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1:02

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1:05

Public service should be about serving the public.

1:07

Not. Serving oneself And I think that's part of what

1:10

we need to bring back to American politics. Good

1:41

afternoon Michael malice year let that be are

1:43

working for the next hour we have with

1:45

us. a very special returning guess that make

1:47

Ramaswamy they they called me up earlier this

1:49

week. He goes Michael. I. Wanna be

1:51

on your show? I blew it with the campaign

1:53

on the Total Loser. He was crying there was

1:55

a tear down his face it was like a

1:57

p a sad for later. I got the bake.

2:00

You were the big winner of 2024. And

2:03

he goes, how? I go, look,

2:05

you out competed Mike Pence, former

2:07

vice president, governor of Indiana, you

2:10

out competed Tim Scott, first black

2:12

Republican Senator from the South in

2:14

contemporary times, a

2:16

fundraising powerhouse. You out competed

2:18

Republican heavyweights like Chris Christie,

2:21

and you out competed Doug. And he

2:23

goes, Doug, what do you mean Doug? I go, you

2:26

had no name recognition and

2:28

some money. Doug's a billionaire. Doug's

2:31

a sitting governor and no one knows

2:33

who Doug is, but everyone knows the name Vivek

2:35

Ramaswami in the Republican party and you go, please,

2:37

can I come on your show? And I go,

2:39

of course, this is a show for

2:41

winners. If it was a show for losers, it'd be

2:43

called the Tom Wood show. So

2:45

welcome back. And what

2:48

I want to ask you about, and please

2:50

get into some detail. The

2:52

fact that you went from zero

2:54

name recognition, a name, no one

2:56

can dispel to a powerhouse

2:59

in the Republican party, uh,

3:01

did not happen by accident. So

3:03

I would love to hear what

3:06

decisions you and your campaign made

3:08

that took you from zero to

3:10

being on the shortlist. Rumors has

3:12

it as a VP nominee. Well,

3:16

first of all, your introduction is hilarious, man. And I

3:18

don't know if you have a background instead of comedy,

3:20

but, uh, but you might have a future. So give

3:22

that a shot. I think, uh,

3:24

look, I think the decision, you could call

3:26

it that, that I approached the campaign with

3:28

was I didn't even think people were hungry

3:30

for this. But I think

3:32

that it actually really played out is

3:34

being completely unfiltered over the course of

3:37

the campaign. And that comes with risk,

3:39

right? But at the beginning of the

3:41

campaign, that was purely, you know,

3:43

there's, there's, you know, not really much

3:45

risk and purely only reward. And as

3:47

the campaign progressed, it ended up being an increasingly

3:50

risky strategy that got me into some, you

3:53

know, I would say hot water with the

3:55

establishment and effectively cut off the donor mega

3:58

donor pipes, you know, for much of the.

4:00

Republican establishment later in the campaign. So

4:02

for the later phase of the campaign,

4:04

we could debate its effectiveness. But it

4:06

was the strategy I stuck through from

4:08

the start to the very finish was being

4:11

completely unshackled in sharing what I actually

4:13

believe. And I know that's

4:15

a novel notion in American politics. But the

4:17

fact that it's a novel notion is

4:20

what made it the wide open lane that was

4:22

wide open to occupy. There's this thing

4:25

they call the Overton window, the window

4:27

of acceptable bounds of what you

4:29

can say. And that's actually quite

4:31

narrow in the realm of American politics. And

4:34

so the heart of my strategy was

4:36

run a truck through that Overton window

4:38

with my actual beliefs, take the

4:40

bed that would actually take me to the maximum

4:42

of what my success potential was in this campaign,

4:44

my assumption and hope was that was to be

4:46

the next president didn't play out

4:48

exactly that way. But I think it was nonetheless

4:51

a successful campaign, and hopefully one that

4:53

has a positive impact on the country. And that's the way

4:55

we did it. You had a

4:57

positive impact the Republican Party already and I can

4:59

give you one concrete example. I

5:02

think that Lane you're speaking of didn't exist

5:04

10 years ago because or maybe 15, because it's

5:07

a function of social media. 15 years

5:09

ago, if you're this loud mouth brash

5:11

candidate, people at home

5:13

would see you filtered through CBS, ABC, NBC

5:16

News, say we take the sound bite.

5:19

And then the anchor would immediately say,

5:21

this is controversial. This guy's, you know,

5:23

obnoxious or say some kind of pejorative

5:26

comment immediately. So everyone at

5:28

home is going to read it through the

5:30

filter of the corporate media. Thanks to social

5:32

media. Now, you could do podcasts, you could

5:34

speak at length, you can address the reporters

5:36

and do an end run around them. And

5:38

I think that gave you a place to

5:40

speak your mind without having it be filtered

5:42

through, you know, what you

5:45

and I both agree on is a very corrupt media

5:47

establishment. You're right. And now

5:49

there's an interesting dynamic there if we go one

5:51

layer deeper there, Michael, which is that the

5:55

legacy media hates the existence of

5:57

this alternative end around. And

5:59

so I actually. became something of

6:02

a chess piece in a battle between those

6:04

two media institutions. Okay, so here's what would

6:07

happen is I did probably

6:09

more podcasts and long form interviews than

6:11

probably all presidential candidates in history combined.

6:14

Okay, now that lends itself to saying

6:16

some things in the context of a one hour

6:18

discussion like you and I are having or even

6:20

a two hour discussion in some cases that

6:23

come with context. The legacy

6:25

media then made a profession out of airlifting things

6:27

that I would say in forums like this one,

6:30

putting that into their two minute retrofitted

6:32

context purposefully to create an

6:34

even more unfavorable depiction than the one

6:36

that they were already portraying. And so

6:38

that ended up being a game, sort

6:41

of a repeated game that was

6:43

almost in the campaign would seem like

6:45

it was about me, but I think it wasn't actually. It

6:48

was actually a game about what mode politicians

6:50

in the future would take in

6:52

accessing their voters. And what legacy media does

6:54

is they create a punishment

6:56

for candidates who choose to opt into forums

6:59

like this one. And so if they see

7:01

candidate who is actually punished for showing up

7:03

in a long form interview in

7:05

a way that real human beings might talk to each other,

7:07

but then to take them out of context that

7:10

actually explains why countless of those

7:12

other candidates didn't actually

7:15

avail themselves of forums like this one. And so

7:17

it was this repeated game theory that's pretty interesting.

7:19

So over the course of the next 10 years,

7:21

I have no doubt, let's call it

7:23

10 to 20 years. It may happen slower than we expect

7:26

that historical legacy corporate media is going to be

7:28

irrelevant and out the window. But

7:31

in this transitional phase, we're in an interesting

7:33

period where most of the GOP primary electorate,

7:35

the primary electorate tends to

7:38

skew older actually. And

7:40

so there's a disproportionate impact of the

7:42

GOP primary electorate on choosing the next

7:44

president, even relative to the

7:48

cultural influence of legacy versus

7:50

new media on the broader

7:52

population at large. And

7:54

so that was one of the more interesting dynamics in

7:56

this GOP primary is that even though I was really

7:58

reaching more people. human beings across

8:00

the United States via digital media, social

8:03

media, et cetera. And that

8:05

created, I think, a change in the cultural

8:07

tenor of the country's political

8:09

discourse as it relates

8:11

to the GOP primary, it's still

8:13

disproportionately via traditional print

8:15

and especially traditional cable media,

8:18

which is the game that certain other candidates mastered

8:20

playing better than I did. There

8:22

was one moment which I thought was

8:24

you hitting a home run, which exemplified

8:26

this perfectly, and I was delighted to

8:28

see it. There are questions people

8:31

ask you, which are legitimate questions, what your stance

8:33

on abortion, immigration, you know, these are issues that

8:35

every candidate has to grapple with. But then there

8:37

are gotcha questions, which are asked in completely bad

8:39

faith and are there to create a stand by

8:41

to make you look bad. So if I sit

8:43

here and ask you, oh, are you in favor

8:45

of people named the vague giving up the heroin

8:47

habit? That's not a legitimate question. That's me trying

8:49

to put oppression in someone's mind. So

8:51

you being Indian, when they're asking you,

8:54

do you denounce white nationalism? You know,

8:56

it's you laugh, but it's a question

8:58

absurd on its face. But it's meant

9:00

to then create the sound bite that

9:02

you refuse to do that. But the

9:04

fact is, thanks to social media, when

9:07

you put that reporter on blast in

9:09

her face, that went much wider than

9:11

the hatchet piece that she was trying to set you up

9:14

for. Can you walk us through that moment? Because I thought

9:16

I was just one of the great moments of the campaign.

