0:04

Hello there, I am Monica Reinagle and

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you are listening to The Nutrition Diva.

0:09

This is a show where we take

0:11

an evidence-based look at the latest headlines,

0:14

trends, and today at Netflix

0:17

documentaries so that you can make

0:19

more informed decisions about what you

0:21

eat. There's a new series

0:23

on Netflix called You Are What You

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Eat, and this is one of a

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growing number of documentary films advocating

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for vegan diets. Now

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I don't have enough time in this podcast

0:35

to go through the entire multi-part series point

0:37

by point, but I will include

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a link in the show notes to a

0:42

good review written by my colleague dietician Abby Langer

0:44

in which she raises some excellent points about

0:47

the various claims made. But

0:49

I do want to point out that these

0:52

filmmakers are not seeking

0:54

to present a balanced view of

0:57

a complex topic in order

0:59

to allow you to come to your own

1:01

conclusions. They know what conclusion they want you

1:03

to draw and they are using every tool

1:05

at their disposal to lead you to it.

1:09

Keep in mind as well that filmmakers

1:11

are also in the entertainment business, so

1:13

they are going to make

1:16

their story as sensational, shocking,

1:18

heart-rending, controversial, or hair-raising as

1:20

they possibly can. Watching

1:23

a movie or a series like this may

1:25

be informative, it may be entertaining, but

1:27

it's less like reading an

1:29

investigative journalism piece, more

1:32

like attending a campaign rally.

1:35

I had a lot more to say about these

1:37

types of documentaries in episode number 437 where I

1:39

responded to the documentary What the Health. Now,

1:45

let me address one

1:47

of the specific arguments presented in You

1:49

Are What You Eat, namely, that

1:51

drinking the milk of other animals,

1:54

like cows, or drinking

1:56

any milk at all beyond infancy

1:59

is both undisturbed. natural and unhealthy

2:02

Now before I get into this, I just want to repeat

2:04

something. I've said many times before Drinking

2:07

milk consuming dairy is not

2:09

necessary for good nutrition or

2:11

for strong bones And

2:13

I completely support anyone who decides for

2:15

whatever reason that they don't want to

2:17

consume it If you've decided you don't

2:20

want to drink milk, I'm not going to

2:22

try to talk you into it if

2:24

on the other hand you ask me about

2:27

the benefits or risks of Dairy

2:29

or any other food. I will

2:32

try to give you a balanced and evidence-based

2:34

answer so that you can base your decision

2:36

on good information Now

2:39

I've certainly heard these arguments against

2:41

drinking milk before maybe

2:43

you've heard them too, maybe you've made them

2:46

and Often there

2:48

is a lot of emotion involved in

2:50

these conversations and that can make it

2:52

hard to have a

2:54

productive dialogue about this issue, but

2:56

I'd really like to try Although

2:59

they often get jumbled together.

3:02

There are actually three

3:04

completely different arguments here Number

3:07

one that drinking milk is unnatural

3:10

number two that drinking milk is unhealthy

3:12

And number three that drinking milk

3:15

is cruel It

3:17

is possible to accept or reject One

3:21

of these arguments without accepting or rejecting

3:23

them all so let's consider them one

3:25

by one first off is drinking

3:28

milk unnatural I

3:32

would submit that the natural world

3:34

does not operate with intention nor

3:36

is it all that attached to

3:38

a plan In fact

3:41

some of nature's greatest hits

3:43

are the result of random

3:45

errors and unintended consequences And

3:48

nature also doesn't care about right

3:50

or wrong or whether something is

3:52

fair or ethical or cruel All

3:56

nature cares about is

3:58

what works if it's If a

4:00

bird lays an egg that hatches into a

4:02

baby bird, which matures and

4:04

lays another egg, that works for nature.

