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answers on Ted business wherever you listen

2:20

to podcasts. Hey

2:25

everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to

2:27

rethinking my podcast on the science of

2:29

what makes us kick with the Ted

2:31

audio collective. I'm an organizational

2:33

psychologist and I'm taking you inside the

2:35

minds of fascinating people to explore new

2:37

thoughts and new ways of thinking. My

2:42

guest today is Meg J. She's

2:45

a clinical psychologist at the University of

2:47

Virginia and the world's leading expert on

2:49

the quarter life crisis. I've

2:51

been doing it 25 years, which I kind

2:54

of can't believe when I say that, but

2:56

when I went to grad school there was

2:58

no such thing as specializing in 20 somethings.

3:01

There was adult development, but nobody really

3:03

knew what that was because you know

3:05

people would say I thought adults were

3:07

already developed, but everything that happens between

3:09

20 and 100 is adult development. But

3:12

I lived in a college town and so

3:14

I ended up working with a lot of

3:16

college students and young adults and then the

3:19

more I learned about the adult development literature,

3:21

I realized this is where all the action

3:23

is. I love this. That makes me

3:25

wonder, did you have an awful 20s? My

3:29

20s were pretty on point in terms

3:31

of all the things that I

3:33

write about been there done that survived it.

3:35

I'm not really writing memoirs. I don't think

3:37

my 20s would be all that interesting, but

3:39

working with 20 somethings for

3:42

25 years has been really interesting and

3:44

I've learned a ton by doing

3:46

it. In my 20s, I was

3:48

laser focused on my goals, which was

3:50

productive, but also led to some tunnel vision. So

3:53

I appreciate Meg's thoughtfulness about that period of

3:55

our youth. I'm a fan of

3:57

her TED talk. My 30 is not the new 20. And

4:00

her new book, The 20-Something Treatment, which

4:02

explores why young adulthood is so challenging

4:05

and how we can improve it. Is

4:10

there something that over the course of this

4:13

conversation you want me to rethink

4:15

or our audience to rethink? Yeah.

4:18

I mean, I think I want to rethink

4:20

how we're talking about and how we're

4:22

approaching young adult mental health. I think

4:25

the two most common responses to young

4:27

adult mental health and the media, there's

4:29

a lot of trivialization in terms of

4:31

young adults are struggling because they're snowflakes

4:34

or privileged or they have helicopter parents

4:36

or they're fragile. And that's

4:38

really not the case for the

4:41

majority of 20-somethings. Or

4:43

in doctor's offices, we have the

4:45

approach of pathologizing young adult struggles

4:47

and young adult life. And

4:50

we pretty quickly move to diagnoses and

4:52

medications. And so I would like to

4:54

rethink both of those into the spectrum

4:56

and talk more about normalizing, looking

4:59

at context over criticism, development

5:01

over diagnosis, and think more

5:03

about skills over pills. What

5:07

do you think both of those extremes are

5:09

getting wrong? On the

5:11

extreme of the trivializing, I think maybe

5:13

people aren't aware of how challenging it

5:16

is to be a 20-something in the

5:18

21st century. Your

5:21

20s are really the most uncertain years of your life. They're

5:23

the only time in your life where you're going to wake

5:25

up in the morning and you're not going to know where

5:27

you're going to live in five years or whether someone's going

5:29

to love you or whether you'll be happy or it can

5:31

pay your bills or who your friends are going to be.

5:34

And that's a lot. The brain doesn't like

5:36

uncertainty. It perceives it as danger. And

5:39

so it's not very fun to

5:41

be a 20-something even though we hear these

5:43

are supposed to be the best years of

5:45

our lives. Really the expectations

5:48

of what our 20s are going to be is

5:50

also something to rethink that 20-something's here. These are

5:52

going to be great years. These are going to

5:54

be the best years of your life. We actually

5:56

know from the data there's a

5:58

J-shaped mental health. curve that dips down from

6:00

childhood through the teen years. I'm sorry to

6:03

say it bottoms out in your 20s, but

6:05

the good news is that it goes upward

6:07

from there and life really gets better as

6:10

it goes across adulthood. So I think

6:13

young adults would be well-served

6:15

if they heard more about the

6:17

actual trajectory of their health and

6:19

happiness across adulthood that life's going

6:21

to get better as they

6:23

get older, not worse. Whereas I think they hear

6:26

your 20s are going to be great and it's

6:28

all downhill from there. That sets them up

6:30

for a pretty rough landing into the 20s

6:32

and then not realizing that that life's actually

6:34

probably going to get better for them. I

6:37

think that without the knowledge of

6:39

that J curve and on

6:41

average dip in your 20s, a lot of

6:43

people might get sort of smacked in the

6:46

face. Right. I'd be unprepared for the harsh

6:48

reality that's about to come. On the

6:51

other hand, there's a part of me that thinks it's

6:54

just an average and are we

6:57

at risk of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy if we

7:00

tell people that their 20s are going to stop?

