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1:40

Really? Interesting Be roommates with your mother

1:42

as an adult and I had just

1:44

turned thirty I think when I left

1:46

after nine months of like working with

1:48

her on this company and I felt

1:50

real shift our like wow or less

1:52

ship is different now because spending time

1:55

with her just the day to day

1:57

of it and I sing or wins

1:59

or maybe. she was having a good day

2:01

or a bad day. We've established different kinds of

2:03

rules and boundaries. And I think that's

2:05

lovely. It's constantly evolving and I think I'm in

2:07

the process. Welcome

2:11

to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast where

2:13

we explore how the food and culinary

2:15

traditions of our youth shape who

2:17

we become as adults. I'm

2:19

Michelle Norris. My guest today

2:22

is Eric Kim. He skyrocketed to

2:24

food writing fame and acclaim at

2:26

The Food Network and Food52. Eric

2:29

is now a staff writer and SAS

2:31

for the New York Times food section.

2:33

His recent cookbook is called Korean American,

2:35

Food That Tastes Like Home. It's

2:38

a luscious book. And we had it

2:40

with us in studio as we talked

2:42

so we could swoon over how beautiful

2:44

it was together. The photos alone will

2:47

knock you out. And each chapter reads

2:49

almost like memoir. It's not

2:51

surprising that this book became an instant

2:53

New York Times bestseller. Eric dedicated the

2:55

book to his mother, Jean, and the food

2:57

he grew up with. He was raised

2:59

in suburban Atlanta, eating a combination of

3:02

southern food and traditional Korean

3:04

staples like savory kimchi and

3:06

delicately fried fish for Sunday

3:08

supper. Now, remember the subtitle

3:11

for his book, Food That Tastes Like Home?

3:13

Well, the recipes in the book were actually

3:15

developed when Eric was home in his mama's

3:17

kitchen. During the pandemic, Eric

3:19

left New York City and returned to

3:21

Atlanta, living with his family and cooking

3:24

right next to his mother, Jean. Now,

3:27

to some of us, that might sound, shall

3:29

we say, challenging, working

3:31

with your mother day in and day

3:33

out in her space while trying to

3:35

produce your masterpiece. But for Eric Kim,

3:37

the famous food writer, it was a

3:39

productive time. And for Eric Kim, the

3:41

son, it was a healing

3:44

experience. Even

3:48

in the closest families, recognizing

3:51

boundaries can be difficult. And it's

3:53

not just about space or the

3:55

geography of a house. Kids

3:57

want autonomy. Parents want to exercise.

4:00

authority and those two things

4:02

usually collide. Today we hear

4:04

how Eric learned how to break free of

4:06

his parents' expectations and chart his own path,

4:08

including a stint where he ran away from

4:11

home in the family car to go to

4:13

Nashville, we'll learn how he developed a

4:15

greater respect for his mother's kitchen skills

4:17

when he became a food writer, and

4:20

how his journey brought him back to

4:22

Jean's kitchen and all of her refrigerators

4:24

filled to the brim with jars and

4:27

jars of delicious kimchi. So

4:34

hey Eric, Kim, thanks so much for being with us. Thanks

4:36

for having me. It's an honor, truly.

4:38

Well, I am so excited because your

4:40

latest cookbook fell into my hands

4:43

and I have been wanting to talk

4:45

to you about your story in

4:48

part because it's just such a beautiful

4:50

book and I love many other recipes

4:53

and you grabbed me with the introduction, which of

4:55

course is all about your mom. Yeah, thank

4:58

you for saying that. So you know the deal.

5:00

This is a podcast that always begins

5:02

with a simple question. Tell

5:04

me about your mama's kitchen. Take me

5:07

inside her space. Close your eyes, describe

5:10

what the kitchen of your youth

5:13

looked like, smelled like.

5:15

Put me inside that space.

5:18

Well, I didn't

5:20

think to do this before the interview and now I'm like

5:22

closing my eyes and thinking about it. So

5:25

I would say we

5:28

moved a few times, not that many times, but

5:30

every time we moved as you know when I

5:32

was little it would be 10 minutes

5:34

down the block or something and then eventually

5:37

it was like 10 minutes closer to my dad's

5:39

office. And anyway, we were always quite in the

5:41

same area, which meant all the houses kind of

5:43

looked the same for the most part. Each

5:45

house, the garage is always next to the kitchen

5:47

or the garage even opens into the kitchen always,

5:50

which meant the garage was also used as

5:53

a, I don't know, like a little refrigerator

5:55

in the winter. Lots of like

5:57

jars and things like that. So our kitchen kind of starts.

6:00

outside of the kitchen, you know, where the

6:02

garage door is. That's a

6:04

very like suburban Georgia, but I mean, maybe it's

6:06

a suburban American like house design. And

6:08

then you go in and you

6:11

know, I don't know how, but every single house,

6:13

like three or four houses, it's always just the

6:15

same kitchen island. There's like a big kitchen island.

6:18

So I really value kitchen islands because I think

6:20

that's where like a lot of the cooking happens. And

6:22

in one of the kitchens, the

6:25

stove was at the kitchen island, which I thought

6:27

was kind of amazing. At the center of

6:29

the kitchen versus to the side, you know, but

6:31

each kitchen kind of created the same sort

6:34

of environment where everyone's eyes. It's

6:36

like a cheesy image that every food writer gives, but

6:38

you know, everyone does hang around the kitchen. That's where

6:40

the food is. So we barely used

6:42

our dining room or our dining tables. We

6:45

were always in the kitchen. Did, does your

6:47

mom, you call her Jean

6:49

by the way, which is

6:51

interesting because in, and you grew up in the

6:53

South and in the South people don't call their

6:55

mother by their first name. So

6:59

what's that about? To be

7:01

clear, I don't call her Jean to her face.

