0:01

I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is

0:03

you and me both. I know

0:06

you may not want to hear this, but Thanksgiving

0:09

is just around the corner, and

0:11

with it comes lots of cooking, lots

0:13

of eating, and at least in some

0:16

households, lots of warnings

0:18

about what topics we can't bring

0:20

up with guests around the dinner table.

0:23

You know, now more than ever, disagreements

0:26

over everything from climate

0:28

change to what books kids could

0:30

read, to you know, just name

0:32

it. Everything seems to

0:35

derail what should be you

0:37

know, pleasant festive gatherings.

0:40

So what are we supposed to do? Talk about the

0:42

weather all night? Fortunately,

0:45

there are people out there who

0:47

are highly skilled at navigating

0:49

difficult conversations, and

0:51

today we're going to hear from two

0:54

of them. Later, I'll be speaking

0:56

with United States Ambassador to the

0:58

United Nations, Linda Thomas

1:00

Greenfield, who's been doing the incredibly

1:03

delicate.

1:04

Work of diplomacy for decades.

1:07

But first, I'm talking to a

1:09

mom of three kids from

1:11

Paducah, Kentucky, who co

1:13

hosts a podcast that's

1:15

all about tackling divisive

1:18

topics. Sarah

1:21

Stuart Holland started the Pantsuit Politics

1:23

podcast with Beth Silvers

1:26

back in twenty fifteen. When

1:28

they began, Sarah was a self

1:31

described progressive Democrat

1:33

and Beth was a registered Republican.

1:37

Now together they've waded through

1:39

the last two presidential elections,

1:41

the COVID pandemic, Harrius

1:43

culture wars, sometimes agreeing,

1:46

sometimes disagreeing, but always

1:48

bringing honesty and empathy

1:51

to the conversation. They've

1:53

also written two books. The

1:55

first, which has become a book

1:57

club standard, is called I

2:00

Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening,

2:02

A Guide to grace filled political

2:05

Conversation. They followed

2:07

that one up with now What How

2:09

to move forward when we're divided

2:12

basically about everything. I

2:15

happen to know Sarah because she was

2:17

an intern on my first presidential

2:19

campaign, and I'm delighted

2:22

to be speaking with her again.

2:25

So welcome to the show.

2:27

Sarah, thank you for having

2:29

me.

2:30

We know each other because you

2:32

interned on my two thousand

2:34

and eight campaign for president. Then

2:37

you went on to work for a

2:40

United States senator. But then

2:42

you left Washington, DC

2:45

for your hometown in Kentucky.

2:48

I've been to your hometown. You and I have seen

2:51

each other there in Paducah, Kentucky.

2:54

First, what led you to move

2:56

back there and Secondly, can you describe

2:59

Paducah For people who've never

3:01

been there, have no idea where it is.

3:04

Well, first of all, everybody should come visit. It's

3:06

a fabulous place. Paduca

3:08

sits on the confluence of the Ohio and the

3:10

Mississippi River, and so we you know,

3:12

I can be in Illinois, I can be in Missouri, I can

3:15

be Tennessee at any moment. And

3:17

Paduca is a very interesting place. So

3:20

I know, you know some of this history. We had a

3:22

gaseous diffusion plant built

3:24

in the fifties and sixties.

3:26

That really changed our community. It brought in a

3:28

lot.

3:29

Of workers to build the plant, and then it

3:31

brought in a lot of higher educated people

3:33

to run the plant, and

3:36

you know, they sort of demanded these parts

3:38

of the town that didn't exist before, Like we have a symphony.

3:41

This tiny little town in Kentucky has a symphony.

3:44

And those factors really

3:46

I think changed the fabric of the

3:48

town over time. The plant has now been

3:50

closed down, as you know, it's the long, decades

3:53

long process to close up something like that. And

3:56

in the nineties, I think because

3:59

of some of those those affinities from the plant

4:01

were closing, they had this artist relocation program

4:03

where they would offer artists from around the country a chance

4:05

to move to Paduca and buy a house for a dollar and

4:08

people said.

4:08

Yes, I would like to do that.

4:10

So we had this influence

4:12

of artists. We have a big quilt

4:14

festival that happens every year, and they really

4:17

changed the town. I think that was seen as like a transactional

4:19

thing, and there is not this anticipation

4:22

that you invite an artist community

4:24

into your town. And in the same way the

4:26

plant changed the town, they changed the town. And

4:29

so we are in a very red state,

4:31

but Paduca proper, the city itself

4:33

is pretty blue. And you

4:36

know, when I moved back, I think

4:38

your book It Takes a Village was way ahead of its time.

4:40

I really feel like it's having its moment now. But

4:42

that's what I wanted. I wanted a village.

4:45

I wanted to have children, and I wanted

4:48

to feel that support. I grew up with great

4:50

grandparents and grandparents and you

4:52

know, church community just wrapping its

4:54

arm around me and rooting for me my

4:57

whole childhood.

4:58

And I wanted that for my children. And

5:00

so I was like, you.

5:01

Want to move back to Paduca And he was like, I

5:03

don't know if I do. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go, so I hope.

5:05

You joined me, and he did. He

5:07

did.

5:08

I moved back six months pregnant.

5:10

Was he also from Paducah?

5:11

No, he's from Atlanta, Okay.

