0:09

All. Right? Let's do this. How are

0:11

you? What the fuckers? What the fuck

0:13

buddies? What the Buccaneers? What's happening? A

0:15

Mark Marron This is my podcast. Welcome

0:18

to It! How's it going out there?

0:20

How are you guys doing? Are you

0:22

are right? It's an okay day to

0:24

day I even. I've been up in

0:26

Vancouver for the last few days. And

0:29

I'm just really kind of trying

0:31

to get. This space

0:33

that I'm living and into a

0:36

place where I recognize things and

0:38

I can do things that I

0:40

do. You. Know maybe I should tell you. Who's.

0:43

On the show. Would that be

0:45

helpful today? who's on the show?

0:47

It is Tony Goldwyn. And.

0:50

He's been in the business for a long time. His

0:53

dad. Was. A producer and

0:55

his grandfather. Was. The Movie

0:58

Mogul Samuel Goldwyn. And

1:01

he's an actor. We've known him, You've seen him.

1:03

He was in movies like ghost. He was in

1:05

the Tv series Scandal, I just saw my Hacks

1:07

but he just directed this new movie. Ezra.

1:11

Which. Is pretty spectacular.

1:14

It's a beautiful movie. It's. Got

1:16

the of. Bobby. Cannavale A. Rose.

1:19

Burns and It. Deniro in

1:21

it. Or they get this great

1:23

kid. Who's. It's

1:26

a story about. Parents. with an

1:28

autistic kid? And the

1:30

kid they got his ass is on

1:32

the spectrum. It's

1:34

a beautiful movie. It's. One

1:36

those movies. I've had this experience

1:39

recently where I'm watching something and

1:41

there's a There's an authenticity to it

1:43

that could not be. Generated.

1:47

Falsely that the like he

1:49

just feels to. Real.

1:52

To Not Be Somebody story and it

1:54

turns out it it actually was his

1:56

buddy story with his kid neighbor. Work

1:58

on the screenplay. This project for

2:01

years. The. Guy who wrote it. And

2:04

or Tony directed it and I'll tell

2:06

you it's it's a sweet movie. It.

2:08

Really is sweet movie. Nice.

2:10

Story I think Conor Ballet and Burn

2:13

are really doing some their best work

2:15

in this movie and even De Niro.

2:18

Fucking. Deniro. you know when he gets cast.

2:20

In. A role. Of a

2:23

regular guy is. And

2:25

inside get a lead par but

2:27

it's a support parts he's just

2:29

great. What a a humble gracious

2:31

actor this guy is any always

2:34

be a idea I obviously I'm

2:36

i'm studying. What? People do on

2:38

screen a little more than than usual

2:40

base. He just so fucking good. He's.

2:42

So good. And I just

2:45

talk to a Tony about the whole thing about. We

2:47

talked a bit about this Nebo Baby idea which I

2:49

really just don't. Believe. Is

2:51

a real. Issue. And

2:53

I've talked about this before and just

2:55

based on the people I talk to,

2:57

almost all of them. Come. From

2:59

humble working class beginnings and that yeah

3:02

if you look at the percentages it's

3:04

just it's not, it's a non issue.

3:06

and why wouldn't she get into the

3:08

family busy bags at our to tony

3:10

little bit about that but those great

3:13

conversation I would like to tell you.

3:15

That. I'm performing up here in Vancouver on

3:17

Friday June twenty first at The Boat

3:19

Theaters Them in Seattle on Saturday June

3:22

twenty second at the More Theater. In.

3:24

The fall on going to

3:27

be coming. A Tucson, Phoenix,

3:29

Oklahoma City, Dallas, Houston, San

3:31

Antonio, Boulder, Colorado, Ah. Joliet,

3:34

Illinois, Skokie, Illinois, Grand Rapids,

3:36

Michigan, Sacramento and Napa California.

3:39

Who. Lot on the docket. Lot

3:42

on the docket to get all my dates

3:44

including the ones from the summer that I

3:46

had to reschedule Go to wtfpod.com so as

3:48

to work. And. Are. Ya.

3:51

See out there I guess I gotta keep this our

3:53

tight. You know? I'm going to be kind of out

3:55

of the loop for a few months shooting the Tv

3:57

show, but yeah thing, I got it. I'm going be

3:59

back down in L A quite a bit. I.

4:02

Am final place to work out here.

4:04

Somebody some local comic keeps me to

4:07

or to a situation that might be

4:09

helpful while I'm appear so on a

4:11

somber know. I

4:14

would like to. Pay. Tribute

4:16

to a couple of people here.

4:18

Okay, oh, we've really been losing

4:20

people. I say it's not

4:22

unusual. Happens every bite but

4:25

the maybe some he remember. Ah,

4:28

our Eddie movie producer already.

4:31

A died on Saturday at age ninety

4:33

four. Ninety. That's. As

4:36

good a run as you can have.

4:38

He was famous for producing The Godfather

4:41

but he added add an amazing career

4:43

all around and I talk to them.

4:46

Back. In Twenty Twenty Two One

4:48

episode Thirteen, Sixty three that still available

4:50

for free and all the podcast feeds.

4:52

And He was. You know, He.

4:55

Was a real deal man and he was

4:57

still is. He was still slogan away. Yet.

4:59

You know, in there. And Ninety Two

5:01

And Ninety Three Our old He was.

5:04

whoa. recipes. our. He. Had a

5:06

good run. We. Lost someone.

5:09

Who. Was. Never guessed on

5:11

Wtf? Ah,

5:13

but it was someone who I worked with.

5:16

Back. It Air America which was

5:18

really the beginning. Of

5:20

me doing this. Ah,

5:22

I'm doing. Learning how

5:24

to do radio. Amy Winslow was the

5:27

Director of Operations aired Air America and

5:29

she's one of our our biggest supporters.

5:32

And our biggest fans and she was

5:34

just great! She's. A great

5:36

person. Always had great energy.

5:38

She came from Rock Radio New York

5:40

w any W and she was always

5:43

a pro. She was also incredibly. This

5:45

is a really nice person and great

5:47

person to talk to. And.

5:50

Or she went on to work at the

5:52

Music Management Farm that handles Guided By Voices,

5:54

Yoko Ono and some other people and she

5:56

died of cancer last week at age fifty

5:59

nine and. It was very jarring

6:01

in and sad. To. Get

6:03

that news and and to get it you

6:05

know and in the way that I did

6:08

which was just a D M on Instagram

6:10

from someone I didn't know who knew that

6:12

I knew her need have any contacts for

6:14

her but the and I imagine some people

6:17

may be hearing this for the first time

6:19

but as anyone's or has passed away and

6:21

she was just really one of the great

6:24

ones system. Always great to

6:26

see her and she always kind of stayed

6:28

in touch and it's very sad. Damn. Sad.

6:31

Reality. This. Death thing.

6:35

But. Let's get back to process, shall we?

6:37

Can. We. Out a new

6:39

dimension that like a did some cooking here in a made

6:42

own dinner I think I did. When. It make of

6:44

ram a major for me but then he came over and as eight some.

6:46

And then he left. But. I.

6:49

Saw. Get back up your money and numbers. Most have

6:52

a rehearsal. With. The Directors

6:54

on a Tuesday, but just me

6:56

and I went with our ethers

6:58

and and Jonathan Dayton's they are

7:00

Partners They are met at married

7:02

I believe. Ah, I'm

7:04

and Etti really know we're going into. And.

7:07

I know of us and I get this text from a. From.

7:09

Them. To. I get him to

7:12

the game. Jenga. Now. You know,

7:14

ultimately? The. Backstory of me

7:16

and oh and in this shows i was

7:18

his caddie was pro golfer twenty years ago

7:20

so is this is interesting exercise which I

7:22

immediately was like what the fuck. What?

7:25

Is that? The. I text. Oh,

7:27

and when we do in this silly shit for, you

7:29

know, what are we going to do waging that? Yes,

7:31

Because that's just my nature. Here's. An

7:33

idea, something you may not be comfortable with

7:35

even though it's Jenga, a game I've never

7:38

played before. You. Know my first

7:40

response is like will this out to be

7:42

fun Know it's like what are we doing.

7:45

But. We got to this or her soldiers, me,

7:47

no one in them and the directors and

7:49

they want to stay. Yeah, that's about as

7:52

a bunch of questions about. But.

7:54

we thought about the other person story

7:56

or our story how we interconnected they're

7:58

very specific questions There was six of

8:01

them. We had three minutes to write by

8:03

hand stuff. And

8:05

then we read them out loud to each other.

8:07

It was kind of like weirdly touching. And we

8:09

were pretty on the same page with

8:12

our understanding of the characters we

8:14

were playing. And, but

8:16

it was kind of weird, you know, just to be

8:18

like, well, this is what I'm saying. But it's about

8:20

your character and not about you per se. But

8:23

it was oddly kind of

8:25

a vulnerable exercise. And

8:27

then, and

8:30

then we kind of, they wanted us to play Jenga and I'd never

8:32

played it before in my life, but I did read the materials they

8:34

gave me. So I had a pretty good idea of it. I kind

8:36

of knew the idea. You don't want the thing to fall down. It's

8:39

not a challenging game. So I pull the things out and you don't

8:41

want it to fall down. And you can't

8:43

do the top to top. You got to put the

8:45

thing on top. I get it. It's not, you know,

8:47

it's not a, it's not, it's

8:49

not chess for Christ's sake. There's

8:51

only, there's only one way to move in Jenga,

8:54

but it was interesting to

8:57

play it. And then to see how somebody else is

8:59

making decisions and be like, oh, you're going to do

9:01

that? I'm going to do this. But

9:03

it got pretty, pretty gnarly. And it

9:05

got pretty, I think it was a

9:07

tie. Is that possible? I

9:09

don't know. How do you win Jenga? I guess if

9:11

it falls down for the other guy, but what if

9:13

you, it doesn't fall down and you're kind of out

9:16

of options. Does it have to

9:18

fall down? Doesn't matter. It's not a conversation I need to

9:20

have with you guys. But

9:22

all said, the exercise

9:25

was kind of interesting. And it

9:27

did, it got us engaged in a way that we

9:30

wouldn't have, and I liked it. I

9:32

guess this is part of it. You know, you

9:34

work with some directors, they do interesting stuff. They

9:36

got an interesting method. You learn new things about

9:39

yourself, about your characters. It's part of the creative

9:41

process. I'll take it. I'll take

9:43

it. This was

9:45

all heading into

9:48

the first day of shooting on Wednesday, which was a

9:50

big scene with me and Owen at

9:53

a bar. It's actually me act,

9:55

we're both doing

9:57

our characters, but our characters are involved in

9:59

something. where they're not really playing themselves. So

10:02

it's like acting upon acting. And

10:04

I hadn't been in

10:07

the process in a while, getting

10:10

up 5.56 in the morning, getting

10:13

over to the trailers, getting the hair and makeup,

10:16

be on set at seven, walk

10:18

through, run through, do

10:20

the talking, running the lines with Owen,

10:23

having some laughs, figuring out where everything's

10:25

at, doing the business of

10:27

the acting. And then, you know,

10:29

it was all pretty fun. I'm

10:31

here to tell you, it was pretty fun. From about

10:33

seven to I would say 12.30, it

10:35

was fun. From

10:38

12.30 to 3.30, I was a little tired and

10:42

they only needed my feet for a shot.

10:44

So that's where acting gets a little, that's

10:48

where it gets a little bit like,

10:52

I'm glad I'm doing this, but really gotta

10:54

stay just for the feet. You're just

10:56

getting the feet on this one for an

10:58

hour. My feet are just

11:00

part of the frame that you're gonna go buy

11:03

my feet. But you know what, it's

11:05

part of the job, there's no problem. And I think we

11:07

got some good stuff. Look folks, if

11:09

there's one thing we all have in common,

11:11

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11:13

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the show notes for all legal

12:09

disclaimers: So. Vancouver.

