0:28

Winning is your guide to making

0:30

it in business . Join our award-winning

0:32

host and entrepreneur , Mackenzie Kilshaw

0:35

, and special guests in casual conversations

0:38

that will educate and inspire you

0:40

on your business journey . Winning

0:42

will help you learn the hard lessons the easy

0:44

way , with guidance from celebrated

0:46

entrepreneurs and business leaders . It's

0:49

fun , it's informative , it's

0:51

winning .

0:53

Hello , welcome to Winning . I am your host

0:55

, Mackenzie Kilshaw , and today's guest

0:57

is Jessica Willis . Hi , Jess .

0:59

Hello , how are you ? I'm

1:01

great , how are you ?

1:02

yo Good . I'm really glad

1:04

that you're on today . You know , before

1:06

we record these episodes , we usually

1:08

talk for three to five minutes

1:10

. Jess and I , I think , have been talking for like 20

1:12

. I'm like we should have hit record a long time ago

1:15

, but I feel like I already

1:17

know you and we really just met .

1:19

Yeah , I feel the same way , that's

1:22

great . That's a true host

1:24

right .

1:25

Well , thank you . So Jess is a

1:27

relationship-driven entrepreneur who

1:30

thrives in the fast-paced world of

1:32

executive and professional recruitment

1:34

. As a trusted partner and consultant

1:36

with Summit Search Group , she

1:38

headhunts and it goes way farther

1:40

, beyond job placements , which I can tell you because

1:42

we just talked about that , and

1:44

it is a strategic process that fuels

1:47

business growth while ensuring candidates

1:49

feel valued , engaged and inspired

1:52

in their new roles . Jess

1:54

has tons of experience in industries

1:56

like tech , finance , insurance , construction

1:58

, and she is

2:01

also got her designation

2:03

of Certified Talent Management Professional

2:05

, which I think that sounds very , very

2:08

like fancy . It's a fancy title .

2:09

It makes me sound more important .

2:11

I really like it , and that's from the Canadian

2:13

HR Academy , so that's

2:15

cool . I love that title though . A Talent Management

2:17

Professional Certified . It's fantastic

2:20

. Well , thanks

2:22

, Jess . I'm really excited . We've never

2:24

had anyone like you on the podcast

2:27

before , so I'm excited to

2:29

bring some

2:31

value to people that are listening

2:33

about employees

2:35

and recruiting people and finding the

2:37

right people for your business

2:40

, and I think that's so important for success

2:42

.

2:43

Amazing , my favorite thing to talk about . So

2:46

we're aligned .

2:48

That's awesome . So

2:50

maybe just in your own words how

2:53

did you get here , how did you get to be

2:55

a recruiter ? And

2:58

you have your own business too . Just kind

3:00

of give us a little bit of background , a little bit more about you

3:02

.

3:03

Absolutely so . How did

3:05

I get here ? I graduated

3:07

with a commerce degree , which is

3:10

really great because it sets you up for the business

3:12

world . But , as you know , you

3:14

have a million options . So

3:16

when I graduated I knew I was interested

3:18

in marketing , but I was also interested

3:21

in HR so it was really kind of I could go

3:23

either way . As someone who just graduated

3:25

. I did end

3:27

up joining a telecommunications company

3:30

as an advertising planner

3:32

, which was such an awesome

3:34

gig to start with . In that

3:36

role I worked with marketing managers . I also

3:39

worked with agencies , so I was essentially

3:41

the middle person . So I got to understand

3:43

the work of an external

3:45

vendor and the stressors

3:48

and the pace there . But I also

3:50

got to work with a really large corporation

3:52

where I was

3:54

able to really see how people grow and

3:56

navigate in their own careers there

3:59

. After a few years

4:01

of being an ad planner which was also

4:03

so fun I got to work on commercials

4:05

and radio ads and

4:09

we're kind of chatting about newspapers before

4:11

this podcast I started , but I remember being so

4:13

stressed out , waiting for the local

4:15

newspaper to come to make sure everything

4:17

was felt properly and

4:20

I didn't make any mistakes .

