0:01

If you're looking to commune with your dad. The

0:03

website for the Southern Cassadega

0:05

Spiritualist Camp offers a menu

0:08

of forty mediums at any given

0:10

time, and thirty two of them

0:13

are women. Holy shit right.

0:15

For the vast majority of those mediums,

0:18

it's a second act in their lives. While

0:21

a few were actually raised

0:23

in the spiritualist tradition, they're

0:25

more likely to flock to the camp after

0:27

careers as teachers, as

0:30

I T specialists, as astrologers,

0:33

yoga instructors, realtors, stay

0:35

at home moms, paralegals, and

0:37

my favorite Manhattan stockbrokers

0:40

who had crises of faith after nine eleven.

0:43

For real. There's a lot of different kinds

0:45

of mediums here, and this has always been

0:47

a strength of the religion. I think on

0:49

this show, we've been exploring the story

0:51

of the Fox Sisters effectively considered

0:54

the religions nineteenth century founders

0:56

and a number of the religion's most respected

0:58

figures who are also women. And

1:01

yet, you know, we still live in

1:03

a society. I hate that phrase,

1:05

but it's true. In spiritualism,

1:08

history contextualizes the way history

1:11

often does. Male spiritualists

1:13

tend to be considered more academic,

1:16

logic driven scientific

1:19

philosophers and scientists who popularize

1:21

the ideas that became spiritualism

1:23

were men Emmanuel Swedenborg,

1:26

Anton Mesmer, and Andrew Jackson

1:28

Davis. Women have always been

1:30

extremely present in American

1:32

spiritualism, but like the

1:34

Fox Sisters, were more likely to

1:36

be framed as intuitives as

1:39

opposed to a more masculine

1:41

academic and well, there's nothing wrong

1:43

with a more traditionally feminine approach

1:46

to the religion. In fact, I really appreciated

1:49

societally that will always nearly

1:51

translate to a little less influence

1:54

and somewhat less control over your

1:56

own image basin point

1:58

the Fox Sisters themselves. Fortunately,

2:01

because spiritualism is a modern religion,

2:03

women can publish and share their own

2:05

experiences. So for this episode,

2:08

I was curious what the life of a

2:10

modern medium in Cassadega

2:13

was like, and since the majority of

2:15

them are women, I wanted to speak

2:17

to women. We've been talking a lot about

2:19

my experiences in Cassadega in

2:21

this show, so this week I

2:23

wanted to put things on pause a little bit

2:26

and give some focus to four women

2:28

who have been there in

2:31

Cassadega for years as mediums,

2:33

as healers, as workers, as

2:36

organizers. I've encountered all

2:38

four of these Cassadegans at some point

2:40

during my visit, and they were the

2:42

only people in the increasingly

2:44

press averse Cassadega to agree

2:46

to interview with me on the record. Poor

2:49

little Jamie. So this episode

2:52

is going to be a little bit different. In our next

2:54

episode and in the back half of the show

2:56

altogether, we're gonna look at things like

2:59

what became of those founding Fox

3:01

Sisters, how they grew to disclaim

3:03

their own faith. Will take a long

3:06

overdue look at the whiteness of American

3:08

spiritualism, it's adaptations

3:10

into other cultures, and the indigenous

3:13

quote unquote spirit guides that

3:15

still play a large role in the faith

3:17

in spite of little Indigenous participation.

3:20

We'll talk about spiritualism's history

3:22

as a religion based in science. Hell,

3:25

we'll talk to the dead ourselves.

3:28

But this week I want to hand the mic over

3:30

to people who have radically changed the

3:32

direction of their own lives to move

3:35

to Central Florida and join a community

3:37

where mediumship and healing are

3:40

the prime directive. And the effect

3:42

that that community and the skepticism

3:44

surrounding it has had on their lives.

3:47

So here they are, after months

3:50

of jumping through hoops to win the approval

3:52

of the Cassadega Press Board for

3:54

women willing to talk to me about

3:57

their experiences in Cassadega

4:00

and American spiritualism.

4:02

Okay, So, my name is Debbie Jordan's

4:05

and I am a certified

4:08

spiritualist medium

4:10

and healer. So my name is Jamie

4:12

Osmond and I am activities coordinator.

4:15

Alady, my name is Lorie Carter,

4:18

and I'm a certified medium here no

4:20

forermitted teacher in Cassadega Spiritualist

4:23

Camp. My name is Selenie Greene,

4:25

and I am the Cassadega Camp bookstore

4:28

manager. So let's do it. Let's

4:31

trace four different journeys to Cassadega

4:34

via the searcher, the writer, the

4:36

religious, and the former skeptic.

4:39

Are you curious, I'm curious. Let's

4:41

get some music going here. Okay, okay,

5:08

kay, okay.

5:38

I want to start with deb Jordan's a

5:40

chair in Cassadega, the organizational

5:43

kind of chair, not the kind you would see levitate

5:46

in the nineteenth century, allegedly. But

5:48

before I do that, I want to make a quick correction

5:51

here. I've been calling her pastor

5:53

deb throughout this series, but I should

5:55

clarify that this isn't a formal title

5:57

that she holds at the camp, although she

6:00

can be found frequently running Sunday

6:02

services at the George Colby Temple,

6:05

conducting readings, leading meditations,

6:07

then on and on. She functions

6:10

as a pastor as I understand

6:12

pastors to be yes. But to be

6:14

clear, Cassadega's certified

6:16

mediums are differentiated between

6:19

regular certified mediums and healers

6:21

and those who have gone even further

6:23

into their studies and become reverence.