4:07

But if that egg is stolen out of

4:09

the nest by a hungry raccoon who goes

4:11

on to reproduce, well,

4:14

you know what? That works too. Nature

4:16

isn't rooting for the bird any

4:18

more than it is rooting for the raccoon. In

4:21

fact, if nature were actually capable of

4:23

rooting for anything, it

4:26

would probably hope that just enough

4:28

eggs get stolen to ensure plenty

4:30

of baby raccoons and plenty of

4:33

baby birds. To

4:35

the extent that consuming dairy

4:37

products enhanced the survival and

4:40

the reproduction of prehistoric humans,

4:43

who then turned around and committed some

4:45

of their resources to enhancing the

4:47

survival and reproduction of dairy animals,

4:50

the fact that humans learned to use the

4:53

milk of other species has actually worked out

4:55

pretty well for nature, so

4:57

much so that some branches of

5:00

the human family have evolved to

5:02

continue to produce milk digesting enzymes

5:04

throughout adulthood. And

5:06

the objection to things that are not natural

5:09

also seems to be somewhat selective. If

5:12

you are willing to switch on the light after

5:14

the sun goes down or use an alarm clock

5:16

to wake you up or get

5:18

in a jet plane and catapult yourself across three

5:20

or four time zones in a few hours or

5:23

run long distances without anything chasing you or

5:25

take a vitamin pill, then

5:27

you are doing quite a few things

5:30

that are arguably a lot less natural

5:32

than drinking milk. The

5:35

fact is that mother's milk contains

5:37

nutrients that benefit animals other

5:39

than that mother's babies. And

5:42

it would be unnatural for those

5:44

other animals to ignore that discovery.

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7:07

second argument that I'd like to examine

7:09

is whether drinking milk is unhealthy. Now,

7:12

of course, just about anything can

7:15

be consumed in quantities or contexts

7:17

that make it harmful. But

7:19

are dairy products bad for you when they

7:22

are consumed in the context of a balanced

7:24

and nutritious diet? Do they

7:26

cause heart disease, cancer, or

7:29

other diseases? People

7:31

sometimes point to a correlation between

7:33

dairy consumption and osteoporosis, for example.

