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1:00

Sounds, music radio podcasts.

1:30

And singing while on your period. What happens

1:32

to our voice when hormone changes take place?

1:35

Opera singer Sophie Bevan explains how

1:37

her voice has been affected. I

1:40

was standing in front of an audience feeling

1:42

terrified, feeling as though I had

1:45

no control. What was going

1:47

to come out of my mouth? Was everyone there going

1:49

to think, Sophie can't sing anymore? The journalist

1:51

and broadcaster Zaina Baddawi on her

1:53

new book, An African History of

1:56

Africa. And have you ever

1:58

thought about totally changing your life? Well, Ashley

2:00

Mullinger did just that. She quit her nine

2:02

to five office job and went on to

2:05

become fisherman of the year.

2:07

So no disruptions for the next hour,

2:09

just you and the radio. But

2:12

first, the deaths of 21

2:14

year old Diane Jones and her two young children

2:16

in a house fire on the 10th of October,

2:18

1995, shocked

2:21

the community of Murtha Tydfil. The

2:23

police originally thought it was an accident,

2:26

but in the days following the fire,

2:29

launched a triple murder investigation after Petrol

2:31

was found on the carpet. That

2:34

same night, mother of three Annette Huings had

2:36

taken her niece to buy an electricity token

2:38

at a petrol station, a night

2:40

that would change their lives forever. Just

2:43

months later, Annette was charged with

2:45

triple murder, manslaughter, and arson with

2:47

intent to endanger life. She

2:50

was found guilty with the charge of

2:52

arson and sentenced to 13 years. After

2:55

two and a half years, Annette's conviction was

2:57

overturned at the Court of Appeal and she

2:59

was released. She pleaded to

3:01

the world to find the real killers,

3:04

something that had not yet happened. She

3:07

died in 2017 at the age of 51. Well,

3:10

Annette's daughter, Nicole Jacob, has been

3:12

delving into her mum's story in

3:15

a new podcast, wrongly accused the

3:17

Annette Huings story. She joined

3:19

me from our Cardiff studio on Thursday and

3:21

I started by asking her why

3:23

she wanted to make the podcast. I think

3:25

I've spent my whole life hiding

3:28

from what happened to us and my

3:31

siblings and I trying to protect ourselves

3:33

from opening

3:35

that vulnerability and scrutiny. We face

3:37

lots of judgment, especially my mum

3:39

faced lots of judgment. And

3:43

I feel I've reached a stage in my life where

3:46

I need to be heard. This

3:50

is my identity, this was my life and

3:52

I always felt that nobody cared about us

3:54

and nobody cared that this happened and

3:57

that my childhood was taken from me and my mum

3:59

was taken from me. me. And ultimately, she died

4:01

in the most awful way. And when she

4:03

died, I felt that she was let down

4:05

the way she had been let down in

4:07

her life. This had also happened in her

4:09

death. And it was completely bushed

4:11

under the carpet and we were expected to move

4:13

on and forget about it. But

4:16

now I feel that I need to speak,

4:18

I need to share her story. And I

4:20

wanted to give her the platform and the

4:22

opportunity to do that. And so we've been

4:24

able to do that via this podcast. The

4:27

other reason I think that I

4:29

felt able to do this was

4:32

that we were given audio

4:34

tapes, recordings of my

4:36

mem after she was released

4:38

from prison. And they were a

4:40

real insight into my mem's mind, her thoughts

4:42

and her feelings at the time, which

4:45

is amazing for me. And it

4:48

just gave me that confidence that this would be

4:50

her sharing her experience. And this was a way

4:52

of getting her voice heard. It

4:55

is a gripping listen. And particularly

4:57

because it's you telling your mum's

4:59

story. And you can

5:02

you can feel the sense that

5:04

you want to have her story

5:06

told. And it's the sense it's

5:08

heartbreaking, the huge sense of injustice

5:11

that took place. And so and there's

5:13

a moment where you talk to your other siblings. But

5:16

you explain, well, it's not all of them. And

5:19

not all of them were as open to telling the

5:21

story as you. So I just wonder how that

5:23

conversation went about. And what made

5:26

you different? What made you

5:28

the one who really felt this sense that

5:30

you needed the story to be heard? I

5:33

think, you know, I'm 31. My

5:36

younger sister, she's still only 21. We're all

5:39

at different stages of grief

5:41

and processing. And our life

5:43

has been one traumatic

5:45

event after another, you know, after my mum's

5:47

release, it will be easy to imagine that

5:50

life went on and and everything

5:52

was OK. But that wasn't the case. You

5:54

know, my mum had a drug addiction and she

5:56

really suffered mentally and the support just wasn't

5:58

there along with that. My dad had

6:00

a really horrific accident and then my mum

6:02

lost that support network, that person that really

6:05

understood her. We went into

6:07

foster care and then eventually my mum

6:09

died. So all of this

6:11

has been really, really difficult for us and

6:13

we've just been trying to hold one another up.

6:15

You know, we're extremely close and we just

6:17

didn't want to crumble. We wanted a better

6:19

life and we wanted a brighter future. We didn't

6:22

want to be consumed the way that my

6:24

mum was. So we've been very

6:26

protective of one another and our stories. Yeah,

6:30

I think I'm older now. I'm

6:32

a mum myself. I think I'm a lot

6:34

more confident in my identity and who I

6:36

am. So I feel in a

6:39

position that I'm able to speak and

6:41

that I need to, you know, in order to

6:43

be able to process and move forward with my

6:45

life, I need to accept who I am. This

6:47

is very much a huge part of me and

6:50

my whole life I've been the strong

6:53

one, the big sister, the protector. And

6:55

I've always put everybody else first

6:57

and their well-being and what they wanted.

7:00

But I've come to the realization that I

7:02

have to think of myself and what I

7:05

need. And this is

7:07

so important to me. And

7:09

it's been a real healing process and

7:11

it's been an opportunity to connect with my

7:13

mum. I feel that, yeah, you know,

7:15

I feel so much closer to her now. After

7:18

her death, I was really, really traumatized. It

7:20

was a very dark time. My

7:22

older brother, Nathan, and I felt so responsible for

7:24

her death. How old were you when she was

7:26

51? How old were you? I was about

7:28

26, 25. So

7:32

it was really hard.

7:35

We kind of encouraged

7:37

her to go to the hospital and we

7:39

felt that this was going to be a turning point and

7:41

she was going to get the support she needed, psychiatric health.