5:13

And so we moved back in two

5:15

thousand and nine when I was six months pregnant with my

5:17

first son, Griffin.

5:18

Wow.

5:19

Well, you're an eighth generation

5:22

Kentuckian, but you're also a progressive

5:24

Democrat. And as you say, you're living

5:26

in Paducah, which, as we have

5:28

seen all across the country, more

5:31

urban areas are often blue in

5:34

a much larger suburban,

5:36

exurban rural region

5:38

that is red. And so

5:41

you differ politically from

5:43

you know, a lot of your fellow community

5:46

members, even members of your own family.

5:49

You've talked about, you know the fact

5:51

that your father is a Trump voter. And

5:54

how have you navigated your

5:56

political differences with somebody that

5:58

you really love? Has anything

6:01

changed in your views or his?

6:04

It's been a long journey, you know.

6:08

I think the zenith of our difficulty

6:10

was definitely the twenty sixteen election.

6:12

Like you live that too, it's obviously.

6:15

Yeah, I remember that, yeah, for sure,

6:18

And I think it was a lot of people's experience,

6:20

right. I mean at one point he tried to unfront me on Facebook,

6:22

and I said, We're not We're not going to do that.

6:24

We're not going to do that.

6:25

We're going to stay in relationship with each other. And that's

6:27

what we talk about all the podcast, and you know, that's what

6:29

we work through with our listeners, like this is a long

6:31

game. We are trying to influence each other, not

6:34

shame or in one conversation,

6:36

debate each other into agreement, because it never works like

6:38

that. I tried it for so long, for twenty years.

6:41

I tried like sending the Atlantic long read in

6:43

the policy paper and being like, see, this

6:45

is how it should be, and thinking that's what was going to convince

6:47

people. With my my dad,

6:50

you know, my dad is loving and supportive,

6:52

and he was thrilled that I was coming

6:54

on this podcast to talk to you, Like

6:56

it's just you know, he thinks I think

6:58

he is so proud of me, which which

7:00

fuels that connection and keeps the trust and

7:03

keeps us focusing back

7:05

in on each other because politics is not the entirety.

7:07

Of our relationship exactly, and it shouldn't

7:09

be the entirety of anybody's

7:12

relationship, But of course that

7:14

requires either both individuals

7:17

or both groups of people to

7:19

do what you and Beth advocate,

7:21

which is spend time with people

7:24

that you don't agree with, try to develop

7:26

trust between you, find

7:29

other ways of relating.

7:31

But it's hard.

7:32

It is hard in it.

7:34

You know, we get listeners and

7:37

people in our community and you can hear like, just

7:39

can you just tell me the math equation for when it actually

7:41

is okay to unfriend my uncle on Facebook?

7:43

Like can if he comments this thing and he says

7:45

this word, is it okay for me to cut him off?

7:47

Right?

7:48

And we always say like, we can't give you that.

7:51

You know, we wrote I think you're wrong, but I'm listening,

7:54

and I joke like people would go okay, but I listened

7:56

and I still think they're wrong.

7:57

Now what do I do?

7:59

So our other book?

8:00

Now, what is when we really try to say okay, but what

8:02

are we talking at? What relationship are we talking

8:04

about? Are we talking about a stranger you're fighting

8:06

with on Facebook? Are we talking about your

8:08

dad? Are we talking about your coworker?

8:11

Because all that different context

8:14

of connection really matters,

8:17

and we don't want it to. We want like the

8:19

overarching thing to fuel the whole conversation, and

8:21

we'll just debate it and obviously this is what's

8:23

wrong or you're wrong, and it just can't be like

8:25

that. If we want to work on each other, that's what we're

8:27

doing. We're not trying to change each other. We're

8:30

just trying to work on each other. And I have

8:33

My dad has worked on me, and I have worked

8:35

on him. What if my like most

8:37

intense moments in the pandemic is when he

8:39

decided to get vaccinated, which he was vehemently

8:42

opposed to.

8:43

But it wasn't just me.

8:45

These circumstances of his life were working

8:47

on him right, But he knew I was there to say

8:49

this is the right thing. Like when he made

8:51

that call for himself, he knew he could call me and

8:53

I would say, I'm so glad you're doing this

8:56

right.

8:59

We're taking a quick break, stay with us.

9:12

What do you think that people

9:14

on both sides of this divide

9:17

get wrong about the other? You know,

9:19

people whose experiences are

9:22

more like yours and mine? What do

9:24

we get wrong about people like your

9:26

dad and so many others who are

9:29

good, decent, honorable people. I'm

9:31

putting aside the malicious

9:33

ones, the bad actors or bad actors,

9:36

and what do those folks get

9:38

wrong about people like us?

9:40

We all know the stereotypes that

9:42

democrats are elitist and

9:45

overly intellectual and judgmental

9:48

and don't really care. And then

9:51

I always say on our podcast, we all just sort of

9:53

default to you don't care if the other

9:55

side dies, Like that's like the that's where.

9:57

We go immediately. You don't care about it. I don't care about

9:59

that. Like that's how we know.

10:00

We've gone off the cliff is because suddenly

10:02

we're all psychopaths

10:05

and so we you know, we do that with each other,

10:07

and I, living where I live,

10:09

cannot do that. Like back to the twenty

10:12

sixteen election, there was a woman

10:15

in my child's daycare and

10:17

she loved my baby

10:19

just.

