0:00

So I was looking through wiki leaks the

0:02

other day as one does rate. And

0:04

I came across something that I found

0:06

rather fascinating. There's a thing that the

0:09

Cia, a developer called Weeping Angel. So.

0:11

If you have a Samsung Smart Tv,

0:14

there's a really odd feature in it's

0:16

called fake off. And. When the

0:18

Tv as on, you can push mute

0:20

one eight to ten power and the

0:23

Tv appears to turn off, but it

0:25

doesn't. Now. The smart Tvs often

0:27

have a microphone Belgians you can give

0:29

them voice commands and when the Tv

0:31

is off the mike isn't listening but

0:33

when the T V is in fake

0:35

off the mike is still active. So

0:38

at the Cia I did was they

0:40

develop some kind of spyware for the

0:42

Samsung Smart Tv or it would record

0:44

the audio from the make and store

0:46

it on the Tv. So. I

0:48

imagine a scenario is that a Cia

0:50

agent would wanna play a listening device

0:52

and someone's bedroom and goes in but

0:55

then sees oh they've gotta Samsung Smart

0:57

Tv which is already a listening device.

0:59

No need to leave behind a bug

1:01

that might get discovered. Let's just live

1:03

off the land has they say? So

1:05

the Cia agent uploads the spyware onto

1:07

the Tv and and puts the Tv

1:09

and fake off mode. And. Leaves.

1:12

And. The Tv sets. They're recording all

1:15

the audio in the room but appears

1:17

to be off. And. Then the

1:19

Cia agent can remotely connect back to

1:21

the Tv and get the audio files

1:23

or come into the room later and

1:25

retrieve them off the Tv. It's Wildwoods

1:27

by Gear is developed by the Federal

1:29

authorities, isn't it? These.

1:35

Are true stories from the dark side of

1:37

the internet? I'm.

1:42

Jack resign her. This

1:44

is Dark Net Diaries. This.

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4:14

Why? Don't you start by tone as you name

4:16

and when you do. My

4:18

name's Joseph Cox. I'm the

4:20

author Old Stock Wire and

4:22

I'm also a cofounder and

4:25

journalist as thorough for media.

4:27

He was for a for doing. So.

4:29

Sorry for is a group

4:31

of four of us myself,

4:34

season Kepler and I noom

4:36

a big and Samantha Coal

4:38

and we're all former Sas

4:40

members. Advice is motherboard the

4:42

technology sites. Unfortunately, Vice made

4:44

some very poor material decisions

4:46

from the executives. And die

4:48

company is now bankrupt The we left

4:51

to make our own company. Where will

4:53

we? We want to continue doing tech

4:55

investigations, We want to continue telling stories.

4:57

and how about we do it in

4:59

the ways where we own the company,

5:01

you know? So we can only major

5:04

elicit decisions and editorial ones that we

5:06

can make business ones as well in

5:08

the hope that we can just keep

5:10

on doing what we love doing. Which

5:12

is another thing stories, verifying information and

5:14

publishing stuff is in the public interest.

5:17

Well you've You've created quite a name for

5:19

yourself over the years. I always see your

5:22

name popping up and and other books I

5:24

can article mentions of Cox said this and

5:26

are another story here as coding you and

5:28

different things so I'm just really well done

5:31

on your journalism. What? this latest project you

5:33

working on. Dark. We're so so

5:35

I started being a stark wire and

5:37

I was a psych, oh my God,

5:40

this is just amazing and I was

5:42

hoping we could talk about. As

5:45

course I mean I have

5:47

been working on this book

5:49

for. Free. Maybe four years

5:51

at this point? Speaking to. Essentially

5:54

every sort of person involved in

5:56

the does does law enforcement as

5:58

also a lot of. Very

6:00

dangerous people that. I

6:03

don't think I'd ever be more obsessed with a

6:05

story. I mean, I'm sure if the I've never

6:07

be more obsessed with the story than this one.

6:09

So this is an incredibly nuanced story, which is

6:11

going to fill your head with a lot of

6:14

questions. I know, I did that to me, but

6:16

let's first start with some context. I

6:18

am not a criminal, but I make a

6:20

lot of effort to be private and secure.

6:22

and the first time I'm in an effort

6:25

to have a privacy phone was after read

6:27

an article by Joseph. He was using an

6:29

ipod touch and did all his phone calls

6:31

over why fights? The main advantage here is

6:33

that there's no Sim card in an ipod

6:36

touch. It basically has all the features of

6:38

an I phone. just know Sim card so

6:40

that means nobody can same swap you. But

6:42

also, Sim cards are notorious for beginning out

6:45

to cell towers and giving fairly accurate location.

6:47

The that's a. Cellphone providers and as

6:49

even if your phone is always using

6:51

a Vpn because Sim cards communicate with

6:53

cell towers using these ban technology which

6:56

operates completely outside a Vpn So this

6:58

Ipod Touch was the mean phone that

7:00

Joseph was using to keep private. That.

7:03

That's. Be my life So years of

7:06

this point? Yeah you. You use that

7:08

as like a secure phone Raped. Yes,

7:11

For years I use an ipod Touches

7:13

to devise a know it moves onto

7:15

the I Pad mini because the I

7:17

no longer supporters. Unfortunately. When. Apple

7:19

Stop supporting the Ipod Touch. I switched

7:22

over to Graphene O S which is

7:24

a fork of Android. It's an open

7:26

source projects with a lot more privacy

7:28

features added in and unlike Android the

7:30

don't send everything I do back to

7:32

Google my messaging app of choices signal

7:34

which I can also make phone calls

7:36

with because signal is end to end

7:38

encrypted which means the people at Signal

7:41

can't see my message is only the

7:43

receiver of who I'm chatting with can

7:45

and I do so much more to

7:47

remain private online so you can see.

7:49

Joseph and I We take our mobile

7:51

privacy very seriously and we want the

7:53

best there is. And then

7:56

one day Joseph heard about this

7:58

new privacy phone calls. A

8:00

Non. So

8:03

I call it an encrypted

8:05

phone, which is simultaneously. A

8:08

helpful term but and Elsinore a helpful

8:10

at all for free To really have

8:12

a terminal disease for it's by yes

8:15

it's a combination the same se had

8:17

a secure communications app that allows you

8:19

to send and to encrypt messages to

8:22

to one another with photos. Voice

8:24

memos and will have a very

8:26

much like a signal or a

8:28

Muslim what sap or free. My

8:31

role was as a rights and

8:33

he also was a custom. Own

8:36

Operating Systems. It is based.

8:38

On Android some what is actually

8:41

a fork of Graphene O S

8:43

the privacy focused operating systems apparently

8:45

and norm. It also removes all

8:47

Cps functionality so that they will

8:49

be no way for law enforcement

8:51

or Google or sort of third

8:53

party apps to track the locations

8:56

of those devices. I think the

8:58

features of unarmed are amazing. I

9:00

mean it took Graphene O S

9:02

the phone operating system I already

9:04

use which is considered great already

9:06

for privacy and it made it

9:08

even. More lockdown? What?

9:11

And the features just kept going. Like for

9:13

instance, a Nom had it's own little end

9:15

encryption chat app they'll tense but it was

9:17

in his secrets. But the thing is they're

9:19

all these dummy apps on the phone. like

9:21

if you look at the phone it has

9:23

tinder on there and candy crush. they look

9:25

like normal apps but they're just decoys they

9:27

didn't really work. And another app you'd see

9:30

on the home screen was a calculator app

9:32

which work just fine like a regular calculator

9:34

except if you were to open a calculator

9:36

apps and punch in a certain code. That's.

9:38

When it would open up the secret

9:41

unarmed Chad messaging app, it was hidden

9:43

beneath a few layers of obfuscation. With

9:46

hey that's pretty good if you're having

9:48

a private conversations and I don't know

9:50

of an abusive partners such as your

9:52

phone from the brothers for your messages

9:54

or issue criminals. a police officer does

9:56

this or border a system or something

9:58

like that. so there's that. There's

10:00

also voice scrambling, so.

10:03

You know how on signal you can

10:05

send a voice know for one another

10:07

and that's very popular. Another messaging apps

10:10

on a non you could do away

10:12

with add either like a high pitched

10:14

distortion or a low. the stores and

10:16

to as well. And now with Moscow

10:18

your real voice sounded like who is

10:20

the brainchild behind and on who created

10:23

this thing. So. A norm

10:25

was created by someone called ask if. I.