7:02

You have a good point because I do talk

7:04

in the book about the necebo effect

7:06

and the power of negative expectations, but

7:08

I think it's probably all good news

7:12

and that whatever goes on in your 20s,

7:14

it's probably going to be better from there.

7:16

I've actually never met any of the people

7:18

who say, by 20s we're just a breeze.

7:21

It doesn't mean you're personally going to have

7:23

mental health struggles, but it is a big

7:25

shift to move from the sort of

7:27

structured, predictable, small world

7:30

problems of school where you can sort of

7:32

plan everything out and know how you're doing

7:34

and get an A or get a B

7:36

to the large world problems of how

7:38

do you choose where to live and who to love and

7:40

how to love and who your friends are and who to

7:43

be. If I had to pick

7:45

one word that I hear from 20-somethings

7:47

more than any other word in terms

7:49

of where the struggles come from, it's

7:51

uncertainty. And so I think

7:53

just the uncertainty involved in how

7:56

do you make those big life

7:58

decisions, how do you take control

8:00

of your life? What is my

8:02

future going to be and how do I make that,

8:04

you know, turn out in a way that I would

8:06

feel good about? That's a lot. I

8:08

want to talk about how to navigate

8:11

that uncertainty and what you

8:13

do about it if you're in your 20s. So

8:16

you were called recently by the New

8:18

York Times, the patron saint of striving

8:20

youth. People look

8:22

to their patron saints for cold

8:24

hard facts, also for hope. So

8:28

tell us what determines the quality of your

8:30

experience in your 20s. I

8:32

think that's the only context in which I've

8:35

ever been called a saint. So I'll

8:37

take it. I was a

8:39

20 something in the 90s and

8:41

I think a lot of what 20 somethings

8:43

face today, it's new to them and they

8:45

think, oh, this is the hardest it's ever

8:47

been. This is the most uncertain life has

8:49

ever been. It's actually been this way for

8:52

a while. I would say it's been becoming

8:54

sort of more and more challenging, more and

8:56

more uncertain. The adult milestones are getting

8:58

pushed out further and further, which

9:00

leaves people somewhat adrift for

9:02

a while. That's been happening. I

9:04

can speak to the average

9:06

curve that the 20s were difficult, but my

9:08

life has been better with every decade. And

9:10

I wouldn't be out there telling

9:12

people that they can hope for that and that

9:15

they might even expect that if I didn't really

9:17

believe that and had lived that myself. Okay,

9:20

good. So for anyone who doesn't want

9:22

to just suffer throughout their 20s and

9:24

wants it to get better sooner, what's

9:27

your advice? Yeah, so people

9:29

they're dealing with, I want to know the

9:32

answers. I want to know the future. I

9:34

want to know all that. And you really

9:36

can't have that in your 20s. But what

9:38

you can do is focus

9:40

on yourself and gain your own competencies.

9:42

And that's where I talk about skills

9:45

over pills is not to knock medication,

9:47

but to say let's focus on skill

9:49

building, the more sure you feel of

9:51

yourself at work or

9:53

in friendship or in love

9:56

or in your own coping,

9:58

the better you'll be able to

10:00

manage your own 20s and have

10:02

life get better sooner rather than

10:04

later. So it's really about

10:06

looking for that certainty and building that

10:08

certainty on the inside because

10:11

it takes a while to really see it

10:13

come to fruition on the outside. Do

10:16

you think certainty should actually be the goal? And

10:19

I'm asking this because I think the answer is no.

10:21

Right. And feel free to push

10:23

back if you disagree. Oh no, yeah, no, no, yeah.

10:26

I think about the classic research

10:29

by Antonovski on sense

10:31

of coherence that what

10:34

we're really looking for is not so

10:36

much certainty as clarity. I

10:39

feel like certainty is a myth. You're never going to know

10:41

how the career you chose is going to play out

10:43

when you have to make your commitment. You're

10:46

never going to know when you decide

10:48

who to marry or who to choose as

10:50

a partner, what's going to

10:52

unfold in the coming decades. But you can

10:55

get clearer about what the possible paths might

10:57

look like. And that can lead

10:59

you toward a sense of coherence that there is a

11:02

strong connection between your

11:04

values and your aspirations and your daily

11:06

choices. And I guess there's a part

11:08

of me that thinks it's more palatable to look for

11:11

clarity and coherence than it is to search for certainty.

