of. There is still a know

44:01

that. And

44:04

we have thought. Oh so lots of time

44:06

for the horrible sex stuff that it's to come. Back.

44:10

Was convinced that he would leading

44:12

his disciples across the United States.

44:14

And eventually away from entirely.

44:17

I've moses said let the. Jews. From Egypt. Birds

44:20

obsession with Moses is one of the

44:23

reasons this mess up blew up. In

44:25

his face, He. Never said that he was

44:27

got. Oh me, that he was

44:29

a conduit as. I. Think

44:31

that is an important point to make. A lot of

44:33

cult leaders get very trade away. They. May

44:35

start off. Just. Using preexisting religious

44:38

mumbo jumbo to let get people to

44:40

the dope pretty soon, they escalate to

44:42

saying that they are the one and

44:44

only God on Earth. But.

44:46

Doesn't do that now and again. That's

44:48

another reason say he gets away with it.

44:50

It is an astonishing amount of restraint

44:52

for a man who shows so little in

44:55

every other aspects of his life. So.

44:57

Bad identified with the Prince of

45:00

Egypt so much that he actually

45:02

changed his name to Moses. But

45:05

we're not gonna call him out because. I.

45:07

Didn't call Sean Combs. Pizza Hut is as he

45:09

did a I'm not going to call David. Bug

45:12

mattress as we won't be doing

45:14

that so. Yeah just know

45:16

he legally to change his name to Moses but we

45:18

are going to continue to call him Day that. Service.

45:21

Takes us up to January Nineteen seventy

45:23

were bird the new and the old

45:26

wine. And hundreds of babes

45:28

in Christ were at the Ranch

45:30

in Texas. In.

45:32

College he. Communal living is a

45:34

big turning point. And this

45:36

is what happened on the wrong. Those.

45:38

Living They're not only had to change their

45:40

names to biblical once. They both

45:43

had to cut off all ties with their family

45:45

and friends. Yet

45:47

again, Berg. Had that local backup

45:49

for this. Luke. Fourteen Twenty

45:51

Six. Reads: If anyone

45:53

comes to me and does not hate father and

45:55

mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and yes,

45:57

even their own life, such a person cannot be.

46:00

my disciple. Come on! Because

46:02

you must love only me. Wow. So

46:04

you can't argue, as I keep saying,

46:07

that it's not in there and that Berg didn't

46:09

know it. He knew his stuff. He

46:11

knew the Bible back to front and he wanted his followers to know it too.

46:14

Every member of the Children of God was expected to memorise

46:16

300 biblical verses within the first

46:18

three months of living on the ranch. And

46:21

actually on the ranch, the only thing that the

46:23

Children of God were allowed to possess as their

46:25

own was their Bible. Everyone had their own Bible

46:27

and that was yours. But it was the only thing

46:29

that was yours. Everything else

46:31

was shared. Clothes, shoes, hairbrushes, everything.

46:34

Meow. Who's brushes?

46:36

Didn't ask. Oh well. Let's

46:41

have a look at a normal day

46:43

out on the ranch. Mornings

46:45

were dedicated to Bible study and then the Israelites would

46:48

be given their orders for the day. Orders

46:50

would be fulfilled with one's assigned buddy. Like

46:53

the Mormons on mission, a person could never be apart from

46:55

their buddy even when they went to the loo. Oh

46:58

and when they did go to the loo they were only

47:00

allowed to use two sheets of toilet paper per bathroom visit.

47:04

But still, Berg, being a man of the

47:06

road, sent out teams to recruit yet more

47:08

babes in Christ. He sent out

47:10

teams across the whole of the North American continent

47:13

whilst maintaining the base at the ranch.