12:12

Beautiful. So. Far so good.

12:14

You know what I'm finding that made the i

12:16

romanticize it a little too much. It's heavily beautiful

12:18

cities. What a beautiful stuff. I even like the

12:21

weather. although it is, it seems to rain a

12:23

lot l yeah I was told this is a

12:25

good season. This. Is when it

12:27

doesn't rain as much what is right

12:29

or what, but there's also a little

12:31

bit traffic this construction you don't I'm

12:34

finding his apps maybe mice. My kind

12:36

of idealistic mythological idea of what Vancouver

12:38

was may not be exactly that, but

12:40

of still good. I'm good. I'm

12:43

good. So. Tony.

12:45

Goldwyn. as I said earlier,

12:47

a legacy. Butter.

12:50

His own guy. Big name

12:52

going. By. The he directed

12:54

this movie called Ezra starring a

12:56

Bobby Cannavale a Robert Deniro. And.

12:59

Or Rose Byrne. Bobby's. Weiss.

13:02

As well my players as an American

13:04

couple used to be married is good.

13:06

Diseases always ethical dimension to it. Starts

13:09

in theaters tomorrow May thirty first. And.

13:12

A disguise done a lot of different jobs

13:14

in the business of is great talk and

13:16

don't hear me talking to Tony. Goldwyn.

13:20

Have you ever own something that inspired

13:22

you to up your game Will for

13:25

me. Honestly, it's my stereo system. For

13:27

years I've wanted to stereo systems and

13:29

then at some point I realized like

13:31

hey, you're saving money by it So

13:33

I got a pretty tough line to

13:36

be driven. stereo systems. It is changed

13:38

my life. It's not only great for

13:40

listening to music, it's great for me

13:42

to sit there with my guitar while

13:44

I Gm or just rock out because

13:47

when we own exceptional things, they inspire

13:49

us to. do exceptional things just

13:51

like the all new lexus gs

13:53

it as an exceptional capability that

13:56

will have you seen possibilities you

13:58

never knew existed his advanced technology

14:01

and luxurious interior mean that wherever

14:03

you go, you'll never go without.

14:05

Available Dynamic Sky Panorama Glass Roof,

14:08

available front row massaging seats, available

14:11

33-inch all-terrain tires, and available multi-terrain

14:13

select system for off-road drivability. Any

14:16

of these options will help you

14:18

take your Lexus GX to the

14:20

limit, just like I did with

14:22

my stereo system. Live

14:24

up to the all-new Lexus GX. Luxury

14:27

beyond limits. It's

14:30

amazing. At your Lexus dealer.

14:39

I don't really see myself as an actor,

14:41

so I don't live the actor life. Right,

14:44

right. Because you are a good actor. Well,

14:46

I appreciate that. I

14:48

got to go to Vancouver, and I had to kind

14:51

of work it in that I got to come

14:53

home every two weeks to keep

14:55

up with this, but we got a lot of interviews in the

14:57

can. But I have a hard time leaving

14:59

home for that long. I don't know how you guys do

15:01

it. Yeah, it's hard. It is, right? Yeah.

15:04

Do you stress? I generally, no I

15:06

don't, because it's our life, you know. Well,

15:08

yeah, you're like you've been doing it forever.

15:10

Yeah, and my kids are grown, so it's

15:12

easy now. It was hard. I

15:14

stressed a lot when I had young kids. Oh, really? Yeah.

15:18

Didn't stop you. No. No. I

15:22

mean, I've only got cats and I'm freaked out. Yeah.

15:25

I'm like, is my cat going to remember me when I come home in

15:27

two weeks? But yeah, you

15:29

guys, they're from the kids? Yeah, it's

15:31

hard. It's hard. You

15:34

know, but they've turned out okay. Oh,

15:36

yeah? When they were

15:38

young, I just had a lot of, you know, I feel

15:40

so guilty. Yeah. But, you

15:43

know, my wife is also

15:46

in our industry, so she... What she did? She

15:48

got it. She's a production designer.

15:50

Okay. Yeah, really, really good one. So,

15:52

we kind of understood what the other person did. That's

15:54

the job. Yeah, it's the job. It was hard

15:56

there for a few years, but, you know, we're

15:58

still together. So that's

16:00

good. Yeah, long time. Yeah, and your

16:03

daughter's actress as well One

16:05

of them is an actress and my other one

16:07

is a writer. Yeah, so yeah, and they're both

16:09

making their way they are Yeah,

16:12

yeah there, you know as

16:14

this business goes, you know, it's up and down

16:16

but They're both

16:19

they're both, you know doing their thing. It's

16:21

great. That's great Now now are you comfortable

16:23

because you can move that mic where I

16:25

want just you can move it back. It's

16:27

cool Is this pretty good? Yeah.

16:29

Yeah. All right, you know how to talk I

16:31

do Let's get something out of the way if

16:33

in the beginning because I like to talk about

16:35

it and in terms of this generationally

16:40

Like how do you feel about the phrase nepo,

16:42

baby? It

16:46

amuses me I Think

16:49

I was a little late to I

16:51

only just heard the phrase the past

16:53

year I know it's like it's got

16:55

negative connotations But my argument has always

16:57

been that if your family's in a

17:00

business There's a real good chance

17:02

that the kids are gonna be in the

17:04

business either because you want them to carry

17:06

the torch or because It's what they grew

17:08

up with and it's not some sort of

17:10

negative connotation The the idea is

17:12

that they get they get special treatment, but

17:14

that may be once You

17:17

know, but it doesn't last a lifetime Yeah,

17:20

no, look at the thing there it's so

17:22

funny you mentioned it because first of all

17:24

I guess I'm a nepo, baby like a

17:26

third generation of their generation now My kids

17:28

are fourth generation nepo babies But if you

17:30

know your nepo baby that goes back to

17:32

the beginning of film the beginning of the

17:34

film industry, that's right And and

17:37

also yeah on my

17:39

mother's side in the theater World.

17:42

Oh, yeah My mother's father was a really

17:45

wonderful and successful playwright and

17:47

screenwriter So like her family was all in this theater

17:49

a Sydney Howard was his oh, yeah He did

17:51

some big movies. He did do some great

17:53

He he was like one of Pulitzer as

17:55

a playwright in the 20s and then the

17:57

30s. He was a very successful brother player

18:00

My old grandfather? My maternal grandfather. And then he

18:02

became a screenwriter in the 30s and wrote... He

18:08

died in his prime in a terrible

18:10

accident. And he wrote the screenplay for

18:12

Gone With the Wind, actually. Really? But

18:15

a lot of other really good movies. And

18:17

that was an MGM movie, but your... Wasn't

18:19

it? Yeah, it wasn't an MGM

18:21

movie. But your grandfather was not really involved

18:23

with MGM. No, but that's true. And you

18:25

want to get really in the weeds. So

18:27

no. So my grandfather, my

18:30

other grandfather, Samuel Goldwyn, who was one

18:32

of the pioneers, like founders of

18:34

the industry really. It's crazy because

18:36

I read An Empire of Their Own years ago.

18:38

Yeah, great book. It's a great book. And

18:41

I don't remember what was written about your grandfather?

18:43

Not much. He really wasn't in the book, which

18:45

surprised me because he was one of those Jews

18:47

from Eastern Europe. Felt like he

18:49

was in the original pack, but maybe he

18:51

didn't start a studio. Yeah, he started several

18:54

of what became... He started the company that

18:56

became Paramount. Right. He

18:59

never could get along with the corporate thing.

19:02

And so he tended to form partnerships and

19:04

then alienate his partners and go off on

19:06

his own. So he

19:08

started to get into the history for a second. He

19:11

started... He was a glove

19:13

salesman. I know, that's crazy. Yeah, he came over

19:15

by himself at 16 years old,

19:17

I think, from Poland on foot. Right. He

19:19

made his way to England and had an

19:22

uncle there and then had no money

19:24

and learned a bit of English and got on the bottom

19:26

of a boat. He came to America like so many people,

19:30

couldn't find any work. So he went up to

19:32

upstate New York, a town called Gloversville, which made

19:34

gloves. And he became a guy working

19:36

in the glove factory as a glove cutter and ultimately

19:38

became a very successful glove salesman. So

19:41

at about 30 years old, he was living in

19:43

New York, sort of the regional manager of the

19:45

elite glove company. Moving those gloves? Yeah, and he

19:47

sort of decided that this wasn't going to be

19:50

his future. And he walked in... He used to

19:52

walk from the Garment District to the Upper West

19:54

Side where he lived. And he walked

19:56

into a Nickelodeon movie theater, which was the very

19:58

first things we used to Like a nickel I

20:00

guess and see a short hand crank or no.

20:02

I don't know No, that's a hand crank or

20:04

like a little thing right? Yeah, you'd look in

20:06

a it was right about kind of in a

20:08

variety Yeah, you go in and you could maybe

20:11

there were multiple types of entertainment sure, but he

20:13

saw one of these these Short

20:15

films. Yeah three-minute thing He said that's the

20:17

future and he had a brother-in-law

20:19

his wife's brother had been he and his

20:22

wife Yeah had been

20:24

a vaudeville performers and she had actually married

20:26

him to get out of show business Yeah,

20:28

she married my grandpa and but her

20:30

brother-in-law who was sort of splashing around He

20:32

said look we're gonna get and we're gonna do this movie

20:35

thing Yeah, and his name is Jesse Lasky and the two

20:37

of them formed a company I think

20:39

his wife is actually not at all happy

20:41

about it. Yeah and They

20:43

started, you know a movie company and started making

20:45

these short films and they made the first Feature

20:48

length movie ever shot in Hollywood in

20:51

1913 called the squaw, man, huh? Which became

20:53

a big hit and kind of put their company on the

20:55

map So they then their company

20:57

was called famous players I think yeah, and

21:00

they that is the company

21:02

that became Paramount Pictures Wow and

21:04

then their partnership split up and he

21:06

partnered with some people called the Selwyn

21:09

Brothers were theater owners in Manhattan like

21:11

they were on theater No, they were

21:13

Broadway theater owners and his name

21:15

at that time was Sam Goldfish Yeah, and

21:18

they were the Selwyn Brothers, so they combined their names

21:20

to form Goldwyn pictures Oh and they had a movie

21:22

company and he changed his name to Samuel Goldwyn Was

21:24

that a business move or he just thought yeah, and

21:26

they sued him. They said you can't do that He's

21:29

I can call myself whatever the fuck I want So

21:32

he became a senator look like it was his company

21:34

That's where the lion logo came in and all that,

21:36

you know, and then that company was bought by The

21:40

Lowe's Corporation emerged with another studio called

21:42

Metro Sam

21:44

left that company and they

21:46

hired Louie B. Mayer Who

21:48

was an executive at Paramount to come run it and years later. He

21:51

put his name on the end of it. So Yeah,

21:53

so Sammy and then Samuel Goldwyn became one

21:56

of the first independent producers and had a very long career

21:58

and as own little studio distributed

22:00

through other, you know, through

22:02

like United Artists. He was one of the people

22:04

that started United Artists. Really? I

22:07

mean, I thought that was Adam. Charlie Chaplin and

22:10

Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford and him and a few other

22:12

people. Oh, he was there with the first act? They started

22:14

it, yeah, in 1920. What was it,

22:16

1920? That's crazy. And

22:19

he produced some big movies, Oscar winners. He did,

22:21

he did, yeah. One of the good, the winning

22:23

one, Best Picture Four was The Best Years of

22:25

Our Lives in 1946. Now, do

22:27

you know this guy? I knew him, I was almost, I

22:29

was 13 when he died. So

22:32

I knew him very well, yeah. Oh, so you had a

22:35

grandpa. I did, I didn't know much,

22:37

you know, I didn't really wasn't that aware at the time

22:39

of his, you know, I knew

22:41

he was a successful guy and he was a character,

22:44

but he was just my grandpa. Was he

22:46

a character? Yeah, I adored

22:48

him. We were really close. Yeah.