9:19

Yeah, I appreciate it. We had many like that over the

9:21

course of the last year, but this was in the late

9:23

phase. So Steve King, a congressman

9:25

in Iowa, had just endorsed me. And that was

9:27

a bit of news because he was widely expected

9:29

to endorse Trump. This is in the run up

9:31

to the Iowa caucus. He was

9:34

in favor of a border wall before most of

9:36

the Republican Party was even talking about a border

9:38

wall, things like this. OK. And he was denounced

9:40

as racist. And that's a whole

9:42

separate chapter of a guy who is unfairly

9:44

tarred. Actually, people who had the

9:46

financial interest to get him out of office, but

9:48

used a lot of this fake reporting about what

9:50

he had said to tar him. So years ago,

9:53

that's Steve King. He came out

9:55

anyway, and he endorsed me. And in the wake

9:57

of that, there were these demands because he was

9:59

denounced. as a white supremacist

10:02

to ask me whether even in the face

10:04

of Steve King's endorsement I would

10:06

denounce white supremacy. And the thing

10:08

I asked the media to do was define for me

10:11

what white supremacy is. And once you define

10:13

for me what it is, I can tell you whether or not I denounce it. Because

10:15

the last time I checked, it turns

10:18

out you have even the Smithsonian Institute

10:20

or other organizations that have defined white

10:22

supremacists including concepts like being on time,

10:25

punctuality, the written word, mathematics. And so if

10:28

those things are encompassed in the realm of

10:30

white supremacy, then no, I'm not denouncing being

10:32

on time or the written word. No, if

10:34

you're going to call those vestiges of white

10:37

supremacy, then the term white supremacy has lost

10:39

its meaning. And really I

10:41

turned on her head, and I forget what

10:43

that specific exchange was, but there was a

10:45

series of reporter inquiries. I challenged them to

10:47

define white supremacy for me so

10:49

that I could respond to whether or not I could actually denounce the

10:51

thing they described, and they just had nothing more than a blank stare.

10:55

None of them could actually define what white

10:57

supremacy actually was, as distinct from

10:59

invidious discrimination on the basis of race. If

11:02

I tell you that you don't have an opportunity, I'm going

11:04

to turn you away from a polling booth at the ballot

11:06

box, or I'm going to turn you away from

11:08

some opportunity to get ahead on the basis of

11:10

your skin color, that's invidious discrimination

11:12

on the basis of race. I

11:15

condemn that. The irony is we are seeing

11:17

some of that crop up in the United States, but in

11:19

a very different form against certain races that

11:21

are different than the races against which they are. Invidious

11:24

racism was historically practiced, but

11:27

that's invidious racism, and I actually condemn it no matter what

11:29

form it takes. But if you

11:31

tell me as distinct from that what's white supremacy, tell me

11:33

what it is so I can let you

11:35

know whether I denounce it. We've got nothing other than silence

11:37

in response. And so what I – in

11:39

the cases that Washington Post reporter did was I predicted.

11:41

I told her, I know what your headline is going

11:44

to be. I said that tomorrow the headline that you're

11:46

going to write in this dishonest piece is going to

11:48

say that Vivek Ramaswamy, after endorsement from Steve King, refuses

11:50

to denounce white supremacy. Now

11:53

thankfully that was caught on camera, and social

11:55

media provided I think an ample opportunity for

11:57

tens of millions of people to see it.

12:00

The irony there was a lack of self-awareness of

12:02

that very reporter where 48 hours

12:04

later, she came out nonetheless in

12:06

the Washington Post with exactly the headline as

12:08

well as the lead to her story that

12:10

I had predicted, but at least at that

12:13

point people had been preconditioned to

12:15

understand what they were actually reading because the other

12:17

thing had gone megaviral in the last 48 hours.

12:19

It still didn't stop her from doing exactly what

12:21

her muscle memory taught her to do.

12:24

And so that's one of my lessons from the campaign and

12:26

one of the things that will inform how I approach whatever

12:28

I do in the future is whenever

12:31

you see a problem, a lurking problem

12:33

that other people don't see, the

12:35

best thing you can do is name it. Name

12:38

it unsparingly. Unsparingly expose that

12:41

problem. And half the time the

12:43

problem itself automatically disappears lurking back

12:45

in the shadows like a cockroach

12:48

running for shade from the sunlight.

12:50

If you're actually having somebody who has

12:53

the ability to unsparingly with a spine

12:55

in an uninhibited way, name

12:57

the problem. And I think that's something

12:59

that conservatives mostly have not been very good at,

13:02

professional politicians are awful at, but it's

13:04

one of the things I endeavored to do with this

13:06

campaign with respect to, you can just

13:08

go down the list, how our money is being

13:10

spent in Ukraine, the truth of what happened on

13:12

January 6th, the truth of where the COVID pandemic

13:14

actually began. You could go straight

13:17

down the list of actually government actors using

13:19

tech companies to do their dirty work through

13:21

the back door, the corruption in the Republican

13:23

Party and the Ronna McDaniel's failed leadership, Nikki

13:25

Haley or the military industrial complex's exploitation of

13:28

their own personal incentives to keep the war

13:30

machine humming at the expense of everyday Americans,

13:32

both taxpayers and people who serve on the

13:34

front lines, whatever the specific

13:36

topic area was, and those are just a subset

13:38

of those that I touched in the campaign,

13:41

name the problem, name it

13:44

unsparingly, and then it becomes a

13:46

lot more difficult for the people

13:48

perpetuating their plot to actually see

13:50

it through. And I think that's

13:52

something that we as a movement would probably

13:54

do a better job of in the future if we

13:56

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15:10

segue into to such problems and I

15:13

I would love to discuss them. I

15:15

hung out last night was by Weinstein

15:17

who's a fan of yours. And

15:20

a got him a little

15:22

scared because the possibility that

15:24

Joe Biden won't be the

15:26

nominee in November is. Fairly.

15:29

High. It's certainly not a given that he will

15:31

be the nominee and there's a lot of buzz

15:33

about who the replacing would be and I told

15:35

him and I would love to hear your thoughts

15:38

on this that their plan b they're smart move

15:40

would be Hillary. She's. Gollum. she's

15:42

had the ring. she's not going to give up

15:44

on the ring. She got millions more votes for

15:46

Trump. it's been trumpets when he sixteen which might

15:48

not work for the electoral college, but assured good

15:51

starting point in terms of getting out the vote.

15:53

No one in the party has the capacity to

15:55

stop her because they be scared of her. She.

15:58

wouldn't have to run on any kind of

16:02

four years of mismanagement, Newsom is VP that

16:04

sets them up to be next and then

16:06

you don't have to defend California. And

16:09

she's recently publicly been taking shots

16:12

at President Biden, which is somewhat out

16:14

of character when the argument's supposed to

16:16

be let's fall in line. I would love

16:18

to hear your thoughts on that possibility. So

16:21

look, I think next to Michelle Obama, that one

16:24

is not implausible actually. And the reason why,

16:26

so let's get to the dynamic of what's

16:29

stopped them from sidelining Biden so far.

16:32

State of play right now, the managerial

16:34

class that wields Biden as a puppet

16:37

has lost its use for their puppet. Yes.