4:21

It's like the Stone Ages now when we're talking

4:23

about the newspaper , but it's so true

4:25

, that's what we used 20

4:27

years ago .

4:28

There was no delete or edit

4:31

or anything there . But

4:33

oddly enough I actually reached out to a recruiter

4:35

because as someone that was

4:38

working for this large company , I

4:40

understood my trajectory

4:42

there . But I was really curious , having

4:45

been with that company for three years , what some

4:47

other external opportunities look like and

4:50

I knew I was really interested in continuing

4:52

with marketing . So

4:55

when I reached out to them my entire

4:57

intent was really just long

4:59

term . I wanted to create a relationship

5:01

, I wanted to share certain

5:03

jobs I'd be interested in . I was not

5:06

actively looking whatsoever

5:08

and I kind of said in the next three

5:10

years these are some of the goals I have . If

5:12

anything comes up , let me know . As

5:15

luck would have it , about six months later

5:17

they did find me an opportunity , which

5:20

was a people leadership

5:22

opportunity . So a bit of imposter

5:24

syndrome kind of snuck in there

5:26

. But the hiring manager

5:28

at the time honestly

5:31

is responsible for

5:33

my career really taking a turn

5:35

. He saw something in me that quite

5:38

frankly I still wasn't really

5:40

aware of and hired

5:42

me to lead a team of

5:44

three people at that time who

5:46

had decades of experience

5:48

. So I was younger than everyone

5:51

, with no experience in the industry

5:53

and no experience leading

5:55

a team . That would have

5:57

been intimidating . It was the most

5:59

intimidating . But when I started

6:02

, one of the things I decided was please

6:04

don't call me the sales and marketing manager

6:06

, call me the sales and marketing lead . I

6:09

want to earn respect of my team . I want

6:11

to understand the industry and then I will grow

6:13

into that role , which I did

6:15

, and continued and built up the

6:17

team from I think it was

6:19

three to 15 people in

6:22

the course of eight years . It

6:25

was an amazing job with

6:27

a great organization that

6:29

I respect so much still

6:31

today and , honestly , I do some work with them

6:33

as well , which is always really rewarding

6:35

. But there came a time following

6:38

I think it was my second mat leave

6:40

where I had this feeling

6:42

where I just wasn't connecting and collaborating

6:44

one-on-one with people as

6:47

much as I could . As you grow in your career

6:49

and add levels that support

6:51

you , you lose some of that one-on-one

6:53

time and

6:55

I certainly explored options internally

6:57

and timing is everything . There

7:00

really wasn't anything there , so I

7:02

decided I was going to reach out to a recruiter

7:04

in the city just to get his sense on the

7:06

market and what he was seeing

7:08

and different jobs out there

7:10

, just from a curiosity standpoint . In

7:14

that meeting I think we sat

7:16

together for half hour and by

7:18

the end of the meeting he said I think you'd be a great

7:20

fit for our team . I

7:22

was so shocked .

7:24

I was like well , I don't have an HR

7:26

background .

7:27

He said well , we're marketers , we market

7:29

opportunities , we market candidates

7:31

, and I think that could be something that you'd

7:33

really enjoy , given what you've

7:36

really described could be a potential

7:38

gap right now , and

7:40

I essentially got in that elevator

7:43

to go home and knew right away that that's really

7:45

what I wanted . So I've been with

7:47

some at Search Group for the last five years

7:49

A little different

7:51

in being an external

7:53

team member , but an extension

7:55

of a business instead of grooming

7:58

and hiring your own team but

8:00

I really , really enjoy working in different

8:02

industries , meeting a lot of people , learning

8:05

about brand new roles every day

8:07

and really becoming

8:10

an expert on how to find people that would be

8:12

best suited for those roles .