10:27

Have to be a little

10:29

be careful about was a

10:31

say about them for reasons

10:33

that will get in suits

10:35

but they are from what

10:37

I've learned a pretty sources

10:39

New Jersey Tech expert for

10:41

the Criminal Underground. They were

10:43

connected to a very well

10:45

known criminal code. I can

10:47

I it's who a one

10:49

point was Australia's most Wanted

10:51

Man and this Ascii character

10:53

cells or did cell phones

10:55

in this space before. Eventually

10:58

deciding, well, I'm.

11:00

Gonna go make my own. Like,

11:02

rather than working underneath other sellers

11:04

and sorts of other and tryptophan

11:07

companies, I'm going to create my

11:09

own tech startup for the Criminal

11:11

Underground. For. The Criminal Underground

11:13

wait a minute was linked. All

11:15

the features of the phone's they're

11:18

all sign. None of them are

11:20

illegal, but if you're specifically making

11:22

a phone for criminals knowingly and

11:25

purpose see helping criminal conduct their

11:27

crimes. Now. Suddenly what

11:29

ask it was doing was illegal.

11:31

Ah yes legally it's very messy

11:33

because it's not illegal generally speaking

11:35

to saddle use and except messaging

11:37

app which is a good thing

11:39

to be clear like that should

11:41

not be illegal. But a lot

11:43

of these companies in the i

11:45

would say savior part of the

11:47

encryption industry this thing that differentiates

11:50

the miss a day. The. Zebra

11:52

at least facilitate crime as an it's

11:54

not like signal whose uses with of

11:56

course into criminals or even Apple I

11:58

message or something just because. They're very

12:00

popular. One is the tag lines

12:02

was do I think he was.

12:05

Designed. For criminals by criminals, health

12:07

issues, just asking for trouble rarely

12:09

eats. Burnham had all of those

12:11

sorts of bells and whistles you

12:14

would expect. Seen a wiping the

12:16

phone, all of us or something

12:18

and it really positioned itself as

12:20

sources. The Royals Royce of

12:22

the encrypt his own industry if

12:24

you want is a super secure

12:26

device from a company that didn't

12:28

care if you're a criminal if

12:30

anything and likes the size, you're

12:32

a criminal you could turn to

12:34

and I'm. So. I learned from

12:36

the bucks at this is quite a lucrative

12:38

underground criminal industry. A Nom was not the

12:41

only one years and you gotta read the

12:43

book about what happened. All the other encrypted

12:45

phone companies like each of the competitors have

12:47

just as wild and crazy have a story

12:49

of what was going on with the knobs

12:52

and Joseph does a great job of giving

12:54

you a tour of this whole criminal encrypted

12:56

phone industry. But. It bugs me

12:58

because like I said, I'm not a

13:00

criminals, but I love having a highly

13:02

secure phone with the best privacy you

13:05

can get. so it's a weird line

13:07

for me that this is even a

13:09

criminal industry. And

13:11

skylight of someone started a hammer

13:13

company sally Hammers but it was

13:15

just selling hammers to criminals to

13:17

kill people with. And and

13:19

had like seeds there's on it like

13:21

non slip handle for when blood gets

13:24

on it or blunt side for smashing

13:26

stalls and fork side for stabbing through

13:28

stomachs and really assess the hammer. That's

13:30

no different than any other hammer but

13:33

it has the sole intention of being

13:35

for criminals to cause pain and injury

13:37

and the company works exclusively with criminals

13:39

to find ways to improve it. Like

13:42

why why not just make a great

13:44

hammer that the whole world issues? Why

13:46

make these secure phones for criminals. Privacy.

13:49

And security is important to the whole

13:51

world, not just criminals. Anyway,

13:54

so a nom was this really

13:56

sleek super a private phone that

13:58

you could buy and have. Secure

14:00

chat with others and was

14:02

purpose made for criminals. Dies

14:04

basically was a gnome was

14:06

pitching itself as to his

14:08

customers and even suis sellers.

14:10

A was saying your messages

14:12

will be ends when encrypted.

14:14

We can't see what's going

14:17

on. We won't turn over

14:19

data to law enforcement or

14:21

service or outside the reach

14:23

of the five eyes. all

14:25

of a normal sources marketing

14:27

and privacy benefit see with

14:29

expects except. Of course, thousand

14:31

troops. His Asom was doing

14:33

something else in the background.

14:36

On. So out, where are they doing? So.

14:39

Is. Very very interesting on on

14:42

on the technical level and

14:44

was it is answer and

14:46

nom. Basically created a ghosts

14:48

contacts that was added to

14:50

every conversation and it received

14:52

a a blind carbon copy

14:54

A B C C as

14:56

every message sent across the

14:59

platform. So when criminal Lay

15:01

was talking to come the

15:03

be about cocaine shipments the

15:05

was secretly being census to

15:07

the norm. Other users were.

15:09

None the wiser, it was

15:11

like having a spy in

15:13

everybody's. Pockets. In their

15:16

back pocket. looking over their shows they could just

15:18

see into effort. So. While

15:20

it's true, it was and and

15:22

encrypted. It. Was also and an

15:24

encrypted directly to announcer fierce yes

15:26

it is is is almost is

15:28

end to end to end. Encrypted

15:30

doesn't have an end in the.

15:34

So the steroid just tech a

15:36

ninety degree turn. The phone was

15:38

not actually as private as it

15:40

was advertising itself to me by

15:42

hold On Tight because we're taking

15:44

another ninety degree turn right now.

15:46

You gotta ask yourself, why was

15:49

unarmed wanting copies of every message?

15:51

No, I don't think a nom

15:53

or ask who cared about looking

15:55

at people's heads? However, ask who

15:57

knew the value of these messages.

16:00

And decided to make a very

16:02

odd deal to let someone see

16:04

those chats. And. I'm

16:06

not sure how the logic went down

16:08

here we we really don't know how

16:10

this deal was made, but my best

16:13

guess is since Ask You wasn't a

16:15

stranger to being a criminal himself and

16:17

he may have thought this whole encrypted

16:19

phone business is actually illegal and to

16:21

go very wrong for him at some

16:23

point and he needed a plan. Really

16:26

don't know where it's I wanna think

16:29

he was a brilliant business person that

16:31

just played every one perfectly. but ask

16:33

who's lawyer advised him to make a

16:36

deal with the F B I and

16:38

let them see the encrypted stats. This

16:41

way the F B I

16:43

would appreciate ask who and

16:45

not tried to arrest him

16:47

so why not ask his

16:49

lawyer his house he foresees

16:51

would you want to use

16:53

a Norm in your investigations

16:55

are in exchange for you

16:57

know leniency is as do

17:00

as a faces charges race

17:02

he became the wholesomeness. Bargaining.

17:05

Chip essentially. Okay,

17:08

so. That's

17:12

quite a leap. They are I am. It takes me I'm beat.

17:14

such as kind of. Be

17:16

like okay. That's. The how

17:19

the new things going rate it's. It's

17:21

it's. a jump. Yeah and

17:23

this is very quickly done in the

17:25

books and does not because I'm sort

17:28

of glazing. So for it's because this

17:30

has happened with the Christmas with and

17:32

of that's just the series of events

17:34

that happen south. I don't know whether

17:36

that was always a plan or something

17:39

like that was. it may be always

17:41

in the back of a school mind.

17:43

I don't know. That's very very quickly

17:45

and gnome was put on the table

17:48

to be F B I back in

17:50

around Twenty a team I think is

17:52

when these conversations were happening in the

17:54

F B I and the Australian Federal

17:57

Police. Yes! And The Australian

17:59

Federal Police for. And for years

18:01

they've been really stymied by Encrypt

18:03

is owned. They probably even more

18:05

than the Sp I in Australia.

18:08

These sorts of phones are incredibly

18:10

common among organized crime groups. Know

18:12

the you have the Italian Mafia

18:14

over there in Australia, them using

18:16

it's yours, the house, the biker

18:19

gangs I, the Com It's Arrows

18:21

and the Hell's Angels. And they

18:23

all use these sorts of phones.

