0:30

Hi friends , I'm Beth McMullen and

0:33

I'm Lisa Schmid , and we're the co-hosts

0:35

of Writers with Wrinkles . This is season three

0:37

, episode 15 . And today we're

0:39

talking about imposter syndrome

0:41

. But before we jump into

0:43

that , we wanna talk

0:45

a little bit about our picture

0:48

book journey , the big picture and

0:50

where we're at , and to beautifully

0:53

illustrate exactly where we are

0:55

in our process , lisa has a fun

0:57

story for you , you know what ?

0:58

I have three projects out on sub

1:00

right now , which is which is like a mental

1:03

breakdown right there . In a nutshell

1:05

, I am a volcano of

1:07

rejection waiting to erupt

1:09

.

1:10

No no , no , you are

1:12

. I mean okay For purposes of the picture

1:14

book not to tell people the ending . Yes

1:16

, rejection , but the other stuff , no .

1:18

I refuse to accept it , so I am

1:20

waiting . There's one big one that I'm particularly

1:23

concerned about that I'm waiting on , and

1:25

last night I dreamt that

1:28

I received a rejection via

1:30

email with full color illustrations

1:33

to drive the point home

1:35

of how much they did not want my book .

1:37

My God , I feel like that should be a graphic novel

1:39

right there for adults

1:42

.

1:42

I was sad but at the same time , equally

1:44

impressed . I was like , wow , they really did

1:46

not like my book that they created

1:49

this beautiful illustration I mean , it was full

1:51

colors and my dream . And I was like , wow

1:54

, that's a really pretty rejection . And

1:56

then I immediately texted my agent

1:58

, leslie , and I'm like , just FYI

2:01

, if they do send me a rejection , I

2:03

expect it to come fully illustrated .

2:05

So in the dream , were you thinking

2:08

to yourself Okay

2:10

, wow , this is pretty

2:13

amazing , bummer , they rejected

2:15

me . Were you even able to process the rejection

2:17

? Because they had dazzled you with full

2:19

color illustrations , like you were , like

2:21

they had written you a graphic novel .

2:23

It was gorgeous . And I just remember thinking

2:25

, oh my gosh , this is gorgeous . And I was kind of reading

2:27

through it . And then I got to the

2:30

sad ending and I was like , oh , I

2:32

didn't want it so

2:40

. And then I literally just then I woke up and I was really

2:42

sad . And then , to top it off , I opened my email like minutes , they always

2:44

on my phone . I'm like , oh , I just need to like

2:46

, read something , to , like , you know , get my mind

2:48

off this horrible dream . And

2:50

I woke up and looked at your email and

2:53

we were rejected on the question

2:55

box . So it's like I'm a prophet .

2:58

Okay , so now we're going to use Lisa

3:00

as the magic eight ball Whenever we have a really

3:02

pressing question . We're just going to ask

3:04

her to tell us what's going to happen , because

3:07

, yeah , the timing of the dream followed

3:09

by the rejection was pretty funny . That is our

3:11

second rejection . You know

3:13

we have a long way to go , with many more rejections

3:15

in the future , or not , maybe not but

3:18

thus far we are 0 for

3:20

2 .

3:21

Like with the magic eight balls , you shake

3:23

them and then they kind of it

3:25

kind of rolls around . So

3:27

what I can do is .

3:28

I can just shake my head a bunch . Just shake

3:30

your head around like you're a dog with a toy

3:33

and then tell us what you think . My eyes roll

3:35

back into my head . That means we're getting

3:37

rejected . That

3:39

is an image worth illustrating . Right there , You're

3:42

sitting there in your chair and

3:44

actually , the way that I see you right now , you're all backlit

3:46

by the sun , so you look like some

3:48

sort of deity . So maybe

3:51

this is what your future is . Desperate

3:54

writers come to you . They shake you up

3:56

like you know , like shaking baby

3:58

syndrome for adults and then

4:00

you tell them what you think .

4:02

So , listeners , if you have a sub

4:04

out , give me a call and I'll shake

4:06

my head and see what happens .