8:14

Yeah , that's such a cool journey because you

8:17

kind of had two points where you

8:20

had an opportunity that wasn't probably

8:22

what you saw yourself in , but look how

8:24

awesome it's worked out for you it

8:26

did , absolutely yeah

8:28

, I'm really lucky . That's cool , and

8:31

tell us a little bit more about recruiting

8:33

. I think we were talking

8:35

at the before we started recording

8:38

and you kind of talked about how you're kind

8:40

of like a real estate agent with supply and demand

8:42

. I thought that was so interesting

8:44

because I think back of myself

8:46

as an employer

8:48

. I was always , you know , when

8:50

you're looking for something , you're just looking

8:53

for a person , but

8:55

you didn't have that other side where

8:57

, oh , I have somebody that I think might

9:00

want to work here . I should approach

9:02

them right . So just kind of give us

9:04

a little bit more info on that .

9:06

For sure . So and I guess just

9:08

a quick comment before I jump in on that

9:10

it is definitely a

9:12

world of who you know , but I

9:14

think when people use

9:16

that phrase it's almost

9:18

like , well , I don't know people , I'm

9:21

not fortunate , like I don't

9:23

get this opportunity . The

9:25

way I look at it is you

9:27

need to create your own path and

9:29

find ways to find the right

9:31

people . You have to advocate

9:34

for yourself . You really have to

9:36

kind of get in there , ask the right

9:38

questions and then those opportunities

9:41

will present themselves . But

9:43

there's so many clients that I will

9:45

work with and they're like hey , I'm thinking about

9:47

hiring someone

9:49

that will manage all

9:52

of our creative materials and

9:54

come up with new strategies and

9:56

maybe start a podcast for our company

9:58

. What do you think of that ? And

10:00

then right away , I know that's a plan

10:02

of theirs and I can start passively

10:04

looking and thinking about people that might fit

10:06

that . So , outside of you know

10:08

, what I'm about to share is our kind of

10:11

regular process . I'm also

10:13

used many times as a consultant

10:15

, because I do have that network

10:17

and I do understand how different types

10:20

of organizations work , whether

10:22

you're a startup or a nonprofit

10:24

or a larger company , and

10:27

then I can get a sense of really

10:29

what the fit is . But overall , with

10:32

Summit Search Group , our mission as

10:34

consultants is to really serve

10:36

as partners to the organizations that

10:38

we work with for our valued clients

10:41

. We're committed

10:43

to developing and delivering

10:46

permanent solutions . And

10:48

so we approach our vetting and headhunting

10:50

process in the passive

10:52

and active markets . And what that

10:54

means is , you know , passive being people

10:56

who are full engaged in their jobs , they're

10:59

not actively looking , they're happy . And

11:01

then those that are at a point right now where

11:03

they're like , okay , I'm active , you know , I'd like to

11:06

get moving on a new opportunity . Our

11:09

primary responsibility as

11:11

consultants to our clients is

11:14

to streamline recruitment of

11:16

exceptional talent , so really

11:18

bridging aspirations of candidates

11:21

that are looking for these fresh or open

11:23

to these fresh opportunities with

11:25

the needs of our clients to search

11:27

for outstanding

11:30

future employees . So

11:32

we really shoulder

11:34

, I would say , the extensive responsibilities

11:37

of the sourcing and the strategic

11:39

marketing of an opportunity , the

11:41

vetting , the conducting of initial

11:44

interviews , asking the tough questions

11:46

that sometimes are a little awkward for employers

11:48

to ask , you know , whether it's about

11:50

work environment or compensation

11:53

or vacation or just general

11:55

current dissatisfaction

11:57

with an employer that a lot of people

12:00

wouldn't ever bring up in a formal interview

12:02

.

12:03

Yes especially in your city

12:06

or in your area , because

12:08

who knows that person

12:10

? That knows that person right . And

12:12

that's a hard thing for people because you

12:15

don't want to go into an interview and

12:17

someone says why are you leaving ? Well

12:19

, I don't agree with the company's doing , and

12:22

then that gets back to the company where

12:24

, if someone like yourself , you're not going to reveal

12:26

that information .