22:51

He'd retired like the year before I was born

22:53

when he made his last picture. So

22:56

yeah, he was great. And your dad

22:58

was in pictures, right? My dad was a producer,

23:00

yep. So he was the second generation and also

23:02

had a really successful career. He

23:05

was, my dad who was Sam Jr. Found

23:09

his success, real success after

23:11

his dad died. He

23:13

started a company in his father's name

23:15

called the Sam O'Goldwyn company and

23:18

became one of the first guys to

23:21

distribute independent movies in this country. Like

23:23

the whole indie movie, Mr. Pizza, he

23:25

did, Stranger Than Paradise,

23:27

Nick and Drama, she's the first movie he

23:30

did, Ken Branagh's first movies, Henry

23:32

the Fifth and alongside Miramax, these

23:34

companies that were coming up and a lot of them

23:37

lasted for a movie or two and

23:39

then they went under. But yeah, so

23:41

that was his deal. And yeah, he

23:44

died a few years ago. But yeah,

23:46

he had a great career. So it

23:48

is, we're all Nippo babies. Yeah, and

23:50

it's crazy that, you know, but you

23:52

know, when you talk about Nippo babies,

23:54

like being a film producer, like you

23:57

have a name, but it's not gonna get you

23:59

anywhere. unless you deliver the goods.

24:01

Well, here's, honestly, here's how I feel

24:04

about it. It's so funny you mentioned

24:06

it because my daughter, Anna, the writer,

24:08

she had this idea of doing a podcast

24:10

about this. And

24:14

she was going to do it initially with

24:16

her cousin, my niece, because they're both, who

24:18

was also a writer, very successful and doing

24:20

great. But they were like, and then they

24:23

thought the Nepo baby thing was getting over

24:25

done. So

24:27

she asked me if I would want to do

24:29

a podcast with her. So we're planning to do

24:32

a podcast to talk to other parents

24:34

and children who were in the same

24:36

game. But not necessarily film. No, film,

24:39

politics, sports, auto companies. We're interviewing a

24:41

friend of mine who's a really amazing

24:43

civil rights attorney and his daughter is

24:45

a public defender. Just

24:47

to talk to people because I've been fascinated

24:49

with it. And I know it was kind

24:52

of a source

24:54

of anxiety and neurosis

24:58

for you, for me, and I think for my father

25:00

about me, when I told him I wanted to become

25:02

an actor, it was rough. It

25:06

was hard for him. What did he say? You

25:09

know, he said, he

25:11

was like, he said, the first

25:13

thing he said, God bless him, was, look, this is

25:15

what you want to do. This is your passion. I

25:19

support you. But

25:21

you're on your own. He's like, you got

25:23

to figure this out for yourself. And I was like, that's the way I

25:25

want to do it. That's fine. He said, and

25:27

I also knew as an actor, he couldn't

25:29

really help me. Yeah. I think he did.

25:32

Your managers can barely help you. Exactly. Your

25:34

agents can barely fucking help you. Yeah. Even

25:36

if you have the best agent in town. That's so

25:38

true. That's so true. It's crazy. Yeah. So,

25:41

you know, and he said to me, I remember one

25:43

thing when I was about 17 and

25:46

thinking this is what I want to do.

25:49

This would be late seventies.

25:51

And he said to me, we were

25:53

walking down the street and we see a poster of

25:56

Saturday Night Fever. Yeah. Which

25:58

was huge. Yeah, and

26:01

he said you know the thing you need to know about this business

26:04

As an actor if you're not John Travolta by

26:06

the time you're 25 There's

26:09

really no career And

26:12

I just looked at him and I

26:14

went to myself I thought that

26:16

can't be true Right they came in he was

26:18

just in a state of anxiety so Yeah,

26:22

and I think he might have thought you know he was in a panic

26:25

So it turns out thank God it was

26:27

not true well I was John Travolta sure,

26:29

but it is kind of interesting

26:32

that you know that you were committed enough

26:34

So what did you how

26:36

did you approach it? I mean did people? Did

26:39

you get resentment from people because of

26:41

being a gold one you know? Probably

26:45

I wasn't that aware of it. I think

26:47

for me. I really learned that

26:49

it was It was my

26:51

own Thing I just had to

26:53

get over, but it's funny cuz you're like one of those guys

26:55

where people go like there's that guy Yeah,

26:57

like a character actor Yeah That's

26:59

and that's the way I always wanted to be in

27:01

what I thought of myself at the beginning And

27:04

I thought I just need to I knew I had to figure

27:06

out my own You know I

27:08

knew once I figured out my own identity. It would be

27:10

okay, so Yeah, and at

27:12

first let's see I started in New

27:15

York. You're working in the theater and and and

27:17

then Realized of a couple of years

27:19

of that I needed if I wanted to have any traction I

27:21

had to break into movies and television so I came when you

27:23

study in New York I Studied

27:26

well I went to college I

27:28

graduated in Brandeis in Boston and then

27:31

went to like theater school in London for

27:33

a couple of years Like which one it's

27:36

called lambda. Yeah, well in the Academy of

27:38

music and dramatic arts Yes, really

27:40

good really good, and it got me kind of

27:42

away from Hollywood and sure the show business So

27:44

all the shit I was worried about theater guy.

27:46

Yeah, yeah, and then I came back to New

27:48

York and and Studied

27:50

with like ooh to hagen and the real you

27:52

know yeah, yeah, yeah her class. Yeah, she's still

27:55

around she was amazing and You

27:58

know do that lightened class took class and just

28:00

what you do when you're starting out. Sure. And

28:02

worked out about Williamstown, you know, for a few years and

28:04

that's the theater festival and the Berkshires and that's- Sure, that's

28:07

famous. A lot of guys do that. Yeah, and then- And

28:09

you did like repertory kind of stuff? Like- It

28:12

was a summer theater. Yeah, I remember I listened to your

28:14

interview with Chris Pline

28:16

and he was talking about- Yeah. That

28:19

was a great interview. Yeah. I think he's so

28:21

talented. Um, so yeah, I like- You're

28:23

a good guy. I started out there, yeah. He's always really good.

28:25

Yeah, yeah, he is. Every time I feel like, oh, that guy

28:27

is so good. I've actually worked for his dad.

28:30

With his dad, I directed his dad in something

28:32

too. He's a really nice guy, yeah. On what?

28:35

I was trying to remember when I listened to that

28:38

interview, it was either, it was

28:40

on a television show, I think it might've been either

28:43

Dexter or Justify. I was trying

28:45

to narrow it down. I think he played a

28:47

judge or something. I remember directing him

28:49

and he was such a nice guy. Yeah. So

28:51

you're in London. You're in London? You're doing a

28:54

wave- Yeah, I was, you got my equity card

28:56

there. You're my union card. I did that for

28:58

a few years. Yeah. And

29:00

then just started trying to break into film

29:02

and TV, which was- Not a

29:04

theater initially? Took a few years. No, no, I did. I

29:07

worked at a bunch of theaters in New York and got work

29:09

pretty quickly. It was off Broadway and

29:11

stuff? Off Broadway and understudied on Broadway.

29:17

That was slow going, but I

29:19

was getting traction.

29:21

And what was your dad saying? He

29:24

was, it was

29:27

a little schizophrenic. He was super proud of

29:29

me. He came to see everything I did.

29:33

And at the same time, his anxiety

29:35

was high. So he just-

29:37

He knew the work. Yeah, he just was worried.

29:39

When I got my first big break in

29:42

a movie, which was the movie Ghost, which

29:45

I'd been working for five years before that

29:47

happened, then

29:49

I think he took a huge

29:51

sigh of relief because that also was his vernacular.

29:54

He understood what a big Hollywood

29:56

hit was. So that

29:58

gave him some comfort. But

30:00

that but that movie like you know your character,

30:02

you know, it's not a likable guy True

30:06

true statement But

30:08

I think that's why you know Why

30:11

I didn't I didn't horrible wasn't he? Yeah,

30:14

but I that really hurts my feelings No,

30:17

you know you take it I didn't see him that

30:19

way and I think the reason that it worked was

30:21

cuz I played him like yeah Like he like he's

30:23

a nice guy. Yeah, and then he turns out doing

30:25

this horrible You

30:27

know behaving extremely badly. Yeah, train his friend

30:29

and So anyway,

30:31

whatever that was what was like but

30:34

in terms of like so you think you know, this is it you

30:36

got a big role in a big movie and Did

30:39

that did you do such a

30:42

good job that people were like that guy scary?

30:46

Yeah, sometimes I mean

30:49

Gary people disliked me you like you get that

30:51

thing where you're Recognize people know they know you

30:53

from yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why and they're like, I

30:56

know I don't like you. Yeah, so You

31:00

know, but But

31:02

you don't think it's stifled your roles. It

31:04

did I mean you get typecast but that's

31:06

the way Hollywood works, you know, you're you

31:08

have to constantly reinvent yourself I know but

31:10

anything you do so first big movie, of

31:12

course, you're gonna take it no matter what

31:14

I can't imagine that going into It you're like,

31:16

there's gonna fuck me a little bit No,

31:19

are you kidding man? It was always a

31:21

great part. Yeah, and I was so grateful

31:24

to be in a movie.

31:26

Yeah Look

31:29

the whole the bargain I made with

31:31

myself Yeah, I was in my early 20s. I'm gonna

31:33

do this was I may never make

31:35

money and I just

31:37

want to work Yeah I get if I

31:40

if I'm working I'm gonna be so to

31:42

then you know Whatever six or seven years

31:44

later be playing one of the leads in

31:46

a movie that was really Good,

31:49

I just felt lucky. So Afterwards

31:52

after go so what'd you do after a ghost? Oh,

31:54

he was thrilled. He was just over the moon. He

31:56

couldn't believe it He was so excited so

31:59

so Your mom was always supportive?

32:01

Yeah, my mom was always supportive. Yeah,

32:03

sadly she died the year

32:06

or two after that. She got lung cancer and

32:08

passed away. But she always was because she'd

32:10

been an actress in

32:13

her first career in the

32:15

theater in New York. She was in the actor's

32:17

studio. And she worked with Kazan. And I thought

32:19

she was sort of of that world. So that

32:21

had real meaning to her. And she kind of

32:23

was living, I think, a little

32:25

bit vicariously through

32:27

me because she had given it up and become a painter.

32:30

Because it was hard. She had a hard time. So

32:33

yeah, she was good. But then she passed away.

32:35

But she got to enjoy that and a couple

32:37

of other movies that I did that were successful.

32:39

So that was cool. So

32:41

how does it go after Ghost? Like,

32:44

was it just kept working steady for

32:46

the rest of your life? Yes,

32:49

that's right. But it was weird,

32:51

man. I mean, so

32:53

the year I did Ghost, which

32:56

was this phenomenal hit out of

32:58

nowhere. And at the

33:00

same time, I was doing a play in New York. Well,

33:03

play. It became a big hit. And I won an Obie

33:05

Award for it. It was an off-Broadway play called The Sum

33:07

of Us. It was this Australian play. It

33:09

was a really beautiful play. And it was a very successful. We

33:11

started it actually at Williamstown and then brought it to New York.

33:14

And so in that year, I had this big

33:16

hit in the movies. I was in

33:18

this play. And I sort of had said to my agents, I

33:21

was like, OK, guys. Here we go. And

33:23

I guess now it all happened. And

33:25

then a year later, the next movie didn't

33:29

make as much money. And suddenly, I wasn't as hot

33:31

as I had been the year

33:33

before. Oh, at that point. Yeah,

33:36

but in the next two years, I was still working. So

33:38

I was grateful. And I was on the map. Yeah.

