0:00

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is you.

0:02

Can't make this up. You

0:15

can make this up as the podcast

0:17

where we uncover the true stories behind

0:19

your favorite Netflix documentaries in films. On

0:22

today's episode we take a closer look

0:24

at the Netflix documentary what Jennifer did

0:26

in a guy was there and he

0:28

came at me and and my aren't

0:30

back and should have a gun behind

0:32

your back to what I see if

0:34

you do it I see them normal

0:36

get hurt Today We're talking to director

0:38

Jenny Papa Well and producer Paul Know

0:40

In in two thousand and ten Police

0:42

and a quiet Ontario suburb of received

0:45

a frantic. Nine One One call

0:47

A woman said she'd been tied

0:49

up by intruders who just shot

0:51

her parents. With her mother dead

0:53

and her father clinging to life,

0:55

Jennifer Pan gave detectives gripping descriptions

0:57

of the home invasion. Investigators had

0:59

no idea why the Pans had

1:01

been targeted, but a closer look

1:04

at Jennifer's life made The Murray

1:06

think what they knew about the

1:08

case. The Netflix documentary What Jennifer

1:10

Did looks back at the high

1:12

profile crime that shook Canada. The

1:14

film uses police. Interrogation footage and

1:17

testimony from those involved to

1:19

unravel a web of complexities

1:21

that no one saw coming.

1:23

Yes, we know criminals or that sports on the

1:25

job, but I don't think that they could get

1:28

this whole play mixed up and killed the wrong

1:30

people to bullshit. She said this whole thing off.

1:46

And. I'm joined now by director Jedi Papa Well

1:48

and producer Paul Away and welcome to you

1:50

can make that up Jenny and Paul Hi

1:52

thanks for having us or subpar we do

1:54

begin with is dramatic Nine One One Call

1:56

Can you talk about that like what we're

1:58

hearing? The Nine One One. How what'd you think

2:00

when you first? Heard as well. It's. You

2:04

know, a shock to me. You know

2:06

she's reporting it to the police and

2:08

they're taking the call and is a

2:10

lot of urgency. It's emergency room, German

2:12

Army. Am

2:17

wondering another. Man's.

2:24

And later on, when you see the

2:26

interrogation footage, you realize you know that

2:28

Jennifer's unreliable narrator our we don't know

2:30

whether she's speaking the truth or allies.

2:32

And. So. Everything is what the

2:34

question. So. To. Find out later on

2:37

you know the extent of her involvement

2:39

in this case entered suit. Contrast that

2:41

with the beginning the emergency call. it's

2:43

as a soft as I read online

2:45

the reactions like I she deserves a

2:47

oscar for performance. I think that the

2:49

novel Uncle It's again to the top

2:51

of my laptop said Genesis Reading makes

2:53

the school and part lane freeways com

2:55

like saw and I think it's is

2:57

capped at that moment of realization. Such

2:59

an asset that this a survivor the

3:01

hadn't her father is alive and and

3:03

it is to panic in her voice

3:05

when she shouts Seen on calling Nine

3:07

One One I'm pulling Nine One One

3:09

and. That. Moment is again.

3:11

Tempted into the A so I think it's

3:14

key moments have been cancelled. Hammer on Holiday

3:16

in it. He he wasn't a wait and

3:18

then she called my mom. Once he wakes

3:20

up during a comes like steering ha ha

3:22

codes the place. I'm curious. In A we

3:24

get the highlights of those three separate interviews

3:27

with Jennifer in the documentary. When she tells

3:29

the police or story how much raw video

3:31

was there are those interviews and did you

3:33

have to go through all of it? Yeah,

3:35

this about son Alice as Gore into the

3:38

Elite. We? yeah, we went through all of

3:40

that the detectives around in. Circles of Sli

3:42

and then an initial be halfway through telling

3:44

one story and than us build Circle Back

3:47

which is a technique that will investigate as

3:49

he is and into the and people So

3:51

that was about to racing that materials to

3:53

that It was easy to understand so the

3:56

audience to organize the material together and and

3:58

the elements she's talking about when. Speaks

4:00

about Daniel. that's then all gathered together when

4:02

she's talking about her parents. suspects organized together

4:04

they are. This is a lot of material

4:06

to Geiser support. When you were listening to

4:09

Jennifer talk, especially her first interview, I'm wondering

4:11

what struck you about how she carried herself.