6:27

Eighteen of the forty mediums working

6:29

in Cassadega are reverence or,

6:32

in the case of three of the very present

6:34

men I've encountered in Cassadega so

6:36

far on this podcast, reverend

6:39

doctors. But in my mind she's

6:42

always pastored up. Sorry, that is

6:44

of the boomer generation. She grew up

6:46

in Kentucky and eventually moved

6:48

down to Florida. Unlike many in

6:50

the community, she actually didn't grow

6:52

up with a lot of religion and originally

6:55

became interested in church by

6:57

going by herself as a kid. I

6:59

grew up actually in

7:02

a family I would say we were really non

7:04

church I had a grandmother that was

7:06

very spiritual, and I would say, you know,

7:08

she probably was more

7:10

about maybe Southern

7:13

Baptist. I

7:17

wasn't a regular participant in

7:19

any kind of church or anything

7:21

like that until I was probably about

7:23

twelve or thirteen years old, and my mother didn't

7:26

go to church. But I took

7:28

it upon myself to walk to the neighborhood

7:30

church, presential Um, a Baptist

7:33

church, and so I got very involved

7:36

in the youth choir and was singing

7:38

with the youth choir. The first bill trip

7:40

that I went on with with the church.

7:42

My mother was like, well, how did you find this place? And

7:45

so it was just something that I think

7:47

from a child up

7:49

that I had a draw a spiritual

7:52

connection. This interest, any concept

7:54

of spirit in the afterlife from a young age,

7:57

is a continuous through line, regardless

7:59

of where the person is from or how they

8:01

were raised, and this interest would

8:04

often be kick started with some sort

8:06

of experience of seeing

8:09

or experiencing spirit.

8:11

Here's medium Lourie Carter and

8:14

so I'm from the midwest,

8:16

Wisconsin who lived there for joy

8:19

for years, and I guess

8:21

I could say that we grew up Methodist.

8:24

I guess I would have to say, have I spent

8:26

an intuitive and really didn't

8:29

know it? Um. In fact,

8:31

one of my first master teachers that

8:33

I was the greatest knower she ever knew.

8:36

So. I was born near Pittsburgh

8:39

and I lived there until my parents

8:41

divorced when I was nine, and

8:44

my mother was from Florida, so she moved

8:46

me and her back to Florida. And

8:49

um So I've been here since and

8:52

I've seen spirit

8:55

pretty much all my life. The first time I

8:57

remember seeing I think I was two years old.

8:59

I was is raised in a very religious

9:02

family, very Southern

9:04

Baptist, very old

9:07

Florida. I'm from Silver

9:09

Spring, Maryland, which is a suburb of Washington,

9:12

d C. And um.

9:14

Both of my parents are NASA

9:17

original NASA astronomers. They they

9:20

were one of the few married couples at the beginning

9:22

of NASA. Hold on, yes,

9:24

you did hear that correctly. Selena

9:27

is of particular interest to me, not

9:30

just because she is the offspring

9:32

of two famous NASA astronomers,

9:35

not just because she is named after the

9:37

Moon due to being raised

9:39

by astronomers, but because she

9:42

was actually one of the most resistant to

9:44

doing this interview, not because

9:46

she wasn't interested but because she thought

9:48

she wasn't interesting enough to

9:50

warrant a chat. But upon further

9:52

questioning, it became clear that she was

9:55

an outlier not only in Cassadega,

9:58

but in her generation in the United

10:00

States, because she was actually

10:02

raised as a staunch atheist.

10:05

In the majority of these stories, we

10:07

see the example of American women

10:09

being raised in a religious household

10:12

for a traditionally religious area.

10:15

Deb got deep into the Evangelical

10:17

Church in Kentucky as a young adult, where

10:20

she stayed deeply involved for about fifteen

10:23

years. Laurie left Methodism

10:25

as a teenager. Jamie remained

10:27

involved in the Southern Baptist Church until

10:29

about ten. But

10:32

Selena was raised by atheist

10:34

scientists. But even in

10:36

this atheist household, there

10:38

were strong fundamental elements

10:41

to how she grew up. And she had already

10:43

decided at that point, by

10:46

like twelve, aged twelve, that there

10:48

was definitely no such thing

10:50

as heaven and there was no such thing

10:52

as hell, because astronomy

10:55

proved there was no heaven and geology

10:57

proved there was no hell. And that's what

10:59

she ended up I mean, was a lunar geologist.

11:02

Shot was that he became what I call it

11:04

fundamentalist atheist, and

11:07

my mom had returned to atheist

11:09

at age twelve. My dad um

11:12

as she was a fairly lass

11:14

affair atheist, like she

11:17

ended up getting married in the church because

11:19

she didn't want to hurt her parents feelings. And

11:22

she never was someone who

11:24

went on about it unless she was

11:26

questioned or asked by somebody else first. But

11:28

my dad became a really um

11:31

gung ho atheist, proselytizing

11:34

type of atheists, and um

11:37

he and my mom when

11:39

they had my sister and I, he became

11:42

very afraid that, you know, we

11:44

were going to be tainted by religions. This

11:46

is absolutely fascinating to me because

11:48

growing up aggressively without faith

11:51

made her kind of naturally curious.

11:54

And in the case of the three others, their

11:56

interest in communicating with spirit was

11:58

generally dismissed or discouraged

12:00

by their families, even if,

12:03

as Jamie described, there was some precedent

12:05

for mediumship within their own families.

12:08

Here are the ladies of Cassadega describing

12:11

some of their early experiences

12:13

with the other side. So what

12:16

I can remember is it

12:18

wouldn't be anything for my grandmother

12:20

to walk out of the building and say

12:22

to me, did you see the little girl in the corner?

12:25

Yes, Grandma, Okay,

12:29

you're not crazy. Or

12:31

like the night my great uncle passed my

12:34

I I sleep with a box fan,

12:37

and in the middle of the night, around two o'clock in the morning,

12:39

the box fan stopped running. As

12:41

I come to know and understand

12:44

a little bit more about myself, I

12:46

decided that there was

12:49

something a lot more than

12:51

what I realized, and that

12:54

there were things that you know, would

12:56

trend, like certain things that would happen, you

12:58

know, throughout my life led me to

13:01

believe that there were maybe gifts

13:03

and maybe we could call that some sense

13:05

of intuition, right. What's

13:08

really interesting is I realized

13:10

that I told my mom and dad at one point

13:13

that I saw a spirit in my

13:15

room, and nobody believed me. And

13:18

then when I got to college, I thought,

13:20

you know, I'd really like to learn about religion

13:23

because I just, you know, the only thing I

13:25

really know about religion was the dentist

13:28

office had a series of kids,

13:30

you know, level books about the

13:33

first books of the Bible. And so

13:35

these early experiences generally

13:37

fell between the late seventies

13:40

and the early eighties, a

13:42

time where women of the boomer generation,

13:45

The majority of Cassadaga's mediums

13:48

were coming of age. I could

13:50

and have gone on about this for quite a long

13:52

time, but the boomer generation was

13:54

a very tricky time for women.