33:41

But I was

33:43

very confused by it. I found it really

33:48

disorienting. I'd

33:51

always been quite uncomfortable

33:53

with the whole sort of phenomenon

33:55

of celebrity fame. When it started to come

33:58

in my way, it made me. I

34:01

didn't know quite how to relate

34:04

to it. Yeah, well what effect did that have

34:06

on you? I

34:08

felt a little fraudulent. I was like, come

34:10

on, I'm just, suddenly

34:13

people who'd paid zero

34:15

attention to me were suddenly kissing my ass.

34:17

Right. And then... Probably

34:20

better that you didn't get your head too big. Yeah,

34:22

there's like a... Yeah, and also I knew that's one

34:24

of the great benefits of being a nepo

34:26

baby. Yeah. You

34:29

know, it's a working profession, you know, so

34:31

all the bullshit you can kind of, sure,

34:33

smell and the disingenuousness. So

34:36

the couple of years after that, it was

34:38

all going sort of fine. Like you said, I was

34:41

working and supporting my family and had started to have

34:43

kids and that was all good. And he did the

34:45

Pelican brief, I did the Pelican brief, which was successful.

34:49

And then, but, you

34:51

know, a couple of years into that, there was, you know,

34:53

there's ups and downs. So I've had

34:56

no control over my career and as you said

34:58

before, like you can't just rely

35:00

on your agents to do it for you. Yeah.

35:03

But were you also doing... Because if you nail

35:05

one in theater, I mean, you could be in

35:08

that show for months. Yeah,

35:10

it was much later that I did long

35:12

runs of plays. Once I,

35:15

you know, I would do stuff off Broadway, which is great

35:17

because you'd do like a six week run. Sure.

35:20

That play, The Sum of Us, because it was a hit, it

35:22

ran for, I think I did it for six months or something. That's

35:25

a lot. That was a lot for off

35:27

Broadway. And then I started getting movies. So I

35:29

kind of didn't work in the theater for a few

35:31

years because I was, you

35:33

know, really starting

35:36

to get movie roles. And

35:38

in those days, this is, you

35:40

know, before even probably before you came on

35:42

the scene, but in the 80s

35:45

and 90s, into the 90s,

35:47

if you worked in

35:50

television, it was almost impossible to break into film. Isn't

35:52

that crazy? Now it's broken into, now it's the opposite.

35:54

Now when you've broken it, once you've broken into film,

35:56

you couldn't go back to TV. So

35:59

that, you know, once I started, but... I've lost it through that. I

36:01

paid attention to just doing movies. So all through the

36:03

90s, you know, I just did

36:05

films. We did one Broadway play in the mid-90s.

36:08

Well, when you have that realization that, you

36:10

know, you don't have control over this, what

36:13

do you do? Well, in the, I

36:15

guess, you know, I decided

36:18

I wanted to get control. So

36:20

a couple years after Ghost, I

36:25

said I can't. This lack

36:28

of agency is,

36:30

I don't want to be doing this when I'm in

36:33

my 40s. Just job to

36:35

job, freaking out. Job to job, all of

36:37

my fortunes being on how my last project

36:39

did. You know what I mean? Like this

36:41

hot and cold thing and I just that

36:44

this is, I'm not going to tolerate this. This is not fun.

36:46

And I wanted to kind of expand

36:48

my, you know, my horizons anyway. And

36:51

one thing my dad always had said to me,

36:53

he was like, you're more than an

36:55

actor. You got a great

36:57

head for a story and you see, I think

36:59

you're a director, Tony. Yeah. I said,

37:01

I don't want to be a director. I want to be an actor. Why

37:04

didn't you want to be a director of your show? I just

37:06

didn't, I didn't think I had the ability. I didn't

37:08

have any interest and I was so focused on trying to

37:10

be a successful actor that I was just tunnel visioned about

37:12

it. And so

37:15

I started to think about what he said and

37:17

I thought maybe I need to start branching out.

37:20

The thing I assumed control over my career

37:22

was I started

37:24

looking for projects to produce so

37:27

that the next time I was in a hit, I

37:30

could say, here's this script, great role for me. I

37:32

want to do this when I had leverage. So

37:35

you opened a production company? No, no, not even that.

37:37

It was just me. And I got,

37:39

I started reading and found a couple of

37:41

scripts that I worked with

37:43

the writers on and one of them I really,

37:45

really loved and didn't actually feel that right to

37:47

act in it. But I

37:49

said to the writer, let's start

37:51

working on it and I'll produce

37:54

it for you. And a

37:56

few years into doing that because it takes time. And

37:58

you've produced a production company? My brother

38:01

John is a very successful producer too. But he... My

38:04

younger brother runs a production company. He took

38:06

over my dad's company and has done very,

38:08

you know, really... So that wasn't really your

38:10

wheelhouse. Did you have to... How did

38:12

you learn how to produce? Just by doing

38:14

it. You know, for me it's

38:16

all... Which means you had a couple of

38:18

scripts that you got from writers and then

38:20

if you kind of brought them

38:23

through the process, you would try to find

38:25

a star to attach and...

38:28

Yeah. Yes. I

38:30

mean, it was a slower process because I didn't fucking know. I mean...

38:33

Well, that sounds strange. You know, I had... I

38:36

called CAA and I was like, this is what I want to do. And

38:39

they started sending me tons of scripts that were

38:41

not very good. And then I found a young

38:44

woman who worked at that agency

38:46

who was kind of in charge of all the material

38:48

around town. She knew everything. She was like the story

38:50

editor and she turned me on to this great script.

38:53

I kind of fell in love with it. It was called...

38:55

At the time it was called The Blouse Man. And I

38:57

said, I got to meet this writer. And we started working

39:00

on it. And I said, I don't really think this is

39:02

for me to act in. She said, but

39:04

would you produce it because I really love your ideas? So it

39:06

was all like as an artist, I just said, this is what

39:08

I think you should do to make your script better. Yeah.

39:11

And so we worked literally for a few years on it.

39:14

And then I got it

39:16

into really good shape and I started

39:18

meeting directors to give it to. Yeah.

39:21

And I thought, they're going to fuck it up. I don't

39:23

trust that we've worked so hard on this. It was a

39:25

delicate piece. I thought they're going to screw it

39:27

up. And one day I went, oh, Pop

39:30

was right. I need to do this myself. So

39:33

I called her up. I was like, Pam, sit down. I

39:36

think I want to direct this myself, the writer. And

39:38

she said, great. And then

39:40

I didn't know how I was going to get it off the

39:42

ground. And I got a call randomly

39:46

from CAA and agency saying, Tony, you control

39:48

The Blouse Man, don't you? I

39:51

said, yeah. And you want to direct it, right? I said, yeah.

39:53

He said, well, Dustin Hoffman wants to read it. I

39:56

said, what? He said, Dustin Hoffman is

39:58

a production company and they've just... raised

40:00

money to finance a bunch of

40:02

independent films. And he heard

40:04

somehow about your script, which I hadn't shown anybody.

40:07

And so I sent it to Dustin's company

40:10

and like two days later they called and

40:12

said, we want to make a deal with you and

40:14

you can direct it. And

40:16

it's like after three years of working on

40:18

this thing, all of a sudden we were

40:21

starting to cast the movie. And six months later I

40:23

was directing a feature film. It was just one of

40:25

these... It was called The Blouse.

40:27

And then we changed the title. And a Miramax

40:29

distributed it ended up being called A Walk on the

40:32

Moon. It was a movie

40:34

with Diane Lane and Viggo Mortensen and Leif

40:36

Schreiber. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was 1999. And

40:40

that did all right. It did really well. Yeah,

40:42

yeah, yeah. And that suddenly changed things

40:44

for me because I got great reviews and I got

40:46

a lot of attention with Sundance and it was a

40:49

big... And that was the first thing you ever directed?

40:51

Mm-hmm. So now, okay, so just

40:53

tell me, you know, because I'm thinking about directing

40:55

a movie. So now you've

40:57

just kind of figured out this thing.

40:59

You got agency support and you want to direct.

41:02

But when you get the money to direct,

41:04

I mean, do you feel confident as a director?

41:07

No. I knew I didn't know what

41:09

I was doing. So what do you do then? Well,

41:13

it was... I knew what to do because...

41:15

From being on sets? I'd been on sets

41:17

for 10 years at that point. I'd worked

41:19

with a number of first-time directors and I'd

41:21

worked with some really good ones and some

41:24

ones who failed. Yeah. And

41:26

the ones who failed were

41:28

the ones who knew, who thought they had to

41:30

know everything. Right. Who wanted

41:32

to become an expert at the camera and know

41:34

all the lenses. Yeah. They

41:36

insisted, they had a preconception of how it was supposed to

41:38

be. And the ones who were

41:40

successful were the ones who said, I know what I'm good

41:42

at, I know what I know, and I

41:45

know what I don't know, so I need help. Right.

41:48

And that was... And also the way... Like

41:51

what I did is I... So I hired great people and I

41:53

said, I don't know what the fuck I'm

41:55

doing. I don't know anything about... I've been on

41:57

sets a lot. I know about acting and

41:59

I know... script. I know what story I want to

42:01

tell. So, but I need you

42:03

to teach me coverage, shots, you know, I've script

42:05

supervisor. I was like you have to make sure

42:07

I get all the coverage I need. It said

42:09

to me, I hired a DP, a wonderful DP

42:11

named Tony Richmond, who'd like

42:13

been in the business for 35 years to shoot

42:16

for Nicholas Rogue. He was a camera assistant on

42:18

Lawrence of Arabia. He shot the Beatles movies. You

42:20

know, and they said he's had a man who

42:22

fell to earth. He, um... What's his name? Tony

42:24

Richmond. He was a great British DP. And then

42:27

he'd since, you know, he'd done a lot of

42:29

great films. He shot Don't Look Now, you know,

42:31

with Donald Sutherland and Julia Christie. And so,

42:33

but he had also shot Sean

42:36

Penn's first movie as an actor, the Indian

42:38

Runner, which Vigo was also in.

42:40

And that was only a couple of years before

42:42

this. And I'd really liked Sean's movie. And he'd

42:44

worked with a number of first-time actor-directors. So I

42:46

was like, you're perfect for me. And you need

42:49

to teach me. So we did that. And I

42:51

had the same thing with my designers. So that

42:53

was... It was great. It was great. You got

42:55

him. You had a meeting. You give him the

42:57

script. Yeah. And he would be

42:59

like, it was awesome. Because, you know, like the

43:01

line producer who, you know,

43:04

is saying, you're never going to make your day. You

43:06

have to change the schedule. You have to cut scenes.

43:08

Yeah. And he'd just get

43:10

and defend me. He'd go, you don't

43:12

think we can make this? Fucking watch us.

43:14

And he'd go, come on. And he just,

43:16

he was great, man. He was wonderful. And

43:18

he just was into you and the script

43:20

and that was what it was? Yeah, we

43:22

got each other. And I said, look, I

43:24

know what I... Like I said, I know

43:26

what story we're telling here. And

43:28

then you learn, man, you realize you

43:31

know much more than you think you know. Yeah. So I

43:33

didn't know what lens to put on the camera. But when

43:35

I looked through, I knew if a shot

43:37

was working or something. Do you know now? Pretty

43:39

much. But I do the same thing now. You know,

43:41

I mean, I've done five

43:43

feature films and directed a lot of television.

43:46

And every time you start a new project, I'm almost

43:49

like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I

43:51

don't know if this is going to work or if this is going to be

43:53

a disaster. Sure. You know, so I've come

43:55

to really embrace that student Mentality.

43:59

But You got... I mean you you, You

44:01

are able to get mentor die. This guy who really

44:03

knew his resume. Mood for the first

44:05

time out. Yeah and I and

44:07

I'm one of the things you learn that

44:09

stay with you. From. That get

44:11

let the actors you serious. Let the actors tell

44:13

you where to place the camera. Regular.