4:13

You know what her ass act was he?

4:15

when is it a story I think knowing

4:17

more about it then you know I did

4:20

when I was watching a documentary. So I'm

4:22

curious knowing what you knew? What was it

4:24

like watching that? What struck to you about.

4:26

It. Well my reaction you know

4:29

on seeing the footage. And.

4:31

Knowing what I knew ah as are surprising

4:33

ah because I think of her demeanor and

4:35

look very com towards the confidence and in

4:37

this testimony I think many people were kind

4:39

of was surprised that the sea sauce you

4:42

could get away with something like this and

4:44

that the police were where they were initially.

4:46

you know believe her testimony but I think

4:48

or later on you know it's just wouldn't

4:50

have held up this. Madness I: She's

4:52

very upset. Clearly. And the

4:55

detectives told us he never see that as

4:57

x him as a crime. This is a

4:59

witness to the being very delicate I'm very

5:01

careful with or even though they have questions in

5:03

or that is alarming why is she tied up

5:05

and half lives they laughed as surviving witness They're

5:07

not in the world of prime documentary is

5:09

not. Every story is gonna have some crazy

5:11

twist is often think that happen at face

5:13

value is is the ethics in liaison officer

5:15

jeopardizing has been assigned to have that worried

5:17

if she can get this information and they asked

5:20

has come straight from the hospital as is

5:22

just lost her mom and her dance. In

5:24

a coma so that it is a delicate

5:26

into the assessed into the lowers your more

5:28

by the actual victims of the crime. Han

5:30

and Big Pan am looks people were their

5:32

paw and what's your impression of them. Were

5:34

from the testimony from Hong though she says

5:37

that there are you know he will Kind

5:39

people know the care for the daughter Obviously.

5:41

Ah, Especially in of they're providing education and

5:43

paying for all these lessons and just trying

5:46

to in a want her to excel so

5:48

from all accounts and will I mean will

5:50

never really know what happens in the house

5:52

because you know what can speak for them

5:54

You know from the outside and from the

5:56

feedback that I got are just going online

5:58

have seen people's reactions like. Like people really

6:00

divided and somewhere like oh of the parents

6:02

care for her, the to care of you

6:04

and in this is how you repay them.

6:06

Legumes The Shot and other people kind of

6:09

sympathize with Jennifer for her case and can

6:11

relate to feeling those parental pressures and affecting

6:13

the mental health and that could be a

6:15

serious problem as well. So you know there

6:17

is for such a very divided. By

6:19

Jenny I mean it's the thought is that

6:21

the holidays in was about money is seems

6:23

like that. Hands were financially comfortable but they

6:25

weren't the wealthiest people on the block. Am

6:28

I getting that right? Yeah as benefits as

6:30

was on the comfortable they paid their houses

6:32

then adding to their names and working very

6:34

very hard and the hit divides the best

6:37

allies to their family in the very scientist

6:39

on in his seen providers and making sure

6:41

that their next generation is able to handle

6:43

them since he said they didn't have and

6:46

they let these jobs. And Cnn has

6:48

worked in an in a company called Mcnamara

6:50

Papa Company. that's what really hard and seized.

6:52

I don't think that they other than that

6:54

cause I don't think that they were spending

6:57

a lot of money on other luxuries. I

6:59

think that they were side this and driven

7:01

and I think it didn't look to the

7:03

tower set the detectives that it was financially

7:05

motivated because money was left in the house

7:07

the safe as on tossed they didn't hit

7:10

a wall that. The it's more

7:12

like days when they look at the site as

7:14

they tend a house up and and mattresses were

7:16

eyes as he said see that and been turned

7:19

upside down The valuables had been left behind. Said.

7:21

It didn't seem that they were silenced. It's a

7:23

that money Paul. You said that you are from

7:25

Toronto as well. But what is the community where

7:27

they live? What is that community like? Markham

7:30

has a you know a larger Asian

7:32

population. the Vietnamese, Chinese background I would

7:34

say is considered a more affluent part

7:36

of the zebra. Did you see a

7:38

which is like the greater Toronto area

7:40

surrounding areas and yes us again or

7:43

single detached home double garage the up

7:45

to luxury cars I mean the other

7:47

L a bit more than comes to

7:49

must say in A depending on your

7:51

perspective but in that community mark and

7:53

is not known for crime. That.

