0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. I'm

0:06

Hillary Clinton, and this is You

0:08

and Me Both. You know,

0:10

I've given a lot of advice over the years,

0:13

and I've also sought and received

0:15

a lot of advice, some of it better

0:18

than others. But when it came

0:20

to launching my career running

0:22

for the Senate in New York, one

0:25

person whose advice everyone told

0:27

me to seek out was that

0:29

of Luise Miranda.

0:34

A venerated political consultant.

0:36

Louise has given invaluable

0:39

guidance to many New York candidates

0:41

and politicians over the years,

0:43

including me as

0:46

well here later in this episode.

0:48

He's also advised his son, the

0:50

award winning composer, lyricist,

0:53

actor, producer, and director

0:56

Lynn Manuel Miranda. But

0:59

when it comes to seeking advice

1:01

on a more personal level, I

1:04

know I'm not alone and thinking, there's no

1:06

one quite like Cheryl Strade,

1:09

And that's where we start today's episode.

1:12

Cheryl Strade is an acclaimed author,

1:15

best known for her stunning and

1:17

brutally honest memoir Wild

1:20

From Lost to Found on the Pacific

1:22

Crest Trail, later made

1:24

into a hit film starring Reese

1:26

Witherspoon in Cheryl

1:30

began anonymously writing the Dear

1:32

Sugar advice column under

1:34

the pseudonym Sugar. Since

1:37

then, the column developed a loyal

1:39

following and has had several lives,

1:42

including as a podcast. It

1:44

went on hiatus for a while, but now

1:47

she's brought it back as a newsletter,

1:49

which is good news to fans of

1:51

Cheryl's like I am.

1:53

I've had the pleasure of getting to know her,

1:56

spending time first together during

1:58

my campaign for

2:00

president, and then she's interviewed me about

2:03

my books, and I've been a guest on her

2:05

podcast. I always

2:07

love talking with Cheryl, and I was so

2:09

delighted to have the chance to now

2:11

interview her for this podcast.

2:14

I began by asking Cheryl how things

2:17

have been for her and her family at home

2:19

in Portland, Oregon over the many,

2:22

many months of this pandemic.

2:24

To be honest, I'm not alone in

2:27

saying that these last couple

2:29

of years have been difficult ones in

2:31

in my life and my family's life. We're

2:33

doing okay, but I have a

2:35

son and a daughter who are a junior and a sophomore

2:38

in high school, and it's

2:40

been hard. I think this pandemic has been

2:42

especially difficult for teenagers

2:45

people in the early twenties. Of course, people

2:48

who are older as well, you know the terrible

2:50

health risks that they've faced in this pandemic. But

2:52

teenagers socially mental

2:55

health has been a struggle. And I

2:57

think, as we all know, adolescence is always

2:59

a difficul whole time, but it is a time when you want

3:01

to be with your peers and socializing

3:04

and having fun, and the pandemic has put a little

3:06

crimp in that, right. I

3:08

have to say, I, for one, was

3:11

really pleased when you brought back the

3:14

Dear Sugar column last year

3:17

after a couple of years hiatus

3:20

as a newsletter. What went

3:22

into that decision about bringing

3:25

back the opportunity for you

3:27

to hear from people and

3:29

and try to give some advice, right,

3:31

So you know the reason I brought it back, Really

3:34

it goes back to this essential belief

3:37

that I have, and that is that

3:39

stories save us, the literature

3:42

specifically, but are in general, is

3:45

the thing that allows us to see ourselves

3:47

most clearly. It tells us that

3:49

we can go on. It tells us that that

3:51

we can endure suffering. It tell us

3:54

us that we can triumph, we can lose,

3:56

we can love that these experiences

3:58

that we have, these struggles have, they

4:01

are universal and timeless, and

4:03

so as a writer, I have always

4:05

felt that my mission

4:08

my work in an interesting way,

4:10

not so unlike yours.

4:12

You've spent your lifetime as a

4:15

public servant trying to make the world

4:17

a better place, make people's lives better. I've

4:19

done that too, in a very different way through writing.

4:22

And what I try to do is to remind

4:24

us all of our humanity that the

4:27

universal threads that connect us. And of

4:29

course, in the Deer Sugar Advice

4:31

column, I do that very specifically because

4:33

there is one person saying help,

4:36

I'm struggling. I can't go on. And

4:39

what I try to do is not just give advice.

4:41

Anyone who reads the Deer Sugar column

4:44

knows that I don't just say Okay, do

4:46

this, this and this. What I say is,

4:48

let us think deeply about the

4:50

question you're asking me. And so I

4:52

really just engage with people's struggles

4:55

rather than telling them what to do. And

4:57

and I hope that that offers some illuminations,

5:00

consolation, something

5:02

for them to hold onto so they

5:05

can't take that next step forward. Well,

5:07

I think that's the best kind

5:10

of advice that anybody

5:12

can give to try to really

5:15

understand in a radically empathetic

5:18

way what is going

5:20

on, and the way that you do it through storytelling

5:23

really locates the

5:26

advice in a broader

5:29

context so that it's

5:31

not just the person writing into you

5:33

saying I'm a nurse and I have a

5:35

teenager and I've never been so tired

5:38

or despairing, or in a recent

5:40

column where somebody said,

5:42

you know, I'm estranged from my mother,

5:45

should I send her a birthday card? I mean the

5:47

way that you answer, the way you weave in

5:50

your own experiences, the way that you

5:53

have allusions to literature, to

5:55

other more universal stories.