11:13

Right. It's never coming. I mean,

11:15

I think really more of what people experience

11:17

rather than certainty is they start to feel

11:19

more settled. I've made some life

11:21

decisions and they feel good to me and I

11:23

wake up in the morning and I feel like,

11:26

OK, this is the person I love. This is

11:28

the city I've chosen. This is the career where

11:30

I find meaning these are the kids I'm going

11:32

to have. And you know, those things take time.

11:34

That coherence or clarity, if that's what you want

11:36

to call it, that takes time to develop. So

11:38

people aren't going to have it in a year

11:41

or in two years in their 20s. But

11:43

that's what you work toward is

11:46

that feeling of these were my choices. I've made them.

11:48

They feel good to me. I

11:50

wake up in the morning and I know that about

11:52

my life. And of course, I don't know. No one

11:54

ever knows what might happen tomorrow. I

11:57

remember taking my first social

11:59

psychology class. with Ellen Langer and her

12:01

saying, with so many important

12:03

life choices, what you should

12:06

think about is not making the right decision, but

12:08

rather making the decision right. That's

12:10

a great way to put it. And what I took away

12:12

from that was, if a decision is hard, it's

12:15

because there might not be a

12:17

correct answer. Right. And there are

12:19

multiple good options, or there are

12:21

trade-offs, and there are real undesirables

12:24

associated with every option. And

12:26

that means that instead of agonizing

12:28

over making the correct choice, you

12:31

should make a choice and then invest your energy

12:33

in trying to make it work out well. And

12:35

it sounds like you're saying that's a lot of what

12:38

people figure out over the course of their 20s. Absolutely.

12:41

There aren't right decisions. I don't

12:43

care how much data you have.

12:46

You're never going to have an algorithm. You're never

12:48

going to have a formula. But that also means

12:50

there's no wrong answer. There's just your answer. So

12:52

you have to do your

12:54

best to, like you said, make the

12:56

decision right. And then

12:58

realize you still have some say

13:00

in how that turns out. It's

13:03

so interesting to hear you say, there's no

13:05

right answer, but there's also no wrong answer.

13:08

Because I had the opposite reaction, which

13:10

is, when it comes to work

13:12

or love, the big choice is, there's

13:15

no right answer, but there are definite wrong

13:17

answers. There's a person you should definitely not

13:19

marry. There is a job

13:21

that's going to make you utterly miserable.

13:23

And screening those out

13:26

is actually a critical part of decision making.

13:28

There may be a wrong answer for you, but

13:31

you're not going to be able to put

13:33

it into a computer and have it shoot

13:35

out the wrong answer. The best you can

13:37

do is figure out, what's the right answer

13:39

for me? I think

13:41

you're a correction, societally, for

13:44

the obsession with generational differences

13:47

and the underappreciation of life

13:49

stages, which, in my

13:51

read of the research, are far more important than

13:54

What generation you belong to. Absolutely,

13:56

Yeah., I Read the work on

13:58

entitlement and narcissism. Them, for example,

14:01

is pretty clear that. Twenty.

14:03

Two year olds of every generation, right are

14:06

more likely to be narcissistic then thirty two

14:08

year olds And forty two year olds, right?

14:10

And that. Kind of

14:12

Self Focus is more a problem

14:15

is of Aids and life experience

14:17

and development than it is Millennials.

14:20

Are sin z. Yeah, Millennial

14:22

as fitness? Exactly exactly. And I think

14:24

this is. this is a premise that.

14:26

Probably. As at the very heart of the lot of the

14:28

work that you do and I just wondered if you to talk

14:31

to me a little bit about. Sort. Of the

14:33

generation vs. Life stayed space to six

14:35

and. I think this is something really

14:37

important to read sank and to to

14:39

talk to people about because we hear

14:41

it again and again. What is wrong

14:43

with Millennials? What is wrong with in

14:45

Obs Nz And it's It's actually the

14:47

point that I was making earlier which

14:50

is it's tough to be a twenty

14:52

something it it has been for quite

14:54

some time and it will continue to

14:56

be that has more to do with

14:58

developmental stage than general sense. And actually

15:00

when I wrote my first book which

15:02

was the defining decade, people would say

15:04

you're a Millennial expert. And I said

15:06

no, no, I'm not a millennial expert.

15:08

I'm a twenty something expert. I am

15:11

a developmental clinical psychologist or focus on

15:13

twenty somethings and millennials. There's gonna be

15:15

a generation coming right behind them and

15:17

they're not going to be that different.