8:00

The randomness roosters and so is. there

8:03

was a motivation of there's reason ah

8:05

you know than losing all say oh

8:07

it's it's fair if they had the

8:09

reason why. it's actually very quiet peaceful

8:11

people. Go there to hang out, go

8:13

to the mods a very i beautiful

8:16

neighborhoods. So. When something like this happen, it

8:18

was a big shot in the community. Why

8:20

do you want to talk about Daniel Long?

8:23

We can come back then and his motivations

8:25

and a bit but their relationship. I mean

8:27

it was a long term relationship or started

8:29

when she was quite young. Agenda get only

8:32

about the nature of their relationship and mean

8:34

they were together but it was a secret

8:36

from her parents right? Yes they don't me

8:38

until two thousand and three she sorry young

8:41

that is here at and she's studying there

8:43

is an item music clueless and they've gone

8:45

on this music track and see has sat

8:47

on the sand and he kind of restless.

8:50

She says that in interrogation room

8:52

she says people smoking nearby and

8:54

she sighed have an asthma attack

8:56

and Daniel science her. That is

8:58

kind of the savior story and

9:00

a romanticized element of Danielsen the

9:02

moment he enters her life I

9:04

think is exciting for had and

9:06

sisters fight on to him and

9:08

they keep their relationship a secret.

9:10

We have heard that her parents

9:12

did know about the annual because

9:14

East of played paintball of with

9:16

her brother and it was nine

9:18

that he had an. Issue with dealing

9:20

so it wasn't just that he was

9:23

working in a of as a Boston

9:25

pizza guy was the reasons I'm not

9:27

supporting the relationship. They haven't heard great

9:30

things about Daniel say they didn't approve

9:32

of that relates to set their relationship

9:34

as on again off again it was

9:36

quite volatile relationship and that respects and

9:39

he tells a story about the people

9:41

done. It sounds like tennis. oh that's

9:43

always very interested in Danville and trying

9:45

to get on your attention and daniels

9:48

little bit more. These which is potentially.

9:50

Why she made such grandiose just as the him

9:52

and and all the money on him and nam

9:54

says why it's a spend some of the on

9:56

your cell phone why did he spend all on

9:59

him and see. That may have I can think of any

10:01

better to spend on so I think she put him on about

10:03

that. Had a so. While

10:05

we do here, in their second interview with

10:07

Jennifer, there is his picture of her. That's

10:10

for me. She talks about the relationship with

10:12

her parents, she talks about, you know how

10:14

she it was deceiving them. She was you.

10:16

Tremendous lanes in this deception and it started

10:19

early. Like it started relatively early and I'm

10:21

wonder if you can talk a little bit

10:23

about some of the lengths that she went

10:25

to because it seems like it started site

10:28

young. This is not something that's sort. Of

10:30

like a year before the crime rate

10:32

nine partner Grace began to second two

10:34

thousand and one. She. Stops forging

10:36

report cards in two thousand and two

10:38

she dates another boy could age and

10:41

and two thousand and three and it's

10:43

not till later. In two thousand and

10:45

three were some east and the alongside

10:47

her grades have already slept as is

10:49

already fourteen report cards. Now that's not

10:51

desperately terrible behavior on so many children.

10:53

Have seats in a herb a the

10:56

school not pool as Nodding Bull agrees.

10:58

This is not unusual and obviously. It

11:00

in. This lattice lies and deceit were had.

11:03

Moral compass must take a spin and that's where

11:05

she ends up in a she's a fourteen year

11:07

old child there are expectations to be the bathroom

11:09

I don't feel his expectations came just from become

11:11

on I think he to her piano teacher says

11:14

to as on camera he was expecting has to

11:16

be the best She was the best that his

11:18

expecting has to be brilliant A teachers had said

11:20

when with into the people I said you know

11:23

we wanted more is it wasn't good enough for

11:25

has be a be or a c Great They

11:27

want us to get a's and see my is

11:29

a lot of pressure and it's wrong. To

11:31

just point that she can't. Properly

11:34

coast this is is is expected to excel

11:36

that. I think about those early stages of

11:38

a fourteen year olds taking her report god

11:40

because he's failing that was actually quite sympathetic

11:42

to that. Yeah, you know I was too.