7:03

It was sort of a narrative device that I

7:05

decided early on when I was writing about her

7:07

for the first time, you know,

7:09

not even in the book, just in my stories at 52 or an

7:11

hour. She

7:14

was really just fleshed out as a character,

7:16

you know, cause she's so dynamic and interesting

7:18

and fun. And she's, um, she's a big

7:20

character and I think

7:22

I wanted people ultimately to get to

7:24

know her individually, not just as a

7:27

mom or an immigrant trope. You

7:30

know, actually in Korean culture, even Korean

7:32

mothers, they take on their children's names.

7:34

It's like, oh, Eric's mom or Jesse's

7:37

mom. She was

7:39

the first kid's name plus mom. So

7:42

it's like almost a literal

7:44

loss of identity once you have children,

7:46

but I just wanted to reverse that

7:48

here in the telling and

7:50

to show her as herself. And it's also

7:52

a big learning process for me. Work on

7:54

the book really helped me to see her

7:57

from her objective perspective so we can write

7:59

about her. I don't know, with nuance

8:01

or with the truth. So that was a writing tool

8:03

for you. It was easier to write about Jean than

8:05

to write about your mom in some way? You

8:08

know, yes. I think there is a part of

8:10

that because, I don't know, for

8:12

me, I need distance from something.

8:14

I need time. I need to know that

8:17

what I'm providing is only the tip of

8:19

the iceberg because the rest is for me

8:21

and my family. Because actually,

8:23

my mother is very private. She's a very

8:25

private person. She'd never wanted to do

8:27

any of the PR for the book She

8:29

agreed to one talk in Atlanta, which is great. It

8:32

was like her, because we're home and there's a lot

8:34

of people we knew that would show up. But

8:37

she just hates the idea of fame or anything like

8:39

that. Well, now I feel bad because I have a

8:41

bunch of questions I want to ask about it. No,

8:43

no, no. But I'm kind of feeling like maybe I

8:45

shouldn't intrude her privacy. No,

8:48

no, I mean, I've written about her and

8:50

she knows that I talk about

8:52

her. It's more that she doesn't want herself

8:54

want to have to be that person. But

8:57

you know what's interesting? She kind of is that person

8:59

in Atlanta. She's so popular in

9:01

the Korean American community for her food.

9:03

It's obviously really delicious, like before this

9:06

book. So I don't know, we deal

9:08

with it in different ways, but I'm

9:10

happy to talk about my mom. Hey, this

9:12

book really is dedicated to her. And I

9:14

think she loves, she secretly also likes

9:16

the attention, I think. Your

9:19

mother sounds like she is

9:22

fully in command in her kitchen.

9:25

Yes, she is. And so I

9:27

want you, thank you for painting a picture of the kitchen

9:29

and how you enter through the garage and how the garage

9:31

is an extension of the kitchen. But now I want you

9:33

to paint a picture of your mother in

9:36

command in her kitchen where she's making,

9:39

I don't know, let's say she's making Sunday supper. Oh

9:42

man, she always has an apron on. And you

9:45

know, Sunday supper for a lot of people is

9:47

like a rush chicken or a red sauce. And

9:49

that's actually my Sunday supper now as

9:51

an adult in my own kitchen. But

9:53

my mother always puts on an apron. It

9:56

usually has like cute little cartoon figures on it.

10:00

Korea as Us prices as lot assistance

10:02

in our house and as if you

10:04

make sense and Korean cuisine like people

10:06

don't really talk about that much but

10:08

there's always the fried fish smell and

10:11

a good way like and let let's

10:13

you know that dinners happening and there's

10:15

there's a race that for hims steaming

10:17

on the side and of and the

10:19

rest copper more kind of says you

10:21

know it's usually yellow croker it's is

10:24

very better relates soft almost salmon lights

10:26

but not as. Rich.

10:29

Be salts it beforehand and the reason

10:31

to do that as to get it's

10:33

really. Soak, Up the to

10:35

the seasoning but also it makes it

10:37

not rubbery but like the just firms

10:39

that up slightly so it's it's tender but

10:42

from and i'll surveyed to seats sars

10:44

explain and it's just like a different

10:46

kind of says that is so good and

10:48

like not quite dried. you know it's

10:50

not like a jerky, it's more like

10:52

just the perfect and so. That's

10:54

like a really familiar salford. that's.

11:02

Different. Kitchens have different personalities and they

11:04

reveal themselves often in the sentiments and

11:07

in the wheels and the things that

11:09

are all around the side. Your smile

11:11

even before I did to The question

11:13

is you know where I'm going to

11:16

kill me all about. That access

11:18

if your mother's kitchen and

11:20

it's personality as revealed to

11:22

the sentiments. And. Is

11:25

a gay person? Thinks of us? Is

11:27

really unless the memory my mom has. This.