18:25

And for years is no, you

18:27

know, more than a decade this.

18:30

Points: The A S P in

18:32

particular has been running into these

18:34

phones again and again and again

18:36

said the idea. Of. A back

18:38

door? In. And

18:40

encrypt iphone is incredibly attractive to them.

18:42

I mean why Been told is that

18:44

when the A as the agents were

18:46

told about this possibility in the plan

18:48

to go ahead they look like they

18:50

would kids on Christmas morning. So.

18:54

A deal was made the F

18:56

B I and A F P.

18:58

Australian Federal Police guy access to

19:01

all the encrypted messages going across

19:03

a arm. And.

19:05

This is where I start to

19:07

have a million questions. Whose as

19:10

as as as as Cooper's since

19:12

an undercover cop acting like a

19:14

fellow criminal but really working with

19:16

the feds? What? Kind of criminal. Make

19:18

deals with the feds like this. Is

19:20

this gets discovered. His whole business has

19:23

ruined. Or is asking

19:25

a brilliant business person cashing in

19:27

on both sides as a fence

19:29

making money off criminals and federal

19:31

police. At the same time. Maybe.

19:34

He's playing some forty chess, trying to

19:36

be a few moves ahead of everyone.

19:39

There's. A lot of unanswered questions yes of the A

19:42

of P were the first to get access to this

19:44

and they were looking to the logs and were like.

19:47

Ah, Says nothing

19:49

here. Because. And I

19:51

was just a startup companies and and how many

19:53

users yet the With the product already in the

19:55

and for sex in place it was time to

19:57

start marketing the saying. The next plan was. Figure

20:00

out how to get these a

20:02

non phones in the hands of

20:04

criminals specifically criminals and I guess

20:06

now I'm starting to see why

20:09

this phone was purpose made for

20:11

criminals. So the F B, I

20:13

and A of P could see

20:15

what everyone was the winds so

20:17

it starts when ask you the

20:19

crates of a gnome of his

20:22

the phones to a particular phones

20:24

hello/drug trafficker in Australia his name

20:26

is to Monaco Sincerity and he

20:28

used to sell Phantom. Secure Phones

20:30

one of those earlier companies and when

20:33

that company was shot down he obviously

20:35

doesn't really have any phones to sell.

20:37

Well lo and behold he comes ask

20:39

do with one. Looks like it's gonna

20:42

be the hottest new phone on the

20:44

market. so the he provides some of

20:46

those phones to to Censor Se and

20:49

just starts using them into start talking

20:51

about the myspace in the rounds. I

20:53

think initially the phones right he just

20:55

given free to test and Ciresi. It's

20:58

almost like a source of. Goober

21:00

technique, Silicon Valley Gross technique. I don't

21:02

know just to get out there for

21:04

free and Bills will figure out the

21:06

laws will figure out the market later,

21:08

but we just want to get devices

21:10

into people's hands. basically. Early

21:14

users were like in the phones

21:16

word was getting out about him

21:19

and more orders were being made,

21:21

chat messages started to show up

21:23

and F P C what was

21:25

happening. At least be Australians we

21:27

A T it was relatives the

21:29

real time instantaneous you know they

21:32

could see that's oh become it's

21:34

arrows are talking about Pc of

21:36

this of this gang is talking

21:38

about. Doing a weapon

21:40

sort of of like high caliber

21:43

assault rifles as his time in

21:45

this case of a was really

21:47

like peeling back the curtain on

21:50

these conversations. With if

21:52

he's like sexually resting people. Were they just

21:54

watching trying to figure out what to do?

21:56

It. As a

21:58

saw sea ice tea. Haha

22:00

no I'm sick hi the intelligence

22:02

services Massive tradeoff constantly throughout this

22:05

entire story which is that okay

22:07

you have a joint or foe

22:09

the housing that from that to

22:11

us to earth and wins us

22:13

some information because if you go

22:15

to Laos too quickly you're going

22:17

is still have become obvious to

22:19

the criminals or something bad is

22:21

going on Police to them. Yeah.

22:25

Yeah, I found this syncing all

22:27

reading the book. Hi interesting us.

22:31

Oh my gosh, there's there's had some crime going

22:33

on here. we can see it happening. When.

22:35

We do. The weights,

22:38

the pats dance because you have to

22:40

have some sort of good reason why

22:42

how you knew that was happening and

22:44

if it was wow we've got access

22:46

to those the any or shots and

22:48

your phone's then that's gonna just ruin

22:50

the whole company so they really have

22:52

to be very careful and I'm surprised

22:54

it wasn't just some A of P

22:56

officer like I'm not going to be

22:59

care if I'm gonna their dominant ghosts

23:01

stop this drug deal and and just

23:03

not and understand the intricacies of it.

23:06

Yeah. He

23:08

got to the point where the people

23:10

I've spoken to the lawful since officials

23:12

around the world they had to do

23:14

stuff like basically like they have to.

23:17

Make. The story whereas like okay we

23:19

are finally going to strike on this

23:22

drug lab or this drug warehouse or

23:24

whatever because is so large and we

23:26

have to act but we go into

23:28

rights, intelligence and such a way. They

23:31

look like it's coming from and informants

23:33

are sourced I there's going to be

23:35

no mention of the norms, no mention

23:37

of a backdoor and you know from

23:39

a lot of for perspective that's great

23:42

in okay we we managed to get

23:44

the drugs and arrest the people of

23:46

was as a while without revealing a

23:48

you know d the secret about the

23:51

norms. On the flipside, there is a

23:53

justice issue there. Universe: basically parallel construction.

23:56

It's. Very complicated. He gets rain nuance

23:58

by do think this. There's a Libertarian.

24:00

this would be a little bit aghast at

24:03

sort of the tradeoffs. The were being mesa

24:05

on a daily basis. I

24:08

think everyone's aghast at the whole summer he

24:10

spoke. I. Shall

24:12

Be Sincere is a situation where

24:14

the Federal Police are lying on

24:17

the record. About whether get

24:19

their intelligence from. Our the citizens

24:21

of that country okay with that Here

24:23

in the Us during cord your Ass

24:25

to swear that you're telling the truth.

24:28

The cops weren't telling the truth here. Are.

24:30

Against not yet telling the truth. We

24:32

learned later how the did get this

24:34

information but the evidence and he's earlier

24:36

cheeses did not mention a nom. But.

24:39

Additionally, they were working with this

24:41

criminal. Ask who to get these

24:43

messages and I call him a

24:45

criminal because if someone makes an

24:47

app exclusively for criminals to conduct

24:49

Grimes with than historically, that's criminal

24:51

behavior. To. Lose our school

24:53

and when the doubly start making

24:55

business deals with criminals. Is

24:58

their proper oversight years? Is this

25:00

within best practices for the Feds

25:02

points of the policy that allows

25:04

this. This. Just doesn't sit

25:06

right with me. And you might

25:08

say to me jag the ends justify the

25:10

means of all this results in a take

25:13

down have a lot of criminals than it's

25:15

okay for them the lie and to back

25:17

alley deals with criminals. Really?

25:20

What? About Fast and Furious This was

25:22

a real operation done by the

25:24

Asia Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms were

25:26

the set up weapons deals with criminals

25:28

so they could track where these

25:30

weapons are going and ultimately try

25:32

to arrest a bunch of weapons

25:34

sellers. Yeah. Well it all went

25:36

wrong. The A T F made weapons

25:39

deals but lost. Track of the guns

25:41

that were sold. They didn't make

25:43

significant arrests and basically. Armed the

25:45

very criminals they were trying to find

25:47

and arrest. This. Ultimately resulted

25:50

in a border Patrol agent. Getting

25:52

killed and at the scene of the crime.

25:54

Was one of the guns as the

25:56

eight yes sold to criminals. The.

25:59

Ends Did. Not justify the means

26:01

hear. The. Fast and furious.

26:03

Operation was a big. Mishap.

26:06

And it showed how the

26:08

Hf was operating without proper

26:10

strategies or oversight or following

26:12

policies put in place. Where

26:15

what was the deal? de de de de f

26:17

b I take ownership of it or how did

26:19

they were is their licensees. Synthetic.