44:16

that was the biggest thing. I mean said a

44:18

lot to me, but opposite he would always because

44:20

I am. in terms of. Shortlisting:

44:23

Yeah, I never shallowest, innovative, never do.

44:25

And he said, don't shallowest He said

44:27

Tony, I've been doing this for forty

44:29

years. You'll get to shots. Don't shallowest.

44:31

Yes. Day present in what's happening, right?

44:34

And watch what the actors are doing. And

44:36

the scene will. Evolve and you

44:39

know how to stage it is you're an

44:41

actor he asked and then based on what

44:43

the actors are doing that will tell us

44:45

where the cameras post ago we might have

44:47

an idea of a shot we want to

44:49

do. We might like a cool saying we

44:51

saint or we need to order a piece

44:53

of machinery ahead because yeah yeah you got

44:55

a plan for marine a crane Are you

44:57

know we have an idea? yeah but he's

44:59

had to it's everything is be changeable and

45:01

and react to what's happening in the present.

45:03

that was the greatest device him in and

45:05

subsequently I've worked with some world class Dps

45:07

who the best. Of them worked away.

45:09

You know, whether it's Janice Kaminsky,

45:11

you know, Whoever whoever did shall

45:13

live commercials with and and did.

45:15

he did stay on A shadow

45:17

of a Pilot that I that

45:19

I've produced and directed and. And

45:22

younger suits you know. She told Steven

45:24

Spielberg's movies as one to academy away

45:26

and is brilliant. Mance you Eve when

45:28

not Yannis In our preparing this pilot

45:30

of the series that had called the

45:33

Divide Frame see. How

45:35

we recently I were talking about the script

45:37

and as i don't have snow normally are

45:39

are are go through we can talk and

45:41

prepare and go through script and his his

45:43

polish in his attorneys. If. You

45:45

want to we can talk but we

45:47

don't need to talk of like y

45:50

el de anda since he the way

45:52

he worked with completely. here

45:54

he has a dd and his genius

45:56

yeah we eat see just shows up

45:58

the set And when

46:00

there's actors on the set

46:02

and you're in a rehearsal, he's like an eagle.

46:05

His eyes are just glued and

46:07

in about 30 seconds he's like, yep, then we're going to do

46:09

this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. He

46:12

completely is responding to what's happening in

46:15

the present moment. So anyway, that's the related thing.

46:18

That's the thing I've learned. It's

46:21

just become my watchword as a director. Well,

46:24

that's interesting because I know some directors

46:26

are kind of micromanagy and there are

46:28

certain specific types of

46:30

directors who will micromanage

46:33

everything. But that's not the vibe

46:36

that you want. It's just not how

46:38

I've ever done my best work as an actor. The thing

46:40

that, look, you work with some world-class

46:42

directors who have planned everything out

46:45

in advance and they know exactly what they're going to do.

46:49

And as actors, our jobs are to fulfill that

46:51

vision. People's brains work in different ways. Being

46:54

an actor, if I

46:57

did that, it would be shitty. It

46:59

wouldn't be how I would do good work. So what

47:02

I said to myself when

47:04

I did that film, I walk on the moon, I was

47:06

like, what would

47:09

be my ideal director?

47:12

What are the qualities I've most craved

47:14

and so rarely had in directors

47:16

as an actor? So let me just try and be that.

47:18

So it was about creating a space

47:21

that people would want to work in and then

47:23

surround myself with

47:25

good people. So yeah, that's just been my

47:27

style. Some things haven't worked,

47:29

some things have not been

47:31

successful. Like what? The

47:35

things that I've done that have been less successful

47:38

are when I've done

47:40

them because I thought it

47:42

was a strategic career move. The

47:46

movie I did after A Walk

47:48

on the Moon was one that

47:51

I wasn't terribly proud of. I think

47:53

it's fine, people seem to like it. But it was a

47:55

romantic comedy called Someone

47:57

Like You. It's

48:00

with Ashley Judd and Hugh Jackman. And we had a great

48:02

time making it, and Ashley and Hugh were great, and Greg

48:04

Knier was in it and Marissa Tomei. Yeah. But

48:07

it was a fairly studio kind of

48:09

generic programmer of a rom-com. So

48:12

you took a gig. I took a gig, and they,

48:14

you know, it was very well paid, and it was

48:16

green lit, and stars attached, and I thought, oh, this

48:19

will be super commercial, so I should do this. Did

48:21

you get to pick your AD, your

48:23

DP? Uh-huh. I got to pick

48:25

everybody. Yeah. And then Fox, who produced it,

48:27

were great, but it was very much thinking,

48:29

oh, this is the right commercial move, and

48:31

it ended up being fine. Yeah. You

48:34

know, it wasn't much of an expression of,

48:37

you know, from my heart.

48:39

Well, that's interesting, though, because when you look at

48:41

it, like, you know, your grandfather and your father,

48:43

you know, who are producers, and they may not

48:45

be directors, but you start to realize, like, well,

48:47

you're going to have, you know, one good one

48:50

to every five okay ones. Yeah.

48:53

You know, because, like, it's just the nature of

48:55

the business. I don't think people really think about

48:57

that unless they know what producers do, because you

48:59

look at, like, old Hollywood. I mean, they were

49:02

churning out hundreds of fucking movies. Oh, no, that's

49:04

so right, Mark. That's right. And nobody, you

49:06

know, most people don't know any of them unless they're a deep

49:08

film nerd, but a lot of them were just, they

49:11

knew going in that was just going to

49:13

be okay. Yeah. But they got to still

49:15

get asses in the seats. Yeah,

49:17

and they would make, I mean, the unfortunate, when

49:20

you were a director, you know,

49:23

particularly in this day and age, in the

49:25

studio days, you would direct 10 movies.

49:27

Yeah. Your friend made me not 10,

49:29

but I mean, you would just be put on assignment, assignment,

49:31

assignment, assignment, assignment, and then if you were a really terrific

49:33

director, you know, every couple of

49:36

years, you'd have one that hit, and if

49:38

you're, you know, if you're William Wyler or

49:40

Billy Wilder or, you know, you

49:42

know, the great directors of John Ford, you

49:46

know, but those guys directed a lot of movies

49:48

that we'd never have heard of. Right, because they

49:50

were in the system. But in modern day, it's

49:52

a much more freelance endeavor. So if

49:54

you are making a movie every few

49:56

years, you're incredibly prolific. So

49:59

you know. I mean, I've directed five

50:01

movies now, and the only thing I do

50:05

now is I'm

50:08

just not going to do it if it's not from,

50:10

you know, my heart, my guts.

50:13

Because hey, it takes, it's really hard work. It takes

50:15

a couple of years. Yeah. Even when

50:17

it's green lit, it takes a couple years to get through

50:19

the process. Not to mention how many years it's taken you

50:21

to develop it, to get it to the point where

50:23

it's actually going to happen. I know, it's great. It's

50:25

always been a deterrent to me. Oh, it's nuts. It's

50:28

like, you know, like... And after you go the full

50:30

arc, who the hell knows what's going to happen to

50:32

it once you get it out there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:34

No, exactly. You never know. Yeah.

50:37

I mean, and with independent film, your movie may never even get released.

50:39

I mean, we premiered at TIFF

50:41

this year with my new film Ezra.

50:43

And you know, thank God

50:45

we sold the movie, but it was in that

50:47

we financed it independently. And until you

50:50

sell it, you have no idea. You could like, it

50:53

could not find an audience. I love

50:55

that movie. And we'll talk about it

50:57

in a second. But like,

50:59

I just want to know. So during this time, you're directing and

51:01

you've got all these things going. I imagine you have people working

51:03

for you. No. You

51:06

mean as like a production company? Yeah. No,

51:08

it's weird, man. I never, I started

51:11

to like assemble an

51:13

operation and I just, it's not

51:15

my style. I was much more, I would put

51:17

together for each venture what

51:19

I needed. So, but you're taking acting gigs all

51:21

the way through it. Yeah.

51:25

And you're producing a movie too? Often,

51:28

yeah. And I love that. You

51:31

know, like I remember I made a movie in

51:33

2010 called Conviction. And

51:38

it was just so fun. Like that was a movie that

51:40

took eight years to get in front of the camera. It

51:42

was greenlit. You produced it in acting. I produced it, developed

51:44

it from a, you know, it was a true story. So

51:46

from something you saw on the news, worked on it,

51:49

it was greenlit and fell apart two or three times.

51:51

We finally got it made. And

51:53

you know, and when we

51:55

were just finishing up that movie, I was also

51:57

doing a Broadway musical as an actor. and

52:00

then leaving the theater and then going to the

52:02

cutting room and it was just awesome to be

52:04

able to go back and forth and and and

52:07

and do all that and then Yeah,

52:09

so it was I like it's great

52:11

to be able to so but you do that

52:13

man with this and you're and You're

52:15

right stand up and going and doing I guess I

52:18

think gigs right don't you like the mixing it up

52:20

in that way Well, I I don't know

52:22

if for me Like

52:24

I am painfully me all the time like

52:26

I don't do acting roles and I haven't yet

52:28

so am I I got new We

52:31

are all Like

52:34

what I do an acting role, I'm not like, oh

52:36

great I can just lose myself in this character. It's

52:38

like usually, you know two or three days into an

52:40

acting role I'm like, this is basically me Yeah,

52:45

I don't know I think if you're working right

52:48

it should always feel like that that it's basically

52:50

you yeah, okay I think

52:52

so like I mean I have actually played characters

52:54

who people go. Oh my god You were so different

52:56

from that's so different from the other thing. I was

52:58

like didn't really feel like that Okay. Well,

53:00

that's good to know because you know, I can see

53:03

that when I do things you're gonna like if you're

53:05

not one of these Transformational

53:07

people that's gonna spend you know,

53:10

three months learning a Polish accent or

53:12

something You know, you are just

53:14

kind of dealing with your emotional tools But

53:17

when you get a script to act in you know, how

53:19

do you start to do the work? Is it all on

53:21

the page for you? Like

53:25

I said before Every time

53:27

I do something I go I have no idea how to

53:29

do this and I've been doing it for

53:31

I know I couldn't sleep last Night because hey, I'm like

53:33

I can't do this. They got the wrong guy. I think

53:36

most of my Personality is a

53:38

fraud. So I don't know how but then like I

53:41

somehow spun that in my anxiety head I'm like, well

53:43

that means you're acting so just make

53:45

up another guy. Yeah, if you're a fraud great

53:47

You know take notes on you know what you're

53:49

getting away with now Exactly

53:52

look whatever works man. I I've and

53:54

and I've sort of made friends with

53:56

that. Yeah with that sort of terror

53:58

of going I literally don't know what

54:01

I'm doing. And anything I used as a technique

54:03

before has abandoned me. It doesn't work anymore. And

54:06

I've just kind of... So every

54:08

time I feel like I'm reinventing it,

54:11

like inventing a new approach, a new technique, a new

54:13

way to get inside of it. And I

54:15

was just... Some things are very... You know, I

54:17

get cast. I just saw you in hacks. It feels very similar

54:19

to me. See, I did a part in hacks. You did hacks.

54:22

And that's fine. And then other things I've done seem

54:24

a great distance from what I'm

54:26

like as a person. But

54:30

again, if you're learning... There are certain technical challenges

54:32

if you have to learn an accent

54:34

or... I don't know. I

54:36

did that once. Did you enjoy it? Kind of.

54:39

But like... Did you go to a coach

54:41

and stuff? I did a coach for Two Leslie. I did a

54:43

mild kind of tech... Oh, you loved that movie

54:45

by the way. Oh, thanks. Yeah. And

54:48

you were great in it. Oh, thanks. And

54:50

I think I got away with it. The coach

54:52

found me a fairly manageable Texan thing.