11:44

And policy you nodding vigorously a couple of

11:46

times. I mean something that people say sometimes

11:48

about kids who have behavior like this is

11:50

that they began lying because they're afraid to

11:52

tell the truth. Rice is t way in

11:54

and out a little bit about. you know

11:56

those pressures and you will what you think

11:58

that she may have been doing. So

12:00

yeah, there are those pressures as I don't

12:02

think it's just parental pressures, but also with

12:05

your neighbors and purists at school as the

12:07

Hebrew in a similar background and and nothing.

12:09

Yeah, the parents make it worse because they're

12:11

going to compare you to this person or

12:13

that sphere and how come you're not doing

12:15

as good as damn? So yeah, it's very

12:17

difficult. Ah nodding because I'm

12:19

I'm of want to say this

12:21

but ah guilty as Sarah sitting

12:24

on Arts. Ah am. S.

12:29

So highly better as pretty good and

12:31

the graphics programs assists but I think

12:33

that speaks to a larger problem and

12:35

it was just the fear of dealing

12:37

are confronting with the parents and just

12:39

lack of communication. but I think I'll

12:41

things are lot better now or people

12:43

are getting more open and especially matter

12:45

how does more talked about now more

12:47

accepted back then as they're very taboo

12:49

subject especially amongst get nice so I

12:51

hope so make this can encourage people

12:53

to come to the table and you

12:55

notice appreciate your pants. Appreciate each

12:57

other and have that open

12:59

dialogue. So these things will

13:02

happen so. I'm curious. You know

13:04

I'm haunted survivors ones and humanities karma.

13:06

So what did you tell police about

13:08

what happens when he woke up went

13:10

on like i don't think u p

13:12

didn't know what Jennifer been saying in

13:14

her police into the he knew what

13:16

he saw That will say that might

13:18

not have really fully appreciated what he

13:20

was seeing kidded Then it's just speaking

13:22

in a sub size inclined to them

13:24

because she's frightened of is cooperating. He

13:26

didn't fully understand what was happening and

13:29

it's not until other family members continue

13:31

to visit him. In hospice own where

13:33

they will also reporting to him about odd

13:35

things and us have a saying now she

13:37

was living with them back anaheim. Mr.

13:39

Pan tells me that he was

13:41

on the Coots. Pistol whipped.

13:45

Can Do is sitting in a

13:47

separate church. And

13:55

while this is happening, For

13:57

walk downstairs in the. You

14:00

have one of the suspects. She's.

14:04

Without any to our hands. And

14:07

appears to me in front. Tire

14:10

Cfp Fc state to state the

14:12

Mcdonalds is that detectives and on

14:14

documentary pounds not describe the same

14:16

men that Jennifer described. Bill causes

14:18

the lead investigator this or an

14:20

interest in being involved in this

14:22

documentary because the him this case

14:24

isn't placed there is somebody that

14:26

went into that house said pass

14:28

and they believe and I hear

14:30

that as. They. Don't quite have

14:32

enough evidence to charge this person. Bet

14:34

this case always remain I didn't see

14:37

them and they these are interested to

14:39

catch the percentage that on described them.

14:45

So one of the things that was interesting

14:47

to me was in the third interview with

14:49

Jennifer in a bringing this new detective who

14:51

claims to be an expert in truth verification

14:53

basically a human lie detector and you know

14:56

my criminal justice mind is basically like there's

14:58

no such thing as your system cited like

15:00

they're see through that perk up your ears

15:02

to Paul and his and when claimed to

15:04

be a human lie detector. Well if

15:06

you're not so much of his early

15:09

goal justice system and also now I

15:11

if you're in the further interrogation and

15:13

that attempting to cover ones tracks I

15:15

mean Maria as I think some people

15:17

can believe this kind of things. and

15:19

especially if you're under pressure, you're juggling

15:22

with multiple story lines in your mind.