11:31

Time memory of violence. Cabinets

11:33

were. like sesame

11:35

oil smell and kind of like

11:38

also all over everything oliver every

11:40

bottle like see the when you

11:42

see coach was i guess i

11:44

wouldn't say messy like sesame oil

11:46

does get everywhere it was her

11:48

olive oil she was using it

11:50

so much policies in neutral but

11:52

that's sesame oil is this i

11:54

didn't realize until later how corinne

11:56

it was another really lovely moment

11:58

in my life cooking life

12:00

because when I moved back home to

12:03

write this cookbook with her, I stayed with her

12:05

for nine months, and that was like my first

12:07

time being back home like that in a very

12:10

permanent way since I had left

12:12

for college, you know? And it was

12:15

one of those moments when I realized,

12:17

wow, her pantry, it's quite specific actually.

12:19

Specific to her, not just Korean cooks,

12:21

but to her, the sesame oil is

12:23

still a thing. It's like still kind

12:25

of all over everything. And kind of

12:28

sticky too. It is a little viscous,

12:30

yeah. But not to mention

12:32

she has these syrups that she loves, and

12:34

then gochugaru, which is that Korean red pepper

12:36

powder, and then in her other pantry, like

12:38

in the fridge, which is where

12:40

her kimchi fridges are and stuff like that, she

12:42

has gochujang, she has tenjang, she has these changs that

12:45

are kind of seasonings

12:47

that underpin a lot of

12:49

Korean cooking, and people call them condiments,

12:51

but they're more like bases for cooking, like a

12:53

sofritu or something. I sort of saw these sets

12:55

of ingredients. I was like, no one

12:57

just bought these five, six

13:00

items, then they could cook everything

13:02

in the book, you know, with pantry items.

13:04

And so I

13:06

was hoping to just like change people's mind about what

13:08

a pantry is and can be. It's like just so

13:11

personal to you. And I was really trying to channel

13:13

my mom when I did this book. And a lot

13:15

of those ingredients are now in my pantry, of course.

13:18

So you went back home to

13:20

write the book, and you were

13:22

in your mother's kitchen cooking with her,

13:25

observing. Does she like people in her

13:27

kitchen? Because not

13:29

everybody does. I feel

13:32

like you, I feel like

13:34

you, I'm laughing because I feel

13:36

like you know her so well. To me, the questions are

13:38

like pointed in a funny way because she

13:40

hates people in her kitchen. I somehow,

13:43

I somehow intuited that. I

13:46

love that you knew that. Yes, she, she

13:49

doesn't like people in her kitchen, but you know,

13:51

sometimes I don't either. Like when I'm cooking Thanksgiving

13:53

dinner, she's sort of my protector.

13:55

She's like, okay, Eric needs everyone out of

13:58

the kitchen. Like, stop crying to stuff. Like

14:00

we have to put out 10 dishes right

14:02

now. We run as a kitchen

14:04

duo pretty well. But

14:06

one of us is always taking lead. There's

14:08

never a moment where we're equal.

14:10

It's like the mark. There's always a

14:12

hierarchy. And is that negotiated? Or do

14:14

you just understand who's sitting

14:17

and who's lead? Oh,

14:19

I think it's honestly based

14:22

on feeling. Maybe we don't really discuss it,

14:24

but it's always clear who's leading and who's

14:26

not. Like who's dinner it is, who's dinner

14:28

it isn't. So I think we're just

14:31

like into it, maybe. Oh, that's

14:33

really pretty. Yeah. It's

14:39

really beautiful that you have this relationship with

14:41

your mom and that you can

14:44

cook together and that you can live peacefully

14:46

together during the pandemic when a lot of

14:48

us were thrown back into our

14:50

home spaces or locked down into

14:52

home spaces with people that we usually only

14:54

spent about six, eight, 10 hours a day

14:56

with. And then we were spending what felt

14:58

like 36 hours a day, even though there

15:00

were only 24 hours in a day. So

15:03

it's really wonderful that you have that

15:05

relationship, but we should note that your

15:07

relationship with your mother has been complicated.