13:56

There was a lot of push and pull between

13:58

traditional values and an increased

14:01

push towards individualism

14:03

and encouragement for many to see themselves

14:05

as someone who created their own

14:07

sense of self and worth and

14:10

consumption. Unlike many

14:12

of their mothers. The majority of Cassadeca

14:14

mediums had careers and were associated

14:17

with traditional religions before making

14:19

the move towards spiritualism.

14:21

Deb had her own career as an I T specialist.

14:24

Lori was a dining room manager

14:26

and a reporter. Selena worked

14:29

at Borders Bookstore forever, and

14:31

Jamie owned two sewing stores in central

14:33

Florida. But something happens

14:36

in their lives. There is a crisis

14:38

of faith or in Selena's

14:40

case, lack of faith, and after these

14:43

formative experiences with spirit,

14:45

they begin to be drawn to more and more

14:47

spiritual ideas, a road

14:50

that in this region inevitably

14:52

leads to Cassadeca. I

14:54

want to turn us down a quick side alley here.

14:57

I do feel compelled to say that these women

14:59

were coming up at a gang buster's

15:02

time for ghostie media

15:04

in the US, so as I said,

15:06

most were coming of age in the nineteen seventies

15:08

and eighties, and this was a time where

15:10

communication with spirit was very

15:13

commonly shown in the media, whether

15:15

as an interesting novelty

15:18

or as a scary demonic event.

15:20

I think the horror movies that were based on

15:22

quote unquote true stories. The

15:25

Amityville Horror came out in nine seven,

15:28

the Exorcist had come out a few years before,

15:30

Poltergeist, and The Shining came out a few

15:32

years after, all of which have

15:35

nothing to do with spiritualism the religion,

15:38

but we're huge American pop culture

15:40

touchstones, ones that alternatively

15:43

fueled moral panics with fundamentalists

15:45

and fueled interest in the afterlife

15:48

in the Curious, and are all certainly

15:50

ones that boomers would have been

15:52

well associated with. There's

15:54

plenty of examples of ghost media leaking

15:57

into the interests of the real world for

16:00

ahaps, most popularly through the paranormal

16:02

investigations of Ed and Lorraine

16:05

Warren, the couple who are fictionalized

16:07

in the Conjuring movies. They spent

16:10

the majority of the seventies and eighties

16:12

investigating cases in America

16:14

and England with families who

16:16

reported possessions of evil

16:18

spirit. The ghosts of this time

16:20

have unfinished business and

16:22

can often be malevolent. They

16:25

terrorize, and they are generally

16:27

only brought at bay

16:29

by something vaguely Christian.

16:32

A little more to the point than these movies,

16:34

spiritualist adjacent ideas were

16:36

also popularized through a series

16:38

of well received channeled

16:41

books. That is, a book

16:43

where a spirit communicates

16:45

through a medium. The medium writes

16:48

the messages received down, and they

16:50

published the book crediting the spirit.

16:53

Although I'm assuming that the spirit

16:55

does not receive a percentage.

16:57

Please contact me if that's not correct.

17:00

These books could be so influential that

17:02

you can in fact directly trace

17:05

the Cassadega bookstore manager is

17:07

Selena's journey right back to

17:09

a series of channeled books that were

17:11

popular between the nineteen fifties

17:13

and seventies. Selena told me that

17:16

some of her interests in the supernatural originally

17:18

came up after she'd begun taking religious

17:21

history courses in college and found

17:23

an old copy of a popular book called

17:25

The Search for Bridie Murphy, one

17:28

of those true stories in which

17:30

a Colorado housewife named Virginia.

17:33

Tige was put under hypnosis

17:35

by an amateur hypnotist named

17:37

Maury Bernstein and ended

17:39

up channeling a nineteenth century

17:42

Irish woman named Bridie Murphy

17:44

with what was said to be extreme

17:46

precision. Upon some investigation,

17:49

much of what was channeled couldn't be verified

17:52

as a person who had ever existed.

17:55

The prominent theory today is that Tige experienced

17:58

something called kryptom nies, you a

18:00

proposed memory bias that occurs

18:03

where a forgotten memory returns

18:06

without the person realizing that

18:08

that's what it is. The term

18:10

actually first came into play in the late eighteen

18:13

hundreds as a way of understanding

18:15

the mediumship of a very famous

18:17

Swedish medium named Helena Smith.

18:20

Regardless of whether you think it's true

18:22

or not, the search for Bridie Murphy

18:24

caused a huge praise in the

18:27

US in the nineteen fifties, and

18:29

twenty years later put Selena

18:31

on the road to spiritualism.

18:33

It's not a spiritualist text itself,

18:36

but it was another hiccup

18:38

in the public's interest in speaking with the

18:40

dead, and Selena told me explicitly

18:43

that it had a huge influence on her.