12:28

No , and I always discourage candidates

12:30

doing that when they're in an interview . And

12:32

so my job , I guess , is to

12:35

I don't want to say I'm a therapist

12:37

, because absolutely not qualified

12:39

but to hear from you

12:41

, you know what is missing

12:44

or a gap , and then digging a little deeper

12:46

to realize the core issue , which then

12:48

I can share with the client , because it really

12:50

, most of the time , has nothing specific

12:53

to do about a person . It's something that's

12:55

missing that we need to find so

12:57

I can find a different way of

13:00

getting that information and bringing

13:02

it to my clients , because , at the end of the day , if

13:04

my clients can provide an opportunity

13:06

that matches that , there's no sense in us

13:08

moving forward , you know , with that candidate

13:11

, because we really need alignment . So

13:14

once I have this shortlist for my clients

13:17

so they're not looking at resumes , they're not

13:19

reaching out to people I'm doing all of that

13:21

. What we do is we compile

13:23

it , we put together candidate profiles

13:26

, I work with candidates , you know , on

13:28

how they want to be presented and what they want me

13:30

to share . So there's a lot of

13:32

transparency in my process . And

13:34

then ultimately , once that's presented

13:37

, it's up to my clients to choose

13:39

who they'd like to interview and

13:41

at the end , who they'd like to hire . They're

13:43

there for support on both sides . So

13:45

much like your real estate comment . I'm

13:48

working with the buyers and the sellers and

13:50

you know of course

13:52

I want something to end well

13:55

, but for me , long

13:57

term permanency is

13:59

most important . So , awkwardly

14:01

, sometimes I'm talking candidates

14:03

out of moving forward with

14:05

a job because something they've said , or

14:08

I can tell that they're nervous about

14:10

something . I know it's not going to be a long term

14:12

fit . On the other side , sometimes

14:15

I'm , you know , coaching

14:17

and working with my clients to really

14:19

remind them of the skill sets that we're

14:21

looking for that perhaps

14:24

within our process we veered away from

14:26

because we found something else that

14:28

we were really excited about . So

14:30

every project has a different length

14:33

time frame timeframe

14:35

, but I'm really grateful

14:37

for all the people that I

14:39

get to work with each and every day .

14:41

Yeah , and it's really to me

14:44

, finding the right people

14:46

. It goes both ways . But finding

14:49

the right person for your company and

14:52

, on the other side , finding the right company

14:55

for you is so

14:57

important because I've

14:59

talked with this lots before but your

15:01

job just isn't your job . You don't just go

15:03

to your job and then you go home at five

15:05

and that's the end of it . You're one person

15:08

. So if what's

15:10

happening at your job or as the

15:12

employer , what's happening with an employee

15:14

isn't working , that

15:16

causes problems everywhere . Right

15:18

, it's not just that you can turn it off because

15:20

you left work . That's not how life works

15:23

?

15:23

No , and we spend so much

15:25

time with the people that surround

15:28

ourselves during the day so for

15:30

a lot of my clients when I can tell they're

15:32

really protecting a culture and

15:35

maybe someone seems easier to

15:38

hire if that makes sense . I've

15:40

already had some flags and I know

15:42

that my candidate won't

15:45

be happy long term because

15:47

X , y and Z and then ultimately

15:49

my client won't be happy because this will

15:51

be an employee that's not engaged

15:53

and potentially disgruntled and

15:55

still looking for something new . So

15:58

I really take the process seriously

16:00

and I think

16:02

when I go to a party and someone's really

16:04

curious about what I do , I really

16:06

say I'm a corporate matchmaker . I need to

16:08

make sure everybody's happy , everybody's

16:10

getting their boxes checked off , and

16:13

that's really where we see more alignment

16:15

. Yeah .