16:40

For a while, actually his cognitive deficits, they were

16:42

not a bug, they were actually a

16:44

feature, right? It lends himself to be more

16:46

effectively controlled. But

16:48

when the puppet itself literally starts malfunctioning as

16:51

poorly as the current puppet is functioning, then

16:53

it's time for a system overload or actually just

16:55

buying a new instrument. And

16:58

so that's where we are in the phase of this. And so

17:00

I've said actually since, I actually said

17:02

that the third Republican debate will over whatever, six months

17:04

ago or so, where I made clear what I said

17:06

in my closing statement, those closing statements and debates are

17:09

such a waste of time that I just decided to

17:11

use it for something more productive to call

17:13

in the Democratic party to be honest about who their nominee is

17:15

actually gonna be. Because I think part of the game they're

17:18

playing now is almost

17:20

lulling Republicans into a sense

17:22

of complacency, when in fact

17:24

the real game has not even begun, right?

17:26

So we think of ourselves as being in the third

17:29

inning of some sort of game that's soon to be

17:31

the fourth inning of the game, that's not even the

17:33

game. The real ball game, I worry,

17:36

has not even actually begun. The

17:39

main thing that stopped the Democrats from doing it, some

17:41

of this is, I would say,

17:43

scienter, is artfulness, is willful deceit. They

17:45

wanna wait a little bit, let

17:48

the trials progress, let the election cycle

17:50

mature, let the feigned retreat work, lead

17:52

them a little further in that direction.

17:56

But one of the things that constrains them from going

17:58

in the other direction anyway is this problem self-creating. the

18:00

problem they have. And it

18:02

is a problem known as Kamala Harris. So

18:04

that problem is that if

18:06

you sideline Biden, but

18:09

you don't replace him with the black

18:11

woman whose entire justification for occupying the

18:14

position she occupies is indeed

18:16

being those two things, a black woman. And

18:19

yet you put somebody in the front of

18:21

that ticket who is, let's say like a

18:23

Gavin Newsom, a white man, that

18:26

fails their own purity test.

18:28

And in that sense, might

18:30

have been the smartest thing Biden's ever done. And

18:32

by Biden, I don't mean Joe Biden, but Jill

18:34

Biden, who I think is actually probably

18:36

closer to in control than Joe Biden, one of

18:38

the smartest thing that that Biden actually did was

18:40

selecting, helping select Kamala Harris as the VP, because

18:43

it was an insurance policy against the puppet masters

18:45

moving their puppet Biden, Joe Biden out of the

18:47

way. And so they have a

18:49

Kamala Harris problem. Whoever they put

18:51

out in front has to at least help

18:53

solve their Kamala Harris problem. Criteria number one

18:55

is that being a woman

18:58

helps immensely. And criteria number two is

19:00

having a shade of melanin that is the generally

19:02

more acceptable shade of melanin in the Democratic Party

19:04

today is an additional feature that they would do

19:06

as a nice to have. Michelle Obama has both.

19:09

Now, if there are skeletons in that closet

19:11

or an utter refusal, my general view is

19:13

I don't think that Michelle Obama has a say in the

19:15

matter. I think it's going to be with managerial machine decides

19:17

for her. But short of her, I do

19:20

think that it's not crazy to think of a Hillary Clinton

19:22

like figure, because at least she's a woman and owned that

19:24

lane as, you know,

19:26

as effectively as any identitarian

19:29

can in the in the game of identity

19:31

politics. And then maybe supplement that

19:33

with something like a gay man, a Pete

19:35

Buttigieg. Yeah, yeah. You know, you can think

19:37

about the governor of Colorado, who's at least

19:39

widely viewed as a moderate, that could very

19:42

plausibly be a ticket. And so

19:44

this idea that it's going to be running

19:46

against Joe and Kamala ends up being a

19:49

total feigned retreat. And I

19:51

Think it's really important for Republicans to be well

19:53

ahead of that curve skate to where the puck

19:55

is going. Yes, own whatever message we're going to

19:57

have to own in order to defeat. You

20:00

know, Michelle Obama, Pete Budaj Edge, or.

20:03

Hillary. Clinton, people to judge or Hillary

20:05

Clinton? you know, Governor of Colorado or

20:07

whatever. That's what I think it's going

20:09

to take. In. Order to really

20:11

prepare for success this year. I think

20:13

this has to be. Not. A

20:15

small margin victory and you seem to

20:17

be a landslide of. Reagan. Nineteen

20:19

Eighty Four Proportion and Unknown do everything in my

20:22

power to make sure that happens. But. The

20:24

first way we do it. Is to.

20:26

Again, name the problem. Now.

20:29

The more we talk about this, the irony

20:31

is that think it has a Heisenberg kind

20:33

of affect your the we actually observe that

20:35

lurking phenomenon. The more we actually

20:37

affected and the less likely to to play out

20:39

that I've been. as unsparing

20:41

in my. Attempts

20:44

to expose at least the collective incentives that

20:46

create this possibility. And so you know we

20:48

were of the Eisenberg dilemma. Roughly

20:50

speaking, the you keep You know you

20:53

can't observe a phenomenal without actually affecting

20:55

it. Great. We. Can use that. In

20:57

our power here by repeatedly observing it

20:59

with hopeful sufficient quantity that the other

21:01

side has to then go in a

21:03

different direction like a cockroach running that

21:06

the dark. And. So that's what I

21:08

would hope to see happen here, but sort of that.

21:10

If the game continues to just be played

21:12

in our own merry little fantasy land. Is.

21:14

Actually biden. It's going to be

21:17

somebody else. probably the spring made even early in

21:19

the summer. As. Late as they can completely

21:21

change the game and that's really when the new start

21:23

line would begin. Unless. We

21:25

expose this sufficiently. That. It

21:27

changes their incentive structure to no longer wanted to the.

21:30

Yeah. The decide Republican idea that the

21:32

Democratic party or all idiots is completely

21:34

crazy To me. there's no without was

21:36

no read. Raven Twenty Twenty Two Bidens

21:38

in the Oval office right now So

21:40

you might consider these people's views moronic

21:42

and yard and will give you know

21:44

man or woman they're doing something right

21:46

because they have a significant amount of

21:48

power and as something that has to

21:51

be grappled with on the other side

21:53

the aisle my friend just see a.

21:55

Paraphrase. Something you said and I don't

21:57

want to to be game of telephone but his

21:59

point. Or his perception was

22:01

that Nikki Haley is running.

22:04

Or as of the votes don't matter

22:07

because on some level the sixes in

22:09

for exists. Any politician has an ego.

22:11

She lost to none of the above.

22:14

She's about to get destroyed in her

22:16

home state of South Carolina or it

22:18

later the couple of weeks and yet

22:20

she still plugging along I in the

22:22

face of everything. I would love to

22:24

hear your thoughts on what the you

22:26

know behind the scenes stuff is going

22:29

on with with the Or Gov. Haley.

22:31

Will. Look, as I've been saying this since late

22:34

last year, that's made many even in our

22:36

own America First movement, upset at first when

22:38

I said it. But I. It. Is

22:40

one of those situations that the more you expose

22:42

it. The less likely it is to app and

22:44

that's why I've been talking about it as much as I can.

22:46

Which. Is that I think that

22:49

there is effectively a game plan

22:51

that the establishment both parties as,

22:53

but particularly the establishment the Republican

22:55

Party. To have narrowed this down to

22:57

a two horse race between Donald Trump and a

22:59

puppet who they can control in the scared as

23:01

Nikki Haley. Eliminate from from

23:04

contention one way or another. And.

23:06

Then truck their puppet who they can control in

23:08

the White House. I think that's a game they've

23:10

been trying to play for a long time. This is part of

23:12

why I. Dropped out immediately after I got about

23:14

eight percent of the vote. In Iowa I was about

23:16

to get about a present. The New Hampshire. I

23:19

didn't want New Hampshire to be anything other

23:21

than a decisive victory. To. Effectively put

23:23

an end to this primary which at a

23:25

New Hampshire basically dead. And so

23:27

thankfully I think this risk has now

23:30

gone down. But if you wanna with the

23:32

intentions are there's no better way to know it then to

23:34

see that. Nikki Haley did not

23:36

even try to compete. For

23:38

any delegates in Nevada, some people

23:41

understand that Nevada has a caucus.