7:44

And we were almost really excited that finally

7:47

we were in the position that she was

7:49

going to be understood and supported. And

7:51

within 24 hours, she was dead. So

7:54

we were devastated and all of our hopes

7:56

and dreams and everything that we had, we

7:59

thought. would happen in our future didn't you

8:02

know that I feel like the life was

8:04

stuck from me and part of

8:06

my heart was taken that day it was just

8:09

awful and it

8:11

took a long time to be able to

8:13

accept that and move on from from it

8:15

I couldn't even think about my mum I

8:18

didn't have photographs of her around the house any

8:20

memories I had were just those really traumatic ones

8:22

they were always at the forefront so this process

8:24

allowed me to remember the fighting spirit that she

8:27

had and the strength that she had and the

8:29

love that she had for all of us and

8:31

it's been great to hear the audios of her

8:34

advocating for herself and showing

8:37

that she was innocent and she

8:40

would tell the world and she would fight and

8:43

it's really sad that it didn't end the way

8:45

that she hoped that it did but

8:47

hearing so many positive stories and I've

8:50

heard from friends and people that were in prison

8:53

with her and and things like

8:55

that it's been really nice to

8:57

to know that there were people that cared there

8:59

were people that supported her and there were people

9:01

that knew the strength that she had so I

9:03

now have a picture of her in my kitchen

9:06

and I am able to think of her and

9:08

remember the positive times. We

9:10

can actually play a clip of your mum

9:12

in an interview she gave with this programme

9:14

in 1999 after being released this

9:17

is where she talks about giving birth because

9:19

she was pregnant when she was arrested and

9:22

the presenter was Martha Kearney. You

9:24

were actually pregnant when you were awaiting

9:26

trial how did you give

9:28

birth to Joshua? He

9:32

just spoke on me out to the prison I just I remember

9:34

all it was seen was just getting me out to this prison

9:36

I don't want my baby born in this prison I said

9:39

okay as long as I get me out to the gates and

9:41

I think we was far from the gates they had to stop on

9:43

a roundabout and I give birth

9:45

to Joshua on the roundabout then. Were you

9:47

able to keep him with you? Well

9:51

I was in the hostel I had

9:54

six hours I was going back

9:56

at six in the morning I had to leave to go

9:58

back at six in the morning to go back to the prison. So

10:01

they'd be telling me to try and get some sleep. I

10:03

thought I was expecting to sleep. Only these hours I had

10:06

with my baby. I wanted to spend every minute I could.

10:09

And in a way I couldn't wait for 6 o'clock to come because

10:11

I knew that I'd have to leave

10:13

him and I just wanted to get her over with. I had to

10:16

do a, you know, just get her over

10:18

with because it

10:20

was just too painful. That

10:22

was presenter Martha Carney speaking to your mum

10:24

in 1999 on Woman's Hour. What

10:27

was it like hearing that? It's really hard, you

10:30

know. One of the most difficult things of

10:32

this whole case and the experience for my mum

10:34

was giving birth to my brother Josh and having

10:36

him taken away from her. That was something she

10:39

could never get over. She

10:41

was so deeply traumatised by that and she

10:43

always felt that she needed to try and

10:45

compensate with Josh. And she

10:47

had another child afterwards, my

10:49

sister Sophia, and I think my mum

10:51

hoped that that would sort of help the healing

10:54

process and she would be able to relive the

10:56

experience that she missed with him. And

10:59

unfortunately, that didn't take away the hurt that she

11:01

had felt and she couldn't move on from that.

11:04

I think knowing that she was innocent and

11:07

then having her baby taken away from

11:09

her so unfairly was something

11:13

that she just couldn't

11:15

accept. And just to know

11:17

that she had 6 hours, such

11:19

a short amount of time, not

11:21

only for her, you know, to physically heal,

11:25

but also for my brother's well-being

11:28

and performative time with his

11:30

mother, you know. And

11:32

Josh still struggles with that now.

11:34

And this podcast, he's found it

11:37

really difficult to hear how the

11:39

prognosties suggested that my mum would

11:42

seriously consider an abortion because he

11:44

would be taken away from her regardless. And he

11:46

says, you know, they didn't want me to be

11:48

alive. If it was up to them, I wouldn't

11:50

be here today. And that's been

11:53

really hard. He still finds it extremely difficult

11:55

to talk about, and he was always

11:57

a reserved child. he

12:00

still holds a lot of that pain

12:02

inside. Is there

12:04

a part of you that thinks of the

12:06

if only in terms of your

12:08

mum going to the garage that night? Yeah,

12:12

definitely. I always

12:15

think if only and

12:17

throughout this process I have considered

12:21

I always thought that there must have been

12:23

more evidence or that the defence were just

12:25

absolutely awful, that

12:27

no witnesses came forward but I've learnt that

12:29

that's not necessarily the case and I

12:32

feel so frustrated that the people that were

12:34

there to safeguard and protect my mum didn't

12:37

do that. What do you hope the outcome

12:39

of this podcast will be? I think

12:41

our goal was to have my mum's voice

12:43

heard and to be able to actually share

12:46

the details and the extent of the story

12:48

with the general public and do

12:50

that for ourselves too which I feel that we

12:53

have done but ultimately now I just hear my

12:55

mum over and over in my head now

12:57

find the real killers, now find the real

12:59

killers and that's what I want. I want

13:02

the conclusion, I want to be

13:04

able to find those answers, I want

13:06

the police to take accountability. And

13:10

last question, Nicole, how are you and your siblings

13:12

at the end of this process? We're

13:15

okay, we've always been strong and we've always

13:18

strived for a better future and we've

13:20

been really fortunate to have one another and

13:23

I think my mum would be

13:26

pleased to look down and know that we

13:28

are all doing okay. A

13:30

really powerful conversation with Nicole Jacob

13:32

there. Nicole's podcast wrongly accused the

13:34

net hearing story is available now

13:36

on BBC Sounds. We

13:39

contacted South Wales Police for statements and

13:41

a spokesperson told us we've

13:43

used the lessons from much public and

13:45

independent scrutiny to drive change and transform

13:47

the way we carry out major investigations

13:50

and South Wales Police is committed to

13:52

learning and improving its service to victims.

13:55

We've led the way on improving and

13:57

professionalising investigative practice and have become a

13:59

leading force in major crime investigation

14:01

review. For example, our learning around

14:03

the challenges of disclosure in the

14:06

criminal justice system have led to

14:08

recognised good practice that has been

14:10

shared nationally. The way

14:12

in which major crime investigations, suspect

14:14

interviews and friendly liaison are carried

14:16

out have been transformed since the

14:18

practices referred to. Zaina

14:21

Badawi, the journalist and broadcaster and

14:23

president of the School of Oriental

14:25

and African Studies, also known as

14:27

SOAS in London, an expert in

14:29

her field, has written her first

14:31

book. It's called An African History

14:33

of Africa, From the Dawn of

14:35

Humanity to Independence. It's taken over

14:37

seven years to write and research,

14:39

travelling across more than 30 countries.

14:41

But what did she discover particularly

14:43

about the parts African women played

14:45

in their history? Zaina joined

14:47

CRUPA on Wednesday to find out more about

14:49

these women and why they haven't been given

14:51

the prominence they deserve. It was

14:54

the wonderful Congolese scholar in

14:56

Brazzaville, Scholastic De Anzinga, who

14:58

said to me, look, we always

15:00

talk about the fathers of

15:02

the independence movement in Africa. And

15:04

I felt that we

15:07

take the HIS in history a bit too

15:09

seriously and look at his

15:11

story. So where I could, I try to

15:13

feminise history. And indeed, I begin

15:16

with Lucy or Din

15:18

Kinesh, which means you're marvellous in

15:20

the Amharic language. She lived 3.2

15:22

million years ago. And of

15:25

course, she's a superstar in the

15:27

field of paleontology. She's a real icon.