4:08

Send us an email , send us your question

4:10

and we'll ask the magic Lisa

4:12

8-ball . Okay

4:15

, this is what rejection , or thoughts of rejection

4:18

, does to your head . It makes you loopy , but

4:20

okay . So that's our picture book update . But it's also

4:23

a good segue into talking

4:25

about imposter syndrome , because

4:27

you are a published author

4:30

. You have a book out , you have another

4:32

book out and this is your third

4:35

book in the same genre that

4:37

you are waiting for a response on , and

4:39

yet you still feel like , oh , hell

4:41

, no , this is never going to happen . Right , and

4:43

that is a perfect definition of

4:45

imposter syndrome . So I looked it up and this

4:48

is what I got as a

4:50

definition . It's the internal

4:52

experience of believing that you are not

4:54

as competent as others perceive you to

4:57

be . In writers , this can manifest as

4:59

doubting your talent , fearing exposure as

5:01

a fraud and attributing success

5:03

to luck . I also

5:05

want to say that , just anecdotally

5:08

, I feel like women are much more

5:10

likely to say , oh , it was just dumb luck

5:12

. Women are much more likely to say

5:14

, oh , it was just dumb luck , rather than say , you

5:16

know what ? I

5:22

worked my ass off and I got a result . So Lisa is experiencing imposter syndrome in real

5:24

time . As we're talking about this , I feel like I live in imposter

5:26

syndrome all the time . I have little moments

5:28

where I come out of it , but it's pretty infrequent .

5:30

I'm right there with you . I feel like I am

5:32

, and I say this all the time and it's horrible . I

5:35

beat myself up . I think I'm

5:37

a half . I don't like

5:39

if anybody , if my editors like this

5:41

is a tight story . I just I love you

5:43

know , you're writing this , that and I'm like whatever

5:45

. Why are you lying to me ?

5:46

You're a liar , like that's what's going on

5:48

in my head .

5:49

Like why are they lying ? Like , why are they

5:51

like , what's wrong with that person

5:54

? It's like I can't accept a compliment

5:56

, I don't believe it , and like

5:58

right now I'm not waiting for a

6:00

book offer or a book deal

6:03

, I'm waiting for the rejection so I can

6:05

get it out of the way and focus on my

6:07

next move .

6:08

And that's what this imposter syndrome

6:10

right there in a nutshell , oh , totally

6:12

In a nutshell , and I feel

6:14

like most writers experience

6:17

it , and very famous writers experience

6:19

it too . You know , just Google it and you

6:21

will find stories of very well-known people saying

6:24

, yeah , I have 25

6:26

bestsellers , but I still think like I'm kind

6:28

of , you know , a fraud . It happens

6:30

just to everybody

6:32

at some point . And instead

6:34

of you know , you're constantly trying

6:36

to talk yourself out of it

6:39

, right ? So what causes

6:41

imposter syndrome ? Well , you know , I mean I'm

6:43

sure there's a million different explanations for what

6:45

causes . It's probably very individual , but

6:47

some of the things

6:49

that are unique to writing is

6:51

the general isolation in which we

6:53

work and the constant self-evaluation

6:56

and the hyper , hyper competitive

6:58

nature of our profession

7:01

Cannot stress that enough

7:03

. I mean , if you look at the numbers

7:06

of people who aspire to be published

7:08

and those who get published , it's

7:10

pretty dramatic . And I think all of those

7:12

things feed into that

7:15

loop of telling yourself

7:17

you stink and there's no way and

7:19

you're alone and your head just kind of runs

7:22

away with you and your

7:24

like self control .

7:26

You know , it's funny because I don't

7:28

when I first started out writing

7:30

, I felt more confident saying I'm a

7:32

writer , Like when I wasn't published , when

7:34

I didn't you know , when I didn't know any better

7:36

, when I didn't you know , I was like I'm a writer , I'm

7:38

a writer , you know . And then all of

7:41

a sudden , like I'm published , and

7:43

now I just feel like I'm a fake and

7:46

that I'm this big phony and

7:48

I don't think , you know , I view

7:50

myself as invisible out in the

7:53

literary world . And it's

7:55

weird about this . Like I feel

7:57

that way all the time . I'm like , you know , I'm over

7:59

here and I'm like waving my hands and I'm like , hello

8:01

, I'm here , and I just feel like

8:03

I don't even deserve a seat at the

8:05

table , which is it's horrible

8:07

, you know , and it's like you want to

8:09

get rid of that feeling .