54:54

But then when you're doing that, even when you

54:56

do the coach, you've got that phonetic sheet. So

54:59

like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

55:01

then you've got to... You kind of make

55:03

choices around the line, but then make sure

55:05

you're hitting all the consonants correctly. So that's

55:07

another layer to the work. It is. But

55:10

that guy, for example, I would say... We

55:12

haven't known each other for that long. But knowing

55:14

you from listening to you, talking your end,

55:16

you're watching your comedy and stuff, that

55:19

guy had a very different energy... Totally.

55:21

...than you do in the world. Well, the two big characters

55:24

I played, Sam, Sylvia, and Glow,

55:26

and this guy, they both had

55:28

a certain lack of a type

55:31

of neurotic self-awareness that I have. So

55:34

if you take that away, then

55:37

that's what I figured out about acting.

55:39

It's like, what of me do I

55:41

have to remove or amplify? Yeah. Right?

55:45

So this guy's not neurotic. Well, great. That's going

55:47

to be a break for me. That's really good.

55:49

I'm going to steal that. That's good. That's helpful.

55:52

Because that's sort of what you're doing. Yeah. Right?

55:55

And I knew with the two-lessly thing

55:57

that he was fundamentally codependent. with

56:00

this person because of whatever his life had been. He

56:04

was that kind of guy, kind of a

56:06

selfless, slightly beaten fellow. And

56:09

I can relate to that to a certain degree, but

56:11

also I knew it was her movie.

56:13

So on and off screen, I'm like, I'm

56:16

co-defendant. Right, right, right, right, right. And

56:18

it helped to do that. So

56:22

I was able to use that. Yeah,

56:25

but that's the thing, look, I mean,

56:27

what keeps me interested in

56:30

the job is that is,

56:35

I love that thing you just said about sort of

56:37

muting certain parts of yourself. So you have to have

56:39

a certain self-awareness of like, oh yeah, that doesn't feel

56:41

right to me because I tend to approach things in

56:43

this way. So I'm just gonna dial that, pull

56:46

that fader down. We're trying

56:49

to tap into something as, in

56:53

the same way that we will watch

56:55

a movie and see whoever playing

56:58

a role, Andrea Rispero, are you doing

57:00

that part? And I don't

57:02

know Andrea, but I can imagine she's not like

57:04

Leslie, and go. Oh my

57:06

God, she's British. You're dealing

57:08

with one of the transformational,

57:13

savant. Oh, she's a

57:15

master. But I'll see this

57:17

character that's so different and yet I

57:20

completely relate to her. I completely

57:22

get it. So we all have all of that in ourselves

57:24

and in our sort of collective humanity. If

57:26

the script is good. So you're like, okay, let

57:29

me turn up the volume on that thing that

57:31

I just never live in that space. So

57:33

I'm gonna explore this part of myself. So

57:35

then yet again, it is yourself. It's just

57:37

yourself into different circumstances. And if you're lucky,

57:40

you're a little nervous about

57:42

that space because you avoid it in yourself. And

57:45

then you really get something out of it. For sure. Because

57:48

I did one scene with Robert

57:50

De Niro on The Joker. He's

57:52

a guy that's gonna do his job no matter what. Whether

57:55

you're doing a good job or not. Yeah, and he

57:57

doesn't judge either. I mean, how do you work to him? He's

58:00

just present. Yeah, right. It's

58:02

kind of a fascinating thing because you

58:04

got like an amazing performance out of

58:06

him. I mean, like sometimes like older

58:08

De Niro, like when he

58:10

does these working class characters that are

58:12

quirky, it's really some

58:15

of the best stuff he does. You

58:17

know, he figures out, like I'm

58:20

a little more attentive to the work. Like,

58:22

you know, this guy was a boxer when he was

58:24

younger. So he has that weird thing he does with

58:26

his hands every so often. But you didn't tell him

58:28

to do that. That well, I did

58:32

actually. He was

58:34

in the script much

58:36

more because we worked

58:39

a lot on his character and he was

58:41

very helpful and made a

58:43

huge contribution to

58:46

the development of his character in the script. But

58:49

the character has always been a boxer and he

58:51

used to have like monologues about boxing. And the

58:53

original scripts? In the original script. And we started

58:55

to strip it away because it was unnecessary backstory

58:57

that we just didn't need. And

59:00

yet there was a few vestiges of it remained. And

59:02

we had one scene where he was, there

59:07

was a scene with Rose Byrne when he's upset with her

59:10

and he does this like

59:12

shadow boxing thing to burn. You know, to deal with this

59:14

frustration. And Bob was like, I

59:17

don't know about the boxing. I

59:20

was like, well, just give it a try. You don't know if it

59:22

doesn't work for you. Let's just do it, take her. And

59:25

she was like, yeah, I don't know. Okay, I'll

59:27

try it, I'll try it. You know, and he

59:29

did it and it was good.

59:31

You know, it worked. Did he feel that? I don't know.

59:34

But then he did it another time where

59:36

they're like at a gas station and he gets in and he's doing the

59:38

same thing. I think I just said, you just

59:40

try it. And then he kind of picked

59:43

it up as a little. Yeah, he was a little uncomfortable

59:45

with it, but it definitely worked. But the

59:47

funny thing is that guy out of all the actors, he

59:49

knows how to throw a punch. Totally, exactly right. He

59:51

was Jake LaMotta for like years. Like,

59:53

you know, and it comes back. So,

59:57

but yeah, I mean, that's interesting about acting.

1:00:00

Like right now I'm in it. I got to leave for Vancouver

1:00:03

tomorrow and I did you're gonna move it right

1:00:05

now. No, it's a TV show. Mm-hmm. It's with

1:00:07

Owen Wilson You know, but like last night

1:00:09

I had that sort of like, you know horrible You

1:00:12

know kind of couldn't sleep. Yeah, and I'm like,

1:00:14

I'm terrible. There's no way I'm gonna how

1:00:16

much why they're fucking hire me Maybe I can Maybe

1:00:20

the best thing it happened. They fire me Recommend

1:00:25

a few guys they could they could use I

1:00:28

love being older now Cuz

1:00:30

I just can have such a sense of humor about my

1:00:32

own neurosis. Yeah Cuz I

1:00:35

have the same sleepless nights you do you know and

1:00:37

be like or or finish finish a day's work with

1:00:39

a great director And be like, oh fucking suck. I

1:00:41

blew that. Hey, you know, it's like whether

1:00:43

it's you know Nolan or one of

1:00:46

these kind of great others in you're like, what'd

1:00:48

you do at Nolan? I was an Oppenheimer Oh,

1:00:51

that's right. I was actually in a lot

1:00:53

of the movie, but I didn't have that but I was the guy who

1:00:56

was the chaired

1:00:58

the committee That stripped

1:01:00

him of his security clearance. Yeah, you know,

1:01:02

they're all these hearing rooms. I was basically

1:01:05

like Kind of

1:01:07

an extra I was in you know, that's like you

1:01:09

cut back and forth throughout the movie to this hearing

1:01:11

We yell and he's ripped and I was the chair

1:01:13

so yeah, you know, I mean I would mainly was

1:01:16

right are going with all these amazing actors coming in

1:01:18

and Testifying right before I'd be

1:01:20

like yes general continue general. Thank

1:01:22

you general. Yes over the next witness Oh

1:01:26

man, I was thrilling it was

1:01:28

right before we did Ezra so being on

1:01:30

his set was super inspiring because he's just That

1:01:33

was worth it. You know for the week or two,

1:01:35

whatever. I worked on that movie just to be yeah

1:01:38

I just watched tenant and I don't get it, but

1:01:40

it's alright. I know that's really confusing. I didn't understand

1:01:43

I understand. He's a great director. I didn't get it

1:01:45

but um, cuz I liked Oppenheimer and I

1:01:47

like the Batman one, but uh But

1:01:50

that's it. But that's that's interesting because like it's

1:01:52

so weird to be an actor and they go

1:01:54

Okay, we're moving on and in your head.

1:01:56

You're like, but are you sure because I don't

1:01:59

know if you Oh yeah, I always. But

1:02:01

they got it. Probably, yeah, always. I mean,

1:02:05

now I kind of insist and

1:02:08

go, no, I need to, like before they even, I'm going

1:02:10

to do another one. I mean, I want to go

1:02:12

again. Can we go again? Yeah. And

1:02:14

then if a director's really certain and

1:02:17

they say, no, we're good, I like it, we're

1:02:19

good, we got to move on. And you're like,

1:02:21

okay. Yeah, but then you watch that thing and

1:02:23

you're like, that was that moment where I didn't

1:02:25

quite nail it. Yeah, but I'm

1:02:28

often wrong about that. Yeah, I was good. Oh yeah,

1:02:30

like I will worry

1:02:32

about things not working. Yeah.

1:02:35

And I've learned, then I'll watch it and I'll be like, that

1:02:37

was fine. What was I worried about? And in fact, something else

1:02:39

I thought was really good, I'd be like, that wasn't so good.

1:02:44

So you just can't, you just have to. Those

1:02:46

are going to be more sensitive about it than

1:02:48

anyone else. Of course. But I

1:02:50

do find it's helpful to just,

1:02:53

at the times that I go, can I just

1:02:55

do another one and need another take? Yeah. Even

1:02:58

if a director says no? Yeah. Usually they

1:03:00

say yes. Sure. Even

1:03:02

if they say no, you at least try it. And

1:03:04

then I can go, you know what? I wanted

1:03:06

another one. As opposed to that

1:03:08

horrible feeling as an actor when you're like, I'm

1:03:11

not sure if I got it. Yeah.

1:03:14

Okay, you want to move on? All right, I guess it's okay.

1:03:16

Yeah. And then you just walk away feeling. But

1:03:18

if you're like, I need another one and you've just said this.

1:03:20

Yeah. Right. You're somehow

1:03:22

absolved. Yeah. Well,

1:03:24

that's the great thing about digital. You know, you're

1:03:26

not like, you know, spinning machines. You're like, digital

1:03:28

affords you a little more

1:03:31

leeway. It does. Other than shooting

1:03:33

on film when you're burning through film. We shot

1:03:35

two less away on film in like three weeks.

1:03:37

Three weeks. I know films are expensive.

1:03:39

But it's like no more than two takes. Right. It's

1:03:41

crazy in the middle of COVID. The only time people are

1:03:44

actually talking to each other face to face is when me

1:03:46

and Andrea or any of the other actors are on screen.

1:03:48

Wow. That was the only time. Like

1:03:50

the only time that masks were off was sort

1:03:52

of like... Wasn't that horrible? Oh, God. Doing

1:03:54

that. It was a little intense. I

1:03:56

think I have PTSD about the whole thing. the

1:04:00

experience with directing TV, kind of

1:04:02

how did that add to your

1:04:04

abilities? It was... You've

1:04:07

done a lot. Excuse me. I have done a lot of

1:04:09

TV and there was a period where I did too much. Like

1:04:12

I directed, I guess, my first

1:04:14

two movies. Yeah. And then I

1:04:17

got offered a television show

1:04:20

and my agent said,

1:04:22

I don't think you should do this because, you

1:04:25

know, TV, it'll be like a step

1:04:27

down or something. And I thought,

1:04:29

you know what, first of all, I've never been that precious

1:04:31

about my career. Second of all, if

1:04:33

I only direct a movie every four years,

1:04:36

how much does that make me a better director? Like

1:04:39

I want to just work and shoot. Right. So

1:04:41

I said yes and I enjoyed it. It's sort of like

1:04:43

doing an abbreviated version of a movie. It's

1:04:45

a different job in a way. But you

1:04:47

have to work very fast and you only

1:04:49

have like a week to prep. Whereas in a movie you

1:04:51

prep for six months and maybe you prep for years if

1:04:53

you're working up. So you got

1:04:55

to and then you shoot for however many days. You

1:04:57

shoot the, you know, eight, ten

1:05:00

days. It's a bigger budget thing, maybe more,

1:05:02

but not much more. And then you

1:05:04

do your cut in a few days and then you turn

1:05:06

it in. Whereas I cut a movie for

1:05:08

six months. Wow. The television show you cut in five

1:05:10

days and then you turn it over to the producers.