5:58

It really is a un gift.

6:01

Cheryl. You are such a compelling

6:04

writer. Thank you, And then to put

6:07

yourself, you know, in the position now

6:09

for over ten years of giving people

6:12

advice must have started

6:14

off feeling kind of scary, like, you know,

6:16

did you wonder when you were asked

6:18

to pick up this column, how

6:21

can I give advice? Or I'm the one needing

6:23

advice? Which I think, of course

6:27

that was the first thing I thought, is who am I,

6:29

you know, to be giving advice? Which I think is

6:31

always the person you want to go to

6:33

for advice because the person who

6:36

thinks that they have all the answers is

6:38

the person who you're probably not going

6:40

to listen to. Right. We don't tend

6:42

to enjoy being lectured

6:45

or feeling inferior to somebody.

6:47

We tend to seek counsel from somebody

6:50

who they're down there. I always say I'm

6:52

down in the muck with the people

6:54

who seek advice from me. And so I

6:57

think of myself as someone as a writer who's

7:00

job is to engage in a really

7:02

deep, deep, profound way with the truth

7:04

and not just to sit around and say, wow,

7:07

this is what I think or this is how I feel,

7:09

but really dig more deeply

7:12

into the sort of the questions that sit below

7:14

the questions that have been posed to me. That's

7:16

a really important point, Yeah,

7:19

because when someone asks you something, it's

7:21

often not really what

7:23

they're asking you, isn't it. Yeah, exactly.

7:26

I mean, even just that question that you decided,

7:29

where a woman who's estranged

7:31

from her mother for good reasons, should I send her a

7:33

birthday card or not? You know, that's

7:35

the question you think you have for me. But

7:38

what you're really grappling with is how are

7:40

you going to live

7:42

with this? This gigantic,

7:45

sad decision that you've

7:47

had to make to strange yourself

7:49

from this person who is supposed to be the

7:51

closest relationship of your life. Right And

7:53

so it's a big question. And

7:56

what I often try to get people to do

7:58

is really grapple with the bigger questions.

8:01

Right. Well, the way that you answered that

8:03

particular question was especially meaningful

8:06

because you talked about your own

8:08

estrangement from your father, and it

8:11

happened to be around the time that

8:13

he passed away, after you had not

8:15

had any contact with him for

8:17

many years. And just you're

8:20

sharing what it meant to have

8:22

to cut off contact with your

8:25

own father. And you have

8:27

a line in there which I was so

8:29

struck by you were sad because you weren't

8:31

sad. You had, in effect

8:33

kind of made your peace with not having a

8:35

relationship with him.

8:38

You gave permission to not

8:41

just the person seeking

8:43

the advice, but all of us who were

8:45

reading that column to think about

8:47

our own lives, to think about our own

8:49

relationships. And you know, I

8:52

I was really sad when my

8:54

father died, in part because

8:57

I really had a difficult experience

9:00

and connecting with him

9:02

emotionally. You know, he was like the typical,

9:05

you know, product of the Great Depression. He

9:07

was a guy's guy who played football

9:10

at Penn State, and then you know, in World

9:12

War Two he was a chief petty officer

9:14

training you know, young men to go off to fight

9:17

in the Pacific. And there

9:19

was a side to him that I saw glimpses

9:21

of which was really

9:24

sensitive, more emotionally

9:26

astute than he seemed to be in most

9:29

of his daily interactions.

9:32

And I, you know, I loved him and

9:34

I was grateful to him, but

9:36

there was ambivalence about, Oh, wouldn't

9:38

it have been terrific if we could have really

9:41

connected, like you know, we

9:43

could have had so much more than

9:46

we were capable of having, And that

9:48

your column just made me think about

9:50

that, uh, and made me reflect

9:53

back on, you know, what I did have, for

9:55

which I was very grateful me. One of my favorite

9:57

memories of my father is even when I was a little

9:59

girl and I would I would say to him,

10:01

would you will you always love me? And he'd say,

10:03

oh, yes, And I'd say will you love me if

10:06

I murder somebody? He'd say,

10:08

well, I wouldn't like what you did, but

10:11

I would love you. And you know

10:13

that was an interesting kind

10:15

of basic way of saying, I will unconditionally

10:18

love you, but I won't always like what you do.

10:20

So even a column that

10:23

wasn't directly connected

10:25

with my own life caused me to think

10:27

about, you know, my own father. Oh.

10:30

I love hearing that. Hillary, and I

10:32

do believe that when we tell

10:35

the truth about our lives,

10:37

about what it's like to be a

10:39

daughter or a son, or a parent, or

10:42

a spouse or you know, fill in the blank, when

10:44

we really are honest about it, all kinds

10:46

of people will see themselves

10:48

in us, even if their story isn't

10:51

an exact parallel or corollary.

10:53

And I think that, you know, one of the things you

10:55

point out when I said I was

10:57

sad about not being sad, you know, I spent

11:01

years of my life grieving my dad. I

11:03

have and everyone

11:06

out there who's listening to these words right now,

11:08

or who read that column, who's who's had

11:10

to let somebody go who they loved

11:12

to know what it feels like to actually really

11:15

say I grieve you, and I release

11:18

you from my life, even though you will go on living.