15:11

Yeah, it has been. People gloss over

15:13

that part. Well, you don't. You

15:15

begin your cookbook. You just dive right in. I mean,

15:17

in the first chapter, I think it's in the first

15:19

sentence, I ran away from home. Yeah. You

15:22

know, I think it took living

15:25

with her again as an adult to

15:27

realize how much more nuanced our

15:29

relationship could be, how

15:31

it was gonna be different. Because

15:35

for a decade, I had just been coming

15:37

home for Christmas and Thanksgiving and just

15:39

like saying hi and bye and leaving. And that's

15:41

the joy of being a child, right? You get

15:44

to come home and just relax and not be

15:46

the adult anymore. But

15:48

writing this book with her, spending time with her,

15:50

just the day to day of it and like

15:53

seeing her wins or maybe she was

15:55

having a good day or a bad day. It's

15:57

really interesting being roommates with your mother as an

15:59

adult. And, you know, I had just

16:01

turned 30, I think, and I left

16:03

after nine months of working with her

16:06

on this cookbook, and I felt a

16:08

real shift. I was like, wow, our

16:10

relationship is different now because we've established

16:12

different kinds of rules and boundaries, and

16:15

I think that's lovely. It's constantly

16:17

evolving and something I'm in the process

16:19

with. Why was your

16:22

relationship with your mom so

16:24

complicated when you were a teenager? Oh,

16:27

wow. I

16:32

think the main

16:34

thing was that we

16:37

were so similar, maybe. I

16:39

don't know. I think that's a cop-out, but my

16:42

mother and I kind of occupied

16:45

a similar role in our family, and

16:47

I think it was the role

16:49

of people who communicate. My

16:51

brother would be hiding more of himself as

16:54

he grew up and gained confidence, and I

16:57

really told them everything I was thinking at all

16:59

times. So I was kind of a handful. Some

17:03

of that involved just maybe

17:05

rebelling a little bit. I think

17:07

I wasn't a bad kid, but I was

17:09

doing things that were a little different than

17:11

other kids. Like what? Something

17:14

as simple as in school, all of our

17:16

friends' kids were maybe going into science and

17:18

math or tech or something like that, but

17:20

her kid was this music, creative

17:22

writing guy in literature. But

17:25

every time I would present her with a

17:27

new thing, she'd be like, oh,

17:29

I didn't expect to have a son who would

17:31

want to become an English teacher or a musician

17:33

or something like that. I think with that, she

17:35

would try to learn the thing. She'd be like,

17:37

OK, I want to try to understand what your

17:40

dream is or what your thing is that you

17:42

like right now, because I had phases. In

17:45

the music phase, she was like, OK, if we're

17:47

doing this, we're doing it right. We're going to

17:49

get your voice lessons. We're going to get you

17:51

into Berkeley. She was always a very good height

17:53

man, I think. And so I

17:55

think the tension came from in

17:58

a much more superficial way in the kitchen. to

18:00

be honest, it was just disagreeing about how

18:02

to cook certain things. But I

18:04

think because we had such a strong foundation,

18:06

it was not that hard to like eventually

18:08

have some empathy in the kitchen towards

18:11

your mother and your son to just be,

18:13

just like listen to each other more. But we're both

18:15

very stubborn, so. That was

18:17

a really long answer. But I think that led

18:20

us back to the kitchen. When you

18:22

were a teenager, when she said, if you're

18:24

gonna do music, let's get you into Berkeley,

18:26

let's figure out how to get your voice lessons. Did

18:28

you feel in some ways that she was trying to control

18:30

the narrative for you? Oh

18:33

wow. Let you explore on your own and just figure

18:35

it out. Ooh,

18:37

that's interesting. My mom

18:39

wasn't a momager, she wasn't like a stage mom

18:42

or anything like that. Momager, I love that word.

18:45

Yeah, it's a big thing. But you know,

18:47

if my mom was a momager, it was

18:49

just that she learned how to drive better

18:51

so that she could drive like two hours

18:53

to, I don't know,

18:55

like Valdosta, Georgia for that flute audition

18:58

or state orchestra or something like random. She

19:01

always let me do the thing that I wanted to do.

19:04

She did her best to help it along. So

19:07

I look back on, I'm like, wow, that was really

19:09

lovely. She showed me a model of

19:12

how to find the thing that you're good

19:14

at that you're supposed to do. And I sort

19:16

of lived my life like that. And finding

19:18

food writing was really random, but maybe I wouldn't

19:21

have found it so easily if I didn't

19:23

have my mom. It's really

19:26

nice to have someone who's in your corner who

19:29

believes in you, who is

19:31

always telling you you can be what you wanna

19:33

be. Yeah, but who's also

19:35

really critical as well. I

19:37

had this cover story about Kimchi. You

19:40

know, it's a big win, I don't know, I

19:42

wanna say. Was this for the New

19:44

York Times? It was this huge picture

19:46

of Kimchi on the cover of the food section. And

19:48

I read this piece where I interviewed all these

19:50

Korean, really amazing Korean chefs.

19:52

And I haven't defend Georgia, so I picked

19:55

up a copy at Publix. I

19:57

like laid it out on the counter. I was like, I love Kimchi.

20:00

on the front page of the food section. I

20:02

think she was kind of like, oh, I feel like she

20:05

criticized the photo, mostly the way the

20:07

food looked. And

20:09

I was like, that's a weird thing to focus on.

20:11

I thought, I was trying

20:13

to share with her this nice moment in my

20:15

career where

20:18

I got to write about Kim Chi in a big way

20:20

for the New York Times. But when she's on my

20:22

face, that was kind of like, well, that's a weird thing

20:25

to focus on. She was like, well,

20:28

I'm not just anyone. It's

20:31

your work, so I thought you would want

20:33

my honesty because I have taste. And she

20:36

made a good point. I was like, you're right, you do have taste.

20:38

And so I don't know. It was one of those things where I

20:40

was like, it sounds like tough love,

20:42

but it's actually more just like she's, I

20:44

like her honesty. It was really helpful during recipe

20:46

development. She was just like, oh, that tastes terrible.

20:48

Or like, she wouldn't feed her in the bush.

20:51

So it's nice to have someone like that. She's

20:53

very honest. So many

20:56

of us have that, gosh, mom was right

20:58

moments. Like, yeah, absolutely. She

21:00

was actually right. I didn't want her

21:02

to be right. It's supposed

21:04

to be my thing. Yeah, I'm

21:06

starting to realize that now, luckily, like

21:09

sooner than later, but she's just, I

21:11

don't know, she's always right. Or

21:13

at least if she's saying something that I disagree with. Have you

21:15

told her that? She's always right? She probably

21:17

loved to hear that. You know, I think

21:20

she knows it. She doesn't need me to say it. So

21:22

yeah, I've definitely said those words to her in Korean. Yeah,

21:24

because we trust each other. In the book, it

21:27

begins with an introduction. And the

21:29

very first words in

21:31

the very first chapter are when

21:33

I was 17 years old, I ran

21:36

away from home. Okay,

21:39

I'm not gonna continue reading, but you're gonna have to

21:41

explain what happened. Why

21:43

did you run away from home? You went to Nashville. Why

21:45

did you run away and why did you go to Nashville?