15:29

I was privileged to touch her bones, which

15:32

are kept under lock and key in at

15:34

the National Museum in Addis Ababa, the capital

15:36

of Ethiopia. And although

15:39

strictly speaking, we

15:41

modern humans did not descend directly

15:43

from Lucy, but she is part

15:45

of the lineage that forms our early

15:47

story. And so I

15:50

gave a bit of a pen portrait about what she

15:52

would have been like, you know, she stands a metre

15:54

tall, she weighed about 30 kilograms, she would have walked

15:57

on two legs for most

16:00

time and that bipedalism was

16:02

very important because it freed her

16:04

hands to sharpen twigs that she

16:06

could go into kill

16:08

small animals or go

16:11

into reptile nests and that kind of thing. She

16:13

would have slept in trees so it's ironic that actually

16:15

she probably died when she was falling from

16:18

a tree. Interesting. There

16:20

was one period that you focused

16:22

on, the period of slavery, you

16:24

talk about the transatlantic trade and

16:27

you also talk about the Arab trade

16:29

almost, that isn't the Indian Ocean slave

16:32

trade which isn't spoken about as extensively.

16:34

That has really stayed with me, the

16:36

way in which women were used as

16:38

slaves in a different way. Absolutely.

16:41

So I do look at what is

16:43

sometimes referred to as the Eastern trade

16:45

which is the Arabs and their partners

16:48

when they enslaved African people

16:50

across the Indian Ocean predominantly but also

16:52

across the Red Sea and trans Sahara

16:54

trade from Africa going

16:57

up to Arab families who lived

16:59

in North Africa. In

17:01

the transatlantic slave trade, men really

17:04

outnumbered women greatly because they were

17:06

preferred to women

17:08

because obviously they did the back-breaking work

17:11

on the plantations. In

17:13

the Eastern trade, women were preferred

17:15

because they were often used as

17:17

concubines, sex slaves essentially. There

17:20

were vital differences. So for example, if

17:22

an Arab man had a child with

17:25

his enslaved African woman, that

17:27

child would be born free and could

17:29

indeed rise to occupy a high

17:31

position in society by dint of the

17:33

fact that he had Arab blood in

17:35

him because very patriarchal society. In

17:38

the transatlantic slave trade, if a white

17:40

man sired a child with his enslaved

17:42

woman, then that child would be born

17:44

a slave and in fact there are

17:46

many examples in history of the

17:50

product of such relationships being put

17:52

to work on plantations themselves. So

17:55

there were key differences between the

17:57

two. Eastern

18:00

trade Indian Ocean slave trade lasted

18:02

much longer accounted for probably about

18:04

14 million people the transatlantic

18:06

slave trade about 12 and a half

18:09

million. And then there were

18:11

these women in Senegal in a

18:13

small village in Senegal and again

18:16

that story stood out to me

18:18

they refused to accept enslavement. Yes

18:20

this was a story that was told to me by

18:23

various historians Professor Esi South villains

18:25

in Ghana at the University of Accra there.

18:27

In 1819 in the small wallow village of

18:31

Nder which is now in present day

18:33

Senegal a number of

18:36

women heard that there were enslavers coming to

18:38

take them to work in North Africa as

18:40

conspines and you know sex slaves and they

18:42

managed to fight the Arabs off actually the

18:44

men had been working in the field at

18:47

the time only a small number had come

18:49

but then a larger number came the women

18:51

knew that they would not be able to

18:53

defeat them so under

18:57

the guidance of one

18:59

woman they decided to go into a

19:01

hut and set

19:04

fire to the hut so that they would

19:06

die as free women rather than live

19:09

as slaves. But there was

19:11

one heavily pregnant woman who was gasping for

19:13

air and she made a bolt for it

19:16

and they were going to stop her and then

19:18

they thought you know what let her go so

19:20

at least our heroism as

19:22

they saw it can be known

19:25

about by our you know progeny

19:27

by our great grandchildren and our

19:29

grandchildren and indeed that story

19:31

has persisted and to this day at

19:34

this village in in Senegal every

19:38

one Tuesday in November everybody

19:40

stops working out

19:43

of respect for the women of Nder. That

19:45

is so powerful we have to

19:47

talk about the queens as well

19:49

the many queens of Africa Queen

19:52

Idia of Benin in West Africa 90%

19:54

of Benin bronzes are of men but

19:57

here we have Queen Idia. Queen Idia of

20:00

course the very famous Benin bronze. The

20:02

bust is in the British Museum here

20:05

in London and she lived around

20:07

the late 1400s and she

20:09

was the first woman in the

20:11

Benin Kingdom which is in Nigeria,

20:13

not the country Benin.

20:16

And she was the first woman to have a

20:18

Benin bronze made for

20:21

her by the cast of

20:23

the bronze casters, the guild of the

20:25

bronze casters. And the reason

20:28

why is her son Essigie who

20:30

was the king or the Ober as the

20:32

people of Benin call it was

20:35

so grateful to his mother. She had helped

20:37

him get to the throne and she really

20:40

was a key source of support for him during

20:42

his long reign which began in

20:44

1504 and lasted until 1550.

20:49

She kept an eye on his health. She

20:51

preserved a small regiment in the army to

20:54

help keep him secure. She helped him with

20:56

the day to day process of running government.

20:58

He created the position of Iyoba for

21:00

her which means Queen Mother and when

21:02

she died he was so grief

21:05

stricken that he had

21:07

for the first time a bronze head

21:09

made for a woman and

21:11

that's why that tradition

21:13

started. And it's ironic that today actually

21:16

Queen Edea has eclipsed the

21:18

fame of her son Essigie for whom

21:20

she worked so assiduously. Just

21:23

before we wrap up I want to talk about

21:25

something that will be personal to you because you

21:27

talk a great deal in the book about the

21:29

overfrowing of Umar al-Bashir in Sudan back in

21:32

2019. I remember covering it, young people

21:34

at the forefront, women especially as you

21:36

rightly highlight. Now five years on Sudan

21:38

is in a very different place, civil

21:40

war, women, children

21:42

are bearing the brunt of hunger, displacement and

21:45

violence. And I know this is personal for

21:47

you because your own grandfather championed the well-being,

21:49

the education of girls in Sudan.

21:51

I wonder how you reflect on what's happening

21:53

there? I mean it's absolutely awful. Yes indeed

21:56

it was my great grandfather who was the

21:58

pioneer of female education in Sudan. Sudan at

22:00

the turn of the last century. So you

22:02

could say that female education is

22:04

a kind of family business. I

22:06

mean, he'd be turning in his grave to see just

22:09

what has happened. My whole family who

22:12

live in Sudan, my extended family

22:14

have all taken flight mostly to

22:17

Cairo, to Egypt, some import Sudan.

22:19

And it is always,

22:22

as you say, the women and the

22:24

children who bear the brunt because women

22:27

in Sudan in this awful conflict

22:29

have been subjected to the most

22:31

awful sexual violence, mass

22:34

rape, people performing it with impunity.