16:17

And intrinsically for you . That's what

16:19

brings you fulfillment , right

16:21

, because you want people to be

16:23

happy in their position and you

16:25

want the employer to be happy because that's a

16:28

reflection of you , absolutely

16:30

, yeah . Yeah , I think

16:32

there's nothing worse than having someone in the job

16:35

that isn't a good fit . I can

16:37

say that as an employer and

16:39

an employee right , you have

16:41

experience on both ends . That's really valuable

16:43

. Exactly , and I think it's

16:46

really funny . Before

16:48

I became an entrepreneur

16:51

, I had a few jobs and

16:53

I had a similar path that

16:55

you had . I had a commerce degree with HR and marketing

16:58

. I worked for a telephone company , but

17:03

my previous job that I had before

17:05

I started my own business , I

17:08

had the worst manager

17:10

. I'll just put her out there . It was not

17:13

a good experience . No one liked this

17:15

person To

17:17

upper management . She

17:19

had a show about her . I'll

17:21

say that they thought she was

17:23

fantastic , but her employees were

17:25

not . Nobody was happy with her and

17:28

my theory , going

17:30

into any male business , was I'm

17:32

going to be the exact opposite of her

17:34

. And not that I need

17:37

my staff to love me , because that's also not

17:39

the way to go . You don't want to just

17:42

be a people pleaser to your staff , but

17:44

there are so many things that I'm like I'm not

17:46

going to do this because that was done

17:48

to me and this is how I felt right

17:51

and I think those experiences

17:53

really helped me along the way , even

17:55

if they were negative .

17:57

I know I was going to say

18:00

I think when someone

18:02

goes through something like that and is

18:04

forced to do a bit of soul searching

18:06

and figure out what's

18:08

happening or what didn't work , it's

18:11

really important . And , honestly , when

18:13

I have a potential client that reaches out

18:15

to me and we talk about the

18:17

role that we're looking to fill , one

18:19

of the first questions I ask is why

18:23

is this role vacant ? Is this new ? Did

18:25

they leave ? Why did they leave

18:27

? Did you do an exit interview ? What

18:29

did they feel was missing ? Because

18:31

any step in that direction will

18:33

really help me find a

18:36

better fit for that position . So

18:38

maybe they laughed because

18:41

they really needed something remote and this

18:43

company wasn't able to offer that . Well , that's easy

18:45

. Then we're just very clear on how we market the opportunity

18:47

. Maybe they

18:49

were honestly just in the wrong job and

18:52

the right company . So

18:54

we've been learning about is it skills

18:56

? Is it culture ? Is it just stock

18:58

rate fit ? Is it circumstance

19:01

? That's really helpful when

19:03

we're helping someone find their next

19:05

step as well .

19:06

For sure , and for a lot of people

19:09

that are just starting out . So , entrepreneurs

19:12

, small business owners , depending

19:14

what you have lots of times

19:16

you start with yourself and then you have to add people

19:19

, or you need to start with a group of people

19:21

, because we need some sales and

19:23

marketing , or we need a tech person

19:25

, or whatever it is . So what

19:27

is your best advice for people

19:30

so that they can find

19:33

the best fit as

19:35

we just talked about and the most

19:37

qualified person for the job , because it's really

19:39

going to be a mix of both .

19:43

It's a great question and I mean the answer to

19:45

that can change , but I would say

19:47

in general , to

19:50

truly stand out as the most qualified

19:52

candidate , I would say it's essential

19:54

to approach the opportunity with

19:57

diligence and thoroughness

19:59

, and what I mean by that is

20:01

ask the question

20:04

about culture , ask the

20:06

questions about history If you're not working with

20:08

a recruiter who's going to provide

20:10

you this information as a candidate

20:12

. Ask the questions of the company

20:15

. See where there's alignment , where their values

20:17

are at . Show

20:19

up , do research . There's

20:22

so many interviews when I was a hiring manager

20:24

. I'm not sure about yourself , but people

20:26

would come in for the interview and I'd say what do you know

20:29

about our company ? And they'd say I'm hoping you'll

20:31

tell me today . Nothing really

20:33

. They could have rattled off googled

20:36

and rattled off one sentence and

20:38

that would have just been satisfactory

20:40

and we could have moved on .