26:22

This light licensing and elements of

26:24

it is so the the deal

26:26

itself is between us to. And

26:29

Us authorities and got paid something

26:31

like a hundred and twenty thousand

26:34

dollars and then sixty thousand dollars

26:36

for some travel expenses. I think

26:38

his hair was phrased and in

26:40

some as the the documents bucks

26:42

a non basically became an S

26:45

I. Tech company from wife

26:47

means holes from people was direct

26:49

involvement. You know, Dsp. I was

26:51

picking up the bill they were

26:53

paying for infrastructure. That's they were

26:56

paying for hardware Android hardware for

26:58

the phones city apt to be

27:00

flashed on. They were. they will

27:02

running a tech company. anything. That's

27:04

just the craziest thing. Head And

27:06

beyond that, they were running a

27:08

tech company for criminals. Yet.

27:11

And and and it's fascinating to that ask

27:13

who was somehow able to control the company

27:15

in a way that all the developers and

27:17

suppliers and shippers and every what they've since

27:19

test. The distributors had no idea that the

27:21

F B, I or A of P was

27:23

involved I or even that there was a

27:26

man in the middle or me. What was

27:28

that was the the kind of the thoughts

27:30

at the going on in the developers had.

27:32

did they know that they were building man

27:34

in the middle encrypted didn't end encryption or

27:36

what was whether they think. So.

27:39

Yeah, I've spoken to people who

27:41

actually causes the atom basically made

27:43

the phone and these were completely

27:45

ordinary developers. You know when I

27:47

spoke to to a cool as

27:49

it's in the books by used

27:51

to different names are super to

27:53

buried and cease but a sound

27:55

like a freelance and gig online

27:57

about the security me the cases

27:59

that. They get involved and they

28:01

doing normal closing like they've done a

28:03

million times before for an Android apps

28:05

and what they're told us that we

28:08

make this app and we salute to

28:10

businesses. We sell it to corporations to

28:12

protect their communications and as part of

28:14

their companies like to be absurd old.

28:16

it's their the messages you know and

28:18

thus very common in banking. Very common

28:20

in financials. Us will sing for legal

28:23

reasons. I found that part to be

28:25

interesting. I didn't realize how com and

28:27

that was So the other day I

28:29

was looking. To see if on google

28:31

has any sort of and and encryption

28:33

in their chats and I didn't think

28:36

they did but they're like we do.

28:39

Not like was a suit set a

28:41

sign Me up and it's like well

28:43

what we have is for businesses, enterprise

28:45

and the what we the way we

28:47

have it set up is that the

28:49

admin of the Count can see all

28:51

the messages that your users are sending

28:53

encrypted and else I would hold on

28:55

a sec since why would you have

28:57

a man in the middle of an

28:59

encrypted thing and then I read your

29:01

book and I was like oh this

29:03

is more common than I realize where

29:05

companies do like friend since I think

29:07

you mentioned you know federal federal agencies.

29:09

Have to be able to pull up

29:11

any communications, emails, chat, messages and stuff

29:14

in case there's indictments or subpoenas. What

29:16

Did What was talked about federally or

29:18

even state agencies and least in the

29:20

U S. Him. And this

29:22

stuff has to be archived. And of

29:24

it's a new encrypted. you can't archive it in

29:26

a proper way so there is a reason to

29:28

get in and take a look at. I don't

29:30

know this. This kind of just surprised me. Yeah,

29:34

I mean Customs and Border

29:36

Protection part of Dhs. They

29:38

use wicca, the encrypted after

29:40

many people be familiar with

29:42

for the use and and

29:44

surprise old government versions which

29:46

yes it's encrypted. Buy a

29:48

house that extra archiving functions

29:50

and the. Developers have

29:52

a Gnome. That's what they thought they

29:54

were building. They thought they were building

29:57

a communications platform. For. Businesses to.

30:00

Talk about securely have the messages archives

30:02

to so dense. For whatever reason, the

30:04

administrative can go through them at a

30:06

later date. That's what they thought they

30:08

were doing. Well, they weren't so which

30:11

was bad as opposed to being sold

30:13

to criminals and the archiving features actually.

30:15

for the F B I ask you

30:17

left out the L A when are

30:19

telling the developers about Less Enemy just

30:22

very briefly on their legs The composite

30:24

the compartmentalization the ask ask you did

30:26

I think is very interesting as in

30:28

like they were the people's. Designing the

30:30

up a neighbor sort of in

30:32

their own silence that with them people

30:35

making custom fork of casino s

30:37

the Android operating system and it

30:39

was those people and then some or

30:41

else they were the you know

30:43

the criminal resellers on the grounds and

30:45

like these groups never really communicated

30:47

with one another and I'm surprised it

30:50

didn't leak. To be perfectly honest

30:52

I am genuinely surprised but somehow a

30:54

managed to say a secrets a

30:56

least for a long time. Too.

31:00

Many secrets Sea Tac astronomy.

31:03

I mean, think about it's new criminals

31:05

think they're the ones being the most

31:07

secretive years. They've got these super private

31:09

unarmed phones which you need a pin

31:11

to unlock and then go to a

31:13

dummy calculator app to punch in a

31:15

secret code to get into the chat

31:17

apps there and and encrypted right then.

31:19

They're doing things like disguising their voice

31:21

and having disappearing messages and being super

31:23

secretive about their crimes, trusting unarmed with

31:26

all their secrets. And

31:28

there's ask who who is secretly scooping

31:30

up all these messages and lines, his

31:32

developers of who these customers are. And

31:34

then there's the F B I have

31:36

p who are secretly reading them off

31:39

and secretly making business deals for the

31:41

school. I mean did you know that

31:43

the F B I was operating had

31:45

sex start up? Which. Was a

31:48

phone purposely built for criminals he

31:50

used. message each other it's secrets

31:52

or attempt from you and they're

31:54

still see to. Loud.

31:58

Criminals. Had no idea. We're

32:00

being played, so unarmed phones just kept

32:02

spreading. They ended up making their way

32:04

to some criminals in Europe and things

32:06

really started the heat up there. The.

32:10

Phone so popping up in Europe

32:12

and that's when Bruce sort of

32:14

the Swedish police get involved in

32:16

and also the ducks they are

32:18

the two main European agencies. Stuff

32:20

says come forward because I simply

32:23

where the phones are ending up

32:25

and of a Cvs P doesn't

32:27

really have to six and a

32:29

super star Sweden, oh the Netherlands

32:31

and the Us be Ice elite

32:33

although they are reading the messages

32:35

by this points that don't exist

32:38

for a start and Vsp I.

32:40

Can't really go over and start

32:42

arresting people in the Netherlands On

32:44

is not a no surprise so

32:46

they decide to share some of

32:48

the intelligence with the Swedish and

32:50

Ads Us counterpart say starts to

32:52

mirror was going on in Australia

32:54

with skill more intelligence gathering in

32:56

the rest. here in the rest

32:58

the space still very much under

33:00

wraps even though more remove cop

33:02

sitting luton. Some.

33:04

Crazy things started happening with the arm at

33:06

this point. it takes more and more ninety

33:09

degree turns. I'm not even going to get

33:11

into what happened in Europe or South America

33:13

are Turkey's I'll simply say that there were

33:15

a few criminals that love this a non

33:17

phone so much that they tried to purchase

33:20

ownership of then companies and eventually to started

33:22

calling themselves the Ceo of Unarmed. Would.

33:24

Soup when a major underground criminal as saying

33:26

he's the Ceo of an ounce, it really

33:29

legitimize of the phone for other criminals wanna

33:31

buy? It's so the unarmed phones were starting

33:33

to grow wings and take on a life

33:35

of their own in Europe at this point

33:37

I've read. I think tens

33:39

if not hundreds of thousands of.

33:42

A non messages and messages from

33:44

of provides as well And what

33:47

emerges from reading those is there's

33:49

a lot of people who sell

33:51

is encrypted phones in a particular

33:53

markets or territories they treated like

33:55

having a drug territory like in

33:57

the same way the somebody may

33:59

be. A the wholesale

34:01

distribution for. You.

34:04

Know a certain part of Sweden

34:06

or may and Serb Ceo or

34:08

something like that. These

34:10

phone dealers treats their products in

34:12

the same source of way. I'm

34:14

A so I want to shift gears her

34:16

to the F B isis so that that

34:18

a lot of questions about what the have

34:20

be us to enhance first of on. Fb.