15:20

They're gonna go through the same stuff

15:22

and that's where my work as. But

15:24

you know it kinda leads to these

15:26

headlines which are just the the most

15:29

unhappy generation and history. Because if we

15:31

look at it developmentally, twenty somethings on

15:33

average or less happy than thirty somethings.

15:35

And forty somethings and fifteen something's It's

15:38

a developmental saying. It's because it's a

15:40

very challenging decade. It's not that this

15:42

generous and is worse off or doomed.

15:44

I don't think it's helpful for young

15:46

adults to hear that they've graduated into

15:48

a mental health recession and the never

15:50

been this bad before and now this

15:52

is what you're stuck with that's honestly

15:55

just doesn't match the data. The twenties

15:57

and then of that have a mental

15:59

health struggle. Current Level Twenty five years

16:01

I've been doing this and they're going

16:03

to continue to be because it's the

16:06

nature of the challenges and young adults

16:08

try to meet those sounds with skills.

16:10

That they're only just developing. It's

16:12

not about them being snowflakes

16:14

or narcissistic. I think that's

16:16

a really important thing we

16:18

need to rethink. A.

16:21

Strongly agree and it's of us the a

16:23

lot with my students. The vast majority of

16:25

them are in their twenties, both in your

16:27

undergrad and grad students, and I see so

16:29

many of them in a hurry to try

16:32

to resolve these questions sang globe should I

16:34

get married now. So. That of

16:36

got that worked out right. I want

16:38

to make my twenty year career plans

16:40

for know exactly how to get from

16:42

here to that point of stability that

16:44

I'm striving for and to the level

16:46

of right, status and purpose that I'm

16:48

seeking. Yep, and I find myself pushing

16:51

them in those conversations to to delay

16:53

a little bit and say you don't

16:55

want to plunge into a decision you

16:57

might come to regret. You wanna do

16:59

you know some exploration of you know

17:01

of possibilities and your own values before?

17:03

It's a before you pre commit rice

17:05

you. Do this professionally. Talk to me

17:07

about what these conversations are like

17:09

in your practice and how you

17:11

guide people through their twenties. The.

17:14

More uncertain the twenties of the com

17:16

the more people comment saying any the

17:18

locked us down. I wanna get this

17:20

off. My play on want us to

17:22

be done and so part of my

17:24

hopefully not setting them up at night

17:26

at negative expectations that normalizing. Thanks This

17:28

is. these are long form projects. This

17:30

takes a while. You're not doing anything

17:32

wrong. It's going to take that the

17:34

percentage twenty somethings feel like they have

17:36

some sense of purpose by thirty am.

17:38

but us maybe probably not something you

17:40

sound at twenty one or twenty two.

17:42

A lot of the conversations. Are about

17:45

to normalizing. This is uncertain. This is

17:47

normal and it's going to gone for

17:49

a while. Actually had somebody emailed me

17:51

a few weeks ago and they said

17:53

i'm positive I want get married and

17:55

I'm positive that wanna have kids as

17:57

as a young male by the way.

18:00

And he said i want this to happen

18:02

as soon as possible So I replied and

18:04

I said oh, that's all that. You know

18:07

what you're looking for, but just from a

18:09

time and and space continuum point of view.

18:11

finding a partner knowing their that someone you

18:13

want to make a life commitment to and

18:16

and having three kids. Is

18:18

easily. A five or ten year project

18:20

even though you know he won it. It's

18:22

not something that you're going to have for

18:25

quite some time, and you're gonna have to

18:27

be comfortable with that uncertainty of not knowing

18:29

how that's gonna look for a good while.

18:32

This. Sounds like of a broader

18:34

version of was Fed Psychologists are talking

18:36

about when they talk about a sampling

18:38

period where athletes try out a bunch

18:41

of different sports before they commit to

18:43

the one that they wanna become great.

18:45

And it seems like part of what's

18:48

challenging about being in your twenties is

18:50

the sampling period is really loves. Her.

18:53

It's also really wide. right? Now

18:55

so we know that young adults have

18:57

on average nine jobs by the age

18:59

of thirty five. That's a lot of

19:01

sampling that goes on. I am sir.

19:03

I had nine different jobs by thirty

19:05

five. Am I to had none all

19:07

at one time at one point in

19:09

Central Nice. I do a lot of

19:12

normalizing a lot of education, a lot

19:14

of just correcting what twenty something sync

19:16

with what the data is or what

19:18

what the facts are. most college students

19:20

and up and careers or jobs they

19:22

didn't know about when they were in

19:24

college. Or that didn't even exist. With.