22:36

And it really, we're

22:41

all at a loss as to why

22:43

this conflict has now persisted for a

22:45

year. It broke out in April, on

22:47

April the 15th. And it

22:49

was such a glorious revolution five years ago

22:51

in April when Amurah Bashir

22:53

was toppled. And women were very much in

22:55

the vanguard. And they were referred

22:58

to as kandakas, which is

23:00

an ancient northern Sudanese name for

23:02

the queens and queen

23:04

mothers. And so therefore,

23:06

you have that continuity of history

23:08

again, whereby the women who

23:11

were leading the marches were referred

23:13

to as the queen mothers,

23:15

the kandakas. So I

23:18

really, as a lost creeper, as

23:20

to say, when we will find some

23:22

kind of end to this madness.

23:26

Zaina Badawi, her book, An African History of

23:28

Africa from the Dawn of Humanity to Independence,

23:30

is out now. Every so often I hear

23:32

an interview on Woman's Hour and think, oh,

23:35

that's a good one. But it's OK, because I

23:37

get my fair share of brilliant interviews too, like

23:39

this next one. In 2012,

23:41

Ashley Mullinger signed up for a fishing trip

23:43

on the coast of Norfolk. She didn't know,

23:45

though, it would change the course of her

23:48

life. Her memoir, My Fishing

23:50

Life, follows her journey from a nine

23:52

to five office job into the overwhelmingly

23:54

male fishing industry to become fishermen of

23:56

the year 2022. The book includes stories

23:58

of the world and stories of

24:00

stormy weather, new boats and old boats,

24:02

and friendship on the water, but it

24:04

also is a tale of

24:06

self-discovery and acceptance. Ashley

24:09

Mullinger joined me yesterday and I started

24:11

by asking her, is

24:13

she really a fisherman? I

24:15

choose to say fisherman purely

24:18

because it's respect for

24:20

the predominantly male catching sector that's gone

24:23

before me and worked

24:25

hard and in some cases given their lives for

24:28

putting fish on tables and I'm not

24:30

about to breeze in and take that

24:32

away from them. Ultimately, I love what

24:34

I do. You could call me anything

24:37

you wanted and as long as I'm doing the

24:39

job, it wouldn't matter. We

24:42

need to go back to what I opened

24:44

with. This is not something you grew up with.

24:46

It was not on the agenda.

24:48

It was never your dream as a child.

24:50

You were at an office job nine to

24:52

five. What happened? I

24:55

went out on a charter angling trip and

24:59

just being out there, I fell in

25:01

love. I fell in love with the environment and

25:03

I think a lot of that was because I'd

25:05

come from an office where I was constantly getting

25:07

phone calls, emails, people saying, oh, Ash, can you

25:09

do this? Can you do that? Or can you

25:12

solve this problem for me? And

25:14

then I went out to sea and all of

25:16

that just goes and

25:18

you're completely isolated and I

25:20

think having that calmness and

25:22

the environment being

25:25

the only thing that's really important just

25:27

resonated with me and then

25:29

the skipper just couldn't get rid of me. So

25:31

what was it about it that made you fall in love with

25:33

it? Because I have been on a few

25:36

fishing expeditions in my other

25:38

line of work Sunday night

25:41

and it's extreme. It is extreme.

25:43

It's not for the faint-hearted. It's

25:46

a certain lifestyle. It's lonely.

25:48

It's cold. Yeah, extreme

25:50

weather. So what was it that made you

25:52

fall in love? I think

25:55

when I sat in an office, I think

25:57

I relied quite a lot on my

25:59

own. mind just to propel me through the

26:01

day. Whereas now not only

26:03

am I relying on my mind, but every

26:05

muscle in my body is important and

26:08

I feel like I'm truly living in all

26:10

of me rather than just existing in my head

26:14

to solve problems. And I think

26:17

it's really quite grounding to be

26:20

out in the environment where all

26:23

that matters is the real here and now in

26:25

the moment. It's one

26:28

of those things that I find really hard to describe because it's a

26:30

feeling. You're

26:32

doing a good job describing it. I'm looking

26:35

at you now, quite glamorous,

26:38

lovely outfit on, hair, makeup, you

26:40

know, this is the

26:42

opposite of that. It really is. So

26:44

when I get the opportunity to actually

26:47

brush my hair or put a face on, I do

26:49

use it. So let's talk through your day

26:51

to day then, what does it consist of? Well day

26:53

to days can change because we work from

26:55

a tidal harbour. So sometimes the day will

26:58

start at nine o'clock in the morning and

27:00

we'll be in at seven o'clock at night.

27:03

And sometimes the day might start at two o'clock in

27:05

the morning and then you'll be in at

27:07

about three o'clock. So we're restricted by

27:09

the tide. We can't get in and out all the

27:11

time. So once we're out, we're out until the next

27:13

time. I mean, you've got to love it to be getting

27:15

up in the middle of the night, haven't you? I mean, if

27:18

you're getting out of bed at 1am, this is a passion. It

27:20

is a passion, but then in the winter,

27:22

OK, not so nice, you

27:24

know, the car's iced up and it's

27:27

cold and... But you have to do

27:29

it. But you have to do it. Because if it's

27:31

your chosen profession and it's your livelihood, you just have

27:33

to do it. You just have to go. But then in

27:35

the summer, when you're getting up at sort of two in

27:37

the morning and the sunrise is

27:39

starting and you see all these different colours in

27:41

the sky and you feel like it's just for

27:44

you because there's nobody else out there and

27:46

you see the seagulls waking up. They're

27:49

normally trying to steal your bait. It's very

27:51

solitary. Really massively solitary.

27:54

Would you consider yourself a solitary person? We did a...

27:56

In fact, last week we talked about solitude on the

27:59

programme. that you were a solitary

28:01

person? I don't think I am a solitary person.

28:04

I don't think I could work on a boat

28:06

that went out for weeks at a time and

28:09

come back. So we're a dayboat, we're

28:12

back pretty much, you know, every

28:14

day. But I think having

28:16

that solitude just for 10, 12

28:19

hours is just wonderful. And

28:21

I'm not entirely on my own. I've got Nij, the

28:23

skipper. We need to talk about Nij. I'm glad you brought up

28:25

Nij because I was about to ask you about Nigel. How,

28:28

well, he's a huge part of your life. I

28:30

mean, he's the reason you do what you do.

28:32

Talk to us about that. Tell us about Nigel.

28:34

Nigel is at sea today. Is

28:37

he listening? I hope so. If he's managed to work

28:39

out how to use his phone to get us up

28:41

to the Bluetooth on the boat. Nigel

28:44

has been a massive part of empowering me

28:46

to feel the confidence in myself to be

28:48

able to do the job. There's

28:52

never ever been any ceremony or

28:55

any kind of pep talks. It's

28:57

just a case of, okay, Ash, you're going

28:59

to do this. Did he spot it in you though? Didn't

29:01

he say you should do it? Wasn't he the first person that

29:03

he was? Yeah, he said, I asked him, I

29:05

said, did you not think it was weird? Like

29:08

I just kept coming back and booking fishing trips.

29:10

And then, you know, friendship

29:12

formed. And he was

29:15

like, he said, I did, but then

29:17

I could see in you that you really loved

29:19

being out there at sea. And I wasn't about

29:21

to hold you back from that. So he took

29:23

a chance on a girl with no experience. And

29:25

I mean, what would Nige

29:27

describe himself as a feminist? I mean, he's definitely

29:29

an ally. He's an

29:31

ally to women. Yeah, I don't think he

29:34

would describe himself as a feminist. And

29:36

I think he's been asked this question before.