10:19

It brings to yours mud.

10:20

She loved my baby, you know, well, she loved Donald Trump,

10:23

just loved him so much. I could not decide

10:25

what she was and put all that characterization,

10:28

that two dimensionality that we do on her.

10:30

It was impossible to me because I was handing

10:32

my child to her into her loving arms

10:35

two days a week.

10:36

Right, But I couldn't do it.

10:38

And I think that's what happens when you live in a place

10:40

where where everyone politics

10:42

are not closely aligned with your politics, because

10:45

you just don't have that luxury

10:47

of saying everybody feels this box.

10:50

You know.

10:51

In twenty sixteen, I was on the ballot too. I ran

10:53

for my city commissioner race and I won.

10:55

It was a very very bittersweeted

10:57

night that election night, and

11:00

I thought, I know, there are people who

11:02

voted Republican and then went down the ticket

11:04

and voted for me, knowing.

11:06

My politics, because they knew

11:08

you, they understood where

11:10

you were coming from.

11:11

Yes, yes, you know.

11:13

What you just said reminded me of one of

11:15

the interviews that my daughter

11:17

Chelsea and I did for our Apple TV plus

11:20

program Gutsy. We interviewed

11:23

a African American woman

11:26

firefighter in the fire department

11:29

of New York. There aren't very many

11:31

of them, and there sure aren't very many who

11:33

are African American, and we just absolutely

11:36

adored her because she was funny

11:39

and smart and very

11:42

clear about why she was doing what she

11:44

did and how she was

11:47

trying to break down barriers for other

11:49

women to come behind her. And

11:51

she said to me one time, she says, you know, I've

11:54

been in the FDNY

11:56

for now. I think as I recall like fifteen sixteen

11:59

years and I've moved up the ranks,

12:01

and I'm in firehouses where I'm the only woman

12:03

and often usually the only black person,

12:06

And you know, I hear things and I see

12:08

things. But I'll tell you one thing, if

12:11

I or anybody else was ever

12:13

in trouble, these guys

12:15

would break down the door to save

12:18

me or anybody anybody.

12:20

And so part of.

12:21

This is trying to hang on to the

12:25

understanding that yes, we

12:27

have different political views, but

12:29

we are all human beings and we've

12:32

got to make sure that doesn't

12:34

get marginalized.

12:36

And that's what you try to do in your podcast.

12:38

You know, for our listeners who

12:41

may have family members,

12:43

friends, co workers who

12:45

they disagree with politically or

12:47

have had a disruption in their relationship

12:50

because of politics. What are

12:52

some of your tips, What are some

12:54

of the ways that you can try

12:57

to restore some

12:59

grit to your relationships

13:02

and conversations.

13:04

Well, you know Beth Silver's this is the best Silver's

13:07

original. She always says, just remember you do

13:09

not have to leave the Thanksgiving table with draft legislation,

13:11

like let's just lower the expectations for

13:13

these conversations, like, no one's looking

13:15

for that from you and your coworkers or your family

13:18

members. Right, So there's

13:20

a lot of phrases that we've

13:23

used that you know, I think really just

13:25

helped to keep in your pocket. And this is another

13:27

Beth original. Or she'll say, can you tell me more about

13:29

that? When you're just in it and you're like, have

13:33

we stepped into another planet?

13:34

What's happening?

13:34

Because that's a question we get a lot. This all sounds lovely.

13:36

What if we can't agree on reality?

13:39

What do we do then?

13:41

Right?

13:41

And what we always say is just say that, say

13:44

isn't it interesting that you and I

13:46

grew up in the same home and

13:48

we can't even agree on this basic

13:51

reality?

13:52

Right?

13:52

Isn't that interesting? Not that

13:54

makes you bad and me good? Isn't that interesting?

13:57

Because it is interesting if you're a student

13:59

of human nature, that is interesting.

14:01

Yeah, it is.

14:01

How did that happen?

14:02

How did that happen?

14:03

What are the reasons? Right?

14:06

You know, one of the biggest issues caught up in

14:08

political debate is of course abortion,

14:11

and this is such a difficult, hot

14:13

button issue for most people. So

14:15

how do you talk about that in

14:18

you know, conversations with neighbors,

14:20

people in your community, people at church.