23:43

A hundred percent of the delegates that come

23:45

from the Nevada Geo Be Caucus go the

23:47

ones who get the delegates in deciding who

23:49

ultimately when the Geo Be national primary. Rhonda.

23:52

Sanders, myself, Donald Trump. We were all

23:54

competing in the caucus. Now. in

23:56

an effort to send us an eye to dropped out. We.

23:59

dropped out we want to me caucus, but we

24:01

were all registered for the Nevada caucus because

24:03

that's how you would ultimately win the GOP

24:06

primaries by collecting delegates. Nikki

24:08

Haley, bizarrely, did not

24:10

even participate in the Nevada

24:12

GOP caucus. So she's not even competing for delegates.

24:15

So she's not competing for delegates. It's

24:18

so obvious, she's going to collect so few delegates

24:20

through this process. But she and the people backing

24:23

her more importantly, are spending 10s, hundreds

24:26

of millions of dollars to keep her

24:28

in the race. What

24:30

exactly do you think their game plan is? Now, scratch the surface

24:32

a little bit more. What do you see? Many

24:35

of the very actors who are

24:37

paying for the lawsuits against Trump,

24:40

paying for the efforts to keep Donald Trump

24:42

off the ballot, the likes of

24:44

Reed Hoffman, the CEO of LinkedIn, George

24:47

Soros Jr. effectively for the Democratic Party. Those

24:51

people, who are they backing for US President? It's

24:53

not Joe Biden. It's actually

24:55

been Nikki Haley. And to

24:57

the very people paying to eliminate Donald Trump

24:59

from the ballot, are the ones

25:01

who are propping up Nikki Haley, despite the

25:03

fact that she is not remotely even collecting or

25:05

even attempting to collect delegates, which is the way

25:07

you win through the front door of Republican primary,

25:10

what do you think they're playing for? They're

25:12

absolutely playing for exactly what I said, four or

25:15

five months ago, they want to narrow this to a

25:17

two horse race between Donald Trump and a puppet who

25:19

they can control. The first instance that puppets name was

25:22

Nikki Haley. And the beauty is they claim to even

25:24

get to be not get to claim to be nonpartisan

25:26

about it. They claim to be,

25:28

you know, supporting a woman in the Republican

25:30

Party. And yet, they're not even

25:32

competing by winning through the front door. Now,

25:35

folks like myself and others, and Tucker has pointed this

25:37

out, a couple of others have also pointed this out,

25:39

the more you pointed out, the less plausible

25:41

that then becomes because the game is in

25:43

hiding. So that's why now that the primary

25:45

thankfully is for all intents and purposes over

25:47

as of New Hampshire, and I'm going

25:49

to continue to do my part to make sure that this primary is

25:51

over. Now, I Think

25:54

that game then shifts that uni party establishment

25:56

starts directing its same efforts to okay, we

25:58

couldn't get our puppet or Trojan horse. The

26:00

into the republican party. Let's. Shift our

26:02

efforts to at least get the puppet who

26:04

we can control through the Democratic Party. Biden

26:06

used to be that puppet. the pop. It

26:08

isn't functioning. it's having com system malfunctions. Now.

26:11

Move in a different puppet who they can

26:13

control. Kamala Harris doesn't work because nobody the

26:15

contract he likes are now it of try

26:17

to new puppet instead with Us Michelle Obama,

26:19

Hilary Clipper, somebody else. That's where this game

26:21

moves next. So. I know

26:23

it sounds the under some people

26:25

conspiratorial or whatever. Notices. That

26:27

plane description of the facts. Hiding

26:30

in plain sight, Found. The money with

26:32

start with that. The people who are paying for

26:34

efforts to get Donald Trump off the ballot who

26:36

were the first supporting Make A Hate Group is

26:38

Nikki Haley competing for delegates? Know she's not. You

26:40

know. Been trying to collect delegates in states like

26:42

Nevada. Down from myself, Rhonda

26:44

Santas Yes. All competing to collect delegates

26:47

the game without even competing. Zero delegates

26:49

in Nevada? By design, she

26:51

was even trying to get delegates in Nevada out.

26:53

Anything she's trying to win, it's by eliminating Trump.

26:56

Now. That we've exposed that enough. That's not actually

26:58

going to happen now. Moved to Democratic Party hats

27:00

or this game now plays out next as tried

27:02

their next puppet within the opposition parties. dead. Your

27:05

business men businessmen are going to spend tens

27:07

of millions of dollars without some or away

27:09

there's gonna be some expectation is it's they're

27:11

not patriots and even if they were patriots

27:13

at some point you like a rights you

27:15

know this startups not working. I'm not going

27:17

to for good money after bad to the

27:19

sack of the are supporting money to this

27:22

campaign. Speak to the fact that they have

27:24

some information that the layman does it because

27:26

these people who are very wealthy are not

27:28

all stupid. Even if someone the marks they're

27:30

not all stupid. So they're all investing this

27:32

much money they're expecting some kind of our

27:34

com that is commensurate. With their investment. And.

27:37

It's also good to have a puppet.

27:39

Cool is responsive to young. The.

27:42

Carrots you can dangle money. Kaylee, one of the. And.

27:45

When she left the Un in

27:47

debt. Then. becomes the military

27:49

contractor then joined the board of boeing

27:51

who's the company was backseat scratched for

27:53

years while governor of south carolina makes

27:55

million through all of that through sporting

27:58

speeches not dissimilar hillary clinton Deformed

28:00

actors whose speeches she still hasn't disclosed hasn't

28:02

disclosed her tax returns despite calling on Donald

28:04

Trump to do it when he ran And

28:07

now suddenly multi-millionaire. Well, how do

28:09

these people do it? They cut these guys in on

28:11

the rake and you know for them that's still

28:14

it's almost like the equivalent of It's

28:16

like the you know, you pay the bill at the restaurant and

28:18

there's a small amount that's a tip Okay, tax and tip it's

28:20

like the equivalent of that kind of slippage

28:22

in the process It's a bipartisan affair by

28:24

the way And so they love puppets who

28:27

actually are susceptible to Liking

28:29

money actually the people who are ideological

28:31

people actually even if they have ideologies that you

28:33

agree with or disagree with The people who

28:35

have independent ideologies don't make for good puppets

28:38

because they can't be controlled But

28:40

the people who are actually let's say in love

28:42

with enriching themselves from their time in public service

28:44

They actually make for excellent puppets because at least

28:46

the puppet masters who have billions are happy to

28:48

pay off You know somebody who even only wants

28:50

a mere couple single-digit millions That's

28:53

a small price to pay to know that you can actually

28:55

control and Operate that puppet as long

28:57

as it system malfunction hasn't begun as it has

28:59

in the case of Joe Biden So

29:01

in the case of Biden that's how you get to

29:03

hunter Biden collecting multi-million dollar bribes from places like Ukraine

29:06

To send 200 billion dollars back to Ukraine. You

29:09

got even the likes of Elizabeth Warren We all know what

29:11

her public salary has been for her and her family In

29:14

the low hundreds of thousands of dollars somehow her net

29:16

worth is in the high 60s of millions of dollars

29:18

over her career In public service that

29:20

math doesn't add up Nikki Haley's in

29:22

debt when she leaves her time at the

29:24

UN then ends up a multi-millionaire A few

29:27

years later after starting a military contractor and

29:29

after giving paid speeches to foreign actors that

29:31

math doesn't add up But these

29:33

are exactly the profile of people who make

29:35

the best puppets of all Because

29:37

you know at least they're responsive to money that makes

29:40

the game actually very easy And I

29:42

think it's what we need to change in American politics Public

29:44

service should be about serving the public radical

29:47

idea I know not serving oneself,

29:49

and I think that's part of what we need to

29:51

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Malice. Let's get back

32:16

to the show. Yeah. You mentioned

32:18

Hunter, and it's just fascinating to me

32:20

because the argument is,

32:22

well, this Ukrainian gas company, they can hire

32:24

whoever they want, and that's certainly true. When

32:27

you ask people, why do you think they

32:29

would want to hire Hunter Biden, crackhead

32:32

and Lothario, what does he bring to

32:34

the table? They just stare at

32:36

you blankly or bring up Donald

32:39

Trump Jr. or Eric Trump. What

32:42

other possible reason would there be to hire

32:44

him at that much money other

32:46

than as a backdoor lobbyist? There's

32:49

no other possibility. It's just bizarre to

32:51

me how they can take- It's

32:53

not unique to Democrats. Let's just take the Hunter

32:55

Biden example, which is, look,

32:58

I think that if

33:01

you take the Biden connection off the table,

33:04

I think you could take the average person

33:07

walking the sidewalk of New York City on

33:09

a given day and plop them

33:11

in to be a board member of an energy company

33:14

and get more valuable insight from that

33:16

person than you're going to get from

33:18

Hunter Biden. I don't think that's an exaggeration. I don't

33:20

think it's even close to an exaggeration. I think that

33:22

that's plainly obvious. And

33:25

so if you're going with Hunter Biden, it's for some reason other than his insight.