29:38

And he said, Nigel, you're a feminist. I

29:40

like women. That's all you'll get from

29:42

him. He's a man of few words. So

29:45

he changed your life. He really did. Yeah, really

29:47

did. How the

29:51

other characters apart from Nigel, the

29:53

boats themselves. Tell me about

29:55

the bond that you develop with the vessels. It's

29:59

such. a special relationship

30:02

and boats aren't just a

30:05

tool for a job. They become part of you, they

30:09

need you, you have to look after them and the

30:11

deal is you look after them and they look after

30:13

you. You take them out into

30:16

a potentially what comes with a really dangerous environment

30:18

and you put your trust into them.

30:21

They're better at sea than any human being. I

30:25

explore in

30:27

my fishing life the relationships between all

30:29

the boats that feature. They

30:32

do play up and I sometimes have to

30:34

go and sit and get below deck and talk

30:36

to them and say come on, you're being

30:38

a bit of a madam, I need you to get on

30:40

side here. Ashram,

30:43

the way you're talking to me about how you

30:46

feel about fishing, I can see

30:48

it in your eyes. Your eyes

30:50

are sparkling, I'm sure everyone listening can hear it,

30:52

the passion in your voice. If

30:54

I was talking to Ashley 15 years

30:57

ago, would you believe that this is you now? No,

31:01

absolutely not. I've changed as

31:03

a person because of the job, definitely. Like

31:06

how much? Are we talking

31:08

a U-turn, are we talking 90 degrees,

31:10

like how much have you changed a lot? Ashram,

31:12

I don't know, it's hard to put

31:15

how much you've changed on it but

31:17

I see differences in myself. I feel

31:19

more confident, I feel more empowered to

31:21

make choices and decisions that I perhaps

31:24

didn't before. Are you happier? Yes, absolutely.

31:26

I couldn't go back to

31:28

a 9-5 now. It's like I've opened

31:30

Pandora's box and it's an

31:33

exciting world where every day is different and every

31:35

day challenges you and I couldn't

31:37

go back. There might be someone listening on their headphones

31:39

at their desk right now. I hope so.

31:41

Itching. I hope so. With

31:44

their trainers ready to run out the door, would you

31:46

encourage them to go for it? I would. I would

31:48

definitely encourage them to look into it. And

31:50

especially women because in

31:53

the last six years, when I first started,

31:55

I know of two other women active on

31:57

boats and now that number is definitely over

31:59

20. and I received

32:01

a message the other day from a 14 year old girl in

32:04

Scotland and she said thank

32:06

you for basically just showing up because it's

32:08

made me feel like it's something that I

32:10

could do and I'm in a she was

32:12

in a fishing family anyway and

32:15

it's those young women that need to

32:18

see women in roles like this in

32:20

order to think yeah I could see myself doing

32:22

that and I think it's

32:25

just so important that we're here and we're

32:27

accepted by the industry and taking up space

32:30

and in 2022 as I mentioned you were

32:32

awarded Fisher man of the year the first

32:34

woman to ever hold the title yeah how

32:36

did that feel and did you ruffle any

32:39

feathers? It

32:41

felt amazing just to be nominated in

32:44

the first instance to be recognized by

32:46

the industry to actually win it was

32:48

really quite something I had to hold

32:51

back tears when they

32:53

read my name out for the award and

32:56

did I ruffle any feathers? Not within

32:59

the industry the industry was really

33:01

welcoming and accepting and I think

33:03

some people were like it

33:06

should be Fisher woman or Fisher or not

33:08

Fisher man but I have

33:10

my reasons for wanting to say Fisherman

33:14

but yeah generally the industry was really really

33:16

welcoming and it was really lovely to have

33:18

that acceptance. For a fish and

33:20

chip loving nation I think she's right and

33:23

what an inspiring interview Ashley Moolinger her book

33:25

My Fishing Life is out now. Still

33:28

to come on the program singing and your

33:30

periods what happens to our voice when hormone

33:32

changes take place and remember you can enjoy

33:34

Woman's Hour any hour of the day if

33:37

you can't join us live at 10 a.m.

33:39

during the week all you need to do

33:41

is subscribe to the daily podcast for free

33:43

via BBC sounds. The

33:45

government has announced it's making it easier

33:48

for police to apply for stalking protection

33:50

orders with the aim of addressing perpetrator

33:52

behavior sooner. Those who breach the

33:55

order could end up with five years in

33:57

prison. This comes as a report from

33:59

the Susie Lampe Blue Trust find several police

34:01

forces applying for fewer than 10 orders

34:03

in a year, highlighting a conviction

34:05

rate of just 1.7% of all

34:08

cases reported to the police. The

34:10

charity is calling for increased accountability

34:12

in the criminal justice system. More

34:14

from their interim CEO Emma Lingley-Clark in

34:16

a moment, but first we'll hear from

34:19

Rhiannon Bragg. Rhiannon spoke

34:21

to us in February about her

34:23

fears for her safety regarding her

34:25

ex-boyfriend's imminent release from prison, despite

34:28

a parole board hearing deeming it

34:30

unsafe he was released. She'd

34:32

previously been stalked and threatened by him

34:35

after ending the relationship. He was arrested

34:37

three times, but no further action was

34:39

taken. Later, he held

34:41

her hostage at gunpoint for

34:43

eight hours. In February

34:46

2020, Gareth Wynn-Jones was given an extended

34:48

determinate sentence of four and a half

34:50

years in prison with an extended license

34:52

period of five years for stalking, false

34:54

imprisonment, threats to kill and possession

34:57

of a firearm to which he pleaded guilty.

35:00

There are strict licensing conditions in place

35:02

which Rhiannon is not able to discuss.

35:05

Crouper asked her how she was doing following

35:07

his release from prison two months ago. Well,

35:10

it's obviously a challenging time.

35:12

What we try and do is we

35:14

try to lead life as normally as

35:17

possible, speaking as a

35:19

mother of children living on a small holding,

35:21

which is coming to the end of lambing.

35:23

And a lot of

35:25

that, if we're not able to do

35:27

that, then it would be absolutely devastating. And

35:30

part of being stalked, part of one of

35:32

the very normal reactions is that you actually

35:34

make your world much, much smaller. And

35:36

that in itself is a hugely devastating

35:39

thing to happen to anybody. So

35:41

as you said, we're totally reliant

35:43

on the authorities through the

35:45

robust license conditions that have been put

35:47

in place to safely manage the offender

35:49

throughout this next part of the sentence.

35:52

But it's, yeah, we try our best,

35:55

but it's not easy. I think it's fair to say, I know

35:58

at times I... I hope

36:00

I appear fairly normal, but actually it

36:02

was quite a thin facade and I've

36:04

had a number of sharp reminders about

36:07

how raw the trauma that was caused

36:09

really is. Those sharp reminders,

36:11

can you talk us through them?