14:24

What I have learned for my

14:26

time in Paduca. And honestly, the story I really

14:29

always tell people is when I knocked on doors, on on

14:31

five thousand doors in the election of

14:33

twenty sixteen, which is an exercise in

14:35

humanity, a lovely one. I had such

14:37

little negative to extra. It's a great experience,

14:39

it really, and you know what I always tell people, it is the building

14:41

blocks of mental health. You are outside, you are moving

14:43

your body, You're engaging with humans exactly. But

14:46

everybody thinks it's so scary, but I'm like, it's not. But

14:49

obviously I was a nonpartisan race in

14:51

theory. In reality in twenty sixteen,

14:54

everybody wanted to know who I was voting for, and

14:56

I would say, well, I worked for Hillary

14:58

Clinton, and that wasn't It just

15:00

diffused it because what are they going to say,

15:02

No, you didn't right, No

15:05

you didn't like I guess I did. So that experience,

15:07

and that's absolutely my experience

15:09

with talking about abortion. So often

15:12

when I get in conversations about abortion,

15:14

I either talk about my time working for a Planned Parenthood or

15:16

I talk about my own pregnancy loss where

15:18

I had a pregnancy at twenty weeks where the fetes

15:21

didn't have a heartbeat. Oh and I wrote

15:23

a post actually before, right before the election

15:25

in Kentucky where we defeated an

15:27

abortion amendment that I said, like, if

15:30

this, you know, this was not that long ago,

15:32

but if it had happened now, I don't think I would

15:34

have been able to get the surgery I got. I

15:37

would have had to get sick first, you

15:39

know. And it and I think women

15:42

have gotten so open

15:45

and transparent because of the

15:47

work of generations of people, including

15:49

yourself, making this conversation more

15:52

open, making this conversation more transparent.

15:54

And there's so many women standing up

15:56

and saying, this is what happened to me. You

15:59

can't argue with this, This is what happened to me.

16:02

Would you want this to happen to you?

16:04

That is so well said.

16:06

You know, I can tell what you're

16:09

going to answer to this question,

16:11

but I'm going to ask it because

16:14

I feel it's important

16:16

for people who, like

16:19

so many right now, are confused,

16:22

unsettled, angry,

16:25

worried, all of those emotions.

16:27

But based on your experience

16:30

day to day in your community, do

16:33

you feel optimistic about

16:35

the future of our country. You know,

16:38

I do, I know, but I

16:40

want everybody else to know you do.

16:42

Yes, absolutely, absolutely,

16:44

you know.

16:45

I

16:47

I feel like this is a conversation I have with my thirteen

16:49

year old all the time. You know, I jokingly

16:52

say, when I got pregnant, I said, no,

16:54

alex Pekeaton's allowed.

16:55

I did not expect to become the Alex pe Keaton.

16:57

That is what happened.

17:00

He went further left of me, and he gets so, you

17:02

know, in that way that you do when you're

17:04

young. It feels like how this is

17:06

all terrible? Like how is any of this gonna

17:08

get better? We were just having

17:10

this conversation about climate change, and I said,

17:13

hey, we just passed once in a

17:15

generation climate change legislation that

17:18

matters, and I know we don't feel it instantaneously,

17:21

and that this work is long, but

17:24

I you know, I believe in the beloved community.

17:26

I believe that I drink from a well that I did

17:28

not dig, and that people on the other

17:30

end in front of me will hopefully benefit from things

17:32

that I'm doing that I don't get to experience, and

17:35

that connect. That's It's back to what we were talking about

17:37

from the beginning. That connection. I

17:39

believe in that. I feel it

17:41

every day. I have seen it play out

17:43

in the lives of others, including you,

17:45

and I just try to

17:48

tap that as much as I can, to be present

17:50

with people and not try to talk them out of what they're feeling.

17:52

You can't talk a thirteen year old out of how they're feeling.

17:54

I don't know if you've tried. It is not a

17:56

worthwhile endeavor. And so I just

17:59

say, hey, I understand.

18:01

I felt that way at times too, But I'm

18:03

here with you and I'll stay with you,

18:05

and we're on the same team, and I feel

18:08

that way about humanity for the most part,

18:10

and we will keep taking steps together and

18:12

we don't know where it's going to go, but I do

18:15

believe that we'll keep moving forward.

18:17

Well.

18:18

Amen, Amen, you and I are on

18:20

the same page about that, and I

18:23

am thrilled to have this chance to talk with you.

18:25

And you are welcome on Pantsu Politics anytime.

18:27

You know what, let's add that to the list.

18:30

I'd love to.

18:31

I love it.

18:37

Listen to the Pantsuit Politics podcast

18:40

wherever you get your podcasts. If

18:43

you think talking to your uncle or your

18:45

next door neighbor is challenging,

18:48

wait until you hear from my next

18:51

guest, Ambassador Linda

18:53

Thomas Greenfield has represented

18:55

the interests of the United States in some

18:57

pretty difficult places, from Liberia

19:00

to Afghanistan, and as

19:02

we'll hear about now in her seat

19:04

on the Security Council of the United

19:07

Nations as our Ambassador

19:09

to the UN. Over

19:11

the course of her thirty five year

19:14

career with the Foreign Service, Linda

19:16

has served as Ambassador to Liberia,

19:19

Assistant Secretary of State for

19:22

African Affairs, Director

19:24

General of the Foreign Service, and

19:26

Director of Human Resources,

19:28

and held posts abroad in

19:31

Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria,

19:33

and Switzerland, to name a few.

19:37

I know how difficult diplomatic work

19:39

is, the delicate balancing

19:41

of knowing when to listen and learn

19:44

and when to push back. And

19:46

I've seen Linda in action, and

19:49

she does it masterfully. She

19:52

has great stories to share from

19:54

her experience on the high wire

19:56

of international diplomacy, but

19:59

she also offers us all an example

20:01

for how to handle difficult interactions

20:05

in our own daily lives. I'm

20:07

so delighted she could join us on

20:09

the podcast.

20:11

Welcome Linda, Thank you very much.

20:14

I'm delighted to be here with you.