11:20

You know, that's a big thing to do. And

11:23

I love knowing when I write those

11:25

words that people out there

11:27

are helped by them, not just the person who wrote

11:29

me the letter. And then other people like you say,

11:31

well, I identify with aspects of what she just

11:33

said. In

11:36

a sense, you do have a front row seat

11:38

on our collective psyche. And thinking

11:41

about when you first started the

11:43

Deer Sugar column ten years ago

11:46

and then you took the hiatus, have the

11:48

problems changed. Have people's concerns

11:51

changed over that ten

11:53

year period. That's an interesting question

11:56

and the answer is yes and no. So there's

11:59

always the same problems with love

12:02

and merit and will anyone ever loved me?

12:04

And how do I you know, should I stay in this relationship?

12:07

Or you know, the family conflicts they

12:09

never change with universal

12:12

But there is one category of

12:15

letter that I have received so many

12:17

letters like this over the last couple of years,

12:19

and that is the conflicts about

12:22

politics and belief

12:25

systems. You know, especially

12:27

in the lead up to the election,

12:29

you know, people were saying, do I go

12:31

to my mother's birthday

12:34

celebration because I know, you know a

12:36

lot of her family are Trump voters and I'm

12:39

not, and we'll fight, and you know, I don't want to disturb

12:41

you know, what, what do I do if I'm dating

12:43

somebody who has different political values. In

12:45

a couple of cases, it wasn't so much

12:48

about who they voted for, but beliefs

12:50

that were espoused about race or

12:52

you know, somebody's saying you're racist

12:55

for saying this, or you're homophobic for saying

12:57

that, and then that causing um

12:59

a lot of family turmoil and sometimes

13:01

in romantic relationships too. And

13:03

then of course there's this category of people saying,

13:06

I'm in despair about the state of

13:08

our country, right I'm worried

13:10

about the divisiveness, I'm worried

13:12

about the anti factors, I'm worried about climate

13:15

change and the powers that be not really taking

13:17

those those issues seriously. And

13:19

so that's a pretty new category. I mean, I

13:21

used to get a couple of letters like that, but

13:24

now there's dozens of them,

13:26

which probably doesn't surprise you. It doesn't

13:28

surprise me because I get the same

13:30

letters. I get the same

13:32

kind of encounters from

13:35

people literally walking down the street.

13:37

Do you have any thoughts about how number

13:39

One, you do deal with people who are

13:42

in your life but literally

13:44

you can't listen to I have one friend

13:46

whose father isn't just a

13:49

staunch supporter of Trump, but taunts her

13:51

and you know, is constantly

13:54

in her face about you know, how

13:56

great Trump is and how wrong

13:59

everybody is. And up until now she

14:02

has felt like she could tolerate

14:04

his idiosyncrasies and eccentricities

14:06

and some of his behavior, which you know sometimes

14:09

you know, very over the top. But

14:11

now she feels like, what do I don't want

14:13

to end a relationship over a political

14:16

difference. Well, you know, it

14:18

is complicated. What I try to do

14:21

first is remember that,

14:23

yes, absolutely, things are extraordinarily

14:26

divisive now, and I would say that we're

14:28

in a place that we've never quite been to

14:30

this extreme. And yet it's also true that

14:33

there has always been profound

14:35

and deep and real political disagreements

14:38

in the nation and among families, and

14:40

you know, to take a breath and have some perspective

14:42

about this. I mean, I remember my own grandmother,

14:45

my mother's mother, who I loved. You

14:47

know, we would get in these terrible arguments. She would say

14:49

things like feminist ruined, feminist ruined.

14:51

This country's so yeah,

14:54

yeah, so you've been there, and

14:57

we can laugh about it now because it's like okay,

14:59

you know, so you know, with her, what I

15:01

thought is Okay, I disagree with you, and I'm upset

15:04

that you said that, But there are things

15:07

I love about you, and there are important

15:09

connections we have, and I'm just going to really focus

15:11

on those things. And maybe we're not going to talk about

15:13

feminism, maybe we're not going to talk about reproductive

15:16

rights because we disagree. So avoidance

15:18

is a key thing in those relationships. But

15:20

what I would say to your friend you said that, um,

15:23

you know, her father taunts her about politics,

15:26

and I think the direction I would

15:28

go in that relationship is set

15:30

aside the subject of that taunting, to

15:32

say, listen, would I allow this

15:35

person to taunt me about you

15:37

know, fill in the blank, about my looks

15:39

or about my food I cooked for him,

15:42

or you know, whatever that is. It's rude behavior.

15:44

It doesn't matter what they're talking about. And

15:47

that she can draw boundary and say she's

15:49

not saying, listen, we're not going to talk politics. She's saying,

15:52

listen, you're going to treat me with loving, kindness

15:54

and respect. And if you can't,

15:56

you know, we need to take a little distance. I think

15:59

when somebody's me to you and rude to

16:01

you or disrespectful, you

16:03

have the right to set a boundary, and you should.

16:06

I'm with you completely on that.

16:11

We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.