15:24

That was that. Yeah, Yeah. I

15:27

found myself wondering and mean as a two

15:29

part question some an ass the first part

15:31

first and pass the how is answerable. the

15:33

why is always more difficult to answer and

15:36

they are people who say yes You know

15:38

I understand the financial motive but you know

15:40

may be a child couldn't possibly have their

15:42

parents murder just because she finds them you

15:44

know difficult or because they disapprove of just

15:47

because she wants their money as as obviously

15:49

a bigger issue. The thing hi in here

15:51

but like how do you think this all

15:53

happened Like and how does she get so.

15:55

Many people involved in this crime.

15:58

Law and Me An Item seats Jennifer

16:00

and no one else can I except

16:02

for herself. But in my own experience

16:04

am I can relate to those kind

16:06

of pressures of just not wanting to

16:08

disappoint. My parents are and very fearful.

16:10

A nice fearful and like a physical

16:12

aspect for just fearful of you know

16:14

just having conferences and then they. The

16:16

criticisms can sometimes be harsh and it

16:18

can be very painful hurtful. You know

16:20

depends. I think of the people you're

16:23

so see it with can lead you

16:25

down that kind of pass and you

16:27

know you're having access to certain people,

16:29

then destiny both options. Could be available

16:31

so it's ah my think that maybe

16:33

she got mixed up with the wrong

16:35

people and that contribute to it. But

16:38

do you think any? because it's was quite a

16:40

big conspiracy him in what was in it for

16:42

all of these other people? I mean I also

16:45

have questions about what's in it for Daniel Long

16:47

because I understand that their relationship was troubled as

16:49

well and yet she was able to get him

16:51

to participate. You and that's something that really concerns

16:53

me. I mean, you have any understanding of that

16:56

like pool, I can't speak for why in his

16:58

them to? I think this is another element of

17:00

the title. it's not genocide is another thing and

17:02

it was evident. Understand the Wyden said it best.

17:05

A man who makes sense time to spare says

17:07

it's it's. Why Why does anyone

17:09

tell anyone? I think the Why. Is.

17:12

Gonna need something different to everybody else. like a

17:14

smoothie. A different. Feeling. Experience depending

17:16

on. Your list experience. Some people obsess

17:18

and have a very straight down the line

17:21

opinion and say dental is evil to see

17:23

have done this and then the the other

17:25

people that much stuff man see his movie

17:27

sleep I'd say that he should have killed

17:29

anyone as wrong nobody citizens alike next to

17:32

still be alive today. But. It'll be

17:34

people that will see the nuance in her

17:36

expenses and will and and I said look

17:38

she sang in that room and will start

17:40

to see the great as black and white

17:42

button. I think what is important is that

17:44

else essen and it will have people be

17:46

more open and talking about my in the

17:48

home and how what happens when we stop

17:51

talking as pool mentioned already the how important

17:53

mental health support and how cool told us

17:55

that it was seven is kind of a

17:57

to dinner or it was many is a

17:59

to them. Admin happened that Janda

18:01

probably an unlikely had access to talk

18:03

about mental health and she was sharing

18:05

have feelings to Daniel He's a consonant,

18:07

he knows how she's feeling as as

18:10

directing her to support saying like when

18:12

is he help and this is a

18:14

right let's have it, intervention or anything

18:16

needed to happen and instead he gave

18:18

a homeboys phone number and I think

18:20

that's the tragedy here is that when

18:22

she does reach out some my she

18:25

does he have feelings. Rather, Than

18:27

to steal her in the right direction and say

18:29

had that sees. Going. About this in

18:31

the wrong direction and I'm not suggesting she is

18:33

not accountable for her and Accents is not as

18:35

innocent bystander hair and aunts puppet here. But there

18:37

is s less interesting how is it was levied

18:39

against and assess as the own a dealer daniels

18:41

involved as well his in that room sending he

18:44

doesn't know what's going on and. The last

18:46

see that I received was or by Mary Mary.

18:53

Is almost as important. It

18:56

was a message is it says

18:58

Mrs. Obama John Boehner Nine saw

19:01

this isn't for the midst of

19:03

soldiers. Detectives in the film

19:05

speculate that it was financial for Daniel

19:07

that he's neither that he had some

19:09

control by the Jennifer this he new

19:11

house alone she was or him and.

19:14

Would. Do Anything for Daniel. From some

19:16

of the ways that his restaurant, bringing

19:18

him lunches, following him, to events, giving

19:20

him money, buying him presence and through

19:22

their research, they found that the money

19:24

that Hong had paid genocides and the

19:26

amount of that money went to Daniel.