21:47

You know, I ran away because

21:50

college acceptance letters had just come in. And

21:54

I went to a really competitive public

21:56

high school in Georgia and there was

21:58

so much pressure. But I

22:01

remember being so disappointed when I didn't get into

22:03

my dream schools and The

22:05

rejection letters were already torn open on my

22:08

mom's bed Like I walked in and I

22:10

didn't get to like feel that it's like

22:12

he opened the letters before you did Yeah,

22:14

all of my mother opened that she

22:17

opened all of my mail And

22:20

you know up until then I wasn't really getting that

22:22

much mail so like there wasn't a situation where she

22:25

saw that as a boundary crosser cuz I

22:27

was a kid and she was like I'm gonna open

22:30

the mail because it's gonna tell us whether he got into the

22:32

school that I'm gonna pay for you know and I Really

22:34

understand why she opened all that mail, but

22:37

we had to have a conversation about it after that I

22:39

was like well first I ran away because

22:41

I was so angry Well, I

22:43

was also just telling you that the sequencing of that was really

22:45

interesting. We had to have a conversation First

22:48

I ran away. I was so

22:51

young and so angry and I was

22:53

mostly projecting my anger because

22:56

Obviously, I was just mad at myself for not getting into

22:58

the schools that I wanted to get into and I was

23:01

disappointed and I just wanted

23:03

to go see my cousin in Nashville, which is

23:05

not around the corner from Atlanta How did you

23:07

get to Nashville? I just drove there. I took

23:09

the car You

23:12

took a car that did not

23:14

have your name No one pressed me

23:16

about this Everyone just lets the

23:18

story happen But

23:21

it was a really lovely trip. I think my

23:23

mom knew what had

23:25

happened. She liked to tell she just like

23:27

knew me So well, she was like oh Eric needs

23:29

to blow off steam Please

23:32

pretend to be mad at me and then he's

23:34

pretending She

23:38

How long did you stay away you went to go

23:40

visit your cousin in Nashville? She worked in

23:42

Nashville So over the weekend, it

23:45

was a very chill weekend But ultimately my mom did

23:47

reach out to my cousin Becky being like is he

23:49

okay and Becky was like, uh I don't know. I

23:51

talked about it. Let me check and

23:53

Becky played telephone and she's like, yeah, yeah, he's

23:55

fine He's just steam and

23:57

and when I came home, she was really nice So

24:00

what was it like, wait a minute, you leave

24:02

home, didn't tell anybody where you were going, come

24:04

home. What was the reentry like?

24:07

Oh God, I found so spoiled. The reentry

24:09

was my mom and I just had dinner

24:11

and she like had made food and she

24:14

was like, she asked me how

24:16

was it. And she just said, boy, where have you been? She

24:18

just asked me, how was your trip? Was

24:24

it dripping with sarcasm or was it? No, it

24:26

wasn't. I'm glad, I don't think, I'm glad you're

24:28

safe and I'm glad you're home. Yeah, I think she was

24:30

like, I'm glad you're home. It was very

24:32

unspoken, but yeah, I remember getting very

24:35

emotional. Like I just

24:37

hadn't done anything until that moment. I

24:39

was such a good kid. I

24:41

had a really good support network, a lot of

24:44

cousins around, a big brother. I

24:46

read an online review of this book just before coming

24:48

here because I was just like, how would

24:50

you have been thinking about this? I actually don't even know. And

24:53

one person had said, I loved

24:55

reading about a home that I was never a part

24:57

of, but I wish I was. Or something like that.

24:59

And I was like, whoa. I

25:01

mean, it puts into perspective and I recognize that

25:04

the upbringing I had was very charmed.

25:06

You know, it had its hardships, which

25:09

every family does. But when I

25:12

really think back on it, I'm like, wow, I was

25:14

super lucky. Coming up, Eric Kim

25:16

shares the secrets of making a perfect Kim

25:18

Chi. Stay with us. Though.