18:45

Another book that Peter Interest was something

18:48

called Seth Speaks, another

18:50

popular channel material book

18:52

from ninety two. This

18:55

was one of many that science fiction writer

18:57

Jane Roberts dictated to her husband

18:59

between in the nineteen sixties and her death in

19:01

the eighties. She was said to have channeled

19:04

a spirit named simply Seth,

19:06

who advised her on concepts like the

19:09

point of power, you know, that

19:11

billion dollar piece of advice people have

19:13

been selling for thousands of years,

19:15

the power of the present moment, et

19:18

cetera. Selina was inspired

19:20

by all of this, partially because

19:22

she was kept away from ideas like this

19:24

her entire life. I just pretty

19:27

much read every book on

19:29

reincarnation that there was, and in

19:31

the small, very small

19:34

what they called occult and metaphysical

19:36

section, and the

19:39

more I read, the more I just got I

19:41

mean, they were all most of them were by

19:43

people who were science oriented

19:46

or skeptical, and I

19:48

was raised to be skeptical, and

19:52

I, you know, I just kept read. The more I

19:54

read, the more I you know, I got

19:56

convinced that there was, you know, something

19:58

else out there. So while ghost

20:01

media was very prominent, ghost

20:03

churchy media wasn't

20:05

as much. So yes, interest

20:08

in the afterlife, in the positive

20:10

and the negative was everywhere

20:12

in pop culture as these

20:14

mediums came of age, but it took

20:17

all four well into adulthood to

20:19

begin meaningfully exploring spiritualism,

20:22

and they would often do so in secret.

20:25

Deb told me that she would go to meditation

20:27

circles between evangelical

20:29

church sessions. Jamie read

20:31

tarot cards and went through a wickaphase

20:34

in her twenties while still singing

20:36

in the Baptist choir. Salnah

20:38

read her metaphysical books on the clock,

20:41

and Laurie and her young daughter, who

20:43

now also practices in Cassadega

20:46

alongside her mom, would talk

20:48

about their experiences with spirit

20:50

when she was very young. In every

20:52

case, these long standing interests

20:55

eventually turned into a

20:57

change in their faith. At

20:59

some point the secret life of dabbling

21:02

in the spiritual wasn't cutting it anymore,

21:05

and so they make their first

21:07

trips to Cassadega. And

21:10

so after I went to several people, they said,

21:12

well, you know, you're probably gonna have to go to Cassadega

21:15

because that's where people you know who

21:17

are you know, your typical medium, sty

21:19

kicks, healers. You know, that's where you're going

21:21

to find the people that you're going to resonate with

21:24

when you drive by it. It's almost like

21:26

if you close your eyes, you're gonna miss it. And

21:29

it's so cute too, because at first

21:31

in class, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm just a psychic

21:34

and she's like, not sorry, you're a medium.

21:36

And you know, my eyes had to work really hard

21:39

for everything that I got, had to study hard,

21:41

had to work hard all that, And

21:44

then I heard about Cassadega. Um

21:46

this is city in central Florida,

21:49

and you know, I thought, well, I've got to go

21:51

visit this place. It's

21:53

kind of fun to hear about everyone's first

21:55

experiences in Cassadega as

21:58

newcomers, because they're

22:00

so intimidating to me now. But

22:02

there was a time where they didn't know who

22:05

was a certified medium and who was an

22:07

independent operator. They had mixed

22:09

experiences on their first readings.

22:12

They weren't totally sure how to feel about

22:14

it all. Hopefully like me, they

22:16

were also baffled by the lack of snacks

22:18

in the area. Quick sweet sidebar

22:21

about deb Her entry to Cassadega

22:24

could not have been cuter. It just

22:26

so happens that Cassadega wasn't

22:28

the only place that debb found

22:30

religious peace and self acceptance. It

22:32

was also where she found love.

22:36

I arrived in town and I said, geez, this, you

22:38

know, I felt like I was at home. I had a reading

22:40

across the street because I knew absolutely

22:43

nothing about the camp or anything

22:45

that they were actually doing. It

22:48

was kind of ironic because I told

22:50

him, I said, you know, hey, I think I'm gonna have a reading. So I

22:52

went over and I sat down and

22:55

waited for my time. So when

22:57

my time came out, wentever, and you know

22:59

it's Atlanta, said hey, I'm about five

23:01

minutes past. Isn't time for

23:04

my reading? And so she

23:06

pulls back the curtain and she says, oh,

23:08

he has somebody in his chair. He's obviously

23:11

taking somebody else's client. So

23:13

anyway, this guy across the room

23:15

hollered over and said, hey, you

23:17

know, if she's okay, I'll do a reading for

23:19

her. So I took him up on it, and

23:21

I said, you know, whatever, you know, it doesn't matter

23:24

to me. And so I went over and I

23:26

sat down, I had a reading. And

23:28

so that person ended up becoming

23:30

my significant other for

23:32

the last sixteen years i've

23:36

met him. He's wonderful. So

23:39

yeah, I knew that you had met him. Um,

23:41

so anyways, that's how we met. I'm

23:44

sorry. That is so nice. I don't

23:46

care if you believe in ghosts or not.

23:49

That is very cute. Like spoiler

23:52

alert, I do meet her boyfriend later love

23:54

in a ghost place. I'm swooning. That's

23:57

adorable. That's so nice.

23:59

It's kind have been an interesting journey.

24:01

But to be honest, you know,

24:04

at that moment, I really

24:06

didn't truly understand what

24:08

spiritualism was. You know,

24:10

my journey at that point was more about

24:13

really my own personal gifts, my

24:15

my own personal healing, and my

24:17

Christianity and my personal emboldment.

24:20

So anyway, I started exploring, you know, what's

24:23

this thing called spiritualism? You know,

24:25

is it? You know, is this a good thing?

24:27

Or is this a bad thing? And

24:37

once someone is sold on spiritual

24:40

so really sold. Not the

24:42

frequently cited examples of someone

24:45

coming to the spiritualist church while going

24:47

through a difficult time, often after

24:50

a loss, then moving on

24:52

never to be heard from again. I'm

24:54

talking about getting into it, wanting

24:57

to take classes, volunteer, and

25:00

it on the road to becoming a medium themselves.

25:03

While Salina was never a student, herself.

25:05

She returned often and eventually

25:07

interviewed with the board when

25:09

they needed a new bookstore manager. Jamie

25:12

got her job as activities coordinator

25:15

after being an enthusiastic volunteer

25:17

and taking classes. She tells

25:20

me that she was already used to the service

25:22

and volunteering aspect that she'd spent

25:24

her whole life as a Baptist perfecting.