19:27

An example of it's kind of a

19:29

twenties eric. Had that

19:31

you say. wow. This was

19:33

really satisfying. really successful. I

19:35

would love to help more

19:37

twenty somethings follow in his

19:39

footsteps. many years ago

19:41

now i had a young adult clients who

19:43

was trying to kind of maker way as

19:46

a reporter like on and front front of

19:48

the camera reporter is she was having a

19:50

lot of stress and anxiety around there so

19:52

it's really unclear as that because this is

19:54

new and and you know it in stressful

19:57

the be in front of the camera see

19:59

kind of Kept trying that out

20:01

in the smaller markets wasn't sure if

20:03

she could you know sort of handle that

20:05

stress Did have some success

20:07

with it moved to a larger market and

20:09

then I didn't hear from her from quite

20:12

some time after But not

20:14

too many years later. I was on good

20:16

morning America I think and I came

20:18

walking out of the studio after the show was

20:20

over and this young woman comes

20:22

out of the booth from Behind and said

20:25

oh dr. J It's so and so and

20:27

we went and had coffee the next day

20:29

I think and she told me about how

20:31

she had learned through her own experiences at

20:34

work that she was in the right field

20:36

She wanted to be in media and loved being

20:38

in news But being the behind the

20:40

camera was really better for her and now she was

20:42

a producer and she loved it and was doing great

20:45

So when I talked to young adult

20:47

clients about that they get it They

20:49

understand you've got to go have some

20:51

experiences to know which one is going

20:53

to be right for me This calls back

20:55

to the defining decade in some interesting ways.

20:57

Yeah, you shared a stat To

21:00

the effect of 80% of our defining moments Happens

21:04

by the time we turn 35, right? and

21:08

I think what you're describing in this

21:11

kind of career arc is Sort

21:13

of taking charge of some of those defining

21:15

moments. Can I quote you to

21:17

you? You can't I love it Please do

21:19

continue. Okay, one of my favorite Meg J

21:22

lines is Forget

21:24

about having an identity crisis and get

21:26

some identity capital Do

21:28

something that adds value to who you are

21:30

do something that's an investment in who you

21:32

might want to be next. Yes What

21:35

does it mean to build identity capital instead

21:37

of wallowing in an identity crisis? Identity

21:40

capital is not my concept James Cody

21:42

out of Canada his concept But I

21:44

think there's this sense that your 20s

21:46

are gonna have this Crisis and you're

21:48

gonna be lost and you're gonna wander

21:50

the desert and have an epiphany and

21:52

then you'll know forever who you're gonna

21:54

Be and it's just not the way

21:57

that it works. So a better use

21:59

of your time would be to

22:01

do what's called Earn Identity Capital

22:03

and that really just means that

22:05

the time is your most valuable

22:07

asset as a twenty-something. That's something

22:10

you have a lot more more

22:12

of than I do. So it's

22:14

a matter of using that time

22:16

wisely, choosing jobs or relationships or

22:18

life experiences or friendships that

22:20

you're going to learn from and grow from and we

22:22

know that the learning curve in

22:25

your 20s maps onto your earning curve in

22:27

your 30s and beyond. And

22:29

when I say you're earning curve, I'm

22:31

thinking of a lot more than just money.

22:33

That all the learning that

22:35

you do in your 20s really

22:37

helps you have a life of

22:39

value in your 30s and

22:42

40s and 50s. I

22:48

want to go to a lightning round now. What's the

22:51

worst advice you hear given to 20s and things?

22:54

Don't worry. You have all the time in

22:56

the world. It'll all work out one day.

22:59

Oh, brutal. Is there a piece of advice you

23:01

want to replace that with? Life

23:04

does get, on average, get better as you go,

23:06

but that's because of what you do. That's

23:09

because of the gains that you

23:11

make in work and friendship and

23:14

health and love and kids

23:16

and financial stability that you have

23:19

control over those pieces. But it's not just going to

23:21

happen because you get older. What's

23:23

the biggest mistake you made in your 20s? The

23:26

biggest mistake I made in my

23:28

20s was not taking my relationship

23:30

seriously soon enough. Spoiler alert,

23:32

I'm happily married and I have two children, so

23:34

I survived. But I

23:37

think that I felt

23:40

like I couldn't sort

23:42

of own what kind of relationship I wanted.

23:44

I kept hearing everybody was like, oh, people

23:46

don't do that until their 30s anymore. I

23:49

felt like I needed to finish graduate school

23:51

before I could really dig in on that.

23:54

And, you know, as I said, things worked out for me,

23:57

but I was in a bit of a crunch in my

23:59

30s. I think in a

24:01

five-year period I got engaged. I got married.

24:03

I had two kids. I finished my PhD.