33:28

And it turns out it's his last name because he's the son of the US

33:30

vice president. And that's

33:32

the very country, and it works, this stuff

33:34

works, how do you know it works? That's the

33:36

very country to whom that president is

33:39

now sending $200 billion of our money without

33:41

once articulating what the justification is for the

33:43

interest of the United States to do so.

33:46

So do you think that the United States would

33:48

be sending $200 billion of money to the

33:50

very country that's one of those corrupt nations

33:52

on planet Earth, but for at

33:55

least the fact that they had paid that same

33:57

president's son $5 million in what appears

33:59

to be a very be a bribe, at

34:01

least lowercase B bribe of the highest

34:03

order. Of course they would be. And

34:05

yet that's exactly the reality that we see playing

34:08

out. Now the irony is many of the very

34:10

people who are the biggest advocates of this war,

34:12

the ones who actually stand to

34:14

benefit from it. This isn't just

34:16

a Democratic Party affair. It exists in

34:18

the Republican Party. This

34:20

kind of corruption is rife, alive and well. One

34:23

of the questions I ask is why should congressmen

34:26

be allowed to trade individual stocks? Most of them

34:28

are in favor of it, right? Well, how

34:30

does that advance the public interest? Why does it advance

34:32

the public interest for congressmen to be able to lobby

34:34

the government? You know, it

34:37

could be in the interest of a congressman to do that, I understand.

34:39

That could be a job attraction. But other

34:41

than that being a job attraction, how does

34:43

it affect the interests of the public for

34:46

that person to actually be able to lobby

34:49

the government? It does. Now, how

34:51

do we drive the change here? I

34:54

believe in using the incentives, even the broken incentives

34:56

of people who have these broken incentives in

34:58

our favor. We do it by at least

35:01

driving changes in the law. So I favor bans on

35:03

trading of individual stocks while you're in congress or while

35:05

you're a regulator. I favor 10 year

35:08

bans on lobbying. I don't think you should be

35:10

able to join the board of a company if

35:12

you're a regulator responsible for regulating that entity. Nobody

35:15

would agree to that right now. But

35:17

if you put that proposal up and then you

35:19

grandfather in the people who are already there and

35:21

say, OK, it doesn't apply to you, but

35:24

it applies to anybody who comes after you,

35:27

then they're going to vote for these policies in

35:29

a heartbeat because they're actually wildly popular policies. And

35:32

so on one hand, it's sad and you have to be a

35:34

little bit cynical to be able to drive positive change. On

35:37

the other hand, let the perfect not be the enemy of the

35:39

good. If we can do that in the long run by

35:41

at least exempting, sad and pathetic as it is,

35:44

the people who are already there who have

35:46

to vote for it in order for that to become the law of

35:48

the land, that's what I favor doing. I

35:50

think that does take an outsider, somebody's a businessman

35:52

who understands how basic human incentives work to be

35:55

able to at least marshal those in our favor

35:57

to make sure public service goes back to being about

35:59

service. of the public rather than the self. But

36:02

that is one of the criteria I'm using, for

36:04

example, in deciding who I'm going to

36:06

endorse. I mean, I

36:08

announced recently, we've been flooded

36:10

with inbound requests for endorsements of this candidate

36:13

or that. And one of the things I've done is I don't

36:15

want to make those decisions in a

36:17

one-off manner shooting from the hip. And most

36:19

of these endorsements are meaningless anyway. So

36:21

I've laid out what I call the

36:23

American truth pledge, but some basic prongs,

36:25

some basic principles, the people

36:27

we elect to run the government should run the

36:29

government. That's number one. Number two

36:32

is the first and sole moral duty

36:34

of every US leader is to US citizens. And number

36:36

three is the public service should be about serving the

36:39

public, not yourself. And the national pride is a worthy

36:41

thing worth of reviving in this country. And then we

36:43

need to fill the void. Great. Those

36:45

are not really Democrat or

36:47

Republican principles in a strict partisan

36:50

sense. They're basic American

36:52

ideals that we fought a revolution to

36:54

secure in this country. And

36:56

that's what I stand for over

36:58

the labels of black or white or

37:00

gay or straight, or even really Democrat

37:03

or Republican when most of

37:05

the problems we face in this country right

37:07

now are sometimes the worst policies that

37:09

we adopt are the bipartisan ones. Just look

37:11

at the current discussion around more

37:13

Ukraine funding. We got to go

37:15

move beyond the labels to actual

37:17

substantive principles that we stand for.

37:20

And that's what I'm trying to do in this next phase. It

37:23

takes a lot for me to get offended and

37:25

something that happened in the last few months regarding

37:27

you did offend me a lot. One of the

37:29

great privileges of great honors of my life was

37:31

when the Babylon B wrote an article about me.

37:34

The headline said anarchist runs for office with

37:36

zero point program. And they wrote

37:38

a piece about you that you know you got a job at

37:40

7-11. You're obviously Indian,

37:43

you're very wealthy. And

37:45

what offended me wasn't the article. I hate

37:48

the idea that caring about bigotry is

37:50

like a leftist concern. If

37:52

I learned that a friend of mine, she goes up to

37:54

a job interview and they take one look at him and

37:56

he's the wrong skin color and they go, we don't want

37:58

your kind here. That is outrageous. Then offensive to me

38:00

doesn't have to be a democrat or a left this

38:03

thing to think that that's beyond the pale so to

38:05

speak. Bad choice of words, perhaps? Point

38:07

being, when that piece was run about

38:10

you babylon be that that you were

38:12

get a job A seven eleven. All

38:14

these white people insinuate themselves. And

38:17

were offended on your behalf. And.

38:19

That to me is a kind of Loki

38:21

racism, this kind of white savior complex that

38:23

like you're. You're a person. You have

38:26

a. Now. See of a megaphone.

38:28

You did a very good job for

38:30

months advocating for yourself instead of looking

38:32

to you and being like does it

38:34

have set you? Are you offended? They

38:36

felt comfortable based be shoving other way.

38:39

And. Being upset for you when you

38:41

weren't upset. I would love to hear

38:43

your perspective on on that piece and

38:46

and or stance people suck on and

38:48

supposedly on your behalf. Yeah, I

38:50

mean minutes. Two different. Different questions

38:52

your what is. Was it a good

38:54

joke? On it's own terms, I like your opening I

38:57

honestly thought was pretty funny. I. Had a very

38:59

short lived Korea and stand up comedy myself. I did

39:01

about ten shows a New York City before I decided.

39:03

That the in I was never going to be

39:05

the best itself as it moved on a new

39:07

thing sir just as the realm of like was

39:09

at the funniest thing the Babylon Be is written

39:12

at and Syndicate was like that. Funny as a

39:14

former what he was the I was what it

39:16

wasn't that glover you and with me know if

39:18

you put not daily content. At. Some days

39:20

you get a big the bottom of the barrel so there's

39:22

that sort of one access. Monastic. A

39:24

different kind of criticism. Was. An offensive

39:26

no, actually what they're making fun of.