16:23

You know, is there some particular

16:26

piece of advice that you can recall

16:28

that you've given over the years that surprised

16:31

you in the way it resonated with people. Well,

16:34

I hear from people, honestly

16:37

every day, and it's been so interesting

16:39

to see the ways that my

16:41

advice has been taken into so many people's lives.

16:44

The one that honestly did surprise me that I

16:46

hear about a lot as a letter I

16:48

wrote many years ago called the Truth

16:50

that Lives There, and I answered three

16:52

letters instead of one in this column,

16:55

which I rarely do, but I did it because

16:57

I have so many letters in this category.

16:59

I wanted people to see the different stories

17:02

that were being sent to me, the different letters, and

17:05

what the letters were about is is this conundrum.

17:07

I care about this person I'm in a relationship

17:10

with. I love this person i'm in a relationship

17:12

with, and I want to end

17:14

the relationship, but I feel bad

17:16

about doing it because he or she hasn't done

17:19

anything quote unquote wrong. And

17:21

I wrote a letter back in which I said,

17:24

essentially, it's okay

17:26

to do that. You know, if you want to leave,

17:28

it's okay to leave, because wanting to leave

17:30

is enough. You know, there's a way

17:32

to say to somebody, this is

17:34

the truth about how I feel, and

17:37

this is what I need for my life. It's a

17:39

very simple thing. And yet I

17:41

was surprised by how many

17:43

people said that changed my life.

17:46

Nobody had ever said to me that

17:48

I could trust myself like that, that I could

17:50

grant myself that kind of permission. And

17:52

of course I'm not talking about just any

17:54

time there's conflict in a relationship you could say,

17:56

oh it's over, I up and leave. I'm talking about, you

17:59

know, if you're really feeling like something's

18:01

not right for you. And and this is kind

18:03

of connected to this question you just

18:05

asked me about your friend whose father taughts

18:07

her about politics. Is ultimately

18:10

about very calmly stating

18:14

what you want to need in your life. And

18:16

you want a need a father who doesn't taunt

18:19

you. You want and need relationships

18:21

that you feel content to

18:23

be a part of or happy to be a part

18:25

of. And we I think

18:28

especially as women and girls, but I would I say

18:30

men and boys get this too. For some

18:32

reason, we're told not to trust ourselves

18:34

a lot, and I think so much

18:36

of the work that I do is

18:39

about trying to shed light on that and

18:41

maybe undo some of that. I mean, I

18:43

think the most radical act is to tell the truth

18:45

about who you are and what you want.

18:48

And how hard that is. It's so

18:51

hard, and it is and we now know

18:53

from a lot of research that's being done

18:56

that your body knows

18:59

that you're not living your truth. That

19:01

the aches and pains, physical

19:04

even ailments can

19:06

often be connected to you

19:09

lying to yourself. You're not being

19:11

truthful to yourself, and your body

19:13

is like, this is not working for

19:16

me, and so please figure

19:18

that out right. It's it's interesting too

19:20

that you say research shows this, because you're

19:22

right. But the question I have for you is

19:26

that research doesn't even need to show it

19:28

because we know it. Like do you know that feeling

19:30

you know? Have you had times in your life? In fact, I

19:32

know the answer is yes, when you know something's

19:35

not right and you feel it in your body or

19:37

you know something is right that you're like, Okay,

19:39

I just have a good feeling about this or this is

19:41

what's right for me, and it's I'm not making

19:43

it out of avoidance

19:46

or denial. I've really thought about

19:48

it, I've done deep about it, and this is

19:50

what's right for me. I

19:52

have to ask you, um,

19:55

you know, do your kids ever ask you for

19:57

your advice? Or

19:59

are they to footbal teenagers don't think you have

20:01

anything to tell them? Please? No,

20:03

of course they don't ask me. No.

20:06

I might give them advice Hillary, but

20:09

they do not. They do not listen to it

20:11

or follow it in any way. I

20:13

mean, I think that that's

20:15

been the heart. I mean you, you know, you've

20:17

lived through it with Chelsea, right like you've parented

20:20

a teen, and there she is now, this nice

20:22

young woman of full grown up, a mother herself.

20:25

I've had to really lean on women

20:28

friends of mine who have older kids, and I just

20:30

say, okay, so are they going to absorb

20:32

some of these values? Because I mean,

20:34

honestly, my husband Brian and I sometimes

20:37

have felt really a kind of crisis of consciousness

20:39

about this because we are both

20:42

very political, very much activist

20:44

to My husband's a documentary filmmaker and has made

20:47

all kinds of important films about social issues,

20:49

and I have too, and certainly we can see

20:51

that our kids have absorbed that. You

20:54

know that they both are incredibly their

20:56

progressives, and they're there. They even

20:58

push us further on areas issues.