24:05

I finished my residency. I got licensed. I

24:07

set up shop in Virginia and moved back

24:10

and forth three times. That

24:12

was a lot. It didn't really need to

24:14

be like that. I'm not talking about rushing

24:16

out and marrying somebody that, you know, you're

24:18

not sure about at 24, so

24:21

you don't wait too long. I'm just I think

24:23

I could have given myself a little bit more

24:25

space there. What do you think I was like

24:27

in my 20s? I

24:29

would imagine you sort of had it all worked

24:31

out and you did all the steps and you

24:33

know one after another and I would not assume

24:35

it was easy because I don't usually

24:38

meet people for whom it is. But I

24:40

would imagine that it was all very sort of

24:43

neat and linear. But I think I'm imagining

24:45

that because that's a misconception that we have

24:47

about successful people. They must have had it

24:49

all figured out from day one and they

24:51

never were lost or struggled.

24:54

I think my path was definitely more linear than a

24:56

lot of people I know. But it

24:58

had plenty of curbs, lots of

25:01

backtracking and the squiggly

25:03

line is definitely a better depiction.

25:05

I feel like in

25:07

some ways being 19 and 20 were

25:09

a lot harder than later. I

25:12

felt like freshman year of college was like

25:14

my favorite year ever. I loved it. I

25:16

had all this freedom. I had

25:19

all these new friends and fascinating classes and

25:21

amazing professors. And then sophomore year started and

25:24

all of a sudden I have all these

25:26

choices I'm supposed to make. I have no

25:28

idea what I want to

25:30

do career wise. Right. Okay,

25:32

back to the lightning round. As

25:35

a clinical psychologist, if

25:37

you're struggling with mental

25:39

health but not in

25:42

a severe way, how do you

25:44

approach that with your therapist? As

25:46

a therapist, I call myself a pusher, not

25:48

a puller. I tend to push my clients

25:50

out into their life experiences of let's get

25:53

you some new friends. Let's try a different

25:55

relationship. Let's get you a better job. I

25:57

guess I would want to know from a

25:59

therapist. what growth experiences do you think that

26:01

I need? Because I think

26:04

that's what 20-somethings need more than

26:06

therapy. If your therapist is

26:08

the most important person in your life, they're

26:11

probably not doing their job. They should be

26:13

helping you have friends and partners and bosses

26:15

and better connections with family.

26:17

So I would be asking a therapist, what

26:19

do I need to be doing outside of

26:22

this room? I love the

26:24

question, what growth experiences do I need?

26:26

Love it. It's

26:28

a bit of a reorientation, because I think

26:30

so much of the conversations

26:32

that happen in therapy are, how

26:35

do I feel better? Most mental

26:37

health struggles that 20-somethings have are

26:39

what people in the

26:41

biz call situational. They're because

26:44

of something like, I

26:46

don't have a job or I don't have a job

26:48

that I like, or I don't have close friends. My

26:51

first question to a new client is in

26:53

my head and to them, why now? Why

26:55

are you struggling right now? What has happened

26:57

in your life in the last

26:59

month or the last year that's got you

27:01

where you are? And let's work on fixing

27:03

that, not just talking

27:06

about what happened 10 or 15

27:08

years ago, although that can

27:10

be important too. But I

27:13

also do a lot of here and

27:15

now work with 20-somethings to figure out

27:17

what's gone wrong that brought you here

27:19

right now and what can we do

27:21

to improve that? Because for the vast

27:24

majority of anxiety, depression, substance use, suicidality,

27:26

you name it in the 20s, most

27:29

of it is temporary, it's situational,

27:31

and it gets better when people's

27:34

situations improve or when their coping

27:36

skills improve. What

27:38

is something about being in your

27:40

20s that you've rethought lately? Many

27:43

people ask me what's changed for

27:45

them in 25 years. And

27:47

without a doubt, the biggest difference between

27:50

my 20-something years and the current 20-something

27:52

years is social media. And

27:54

technology, and I wouldn't say that's changed

27:56

human development. All those things that we

27:59

do is human. humans, we can just

28:01

do exponentially

28:03

more on social media or with our

28:05

phones. So I think that's a challenge

28:07

that I didn't live with

28:10

in my 20s, thank goodness, and that

28:12

I have really learned a lot about

28:14

the impact that it's having on young

28:16

adults now. Is

28:20

there something you used to believe about

28:22

being a young adult that you no longer believe? I

28:25

really do embrace that. Choose your own

28:28

adventure path that it takes all types

28:30

of people to make up the world

28:32

and there's not one path to success.