8:11

It is horrible and

8:14

it doesn't reflect reality . I think the

8:16

gulf between reality and what we perceive

8:19

is really big . Now look at your

8:21

case . You've had multiple successes

8:23

and yet you're still saying to yourself oh

8:26

no , no , no , this is ridiculous , I'm not this

8:28

person . I mean , I feel like when people ask

8:30

me for advice about writing , I always have that moment

8:32

where I'm like wait , excuse me , why are you asking

8:34

? Why are you asking me ? I

8:37

don't know , I don't , and I

8:39

think too . It's also there

8:41

is , and this is definitely for other

8:43

aspects of life as well . There's

8:46

that social media impact that is , you

8:48

know , fairly new in the last , however many years

8:50

, where you are seeing curated , lovely

8:53

versions of people's lives , writers'

8:55

lives and if you're an author , you're following

8:57

a lot of people in the business writers

9:00

, agents , publishers , et cetera . So

9:03

you're getting a lot of input

9:05

from that universe and most

9:08

of it is beautifully curated and lovely . And

9:10

these success stories , one after another

9:12

after another . You're constantly congratulating people

9:15

over and over on awards and bestsellers

9:17

and book deals , and enough

9:20

of that . Despite any success

9:22

you might be having , you start to feel like

9:24

whatever you're doing is paling in comparison

9:26

, and that has a huge

9:29

emotional impact

9:31

. It feeds into this imposter syndrome

9:33

where you're thinking well , these people are . Have

9:35

it really dialed in ? What is wrong with me ?

9:38

You know it's funny that you mentioned that this is like another

9:40

one of the therapy sessions for Lisa . Well

9:44

, you and me both , babe . When I first started

9:46

doing this like I said I was I felt very

9:48

confident in the fact that I was a writer , and

9:50

it wasn't until I was on social

9:53

media , which I do love . You

9:55

know , it's a double edged sword to me . Like I love

9:57

it , like I actually still like Twitter

9:59

, I like engaging with other writers . I

10:02

just did the MG book chat on Monday

10:04

. I love doing that kind of stuff and I love

10:06

celebrating authors and writers

10:08

and people that are , you know , the

10:10

very beginning . Like I love celebrating the whole

10:12

thing . But at the

10:15

same time , I started feeling

10:17

less and less as I started seeing

10:19

, just feeling like I'll never be

10:21

spitting out a book every year .

10:23

Right , like you're not a three book a year person

10:25

.

10:26

No , no . And then when you see people

10:28

doing that or you know you just sometimes

10:30

you just it , just it can really

10:32

chip away at your , at

10:34

your psyche and I . So I can see

10:37

how that affects you when

10:39

you're in it . Also , you're kind of expected to be

10:41

on social media because that's kind of where

10:43

you need to be , but at the same time

10:45

it's diminished . It can be diminishing , and

10:48

so I can see how that's chipped away at me

10:50

.