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or sleepnumber.com. When

26:40

I travel, I'm usually looking for a way

26:42

to find a taste of home when I'm

26:44

not at home. And one of the things

26:46

I love to do when I am at

26:48

home is entertain. I love to be able

26:50

to cook in a kitchen and have a

26:52

good meal with the people I care about

26:55

all around me. Airbnb allows me to do

26:57

that. When I was in California recently, I

27:00

rented a house that had a great kitchen

27:02

and a big island and we were able

27:04

to all get in and do our thing

27:06

together and sit down in the adjoining dining

27:08

room and have a long, loud

27:11

meal and then clean up afterwards and

27:13

continue the conversation. I love being

27:15

able to do that and Airbnb allowed

27:18

that to happen. And when we were sitting around the table,

27:20

we're all thinking, we're in someone else's

27:22

house. And that could be in

27:24

all of our homes as well. Hosting

27:27

your home on Airbnb is a great way

27:29

to make some extra money. It's very

27:31

practical as a side hustle. Your home

27:33

might be worth more than you think. Find

27:36

out how much at airbnb.com

27:38

slash host. Well,

27:49

you know, we have to talk about QMT. Well,

27:52

in one reason that many

27:54

people in Korean households have additional

27:56

refrigerators is because of QMT. I

27:58

wonder if we should start with the refrigerators. And

28:02

notice that I said refrigerator plural. Oh

28:07

yeah that's really spot-on. My mom

28:09

has so many refrigerators

28:12

she has two regular sized

28:14

ones. One is in the basement and

28:16

it sort of holds all the more

28:18

esoteric pantry ingredients that she flies over

28:20

from Korea every year. So she

28:22

only goes down there when she really needs to

28:24

replenish her like garlic stock for instance and then

28:27

sort of like a little garden. The

28:29

upstairs fridge is our regular fridge that gets swapped

28:32

out with the weeknight dinners and some

28:34

banchan that we heat regularly. But then

28:36

she also has these two kimchi fridges

28:39

and they almost look like freezer

28:41

door coolers like kind of like you're

28:43

looking for ice cream at the grocery

28:45

store. Anyway they're like the big chests

28:48

that you kind of open up and you

28:50

open up yeah and then you sort of

28:52

look at it like treasure. It's pretty incredible

28:54

and she has all of her kimchis in

28:56

these fridges. One of them's like you know

28:58

in the awning towards the garage the other

29:00

one is in the garage.

29:03

That's like four fridges. Yeah she's like

29:05

four fridges. Are there any secret fridges

29:07

that she has that you don't even know about? Well

29:09

actually they have a secret

29:12

fridge in my dad's room. Oh he does! He

29:14

actually does have a secret fridge. I was a

29:16

girl but he actually does have a secret fridge.

29:18

You made me realize they have a secret fridge.

29:20

They have this like mini one that they use

29:23

for like their liquids. Like my dad apparently drinks

29:25

so much whole milk that he needs a whole

29:27

carton like in his bedroom next to his desk.

29:29

It's so funny and they keep like a

29:32

beer and like fruit and stuff like that in there. Now

29:34

you have to explain why she has so

29:36

many refrigerators. Each

29:38

one sort of has a roll in her

29:41

realm of cooking and it just meant that

29:43

her pantry has grown so much because she

29:45

uses the freezer as an extension of her

29:47

pantry which is really smart. And in the

29:49

book you say that kimchi is a verb.

29:52

Explain that. Yeah you

29:54

know in doing the translation of

29:56

Korean food for an English audience

29:58

or just from Korean and culture to

30:00

American culture. It's interesting to

30:03

see how you can borrow the language as

30:05

well. And you're right, kimchi is not a

30:07

verb in Korean, but it's something

30:09

that I hear Korean Americans saying all the time.

30:11

They're always like, oh, I'm gonna kimchi this, or

30:13

I kimchied that. And that's how

30:16

special it is. It's not like I'm gonna preserve this,

30:18

but the specificity of the kimchi is

30:20

so great that you need a new word for

30:22

it. And I love stuff like that. We're not

30:25

leaning into the verb of

30:27

kimchi enough, meaning turning

30:29

a vegetable into kimchi. It's a process

30:31

that's really specific, just the salting and

30:33

then the seasoning and then the fermenting.

30:36

But that end product, I've been making

30:38

kimchi, like kale kimchi, just because I

30:41

love tusking kale. And it's

30:43

so bitter and delicious, and it's really different,

30:45

and I kimchied that kale. That

30:48

sounds like you're bragging, I kimchi'd

30:50

that kale. You

30:52

should brag, it's so much, it's kind of a lot of

30:55

work. Can we talk

30:57

about the process of making kimchi? It

30:59

seems like it's really simple, but

31:02

it also sounds like if you mess up one

31:04

of those simple steps that it could go in

31:07

the wrong direction. So what are the basics of

31:09

making your mother jeans kimchi?

31:11

Yeah, I think simple is

31:14

a great word. I always try to remind people

31:16

that just because something takes long doesn't mean it's

31:18

not simple. And it's just sort

31:20

of a progression of little things you have to

31:22

do. So wait, what do you need to begin? You

31:26

need a big, like a vat, right?

31:28

You need a big vat. Plastic? Plastic

31:30

is great, metal is totally fine as

31:32

well. In this step, it's really

31:34

just getting the salt on the kimchi and... And

31:36

you cut a cabbage in half? You cut one

31:38

half a cabbage in half, yeah. And

31:41

you salt it. I like to use just

31:43

regular coarse, kosher salt. This is

31:45

the one part that you just need to follow

31:47

the recipe because you need the proportion to be

31:49

right. The proportion of salt to the cabbage.

31:52

And in the recipe, I

31:54

do give a very specific type of salt.

31:56

It's like Morton coarse, kosher salt. And

31:59

I developed this with it. And I

32:01

used a different kosher salt one time when

32:03

I was like, you know, doing a video

32:05

and that kimchi didn't taste as good.

32:07

It like didn't come out right. The

32:09

salting step is the baseline

32:12

that helps you create a safe environment

32:14

for the probiotic production. Like

32:16

you're growing bacteria, but like in

32:18

a safe environment so that it's

32:20

only like beneficial, like good bacteria.

32:22

So no improvisation there. No improvisation

32:24

there. You know, I

32:26

will weigh my vegetables just so I know

32:29

that I have the right proportion of like

32:31

salt to weight of a veg. And then

32:33

you're just creating a sauce. And

32:35

the sauce is really where you can be

32:37

creative, but jeans is this really like punchy.