34:23

I handles internal.

34:26

Threats To The United States.

34:29

They're not the Cia which

34:31

is doing international investigation. So.

34:34

I don't even understand why the F B

34:36

I would be looking at foreign has it's

34:38

isn't the first place. yeah I think this

34:40

is something. the are lots of people reading

34:43

the book is in there as. An

34:45

issue with basically Athena in a way

34:47

to put him which is like why

34:49

is this Us law enforcement agencies intercepting

34:51

and reading messages from all over the

34:53

wells and the best answer I have

34:56

is that while this to the source

34:58

of the legal one which is that

35:00

in the Fourth amendment's only protects people

35:02

on American soil right where you have.

35:04

To get a Sosa sees a warrant to go

35:06

free communications or a wire samples or orbs was

35:08

as a right not to get suits at the

35:10

cooks. The

35:13

F B I just on the the

35:15

for overseas and that's basically source of

35:17

the loopholes of the use where they

35:19

were able to go through all of

35:21

the status. The second one is like.

35:24

Source: Of a. How they

35:26

see themselves or maybe or how they

35:28

see their their ethical obligation as well.

35:31

But like the prosecutors I've spoken to

35:33

her involved in this case, they just

35:35

simply see this as a good thing

35:37

and they want to go out. And

35:39

they want to shut down all of

35:41

these criminal gangs. They want to intercept

35:44

them. I think that there are valid

35:46

questions about you know national sovereignty and

35:48

with us or to things but that

35:50

is what the F B I set

35:52

out to do. They set out see

35:55

why atop the wells essentially. And they

35:57

were very, very successful. Other. So

36:01

many questions I have at this point now many phones

36:04

when the u so the F b I kind of

36:06

really look at us since since chats even if they

36:08

wanted. But. The F B I was

36:10

heavily involved with unarmed. Creating

36:13

this start. Up Basically funding is

36:15

creating the infrastructure, actively monitoring the

36:17

messages and it just makes me

36:20

wonder. Have they solved all

36:22

the cases in the U S Or

36:24

and seats? Because to start a tech

36:26

companies. And collecting and analyzing and

36:28

reporting intelligence so that you could give.

36:31

It to other countries. First

36:33

six, a lot of time and

36:35

resources. so whose idea was it

36:37

to divert as the I resources

36:40

to focus on stopping crimes and.

36:42

Sweden. And

36:45

Australia? I mean, It

36:47

it it is. Polly the doing

36:50

it because they can. They can

36:52

monitor these communications patrons. Yes, they

36:54

can't go arrest people themselves, but

36:56

then they can provide an intelligence

36:58

to foreign partners. I mean is

37:00

is source of a over use

37:02

cliche this point. You know the

37:05

idea of America being the will

37:07

police or whatever, but there is.

37:10

Better. Than elements of us stereotypes

37:12

is in that Vsp I went out.

37:15

And they collect. All these messages are

37:17

all around the world. even though they

37:19

couldn't months ago was going on America's

37:21

this is sources the seem to policing

37:24

though we're in now and I wasn't

37:26

really debate about it but it was

37:28

just like one day. So several days

37:31

over the past few years police of

37:33

just decided to they're going to stack

37:35

or of always intercept communications all around

37:37

the world basically ends. We didn't really

37:40

get a chance to talk about that

37:42

as a society about whether that's something

37:44

we once. Maybe since we do like I

37:46

don't know but we can't have a conversation the

37:48

less we know what's going on and as kind

37:51

of was hoping to do with this book. Pause.

37:54

And consider this the Sp

37:56

Eyes fundamental mandate is to

37:58

protect and defend. A nation

38:00

from threats. Defend. However,

38:04

In this story, they've gone on

38:06

the offense in the name of

38:08

defects. And this difference

38:11

is worth noticing. I

38:13

mean imagine you're defending yourself in some legal

38:15

battles and you're worried you might lose because

38:17

of some surprise thing, the opposition my bring

38:19

up. So to defend yourself better, you decide

38:22

to break into the other lawyers office and

38:24

steal all their notes that they have on

38:26

the case. or hack into their phones and

38:28

see their chat messages. All

38:30

so you can better defend

38:33

yourself. Well, this tactic would

38:35

be unequivocally unethical. Yet.

38:38

The F B I strategy

38:40

here is to penetrate private

38:42

chats in pursuit of criminal

38:44

activities. It's crossing that boundary

38:46

from passive monitoring to act

38:49

as intrusion. And I think

38:51

it's important to be aware when that

38:53

boundary gets cross because we never see

38:55

them cross it. Since. It's

38:57

always done in the shadows, If. The

39:00

Fk for to cross a boundary

39:02

in the physical world. It would

39:04

be akin to them secretly breaking

39:06

into thousands of homes, rummaging through

39:09

personal belongings because they're trying to

39:11

detect crime. This wouldn't be

39:13

acceptable. So why then, should our digital

39:15

lives be subject to a lower standard

39:17

of privacy? I guess. Cfp

39:20

I use all kinds of spank

39:22

your though across threshold all the

39:24

time, like wire tapping and planting

39:26

bugs. They're always covertly reaching in

39:28

the someone's communication and taken it.

39:30

But I think what's different about

39:32

this story is the mass surveillance

39:35

aspect to it's all. messages for

39:37

all users were being collected and

39:39

stored. And it wasn't stored in

39:41

the F B. I stayed obese, exactly. But

39:43

the F B I was funding this company

39:46

who was collecting at all. I

39:48

remember when the Snowden revelations came out.

39:50

The An Essay and Gchq were trying

39:52

to collect massive amounts of data flowing

39:54

over the internet, not targeting a specific

39:57

person, just grabbing everything. Which means a

39:59

lot of. Dawn criminals were getting their

40:01

d to analyze and I wonder. Is

40:04

that offensive as well? It's

40:06

mass spying at least, and I

40:08

for one, don't approve of government's

40:10

doing mass spying on their citizens.

40:13

But this is crazy ethical dilemma

40:15

because what if the mass spying

40:17

is just on the criminals? I

40:19

think that's. Is something

40:21

the. Crips. Increases and

40:23

bribes to expose. whispers in the booth were

40:26

worried about, which is that some of them.

40:28

Are less worries about. The.

40:31

Specific case of an old boss them

40:33

out to be clear, but they're more

40:35

worried about. well, what happens now if

40:37

we haven't Network has ninety percent criminal

40:39

and ten percent normal users. Is that

40:41

a fair? Targets? I don't know what

40:44

happens when they move to sixty sixty,

40:46

you know, and there's a really good

40:48

close in Their from must agree in

40:50

the Crib Zola. Just and he says

40:52

bass, Well, maybe fifty percent of the

40:54

criminals on this network doing really really

40:56

bad stuff like trafficking or whatever and

40:58

and fifty percent are doing like are

41:00

there no. Copyright infringement or song lyrics

41:03

Something that I don't think people really

41:05

care about in the eyes of law

41:07

enforcement. Is that says August. And

41:10

that's the discussion when or having and we need

41:12

to have that as quickly as possible because of

41:14

wisdom or force them to just gonna go Had

41:16

do. People. Sometimes say to

41:18

me when we're talking about government surveillance

41:20

at they've got nothing to hide. And

41:23

they are worried about it. Or.

41:25

With those people. Are really

41:28

saying is that they're always

41:30

going to comply with the

41:32

government. No. Matter what, They're.

41:35

Never going to have dissenting

41:37

views are protests, and honestly,

41:39

I've never met anyone who

41:41

one hundred percent agrees with

41:43

the government's know Madison leadership.

41:46

It's important that we preserve

41:49

our freedom to have opposing

41:51

views with the government watching

41:53

us, Because the thing is,

41:55

if we're being watched, it

41:58

seems is our actions. Gosh

42:00

in this story the F B I themselves

42:02

as does to hide. And they can't

42:04

spy on people in the U S without

42:06

proper warrants and stuff. But they were circumventing

42:08

this rule by providing intelligence to other countries

42:11

and then those countries providing intelligence. Back to

42:13

the F B I go to it's it's

42:15

It's a worry those big were in the

42:17

third ones in. in this case it was

42:19

ice. Even though the F B I can

42:22

look of phones in America B A S

42:24

P agrees to keep an eye on the

42:26

ones on American soil for for us to

42:28

lice and you know on one hand you

42:30

to say this will. It's good the As

42:32

P were monitoring. that's. And nobody go

42:35

hurts hopefully on new friends. Well

42:37

why did the field scout warrants

42:39

do themselves feel? We're. Gonna take

42:41

a quick ad break that see with us because

42:43

since well clearly you can see there's a ticking

42:45

time bomb going on at this point. This.