10:51

I think that is the exact right word . You

10:54

come away feeling diminished rather than feeling

10:56

uplifted , you feel less , and

10:58

that's super hard . I have this

11:01

example outside of writing that

11:03

I sometimes think about . So

11:05

my daughter , who's a junior in high

11:07

school , you know , announced a

11:09

year or so ago that she really wanted

11:12

to play division one lacrosse in college and

11:15

she's a great player . And so , you

11:17

know , we were like , okay , well , we'll , you know , go

11:19

on this journey and see where it ends . There's

11:21

, of course , again super competitive

11:23

, really high achieving , high

11:25

skilled kids all vying for very , very few

11:28

spots . And I

11:30

remember the first big

11:33

elite tournament that I took her

11:35

to , and this was somewhere back East , and

11:38

we pulled into the parking lot with a

11:40

thousand other cars and I got out

11:42

of the car and there were just

11:44

thousands of players

11:46

all vying for

11:48

the exact same tiny

11:51

little pool of offers from

11:53

these high level schools

11:55

. And I literally stopped

11:58

breathing , like I was standing , you know , and she

12:00

was like totally confident

12:02

, whatever , I'm good , getting her stuff out , getting

12:04

ready to go off to the field , and I'm standing there by

12:06

the car like trying to catch my breath

12:09

, because it was a perfect illustration

12:11

of the odds being

12:14

so great that you're ever

12:16

going to get the thing that

12:18

you want , and I

12:20

think about that sometimes when I'm writing

12:23

. I'm like you know , if you had taken all

12:25

of those players and turn them all into

12:27

manuscripts ? That's kind

12:29

of what we're doing , except we don't see

12:31

it . You know it's out there and the

12:33

only place you do see it is social media

12:36

, and on social media you see

12:38

only the success . You don't

12:40

see the people who have been trying

12:42

and trying and trying and have not gotten to where they

12:44

want to go . So I think you need

12:46

to keep in mind when you're on social media

12:49

that first of all , keep

12:51

an awareness of what you feel like

12:53

. So if you feel like your feelings are

12:56

being negatively impacted , you stop or

12:58

you limit or you find some strategy

13:00

to deal with that . But also remember you're

13:02

only getting a tiny , tiny little picture

13:04

of the whole big scene

13:07

. You know you're getting a tiny little bit of

13:09

what is real and

13:11

I think you know try to keep that in mind when

13:13

you're going through . And you know you're congratulating

13:16

your friends and your fellow authors and trying

13:18

to lift people up . Just remember that

13:20

you're not seeing everything . You're seeing a

13:22

very small slice of

13:24

the pie , so to speak .

13:26

It's true , and people curate what they put

13:29

on social media . I mean for the most part

13:31

, especially if you are an author

13:33

that's staying on brand Like I don't you author that's staying

13:35

on brand Like I don't . You know , I stay on brand Like . I don't

13:37

really talk about like , although today

13:40

I did post my failure dream .

13:43

Well , that's not . That's that is having

13:45

to do with writing , like you're

13:47

not going to talk about something that's totally

13:50

outside of the universe of

13:52

publishing and writing and whatnot

13:54

.

13:55

Yeah , but you don't , you don't a lot of times

13:57

, you don't see all the icky parts

13:59

that they're also dealing with .

14:01

No , I mean , for example , I'm

14:03

not gonna put an image of what I look like right

14:05

now . I literally got off my Peloton

14:07

bike 20 minutes ago . My hair is sticking

14:10

straight up in the air , I'm hot and sweaty . I

14:12

would never put that on because , first of all

14:14

, I don't need to share that and , second

14:16

of all , it's not the image that we're all trying

14:18

to project . We're trying to project the

14:21

best part of what we're experiencing

14:23

. So , again , I think

14:25

just remembering that it's all curated

14:28

and selected and , you

14:30

know , enhanced is

14:32

important . Yes , it's like

14:34

. Who said this ? I think this

14:36

was one of our editors that

14:39

we had on recently who said you

14:41

cannot compare your manuscript

14:43

to a finished book

14:46

that's on the shelf because

14:48

that book has gone through multiple

14:50

edits and copy edits and revisions

14:52

and blah , blah , blah . So it's like

14:54

apples to oranges . So comparing yourself to

14:57

somebody who is working really hard to

14:59

project a certain image on social media

15:01

is , you know , of course you're always

15:03

going to come in feeling like less .

15:05

Yeah , and that's another thing . It's just there's

15:07

. You know , if there's somebody that you're

15:10

following that you you're , they're not making

15:12

you feel good like with whatever they're posting

15:14

you're posting , you just mute them . You have to unfollow

15:16

them if you don't want to just mute them , so that you don't

15:18

take a break yeah , because

15:20

there's , you know , there's certain people I'm like , oh

15:22

, you make me feel bad or you were mean

15:25

to me in person , but I'm gonna . We

15:27

both know who that is . Yes , we do , so

15:30

why I just muted

15:32

that person ? Because I'm like you

15:34

make me feel bad . Just remembering how you treated

15:36

me like makes me feel less than

15:38

and so I'm like I will mute you

15:41

.