47:16

And then one day Berg got a call from

47:18

God who told him that America was

47:20

so last week and

47:22

the East was the new frontier. And

47:25

so Berg sent four six person

47:27

teams overseas and the true

47:29

legacy of the children of God began. Remember,

47:32

up until now, sex was only permitted

47:35

between married couples but Berg

47:37

had grown tired of his own law. So

47:39

he gathered up his inner circle, including his

47:41

four children and their spouses. And

47:44

they all went to a motel in Dallas and

47:46

in that motel room, with his

47:49

actual own biological children,

47:52

Berg changed that rule. He

47:56

told his closest acolytes that the rules

47:58

in the Old Testament know A. Adultery

48:00

for example, Of

48:02

conveniently superseded by the Golden

48:04

Rule from Matthew twenty to

48:07

Thirty Six. Someone else sees

48:09

his teacher was com. Almond is the greatest in

48:11

the law and Jesus declared. Love. The

48:13

Lord Your God with all your mind, this

48:15

is the first and greatest commandment. The.

48:17

Next one, it's a famous one. Love thy neighbor as

48:19

thyself. Seberg. Told his

48:21

top brass that as long as everything they

48:23

did was in love. To. Do

48:25

whatever they want it. So. Basically as long

48:28

as you can quote some bible verses you can fucking of

48:30

you want. And then David

48:32

Byrne watched all of his children foot their partners in.

48:34

Front of him in that motel room and us. Shortly.

48:38

After presumably after growing tired

48:41

of just watching. Bird.

48:43

Came up with the concept of sharing.

48:46

Were. Married couples could swap partners with each

48:48

other. Which. Also meant that separated

48:50

couples who was sent on missions

48:53

to different places could basically whoever

48:55

they wanted. This.

48:57

Is how revelations from Berg were passed

48:59

down to the eventual thousands of followers.

49:02

Thirty. Tested his new plans out with is

49:04

near his disciples. So basic an

49:06

actual children. And then the

49:09

practice would trickle down to the elected officials.

49:11

And. Yes I say elected. As. More

49:13

of the children of God spread across the

49:16

well. A very effective system of governance was

49:18

actually put in place. Each

49:21

for want of a better word colony.

49:23

Had a leader called a shit that. They.

49:25

Were elected by the groups in which they

49:27

lived. And then they reported to

49:30

an area shepherd. These.

49:32

Group homes and colonies. Quickly spread all over

49:34

the world, particularly outside of Europe because

49:37

bag taught that East was far less

49:39

corrupt in the West and therefore much

49:41

easier to say souls and. Ah,

49:44

So. Yes, That

49:46

is so very convenient and

49:49

so very very telling. He's

49:51

like. It. Very Jim Jones

49:53

the again who's like let's just move to Guyana?

49:55

Well like people on and off with many questions

49:57

about what the fuck, Hundred and little is fucking

49:59

Cyanide. flavor aid. Again it's

50:01

just like replace

50:03

every word in there that David Berg uses.

50:05

The East is less corrupt than the West and

50:08

therefore easier to save souls. I think what

50:10

he means is the East is more

50:12

corrupt than the West and therefore it's easier to rape

50:14

people. Yes,

50:16

that's exactly what he means. And

50:19

life in the group homes, as I'm sure you

50:21

can imagine, was not easy. Berg

50:24

himself spent most of his time bopping around

50:26

Europe with the old church and the new. And

50:28

he gave instructions to the shepherds by writing

50:30

letters every month. And

50:32

he called these the Mo letters. Pause

50:36

for effect. The Mo letter. Are you

50:38

thinking about Mo Lester? Yes

50:40

I am.

50:43

I am thinking about Mo Lester and his letters

50:46

that he would have eventually written me. So

50:48

in case you need it spelling out for you, Mo is

50:50

in Moses. And they even had

50:53

little pictures as well. In

50:56

1972, David Berg was living right

50:58

here in London. And

51:00

he entitled one of his famous letters

51:02

to his followers, I got

51:04

a split. Very odd

51:06

thing about David Berg. Very seventies though. So seventies

51:09

but he's also fifteen or seventy. He's not cool.