20:42

I had someone say nothing really and

20:46

I said okay , and

20:48

I mean really , I just wanted to say

20:50

I think this is the end of this . Yeah

20:52

, I think we're done here . Yeah , but

20:55

same thing I mean as an employer

20:58

. When someone sends me their resume , I

21:00

oh , I have a mutual friend I asked

21:03

about you know , or there's things that you do

21:05

as the employer , so you should do the same thing as

21:07

the person looking at the company .

21:09

For sure , absolutely yeah . And

21:13

as the employer , so as the entrepreneur

21:15

and the small business owner , in terms

21:17

of finding a perfect fit for the role , I

21:19

think , especially if you're starting small

21:21

and have that culture that you want

21:23

to protect , you really need to

21:25

look at qualities like character , work

21:28

ethic , professionalism . If

21:30

this is going to be a face of

21:32

your brand , you need to

21:34

have that trust established

21:37

, that likeability , very

21:39

, very naturally , because this is your

21:41

baby and you're protecting it . I

21:44

think also , someone

21:46

who just has a general curiosity

21:49

to them asks questions . That

21:51

carries an immense weight because they

21:54

too , with these questions , are really evaluating

21:57

things that are important to them and

21:59

ultimately it shows that they

22:01

really want to make the best decision for

22:03

themselves as well . They're not just

22:05

looking for a new gig or

22:08

something to do for the next

22:10

little while , they're really evaluating

22:12

their career quite carefully . There

22:15

have been some instances where I've had

22:18

clients that have had smaller business and

22:20

perhaps they hire someone

22:22

or perhaps they're looking

22:24

for someone with strong technical

22:27

skills , but everyone that we

22:29

meet really just doesn't have the passion

22:31

and fire that my client has . So then I'll

22:33

kind of go back to them and say , listen , we

22:35

have some more junior technical

22:38

skills , a lot of people willing to learn

22:40

. But I think we should really focus on

22:42

character and how they present themselves

22:45

and how . They've already come to me

22:47

as a recruiter and said these

22:49

three things I don't have experience in , but

22:52

in my first 60 or 90 days . Here's

22:54

how I'm going to tackle that and here's how I'm going

22:56

to prove myself . Those are the people

22:59

when your company is small and you're

23:01

looking to grow and scale , you

23:03

need on your side .

23:05

I agree . So really , sit

23:08

is probably outweighs

23:11

skill at that time

23:13

, right , and that's crazy because

23:15

most people are probably listening , thinking what . But

23:19

I agree it's easier to help someone

23:21

learn something than it is

23:23

. Who they are is who they are , that's

23:27

not changing .

23:28

Another interesting thing that I've seen too , especially

23:31

with startups , is someone might hire

23:33

, let's

23:36

say , the head

23:38

of strategy . This

23:42

person breathes

23:44

this company . They are passionate

23:47

, they're likable , it's their favorite

23:49

thing to talk about , they are 100%

23:51

an ambassador . But maybe

23:54

they're not great at their job and

23:56

that doesn't mean they're not great for the company

23:58

. That might just mean that specific

24:01

role isn't a good fit . So

24:03

sometimes I almost turn

24:05

down business . It sounds very strange

24:08

, but I'll have someone reach out to me and say we have this

24:10

person in this role . They're not performing

24:12

. We're really sad we're going to have to let

24:14

them go . And then I'm kind of doing

24:17

some of my own coaching and counseling to say

24:19

, well , what are they good at and is there

24:21

a way that you can keep them ? Is , to lose

24:23

an employee is a lot , whereas

24:25

if you can kind of split their

24:27

role up and have them focus on a different

24:29

area and then maybe move

24:31

this over into a different basket

24:34

, sometimes that can be helpful .