20:16

Well I've been looking forward to this, and I

20:19

want to start by talking about

20:21

your work at the United Nations,

20:23

because I know that maybe some

20:26

of our listeners don't know

20:28

what does the US Ambassador to the United

20:31

Nations do on a daily basis.

20:34

You know, first and foremost, I

20:36

represent America to the world.

20:39

At the United Nations. There are one hundred and

20:41

ninety three country member

20:43

states there, and I have

20:45

to engage with all of those

20:48

member states because when it

20:50

comes to voting in the General

20:52

Assembly, it's one country,

20:54

one vote, and so

20:57

I spend a lot of my days

20:59

in aging with every single

21:02

country. But also I attend

21:04

meetings of the General Assembly and

21:07

meetings of the Security Council,

21:10

and then I do things like what I'm doing

21:12

with you today.

21:13

Well, I know how important it is

21:16

to have that one on one personal

21:19

contact, building those relationships

21:21

between you representing the United

21:24

States and the representatives

21:26

of other countries, because, as you say, oftentimes.

21:30

We need votes.

21:31

We need votes to do things that

21:33

we believe are in our interests

21:35

and furtherance of our values and obviously

21:37

protecting our security.

21:39

So let's take a step back.

21:42

You were born and raised in Baker, Louisiana,

21:44

north of Baton Rouge.

21:46

How did you end up.

21:48

In the foreign service as a diplomat

21:50

representing our country? Was

21:53

there somebody who inspired you

21:55

or something you learned that made

21:57

you interested in international relations?

22:00

You know, every time I'm asked that question,

22:02

I recall something different

22:04

and new that I didn't recall before.

22:07

And most recently, I've talked about

22:09

the fact that when I was in eighth grade,

22:12

Peace Corps came to my

22:15

community. There was an old

22:17

HBCU Leland College

22:19

and it closed down and Peace Corps

22:21

came there in the mid sixties to

22:24

train volunteers who were going

22:26

to Somalia and

22:28

Swaziland, and that was

22:30

my first engagement with the

22:32

world outside of Baker, Louisiana. They

22:35

reached out to the community, it's a poor rural

22:37

community and invited young kids

22:40

from the community to come

22:42

over and learn the languages that

22:44

they were learning, and I

22:46

started to learn Suswati wow

22:49

when I was in eighth grade. I can't repeat

22:52

a word of it now, but it

22:54

was interesting to me. And then fast

22:56

forward, I ended up going

22:58

to the university was Constant Graduate

23:01

School, and one of my graduate

23:04

classmates was the Siswati

23:06

teacher Glory Mamba, and

23:08

so I kind of rekindled

23:11

that interest. I'd gone to Madison to get

23:13

a master's degree in public administration. I

23:16

didn't have any interest in international

23:19

relations, but that moment

23:21

rekindled that interest in learning

23:24

more about the world, and

23:26

I ended up in the PhD

23:28

program studying African politics

23:31

and got the amazing opportunity

23:33

to go to Liberia, where I

23:36

met people who worked at the

23:38

embassy. One of them happens

23:40

to be my husband, and

23:44

that's all she wrote. I took the Foreign Service

23:46

exam, and here I am. Forty years

23:48

later.

23:50

You joined in nineteen eighty two. You

23:52

started representing the United

23:55

States, and you've had

23:57

one of the most interesting, impactful

24:01

careers that I personally know

24:03

of. But when I was Secretary of

24:05

State, you served as Director

24:08

General of the Foreign Service, which is

24:10

a very prestigious post within

24:13

the State Department, and you also

24:15

served as the director of Human Resources,

24:17

so you had a lot

24:20

to do in stewarding

24:22

the global workforce of seventy thousand

24:25

personnel. In your view,

24:27

what makes a good diplomat.

24:30

You know, first and foremost, you have to love

24:32

what you're doing, and the

24:35

most important skill is

24:37

the ability to listen to people. It's

24:39

communication skills. So we teach people

24:42

they have to write well, and that's important.

24:44

We teach people to develop contacts.

24:48

But in developing those contacts, they

24:50

have to develop relationships. And

24:52

if you develop those relationships,

24:55

you can be a good diplomat no matter

24:57

where you are assigned,

25:00

because you develop the relationships

25:02

that help you to understand

25:05

where other people are coming from, even

25:07

those people you might not agree with.

25:10

I was wondering if there's also either

25:13

teaching or role modeling about

25:16

what to do when you're asked

25:18

to execute a policy you don't agree

25:20

with personally, because you know

25:23

you serve different presidents. Obviously,

25:25

you know there's different policies depending upon

25:27

who's sitting in the oval office.

25:30

How does a diplomat come

25:32

to be professionally

25:35

able to say, Okay, I disagree with

25:37

this, but I serve the president

25:40

and the country.

25:41

You know. It takes experience

25:44

and it also takes a commitment

25:47

to the profession. I had an

25:49

experience early in my career

25:52

when I questioned whether I

25:54

wanted to be in the Foreign Service and whether

25:56

I could continue to

25:59

serve give a particular

26:01

policy, and it related to Liberia. I

26:04

was in Liberia in the late seventies.