51:11

Not young and hip and with it but he'll

51:13

say things like. I got a split kid. I

51:15

got a split kid. And he's like

51:17

hey Ma, burn your bra. Like he'll just say

51:19

he speaks in Roman couplets quite a lot and

51:22

uses a lot of like new age. Oh my

51:24

god. Funky talk. Oh my god.

51:27

So these letters of which there are thousands

51:29

were entitled the Mo letters. And

51:32

it was a way in which David Berg communicated with

51:34

the children of God. All

51:36

the way out to every far flung corner

51:38

of the world that is flocked spread.

51:41

He wrote that the storm of God's judgements

51:43

begins to break upon the wickedness of the

51:45

lowlands of America. He

51:48

like Jesus was being persecuted by the

51:50

unholy and therefore he had to

51:52

disappear. From now on the Mo

51:54

letters would be the only form

51:56

of communication with his shepherds who

51:58

Had passed it on to the others. Bird.

52:01

Himself would of course be with them

52:03

in spirit, just that Jesus was with

52:05

his disciples after his ascension to heaven.

52:08

And. This separation from his followers.

52:11

Was. Also, a major reason that The

52:13

Children of God is arguably the most

52:15

successful cult of all time. I mean

52:18

that. You. Could write

52:20

a whole cult business butler. On

52:22

this and it basically like look found a

52:25

lead Businesses are very hard because the fact

52:27

intense about six if they take little steps

52:29

that and let the business on itself. Things.

52:32

Can sometimes be more successful aka.

52:35

The. David Bad Model The David Bag model is

52:37

A You're much more difficult to catch if not

52:39

even your closest follow is no way you. This

52:41

is true and am. I mean

52:43

hands off in the loosest possible sense because

52:45

as we will find out, he's a very

52:47

hands on. In

52:54

actual fact, very few of the children of

52:56

God. Knew. What David Not? Even

52:58

looked like no photographs of him

53:00

with circulated. And even when he

53:02

was featured in the mail letters in a little cartoons,

53:04

he was either depicted as like a classic cars in

53:06

God man like long beard, White robe, etc.

53:09

Oh, he was drawn as a human man with a

53:11

headline because no one can help you in if they

53:13

don't know what you look like. Very interesting. do you

53:16

think that was he's. Reason

53:18

behind not being so

53:20

visibly person. Throughout his

53:22

group I think there are so

53:24

many decisions made by him and

53:26

or parents are be that a

53:28

so clever. If it was

53:31

just a one off our be like oh, it's

53:33

a coincidence but there's so many of them and

53:35

he evades justice for ever. I

53:37

think he didn't know what. Is

53:41

it was purposeful and deliberate. It is. T.

53:44

Even the idea of is David bad guys.

53:46

It no one knows who he is so they can

53:48

just keep the whole shebang running by sub seeing him

53:51

of the different person. Or.

53:56

the server a didn't hear that the

53:58

surface go back to suspending your beliefs

54:01

immediately. So

54:03

this sudden shift from spiritual being

54:06

rather than colony visitor might

54:08

have had something to do

54:10

with New York's charity fraud

54:12

bureau investigation on Berg and

54:15

his associates for fiscal chagenary

54:17

and perversion of the course of justice

54:19

because it did happen at a

54:22

similar time. Berg

54:24

encouraged his followers to leave the States too. So in 1973

54:27

there was a mass exodus of

54:29

the children of God for over 130

54:31

colonies and Berg continued to send his

54:33

Mo letters telling

54:41

all the children of God how to live every

54:44

second of their lives. Now

54:46

if you want to go and look at

54:48

the Mo letters for yourself then you can

54:50

give them a quick google and they are

54:52

there for your viewing displeasure but we

54:55

really wouldn't recommend it. They are

54:57

incredibly graphic and quite a

54:59

lot of them involve no

55:01

surprises, child molestation, gang

55:03

rape and really awful cartoon

55:06

images. I have seen these before

55:09

and I would just say don't

55:11

do it. You just don't need

55:13

it. Nobody needs to watch the

55:15

Serbian film, nobody needs to read the

55:17

Mo letters. They are either incredibly

55:19

boring of how many times you should take

55:21

a shit a day or they

55:24

are just… Cholery. Yeah.