32:39

It's like super savory, salty,

32:42

tangy from like a little fruit. She

32:44

also adds pine nuts sometimes, which are

32:46

really, really nice. Ginger. Some

32:49

kimchis don't have as much ginger, but you just do

32:51

what you like. And the sweetness in

32:54

here comes from mexichang, which is that green

32:56

plum syrup. And that plum syrup is a

32:58

little fruitier and porter. And

33:01

what's really lovely is the sauce also

33:03

gets whole vegetables. So most of the

33:05

sauce is like pureed, but you also

33:07

matchstick like some Korean radish and

33:10

scallion and whatever vegetables you want. Some people

33:12

do carrots. The more like whole

33:14

vegetable that's in the pureed, those

33:16

let out their natural water and sort of

33:18

thin out the sauce as it's pickling. That's

33:21

something that I kind of like realized. There's sort of

33:23

a formula in this second step of the sauce is

33:25

really where you can like have fun. Like

33:28

sometimes I'll swap out the radish with

33:30

beetroot, just like raw, peeled,

33:32

matchstick, beetroot. And it turns the

33:34

kimchi like purple or like pink.

33:36

It's really beautiful. So that's

33:39

the second step. And then you just sauce

33:41

the cabbage. You're sort of like smearing

33:43

the sauce in between each leaf. So

33:45

once you actually slather the

33:47

sauce all over the cabbage inside

33:50

the leaves, get it all

33:52

over every place. Then you put it

33:54

inside a jar with a very tight

33:57

seal. So it's like a plastic.

34:00

lid, not an airtight mason

34:02

jar lid, because there's going to be gas in

34:04

the jar that needs to get out. And

34:07

that's how people's like jars explode. I don't

34:09

want to scare you, but I've never had

34:11

a jar of kimchi explode on me. My

34:13

mom has never had it happen to her.

34:16

It's like a baby. You have to burp

34:18

it. You have to burp it. You

34:20

know, after the first two days and then every

34:22

like week, but this is something you'll do

34:24

inherently if you're eating it, like if you need to dip

34:27

into it. And then when you do it, you'll hear this

34:29

almost like a bottle of Sprite. It's like, that's how

34:31

you know it's like doing well. So

34:34

once you have the jars of kimchi and

34:36

you're checking on them and you're letting a

34:38

little air out and you're burping your baby,

34:41

give us an example of something that

34:43

you would make with the kimchi because

34:45

the cookbook includes so many options.

34:48

There's a kimchi sandwich and there's

34:50

kimchi stew and there's all kinds of things

34:52

that you can do with kimchi. What

34:55

in particular would you recommend? Yeah,

34:57

I really think people should just start

34:59

with kimchi jigae. It's a kimchi stew,

35:01

jigae means stew. And it's one

35:03

of those things that you make out of the

35:05

jar of kimchi that you forgot about for many, many

35:08

months. And then you find it in the back and

35:10

you open it. You're like, whoa, that's like rank. But

35:12

you know, it's going to taste incredible because the fermentation

35:15

has caused like all of the

35:17

savoriness to be just super deep

35:19

and wonderful. That kimchi is

35:22

a really good stew. And I love

35:24

this recipe because it's a

35:26

very hands off kind

35:28

of like pared down version of

35:30

my mom's kimchi jigae. Hers

35:33

is already pretty simple. Like she'll rely on the

35:35

kimchi juice to provide most of the flavor of

35:37

the dish. So the kimchi has to be good.