21:00

They're very outspoken. But when

21:02

it comes to values like

21:05

I don't know, clean up after yourself,

21:08

you know, like do your own dishes, like leave

21:10

a place better than you found it, that value has

21:12

not been absorbed at

21:15

all, you know, Cheryl, I

21:18

am such a fan of yours for so

21:20

many reasons, but your openness,

21:23

your honesty, your kindness,

21:26

your constant quest for

21:29

wisdom, which is a word

21:31

I revere because it

21:33

can only come if you have lived awhile and

21:35

you've seen a lot, and you're trying to absorb

21:38

what it all means. Is such

21:40

a a light

21:43

shining. And I want to end by

21:45

you know, asking you what do you

21:47

see for the future. How do you see both

21:50

individuals and us collectively

21:53

finding our way to more

21:55

stable ground after all we

21:58

have experienced. Well,

22:00

I think that's the only way any of

22:02

us can find our way to stable ground, whether it

22:04

be individually or collectively

22:07

as a nation, is to do so

22:09

much of what we've been talking about Hillary comes

22:12

down to being brave enough

22:14

to tell the truth as often as possible

22:16

to the people who need to hear it. Trusting

22:19

yourself and expecting

22:22

the kind of love and compassion

22:25

and kindness and light you put into

22:27

the world, expecting it in return, And

22:30

that to me describes an empowered

22:32

person. You know, I mean, I

22:34

know that you have spent a lifetime believing

22:37

that we as individuals can

22:39

make a political difference in the world, whether

22:42

it be as simple as making sure we

22:44

always cast that vote, whether it being are the tiniest

22:47

local election or the national elections,

22:50

or you know, giving back to our communities and whatever

22:52

way way we can. And I think that you

22:54

know, that kind of work, that kind of what I'll just

22:56

call sort of public work UM, is

22:59

really connected to the private work we

23:01

do in our lives in nurturing

23:03

our own sense of emotional well being UM,

23:05

nurturing the relationships that are meaningful

23:07

and that matter to us. And so this

23:10

very intimate advice giving I

23:13

do, as dear Sugar, I think, does have

23:15

social impact and does have political

23:17

impact, because the kind of person you

23:19

are in your very own home and your

23:21

very own school and your very own community really

23:24

extends out into the kind of citizen you are. And

23:26

so there's a lot at stake when it comes

23:28

to UM figuring out how to be

23:31

in the world and what we believe we're capable

23:33

of. And so when I think of the way

23:35

forward, what I always think is the

23:37

work I can do today. It really

23:39

matters. And I think that's true of everyone

23:41

every morning when we when we wake up, we

23:43

have something to give, and the

23:46

only way we can give it is if we take care of ourselves.

23:49

Amen. Amen, my friend. Well,

23:53

I cannot thank you enough for joining me

23:55

for this podcast, and I know that

23:57

our listeners are going to relish hearing

24:00

from you. Uh and I

24:02

look forward to our past crossing

24:04

and a continuation

24:07

of this conversation. Thank you so much

24:09

for having me on your show. It's always

24:11

really a pleasure to speak to you.

24:13

You always share some wisdom and I'm grateful

24:16

for that. You

24:21

can get more of Cheryl's Dear

24:23

Sugar column by subscribing

24:25

to her substack at Cheryl

24:28

Strait dot substack dot

24:30

com.

24:32

Advice comes in many forms

24:34

and from many sources. Some

24:37

folks build entire careers

24:39

out of giving advice, from acclaimed

24:41

writers like Cheryl to political

24:43

consultants like my next guest,

24:46

Luise Miranda. Born

24:49

in Puerto Rico, Luis came to New

24:51

York in the early nineteen seventies

24:53

and almost immediately became

24:55

a force as an activist

24:57

and leader. A veteran

25:00

of multiple mayoral administrations

25:02

in the City of New York, Luise

25:04

became a fixture in New York politics,

25:07

launching his own consulting firm

25:09

and becoming known for his astute

25:12

advice and his uncanny

25:14

ability to bring people together,

25:16

which, boy, do we need now more

25:19

than ever. As I

25:21

mentioned at the top of this episode, when

25:23

I began thinking about launching

25:25

my campaign for public office, my

25:27

very first to run for the Senate

25:30

from New York, Luise became an

25:32

invaluable advisor. It

25:34

is always a pleasure catching up with him,

25:37

and it's not easy because he never stops

25:39

moving from his campaigns,

25:41

to his philanthropy to his artistic

25:44

endeavors. He's one of the most energetic

25:46

and hard working people I

25:48

know. When we spoke, his

25:51

son Lens catchy song we

25:53

Don't Talk About Bruno from

25:56

Disney's hit movie in

25:58

Canto was at the top of

26:00

the charts. So let

26:02

me start just by checking in. Have

26:05

you and your family been running around

26:07

singing we Don't talk about Bruno? NonStop?

26:10

Is? Yes? Uh?

26:12

In fuck? I take Lee

26:15

Manuel's little one to school

26:18

and we play.

26:20

We don't talk about Bruno non

26:23

stop until we get to school.

26:25

So for forty five minutes we're singing,

26:28

we don't talk about Bruno. My two

26:30

older grandchildren are exactly the

26:32

same way. My granddaughter wakes up singing

26:35

it. Well, I want to

26:37

talk about you too. I mean, obviously we

26:39

both are huge admirers of

26:42

Lynn Manuel, but I'm also a huge admirer

26:44

of you, Louise. I mean, you

26:47

know, I think I first met

26:49

you back in the late nineties when

26:52

I was thinking about running for the Senate,

26:55

and everybody I talked to in New

26:57

York said, there's one person you have to talk

26:59

to. That's Louise Miranda, And

27:01

I said, okay. And I

27:04

was so grateful to have your help and your

27:06

guidance during that campaign.

27:08

And you've been involved

27:11

in New York politics for

27:13

a long time, you know,

27:16

in as I recall

27:18

the story, you went from picketing

27:20

then mayor and

27:22

got to working for him.