55:28

Now what we have attempted to do instead

55:30

is collect examples of some of the

55:32

most batshit things that Berg wrote down

55:34

in his Mo letters without making

55:36

us all so depressed that we want to end it

55:38

all. Yeah, we've read them, you don't have to.

55:42

One of the first Mo letters that he

55:44

ever sent out confirmed that sharing spouses sexually

55:46

was fine because Jesus loved sex, it's actually

55:48

the devil that hates it. What?

55:52

Plot twist? wife

56:01

as well.

56:03

And it was also unfair for single

56:05

people to be lonely left out. In addition to

56:07

that he wrote that having sex in front of children

56:09

was totally fine because there is no shame in sex.

56:11

So he's like a sexual

56:13

communist as well. Oh yeah. Everyone gets sex. No

56:16

one is left out at the sex whether you

56:18

want to give them the sex or not. And

56:21

children were also told this in their

56:23

own version of the Mo letters called

56:25

Kids with a Z. No! Kids

56:27

True Comics and I've written comics with a C but I do

56:29

believe it was comics with a K. And

56:32

in these comics the children were told that

56:34

everyone sleeping in the same bed was fine

56:36

and that nobody should be wearing underwear in

56:38

bed and adults were encouraged to check this

56:40

before bedtime. Children

56:44

were told that when the end times came

56:46

they would be able to shoot lasers out

56:48

of their eyes and fire from

56:50

their mouths in order to

56:52

defeat the Antichrist. They were

56:55

physically trained from young ages literally

56:57

preparing for war. And

57:00

because the only other books they were allowed to

57:02

read were the Three Musketeers and the Count of

57:04

Monte Cristo the children wholeheartedly

57:06

believed it. I

57:08

always find it very strange that

57:11

children and cults... I'm sure it's not

57:13

the first time I've seen this where they're allowed the Count of Monte

57:15

Cristo as one of their... Why? Is this a

57:18

story about like... It's a jailbreak! Yeah!

57:20

Yeah! No! Why? Why? And

57:23

it's fucking massive! What child is reading

57:26

the Count of Monte Cristo? Anyway,

57:29

the Mo letters were filled with

57:32

women wearing floaty see-through scarves, most

57:34

of the time having sex with lion-headed Berg.

57:38

The women of the colonies dressed up like

57:40

these women and sent videos of themselves dancing

57:42

to Burke and these videos included the children

57:44

of the cults as well. Berg

57:47

made it very clear in his letters that quote,

57:49

boys get semen and girls get their periods if

57:51

God didn't intend them to start having sex then

57:54

they wouldn't be able to procreate at that age. So

57:56

nothing wrong with sex ever at all as

57:59

long as it's... Practiced. In

58:01

Love. Even if that

58:03

sex with a child. Even.

58:06

Your own. I'm once more bad pointed

58:08

to the bible to backed himself up. In.

58:10

A letter from simple to the Corinthian Paul

58:12

wrote. All. Things are lawful.

58:14

To me. But. All things are not

58:16

helpful. So. Basically, do whatever you like,

58:19

but don't let the system see. Do it. Now.

58:21

Cause By far the most concerning element

58:23

of The Children of God is the

58:26

abuse of the children that were either

58:28

born. Into. The Pope or brought in by

58:30

their parents. We. Have a

58:32

lot more on that next week. But.

58:34

He is a brief as as he. As

58:36

we said, children and adults or slept

58:39

community. And. Underwear with the didn't. And

58:42

because even before. The children are burrow

58:44

into it because there are years where that doesn't happen. Even

58:48

before that. Because.

58:50

Sex is so encouraged and let the thing you're He

58:52

always heard interviews with people he left. The children of

58:54

God is that like God is love and love. Sex

58:56

and of what you're told So. Adult: The fucking

58:58

each other in front of children all the time. And.