25:27

Dad became more interested in mediumship

25:29

through taking classes and possibly

25:32

her new boyfriend. And Lorie has a

25:34

really sweet intergenerational story

25:36

about she and her daughter beginning

25:39

to train together. And the

25:41

training and education is

25:43

important because, as Cassadega

25:45

mediums are quick to remind you, they

25:48

are not the card readers charging a

25:50

hundred bucks an hour that work around

25:52

the sanctioned campgrounds that they

25:54

do a true Cassadega

25:57

medium or healer as it were. But

25:59

as a tourists, it's virtually impossible

26:02

to know who has taken the multiple years

26:04

of classes required to be recognized

26:07

by the camp association and

26:09

which is the card reader, dealer

26:12

or medium who isn't a formal

26:14

member. For your reference, those

26:16

tarot readers at the hotel not

26:19

Cassadega mediums, those

26:21

readers across the street who do their readings

26:23

behind curtains in the middle of the store,

26:26

not Cassadega mediums. And

26:28

while Cassadega mediums proper don't

26:31

shade them directly, they

26:33

are very careful and very proud of

26:35

their specific training, training

26:37

that doesn't cost a ton of money

26:40

but does cost a lot of time

26:42

and commitment, not the weekend

26:44

Reiky certifications or Tarot

26:46

reading certificates that are more easily

26:49

gotten no matter your skill level. I'll

26:52

let deb explain the difference. They have not

26:54

gone through the ricor or the you

26:56

know, the classes, the workingman's

26:58

public, you know, going through you know the

27:00

curriculum and all that. Um. Now, that's

27:02

not saying that they're not gifted. It just

27:04

means that, you know that they're independent

27:07

people that gravitated to

27:09

the hotel to be able to leverage their gifts.

27:12

Is the people you know that are operating out of the shops

27:14

over there basically doing their own thing, so

27:17

they don't have the same governments and

27:20

rules and regulations and by

27:22

laws and policies and things

27:24

like that that we do inside the camp. We

27:26

actually run you know, a pretty um

27:29

type ship. UM as it relates to

27:31

cast the biggest spiritualist camp, you

27:33

know, and the people that do come there to

27:36

to do work and to go through the student

27:38

program, we like to make sure you know that

27:41

they have, you know, participated

27:43

in in the curriculum and you

27:45

know, had the opportunity to be

27:47

able to leverage and prove their gifts. It

27:50

takes three to four years to become a certified

27:52

medium or healer, and

27:55

to to four more years to become an

27:58

ordained minister. Certification

28:01

and I don't know if you know this or not, but

28:03

certification includes curriculum

28:07

and doing hands on demonstration,

28:09

public demonstrations with spirit

28:12

greetings one to three minutes, fifteen

28:15

minute readings, finding message

28:17

services. My first

28:19

message service that I did as

28:22

a certified medium, there were fifty

28:24

people there. CASS today is like a little

28:26

in university. So for instance,

28:29

you'll start at a level one and go through level

28:31

four to become certified. And

28:34

so there's curriculum and UH

28:36

and experiential that

28:38

basically every student has to experience

28:41

and go through. I took classes

28:43

with Joan, I took classes with Dr

28:46

t Dr Thomas. Dr

28:48

Thomas was probably the one that I

28:50

centered around most in

28:52

the beginning. UM I would go to their seances.

28:56

My husband, out in front of my

28:58

face, was very supportive of it us, you

29:00

know, would say go to Cassadega because I know it

29:02

relaxes you, you know. But behind my back

29:04

he was chewing me a part. But yeah,

29:08

I dove in at first. It's

29:11

a very specific process. Speaking

29:13

to my own experience, I had

29:15

good experiences with Cassadega

29:18

mediums and with readers of the

29:20

camp who were not certified by the

29:22

Cassadega Spiritualist Camp. So

29:24

while I respect what the Cassadega mediums did

29:26

for their education, it's just like

29:29

the real world. It doesn't matter what school

29:31

you into, it matters what your passion

29:33

and skill level is. But for this

29:35

group of women, by the time they're

29:38

really in, they've already

29:40

been in the Cassadega community a

29:42

minimum of once or twice a week for

29:44

about four years or more, and

29:47

many end up moving to the camp and buying

29:49

homes after becoming official members.

29:53

That is to say, once you're a medium,

29:55

you can't really keep it from the people in

29:57

your life who would disapprove you.

30:00

Gotta come clean, and you can often

30:02

feel that in the stories of people who

30:04

come to spiritualism in many

30:06

cases them, discussing

30:08

their faith often comes at

30:10

the cost of relationships with family,

30:13

with friends, and with members

30:15

of their former religion. And I want

30:17

to be clear, this is not at the

30:19

insistence of the spiritualist religion.

30:22

This isn't scientology demanding

30:24

that you disconnect from nonbelievers.

30:27

This is strictly based on how the beliefs

30:29

of spiritualism, the ideas of

30:32

continuous life chafe

30:34

with other religions and with the women

30:36

I spoke with, the range of reactions

30:38

differed. For some it was nothing

30:41

more than a little curiosity and

30:43

confusion from family and friends.

30:45

Now, one time, my daughter and I we went up

30:48

for a vacation to visit, Oh what do

30:50

you do now, Oh, I'm a certain find medium

30:52

or blah blah blah. And I think

30:54

more than anything, people are kind of fascinated

30:57

with that. But other times getting

30:59

involved in ritualism gets much more

31:01

complicated than that. In a follow

31:03

up interview, Selena told me about

31:05

her mother, the astronomer Winnifred

31:08

Cameron, who was amazing

31:10

by the way she was like this famous lunar

31:13

expert at NASA in the nineteen fifties

31:15

at a time where not many women

31:17

were working at NASA. She was

31:19

an adviser on the Apollo moon landings.