26:06

I left Liberian seventy nine after

26:09

some very violent Rice riots, and

26:11

in nineteen eighty there was a bloody coup and

26:14

the person who carried out that who

26:17

committed atrocities beyond

26:20

our imaginations at that time. And

26:23

I joined the Foreign Service in eighty two, and

26:25

one of the first meetings, I think

26:27

maybe in eighty three that I was

26:29

aware of the White House having was a

26:31

meeting between President Reagan and

26:34

Liberian President Doe, who'd carried

26:36

out this horrific and very bloody

26:39

coup. And I thought it was wrong

26:41

for the President to meet with this guy, and

26:44

I voiced it to a more senior officer,

26:47

and he said, Linda, if

26:49

you quit today, nobody will pay

26:51

attention. If you want to make a

26:53

difference, you have to be

26:55

in a position where your voice is

26:58

heard, and right now your voice will

27:00

not be heard. And I will

27:02

tell you later in my career I was

27:05

in a position where my voice made

27:07

a difference in our policies

27:09

and I was able to affect

27:12

change. And I very much appreciate

27:14

the advice that I was given at an early age

27:17

that just quitting will make me

27:19

feel good, but it will do nothing

27:21

for our government. So that's

27:24

advice that I give to young people

27:26

today.

27:27

I think that's such important insight

27:29

and advice because you know, our conversation

27:32

today is really focusing

27:35

on how do you talk to people you disagree

27:37

with? And I think it's

27:39

fair to say you and I have a lot of you

27:41

know, a lot of time shocked

27:44

up to trying to do that. But if

27:47

you don't listen to

27:49

people with whom you disagree, there

27:51

is absolutely no chance of finding any

27:54

sliver of common ground. You still may not

27:56

find it, but you've got to start

27:59

from some point of understanding

28:02

what does this person, what does this government

28:04

want? And is there any way

28:07

to reach some kind of better

28:09

outcome.

28:14

We'll be right back.

28:25

I want to talk to you about two areas

28:27

that you really have fascinating

28:30

experience in one in Liberia.

28:32

Tell the listeners a little.

28:33

Bit more about when you went back

28:35

and it was still a very violent,

28:38

conflict ridden country.

28:41

You know, I went full circle.

28:44

I started in Liberia in

28:46

seventy eight, seventy nine, and then went back

28:48

to Liberia in two thousand and eight as

28:50

the ambassador, and

28:53

Liberia had just come out

28:55

of a horrific era of

28:58

civil war. In two

29:00

thousand and six it had elected

29:02

the first woman president

29:06

and it was extraordinarily

29:08

challenging for her and

29:11

for the entire country. And

29:14

I remember going in

29:16

the Secretary of State at that time was

29:18

Kandie Rice, And as

29:21

you know, you give us a secretary's

29:24

letter of instruction to go into

29:27

a country, and my letter of instruction

29:29

to Liberia, it's said a lot of things, but one

29:32

thing stood out. Your job is to

29:34

help this country to succeed. And

29:37

so that was the approach that

29:39

I took. When I arrived at my embassy, I

29:41

shared the letter of instructions with the

29:44

entire embassy and said, this is

29:46

what we're here to do. We're here to help this

29:48

country. Then, through decades

29:51

of civil war and conflict,

29:54

people are traumatized. We have

29:56

a president who started out

29:59

with a budget of sixty million

30:01

dollars to run a country. It's

30:03

pocket change for most countries.

30:06

How do we help her to succeed?

30:09

And my approach to her, and I'm still

30:12

friends with her, is mana president, I'm

30:14

going to be the one person who will always tell

30:16

you the truth. Yes, right, even

30:18

when it's not something you want to

30:20

hear. You can trust that I will

30:22

always tell you the truth about

30:25

the people around you, about you.

30:27

But I also engage with

30:30

everybody in the country, the good guys

30:32

and the bad guys. I spoke to everyone.

30:35

I went into communities, I

30:37

spoke to market women, I spoke to unemployed

30:40

teachers. I got to know the

30:42

country from the grassroots so

30:45

that I could be in a position to

30:48

help the country succeed, inform

30:50

our own policies about what we needed

30:52

to do from the Washington side, but

30:54

also advise the president

30:57

and her government on what they needed to

30:59

do. And I found it to be extraordinarily

31:02

effective. One thing

31:04

that happened the first year I was there, the

31:07

local newspapers vote on the

31:09

diplomat of the year, and

31:11

I was voted the diplomat of the year, but

31:14

called the people's ambassador.

31:16

And that was extraordinarily

31:19

important to me because people recognize

31:22

that they would see me in the markets, they

31:24

would see me in the coffee in

31:26

tea shops talking to unemployed

31:28

youth. They would see me in rural areas

31:31

talking to local people,

31:33

farmers and getting a sense

31:35

of what the country needed to survive

31:38

and help the country to succeed.

31:40

And I think we did an extraordinarily

31:43

good job. And two of my successes,

31:45

Madame Secretary, was to get you to

31:48

come to lib Aurea twice.

31:50

I know.

31:51

And as I was listening

31:53

to you, Linda, I thought about going

31:55

to president to Ellen Johnson,

31:57

Sirleive's second inaugural after

32:00

or she'd gotten herself re elected, which

32:02

was equally amazing. And

32:04

she asked me to speak to the Parliament. Remember

32:07

that, and she told me, she

32:09

said, now I need you to go speak to the Parliament,

32:11

but you're gonna be standing in front of an audience

32:14

it includes war criminals, coupplotters,

32:19

all kinds of you know, very

32:22

uh dangerous and difficult

32:24

people.