59:00

That's the thing, it's the idea of the cult

59:03

leader if you want more information while but pit

59:05

of upcoming on September. And but definitely this

59:07

idea of when you join a pulp right? The

59:09

cult leaders vision. The cult leaders view of the

59:11

way in which well should be the would decline

59:13

of deviant life that they want to live as.

59:16

They. Don't want to be a deviant on

59:18

the outskirts of a society. They. Want

59:20

to create their own society with in

59:23

which they're deviance is normalized and that's

59:25

exactly what you see. David been doing

59:27

it. He creates this group with hundreds

59:29

of thousands of follow was all over

59:31

the world and then he uses the

59:34

more letters as a vessel to normalize

59:36

and whoop. the view and vision and

59:38

the framework of reference for all of

59:40

his cult members to go along with

59:42

his own levels. Of deviance the he wants

59:44

to live. In the once you've normalized

59:46

it, you're not freak anymore. You're

59:49

not a criminal anymore. You're doing

59:51

what everybody's doing. But. You made them

59:53

do it. So.

59:55

the attitude a child rearing in the

59:57

cope with very much it takes a

59:59

village women did not spend any

1:00:01

more time with their own children than anyone else's.

1:00:04

Everyone was a mama or an auntie. In

1:00:07

one of the books it said that for the lady who

1:00:09

leaves, her mum is still in I think. She

1:00:11

was like, I was one of 10 children and, or

1:00:14

maybe it's a YouTube video actually, she was

1:00:16

like, I was one of 10 children and I saw my own biological

1:00:19

mother for an hour a week and it was spread

1:00:21

across everyone, you didn't spend any more time with

1:00:23

your actual mother than you did with anyone else.

1:00:26

Again, very, very communist though, if you believe in

1:00:28

that, like he's preaching what he's saying. It's this

1:00:30

idea of like, it's not about individual

1:00:32

nuclear families, it's about the state or

1:00:34

i.e. the village raising your child. Again,

1:00:36

so that the family

1:00:39

cannot have too much of an

1:00:41

attachment to their own child. It's

1:00:43

a group communal living, everyone is as

1:00:45

important as everyone else. Your child is not

1:00:47

or should not be more important to you

1:00:49

than anyone else's child, which is

1:00:51

obviously goes against biology. The

1:00:55

fathers taking their sons to sex workers

1:00:57

in the cult, very young, was also

1:00:59

incredibly common and boys were

1:01:01

asked which of their aunties they

1:01:03

wanted to have sex with. This

1:01:06

sort of teaching of how to

1:01:08

have sex never goes away.

1:01:12

In 1982 Berg and Karen

1:01:14

Zerbe released a child raising

1:01:16

handbook and they

1:01:18

declared that children were no longer allowed to attend

1:01:20

any kind of school outside of the cult. This

1:01:23

book was 700 pages long and included everything

1:01:25

the children needed to know according to Berg,

1:01:28

which is evolution is a lie, simple arithmetic and boys

1:01:30

got to do geometry because they had to take up

1:01:33

a tree. The

1:01:35

children were also treated to another comic

1:01:38

called Heaven's Girl, who's

1:01:40

a 15 year old superhero who knocked

1:01:42

around in a see-through toga and a

1:01:44

shepherd's crook. She was an

1:01:46

end times prophet with supernatural powers. Her

1:01:49

escapades came to the cult monthly with

1:01:51

the Mo letters. And there are

1:01:53

lots of stories about Heaven's Girl, there are hundreds and hundreds of

1:01:55

editions. Again, you can find them if you want, I wouldn't recommend

1:01:57

it. There's one story which I haven't been able to get up my

1:01:59

way. ahead where Heaven's Girl is

1:02:01

captured by a gang of soldiers and

1:02:04

she's raped by them and then they

1:02:06

throw her to the lions but instead of fighting

1:02:08

the sexual assault off, Heaven's Girl, whose name is

1:02:10

Mary Claire, she submits to the rape

1:02:12

and whispers about Jesus to the soldiers as

1:02:15

they rape her and that makes them feel

1:02:17

so guilty and filled with the word

1:02:19

of Christ that they come back and rescue her

1:02:21

from the lions and she is completely unharmed. Exactly

1:02:23

how the wind will get raped. Phew,

1:02:26

phew, phew. Minor details.