28:35

And I think sometimes maybe people read

28:37

my work and think that I think that

28:39

people need office jobs and they need to

28:42

make a lot of money or they need to

28:44

have a partner or have kids. I

28:46

don't think any of those things are necessarily true for

28:48

you to have a good life or the life that

28:50

you want. I think it's just

28:52

really important that people try to figure out

28:55

what fits who they are and their

28:58

values and their strengths and

29:01

their weaknesses. The last

29:03

topic I wanted to raise with you, which

29:05

is parents of 20-somethings.

29:08

I'm not one yet. I will be in a

29:11

few years. Me neither, thank goodness.

29:13

Yeah, things to look forward to. But

29:16

I have to tell you, I've had a

29:18

lot of interactions with 20-somethings and my general

29:20

sense is that parents are having

29:22

a very hard time. I

29:25

have a bunch of maybe specific observations about

29:27

what that looks like, but

29:29

this is just anecdote. You've looked at

29:31

the data and you've also studied,

29:34

I think, probably not

29:36

only the symptoms, but

29:38

the root causes in a lot of depth. What

29:41

do you think parents of 20-somethings are getting

29:43

wrong and can you help them do better?

29:46

Yeah, I think not just parents,

29:48

but culturally, one

29:50

thing we're getting wrong is

29:53

that we are panicking and

29:55

catastrophizing young adult mental

29:57

health struggles. It's really the

29:59

same process. That that the twenty somethings are doing,

30:01

they see something uncertain and and and difficult and

30:03

they could house or bars and see the worst

30:06

case scenario and thing. Oh my God. this is

30:08

never going to get better. And I think that.

30:10

Parents of twenty somethings are

30:12

may be unprepared or their

30:14

twenties were different, are easier

30:16

and so they panic and

30:19

catastrophizing and pathologize and they

30:21

turned to people like me

30:23

and they wanna solution tomorrow.

30:25

I think that that's a

30:27

disservice to young adult. Just

30:29

because you're struggling doesn't mean

30:31

there's something wrong with you.

30:33

Doesn't mean you have a

30:35

disorder, doesn't mean you need

30:37

medication that's not helping Twenty

30:39

somethings to panic and pathologize.

30:41

Their struggles. So in addition

30:44

to pathologizing, I am stunned

30:46

by the number of parents

30:48

who are controlling and micromanaging.

30:51

Pursuing. Comes in and says i'm

30:53

really excited about three or four

30:56

possible career paths and so parents

30:58

are telling me I cannot do

31:00

any of them. Their forbidding

31:02

me from doing them. I listen to this

31:04

and I think. Wire parents

31:07

pressuring kids to choose a career based

31:09

on their own priorities instead of. Helping.

31:12

Their kids think about. Their. Priorities.

31:14

I gave a talk somewhere recently and

31:17

and someone was. You. Know as

31:19

well as a therapist your ear a

31:21

pleasure Not a polar but as a

31:23

parent. What? Are

31:25

we do the a pusher not a

31:27

polar that you know you wanna get

31:29

your kids out into their lives, having

31:31

their experiences, learning their own lessons, having

31:34

their own data points about what are

31:36

my values. And preferences and strength.

31:38

Rather than trying a you know, pull

31:40

people and clothes and figuring it out

31:43

for kids because you're not them. I

31:45

also see students, clients who are you

31:47

majoring in computer science because their parents

31:49

said it would be great and they

31:51

hate it. And it's my job to

31:53

say. Well, I mean, there's a data

31:55

point for you. You hate it. What?

31:58

Would you say to parents who. Having

32:00

a hard time landing in that place.

32:03

Is. Tough as it is to see that

32:05

you know some lessons are going to be

32:07

learned the hard ways. That's just a part

32:09

of why is that we've all I've learned

32:11

by since. the hard way, I'm sure you

32:13

have to Adam and some of them or

32:15

my most valuable lessons and so we can't

32:17

really protect our tents for now or know

32:20

really what's the best life for them. That's

32:22

something that they have to learn. Through experience

32:24

protecting our kids speaks to the

32:26

the other category of problem parrot

32:28

behaviors with adult children that I

32:30

I see a lot of which

32:32

is I think there's a version

32:34

of it that sometimes called snowplow

32:36

Parents A They're failing to realize

32:38

that their job is to prayer

32:40

prepare their kids for the path

32:42

not clear the past for their

32:44

kids right? And some of the

32:46

legs so seen parents go to

32:49

are. Deeply. Disconcerting.

32:51

So I have gotten

32:53

emails from parents. Lobbying

32:56

on behalf of their children that

32:58

I should let them into my

33:00

class. Is it an anonymous double

33:02

blind selection process for sissies? I

33:05

actually got an email from a parent

33:07

recent recently saying my twenty eight year

33:09

olds is struggling from a career perspective.