27:25

So yeah, tell me

27:27

and our listeners how you got involved

27:29

in New York politics, and particularly

27:32

this cotch story, because that's

27:34

a really interesting way. It's really

27:36

interesting, Hillary, because when

27:39

I came to New York

27:41

in the early seventies. I

27:43

was so typical migrant

27:45

from Porto Rico. Takes a

27:48

little while for you to pay any

27:50

attention to your local politics,

27:53

and it took a little while for me to

27:55

understand the importance

27:58

of politics in our lives,

28:01

from when do they pick up

28:03

the garbage and how frequently

28:06

they pick up the garbage to

28:09

the big palace of the sessions

28:11

that impact all of ours. So

28:14

I got involved when we moved

28:16

to Washington Heights in the Parents

28:19

Movement District six UH

28:22

with an overcrowded district,

28:25

one of three very overcrowded

28:27

districts in the city of New York. And

28:30

my daughter was going too one of

28:32

those schools, and

28:34

got involved in school board

28:37

politics to increase

28:39

and advocate to increase the number

28:41

of schools. And then

28:43

this catch opportunity

28:45

came up and sort of a friend

28:48

said, why don't you apply. I'm

28:51

like, I don't know that you apply

28:54

to be special advisor to

28:56

the mayor. I think that your call

28:59

upon who served in positions

29:02

like that. You don't just send a resume.

29:05

Uh, but I did send the resume.

29:08

This story leaves out a little of the

29:10

color, Luise, because

29:13

you were picketing him, fighting

29:15

for more schools, and you

29:18

were often the person when

29:20

the mayor would show up somewhere who was

29:22

leading the charge, yelling, you

29:25

know, demanding and honestly

29:28

having known a conscious I was lucky

29:30

enough to I think they saw

29:32

a like minded person

29:35

in you, and you know got

29:37

you that job. I will tell

29:40

you when I had the interview the

29:42

mayor, set listen, you and

29:44

I are not going to agree

29:46

on everything, but I

29:48

think you and I are going to

29:50

agree on fundamental

29:54

things for the Latino community. And

29:56

he went through a list of those

29:59

and then he said, however, when

30:01

you disagree with me, you have to

30:03

do it privately. Right, that's fair?

30:06

And I thought, well,

30:09

this seems like a fair ask

30:12

from someone who's going to be my boss.

30:14

Yes. Right, And you did

30:16

become a political consultant,

30:19

and you know, it's a word we throw around a

30:21

lot, but I think it'd be interesting for

30:24

people outside of politics to know what

30:26

does that mean? Kind of walk us through,

30:29

you know, a kind of typical experience

30:32

with somebody who's thinking about

30:34

running for office. What kind of advice do

30:37

they typically want? What is

30:39

it you provide for them?

30:41

I really start Hillary with

30:43

trying to understand who

30:46

that person is at the

30:48

end of the day. My training as

30:50

a clinical psychologist, which I

30:52

thought was the waste of my time, actually

30:56

came handy. I just

30:58

want to make sure that you are

31:00

who you say you are, because

31:04

voters are not stupid.

31:07

Voters are looking

31:10

for people who are telling

31:12

a story that it's real

31:15

so that they can connect with them. At

31:17

the end of the day, whatever you're talking

31:20

about has to go hand

31:22

in hand with whatever it's

31:24

happening in society, and

31:27

you have to have a connection from

31:29

a particular point of view. If you

31:31

are a conservative, that's not a candidate

31:34

that I'm interested in helping, but I

31:36

understand that that is a perspective.

31:39

So I want to connect with whomever the

31:41

candidate is. And then I want

31:43

to spend some time figuring

31:46

out what is the best way

31:49

to tell your message.

31:52

And then there's the part that is part of the

31:54

science. You also

31:56

need to look at pulse. You

31:59

want to see what the electorate it's

32:01

thinking. You want to know what your

32:03

district it's like. You know, people

32:06

tend to throw all latinos

32:09

in the same box. Big mistake,

32:12

big mistake. So if

32:14

you're running on the district where

32:16

half of the people are humans or venezuelans.

32:20

That's a very different mindset.

32:23

So I want to know all of that.

32:26

Well, you've given advice

32:28

to nearly everybody on the Democratic

32:30

side in New York. I know Chuck

32:32

Schumer, Kirsen, gillibrand

32:35

obviously Attorney General Tis

32:37

James, and many many others. It

32:39

has to sometimes be hard to deliver

32:43

difficult news or to tell

32:45

somebody who's running you know

32:48

this isn't working. You've got to shift

32:50

gears. How do you talk to

32:52

somebody when you know the

32:54

advice is difficult,

32:57

or you actually meet resistance

33:00

as the person doesn't want to hear it. I

33:02

think the most you could do is

33:04

to talk it out. First of all,

33:06

there's better moments than others.

33:10

Sometimes things are happening in real

33:12

time and you have to give news

33:15

in real time. But for the

33:17

most part, there

33:19

is better times than others, and

33:21

you're looking for those better times.

33:24

Where you're candidate, it's more relaxed,

33:26

it's less tired, it's willing to listen.

33:30

And the second part, I

33:32

just believe in pull the

33:34

band aids off. I

33:37

not want to sugarcoat,

33:40

but just to say it and

33:42

let's talk it over. So

33:45

then we figure out what it's the

33:47

best way to proceed.