36:14

So part of what

36:17

I've been left with essentially is PTSD and

36:20

there'll be triggers. I

36:22

won't specify which sort of triggers but you can

36:24

feel absolutely fine, you're carrying on the life in

36:26

whatever way you normally can and then it could

36:28

be something, it could be a bolt from the

36:30

blue and it takes you right back and it's

36:33

an incredible reminder about how really

36:35

vulnerable you can feel in

36:37

these situations and one of

36:39

the things that I have always maintained,

36:41

although I do appreciate having told you

36:43

legally it's not the case, is that

36:45

the worst of the offenses that I

36:47

experienced for me was the stalking and

36:50

that a behavior where

36:52

someone else can behave in a

36:55

way towards another person that actually

36:57

leads them to feel that they

36:59

would consider taking their own life

37:01

as a way out and part of

37:04

that again it was to do with the response

37:06

I had from the authorities when I approached

37:08

them because by that time I had engaged

37:10

with police, masses had gone to the CPS

37:13

and things hadn't moved further forward. So

37:15

this is why I think it's really important to

37:17

be having actually

37:23

tries to publish which paints a

37:25

horrific picture but

37:27

also to welcome the changes on

37:30

how stalking protection orders will

37:33

be implemented although there's a in

37:35

my opinion an awful lot that needs to

37:37

change alongside that to make it effective. You

37:39

mentioned your children in your opening answer, how are

37:42

they? They

37:46

can be perfectly normal children a lot of the

37:48

time, getting homework done isn't

37:50

always easy, they've all been significantly

37:52

affected by what we've experienced, they

37:56

all show behaviors

37:58

that are There is a

38:01

range of behaviours, classically controlling, there

38:03

is support in place for

38:05

them. It's been an

38:08

incredibly damaging and difficult time,

38:10

which I hope we now move

38:12

forward from. And one of

38:14

the things I'm often asked about, and you hear this

38:16

a lot with domestic abuse is talking to me, but

38:18

what actually happens? For me with the children, I think

38:20

the easiest way to perhaps describe it

38:22

to an audience is to think that

38:24

if you forget about any

38:26

specifics and just imagine that as their

38:29

mother, if a single

38:31

parent is looking after them and

38:33

essentially removed from that

38:35

picture, from that role, and that they were then

38:37

a rudderless so long

38:39

at such a time of life. So

38:42

I'm incredibly proud of how they are

38:44

and how they carry on with their lives. Listening

38:47

to Rhiannon is Emma Lingley-Clark, Interim

38:49

Chief Executive of the Suvi Lamploo

38:51

Trust, which runs the National Stalking

38:53

Helpline and has supported over 75,000

38:55

victims to date.

38:57

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Emma, what

38:59

do you make of what Rhiannon has just said?

39:02

We completely agree with everything that Rhiannon

39:04

says in terms of her experiences as

39:06

a victim and the way

39:09

that the system is responding to it

39:11

currently is not sufficient. And

39:13

it is a full system response that's

39:15

needed. We often, you know, our frames

39:17

of information focused on particularly the police

39:19

and the CPS, but every agency has

39:21

a responsibility to deal with stalking. Well,

39:23

let's talk in a bit more depth

39:25

about that freedom of information request that

39:27

you put in. That

39:30

was a request to police forces. What did you

39:32

find? So

39:34

unfortunately, we were

39:37

disappointed with everything that we found in

39:39

some ways because it really showed that

39:41

there is a lack of accountability across

39:43

the system in terms of us being

39:45

actually able to identify what happens

39:47

to victims as they go through the system. So we

39:50

asked about forces that might have

39:53

a dedicated stalking specialist officer. So

39:55

someone whose job is to deal

39:57

with stalking and actually only says...

40:00

seven police forces had one of

40:02

those within their force and actually 12 didn't

40:04

have one at all. We

40:06

didn't actually even ask the question in terms of what

40:08

a specialist officer would

40:11

– how much training would they have? One of the things that we

40:13

know from our experience is that often stalking

40:16

specialist officers don't have any more training

40:18

than another officer. It might come as

40:20

part of their job, but it's not

40:22

from that day one. We

40:25

also found, I think, as you've talked

40:27

about in terms of the SPOs, the

40:29

stalking protection orders, the numbers are still

40:32

shockingly low. They were introduced to try

40:34

and provide immediate protection for victims, recognising

40:36

that the danger that victims of stalking

40:39

are in, and yet that's not working.

40:41

I think we're also seeing, unfortunately,

40:44

some decreases in the number of

40:46

reports of stalking in some police

40:48

forces, which for us is just

40:51

not acceptable. Rhianne, you've

40:53

told us how you felt that you were let

40:55

down by the way that the North Wales police

40:57

dealt with your case, and since then you've been

40:59

working with them and others to make things better

41:01

for victims. Do you think the issue

41:04

of stalking has been taken seriously enough by police,

41:06

now at least by police and others? Yes,

41:08

I work closely with North Wales police,

41:10

and just as an example, at the

41:12

time the stalking wasn't recognised, it was

41:14

a stalking specialist officer. Although I know

41:17

more recently, since Chief

41:19

Constable Amanda Blayton has come on board, there

41:21

is now a specialist stalking officer in North

41:23

Wales, and it just shows that change,

41:25

it is possible and it is achievable.

41:28

And absolutely, as Emma said, to

41:30

have a specialist stalking officer in

41:32

each force would be an absolute minimum

41:35

in order to manage this, but they

41:37

need to be alongside this mandatory training

41:39

for all involved in all authorities with

41:42

stalking, with stalking cases, with stalking victims,

41:44

because if professionals involved don't know what

41:46

to look for, if they're not aware

41:49

of the range of stalking behaviours, if

41:51

they're not aware of all the tools

41:53

that could be used to manage these

41:56

behaviours and for intervention, and

41:58

if they're not aware of if there is no... intervention

42:00

where this behaviour can lead and

42:03

things like the stalking protection order will never be used

42:06

in the numbers that they should be. On

42:08

this, the National Police Chiefs Council lead

42:10

for stalking and harassment Deputy Chief Constable

42:12

Paul Mills has said, Over

42:14

the last number of years we have

42:16

improved training, rolled out the use of

42:19

stalking protection orders and launched a new

42:21

assessment tool to assist officers to identify

42:23

and better act upon the signs of

42:25

stalking. In addition, we have

42:27

introduced embedding dedicated officers and forces

42:29

to better support and safeguard victims.

42:31

However, we know that there is

42:33

more to do to improve criminal

42:35

justice system outcomes for victims in

42:38

these cases. Emma, can

42:40

you outline to us just

42:42

how prevalent stalking is? That's really important for

42:44

us to better understand the degree in which

42:46

this is happening. So it's

42:49

estimated that there's about 1.6 million

42:51

victims of stalking every year. It's about one

42:54

in five women and one in 10 men

42:56

in their lifetime will be a victim. So

42:58

it's hugely prevalent in society. But

43:01

then when we compare that to the number of reports, if you think

43:03

1.6 million cases of stalking, there's

43:05

only 116,000 police reports. So

43:09

there's a huge discrepancy in terms of the

43:11

number of people that are actually reporting. There's

43:14

a lot of talk about the role of stalking

43:16

advocates. Can you just explain what their role would

43:18

be? So stalking

43:20

advocates are basically there to

43:22

support the victim with whatever

43:25

they need in a sense. One of the

43:27

things they really do is provide emotional support.