33:12

I've read some your book said listen

33:14

your podcast Will you please talk to

33:16

him. First. Of all. I

33:19

have no interest in having a conversation

33:21

if a kid can't take the initiative

33:23

branch out personally threat but also why

33:25

are you not as a parent saying

33:27

D C is. Maybe you should have

33:29

the initiative and the independents to duty

33:31

out. return your over what appears thinking

33:33

and can you help me He said

33:35

you have been a. I

33:37

can help them am that? that's. Like

33:39

writing books is about because, you

33:42

know? Unfortunately, Therapy is not a villain

33:44

mary scale of a professor. Good therapy and

33:46

not affordable or accessible for most people's I

33:48

write books but I do get a lot

33:51

of the emails from parents saying my kid

33:53

is struggling to and you helped them feel

33:55

twenty something has to be entrusted and thus

33:57

not just you whether the whether they're saying.

34:00

Me or someone else are making a change.

34:02

Their really the ones who need to. Want

34:04

us there That psychology do us?

34:07

How many psychologists does it take to

34:09

change a lightbulb and they answer is

34:11

just one, but the light bulb has

34:14

to want to change. I currently have

34:16

some clients who are really struggling to

34:18

adapt to First Jobs and sort of

34:21

First Apartments because up until now their

34:23

parents had done most of that for

34:25

them. So they don't know how to

34:28

go to the grocery store, they don't

34:30

know how to cook. They had a

34:32

lot of sort of accommodating and scaffolding

34:35

which maybe they needed for a time.

34:37

But it probably should have been. Step back a bit

34:39

and now. It's to sort of disappeared

34:41

because there are tutors and accommodations.

34:43

At work and so there you know

34:46

haven't are. Pretty. Steep and painful learning

34:48

curve. Yeah. Last time I

34:50

checked scaffolding is supposed to be

34:52

removed. said that the building consent

34:54

or process because it's My jaw

34:57

drops when. When.

34:59

A parrot confessed to me

35:01

recently that she was calling

35:03

her daughter to make sure

35:06

she woke up for work.

35:09

So I would be curious about why

35:11

she felt she needed to do that

35:13

and how the twenty something. Could start

35:15

to learn to do that on her

35:17

own. Curiosity is that is not the

35:19

first reaction against. As well as

35:22

say now curiosity is really

35:24

my first reaction to. Almost.

35:26

Everything that a client says to me it's

35:28

a good place to start of low, what

35:31

line our, where did that come from or

35:33

when did that start or what is like

35:35

anybody that. Wanted to

35:37

remove this entire mental model of

35:39

parenting and replace it with the

35:41

different would the there's a major

35:43

value completely overlooked which is you

35:45

need to teach your kids to

35:48

be able to pursue their goals

35:50

themselves. Rape. In terms of

35:52

mental health, that is what actually

35:54

makes people happier and healthier for

35:56

in their twenties. It's that feeling

35:59

of competent. Confidence and

36:01

having your successes and having your wins

36:03

at work or love and friendship or

36:05

life That's actually what's going to make

36:07

people feel better. Well. This

36:09

is a big part of what you

36:12

are you do for us made it

36:14

is you enable all of us to

36:16

feel a little bit more confident in

36:18

the the goals that were pursuing, particularly

36:20

as we go to this transition from

36:22

a being dependent to being independent. And

36:25

I'm grateful for your work and for

36:27

your insight. Thank. You. The

36:29

pleasure. I

36:34

see take away as that although we can

36:36

control everything that happens in our twenties, we

36:38

can do a better job managing expectations about

36:41

them. He should anticipate a decade of bliss.

36:43

We should aim for a decade of grub.

36:51

Rethinking is hosted by me Adam Crash

36:54

the show is part of it had

36:56

audio collective and this episode was produced

36:58

in mixed by cause they center or

37:01

producers are Henna Kingsley mom and Asia

37:03

Simpson or editor is our Hunter Salazar.

37:05

Fact Checkers Paul Durbin original music by

37:07

Hunters Do and Out and Late and

37:10

Brand or team includes Eliza Smith Sake

37:12

of Winning, Smile, Atoms in the Southwest

37:14

Than Been Saying Julia Dickerson and Will

37:17

Be Pennington Rodgers. Assists

37:26

I think I would tell anyone not to

37:28

marry a psychopath. Sarah.

37:31

Yeah of people don't need to come to me

37:33

for that. they don't They're not usually coming in

37:35

and saying i can't decide if I should marry

37:37

a psychopath. Unless they don't realize their sake

37:40

of our right for say and. That's tough

37:42

to tough to be sure.