33:50

But I believe in telling

33:52

the truth. I believe it in

33:55

my family, I believe it in my work.

33:58

Sometimes I'm a little around

34:00

the ages, you know. My wife tells

34:03

me, can you sugarcoat it a little?

34:05

And I'm like, I'm

34:07

not the best doing that, but

34:10

I'm willing to talk it over until

34:12

he feels better. Yeah, I

34:14

get it. You said something that

34:17

I want to unpack a little bit because I don't

34:19

think people really understand the importance

34:21

of you pointing out that when

34:24

we talk about the Latino community,

34:26

this is not a monolithic

34:29

community. There is so

34:32

much difference in background,

34:34

approach. Lots of times

34:37

you know where they stand on political issues

34:39

of all kinds, and you have particular

34:41

expertise in reaching Latino

34:44

voters. And what is the first thing

34:46

you think about that any candidate

34:48

should do if they want to reach and convince

34:51

Latino voters to support them. Let's

34:54

understand who's the audience. Are

34:56

we in a community that is

34:59

predominantly met Mexican, were

35:01

in a community that is predominantly Puerto

35:03

Rican? How old is

35:05

this community in your district?

35:07

It's not the same thing to be in Arizona

35:10

when you're talking to third generation

35:12

Mexican Americans and

35:15

newly migrated Mexican

35:18

Americans. So you need to

35:20

know a bit of who the audience

35:23

is before you

35:26

open your mouth, particularly

35:29

if you don't have a history with that

35:31

group. If you have a history

35:34

with that group, it's a totally different

35:36

mulgame. You know, percent people

35:39

would tell me during the last election,

35:42

will get the lion's share

35:44

of Cubans for Biden because

35:47

you got meaning you, Hillary

35:50

Clinton, you got the lions

35:52

share of Cubans for you.

35:55

Different reality, You had

35:57

a relationship for

36:00

years. So it's

36:02

not the same thing when you're introducing

36:05

someone, not because they

36:07

don't know who he is, but they want

36:09

to really figure out ideologically

36:12

who that person is exactly.

36:15

Well, you know, I think sometimes people forget

36:17

it comes back to relationships.

36:20

You have to know people and they

36:22

have to know you. And

36:24

how do you think we could

36:26

better convey and direct

36:28

Democrats to do a better job

36:31

and understanding and communicating with

36:33

the Latino voters. Uh,

36:36

to make sure they know what

36:38

the issues are, to

36:40

make sure they know who the audience it's

36:43

going to be. Uh.

36:45

You don't go to South Texas to talk

36:48

about open borders, right,

36:50

do you go to South Texas to figure

36:53

out how do we continue

36:55

to have a relationship with our neighbors.

36:58

How do we make sure our new

37:00

neighbors come in an orderly

37:02

fashion into the country.

37:05

Because we do make a better

37:07

country and a diverse country.

37:09

It's a better country. But you

37:12

need to convey to people

37:15

that you do believe that

37:17

it must happen in an orderly

37:20

fashion. And I think that part

37:22

of the issue. Also, it's we criticized

37:25

the Republicans at seventies seven percent

37:28

of them or seventies six percent of them

37:30

are with Trump. They

37:32

are a monolithic party

37:35

right now, We're not right.

37:37

We have a diversity of opinions,

37:40

and as a result, we have to

37:43

learn about what that diversity

37:45

of opinions are and

37:48

who are the best messengers

37:50

for different Latino communities.

37:53

That's exactly right. We'll

37:57

be right back. Well,

38:08

you know, we've got a new governor and a new mayor

38:10

in New York. Kathy Hoco is the

38:13

governor and Eric Adams is our new

38:15

mayor. Have you given advice to

38:17

either or both of them? I actually

38:20

ended up in the Mayor's

38:23

transition committee in Arts

38:26

and Culture as well, as

38:28

in the Appointment Committee. So

38:30

I have had the opportunity to

38:32

work with some of the team

38:36

and it has been a great experience.

38:39

The only thing that happens Hillary

38:41

when we get older is that

38:44

I care less and less

38:47

about what somebody else

38:49

thinks. Amen.

38:52

Brother, I

38:55

think that with age comes

38:58

wisdom quote and quote,

39:01

and the ability to be

39:03

a little bit more honest about

39:06

how you see the world. And

39:08

you've never been shy before you got older.

39:11

I have never been shy.

39:14

As I get older, I

39:16

get bolder. I

39:19

love that older and bolder.

39:21

I love it. So you could

39:23

tell me I don't think that I'm going to do

39:26

that, and that's cool, I understand.

39:28

But you asked from my advice, I'm giving

39:30

it to you. Well. The other thing that you and

39:32

I have worked on is uh

39:35

your commitment to helping

39:38

candidates get elected across

39:40

our country. And you chair a

39:42

group that I've worked with and that I

39:44

think is doing terrific, you know, candidate

39:47

Recruitment and Support, and that's called

39:49

the Latino Victory Fund. When

39:51

you think about encouraging people

39:54

to run for office, do you think

39:56

we're making progress convincing

39:58

democrats and in your case, Latino

40:01

democrats to run for the

40:03

unglamorous offices the school board,

40:06

like you started off in politics advocating

40:08

for the local jobs

40:11

that you know, even boards of election

40:13

which the Republicans are literally trying

40:15

to take over. Are we making

40:18

progress convincing people on our side of

40:20

the political aisle to do that. I think

40:22

we are good. Okay, we know that

40:25

to create the bench,

40:28

you don't start by running for president.