31:22

She was just an incredible person,

31:25

and she married Selena's fundamentalist,

31:27

atheist astronomer dad, Robert

31:30

Cameron, who named a whole planet

31:32

after her. Winnifred Cameron

31:34

passed in and

31:37

Selena described to me a number

31:39

of difficult conversations she had

31:41

with her mother towards the end of

31:43

her life. Though they always

31:46

remained close, Selena was

31:48

unable to convince her pragmatic scientist

31:51

mom that there was any possibility

31:53

of life after death, and that was really

31:56

difficult for her. Jamie

31:58

told me about how her relation and ship

32:00

with spiritualism altered her relationship

32:03

with her family. They knew that I read

32:05

tarot in my family,

32:07

but when I got there, there

32:09

was a concern amongst the family. I

32:12

was in my elements. I was happy.

32:14

I was this is the greatest crop

32:16

ever. You know. I can embrace

32:19

this, I can learn it. Oh my god, I have these gifts

32:21

I can heal. Are you kidding me? You

32:23

know? I've always been this way. This, there's

32:25

a name to this, you know, it's

32:27

just like all of this and

32:30

so um. I remember

32:32

the first Easter, my mom calling

32:34

me and saying to me, so, how are

32:36

you going to do Easter? How that you're a spiritualist?

32:39

What do you mean how am I gonna do Easter?

32:42

Don't you feel like you will be a hypocrite

32:44

if you come to the family for Easter. So

32:47

we'll thank you for saving me that three hour drive.

32:49

And I haven't been to an Easter since.

32:53

As a matter of fact, she said to me this past

32:55

you know, we're having the search of brothers and if you would like

32:57

to make an appearance, And I said, need I remind you what you

32:59

said to me when I first entered spiritalism.

33:02

Now you don't need to remind me. Okay, I

33:04

won't be there. I lost

33:07

really what I thought were best friends from

33:09

the Baptist Church when I told them

33:11

that I was I was a medium and

33:13

I had been all my life and I

33:16

was going to that And you know in

33:18

Christianity that will shout

33:20

not judge lest you be judged yourself. But

33:23

the Christians are the first freaking ones

33:25

to hit that judgment, you know, not all

33:27

the majority of them. And that's

33:29

what happened. I lost really good friends, and

33:31

my family did not understand um

33:35

and so um. They don't resonate

33:37

with it. Actually they don't. You

33:40

know, there's a certain level of skepticism

33:42

that, you know, their belief system

33:45

that someone could actually

33:47

communicate with spirit and

33:50

and and I think that's you know, that

33:52

was something for me that

33:55

that has been a little bit of a challenge because

33:59

um, and you know, it's

34:01

a little hurtful sometimes, you

34:03

know that people would you know that people are not

34:06

you know that they don't that don't believe you

34:08

know that, um, that you

34:10

have the ability to be able to work with spirit

34:12

or communicate with spirit, and and so

34:15

um, I think that was something that was probably

34:19

somewhat somewhat hurtful, But

34:21

in spite of these personal challenges,

34:24

they stuck with it. And the people

34:26

I spoke with in Cassadega were very

34:28

proud of their religion and no matter

34:30

what their background was, of Spiritualism's

34:33

ability to be pretty inclusive

34:36

of many different religions and ideas.

34:39

Underselling as Supervision, the bookstore

34:41

has included more and more New

34:43

Age and Eastern religious ideas as

34:45

the demand for it increased from the public,

34:48

and while this accessibility hasn't

34:51

seemed to do much in the way of diversifying

34:54

Cassadega. All of the women

34:56

who spoke to me for these interviews were

34:58

white, and that has a lot to do with the fact

35:01

that there's only a handful of mediums

35:03

at the camp who aren't white. We're

35:05

going to get into the reasons that this may be

35:07

in the second half of our season, because

35:10

spiritualist ideas have a wide

35:12

global appeal across race, gender,

35:15

and age lines. At present,

35:17

American spiritualism appears to be

35:19

at this midpoint, they

35:22

still primarily work with former

35:24

Christians who are layering spiritualist

35:26

ideas onto the flavor

35:29

of Christianity they grew up in. But

35:31

it's not a must. I'll

35:34

let the ladies explain from a spiritualist

35:36

perspective, we don't necessarily get

35:39

caught up in the dogma. And so, you

35:41

know, if you come, you know, if you were to gravitate

35:43

to spiritualism as a Christian

35:46

or let's just say, even even

35:48

as a Hindu or

35:51

um, you know, Islam or whatever the

35:53

case may be, UM, there's

35:56

going to be a certain

35:58

level of um a acceptance,

36:01

but also there's gonna be

36:03

a certain level of um

36:06

understanding that

36:09

I think every single individual is going to resonate

36:11

with because it

36:13

is about the higher self

36:16

and uh, the spiritual.

36:18

You know, your own personal spirituality

36:21

and your own personal connection

36:24

with with God or infinite

36:27

intelligence or your higher power, So

36:30

we don't necessarily try

36:32

to control or dictate your

36:34

personal journey or your

36:36

personal path based on some

36:39

religious dogma. You have your poor

36:41

beliefs, Like I was raised in the church, and

36:44

I decided in the church what I'm going to

36:46

keep and what I'm going to give away. You know, I'm going

36:48

to keep that Jesus was a healer

36:50

and the prophet, and I'm going to give away the people's savior.

36:53

I'm not going to keep that. So it's kind

36:55

of like, you have your poor beliefs, and then spiritualism

36:57

comes along as an add on. They're very

36:59

proud of the spiritualist community,

37:01

but it is a community, and

37:04

communities have their problems

37:06

and drama and in fighting. And

37:08

I was very curious what it's

37:10

like working in a community where everyone

37:13

feels connected to spirit and

37:15

therefore maybe have some strong

37:17

opinions about things that they're

37:19

divinely correct about, which

37:21

is my way of saying. I love gossip, and I

37:24

love gossiping, and deb was game,

37:26

so read between the lines here. I

37:29

was curious. Yeah,

37:31

if you would speak to that a little bit of what

37:33

the community of mediums and healers

37:35

and students is like and what it's like

37:37

to be a part of that community. Will

37:40

it could be good and bad?