19:28

So I think. A p with potential

19:30

for next much places he says in his

19:32

interview. With her and seven intervened that they might

19:35

still be together and he doesn't know that eating

19:37

it was a big deal for him that they

19:39

didn't the proof of that relationship. I hear that's

19:41

why he was if he was been proceeds to

19:43

years So I think this is why he potentially

19:45

was moving on from Jennifer. Nothing Jennifer felt that

19:47

she felt she was losing Daniel and he might

19:49

never come back and and that text message where

19:51

he says i feel about her the way you

19:53

feel about me I think with ever say citadel

19:55

freshly couldn't understand that she says on the sam

19:57

she doesn't understand how hint of develop these feelings.

20:00

The Cleaver Christine. So I think

20:02

she was trying very hard to maintain

20:04

this relationship and com gates about mate

20:06

and pick, Pick Daniel, pick us. And

20:08

we can't conclude for sure. But it

20:10

looked like Genesis turns Daniel. So I

20:13

was really surprised to read all the

20:15

media coverage and conversations around this case

20:17

online and how sensational lot of it

20:19

was. It really surprised me. You want

20:21

to talk a little bit about that?

20:23

Yeah, I think the issue that we

20:26

found only made it. We spent a

20:28

long time researching this documentary was spoken

20:30

to many, many people. As the is

20:32

that new Jonathan, their people and the document

20:34

you That new Jennifer with my concern is

20:36

active that are involved in this case as

20:38

well as the ones that aren't on screen

20:41

and did the big issue that a lot

20:43

of people had with sports reporters about Jennifer

20:45

is kind of pumps. I'm Jennifer on the

20:47

Stand and people have chosen to believe what

20:49

Jennifer said on the stand or said in

20:51

That Rooms filled in the gaps. Made

20:53

up a new narrative. We didn't find

20:56

a lot of what was repulsed about

20:58

Jennifer to be we were speaking to

21:00

people about genocide Christmas damn sure that

21:02

semi foremost than a house parties people

21:04

that littered with have mostly was I

21:07

know yeah she's been out on the

21:09

weren't related socializing on nights out. When.

21:11

Isis the first person to get a B

21:13

M w a white B M w she's

21:16

giving her friends list she wasn't this prisoner

21:18

in her high and that people have reported

21:20

that she was what that is. Texas found

21:22

and be clear by the way to any

21:25

that's also what it says on her Wikipedia

21:27

page. Her Wikipedia page says all of those

21:29

things. Yeah so that's how we found our

21:31

research that of as it's tricky to them

21:34

so that through multiple people that do not

21:36

want to speak out about this case anymore.

21:38

But but we did in the documentary as

21:40

we stick to. The fact that just told

21:42

the facts rather than explore what said on

21:45

line talk about that and then sounds it

21:47

down. the yeah we we kept finding Herbs

21:49

Dell. He had been out a lot, had

21:52

been to parties had been says of and

21:54

the socializing with her colleagues was driving and

21:56

giving people list to evening classes. This benefit

21:58

Tory that huge-is he says on the sand

22:01

the she said she was as close types

22:03

of the valedictorian i'm in that moment staffs

22:05

that's her unraveling. This was a trail had

22:08

multiple classmates are saying no where near gonna

22:10

be thy Lawrence that seems like genocide as

22:12

told a story to her parents or Jennifer

22:14

So story as we saw multiple stories inherit

22:17

into the as the Shields to continue that

22:19

on the sand and I think it's dangerous

22:21

if you pick and choose what to believe

22:24

Jennifer saying and then report some elements of

22:26

fact because it tallies with what you think

22:28

our experience must have been. In that clients

22:30

I think that's a disservice to to they

22:33

can hang on a parenting and I'm not

22:35

suggesting that life was perfect in that house.

22:37

and we don't know what happened behind closed

22:39

doors and nobody should be commenting on what

22:41

happened behind closed doors. Canada to sell in

22:43

the gaps am suggesting suspect because Jennifer has

22:45

told us I think is dangerous We didn't

22:47

either and is that Metrobus Esa We couldn't

22:49

find anyone That course that did. Oh corroborated

22:52

that fact and the detectors sold us out

22:54

right now. That was not true. We did

22:56

not fuck, Ned just was lying when she

22:58

said the on the stand said. As incredible

23:00

I just want to say that's incredible because

23:02

this is by the way and I you

23:05

know I did enough reading to know that

23:07

there is so much contradictory information out there.