40:32

And sometimes I meet with candidates

40:34

who said I want to run for Congress.

40:37

I'm like, yeah, have you thought about your local

40:39

assembly, your local city council?

40:42

Because politics it's

40:44

no different than any

40:47

other profession. You

40:49

learn, ask you do.

40:52

I hear my son respond

40:55

all the time. People said to him,

40:57

Hamilton's was a much more complex

41:01

creation that in the heights. And of

41:03

course I know more about how to make r

41:06

well. The same thing happens in politics.

41:09

You become more season

41:12

and by creating that bench,

41:14

you need to work

41:17

with people to run for

41:19

all of those offices. Uh.

41:21

We are doing a lot of that in

41:24

Florida. We are doing a lot

41:26

of that in Georgia. In places

41:29

where we're beginning to increase

41:31

population, you begin

41:34

by creating a bench and

41:37

by running people in smaller

41:39

jurisdiction, more homogeneous

41:42

jurisdictions where the issues

41:45

are probably less, but they

41:47

begin to get their policies

41:50

ready when they go

41:52

for higher office. Absolutely,

41:55

you're, you know, a pretty effective parent. I mean,

41:58

I know little

42:00

bit about your family. You had a lot of help from. You know, your

42:02

wife obviously Lose is a great,

42:04

great, you know, partner and parent with

42:07

you. She is she is the anchor

42:09

you can tell. I mean, she really has

42:12

such a an anchoring role in

42:15

your lives. Um, do you have parenting

42:17

advice? How did you raise you know, such

42:19

a great daughter and such an amazing son. It's

42:22

it's by being insightful

42:25

and being able to put yourself

42:28

in their shoes at whatever

42:30

age they are, in whatever

42:33

circumstances they're in. And

42:35

sometimes the advice

42:38

is no, you know what I mean,

42:40

Sometimes the advice is no. But

42:42

I always remember, and Emmanuel tells

42:44

it very with a lot of tenderness

42:47

that when he was off

42:49

for a full time job at

42:51

Hunter Elementary School as

42:54

an English teacher. You know, those are the

42:56

kinds of jobs that people

42:59

kill for where you stayed

43:01

there until you retire, and

43:04

he was offered one of those jobs.

43:06

He loved teaching And

43:09

the incredible thing this is before

43:11

emails, people actually wrote

43:13

letters to each other. So

43:16

I actually wrote me this letter and

43:19

said, what do I do? Do I take this

43:21

job or do

43:23

I continue to be

43:26

attempt make enough

43:28

to pay the rent and continue

43:30

to work in in the Heights, which

43:32

was a musical that he'd been working on since he

43:34

was in college, right and his

43:37

first hit that he got his first

43:39

Tony. And I

43:42

thought to myself, a good

43:44

parent will say take

43:46

a full time job, you will

43:49

love that job, you are a

43:51

great teacher, and keep

43:54

writing in the Heights on the side.

43:56

But I knew that that was wrong,

44:00

that I was him.

44:02

I needed to have In

44:05

the Heights as my priority.

44:08

So being able to say, no, baby,

44:10

you don't take the full time job.

44:13

You continue to work in in the

44:15

Heights. You make enough

44:18

to pay your rent. You could continue

44:20

and raid our refrigerator,

44:23

but that's what you need

44:26

to do as a twenty

44:28

five year old kid. So being

44:31

able to look

44:33

at the issue from your

44:35

kids perspective, it's

44:38

key to be in a good parent. Well,

44:41

it does sound like you learned a few things in that psychology

44:43

course, you

44:46

know, Luise. I just can't thank you enough

44:48

for talking with me. You have done

44:50

so much to move both candidates

44:53

and issues forward. And yes,

44:55

as we grow older, we grow bolder

44:58

because you, you and I are not going off

45:00

into the you know, into the

45:03

sunset. As I say all the time,

45:05

either someone in the office is

45:07

going to call my wife and say he

45:10

died, or my wife is going to call

45:12

the office and said he didn't wake

45:14

up. I'm going to be working

45:17

until that last moment. I

45:20

love it. Music to my ears. Thank you,

45:22

my friend, Thank you for having me.

45:29

Louise truly is non

45:31

stop to keep up with

45:33

all the great work he's doing. You can

45:36

follow him on Twitter. And

45:38

as you think about the advice

45:40

you give and receive in

45:43

your own life, always remember how important

45:45

it is to pay attention to the advice

45:47

your own body and mind give you two

45:50

and to live your own truth as I talked

45:53

about with Cheryl. And if you'd

45:55

like to share advice you

45:57

want to give, or you have ideas about

46:00

out what we should talk about on our podcast,

46:03

please email us at

46:05

You and Me Both pod at

46:07

gmail dot com.

46:13

You and Me Both is brought to you by

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46:18

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46:20

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46:42

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46:58

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47:00

for listening, and may you give and

47:02

get some hard earned wisdom

47:05

in the days ahead. And I'll see you

47:07

next week. M