15:41

And remember you have control

15:44

over it . It's not being

15:46

forced on you . So if you need a break from somebody

15:48

, and maybe that break is only 30 days and

15:50

when you come back you're like I'm good now , but

15:53

you have control , you

15:56

are in the driver's seat of what you're consuming from social media as

15:58

far as writing and publishing et cetera goes

16:00

. So make sure you use that

16:02

power to filter stuff out

16:04

that is getting in your head Because

16:07

, honestly , that all feeds

16:09

into this imposter

16:11

syndrome , and imposter

16:13

syndrome happens at every

16:15

stage . So aspiring

16:17

writers who are taking their first steps , published

16:20

authors obviously , Lisa and I both

16:22

have our own personal experience with

16:24

this . I can't think of anybody I know who's

16:27

never had a moment of self-doubt

16:29

. So it happens , no matter

16:31

where you are in the

16:33

process , beginning , established

16:36

, whatever , you're gonna have the same sort

16:39

of feelings .

16:40

Well , and it's a lot . It's a self-talk

16:42

. You know , if you're , I think , when you're

16:44

starting to feel like , okay

16:46

, I'm not supposed to be here , I'm a bad writer

16:48

, and it's hard to preach

16:51

about this because I , I , this is

16:53

replays in my mind all the

16:55

time , every time I sit down . But if you

16:57

focus on the writing and then when

16:59

you start feeling good about yourself again , you know it's

17:01

like once you , even if it's just like

17:04

, you know a draft , that's like kind of messy

17:06

or whatever . But if you just like , if

17:08

you find yourself having that self-talk

17:10

that's negative , just go right back to the writing

17:12

, because the writing is where your happy place

17:14

is and that's where you're going to find your confidence . And

17:17

that's what I tried to do . I'm having a bad moment

17:19

, like , just remember why you started it . It's

17:21

for the love of writing , and you

17:23

know . Dive right back into it and try not to let

17:25

that self-talk consume you , not to let that self-talk consume

17:28

you .

17:28

Very wise , wise words

17:30

that everybody should heed . You have to find a way

17:33

to shut the noise down . So there

17:35

are strategies to shut

17:37

the noise down , to

17:39

overcome imposter syndrome , to make that little negative voice in your

17:41

head go away , and some

17:44

of those this one I like a lot , which is

17:46

setting realistic , achievable

17:48

goals , so something

17:50

that you can get

17:53

done and check off , and

17:55

those little goals . Achieving

17:57

those little goals , just like Lisa just

17:59

said , helps you build your confidence , and

18:01

the more confidence you have , the less likely

18:03

it is that this noise out there is going

18:06

to bother you . So

18:08

pick something like I'm going to

18:10

write 500 words a day this

18:12

week and then you get to the end of the week and

18:14

you've done it and you're like , huh , I can

18:16

do that . So the next challenge

18:18

is not as scary because

18:20

you've gotten a little bit of confidence

18:22

from achieving that first goal

18:25

.

18:25

Yeah , and I think , also

18:27

looking at different

18:29

aspects of writing and writing community

18:31

, you need to surround yourself with people

18:33

who support you in a constructive way

18:35

. You know both in . You know your personal

18:38

life . If you're sharing that , oh hey , I'm a writer . And

18:40

if you have somebody that's like , oh , you'll never be able

18:42

to do that , or whatever you need to get like , remove

18:44

that person , we don't need those people

18:47

. The other thing is like if you have critique

18:49

partners or people in your writing community . I

18:51

had somebody in the beginning that was not very constructive

18:54

and not helpful and it

18:56

made me feel bad whenever I

18:58

like engaged with them and

19:01

so I just , you know , I kind of disconnected

19:03

myself because they made me feel bad as

19:05

a writer and I wanted to go back to

19:07

my happy place thinking I could

19:09

do this , and that was like I said in the beginning

19:12

. So I think it's really important to find

19:14

a writing group that is constructive

19:17

and helpful , not destructive

19:19

to your mental well-being . Do you know what I

19:22

mean ?