42:50

Episode is sponsored by Exon yes,

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43:26

On phones were getting picked up by

43:28

some criminals in Europe would seeking them

43:30

to Dubai to try to sell on

43:33

their some of the phones landed in

43:35

Dubai and zero part of the Uae

43:37

and you he is very interesting because

43:39

is one of the very few places

43:41

the you're not allows to just go

43:43

around the stalls selling and encrypt iphone

43:45

or encrypted abs if is not approved

43:47

by the government's you can go into

43:49

a lot of trouble you know I

43:51

just sort of in the same way

43:53

as I the Russian Federation right way.

43:56

Why is. Encryption about problem there.

43:58

It has to be approved. By

44:00

the government's is basically a combination

44:02

of the censorship and surveillance a

44:04

sort of posture whereas if you

44:06

are selling and encrypted app that

44:08

the local authorities and national authorities

44:10

do not approvals still not allowed

44:12

to do that and the reason

44:14

being is that body wants to

44:16

be a to access up and

44:18

ask somebody running round selling a

44:20

non phones is not going to

44:22

go on their good side. See.

44:25

It's not completely out of the question

44:27

for your governments to ban encryption to

44:29

force the people of the country to

44:32

use certain apps so they can see

44:34

into it's. This. I think

44:36

is a huge violation of our

44:38

privacy. Luckily in the United States

44:41

we have the Fourth Amendment's of

44:43

the constitution's which states or read

44:45

the whole thing for you. The.

44:47

Right of the people to be

44:49

secure in their persons houses, Papers

44:51

and effects against unreasonable searches and

44:54

seizures shall not be violated and

44:56

no warrants shall issue, but upon

44:58

probable cause supported by oath or

45:00

affirmation and particularly describing the place

45:02

to be searched and the person

45:05

or things to be seized. The.

45:07

Fourth Amendment is needed to

45:10

maintain a balance between national

45:12

security interests. And individual

45:14

rights. It's. A tool

45:16

to make sure that the government

45:19

actions are subject to oversight and

45:21

rounded and legitimate need if we

45:23

eliminate that protect since it creates

45:25

a really dangerous power dynamic. And.

45:28

A slippery slope towards a

45:30

government that abuse of power

45:32

with no accountability. Is

45:35

the Us government did some kind

45:37

of mass surveillance? And was

45:39

searching through all that data. Without.

45:42

A warrant. It seems to

45:44

me it would be in

45:46

direct violation of the Us

45:48

constitution. And yet here's

45:50

a situation where the F B

45:52

I was running as tech startup

45:55

with the entire A gold to

45:57

be snooping on, other users chats,

45:59

watching. Every message to see

46:01

if there was criminal activity.

46:04

There's. No targeted search Your. No.

46:06

Individual warrants were being made. At this

46:08

point they were analyzing. All.

46:11

The chat messages going through a non. Is

46:14

this in violation of the Fourth Amendment's.

46:17

I. Can make a case that it was. And.

46:20

The F B I had that in

46:22

there had to so they were trying

46:24

hard not to peek into any Americans

46:27

messages. The data was

46:29

available in unarmed database, but they

46:31

had to program their system to

46:33

only show them foreign chance. I

46:35

mean I walked through the same

46:37

rooms the Bsp I was reading.

46:39

be no messages in. Sight.

46:42

Obtains screenshots of or Bsp I interface

46:44

looks like so I see your lights.

46:46

I feel like I can put myself

46:48

in the head of subsidies F B

46:51

I agents because I've also read some

46:53

of these messages as well. Rights and

46:55

the system itself is cause holler I

46:57

you log in. Initially it was just

47:00

from the San Diego F B I

47:02

field office but then they made it

47:04

promotes as well for the European partners

47:06

and also because his tweezers people can

47:08

go to the office as much skew

47:11

loggins and a source the green and

47:13

black interface and you can click on

47:15

an individual a norm user. And

47:18

it will show sort of a constellation

47:20

of all of that contact so be

47:22

a circle in the middle and beats

47:24

another so called the person bespoke zeus

47:26

and is another circle with so sort

47:28

of the group chats you can and

47:30

zero in on those is always like

47:32

amount he goes sources interface and then

47:34

once you go to specific user you

47:36

can see the all of her messages.

47:38

You can see all of their photos

47:40

and brother handily. There was also a

47:42

I powered summaries of what was being

47:44

spoken about powers a least in some

47:47

way by Amazon. The F B I

47:49

used my Amazon capability the as you

47:51

can look on the right side of

47:53

the screen and inside. Jerry it's okay

47:55

about a cocaine the hospital or whatever

47:57

it's and sometimes and fab lumps else

47:59

will. Which was just always hilarious

48:01

to me. Experts When it gets to

48:03

the point where there are millions and

48:05

then tens of millions as messages Psp

48:08

I have to turn to sympathies say

48:10

I capabilities consists of wise they're going

48:12

to be swimming and data and by

48:14

the end they were absolutely swimming in.

48:16

Day says there was a real danger.

48:19

Verse. If they did not analyze

48:21

every single Maisons but what would happen

48:23

This the one message about death for

48:26

a golfer than somebody dies That was

48:28

a constant threats and it really really

48:30

ramped up as a non became especially

48:33

more popular. This tool that they were

48:35

using it was it developed by Unarmored

48:37

developed by F B I. Hello!

48:40

I bought was developed by as be

48:43

I computer scientists was made in the

48:45

house as basically like the surveillance interface

48:47

of an. Sounds

48:49

pretty advanced to be able to. I

48:53

eat have this graphical view of who's connected

48:55

to who and then also use a I

48:57

to search for spectrum cause a lot of

48:59

the criminals are you since code words for

49:01

for different drug names and all this kind

49:03

of stuff thing in our Spartan the police.

49:06

And but they're able to a final that.

49:09

Yeah and I mean if you think about

49:11

it like of imagine a a normal wire

49:13

top and like L A or something and

49:15

is one guy talking to another guy in

49:17

a normal phone and the talk about a

49:19

drug deal. and if you're the F B

49:21

I or who as a you have to

49:23

figure out who these people are and that

49:25

might be tricky. you know as you say

49:27

maybe the using codenames, maybe the using pseudonyms

49:29

and then you go about you may be

49:31

a phone location data you figure for the

49:33

or whatever. Now imagine doing that. says.

49:36

Something like twelve thousand people in one

49:38

hundred and sixty different countries. It's like

49:40

I always com picture the task in

49:42

front of him and that's why they

49:45

had to turn city's pretty sophisticated systems

49:47

to figuring out notice what people are

49:49

saying but through the how these people

49:51

even are and they would do that

49:53

in the need for books in of

49:56

the stereotypical grass on the wall and

49:58

Bsp I was his with. The

50:00

the layouts of the from criminal organizations

50:03

and in some cases Cspi doesn't even

50:05

know who these people are assessed. I

50:07

just like. Bo we haven't

50:09

You crime syndicate on the platform This

50:12

star mapping out how they're related to

50:14

one another So you he said you

50:16

know we're looking for that's that's allies

50:19

or what was there was like really

50:21

what they were like let's not let

50:23

that slip through and will release I

50:25

am focus on yeah So as well

50:28

as the drug trafficking the main saying

50:30

that flows across the norm were while

50:32

the F I cause frets a life

50:34

and this is where a criminal organization

50:37

or just individual criminal want to. Harm,

50:39

torture, or in many cases

50:42

kill somebody else and this

50:44

happens across the norm. Constantly.

50:48

To the point where one of

50:50

the F B I agents who

50:52

was reading you know messages of

50:54

says his task was just to

50:56

go through every single image that

50:58

was sent across the platforms and

51:00

often these were weapons or locations

51:02

or targets ends the way was

51:04

described to me it's is that.