1:05:13

So it makes you work very quickly and you work

1:05:15

on a lot of different kinds of material. And you're

1:05:17

not as married to it. And as married, it's like

1:05:19

a workout. So it was like going to the gym.

1:05:21

You know what I mean? Sure. And

1:05:24

then you have to have a major of it, particularly doing like some

1:05:26

network stuff where they have a very established formula to

1:05:28

do it. You know, you

1:05:30

have to be careful you don't turn into, you know, skits

1:05:33

out for mediocre. You're like, oh, this is just how we

1:05:35

do it. Okay, crank it out and make the day. Then

1:05:38

you start to get bored and you can

1:05:40

get, you really,

1:05:42

in television, you can,

1:05:44

I think personally, you can really see

1:05:46

when something's well-directed and when it's just

1:05:49

okay. Like I'll watch

1:05:51

a series and I'll go, who directed that episode? Yes.

1:05:54

You really notice when there are,

1:05:56

when they nail it, when there, you go,

1:05:58

who is that person? And I'm

1:06:00

always super impressed with good television director because then

1:06:02

everyone's fine But there are a lot of people

1:06:04

who just do you know Yeah People have a

1:06:07

point of view that you can notice point of

1:06:09

view and you know, they've paid attention to the

1:06:11

detail and the performances It really all

1:06:13

of them are good and the shots are

1:06:15

not generic They're kind of motivated and it feels

1:06:17

like the cameras alive and it's not just repeating

1:06:20

every day. They shoot the same. Yeah Yeah, yeah, they do it.

1:06:23

So I you know, I always Well,

1:06:25

that's why I noticed about like cuz when I

1:06:27

got sent Ezra your new movie Mm-hmm. I didn't

1:06:29

know anything about it zero. I

1:06:32

didn't before I turned it on knew nothing

1:06:35

I don't even think I knew like, you know that

1:06:38

Bobby kind of Ollie was in it. Mm-hmm You

1:06:40

know, I don't I didn't know anything and I

1:06:42

turned it on and right away like and I'm

1:06:44

noticing this about certain material now like Right

1:06:47

away. There was a sort

1:06:49

of human truth to it that

1:06:52

I knew couldn't be Made

1:06:54

up Like

1:06:57

thank you. That means a lot. Do you know what I

1:06:59

mean? Like I knew that the story Like

1:07:02

even like, you know as a

1:07:04

one-line pitch, you know, it's

1:07:06

like why would you make that movie? Right unless

1:07:09

it was a real story, right? So

1:07:11

right away. I was like, well, there's something real going

1:07:13

on here. I don't know exactly why I just still

1:07:15

didn't know and then I started watching it I was

1:07:18

very taken in by it and then like the Nero's

1:07:20

and nail in it and Bobby's better than he's ever

1:07:22

been And you know and I'm

1:07:24

not saying that lightly he's done a lot of work and I

1:07:26

you know We have an email relationship. I

1:07:28

occasionally know he was sorry. He told me you should

1:07:30

send him an email I did he said Mark Marin

1:07:32

just wrote me. I Was

1:07:34

like, yeah, I'm doing his podcast this week. Yeah Well,

1:07:37

yeah, cuz I said it is some of the best work you've ever

1:07:39

done. Hmm because you know, he wasn't

1:07:42

Constricted or typecast so like, you know

1:07:44

being a comedian like I could be

1:07:47

critical of that You know and

1:07:49

I and I I think I do have notes on

1:07:51

that. It's a little late for them But

1:07:54

but I'd be curious to know. Oh, yeah,

1:07:56

sure Yeah, but but ultimately like the story

1:07:58

nab me grabbed me right away And

1:08:00

the kid was so good. I mean it's

1:08:02

a story about an autistic kid and

1:08:05

the struggles that his parents are going through to

1:08:07

try to do the right thing by him. And

1:08:10

De Niro plays the grandfather. So but

1:08:13

right away I started noticing the direction of it. I was like,

1:08:15

this guy's got a handle on this. Like

1:08:18

because a lot of indie movies you're

1:08:20

like, well, you know what I mean?

1:08:22

It doesn't seem tight. But

1:08:25

it's very tight and all the shots are tight and

1:08:27

you know, you're very attentive to everything that's important. And

1:08:29

I was like, what the fuck is going on? This

1:08:32

is a good movie. Did anyone know this? And wait,

1:08:34

it's not even out yet. But right? Right. Yeah. It

1:08:36

comes out May 31st. Right. So I'm like, you know,

1:08:38

I've never heard about this before. No one's

1:08:40

seen it. But ultimately, like I

1:08:42

just saw it emotionally. It was great

1:08:45

and it was all sort of like

1:08:47

believable. And I don't know

1:08:49

where that all came from. But in terms

1:08:52

of Bobby Cannavale's being a comedian, I thought

1:08:54

he shot that well and I thought he

1:08:56

handled it well. But like in the current

1:08:58

climate of comedy, I know it would be

1:09:00

tough for a comic that does that. Do

1:09:03

you know what I mean? That is that

1:09:05

personal and the jokes require a certain set

1:09:07

to do just because of the nature of

1:09:09

audiences. But I didn't think it was a

1:09:11

liability. Yeah, no, it was one of the

1:09:13

things, you know, it's hard to it's

1:09:16

often done badly in movies. Standup is really

1:09:18

hard to pull over when an actor is

1:09:20

doing standup. And it was Bobby was has

1:09:22

always, you

1:09:24

know, he has a lot of friends who were comedians. Yeah,

1:09:28

he's Bill Burr's buddy and he knows the

1:09:30

world and loves it and really want he was terrified. But he

1:09:32

spent a lot of time and Bill

1:09:35

helped him out with it. Yeah. And then I

1:09:37

thought he did very well with it. You know, and

1:09:39

then also, you know, Tony Spiritakis, who wrote it and

1:09:41

it is based on his life. It's

1:09:43

not a true story, but he has an autistic son

1:09:46

and went through an ordeal when his son was 11

1:09:48

years old and his marriage broke up. And it was

1:09:50

very so he wanted to write a movie about it.

1:09:52

So all the the father son, you know,

1:09:55

stuff is very personal. And a lot of the

1:09:57

stuff in the movie actually is based on things

1:09:59

that happened. to Tony and his life

1:10:01

experience. But in terms of the stand-up,

1:10:04

he wrote all that himself. And we

1:10:07

were always talking, do we want to

1:10:09

get a comedian to come in and punch this up and make

1:10:12

the comedy really feel real? And

1:10:15

I think it was Bill Burr who was working with Bobby. And

1:10:17

he was like, you know what, dude? Fuck

1:10:19

that. Not everybody

1:10:22

has to be funny all the time. And

1:10:24

Bobby's character was a late

1:10:27

night comedy, a late night writer who

1:10:30

had been quite successful in late night and

1:10:32

kind of got bounced from that world and

1:10:34

is now in stand-up. And you know, he's

1:10:37

not, maybe, well, but he's not

1:10:39

like a big comedian. So we were like, Bobby was

1:10:41

like, well, maybe that has to be funny. So

1:10:44

let's just tell a story with his

1:10:46

model artist. Believe me. So, you know, you're like, yeah, it

1:10:48

could be funnier. But we just kind of went with

1:10:50

that, you know, and that was quite

1:10:52

freeing in a way. No, I thought it

1:10:55

was good. Yeah, but that, you know, I

1:10:57

didn't quite put that together because I like

1:10:59

a comic that's, you know, on the edge.

1:11:01

I'm that guy. I've definitely, you know, crapped

1:11:03

out talking about yourself and the fact that

1:11:05

he was struggling with real emotional issues and

1:11:07

that he couldn't land it or,

1:11:09

you know, he, you know, has

1:11:11

a kind of self-sabotage, you

1:11:14

know, mechanism from the way he was brought

1:11:16

up. That's right. So like, you know, the

1:11:19

character was all solid, but like, it is

1:11:21

interesting that, you know, you just

1:11:23

let him like, well, if he's going to tank the set,

1:11:25

fuck it. And I miss that. I miss seeing people tank

1:11:27

on the tank set. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing

1:11:30

was fun to do is I thought, okay, if we, if

1:11:32

we can establish the world of the seller, which

1:11:35

is this comedy club in New York where he plays. And

1:11:39

so we, we, in the beginning of

1:11:42

the movie, just surrounded him with real comics. Yeah.

1:11:44

Emma Willman and Dubb Dabidoff and Dabidoff. Sure. And

1:11:46

Greer Barnes and, you know, Greer, who's hilarious, man.

1:11:48

Been around forever. Yeah. Yeah. And they're just people

1:11:50

that play at the seller. And so, and then

1:11:53

there's this one scene early in the movie where

1:11:55

they're all sitting around the table and they're giving

1:11:57

him shit about how unfunny he is. Yeah. And

1:12:00

And they were super helpful to Bobby as well.

1:12:03

Yeah, and Dove's a good actor. Dove is a

1:12:05

really good actor, yeah, yeah. So

1:12:08

it was just to, I figured like if you

1:12:10

just can create a world that feels authentic, then

1:12:12

you don't need to, I

1:12:16

don't know, that was the, No, it worked out

1:12:18

great, and the kid and the, but what kind

1:12:20

of, in making this

1:12:22

movie, I mean, you have to deal

1:12:24

with the judgment of

1:12:26

the autistic community.

1:12:28

Of, I don't know

1:12:31

what you would call it, the parents, and I

1:12:33

don't know, but I mean, there is a world

1:12:35

where, you know, autism and

1:12:38

neurodigive virgin people, you know, want representation like

1:12:40

in the other group. So how did you

1:12:42

deal with that? Well, the

1:12:44

first thing was we knew we were

1:12:46

not gonna cast a neurotypical kid to

1:12:49

play Ezra. Right. We were gonna

1:12:51

find an autistic young man

1:12:53

to play this role. So that was

1:12:55

number one. And then number two was

1:12:57

involving the autism community deeply

1:12:59

in the project so that we, that

1:13:02

they were a part of it, and then

1:13:04

that they were also, that

1:13:07

they could make sure we were getting

1:13:09

it right and telling the truth. Right. So

1:13:11

we have a number of like consultants who

1:13:13

worked with us. You know,

1:13:15

Bob's son is autistic, Nero's

1:13:18

son, Bill Horberg, our producer, his son

1:13:20

is autistic. So we had autistic parents

1:13:22

like in our inner circle.

1:13:25

Actors playing the smaller parts around the spectrum. We

1:13:28

had crew members on the spectrum.

1:13:30

We had an associate producer who

1:13:32

was kind of like our autistic consultant on set

1:13:34

to work with William, the young actor we found.

1:13:36

Yeah. Amazing. This guy,

1:13:39

Alex Plank, who was really helpful, anything

1:13:41

that felt off in the script,

1:13:43

he'd like question it and we'd discuss it. And

1:13:46

an amazing woman here in LA called Elaine

1:13:49

Hall, who's deeply

1:13:51

an educator in the autism community, was a part of it.

1:13:54

You know, it was just so, you just bring people into

1:13:56

the tent, you know, and they keep you in as soon

1:13:58

as we eye the cut of the moon. We

1:14:00

were inviting parents, caregivers,

1:14:02

teachers, autistic people themselves

1:14:04

to watch the cuts and go, okay, what

1:14:07

do you think? And so

1:14:10

as a result, the community has really embraced it. Yeah.