19:22

Yes , I do . And that community

19:24

, that supportive community

19:27

that's going to give you feedback that

19:29

is helpful , that will

19:32

help you write a better produce

19:34

, a better manuscript , rather

19:37

than the feedback that feels

19:39

personal and the

19:41

kind of stuff that you're going to take to heart and

19:44

make you feel bad . It is a very

19:46

fine line and

19:48

when you encounter those people

19:50

who you come away feeling defeated

19:52

or deflated again , it's

19:55

within your control to step away from them

19:57

for a time or change the

19:59

relationship . Where it's not about this could be somebody

20:01

that you dearly love , but they're not a good critique

20:03

partner , so you stop doing the critiquing

20:06

with them . You just keep them as your friend and avoid

20:08

that space . That is not

20:10

beneficial . You have a lot of choices

20:12

, but that supportive community is totally

20:15

, totally key . If

20:17

you feel really frozen

20:20

and this is making it impossible

20:22

for you to work

20:24

on your project and you're dedicated

20:26

to working on your project you can

20:28

seek therapy or coaching . There's

20:31

tons of book coaches out there . They

20:34

are great for helping

20:36

you stay on track , helping you

20:38

set those goals , encouraging you to meet

20:40

those goals , and they're also

20:43

a person in your corner . You know

20:45

, somebody that you're paying to keep you

20:47

in order , and that can

20:49

be , that that in itself can

20:51

be super motivating . It can be the little nudge

20:53

that you need to get through these these

20:55

negative feelings . Yeah , that's

20:57

good advice . I love the idea

20:59

of book coaching . I've done a few

21:02

. I've had a few people that have done it for over

21:04

the years , but I feel like , as

21:06

my parental responsibilities

21:08

change , I'm going to go into that more

21:10

. I'm actually going to take a little class to see what

21:13

it , how I can structure it . So it's most helpful

21:15

to clients because I I

21:17

love that sort of cheerleader

21:19

role and setting those goals

21:22

and helping people figure out like what's the goal

21:24

? That's going to give me that confidence that I can

21:26

get done . That's going to ultimately

21:28

, over a period of time , build me that

21:30

book that I'm desperate to write . So

21:32

you know , that's my , that's my next

21:35

stage .

21:35

I'll give you a reference .

21:37

Okay , you can give me a reference . Yeah

21:40

, okay . So let's

21:42

wrap this up here . Just

21:45

remember , most people

21:47

are suffering from imposter syndrome . You are not

21:49

alone . It does not reflect an actual

21:51

lack of ability or dedication . It is all

21:53

literally in your head . So

21:56

I think that you can

21:58

overcome this . You need

22:00

to figure out the strategy for yourself

22:02

that lets you banish this so

22:04

it doesn't get in the way . This does not mean it's never

22:07

gonna show up . It's gonna show up , but when

22:09

it does show up , you know how to deal with it . So

22:14

that's what we want you to do to think about all the things

22:16

we've just talked about and figure out your strategy for dealing with imposter

22:19

syndrome . All right , that's it for today's episode

22:21

. We hope that helped you iron out

22:23

some of the wrinkles around imposter syndrome

22:25

. If you have questions or thoughts

22:28

about this episode , please email us . We

22:30

love to hear from you and please

22:32

remember to visit our Writers with Wrinkles website

22:34

, which is writerswithwrinklesnet . There's

22:41

lots of stuff over there . There's a blog from past episodes , so if you are trying to find something

22:43

that we talked about , that's a good place to start . You can find out also how to

22:45

support the show by subscribing , following

22:47

and recommending , and we want to thank you for all

22:49

of your great , great reviews and comments

22:52

. We've been getting some really good , fun stuff

22:54

. We like hearing from you , as I already said , and

22:56

join us next week for episode 16

22:59

, where we are talking to

23:02

Matt Eicheldinger , who is an author

23:04

with Andrews McNeil Publishing and a

23:06

TikTok phenomenon , so we're super

23:08

excited to talk to him . So please join us

23:10

for that and until then

23:12

, our lovely listeners , happy reading

23:15

, writing and listening

23:17

. Bye Lisa , bye

23:19

Beth , bye guys .