43:29

But they're also a key part of the

43:31

safety plan to help advise the victim on

43:34

things that they might be able to do

43:36

to work around some of the stalkers' behaviors,

43:38

risk management, so identifying the level of risk.

43:40

But then one of the other key things

43:42

they do is actually will advocate on behalf

43:44

of the victim to agencies. So they will

43:46

go to the police and they will in

43:49

a sense demand the service that the victim

43:51

is entitled to on behalf of that victim

43:53

or working with the victim themselves. Yeah. In

43:56

terms of the role, therefore, of stalking advocates,

43:58

I wonder, Rhiannon, whether you like this

44:00

would have been useful in your case? I

44:02

mean if I'm unsure I learnt about stalking

44:05

the hard way and it was

44:07

a horrific nearly fatal experience but

44:10

I strongly suspect that

44:12

if there had been an

44:14

independent stalking advocate to support me

44:16

in my situation of what was happening

44:19

then actually the cost that

44:21

would have been saved,

44:23

the cost that was spent on my situation would

44:26

have actually funded a few advocates for a few

44:28

years. On that law

44:30

of faris, Minister for Victims and Safeguiding has

44:32

said we must continue to treat stalking with

44:34

the utmost gravity having doubled the maximum sentence

44:36

and introduced a new civil order to protect

44:39

victims. We know that there is more to

44:41

be done lowering the standard of proof that

44:43

must be met to grant these orders will

44:45

make a big difference to how easily victims

44:47

can access protection and that she will continue

44:50

to work closely with the police to improve

44:52

how they can support victims of this disturbing

44:54

crime. Which leads me to an important question

44:56

to you Emma. Can

44:58

you explain the numbers of stalking

45:00

victims there are in comparison to

45:03

the number of convictions? So

45:06

when obviously in terms of 1.6 million

45:08

cases and then we have

45:10

116,000 reports that was up to March 2023 and

45:12

then we're looking at

45:16

about 1,955 of those reported that were actually convicted

45:18

so it is at 1.7 percent, it's

45:24

shockingly low. It is. Important to

45:26

highlight some forces are working well

45:28

on this. Yep so we've worked with a number

45:30

of forces, Cheshire, London,

45:33

Hampshire and Cambridgeshire around the development

45:35

of multi-agency stalking intervention programs which

45:37

is where we bring together a

45:40

team of police, probation, psychologists and

45:42

advocates to work to actually start

45:44

from that very first moment that

45:46

the report comes in to really

45:49

identify risk and put in place

45:52

risk management options but also starting to

45:55

make sure that the perpetrator is going

45:57

to go in the right direction, get the right direction.

46:00

right outcome in court, but making sure the victim stays

46:02

at the centre of it. And what more do you

46:04

think needs to be done? So

46:06

we would like there to be

46:08

a multi-entry stalking intervention program in

46:10

every single police force area. That

46:13

would be our ideal solution. We'd

46:15

also like to see every force

46:17

rolling out mandatory training. And

46:19

we are putting in, we've also put

46:21

out a request for 243

46:25

million of ring fence funding for

46:27

stalking advocates. That would allow us

46:29

to provide really comprehensive support to

46:31

as many victims as we can. It still wouldn't

46:34

allow us to support every one of those 1.6,

46:36

but it would help us to get to those

46:39

that need it. Rhiannon, reflecting on your own experiences

46:41

and what happened afterwards, what would

46:43

you say to someone who thinks that

46:45

they are at risk or are being

46:47

stalked? It's very much a

46:49

case of reaching out in whatever

46:51

way you're able to and

46:54

you will remain safe in doing so. And to

46:56

keep a record of the behaviour. One of the massive issues

46:59

with stalking, I feel, is

47:01

how the behaviours, the stalking behaviours are minimised.

47:03

People can be very dismissive about it. Well,

47:06

it's not actually that bad. They're only doing

47:08

this or they're only doing that. So to

47:10

reach out to a different kind of, whether

47:12

it's through the national stalking helpline, whether it's

47:15

through the police directly, whether it's through the

47:17

GP, but to contact

47:19

somebody and the process of

47:22

keeping the victims safe and

47:24

managing the behaviour of the

47:26

perpetrator can begin. Cooper

47:28

speaking with Rhiannon Bragg and Emma

47:30

Lindley Clark. Now,

47:32

for some of us, periods can

47:35

be a real hindrance to your daily life.

47:37

But what's it like when your time of

47:39

the month alters something key to your job?

47:42

Your voice. Sophie Bevan is

47:44

an acclaimed opera singer who spends her

47:46

life performing in some of the world's

47:48

most prestigious venues. While she took

47:51

to ex, formerly known as Twitter, to ask

47:53

fellow female singers if they also struggled with

47:55

their voice when their period was due, this

47:58

led to her discovery of something called... called

48:00

premenstrual vocal syndrome, when our hormones

48:02

impact our vocal cords. Well, Krupa

48:05

was joined by Dr Alan Watson

48:07

from the University of Cardiff who

48:09

specialises in the biology of performance

48:12

and she also spoke to Sophie

48:14

about her experiences of her period

48:16

and singing. All my life I've

48:19

sort of known that when I'm on my period that

48:21

my voice is somewhat

48:23

different. And this

48:25

is something that we amongst ourselves as singers

48:27

talk about. But it's not anything

48:30

that we were taught about when we were studying

48:32

at conservatwaff, or most of

48:34

us have studied for between five and seven

48:36

years, but this was never

48:38

discussed. And it's something

48:40

that we, I think, as singers have always

48:42

felt rather embarrassed to talk about. We

48:45

operate in quite

48:47

a small competitive pond. And

48:50

so therefore, I think we're reluctant to

48:53

admit when we're struggling, because we're terrified

48:55

that any admission of weakness

48:57

might be held against us and then

48:59

we'll therefore be overlooked for a job. Even though

49:01

it's incredible that this might be seen as a weakness,

49:04

it is because, you know, we

49:06

are judged on our voices. And

49:09

when you say Sophie that your voice is

49:11

different, how? What happens to it? So

49:15

basically, I mean, most people don't really know anything

49:17

about this, because they don't use their voices in the

49:19

extreme way that oppers singers do. So

49:22

our vocal folds, which

49:24

lie inside our larynx, mimic

49:26

exactly the glands inside our

49:28

cervix, which was it is incredible

49:30

to me. I had no idea about this. At

49:33

the time of menstruation, our hormones fluctuate, as

49:35

we know. But this also means

49:38

that our vocal cords thicken and swell. And

49:40

this can lead to hoarseness, and

49:43

a breathy tone, a loss of

49:45

range we use, we have a huge range of

49:47

opera singers, especially because

49:49

we have to amplify our

49:51

voices over whole orchestras into

49:54

huge auditoriums without any amplification

49:56

at all tiredness, feeling unsure

49:58

about tuners. and loss

50:01

of stamina. I mean, this is

50:03

very different for very, very, for very,

50:05

for different women, sorry. So this isn't

50:07

the same for everyone. But I found

50:09

as I've got older, and after having

50:11

children that it's become worse. And

50:13

when I'm when I start my period, as I did

50:15

on that particular day when I wrote on Twitter, I

50:19

suddenly found that I had nowhere

50:22

near the normal amount of control that I do

50:24

over my voice. And I was

50:26

standing in front of an audience, feeling

50:29

like feeling terrified feeling as though

50:31

I had no control. What was going to

50:33

come out of my mouth was everyone they're going to think,

50:35

oh, Sophie can't sing anymore. And

50:37

therefore my career would be over. And

50:40

just struggling sweating to kind

50:43

of do what was normally

50:47

completely easy for me. Dr.