39:28

One the leftists who actually get overly

39:30

offended at pretty much it almost hunger

39:33

to be offended that needs to be

39:35

satiated every day. and we can fall

39:37

into that trap. And. So I

39:39

think I can remember what I said afterwards,

39:41

but I wanted to make clear I tweeted

39:43

something. You. Ceremonial. not again to patchy. I

39:45

yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah, you

39:48

remember better than I do. I wanted to. actually.

39:50

ada. Like as I ever the

39:52

joke was like mediocre at best as a much

39:54

better counting coming up in the Babylon be than

39:56

that I've actually great whatever the bachelor be The

39:58

last week. Was. What have they stated

40:01

the truth? Man who is

40:03

deemed too senile to stand trial is

40:05

deemed fit to run the United States of America,

40:07

which is exactly hilarious, not because

40:09

it's false, but because it's true. That's great

40:12

work from the Babylon B, hilarious. Mine was

40:14

like, not that, the one about me was

40:16

not that funny, but I

40:18

felt it was important to nonetheless make light of

40:20

it and maybe say something a little funnier than

40:23

what they put up, but also

40:25

as a way of letting people

40:27

know that we got to move

40:29

on from this hunger to be

40:31

offended. And we're calling it hungry

40:33

for something. So we might as well look inside

40:35

and figure out what it is we're actually hungry

40:37

for, rather than satisfying that

40:40

hunger by the experience the serotonin hit

40:42

or whatever that we get from that

40:44

sanctimony of being offended. But

40:46

I think that that's an interesting entry

40:48

ramp into talking about what

40:50

it is that we're hungry for. I

40:52

do think we're lost right now. All

40:55

of us in some sense as a nation, as a people, we're

40:58

lost, starved for some sense

41:00

of purpose and meaning

41:02

and identity at

41:05

a time in our history when the

41:07

things that used to fill that void,

41:11

you could fill in the blank, patriotism,

41:13

belief in your country, belief

41:16

in God, hard work, family,

41:19

self-confidence, whatever it is, those things

41:21

have disappeared. And so that's

41:24

what I think is more interesting about what's going

41:26

on in the country is that we are all

41:28

starved for a sense of direction that

41:31

we're lacking. I think we conservatives,

41:34

people like myself, we love being

41:36

capitalists, individualists, successful, but we

41:38

also hunger to be part of

41:41

something bigger than ourselves. And

41:44

yet right now we can't even answer what

41:46

it means to be an American. And I

41:49

think it's a fixable problem, but I think that's the deeper

41:51

issue of what's going on in the country. And so I

41:54

guess the long way of saying Michael Is that

41:56

you had to get super lame when people are

41:58

just offended by any type of humor? That necessarily....

42:00

the has to bar borrow something that's a little

42:02

bit spicy or else it's not going to be

42:04

funny. But I also don't want

42:06

to form the trap of. Getting.

42:09

Too worked up about the people who are

42:11

actually being offended. Reverses getting to the root

42:14

cause of what the hell's actually go and

42:16

on, which is the steeper vacuum that I

42:18

think we need to fill and so. That's.

42:21

Certainly where my focus is. It's why

42:23

ran for president. I. Believe.

42:26

That every one of us has a role to play.

42:28

I was trying to play mine. I thought I could

42:30

have most effectively than it is the next President. But.

42:32

Regardless, the beauty of this country, that's up

42:34

to the people of this country and I'm

42:36

all in for from be in next president,

42:39

but I'm still looking at how I can

42:41

next most effectively still have that impact of

42:43

helping fill that void of national identity in

42:45

this country. and I think that's gonna go

42:47

a long way to making a lot of

42:49

these other. Strains. Superficial

42:51

in a calm woke recall what

42:53

you want behaviors. Melt.

42:56

Away, which is what we really needed

42:58

this country. Politicians.

43:01

Are notoriously different from the cameras vs

43:03

in person or behind the scenes. I

43:05

wanted to just ask your opinion quickly of

43:07

how the other major candidates were like

43:09

in person as opposed to how they

43:11

come off on camera. Sometimes are probably better

43:13

person sometimes the worst. So let's start

43:15

with you know, Mike Pence like how

43:17

was he like in real life as

43:19

opposed to how we see him on Tv.

43:23

So. I. Was I

43:25

would say so far as

43:27

to be shocked that. In.

43:29

His opening gambit in the

43:31

first debate. His sole

43:34

focus was going after me and

43:36

that shocked me because like. Actually,

43:38

in the saloon that I'm sitting in, I

43:40

could literally floppy find it free. If Doug

43:42

somewhere in this room I have a pile

43:44

of these. I mean, the guy was sending

43:46

me like cards like hand written cars for

43:48

years. like for a couple years leading up

43:51

to the presidential election and be like. You.

43:53

know he would know about some detail

43:55

of my wife for my family that

43:57

i can ask them from dinner and

43:59

like is now at once or twice.

44:01

I would get handwritten, personalized, and

44:03

they're not like things that you could have

44:06

written just as you were

44:08

writing to anybody. They were personalized to me

44:11

from him for years. Now, he invited

44:13

me to come to some of his donor events,

44:15

not to donate even, but to speak or to

44:17

actually even be seen there, just to attend. And

44:20

so this guy, when his press

44:22

people started bashing me in the weeks leading up

44:24

to the debate, and so I had these reporters,

44:27

because reporters are their whole separate breed, and

44:29

that's the discussion for later. But they would just sort

44:31

of prop up and try to get reactions from me

44:33

off the record sharing kind of what the color is

44:35

they were hearing from the Pence camp, and everybody

44:38

was saying that he was going to go after me on the debate stage.

44:40

I thought they were nuts. I was like, I don't

44:42

think this guy has it in him. First of all, I didn't

44:44

think he had it in him to go after anybody anyway,

44:47

even if his life depended on it. I didn't think

44:49

that he actually had the opportunity to throw a punch.

44:51

But second of all, he had been, I don't

44:55

want to say like licking my feet, but because

44:57

that sounds offensive, but I think he's probably been doing that to

44:59

a lot of people. But I

45:01

would say being going out of his

45:03

way to be extremely thoughtful over the

45:05

last couple of years. And

45:07

so I couldn't imagine coming after me on the debate stage. But

45:10

in his he did not waste any time in

45:12

that debate where his main focus in that first

45:14

debate was to throw a punch at me.