37:43

Um so, but

37:46

um so, I think the probably

37:48

the maybe the biggest challenge because

37:51

you know, oftentimes those of us who are

37:53

mediums, mediums were in

37:56

paths, right, and so that means the

37:58

ultra sensitive. We can sit

38:00

down next to somebody and you

38:02

know, because it's like, you know, we're

38:05

so attuned, we can pick up information

38:07

about that individual. So um, it's

38:09

not like you're reading somebody's mind,

38:12

but you can tell, you

38:14

know, you can see a lot in their vibration

38:16

and you can pick a lot of things up just

38:18

by being around them in their energy right.

38:21

And so sometimes you know, it

38:23

gets a little bit um, you know,

38:26

we get a little sensitive. Let's put it

38:28

that away. So um, I

38:30

think that on great days,

38:32

we we probably can say we

38:34

all love each other, and on

38:37

some not so great days, we probably

38:39

say, jeez, we've got to get the heck out

38:41

of this place, because

38:46

we're all going, we're we're we're

38:49

battling with each other you

38:52

know, so it's

38:54

not any different than any other great

38:56

family because we all live in the same

38:58

community and we all

39:00

know each other, you know, we all

39:03

have that you know, share similar

39:05

you know, very similar

39:07

kinds of experiences and go

39:10

to church together and sometimes

39:12

each account of her so um,

39:14

I would say, you know, sometimes that's a bit of

39:17

a challenge. But but I think a lot

39:19

of it has to do with the fact that we're just

39:21

ultra sensitive, fable, right. And

39:23

as for their views on what the future

39:26

of spiritualism is, the

39:28

mediums at Cassadega have wildly

39:30

different perspectives. While I'm

39:32

visiting, I hear that some members of the

39:35

camp are in fear of the religion

39:37

not making it due to how time

39:39

intensive their training is. The

39:41

mediums who are trained not being

39:43

able to meet increased public demand,

39:46

the anxiety that comes with increased

39:49

gentrification slowly closing

39:51

in on their area. One

39:53

camp medium who didn't want to be identified by

39:55

name, indicated that a lot of people seem

39:57

to be moving to Central Florida because

40:00

of their low COVID mask restrictions,

40:03

and if you're familiar with the governor

40:05

of Florida, that's no surprise.

40:08

And others are much more optimistic,

40:11

feeling that things will work out. Jamie

40:14

is the activities director and along

40:16

with Selena, works directly

40:18

with mediums as well as

40:20

with the public. So I was interested

40:22

in what she thought. You know, spiritualist

40:24

camps are closing at an alarming rate. But

40:28

I think one of our saving races

40:30

is that we're year round. But you know, if

40:32

you look at the history of the camp, and

40:34

I've done a lot of research on it, it's

40:36

it always has Just like anything,

40:39

there's an ebb and flow. You know, you have your

40:41

bad times, and you have your good times,

40:43

you have your you know, your crap,

40:45

and then you don't have your crap, and it's

40:48

just histories just keeps rebeating itself. So

40:51

I think that there's a fear among a lot

40:53

of the camp members that the that

40:55

the camp isn't going to survive much longer.

40:58

I don't understand what they're basing that at all. You

41:00

know, there you can

41:03

research religion after religion after religion

41:05

that died off because they weren't bringing younger people

41:07

in, you know, and

41:09

so that's been a bit of a struggle because

41:12

you have the two sides of defenses there. I'm

41:14

trying to bring in younger people, and then

41:16

you've got other people that are complaining about them, you

41:19

know, and and it's just like you got

41:21

to open your eyes and you

41:23

know, this has to be

41:25

done because the training

41:27

process is so rigorous and take such

41:29

a long time that they're like, well, the people who get

41:32

through the program can be really

41:34

overworked because it's it's such a road

41:36

to to get there, you know, it

41:38

is. And then you know, we're we're lacking

41:40

on mediums. We don't have as

41:42

many parts the meanings as we did before

41:45

COVID, you know, and because

41:48

of that, we don't have you

41:50

know, we lost a lot of members last year the

41:52

transition the student program.

41:54

I think we have three students, that's

41:56

say. Selena remains pretty

41:58

positive on this issue. She says that

42:01

she's noticed and increased receptiveness

42:03

not just in the tourists visiting,

42:06

but in their surrounding community in

42:08

Florida. Well, the thing that has

42:10

changed over time the most isn't so

42:12

much what they're interested in

42:14

reading as the

42:17

the zeitgeist of the outside world.

42:19

When I first got here, there were the

42:21

people that picketed, you know, in front

42:23

in front of the bookstore that we were satan and

42:26

and they would come into the store

42:29

and and pray for us, um

42:32

stuff like that. And that has

42:35

really ratcheted down

42:38

and now it is so

42:40

much more of a mainstream

42:43

thing to be um

42:45

interested in in in what cassidy

42:48

has to offer. And there

42:50

are so many people who you

42:52

know, had to deal with isolation

42:56

for you know, some

42:59

amount of time in some cases years,

43:02

and they had they all of a sudden

43:04

had enough time to do things

43:06

that they never had time to do before. Read

43:09

more and meditate maybe for

43:12

you know, I finally felt like they had time to meditate

43:14

and um just investigate

43:17

things that they had wanted, you know,

43:19

had had interest in but never had time. So

43:21

all of that plus all of the people

43:24

who died of covid um,

43:27

you know, that was a large amount of people

43:30

dying all at the same time. There

43:32

are plenty of through lines and patterns

43:35

present and why people are drawn to spiritualism,

43:38

but for visitors and mediums alike,

43:41

the core reasons tend to be pretty

43:43

personal. Deb shared this with

43:45

me on how her mediumship has helped

43:47

her through. One last thing I

43:49

will share is that

43:52

in actually UM

43:55

I lost my grandson who had just turned

43:57

running for in a car accident, and

44:00

and so um I had actually raised

44:03

him from the time he

44:05

was born until he was about seven

44:08

and until and and so then

44:10

he went off to live with his mother. But so

44:13

I think that if

44:16

I were not able to

44:18

use my gifts to be able to be open

44:21

to the possibility of

44:24

of sensing that vibration

44:27

and and feeling his presence,

44:30

that it would have been very difficult for me,

44:32

as as I'm going to say, as a parent, to

44:35

be able to get through the loss of a child. And

44:38

um really trying to understand. You

44:41

know, oftentimes when we lose those

44:43

that are closest to us, um

44:45

and God forbid, you know, those of

44:48

us who lose child, you know, we

44:50

started a question, you know, why would

44:52

why would it happen? Or how could God

44:54

allow something like that to happen? And

44:57

I mean, I think it's a natural process,

45:00

you know, for people

45:02

to go through, uh,

45:05

you know, when they lose people that

45:07

are so close to them. And

45:09

so I think my belief in my understanding

45:11

and spiritualism and my ability to be

45:13

able to connect with them and understand

45:17

you know, Him in his journey

45:21

gave me the opportunity,

45:23

the ability, I should say,

45:25

um to be able to look

45:28

at that tragedy as

45:31

uh in a little bit of a different perspective.