50:49

Alan Watson, let me bring you in there

50:51

Sophie's touched on an introduction as to what

50:54

it is, but just explain it to us

50:57

more scientifically how pre menstrual

50:59

vocal syndrome happens and why.

51:02

Oh, what Sophia said provides the

51:04

essence of it. And that is

51:06

that there are lots of hormone

51:08

receptors in the larynx, because we

51:10

appreciate because we see changes in

51:12

the voice at the time of

51:14

puberty. And this causes

51:18

at least the symptoms that Sophie describes,

51:20

because the vocal folds, which vibrate

51:22

very rapidly during singing, if you're

51:25

singing middle C, the

51:27

folds are vibrating 250 times, the

51:29

second and double that if you go on

51:32

up to above, then anything that changes the

51:34

properties of the folds is going to have

51:36

a very dramatic effect. And of course, if

51:39

it is a singer whose use

51:41

of the voice is highly trained, and

51:43

the use is very subtle, then even

51:45

small changes, and many of these are

51:47

not particularly small, is going

51:49

to disturb the voice. So

51:51

the attention of fluid, for

51:54

example, by by

51:56

the vocal folds, that's like retention of

51:58

fluid, you might see elsewhere in the body blood. I

52:00

suppose might be the symptom elsewhere,

52:03

is something which makes it much

52:05

harder for the folds to vibrate

52:07

because they have more mass. On

52:10

top of that, the surface

52:12

may become dry, so you have

52:14

this paradox of swelling and

52:16

fluid in the fold, but a dryness, maybe

52:19

a thickness of mucus on the

52:21

surface of the fold, and that

52:24

just makes it

52:26

some harder. And there are some other

52:28

factors, I don't know whether some

52:31

of Sophie's colleagues might have experienced this, and that

52:34

is you get an enlargement of some of the

52:36

blood vessels within the vocal

52:38

fold as well, and these are more

52:40

likely to rupture at that point, so

52:42

this is vocal fold hemorrhage, something which

52:44

produces a very rapid effect in this

52:46

thing. And effectively, as a result, you

52:48

get bruising, which of course can take

52:51

quite a long time to resolve and

52:53

occasionally leads to the formation of polyps

52:55

and that sort of thing subsequently. In

52:57

the 18th and 19th century,

53:00

it was known, particularly in European opera

53:02

houses, that female singers needed to be

53:04

nurtured, I guess it's because they were

53:06

the team who were in the local

53:09

opera house, and they had grace days

53:11

which they were allowed not to sing.

53:14

Now, of course, the life of a

53:16

singer involves booking

53:20

venues and being booked for

53:22

performance months and months, even

53:24

years in advance, it's very difficult to

53:27

manage that. And then we

53:29

have this problem of perhaps singing

53:31

teachers, even if you do know,

53:33

maybe being embarrassed about talking on

53:36

these matters which are absolutely central

53:39

to female singers. Well, one person

53:41

who wasn't afraid to speak out about it was

53:43

you, Sophie, you took to Twitter and you put

53:45

that message out there. Give us a sense of

53:47

the responses that you got. Well,

53:50

it was incredible, really, I had a

53:52

huge response both on and off social

53:54

media. Many people emailed

53:56

me and sent me private messages as well. said,

54:00

this is exactly what happened to me.

54:02

Thank you for talking about it.

54:04

Somebody said, I'm at a

54:07

concert right now. About to go on. Thank you

54:09

so much. I felt like bursting into tears

54:11

when I read this, because this is what I'm

54:13

going through right now. And I feel and it gives me

54:15

strength knowing that I'm not the only one and that

54:17

maybe we can start talking about it and people might

54:19

understand a bit more. And what

54:21

helps you? What would help would be speaking

54:24

to the conductor beforehand and saying,

54:26

I might not be my best today. Somehow

54:29

getting it out there, maybe by

54:31

writing it on Twitter or

54:33

your social media so that if people

54:35

there thinking, why is she not

54:37

singing her best? Why is he or she not singing their

54:40

best? They might be able to look us up and

54:42

then we've written the little statement saying today I've started

54:44

my period. Or I'm

54:46

not. Essentially, that

54:48

that's to be honest. Yeah.

54:50

Yeah. And I wonder from a

54:52

medical perspective, Alan, are there any

54:55

solutions to this? Well, not if

54:57

you are undergoing regular

54:59

menstrual cycles. It can help.

55:02

Things can be stabilised if

55:04

people are taking contraception. But again, that

55:07

varies in terms of how acceptable it

55:09

is to singers in terms of the

55:11

vocal effects, apart from

55:13

anything else. There have been

55:15

some studies, obviously, it's very difficult to have

55:17

a study where you have high level singers.

55:19

But when this has been done in non

55:22

singers, there are indications that for some of

55:24

these, it can increase voice

55:27

stability. The thing

55:29

about any form of medication is it's

55:31

exceptionally important to discuss this with the

55:33

clinician because in the past, there have

55:35

been some pill formulations which had components

55:39

that were like male hormones. That's not

55:41

generally true now. But

55:43

it does raise another really important

55:45

issue. And that is that there

55:47

are some medications which do use

55:49

androgens, these male hormones, and they're

55:51

used for things like back centrometriosis

55:53

or after hysterectomy.

55:56

And those can have dramatic and sometimes irreversible

55:58

effects. So there are many things

56:00

which I think is very important that

56:02

singers know about in terms of the

56:04

effects of hormones and the vice. Sophie

56:08

I'm hoping that your conductor or

56:10

conductors are listening. It would

56:12

be wonderful. Also my husband is a

56:14

conductor and he thought it was incredibly interesting

56:16

that this phenomenon that we don't really talk

56:18

about either that women who work

56:20

together often become in tune as

56:23

it were with each other and

56:26

so we all are on our periods at the

56:28

same time. He conducts you know orchestras

56:30

with a huge number of women in them

56:32

and choruses, opera choruses and you

56:34

know maybe it's useful for them to know that there

56:37

might be a certain day, a certain few days where half

56:40

of the people that they are working with start in

56:42

their periods and they might be

56:44

feeling credible pain, incredible tiredness. Sophie

56:47

Bevan and Dr. Alan Watson from the University

56:49

of Cardiff is also important to stress that

56:52

this also affects women going through the menopause

56:54

as well. That's all from me.

56:56

Do join Claire McDonald on Monday. She'll be speaking

56:58

to the author of a new study into maternal

57:00

suicide. If this is something that has affected you

57:03

please feel free to get in touch with the

57:05

programme. In fact you can do so by any

57:07

subject you'd like us to discuss on the programme

57:09

in the future by emailing our website. Do enjoy

57:11

the rest of your weekend. Hold

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up. What was that? Boring. No

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