23:09

And when you read about this case in

23:11

Utah, you read the media coverage at the

23:13

time Paul Especially like the Asian media, I

23:16

saw some of the translated Asian media their

23:18

this with up a big part of a

23:20

narrative and it is really something. I mean

23:22

were you surprised to find out that so

23:24

much of what was reported and so much

23:27

of what's out there on the internet as

23:29

fact is basically. Not true. Warrior

23:31

because I mean there are many

23:33

people were whoever Clementine, you are

23:35

probably not directly involved so them

23:37

you can just be like armchair

23:40

commentator on us why we kept

23:42

it to like having the detectives

23:44

themselves investigator speak threatened to the

23:46

facts they have their investigation and

23:48

stayed away from the indexer just

23:50

saying you know as. Things

23:53

that there's no research for, to kind

23:55

of support that we. Did such check other

23:58

elements and did find out of it the

24:00

trees and Jan and so was dropped off

24:02

to piano by her father and son under

24:04

his in the documentary concerned with Jumped so

24:06

was bought to and from her lessons in

24:08

the last few weeks last few months the

24:10

full her parents were shot and he does

24:12

say that she breaks found him as as

24:14

my parents that unapproved with my boyfriend which

24:16

was a focus not my parents are pushing

24:18

me to be an. Olympic ice skate

24:20

so making making a mess I like it

24:22

was about Daniel This is what she was

24:24

upset about and I think Bill Gates that

24:26

attaches said this is what he saw He

24:29

saw the parents did actually find out that

24:31

she had been lying and they follow to

24:33

she said she was volunteering at sick Kids

24:35

hostile and I for those her back. To.

24:37

They just didn't believe for animal that caught

24:39

her out and the in said before and

24:41

it's only then when she was cool and

24:43

most will live for she kept saying that

24:45

I'm not seeing him anymore or now. Voluntary

24:47

is just one last or another and they

24:49

were getting loans the higher they got her

24:51

laptop they paid off Daniel the gate Daniel

24:53

money to say like it is. She said

24:55

she owed Daniel money. they pay him off

24:57

with a lot. See him again. They basically

24:59

said Genesis Pirate You know she hadn't even

25:01

graduated high school. They have so much hype

25:03

for her and she has so much potential

25:05

that they were worried that are association. To

25:07

Daniel was bringing see her. life's a

25:09

spiraling What Sam's covered everything that she

25:11

was doing. They then said make a

25:13

choice Picked Daniel asked if you live

25:15

hey you need to not see him

25:17

anymore and she says she said i'm

25:19

gonna say here and I'm going to

25:21

cut him off And that's when she

25:23

started contacting Playboy. The extreme version of

25:26

Genesis testimony on the stand and what's

25:28

the reported We kept again time and

25:30

time and again kept running into people

25:32

them said no that's not true, that's

25:34

contrary. Know I went to this party,

25:36

that and Uncle Amazon that. My out know

25:38

she wasn't done as a be anywhere near Valedictorian.