45:34

Like any religion, at least a part

45:36

of the appeal is its ability to

45:38

bring peace. So

45:41

sure, the finances are unclear,

45:44

the nature of mediumship itself

45:46

is changing. Cassadega is

45:48

struggling to recruit, but interest

45:51

in spiritualism is at an all time

45:53

high. It's kind of all over the

45:55

place. My favorite reaction is from

45:57

Laurie because it's actually the same one

45:59

that I get from one of these senior pastors

46:01

at the first Spiritualist church in Brockton,

46:04

Massachusetts. Go Boxers. What

46:06

she says when asked what would happen if

46:09

the dwindling church didn't bring in

46:11

new members soon, and she

46:13

just sort of says, leave it to spirit

46:16

I'm gonna say, I just see it continuing

46:19

on as it always says, and

46:21

of course eventually things of all

46:24

and so how they ate, Bob, I really

46:26

don't know. I mean, it's

46:29

not like people are going to stop dying anytime

46:31

soon. I

46:42

think Jamie kind of summed it up best here.

46:45

Yes, Spiritualism is founded

46:47

on the continuity of life and

46:49

on very particular beliefs

46:52

but it's like I tell people, when

46:54

you pick religions apart

46:57

of them, we're all trying to attempt

47:00

the same damn thing. We're

47:02

just a different highways, calling it different

47:04

things, looking at different

47:06

views, but we're all trying to get to that same

47:08

boy. And that's

47:11

the first half of Ghost Church, and the second

47:13

part of this series we'll see what became

47:15

of the Fox Sisters and how the world

47:17

took what they innovated and brought

47:19

it into the present, as well as

47:22

all of the complications that come with

47:24

becoming a religion in America.

47:27

It's funny because throughout this series,

47:29

I do these gut checks

47:31

every once in a while, sometimes very

47:33

close together, because when you make a show

47:36

about religion, it's kind of this

47:38

catch twenty two, right, Like you're never going to be

47:40

skeptical enough for the skeptics, You're

47:42

never going to be respectful enough

47:45

for the devout. And I know that

47:47

I'm never going to speak broadly

47:49

enough or speak slowly enough

47:52

to make a successful could podcast.

47:55

Okay, you know, like this guy went

47:57

to college with not that he remembers

48:00

or so that we went to college together. He

48:02

emailed me to say that he listened

48:05

to the trailer of Ghost Church,

48:07

and did I want to develop a docuseries

48:10

in the quote unquote cult space

48:13

dark. It's really hot right now,

48:16

and it's like, yeah, sure, while I'm at

48:18

it, I'll make a limited series about a

48:20

recently disgraced white millionaire

48:22

and cast a movie star in it. Right

48:24

after I develop a god awful

48:27

Hulu original about a famous

48:29

suburban murder that people say

48:32

really makes you think about the times

48:34

we live in? But does it actually?

48:37

And why are the scene split so dark?

48:39

You know? I just but

48:41

that's not why I'm making this show, and

48:43

I hope that's not why you're listening to this show.

48:46

I don't like to make stuff about things I've completely

48:48

made my mind up about. You know, leave

48:51

that to the dorks who like very clear

48:53

cut heroes and villains. And

48:55

that's fine, But I feel compelled to tell

48:57

you as far as it goes with spiritualism

49:01

and spiritualist traditions, I'm

49:03

not out at all. Even

49:06

with a history of known fraud in

49:08

the case of some spiritualists. I

49:11

don't think that that discounts an entire

49:13

religion or belief system.

49:15

But I do think that that fraud

49:17

should be recognized and dealt

49:20

with. I think the uglier parts

49:22

of a religion should be acknowledged

49:24

and dealt with. I don't think that I necessarily

49:27

hold the faith of the spiritualists,

49:29

but I do hold the faith that belief

49:31

can be a tether to reality

49:34

or a complete severance from it. And

49:36

it's been both for me at different points.

49:39

It's been both. And yes, in

49:41

case you're wondering, I am still

49:44

waiting for that guide in a cape

49:46

to show up and tell me what their name

49:49

is. We'll be back in a couple of weeks.

49:51

Oh wait, Actually, two little

49:53

bonus interactions. Here

49:55

is a medium trying to remember

49:58

the word emo. And I

50:00

think what hasn't helped either is with

50:02

the onset of like we on

50:05

the onset with the popularity of WICCA the

50:08

emoji, not the emoji.

50:10

That's when I'm talking. What is that group of people

50:12

that it is like all about emotions. You

50:14

have brunched people, and then you have another group

50:16

of people, Oh email, like the email.

50:19

Yeah, I do have another one. Here's

50:21

a medium trying to remember who Bernie

50:23

mac is. Well, I wish I could think

50:26

of who the guy was. Oh

50:28

look, yeah, let me know if you remember. Yeah,

50:30

And now what was he in the movie

50:33

where um Ashton

50:35

Pucher was marrying

50:38

his daughter something Bernie

50:42

Mac oh, yeah,

50:45

you know, And I didn't have to

50:47

stop it up. It came to me. Bernie

50:51

mac came through. H

50:53

yeah, yeah, goodbye, see you next time.

51:00

The A

51:08

one word heres