1:02:29

Well that's one of his catchphrases is you don't have

1:02:31

to worry about rape and the children of God it

1:02:33

doesn't happen. Yep. Because women are just

1:02:35

told that they have to submit. Yeah. And

1:02:37

that happens to Heaven's Girl a lot. She uses

1:02:39

sex and submission to escape the Antichrist

1:02:42

forces. She also performs

1:02:44

the miracles of Moses and she can make

1:02:46

people go blind as well. Lovely. It's

1:02:49

interesting that they do this Heaven's Girl one

1:02:51

because they also rape the boys just as

1:02:53

much. Right. It's a free-for-all isn't it? Well,

1:02:56

kind of, yes. But male

1:02:59

homosexuality, absolutely no. So the

1:03:01

women were allowed to fuck the little boys but

1:03:03

David Berg was very much like a,

1:03:05

he called them sodomites. So he, that

1:03:07

wasn't fine. Lesbianism, totally fine obviously. Sure,

1:03:10

sure. But so all of the

1:03:12

boys were raped predominantly by the older women. Yep.

1:03:15

And again with cult formation this is one

1:03:17

of the most interesting things, right? It's

1:03:19

that move from you just

1:03:21

doing perverse things and trying to get

1:03:23

away with it to the power and

1:03:25

the gratification that would give someone like

1:03:27

David Berg to take quote-unquote normal people

1:03:29

because there's hundreds of thousands of people in the

1:03:32

top. They can't all be pedophiles. They can't all

1:03:34

be child sex offenders when they join. Because that

1:03:36

wasn't even, like you said, a part of the

1:03:38

deal at the very start. So

1:03:40

his power and control

1:03:42

and that glory for him comes

1:03:45

from taking relatively normal people

1:03:47

that he finds to join this cult

1:03:50

and then not just normalizing his

1:03:52

fucked up deviant world view onto them

1:03:54

but then also getting them to commit

1:03:57

the most heinous crimes imaginable like

1:03:59

rape. Our children. It

1:04:01

is mind boggling. So.

1:04:04

What? We'd never been able to get a hitter. Is.

1:04:07

How all of this came from

1:04:09

the mind of man? Feral, thousands,

1:04:11

Of my letters and I mean thousands. And

1:04:13

I think it was something like I read

1:04:16

his i three million pages. Were. Distributed

1:04:18

by the children of God every month and

1:04:20

they're like site. It's. Unbelievable.

1:04:22

But then, maybe. It's

1:04:24

not like you doing anything else nasty got than

1:04:27

that and George Rr Martin not comparing and Daves

1:04:29

back but like eat people can come up with

1:04:31

entire world's a migraine condo at me like nice.

1:04:34

Reading. The bigger question here is

1:04:36

also, how could a mind like

1:04:38

David Bugs becomes a complete. A prayed

1:04:40

when it came to sit. Well

1:04:43

with put a little story for you the might

1:04:45

explain some of the original. Limburg.

1:04:48

Was nineteen and driving his mother

1:04:50

around. He. Wrote and one of my

1:04:53

letters. That. He was sharing a bed with his

1:04:55

mother on the road. It

1:04:57

was cold so she wrapped him up in a

1:04:59

warm embrace. Apparently. Bird first

1:05:01

reaction was one of shop. But.