45:17

And honest to God,

45:19

Mike, my first reaction was, like

45:22

when I saw that happening was like

45:24

a sense of like, I'm proud of you, Mike. Yeah, I

45:26

did not know you had that in you. And I don't

45:28

know whether that

45:32

game across on stage or not. I can't remember how

45:34

I responded. But I remember how I felt. Right,

45:36

which was that the guy hasn't

45:38

actually good for him. I did not think like

45:40

he was he was I got a potted plant

45:43

sitting right next to me here. And you

45:45

know, it turns out he's not a potted plant. He actually

45:47

could he actually could throw a punch. I felt proud of

45:49

him. I can't remember exactly what I said, but I remember

45:52

having some fun with it. But that was maybe in his

45:54

case, what the difference was

45:56

between between backstage, you know,

45:59

offstage reality. versus what we saw

46:01

on stage. What about Ron

46:03

DeSantis? So

46:05

I have gotten to

46:07

know him a little bit in the lead up to

46:09

the presidential race. I will say that

46:11

I think

46:15

he's a guy who actually wants

46:17

to be a good governor. And I think

46:20

that he believes, and I think he's been largely a

46:22

good governor. I think he's a guy who wants to

46:24

execute. I think that he was

46:26

sort of, it's kind of sad forced

46:29

by the system to run. I

46:32

think that's what happened. I don't

46:34

think that left to his own devices. He was

46:36

passionate about running to be the next president of

46:38

the United States. He's passionate about being

46:40

the governor of Florida. He's very proud of what he's accomplished

46:42

there. I think there's a lot of things that he's done

46:44

there that he has good reason to be proud of. But

46:47

it's sort of what happens when somebody's put

46:49

into a position that they weren't organically called

46:51

to, but that the system props them

46:53

up to. And so my sense

46:56

towards him was a sense of sympathy, I

46:58

think, is I think

47:00

that he didn't have to go through or be put through

47:02

what he was put through. I think that

47:05

the system decided that they were going to put him up

47:07

before they chewed him up, spit him out, and decided to

47:09

go for the next puppet, Nikki Haley, who they then

47:11

got behind. And I think it's

47:14

just a sort of a sad feature of American

47:16

politics is what we saw happen there. But I

47:18

do think that Florida is going

47:20

to be better off for having him back as governor. There's

47:23

a reason why Florida and many states pass

47:25

laws that say you cannot actively be a

47:27

governor of a state while running

47:29

for US president. I know what it was

47:31

like. It was all consuming. I mean, I've

47:34

worked hard to build companies and done a

47:36

lot of, I've aimed to take on a lot of

47:38

challenges in my career. But nothing

47:40

even comes close to what this last year looks

47:42

like. I mean, I was all out for a

47:44

good portion of the last six months. I'm talking

47:46

6 AM to 11 PM without exaggeration. I mean,

47:48

that's what the day looks like constantly. Some

47:51

people who may not run

47:53

serious campaigns or whatever who are running for president,

47:55

many of them kind of got out in the

47:57

first eight months. But if you're seriously running

47:59

to be the next president, doing it coming from

48:02

literally 0.0 as a starting point. It's

48:05

the highest mountain to climb. It's 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. constantly. And

48:08

so I understand what that looks like

48:11

for me. You got to be passionate about it. Yeah,

48:13

of course. But if somebody else is just propping you

48:15

up and putting you up, I think it's a

48:17

little bit of a sad state of American

48:19

politics that you had a system that used

48:21

him in the way that they

48:23

did and chewed him up and spit him out

48:26

to double up the irony of

48:28

the whole thing. Folks,

48:30

gold has soared past $2,000 an ounce. The

48:33

wars in Israel and Ukraine, as well as

48:35

rate cuts that are on the table, are

48:37

fueling gold's meteoric rise. Deutsche Bank, UBS, Bank

48:40

of America, JP Morgan, they're all forecasting sizable

48:42

rate cuts in an election year. Jamie

48:44

Dimon of JP Morgan, Larry Fink of BlackRock, they

48:46

point out similarities to the 70s. In 1979, we

48:48

had the Iran hostage crisis, war

48:52

in the Middle East, and major cities in disarray

48:54

and stagflation. Gold went from $158

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an ounce to $74 to $850 an ounce in 1980. Meanwhile,

49:02

our national debt is skyrocketing ever higher.

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There's a direct correlation to the national

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debt and the price of gold. In

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2020, the US debt was $23 trillion

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and gold was $1,500 an ounce. In

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2023, the national debt is $33 trillion and gold is over $2,000

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50:03

Protect your money against

50:09

the Fed and inflation. Some

50:17

time in the early 80s, Ario

50:19

Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced

50:22

middle of a night landing. This is my

50:24

friend Kyle McLaughlin, the star of Twin Peaks.

50:26

And he's telling me about how he discovered

50:29

a real-life Twin Peaks in rural North Carolina,

50:31

not far from where he filmed Blue Velvet.

50:33

What was on the plane was copious amounts of drugs

50:36

coming in from South America. Supposedly

50:38

Pablo Escobar went looking for other spots?

50:40

Quiet, out of the way places to

50:42

bring in his cocaine. My

50:47

name is Joshua Davis and I'm an investigative

50:49

reporter. Kyle and I

50:51

talk all the time about the strange things we

50:53

come across, but nothing was quite as strange as

50:56

what we found in Varnam Town, North Carolina. There's

50:59

crooked cops, brother against brother. Everyone's got

51:01

a story to tell, but does the

51:03

truth even exist? Welcome

51:06

to Varnam Town. Varnam

51:09

Town is available wherever you listen to

51:11

podcasts. Let's

51:15

get back to the show. What about

51:17

Chris Christie and was it accurate that during the

51:19

commercial break he went up to complain to Megyn

51:21

Kelly that you were being mean to him and

51:23

hurting his feelings? I

51:26

didn't overhear that conversation. I'm

51:28

always grounded in fact. I can't tell

51:30

you whether that was. He was complaining about

51:32

something. You could just take a

51:34

look at that, but I did not care to interject

51:37

myself in that. I

51:41

think the thing with Chris Christie is

51:43

it's closer to an actor, actually, is

51:45

what you think. It's a bit of

51:47

a shtick, actually. It's not

51:49

surprising if you actually even just look at the publicly

51:51

available facts. In 2020, he

51:54

was Donald Trump's debate partner. After Donald

51:56

Trump's first term, he's preparing Donald Trump

51:58

by way of debates. In 2020,

52:00

he's licking Donald Trump's feet for

52:04

COVID dollars as a lobbyist. First

52:06

of all, if the first thing

52:08

you've done after being a public servant is to become

52:10

a lobbyist, you have no business being the president of

52:12

the United States. I think it should just be a

52:15

hard and fast rule. I'm not saying that you should

52:17

be in trouble for it. If the rules allow you

52:19

to become a lobbyist after you've been a public servant,

52:21

then I guess you're following the rules. So you're not

52:23

breaking the law. I think it should be illegal, but

52:25

it's not right now. So I'm not saying it is

52:27

something illegal. But I'm saying that

52:29

you did something dishonorable. If the first thing you're

52:31

going to do after becoming a governor is to

52:34

try to cash in as a lobbyist, which

52:36

he did, then I don't think you should be anywhere

52:39

near running for the presidency, but that's also what

52:41

he did. But the irony is he's licking Donald

52:44

Trump's feet, lobbying for COVID aid dollars for his

52:46

pharma clients and other clients in New Jersey, and

52:49

then switches on a dime to this new shtick

52:51

of having literally not like one iota of vision

52:53

for the country. You had no iota of vision

52:55

for the country coming from his mouth. The

52:57

only thing was a little bit of a shtick of like trying

52:59

to interview for

53:02

some sort of third tier commentatorship

53:04

at CNN in the form of

53:06

trite, tired, you know,

53:08

I would say, would

53:11

say, you know, the stuff you would hear on MSNBC

53:13

on a given day regurgitated through Chris Christie's mouth was

53:15

the entirety of his campaign. And so I would say

53:17

it was a more of a trite shtick than anything

53:20

else. I don't think he actually believes it. I

53:22

don't think that he has super

53:24

strong convictions. I think he's a pretty funny guy.

53:27

He might be a fun guy to have dinner with. I think

53:29

I probably would, you know,

53:31

enjoy having a dinner,

53:34

a Mexican dinner with him or something at some point

53:36

as a family. I would probably do

53:38

that. We'd probably joust and I would just recognize

53:40

the whole thing was just a comedy show because

53:43

that's what it was. It wasn't actually anything deeper

53:45

than that. Yeah, he's a prosecutor. And as a

53:47

prosecutor, it's your job to whoever's on the stand.

53:49

You have to make that jury believe that this

53:51

person is the worst human being on Earth and

53:53

cannot be allowed to walk the streets. So part

53:56

of that is performative and being an actor. And

53:59

I think he realized that he. that skill set. So how

54:01

was he going to best use that skill set

54:03

now that he Donald Trump's out of office, he couldn't

54:05

be a lobbyist anymore. He's like, Oh, there's this little

54:07

shtick. I can still play one on TV. And that's

54:10

what he did for a matter of months. And that

54:12

was the long and the short of that. Can you

54:14

can you describe from your perspective, how it felt or

54:16

the look on his face when you looked at him

54:18

and said your idea of foreign policy experience is closed

54:20

down a bridge to New York, New Jersey, while you

54:22

do us a favor, quit the

54:24

race and go have a meal somewhere and get

54:26

off the stage, you know, and you know, I meant

54:29

that in a friendly way. I think that that would

54:31

have been good for everybody. So and look, my rule

54:33

was I didn't attack anybody until they attacked me. Sure.