24:36

Yeah , that's a really good point and I think you're

24:38

right . Especially in our

24:41

world today , lots of environments

24:43

of business are fast , fast

24:46

changing , and fast , I'm

24:48

saying before . I'm taking a digital marketing

24:51

course through York University because that

24:53

wasn't even a thing when I went to university

24:56

. So there's so many things

24:58

that change and evolve and maybe

25:00

what a person is doing today in

25:03

six months is kind

25:05

of past them or they're

25:07

not great at it . But that

25:09

person that they are and the employee

25:11

that they are is fantastic for you

25:13

. Exactly , yeah

25:15

, and it's way better off to find them

25:18

things that they are good at and that they

25:20

enjoy doing and find someone else for the other stuff

25:22

. Absolutely , yeah

25:24

, that's awesome . Are

25:27

there certain characteristics

25:30

or qualities that you

25:32

should look at when you're hiring someone

25:34

? We kind of touched on that a little bit , but

25:36

is there like kind of a top

25:38

few that just make

25:40

someone a really great

25:42

person to have on your team ?

25:45

Yeah , so certainly someone who

25:47

has a general curiosity about

25:50

them . I think , especially if

25:52

you are a smaller business , you want

25:55

someone that will bring new ideas , be

25:57

very proactive in doing some

25:59

research and someone who

26:02

, like I said , really lives and

26:04

breathes the company . I

26:07

think when you get to a larger organization

26:09

those things are great , but

26:12

ultimately at that point there's a lot of other

26:14

people that might be steering

26:16

that ship as well . So

26:19

I don't want to say it's less important , but it

26:21

doesn't have as heavy of a weight as

26:23

when you're a smaller business . Certainly

26:28

someone that at a first impression

26:30

you feel could be also

26:32

a really great ambassador for your business

26:34

. Often when

26:36

I do intakes and

26:39

so what is that ? I meet with a

26:41

client and they'll share a little

26:43

bit about the position Each and

26:45

every time I put them on the spot

26:47

to share why they're still with this company

26:49

, because nothing is

26:52

better than social proof

26:54

and a testimonial from

26:56

a real person . I think it's great

26:58

if I share with a candidate . They have such a strong

27:00

culture . On Fridays they have potlucks

27:03

. This week they all go volunteering

27:05

. It's great , I share . Lindsay

27:08

, who's a hiring manager , said

27:10

there's no way she could leave because every time

27:13

they complete a project . She's so excited

27:15

to see it evolve and see

27:17

it grow and see what happens next

27:19

. That's the social proof

27:21

. So you want someone that

27:24

can be speaking in a very positive

27:26

and very genuine way that's

27:29

all true about your company , because

27:31

these are the people that will get others to

27:33

stay , to be retained in

27:35

the company and also to

27:37

be in that future

27:39

lineup of people saying I'd love to work

27:42

with a company like yours .

27:44

Yeah , that's awesome . I think too

27:46

, just a little nugget I got

27:48

out of there was on the flip side . I

27:51

have not had a job interview for probably

27:54

15 years . It's been a long time . But

27:57

I remember fresh out of university

27:59

and those first few years thinking

28:01

I have to be just ultra professional

28:04

and very polished . I

28:07

don't know that I let my true self

28:10

come out . I'm very outgoing and I'm very

28:12

talkative . I think it's because

28:14

I was like well , I want to put my best

28:17

face forward . Probably

28:19

that was a detriment .

28:22

It can be . I think

28:24

you want to be able to demonstrate

28:26

who you are as a human being because

28:29

on day one , you want to feel

28:31

comfortable at work . You also

28:33

want to work with a company that respects

28:35

who you are . When

28:38

we put together candidate packages

28:40

for our clients , I don't really

28:42

talk about personal stuff as much

28:44

, but I do make it a little

28:46

more personal than achievement

28:49

focus . The achievements are great but

28:51

, as an example say , in

28:54

her tenure with this company , Mackenzie

28:57

was able to increase

28:59

conversion of customers

29:01

by X percent , which she shares

29:03

was one of her proudest moments because

29:06

she worked so hard and she was able to

29:08

change things in the most

29:10

dramatic way . What was most important to her

29:12

is that her customers felt seen

29:15

and heard and valued . That's

29:17

more the personal side that people

29:19

companies , I should say buy

29:22

into , because they want someone who

29:25

cares and feels proud and feels

29:27

intrinsically motivated as well

29:29

.