1:05:03

He also admitted. Thanks. For

1:05:06

the first time in my life, I had

1:05:08

sexual feelings about my own mother. He

1:05:10

describes how attractive she was in have seen

1:05:13

night com. And. Then. How

1:05:15

he got him if. He

1:05:18

wrote in a my Letter. Had I been

1:05:20

less of a square? I may

1:05:22

have been more responsive. It. Could

1:05:24

have been a beautiful. Sexual. Relationship.

1:05:29

At that M. P's.

1:05:31

Nineteen years old here and he has also

1:05:33

been under the thumb and under the control

1:05:36

of his mother, who is. I think

1:05:38

safe to say anything. A domineering woman.

1:05:40

His entire life. So whatever was

1:05:43

going on here? She we

1:05:45

can say is absolutely the instigator. Because

1:05:47

David Bowie terrified of her. So she

1:05:49

is the one with all the policies.

1:05:51

The one with the control. Over everything David

1:05:54

burgers on to become. The.

1:05:57

Roots of it lie. In. His own

1:05:59

sexual abuse. It. Before.

1:06:05

We let! you gotta love to mentally prepare yourself for

1:06:07

what we have in store next week. Going.

1:06:09

To throw in a bit of children of go

1:06:11

trivia we'd it's not widely reported on. Bug.

1:06:15

With big mates with none other than

1:06:17

Colonel Gaddafi. Why? Not

1:06:19

sick. Bag

1:06:22

with actually invited to Libya by all

1:06:24

plastic bag face and in that. When

1:06:27

she saw this as an opportunity to spread even

1:06:29

more of the word. So. We did plenty

1:06:31

of these women with him to fuck all of the Libyan

1:06:33

leaders. Bird. In his hobby, him actually

1:06:36

stayed in Libya for two whole months. That.

1:06:38

As soon as it became clear that

1:06:40

Gaddafi had literally no intention of converting,

1:06:42

bug went back into hiding and back

1:06:44

to his old tricks. I

1:06:46

think the point was that Gaddafi was hoping that

1:06:49

the Children of God because our American, would use

1:06:51

their reach to publish positive things about his regime.

1:06:54

But. That didn't have the heat.

1:06:56

So everyone lost and situation.

1:06:58

Yeah, I mean Gaddafi must have just been told on

1:07:00

his guy. He writes like. Three. Million newsletters

1:07:02

a year and it has an incredible reach

1:07:05

all around the mouth. Unease. American, but I

1:07:07

can't imagine the even chemical after he was. Quite

1:07:09

glad when David burglar slipped up.

1:07:12

And that takes us up to nineteen seventy

1:07:15

Four, when Bug and his nearest and dearest

1:07:17

were living right here in London. And.

1:07:19

Karen's abby. Started. To

1:07:21

fuck a lot of people who weren't David Bed.

1:07:24

And bag break this into the mole letter

1:07:26

scripture. Called it. Slutty,

1:07:28

Fishing. Which. Were going to tell you all

1:07:31

about next week. Come. Back then if you're brave

1:07:33

enough. Yep, identify him and I

1:07:35

promise to explain the garlic and I'm also

1:07:37

a great cry. Even want to leave lot

1:07:39

particular slots? have. A gaping

1:07:42

else says leave. okay

1:07:44

that's it guys will be back next week

1:07:46

for thought to be received by nice Prime

1:08:02

members, you can listen to Red Handed

1:08:04

early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download

1:08:07

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1:08:11

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you go, tell us a little bit

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about yourself by completing a short survey

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at wondery.com/survey. In the

1:08:20

climate ravaged year of 2072, the

1:08:22

city of Pura stands as a

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miraculous green haven, a geo-engineered paradise

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that protects fortunate residents from the

1:08:29

global catastrophes of heat domes, fires,

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floods and droughts. Demetria Lopez heads

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up Pura's public relations, tirelessly promoting

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the city's idyllic image. But when

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she stumbles upon a dark secret

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that if exposed would be the

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downfall of Pura's existence, she must

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decide who and what she

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is willing to protect. From Wondery,

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the makers of Academy and Dr.

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Death, The Last City stars actors

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