51:07

Is. Trying to figure out a possible basically

51:09

as quickly as possible you have to

51:11

take all these disparate pieces of information

51:13

and make you only have a photo

51:15

of a weapon so that indicates there's

51:17

probably going to be fine sense of

51:19

maybe you only have a photo of

51:21

the location is like will something's gonna

51:23

happen there and the sp I was

51:25

have to very very quickly as best

51:28

as I could. Figure. Out this

51:30

puzzle, give information to a foreign authorities

51:32

who couldn't act on it and then

51:34

maybe save people or or navy. No

51:37

I don't think he was always successful

51:39

but he did save lives in the

51:41

process as well Be it's gotta be

51:43

really complex because when you when you

51:46

to see to criminals talk to each

51:48

other over smith said since they're gonna

51:50

easily say i'm gonna kill you man

51:52

assistant that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna

51:55

kill him but it's just one of

51:57

these this the way our lingo. As

51:59

and. Then the opposite is when you're

52:01

saying okay listen we really need the

52:04

you know off this one person's There's

52:06

also like all kinds of i'm you

52:08

know. Coded

52:11

messages and they're just be like or minus

52:13

one this guy. And like minus one when

52:15

it's minus one. Me: no means didn't. Kill

52:18

him himself. You have to like

52:20

decode this. this that doesn't. That

52:23

must be incredibly difficult. Yeah.

52:25

There's a lot of posturing a man

52:27

for the enormous his eyebrows were. There

52:30

are people do exactly that? like all

52:32

I'm gonna kill him or whatever and

52:34

then you'll come across Messages were like

52:36

they are talking specifically about getting a

52:38

getaway car to drive away from the

52:40

restaurant after they've killed somebody that money

52:42

to rent and air Bnb to hide

52:44

the assassin in lights when he starts

52:46

to get specific and granular. A least

52:48

to me that's when it's like. Oh.

52:51

Okay, we need to actually take this seriously

52:53

and that smokes near the Swedish authorities did

52:55

the ducks as well and especially if be

52:57

on. Your end of. It's

52:59

also while because the typically what

53:02

we're talking when we're looking at

53:04

the or when I when I

53:06

was written a bucket seem like

53:09

this is criminal on criminal gang

53:11

gang activity right and so trying

53:13

to save the life of a

53:15

criminal's is sometimes the same as

53:18

you know moral situation you're dealing

53:20

with here. Yet said

53:22

a pussy has been a complicated ethical

53:24

spot and he pussy A since the

53:26

foreign agencies and same spot as well.

53:28

What thoughts to happen within the F

53:30

B I or as partners was in

53:32

such communications about affects allies the authorities

53:34

with an axe on it's you know

53:37

they would somehow stop the killing in

53:39

there could be in various ways but

53:41

then what would happen with be that

53:43

the criminals will continue talking and they

53:45

would go ah how to the authorities

53:47

know we were going to kill the

53:49

skies and they wouldn't assume it was

53:51

a nom. There was assume there was

53:53

a mole or avast in their organizations and then

53:55

they were trying to kill that persists for them

53:57

be a few as another threat to life. They

54:00

always became like this endless cycle

54:02

of spiral where it started to

54:04

become a sexually difficult for the

54:06

sp I to maintain sambo as

54:09

this is the way they described

54:11

it as there's so many ethical

54:13

and moral dilemmas here. I mean

54:15

so imagine the Ai tool that's

54:17

out there scouring messages looking for

54:19

a threat to life, but the

54:22

tool has to be trained to

54:24

ignore it is it's an American.

54:26

As on the phones as I

54:29

found through reporting this book, they

54:31

absolutely landed on American soil. They

54:33

were enormous Nunes being used inside

54:36

United States. There was a plan.

54:39

To. Start. Sense

54:41

of the F B I just are reading

54:43

those messages. That. It was very

54:45

difficult for them to figure out

54:47

what to do with all this

54:50

information they collected. They are basically

54:52

stumbles in being able to looks

54:54

at Us communications they just didn't

54:56

seem to be be appetites to

54:59

go off the people inside the

55:01

states. Even though the prosecutors me

55:03

agents on the case very very

55:05

much wants to to they were

55:08

ready to do it. They were

55:10

collaborating with a field office and

55:12

Los Angeles' as well. He

55:15

was just a matter of basically pulling the Swiss

55:17

for higher ups and the D O J. Shut

55:20

That down. Essentially, what is I mean, what would

55:22

it would have These hats look like? Does the

55:25

F B I go to. Congress.

55:27

Or why and say like, hey, we've

55:29

got this with okay, I had a

55:32

sit down because I got some crazy

55:34

story to tell us. We've got this.

55:36

We've got this mass surveillance tools that

55:38

we somehow bought from some guy. right

55:41

it's now we now have like view

55:43

into like the whole criminal world here

55:45

in the Us and or a you

55:47

know as as a large of and

55:50

a portion of it's of we would

55:52

like to do a mass arrests because

55:54

we can see this and but we

55:56

don't have the the warrants. We

55:58

need your help at like what does that? Do

56:00

you have any understanding of what those conversations were like?

56:03

Yes, so box happens. When it

56:05

was first approved for the F

56:07

B I to gain access to

56:09

the messages and jumbles was that

56:11

most drugs prosecutors in San Diego

56:13

In a specific meeting I describes

56:15

they were like know, this is

56:17

a ridiculous idea, you can't do

56:19

this and then. Shouted!

56:22

On top of that there were like. Well

56:24

don't even look at the U S chats right

56:26

leg. just look the other way because we don't

56:28

have of approval to even look at. It. Yes

56:31

exactly they would like. Please and look

56:33

at the U S messages we will

56:36

figure bow later fans. What

56:38

happens was was that the prosecutors on

56:40

that day they send their requests to

56:42

a specific parts of the Dj to

56:44

the Office of Enforcement Operations and they're

56:47

the ones who basically approve every why

56:49

are. If you want to wind up

56:51

in the U S they have to

56:53

approve. It ends the prosecutors ah me

56:55

in on cases and that's fans. Ojo

56:58

just sat on it for months And

57:00

months and months. There was clearly like

57:03

this device between sort of the cowboys

57:05

on the norm case and then like

57:07

the seen them or seen people in

57:09

the O J who's like we absolutely

57:11

not. Approving this

57:13

and a nom obviously grew to

57:16

a massive size even. Without

57:18

last but. It could

57:20

have grown even bigger with potentially

57:23

even more disastrous consequences. Yemeni

57:25

legalising like we've been talking. you know it

57:27

in In induces so many ethical dilemmas within

57:30

law enforcement of who will award winning a

57:32

wiretap for this and all this kind of

57:34

stuff at what's allowed and what's not allowed

57:36

and then there's a psych screw it weren't

57:38

alleges, get all the data and will figure

57:41

out what's allowed later. It seems weird. Isn't

57:43

that to go that direction? Yeah.

57:45

I. I I'm still using

57:48

the should be. a debate around was

57:50

a C for the running attack company

57:52

should be allowed the should be. It's

57:54

based on whether we want to be

57:56

of to hack into entire telecommunications providers.

57:58

Maybe the end result of. Conversations that

58:00

we as a society You're okay

58:02

with the tradeoffs, but. I don't

58:05

think ordinary members as the public one

58:07

first even know this is basically happenings.

58:09

The syllables aren't aware of what those

58:11

trade or season are they. How can

58:13

we even have conversations when this is

58:16

basically done in the shadows and then

58:18

everybody moves on. Here. And I

58:20

also just realized how who is the

58:22

sp? I is running a tech company

58:25

that is. Communication

58:27

Platform which is facilitating

58:29

the murder and drug

58:31

deal. Thinks

58:33

they are they responsible for over the

58:35

ones who made this communication possible. Were

58:38

the ones who put the phone in

58:40

your hand to make this. Even

58:43

happen there is there is some

58:45

responsibility there. I

58:47

mean there's no two ways about

58:49

it. The sp isis of a

58:51

taste crime With the developments and

58:53

the ongoing maintenance and the seeker

58:55

running of a norms the sp

58:57

I was eight sets. Backbone.