35:39

But I'm also very aware of

35:41

people who don't have, you know,

35:43

day old mom kimchi. So

35:46

I tested it with other things and

35:48

really just a little kochujang, just like

35:50

this amazing fermented chili paste, add some

35:53

savoriness and depth and

35:55

pork belly and a

35:57

little onion at the end. And the things

35:59

are added to the pot. very gradually and

36:02

sequentially so like they're added in the order

36:04

in which they need to be cooked which

36:06

means the pork starts first but each ingredient

36:08

builds a layer of kind of flavor in

36:10

the ultimate broth and it's a really different

36:12

method of cooking it's relying

36:15

on that like fast burbling kind

36:17

of liquid kind of heat versus

36:20

in a lot of Western cooking it's like searing it

36:22

first very hard and then adding the

36:24

liquid and then braising for a long time but

36:26

this takes like 10 or 15 minutes but those

36:28

15 minutes are really optimized that's why

36:30

I love this kimchi jigae and when you overcook

36:33

the kimchi jigae actually the taste the flavors will

36:35

be a little more muddled so

36:37

you want everything to have its

36:39

own distinct yeah flavor yes yeah

36:42

and so very bright version of kimchi jigae and

36:44

the reason I take this recipe or I like

36:46

this recipe a lot is because the photo is

36:49

a shot from behind my mother in this

36:51

amazing hanbok just having lunch for herself and

36:53

what's funny is like I mean it was

36:55

her lunch she was really hungry and I

36:57

mean her outfit is stylized but there's just

36:59

really cute watching

37:04

her be like I get to eat this

37:07

like this is such a fancy version of

37:09

my you know we're trying to mimic what

37:11

her lunch would look like anyway I love

37:13

that recipe and I love that dish and

37:16

I know people make it because it's a

37:18

really everyday kind of

37:20

dish it's truly like Wednesday night you can

37:22

throw that together it's so good just looks

37:24

like a you know a bowl

37:27

of white rice or as my mother is having it here

37:29

with some burdock root tea which actually is

37:31

something she would do by

37:33

the way mom has a very nice manicure in that picture

37:35

it looks like nails did that day she

37:37

probably did she's like attention to person

37:45

is there in your relationship with your

37:47

mom dance that

37:49

you carefully navigate

37:52

in realizing that as good a cook as

37:55

she is you might become just as

37:57

good a cook I

38:02

feel like my mom has already given me that

38:04

sort of torch. I don't want it

38:06

and I don't believe it because like I

38:08

think there are things that she makes that I can't

38:11

make yet. And so I always

38:13

believe that cooking is really just it's you know, sometimes it

38:15

is kind of a muscle that you get better at the

38:17

more you do it. But

38:19

taste and like flavor and

38:21

seasoning and ingenuity

38:24

like I think those things are kind of inherent

38:26

in the person. I've like

38:28

thought a lot about this. Can you learn to cook? And

38:30

I do think you can learn to cook but you can't

38:32

teach taste and my mom

38:35

has taste. I have love

38:37

talking to you about your mama's kitchen.

38:39

What is it about that space that

38:42

leaves an imprint on us? How

38:44

was the time that you spent as a

38:47

young person and then going back again on

38:49

this pilgrimage to write this cookbook? How is that

38:52

shaped you and the person that you've become? It's

38:55

a pretty question. I think this

38:57

interview made me sort of think back on how

39:00

it didn't even matter which house it was. All the

39:02

kitchens were kind of the same. They were laid out

39:04

the same because the person who was

39:06

leading the kitchen was the same woman, you know. So

39:09

my mother was the one putting always putting the sesame

39:11

oil in the bottom left, you know, cabinet. Like why

39:13

didn't we put it in the top? Like that's what

39:15

I do now as an adult in my kitchen but

39:18

everyone has their own rhythm. It's just interesting that all

39:20

the houses bleed into each other for me because it

39:22

was her domain, you know. And

39:26

it takes like coming out of your mother's

39:28

like kitchen domain to really figure out what

39:30

your own is because I think every individual

39:32

adult can have their own if they enjoy cooking, if

39:34

it's part of their life. I

39:38

have love talking to you. Thank you so

39:40

much. Thank you so much for having me. The

39:42

book is called Korean American Food That

39:44

Tastes Like Home. I've been talking to

39:47

Eric Kim. Eric, thanks so much. Thank you. I

39:56

don't know about you, but I'm going to try that kimchi

39:58

and I'm going to try burping that baby. We'll

40:00

see how that goes. Well, Eric's

40:03

story reveals something beautiful and how

40:05

relationships evolve over time, whether it's

40:07

a parent, a sibling, a friend,

40:09

or a coworker, maybe

40:12

someone you don't feel particularly close to,

40:14

someone who's gotten on your nerves. Well, that

40:17

relationship always has the potential to

40:19

evolve and to grow. Sometimes

40:22

we need to do something a little dramatic

40:24

to jumpstart that change. And I'm not advocating

40:26

for running away from home to visit a cousin

40:28

in the family car, but sometimes

40:31

distance can provide a clearer vision

40:33

and a clean slate. Eric

40:36

was fortunate to have a mom like

40:38

Jean who understood he needed to leave

40:40

so that he could also feel the

40:42

need to come back home and to

40:44

share everything he learned along the way

40:46

over a good home cooked meal. If

40:49

you are up for trying Eric's

40:51

kimchi or kimchi jigae at home,

40:53

that's the kimchi stew, you can

40:55

find the recipe at our website,

40:57

yourmamaskitchen.com. And we wanna hear

40:59

about your experiences, so share your

41:01

pictures, your kitchen tips, and

41:03

your interpretations of this delicious

41:05

Korean American food. Thanks

41:07

so much for listening to your mom's kitchen. I'm

41:09

Michelle Norris, see you soon.

41:11

Bye. Oh. Oh.

41:14

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

41:18

Oh. Oh. Oh.

41:20

Oh. This has been a

41:22

Higher Ground, an Audible Original produced

41:25

by Higher Ground Studios. Senior producer

41:27

Natalie Wren, producer Sonia Tan. Additional

41:29

production support by Misha Jones. Sound

41:31

design and engineering from Andrew Eapon

41:34

and Ryan Kozlowski. Higher

41:36

Ground audio's editorial assistant is

41:38

Camilla Ferdicus. Executive producers for

41:40

Higher Ground are Nick White, Mook

41:42

to Mohan, Dan Fearman, and me,

41:44

Michelle Norris. Executive producers for

41:46

Audible are Nick D'Angelo and

41:48

Ann Hepperman. The show's closing song

41:51

is 504 by the Soul Rebels.

41:53

Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear

41:55

and Say What Media. Talent

41:58

Booker, Angela Peluso. Chief content. officer,

42:00

Richard Giazza, and that's it.

42:02

Good bye, everybody. Copyright 2024

42:05

by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

42:07

Sound recording copyright 2024 by

42:09

Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound

42:12

recording copyright 2021

42:14

by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

42:26

Higher Ground Mom

42:32

deserves the best and there's no

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better place to shop for Mother's

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Day than Whole Foods Market. They're

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Then get a 15-stem bunch of tulips for

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rosé, irresistible berry shantily cake

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and more special treats. Come celebrate

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