32:25

And my job was to keep you from

32:27

taking a picture with idioms.

32:29

Yeah, I know, I

32:31

know it.

32:32

But that's like a perfect story, Like, Okay,

32:35

you had been spending your time day

32:37

in and day out talking to everybody, including

32:40

you know, people that maybe we would not choose

32:42

to, but that was part of the mission. And

32:44

then I was speaking to a full audience

32:47

that included some of those same people. But

32:49

it just goes to remind us that

32:51

you don't make peace or progress

32:54

just with your friends. I mean, you've got to have

32:57

a big enough tent that you bring all kinds

32:59

of people of influence in

33:01

a society together. And one

33:04

of the most fascinating parts of your

33:06

career, Linda, is you were

33:08

among the very first Americans

33:11

ever to meet with and negotiate

33:14

with the Taliban. And that

33:16

happened, you know, not in the last

33:19

couple of years, but back in the nineties.

33:21

Could you just describe the circumstances

33:24

you were in Pakistan, what happened that made

33:27

you cross the border to meet with the Taliban.

33:29

So I was the refugee coordinator

33:32

in Pakistan, and the

33:34

refugees in Pakistan all came from

33:36

Afghanistan. And when I was sent

33:38

out there, I was sent to basically

33:41

close the refugee camps and start

33:43

supporting people returning home.

33:45

I got there in August of nineteen

33:48

ninety six and the Taliban came in

33:50

in November, and that

33:52

changed my job description.

33:55

So I was engaging with the

33:57

Taliban on the issues of women's

34:00

education, on issues of

34:02

human rights, on issues of

34:05

the poppy and drug

34:07

trade. It was not my intention.

34:10

I literally was going in to

34:13

assess the work of the

34:16

NGOs and the UN the work

34:18

that they were doing in Afghanistan because we

34:20

were the largest funder. So my

34:23

initial goal was to work with those

34:25

organizations, but those organizations

34:28

were having difficulty working

34:30

with the Taliban, and I

34:33

recalled in one meeting with

34:35

the Taliban minister of health who'd made a

34:37

decision that women could not work

34:40

in hospitals, they could not provide

34:42

medical care and lock

34:45

any access of women to medical

34:47

assistance. And I went in to meet with

34:49

this guy. I had a very

34:52

lightly covered veil on and

34:54

as I started to talk to him, he

34:56

said, you are trying to impose

34:58

your culture on me on us, and

35:01

I said, this is not my.

35:03

Culture, pointing to your head with her

35:05

into.

35:06

My head with the veil, and I removed the veil.

35:08

I said, I wore it out of respect

35:11

for you, but this is not my culture. And

35:14

all the angos were like up

35:16

in arms because I'd remove my scarf,

35:19

but I said, I need to understand your culture.

35:22

So if I understand correctly, when

35:25

women get sick, the

35:27

only outcome is that they die. So

35:30

if your mother, your sister, your wife,

35:32

your daughter all gets sick,

35:35

they have no access to a doctor because

35:37

they can't see a male doctor, and

35:39

you're blocking them from seeing a female

35:41

doctor. And he sat there, he didn't say

35:44

anything and

35:46

Finally the meeting ended. Everybody

35:49

was upset with me because they thought I'd

35:51

been a little pushy, a little over

35:53

aggressive. And I

35:55

discovered that his mother was seriously

35:58

ill and he'd been pushing

36:01

for one of the NGOs

36:03

to fly his mother to Pakistan for

36:05

medical treatment.

36:06

And he thought that I knew that.

36:09

And the next day he made the

36:11

decision to allow women to go back to work.

36:13

It was not I mean, we rejoiced

36:15

at the decision, but they also had to

36:18

have a male relative accompany

36:20

them, and the male relative could be their

36:22

two year old son, right, but

36:25

women were allowed to go back into the hospital

36:27

to work. And I thought, you

36:29

know, I engaged him. I

36:32

didn't think I was being aggressive. I

36:34

was like, I need to understand your culture.

36:36

Good for you, Linda, and I

36:38

engaged regularly with Afghan

36:40

women. And one of the things

36:43

that women told me which really

36:45

impacted me, is you're pushing

36:47

for our girls' education, and we want

36:49

our girls to be educated, but

36:52

you have to educate our boys too, because

36:55

if you don't educate our boys, they're going to

36:57

be forced to marry ignorant

36:59

men. And it changed

37:02

my approach as well, because

37:04

I began to understand yes, we have

37:06

to demand that girls be educated,

37:09

but we cannot ignore the education

37:12

of boys, because otherwise

37:14

these boys will be become taliban

37:17

who don't understand how to support

37:20

the rights of women.

37:21

I think that's such an important story

37:23

because so many people in our country today don't

37:26

want to talk to anybody they disagree with, whether

37:28

it's the right, the left, red, blue,

37:31

Democrat, Republican, whatever it might be.