59:00

Of organized crime. Snow Yes, of

59:02

course they also have the surveillance

59:04

capabilities as well, but they were

59:06

selling a product to criminals and

59:08

the criminals making great use of

59:10

it. Like the ends

59:13

justify the means and some way I

59:15

think those how people who work in

59:17

the operation would fraser and as to

59:20

be ethical responsibility. From

59:22

everybody I've spoken suits they didn't

59:24

take be ethical consideration seriously like

59:26

we're running the stream occasions platforms

59:29

and that's why if a murder

59:31

does slow across the chest we

59:33

need to his response with aggressively

59:35

fans quickly. Now that is always

59:37

work out unfortunately but that was

59:39

the approach they were attending from

59:42

for the end of the day.

59:45

Those. Messages are still on Fb I heard shut

59:47

up. So that I think

59:49

about ask you again. He was making

59:52

a phone for criminals right? Like he

59:54

was working with criminals, listening to their

59:56

requests and adding and features like a

59:58

remote wipe ability. So. Because.

1:00:00

Ask who was making this for criminals.

1:00:03

It meant he was a criminal. Clearly.

1:00:06

right? Get. It was the F B. I

1:00:08

who is the true owners of this

1:00:10

company. So what is that? Take the

1:00:12

as the ice If they were making

1:00:14

something purposely for criminals to use. The.

1:00:17

Implications of the sources keep calling a

1:00:19

glimpse of tell you I have like

1:00:21

a million places. To Love

1:00:24

this book! June

1:00:27

Seventh, Two Thousand Twenty One. Just.

1:00:31

What happens on this day show

1:00:33

So the F B I and

1:00:35

it's foreign This they decide on

1:00:38

dates June Seventh Twenty Twenty one.

1:00:40

The reason for that is that

1:00:42

the country there was sort of

1:00:44

part as a technical infrastructure. Lithuania.

1:00:47

The court order was running

1:00:49

else but basically a know

1:00:51

mrs getting too unwieldy. It

1:00:53

was starting to get out

1:00:55

of the sp ice control.

1:00:59

Sellers. Were pushing into countries as

1:01:02

they wished. Every time the F B

1:01:04

I have more resources to monitor the

1:01:06

messages which was eventually like a hundred

1:01:09

and says he has B I agents

1:01:11

and Turtles than more messages came in.

1:01:13

These last for more resources the have

1:01:16

to be an end Points fans That

1:01:18

was basically the day was pets before

1:01:20

it went over the edge. Or

1:01:24

spoke suits multiple law enforcement

1:01:26

officials who are potholes, bad

1:01:28

dates and. The pressure

1:01:30

and the stress they felt was

1:01:32

incredible. The way was

1:01:34

set up With that he was

1:01:37

almost a global line. This dominoes

1:01:39

starting in Australia and they would

1:01:41

do their arrests first. it would

1:01:43

then move over to Europe and

1:01:46

then they would do their arrests.

1:01:48

and then eventually when people woke

1:01:50

up. ah on the west coast

1:01:52

in San Diego it's Psp. I

1:01:55

would come forward and they would

1:01:57

take credit for running a gnome

1:01:59

state. The. Single

1:02:02

largest law enforcement's action in

1:02:04

any one day. something like

1:02:06

ten thousand police officers were

1:02:09

involved in that one day.

1:02:11

It's in this world spanning

1:02:14

relay race, domino, track of

1:02:16

activity, good morning. I

1:02:20

Randy Grossman on the acting United States

1:02:22

Attorney for the Southern District of California.

1:02:24

Welcome Thank you for being here! We're

1:02:26

here today to announce the unsealing of

1:02:28

a federal indictment by a grand jury

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in the Southern District of California. Which.

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Charges: seventeen foreign nationals

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and facilitating drug trafficking,

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money laundering, And. Obstruction

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Of Justice. This

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is part of a worldwide law

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enforcement operation that has resulted in

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hundreds of arrests for drug trafficking.

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Money. Laundering. Firearms.

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Violations and crimes of violence.

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These international arrest and the U

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charges were possible because of a

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San Diego based F B I

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investigation like none other in history.

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This investigation called Operation Trojan

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Shield shined a light into

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the shadowy industry of harden

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encrypted devices. For.

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The first time. The. F B

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I developed and operated it's

1:03:17

own harden encrypted device company

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called Adam A N O

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M As Religion are indictment

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criminal organizations and the individual

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defendants that we have charge

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purchased and distributed annum devices

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in an effort to secretly

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plan and execute their crimes.

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And fat and of distributors.

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Administrators. And agents had so

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much confidence seat and secrecy of

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their devices that they openly marketed

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them to other potential users as

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designed by criminals. For.

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Criminals. But. The

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devices. Were. Actually operated by

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the F B I. The.

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Worldwide implications of this. That's a

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geisha and. Are. Staggering. In.

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Total, the criminal sold more than

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twelve thousand and an encrypted devices

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and services to more than three

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hundred criminal syndicates operating in over

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a hundred different countries. This.

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Was an unprecedented operation in terms

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of it's massive scale innovative strategy.

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International coordination and investigative

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achievement. Operation Trojan

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Shield has shattered any confidence

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criminals may have to the

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use of harden encrypted devices.

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Saturday any confidence and criminals may have

1:04:34

in the use of encrypted devices. Are

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nicer. This is a good take because.

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What? About me. Who. To wants

1:04:43

a hardened encrypted device

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for you know, privacy

1:04:47

and security. Yes, your

1:04:50

ordinary person. And you're trying

1:04:52

to figure out where an app is Mrs.

1:04:54

Smith or know it can be really, really

1:04:56

hostile. Yes, you look at the owners like

1:04:58

all other sources saying and Skyn I may

1:05:00

be some researchers dig through the codes or

1:05:02

whatever it is birth. Even beyond

1:05:04

that lucky even beyond looking for specific

1:05:07

answers is so that we know the

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sp eyes. prepared to do it now,

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which changes the conversation. Someone.

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Even asked the F B I asked a

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press briefing about this. Is

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something reckless and it would

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get. So. Who.

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Knows frame. This will

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lead lead all of our armed

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criminals guessing of what company out

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there is actually a true secure

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company and which is run by

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potentially the government so we obviously

1:05:36

have the technical technical capability ah

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and obviously the international. Partners or

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to work these types of cases in

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the future. I. Basically believe

1:05:45

the Spr is absolutely exploring more

1:05:47

assists to get some of the

1:05:50

information the books are you snuck

1:05:52

into a law enforcement or be

1:05:54

conference in Vancouver where to with

1:05:56

the agents were talking and towards

1:05:58

the end of that hawk one

1:06:00

of them fed. They look forward

1:06:02

to like what the next version

1:06:04

of operation Frozen Sales which the

1:06:07

a normal operations looks like it's

1:06:09

that's not an agency saying okay

1:06:11

job well done this will go

1:06:13

home Doesn't agency looking for an

1:06:15

even bigger thing to do next

1:06:17

and as well as an arm

1:06:19

that was the sky hack that

1:06:21

was the and protests hacked as

1:06:24

well Absolutely law enforcement are continuing

1:06:26

to push down the through some

1:06:28

in some is this police. Officers

1:06:30

I spoke to told me that the Dutch

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authorities told meets we're doing this right now.

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Saying. Stasis. While I'm jealous of so

1:06:37

much, you sneak it in law enforcement

1:06:39

officers to get the stories. We skipped

1:06:41

over so much of the book I

1:06:43

purposely left out some of my favorite

1:06:45

parts of the Baptiste. the you can

1:06:47

enjoy a stealth. This story goes deeper

1:06:49

and deeper and deeper and so used

1:06:51

to Do yourself a favor and go

1:06:54

read: Dark Wire by Joseph Cox. A

1:07:06

big thank you to Joseph Tax or

1:07:08

sang the starting with as you find

1:07:10

the link those books dark Wire in

1:07:12

the show notes and sense. Highly recommended.

1:07:14

This episode is created by mean the

1:07:16

bit humbler Zachary Cider are editor is

1:07:18

the silicon sorcerers has done mixing is

1:07:20

done by proximity sanner. Intro music is

1:07:22

done by the Mysteries Break Master Cylinder.

1:07:24

One time I went into a client's

1:07:26

data center to do some work on

1:07:28

their servers and I found a computer

1:07:30

that was so old it's Ip address

1:07:32

was one. The number

1:07:34

one. This is

1:07:36

Dark Net Diaries.