54:36

And so he came in, he didn't in

54:39

his attacks on me, they were like very

54:41

slapstick, just like name calling. There wasn't much

54:43

humor to it. There wasn't much creativity to

54:46

it. So when he when he tried to

54:48

take a swing, I decided to just swing

54:50

back with the obvious, which is that it

54:52

is true. I mean, the fullest extent of

54:54

his foreign policy experience was trying to close

54:56

that bridge from New Jersey to

54:58

New York. And so I invited him to,

55:01

you know, get the hell out of the

55:03

race and get off the stage and wished him well to you

55:05

know, whatever I said, enjoy a nice meal or whatever it was.

55:07

I think that he pretty much acknowledged

55:09

that that was true about his foreign policy experience.

55:11

He was spouting off about Ukraine. This was right

55:13

after he had jumped in. So what had happened

55:15

on the debate stage was Nikki

55:17

Haley has been one of the chief

55:20

proponents of more funding to

55:22

Ukraine. And over time, you do get to know

55:24

these people. It's clear to me that she, like

55:26

so many of her compatriots, doesn't have

55:28

the first clue of even what she's actually talking

55:30

about, right? Put aside the corruption put aside the

55:32

self interest. And that's a real issue in Nikki

55:35

Haley's case. But put it put all that

55:37

to one side. I don't think

55:39

she actually even understood the history

55:41

of what regions of Ukraine had

55:43

Russian histories versus not had an

55:45

understanding of which parts of Ukraine

55:47

had voted in parliamentary elections, the

55:49

US's role in Ukraine since 2014,

55:51

the recorded Victoria Nuland

55:53

call I don't think Nikki Haley has the first clue about

55:55

any of these things. In fact, if you look at her

55:57

own book, where she was touted as the queen of foreign

55:59

policy. She had no idea what the UN does,

56:01

and she was talking about in her own book how she was

56:03

looking up on Google before she answered back to Donald Trump to

56:06

say yes or not. So I don't think

56:08

that's her fault, but it's a bizarre thing if

56:10

you're making your foreign policy wisdom the

56:12

hallmark of your candidacy. And so I decided to just

56:14

call that out, and people said, oh, weren't you really

56:16

brave for taking that risk? Not really,

56:19

because I was basically 100% certain that

56:21

she wasn't going to know those three provinces in eastern

56:23

Ukraine. And so anyway, I said, look, can

56:25

you even name three of the provinces of eastern Ukraine

56:27

that you want us to be fighting for? And

56:30

she couldn't, and the blank stare on her face told the

56:32

story. So Chris Christie then jumped

56:34

into her defense and then started attacking me

56:37

as I think he's the biggest blowhard in

56:39

America or something like that was

56:41

what he called me. And so I responded to that by

56:43

saying now we have now learned that both

56:45

advocates for more Ukraine funding have no idea

56:47

what three provinces are in eastern Ukraine that

56:49

they want us fighting for. And for Chris's

56:51

part, since we were in a discussion about

56:53

foreign policy, I called out the fact that

56:55

his foreign policy experience was even thinner than

56:57

Nikki's because it consisted of closing that bridge.

56:59

And so I'm not a guy who I

57:01

think that people saw me as pugnacious or

57:03

whatever on the debate stage. I

57:06

don't look around for people to bully. I don't go around

57:08

bullying people. It's not my way, and I wouldn't teach

57:10

my kids to do it either. And people who know

57:12

me and the type of leader I am furthest

57:15

from the way that I would lead this

57:17

country or lead a company or lead any group of people. But

57:20

my rule of thumb is this. If you

57:23

hit me, I will hit you back 10 times harder,

57:25

period. And that's how I would lead

57:27

this country as well. And yes, that's how I

57:29

will raise my kids too. You don't go in

57:31

search of monsters to destroy, but you

57:33

don't let any monster, no matter how large,

57:35

staring you in the face take

57:37

an aim at destroying you either. That's the way I roll.

57:40

You know, you've said a lot of controversial things, but

57:42

I can't believe you used the word thinner in reference

57:44

to Chris Christie. So I think we've reached a new

57:46

kind of level. I got to tell you, so this

57:48

talk you being the VP, this talk you having cabinet

57:51

positions, if I had a genie lamp, I

57:53

would love to see you as head of the FDA because

57:56

you know that industry inside and out. There's

57:59

lots of people. whose lives are ruined because

58:01

how the FDA regulates things as you know, I

58:03

agree with that. I agree with that. But

58:05

where like if I have terminal cancer, and

58:07

I'm like, make me the guinea pig, at

58:09

least I'm going out fighting, we're going to

58:11

get information, I'm going to die anyway. And they're

58:13

like, No, too bad. You

58:15

know that industry so well, you'd

58:17

be so well positioned to immediately

58:21

help the lives of millions of people.

58:23

Is that a position you ever take? You

58:25

know, so I think it's a little narrow. And I

58:27

think that each of us just has to look ourselves

58:30

in the mirror and ask ourselves, how

58:32

are we going to use our own unique

58:35

God given gifts to achieve the maximum of

58:37

our potential. And I think every one of

58:40

us owes it to ourselves to ask our nose to this

58:42

country to ask ourselves that question. Now, I

58:45

know a lot about a lot, a number of these agencies,

58:47

the FDA is one of them. And so

58:49

do I want to play a role in help shaping

58:52

that for the better for this country for

58:54

human health for our economy, for

58:57

respect of our constitutional republic, most of

59:00

those FDA rules that are softly enacted,

59:02

I think are unconstitutional, and we're never

59:04

actually authorized many of those behaviors. Yes,

59:06

I care deeply about that. But

59:09

part of this comes from helping select the

59:11

right kinds of people to occupy, you

59:13

know, various positions in the government as well. And so if

59:15

I'm in a position to do that, I think

59:17

that's something where I might be in

59:19

a better suited role. But but you know, it's not

59:22

about me. And it's not about, you know, any one

59:24

individual, I think it's look, Donald Trump needs to be

59:26

elected as the next president. And I think that a

59:29

properly elected and run

59:31

presidency is won by one word of the

59:33

president is actually calling the shots. And so,

59:36

you know, I've been I've really enjoyed my

59:38

relationship with Donald Trump, especially in recent weeks, even

59:40

after I got out of the race, we've

59:42

had some really substantive and productive conversations about

59:44

the future direction of the country. And

59:46

I think that we can't put the cart before the horse.

59:48

He's got to win this year, he's got

59:50

to win not by a little bit, but by a lot. And

59:53

as I said earlier, in the earlier part of

59:55

our conversation, this is an

59:57

example of the kind of complacency that we can't afford.

1:00:01

Because I don't even think we're at the starting line, the game that

1:00:03

they're going to play. I don't think it's going to

1:00:05

be Biden. We've got to prepare for even,

1:00:07

I think we're still in the preseason, actually.

1:00:10

And so we've got to resist that urge

1:00:12

to say, oh, well, here's exactly how things are going to

1:00:14

go afterwards. And here's this person's position and that person's position.

1:00:17

Forget that. I think we're

1:00:19

a long ways from that. We need to stay

1:00:21

alert to what I think is going to be a

1:00:23

complicated year. I think there's a lot of traps laid

1:00:25

ahead this year that are still lurking. I

1:00:27

think we need to focus on avoiding those traps and

1:00:29

actually achieving success. And then we'll figure out what's next

1:00:31

for all of us after that. Folks,

1:00:33

head on over to malice.locals.com. Vivek will be

1:00:36

taking questions from supporters. Vivek, running out

1:00:38

of time, what has been your favorite part

1:00:40

of this interview? Oh,

1:00:42

this interview? I kind of liked your opening

1:00:44

in the way that we kind of warmed it up because I was having some, you

1:00:46

know, you and I, we had these camera issues. I

1:00:49

was kind of, you know, in a little bit

1:00:51

of superficially irritated head space. We

1:00:53

couldn't get the thing to work. Hopefully it

1:00:55

looked and sounded good, but I hate technical

1:00:57

issues. And, you know, I'm just kind

1:00:59

of winging it right here. But then you kind

1:01:02

of opened that up with, you know, brought me

1:01:04

right back into my head space of

1:01:06

not worrying about camera technology. So that was my favorite

1:01:08

part. You are welcome.

1:01:11

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1:01:42

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