1:14:12

I thought the kid was great. Yeah. He's

1:14:15

really – he has never acted before and he

1:14:17

was just a natural man. Ezra

1:14:21

has different sensitivities to William, the

1:14:23

actor. William has

1:14:26

sensitivities himself, things that are really

1:14:28

tough for him that actually don't

1:14:30

bother Ezra. Ezra has

1:14:32

a difficulty with eye contact, which

1:14:35

a lot of autistic people – he hates being

1:14:37

touched. It's like physically painful for him to be

1:14:39

touched. William doesn't have those issues. Both

1:14:42

of them are like intensely intelligent, so

1:14:45

they're very similar in that way. Both

1:14:48

of them are super witty and verbal,

1:14:50

so there were things that were very

1:14:53

similar and things that were different. But

1:14:56

he got it. So it was great. So William was able

1:14:58

to kind of adapt his

1:15:00

sensitivity into Ezra's

1:15:03

and kind of made it his own. And

1:15:05

he improvised a lot. He's just a natural

1:15:07

actor, completely unintimidated by anybody. De

1:15:11

Niro, he was just making fun of De

1:15:13

Niro, which Bob loved, of course, where everyone's

1:15:15

so careful around De Niro. Have you worked

1:15:18

with Bob before? No, this is my first

1:15:20

time meeting him. Yeah. And he just liked

1:15:23

the script? Yeah,

1:15:26

he had some criticisms of it to

1:15:28

begin with. He was my first

1:15:31

choice. The

1:15:34

way we sort of put the movie together, we had to

1:15:36

find Max. And Bobby was

1:15:38

someone I just knew Bobby had the contrasting

1:15:40

qualities that we needed, of like this big-hearted

1:15:42

guy who could behave like a total asshole.

1:15:44

And you'd still go, yeah, but I still

1:15:46

kind of love him. And

1:15:49

so when Bobby engaged, decided to

1:15:51

join us, we then went out

1:15:54

to Bob. And they'd

1:15:56

worked together before. They had worked together, and

1:15:58

he really likes Bobby a lot. And

1:16:01

Bob's agent, who's an old friend of mine, was

1:16:03

like, I think Bob might, this might be interesting, so

1:16:05

let me just see. And I thought

1:16:07

it would take, usually it takes like a month to get

1:16:10

a response to someone like that. And three days later, Josh's

1:16:12

agent called me up and said, why didn't you call me?

1:16:14

I was like, what, it's only been three days. He said,

1:16:16

Bob, write the script, he really wants to talk to you.

1:16:19

So he responded to it, but having, I

1:16:21

think honestly, having an autistic

1:16:23

son himself, he was very, his

1:16:26

bullshit meter is always very sharply

1:16:28

tuned, but he wanted to make

1:16:30

sure we got it right. And

1:16:34

so we had several conversations, and

1:16:37

he really pressured Tony

1:16:39

to give a lot more dimension to his

1:16:41

character and to bring levels that Tony had

1:16:43

not yet discovered. So

1:16:45

he was really great in the, you know, the

1:16:47

months before we made the movie. Honestly,

1:16:50

what he said when we first met, he's like, I really

1:16:52

like it, it's a beautiful script, it's a beautiful story, I

1:16:54

can tell that it's personal, just like what you said. He

1:16:56

said, but I don't know that this is a part I have to

1:16:59

play. He said, there's just

1:17:01

not maybe enough for me to

1:17:04

say yes. And I was like, okay, what do

1:17:06

you feel that it's missing? And

1:17:08

he started to talk and I said, well, Bob, I

1:17:11

would do that not just for you, that will make our

1:17:13

script so much better. Your ideas are so helpful. He said,

1:17:15

okay, if you feel that way, see what

1:17:17

Tony wants to do, you know? And

1:17:20

so then Tony immediately was like, wait,

1:17:22

I got them on a phone, and

1:17:24

Tony like literally in 48 hours rewrote

1:17:26

the whole thing. I couldn't believe it,

1:17:28

he's a machine. What were the, okay,

1:17:30

so what it was, was the

1:17:33

original concept of the character,

1:17:37

he was almost like the comic relief. Right.

1:17:40

When Tony first started telling the story about

1:17:42

his autistic son, based on his experience, 10

1:17:45

years ago when he started working on the script, he was

1:17:47

like, the only way an audience is gonna be able to

1:17:49

tolerate this movie is

1:17:52

if it's funny, is if

1:17:54

it's a comedy. We can't like, you

1:17:56

know, autism at that time still was not

1:17:58

nearly as talky. about as it is

1:18:00

now. So

1:18:03

he was leaning really hard on the

1:18:05

comedy and the tone of it and

1:18:07

the character of Stan who Bob plays,

1:18:09

Bobby's father, was just always had a

1:18:11

quip. Tony had imagined Alan Arkin,

1:18:13

so if you think of like grape formative Alan

1:18:15

Arkin and like Little Miss Sunshine, as brilliant as

1:18:17

Alan was in that, you know, like he was

1:18:19

just always hilarious. And so there was all these,

1:18:22

and Bob was like, get rid of all that

1:18:24

shit. He said, first of all, it's not me,

1:18:26

and there's a deeper level to be had here. There's

1:18:29

more depth. Don't get jokey with it. He

1:18:31

really objected to the jokiness and the sort

1:18:34

of lighter tone that he was like, it

1:18:36

was like not really going there, if you

1:18:38

know what I mean. And Tony

1:18:41

just said, you're right. And

1:18:43

he unearthed a whole, there

1:18:45

was, you know, I guess in

1:18:48

those early scenes, the tension

1:18:50

between Bobby and Bob, between

1:18:52

Max and Stan, his father, it

1:18:55

was kind of a cute, banter-y relationship. Sure.

1:18:57

It's a little in there, a little bit.

1:18:59

Which is in there a little bit, but

1:19:02

it's much now they have real conflict and

1:19:04

they really knock heads and they have real

1:19:06

disagreement and Stan, De Niro's character

1:19:08

is not on board with the choices that

1:19:10

Max is making. In the original script, he

1:19:12

was kind of like, ah, you

1:19:14

crazy Max, you know, okay, I'm here for you,

1:19:16

kid kind of thing. And Bob wasn't buying it.

1:19:18

Well, and sort of Bob's point of view was

1:19:22

sort of the conflict within Bob

1:19:24

De Niro's point of view was in the conflict

1:19:26

within the character kind of all he was playing,

1:19:28

which was like, you know, he doesn't even want

1:19:31

to hear a diagnosis. That's right. He's just

1:19:33

like, this kid will be fine. You know,

1:19:35

let him, you know, deal with regular

1:19:37

kids. Yeah. You have that

1:19:39

whole idea. That's right. So that's what you replaced

1:19:41

a comedy with. Yes. And also a

1:19:44

darker past between them. You know, the whole thing

1:19:46

with the mother, mother, I mean,

1:19:48

that was always in there a little bit, but

1:19:51

it was just lighter touch. And the big thing,

1:19:53

you know, Bob has this great scene

1:19:55

toward the end of the movie where he

1:19:58

makes a confession to Max. Yeah,

1:20:00

and he has some he has some you

1:20:02

know an atonement he feels he must make

1:20:05

to his son That was not in the

1:20:07

original. That's what that whole kind

1:20:09

of like arc of Bob's

1:20:11

character where he needs to do

1:20:13

that to make things to you know to honor

1:20:15

his son in that way was not in the

1:20:17

movie and I was always contribution and have that

1:20:20

that that Needy scene was not

1:20:22

it was a very it was a lightweight. It

1:20:24

was in the scene, but it wasn't what it

1:20:26

was. Yeah Yeah, well that gives you the whole

1:20:28

backstory of kind of Ollie's character, and why he's

1:20:30

like the old man And there's connective tissue there.

1:20:32

Yeah, and you said there was maybe abuse in

1:20:35

that relationship Yeah, you know and that all stuff

1:20:37

all came out. I thought I sort of darker.

1:20:39

Yeah I just to it which I which I

1:20:41

really appreciated but but the funny thing is is

1:20:43

that It's not

1:20:45

it's not Dark in

1:20:48

a way that's too heavy because you know

1:20:50

the way the near is playing he's a

1:20:52

character Mm-hmm, you know you got a few

1:20:54

moments as a doorman, and then

1:20:56

you got that dynamic with him and Rose Byrne

1:20:58

Which is you know he's there

1:21:00

may be darkness there, but he's also He

1:21:03

is not he's not funny, but he's he's he's

1:21:05

an entertainer He's ironic and he's in he's he's

1:21:07

funny He has this story because his his character

1:21:09

was a chef before he was absolutely quite a

1:21:12

successful Shepherd he didn't get along with people and

1:21:14

he ultimately had to become a doorman because he was

1:21:16

a single dad and he has this thing where that

1:21:20

Bobby's character teases him about about punching

1:21:23

a customer in the face because he didn't like the

1:21:25

way the steak was cooked Yeah, and then he was

1:21:27

like yeah, the guy returns. That was a perfect big

1:21:30

cooked steak He returns he said but there's not there's

1:21:32

no blood on my plate on this steak. It's overcooked

1:21:34

Yeah, and he says so I punched him in the

1:21:36

face and I said there you go now You got

1:21:38

blood on your plate you happy. Yeah, it's like he's

1:21:41

funny in that way, right? And there's that whole like

1:21:43

that thread with the pan the pan rain. Well rain.

1:21:45

Well, it's me stole from him Yeah, yeah, rain did

1:21:47

a good job. I never Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:21:49

we're all good man. Yeah, great job.

1:21:51

Well, thanks man. Good talking to you.

1:21:53

Yeah likewise. Likewise There

1:22:00

you go. That's a real life in

1:22:02

show business. His film

1:22:04

Ezra opens in theaters tomorrow, May 31st. Hang

1:22:07

out for a minute will you? I've got

1:22:09

some news about our shows next week. So

1:22:13

folks it's a theme week on WTF

1:22:16

next week. My guests on Monday and

1:22:18

Thursday both just wrapped up 12 seasons

1:22:20

of making Curb Your Enthusiasm. On Monday

1:22:23

you'll hear my talk with Susie Essman who I've

1:22:25

known forever. It all happens on stage for the

1:22:28

most part. Me too. That was one of the

1:22:30

reasons why it was so anxiety provoking because this

1:22:32

is how I would write a punch line. I

1:22:34

would have a premise, an idea, not a premise

1:22:36

even. And I would

1:22:38

go on stage and in the it was like

1:22:41

the gun to my head a punch line would

1:22:43

come to me on stage. That's it. That's the

1:22:45

way to do it. That's how I always

1:22:47

wrote. I was never... But then did he hold

1:22:49

on to it though? Yeah. Yeah right. That's

1:22:52

right. But I mean it's

1:22:54

terrifying to work that way and exhilarating

1:22:57

at the same time. And then on

1:22:59

Thursday yes it finally happened and you'll

1:23:01

get to hear it. My talk in the

1:23:03

garage with Larry David. You alright? Yeah. Now

1:23:05

you got it. Yeah you can you've

1:23:08

been on a mic before. Oh yeah. You

1:23:10

want to... I turned my phone off you

1:23:12

have nothing nothing to be concerned about. The phone

1:23:15

is the least of my worries. We

1:23:18

probably just should have run that...

1:23:21

What? What we did. Why are

1:23:23

you even gonna say that to

1:23:25

me? Why would you say that

1:23:27

to me? Well

1:23:29

this could be better. That's Curve

1:23:31

Week with Susie Essman and Larry

1:23:33

David next week on WTF. And

1:23:35

don't forget you can get all

1:23:37

WTF episodes ad-free by signing up

1:23:39

at the link in the episode

1:23:41

description or by going to wtfpod.com

1:23:43

and clicking on WTF plus. And

1:23:45

a reminder before we go this

1:23:48

podcast is hosted by Acast.

1:23:51

Here's some guitar from

1:23:53

the vault. If you can

1:23:55

identify when I did this you're in deep.

1:24:00

Deep. Deep.

1:25:00

Deep. Deep.

1:26:00

Boomer lives!

1:26:07

Monkey! Vafonda!

1:26:15

Yeah, cat angels everywhere, man.

1:26:32

Thank you.