37:33

Yeah, I mean that is diplomacy

37:35

kind of in a nutshell, and

37:38

yet it often seems to move so

37:40

slowly. It takes a lot

37:43

of patience. How do you

37:45

keep the resilience? You

37:47

know, I have a little bit of experience of getting

37:50

knocked down, having things not

37:52

work out, and you do have to call

37:54

on something deep inside. And

37:56

I know that in your career you've had to do that

37:59

time and time again because you've been in some very

38:01

challenging positions. So talk

38:03

a little bit about what it takes to

38:06

keep talking and working under

38:09

difficult circumstances as you have.

38:11

You know, you always have to approach

38:15

any of these discussions with

38:18

an unrealistic.

38:20

Degree of hope interesting.

38:23

That you are making a difference,

38:25

and that even when you fail, you

38:28

achieve something and

38:31

so I approach situations

38:34

that are clearly very

38:36

challenging, very difficult, that I

38:39

probably know in my hard hearts that

38:41

I'm not going to win on. But

38:44

something is going to come out

38:47

that will make a difference, will make a difference

38:49

in the lives of people who who

38:51

are engaged, or people who

38:54

just need to see the US

38:56

there. They want to see us

38:58

at the table, and

39:01

when they see us at the table, it gives

39:03

them strength. So it's also about

39:06

giving others the strength to

39:08

engage on these issues. And

39:11

I just know every single day, and

39:13

this is that unrealistic part of me. Every

39:16

single day I know that something

39:19

I'm doing, although it may

39:21

look like failure to everybody else, is

39:24

making a difference to someone somewhere.

39:28

I like that because I think that is

39:30

a way that people like you and

39:32

I do keep going. Is that somehow

39:34

this ripple effect is going

39:36

to mean something. Yes,

39:39

And before we close, do you have any reflections

39:42

about how some of what you've

39:45

learned through your forty

39:47

years of diplomacy could

39:49

be applied in our own country, which seems

39:52

so divided, so at

39:54

odds with each other, where people are more

39:56

interested in scoring points than solving

39:59

problems. Do you have any advice you

40:01

want to give our listeners and others who

40:03

are trying to figure out how do we get back together,

40:06

how do we have hope that we're going to work

40:08

our way through all of these controversies

40:11

and problems.

40:11

You know, what I see and what

40:14

has worked for me and what I see not working

40:17

now is people have lost their

40:19

sense of compassion. They've lost

40:22

their sense of kindness, they

40:24

have lost their sense of respect

40:27

for other people's differences.

40:30

So I can sit with someone that

40:32

I have differences with and

40:34

listen to them long enough

40:37

to find a common thread. And

40:39

sometimes it takes a lot of patience

40:41

to do that. It's sitting

40:43

and listening to somebody spout off

40:45

something for two hours that

40:47

you totally disagree with. But

40:50

suddenly a light goes off and

40:52

there's this thread and you find

40:54

a connection with that person.

40:58

And so we've lost our sense to

41:00

patients, yes as

41:02

well. So my advice is

41:05

listen, respect, show

41:08

kindness, and look

41:10

for the commonalities that are there

41:13

that if you didn't have the patience

41:15

to wait, you wouldn't find those commonalities.

41:18

It may be that you have grandchildren

41:21

who are the same ages, and you spend

41:24

fifteen minutes, a very valuable

41:27

time talking about your two grandkids.

41:30

And then I can use that bring

41:33

it back around to say, if

41:35

you want a future for your grandchild, then

41:38

you need to rethink what you're doing

41:40

here. And so it

41:43

does take patients because you go into these meetings.

41:45

You got thirty minutes. Lucky if

41:47

you got sixty minutes and you

41:50

got three pages of talking points and

41:52

everybody waiting for you to go through each

41:55

point because ten different

41:58

entities within the government want.

41:59

You to make their point.

42:01

Yes, right, and so you

42:03

have to go through the talking points, but you

42:05

also have to listen, and

42:08

you have to connect with

42:11

the person. So I always start my meetings

42:13

connecting and so then

42:15

you've established that relationship

42:18

that allows you to reach back to that person

42:21

again and again and again.

42:23

And that's when you know you've succeeded

42:26

as a diplomat when you have those relationships

42:29

that work even when you disagree

42:31

with each other.

42:33

Boy, amen to that, Linda, Well,

42:35

you could give a masterclass

42:38

on diplomacy. And you have given

42:40

us a lot to think about in

42:42

this conversation. And

42:45

I'm just so appreciative

42:47

of your taking your time, but more than that of

42:49

your steadfast, stellar

42:52

devotion to the work you've done on

42:54

behalf of the United States, and

42:57

I just hope your words resonate

42:59

with our lis and beyond so that

43:01

people will talk about that.

43:03

Well, I'm not going to let you in with

43:05

that because you have been such

43:08

a role model for all of us,

43:10

and during your term as Secretary

43:13

of State, you really gave

43:15

us the guidance and the support

43:17

that we needed that allowed us to do

43:20

our jobs, and you gave us the example

43:23

that we needed. So I'm going to thank

43:25

you for what you have done

43:27

as well.

43:28

Well.

43:28

Thank you so much for everything.

43:31

It means the world to me.

43:33

Thank you.

43:39

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44:09

it. And if you're not already a subscriber,

44:12

what are you waiting for? You can

44:14

subscribe to You and Me Both on the

44:16

iHeartRadio app, Apple

44:18

Podcasts, or wherever you get

44:20

your podcasts. Thanks for listening,

44:23

and I'll see you next week.