25:40

They. See her to the saying that she's not

25:43

definitely not good enough to be helpful. Yeah,

25:45

a city as a delightful she's also they're

25:47

saying she wasn't working. Insulate them. Sign up

25:49

Ice rink. Saw a Pm she would have

25:51

been doing this. He says on the stand

25:53

that she's studying as she finishes ice skating

25:55

at ten Pm and then is studying till

25:57

midnight. Again, this isn't true. that ice skating

25:59

rink. The set time that they closed it

26:01

they close at seven pm says it's time

26:04

and again we couldn't match was as was

26:06

saying on the stand or what had and

26:08

these theories that had to circulate about fan

26:10

is you come to the first person he

26:12

still into the people and just doing a

26:14

fact checking in at it was never matching

26:17

up so we we really struggle. That's what's

26:19

the what's interesting about done of the story

26:21

as to reminds it would it's when they're

26:23

watching this. We. Have gone to her

26:25

as best pass and we're not into being other

26:27

people to give theories on what they think was

26:30

happening behind closed doors or what they think was

26:32

happening. and Genesis lives. We. Go straight

26:34

to source Jennifer his gonna tell you what's

26:36

happening the have to remember she has an

26:38

unreliable narrator that up see to decide what

26:40

here is true and that so the detector

26:42

Saturday we want the zealots a fool and

26:44

step but that is active and decide what

26:46

they think they believe or not. I think

26:48

they conclude pretty well at the end in

26:50

a having lived through her diary and and

26:53

and what they say about her parents wanting

26:55

her to not have her life, her and

26:57

by Daniel. I think they listen to her

26:59

parents in a way that perhaps media hasn't

27:01

been as that her parents. I'm not saying.

27:03

We don't know what happened behind closed doors.

27:05

I'm right. things I added pass x childhood

27:08

either. What I'm saying is I don't think

27:10

the media has inclined to they can harm

27:12

and time and again we have found an

27:14

accuracy. So

27:19

Paul, you know, given their Jennifer is an

27:21

unreliable narrator, I have to ask him if

27:23

she didn't participate in the documentary. But if

27:25

you had had the opportunity to speak with

27:27

are you know she's unreliable You can't ask

27:29

somebody in of they're innocent or guilty. A

27:32

When Eric legal case is still unresolved, she's

27:34

place. She claims that she's innocent. It is

27:36

there something that you would have wanted to

27:38

ask her. Or do you think that an

27:40

interview with her would be worthwhile knowing that

27:42

she's such an unreliable narrator? I'm just curious.

27:45

and your thoughts about that. Is interesting

27:47

question. I've been guys we were to pursue

27:49

and if she was in a new interview

27:51

I think it would speak for itself. Because.

27:54

You'll be able to contrast that with the

27:56

fact that the the detectors uncovered and or

27:58

whatever she says it would. Support

28:00

the fact that Eric that com have

28:02

already said he is continuing to a

28:04

certain narratives and when we know what

28:07

happened or what that sectors discovered in

28:09

what we learn to the research I

28:11

don't think that she can escape a

28:13

buyer for providing any specific new narratives

28:15

are any. Master does the whole thing

28:17

here is it's dangerous when you decide to

28:19

piquancy is when Jennifer is telling the truth

28:22

I'm and she's lying Same understand the same

28:24

in those interrogation rain We are listening to

28:26

her and having to dislike the jury was

28:28

like the detectives are like her parents did.

28:31

Having to decide when Jennifer is telling the

28:33

truth when she's not start having listened to

28:35

multiple into the is that an hour and

28:38

across as interrogation as I did find it

28:40

quite compelling listening to her talking about she

28:42

opens up to build a it's and that

28:44

sided to the it's. A or less Hills

28:47

like this might be the first time she's had

28:49

a very deep and meaningful and eight and conversation

28:51

about how she's feeling. So tell me about the

28:53

piano and it just or was cattle. File.

28:58

The. I target in grade school to. A

29:01

still remember silence on the lake. Or

29:03

please others. Buddha synthesis of the. Ah,

29:07

now. Your parents.

29:10

As you do you ever see all

29:12

that is pretty tough to live up

29:14

to their expertise. The I

29:16

get that feeling. That. Maybe

29:18

you weren't as far as what they thought

29:20

that you're. A she describes feeling

29:23

like haven't even had the hind to

29:25

see such a disappointment. M F A

29:27

meeting on with our licensee isn't that

29:29

that felt very authentic? Man again we'll

29:31

never know because it would be bone

29:33

to pick and sees what's beneath them

29:35

down the sense that we present state

29:37

and it's up to the dealer to

29:39

decide whether they the the from testimonies

29:41

into these with a documentary is what

29:43

jennifer dead and there's a lot in

29:45

there for the viewer can make decisions

29:47

about. I can attest I've seen it

29:49

and it is fascinating. Director Danny Papillon,

29:51

producer Pound. When thank you so much for

29:53

joining me to talk about it was really great

29:55

conversation. A t you for having us. That's

29:57

it for the six episode. Thanks again to. Records

30:00

Any Papa Well and Producer Paul

30:02

Mean. For more of. My take second my

30:04

other podcasts crime writers on each week I

30:06

that so we break down the latest in

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I'm Rebecca Lavoy think so much for listening.