7:37

But just because two things occur simultaneously

7:39

does not mean that one thing causes

7:41

the other. And in this case, there

7:44

are several much more likely

7:47

explanations for why these particular

7:49

populations might have higher rates

7:51

of osteoporosis, including genetics, activity

7:53

levels, and other aspects of

7:56

diet and lifestyle. within

8:00

these populations instead of across

8:02

them, milk and

8:04

dairy consumption are associated with better

8:06

bone health. And that makes sense

8:09

because milk is an excellent source

8:11

of absorbable calcium, vitamin D and

8:13

other nutrients that help to build

8:15

strong bones. And if you'd

8:17

like to hear more about that, you can check out Nutrition

8:19

Diva episode number 269, does

8:22

dairy weaken your bones? Others

8:25

have claimed that drinking milk causes breast

8:27

cancer and this was an argument based

8:30

mostly on animal or test tube studies

8:33

and some observations gleaned

8:35

from a single highly

8:37

unrepresentative population. As

8:40

I discussed in my episode on diet and

8:42

breast cancer, dozens of studies,

8:44

several of them involving thousands of

8:46

human subjects have investigated

8:48

the possible relationship between dairy

8:51

consumption and breast cancer. And

8:53

researchers have failed to show a consistent

8:55

link between dairy consumption and breast

8:57

cancer. In fact, in a few

9:00

of those studies, dairy consumption was

9:02

actually linked to a slight reduction

9:04

of risk. And

9:06

you can hear more about that in episode number 565,

9:10

does milk increase breast cancer risk? And I'll have

9:12

links to all of these in the show notes

9:14

for you. So

9:16

if you are trying to build a case against milk

9:19

or dairy, you can sift

9:21

through the scientific literature and to

9:24

find individual studies that suggest a

9:26

link between dairy intake and various

9:28

diseases. If you

9:30

look a bit further, you

9:32

are also likely to find other

9:34

studies finding that dairy consumption reduces

9:37

the risk of those same diseases. When

9:40

you step back and look at the literature as

9:42

a whole, not to mention

9:44

the evolutionary history of our species,

9:47

it's hard to make a case

9:49

that dairy products are uniquely harmful

9:51

to humans. You can

9:53

build a healthy diet with or without dairy

9:55

products. And of course the opposite is also

9:58

true, simply including or excluding. dairy

10:00

will not necessarily make your entire

10:02

diet healthful. So

10:05

whether the nutritional or the culinary

10:07

benefits of dairy outweigh

10:09

the potential risks is

10:12

going to come down to individual judgment,

10:14

and that will probably be heavily influenced

10:16

by which sources of information you choose

10:19

to consider. It may

10:21

also depend on your individual health concerns and

10:23

your priorities. Eliminating

10:25

milk from your diet may clear up your

10:27

acne, but reduce your chances of getting pregnant,

10:30

for example. Whatever

10:32

you choose, you have my

10:34

full support. My

10:37

support, however, does not extend

10:39

to tolerating false or

10:41

misleading information. And

10:44

the third argument against consuming dairy

10:46

is that dairy farming is cruel

10:49

or unethical, and this

10:51

is a moral or a philosophical question.

10:54

Now I am not a professional ethicist,

10:56

but even the experts struggle with this one.

11:00

Some might argue that the inalienable

11:02

right to life, liberty, and the

11:04

pursuit of happiness is not limited

11:06

to humans, but extends

11:08

equally to all living things, and

11:10

that keeping dairy cows is morally

11:12

equivalent to keeping slaves. Others

11:15

might feel that it's okay to take

11:17

a cow's milk in exchange for providing

11:20

its food and shelter, but

11:22

only as long as the cows are treated well. Given

11:25

the limitations of cross-species

11:28

communication, not to mention

11:30

intracespecies communication, there's

11:32

a lot of room for debate over

11:35

what constitutes a good life for a

11:37

cow. Come to think of it, there's

11:39

a fair amount of debate over what's a good life

11:41

for humans. We all

11:44

have to come to our own conclusions

11:46

on this question, and once again, this

11:48

will probably be heavily influenced by what

11:50

sources of information we consider. Personally,

11:54

I welcome the increased focus on

11:56

animal welfare and the mounting

11:59

demand for more human life. main treatment

12:01

of agricultural animals. For example, there

12:03

is now a growing movement in the dairy industry to

12:06

keep calves with the mother cows until

12:08

they are weaned. And this certainly

12:10

seems to be a step in the

12:12

right direction in terms of balancing the

12:14

rights and welfare of the cows and

12:16

the humans who benefit either financially or

12:18

nutritionally from the milk that the cows

12:20

produce. To the

12:23

extent that I consume animal products, I

12:25

go out of my way to identify and support

12:28

producers who treat their livestock well, even

12:30

when that means I pay a little bit

12:32

more. And

12:34

I recognize that others strongly

12:36

believe that there is no

12:38

way to consume animal products

12:40

without cruelty. But

12:42

here's my final thought. If

12:44

you want to convince others that

12:47

drinking milk is morally indefensible, I

12:50

would stay away from the arguments about being

12:52

unnatural to drink milk, if I were you,

12:55

because that logic really doesn't hold up

12:57

very well under scrutiny. And

12:59

similarly, assertions that milk is

13:01

unhealthy or causes disease are

13:03

easy to refute or at least

13:05

counter with hard evidence. Both

13:08

of these flawed arguments end

13:11

up diverting attention away from the

13:13

important conversation that can and should

13:16

be had about whether using animals

13:18

for food is or

13:20

can be made ethically

13:23

acceptable. As

13:25

always, I welcome your comments and

13:27

your questions on this or any

13:29

other nutrition-related topic. You

13:32

can email me at nutrition at quickanddirtytips.com.

13:35

You can also leave me a voicemail at

13:37

443-9616206. I'd

13:42

ask you, no matter what your feelings on this

13:44

issue are, that you treat

13:46

me with the same respect that I will

13:48

treat you and your point of view. I'd

13:52

also like to invite you to check out my

13:54

other podcast, it's called The Change Academy. And there

13:56

we look at the art and science of creating

13:58

positive behavior Change, Their own

14:00

lives and in our workplaces and

14:02

communities, you can find it on

14:04

all the major patch platforms to

14:06

Search For Change Academy. Peterson.

14:09

Diva is a quick and dirty

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Tips podcast supported by a wonderful

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team including Brennan Get Your Knees

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and son's Divina Tomlin Holly Hutchings

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thanks to all of them and

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thanks. To you for listening of the

14:23

next week.