29:30

For sure . Another thing

29:32

I just thought about too . I don't even have it down

29:34

here , but it's probably beneficial

29:37

to do multiple

29:39

. We'll say interviews , but whatever

29:41

that is , meetings would have you with a person

29:44

, you really get a feel for them .

29:47

One of my clients . This is probably my favorite

29:50

structure . They

29:52

had a formal interview in

29:54

an office setting , asked a lot of the

29:56

behavioral and situational questions

29:58

, Maybe the second interview

30:01

, if there was one , and it was a creative

30:03

role . They invited them to

30:05

put a quick assignment together or share

30:07

their portfolio or talk about

30:09

what their strategic plan could be in three

30:12

slides , something quick and easy . Then

30:14

the third , which is my favorite

30:16

, is meeting them in

30:18

a neutral setting , whether it's for breakfast

30:21

or coffee or lunch . That's

30:24

when our guard comes down . We're

30:26

not in a stuffy formal setting

30:28

, we're eating . We're

30:30

just chatting about our weekends or our

30:32

day . It's less stressful

30:35

for the candidate , so

30:37

you're able to see how they

30:39

ultimately would be day to

30:41

day . Not everyone interviews

30:43

well . Sometimes

30:45

someone will be incredible

30:48

on paper and my meeting with them went

30:50

so well but they get in a little

30:52

more of an intimidating setting and

30:55

they freeze right up . But

30:57

then they didn't answer the questions , they

30:59

weren't able to really prove themselves

31:01

because it was a situation

31:04

that really didn't lend itself to that . I

31:06

love an informal meeting to

31:08

really finalize that decision at the end

31:10

.

31:11

That is really great advice Backtracking

31:14

a little bit before you get to the interview

31:17

or the meeting or

31:20

from the employer side . But what

31:22

are some things that really

31:25

set people apart on their

31:27

resume or CV ? Is it resume

31:29

or CV now ? Because I feel like I say resume

31:31

and I'm so old school , but

31:33

CV is a different

31:36

format .

31:38

I would say it's still resume . When

31:41

I meet with a candidate and I don't have

31:43

a job that fits with what they're looking

31:45

for , I always try and leave

31:47

them with some sort of advice . Often

31:50

I'll say let's pull up here , link it in and go

31:52

through it together . I love giving feedback

31:54

. I don't create profiles , I don't write

31:57

resumes , but I'm very good at editing

31:59

because I can tell people what I look

32:01

for with resumes

32:04

. My latest

32:06

advice it's not popular

32:08

.

32:09

It's more work . Well

32:12

, sometimes the not popular is the way you

32:14

got to go , because it's what gets you the results

32:16

, absolutely .

32:18

It's to customize everything

32:21

. I

32:24

think for the last few decades

32:26

the advice has been customize your cover

32:28

letter , make sure you're

32:31

sending it to someone and

32:33

plug in the job name and plug in the

32:35

company name . I'm really surprised how many

32:37

people don't do that . And I got

32:39

somebody else's cover letter

32:41

.

32:43

I'm really interested in working for your company , and

32:45

it's a totally different name .

32:47

All the time . All the time . Yep

32:49

or I'll get . Dear Sir or Madam

32:51

, it's very easy to

32:54

see who posted a job . If

32:56

that's not there , at the very least to

32:58

the hiring manager of X-Position

33:01

. At least you're showing

33:04

that . You've demonstrated that . So

33:07

customize everything . What I mean by that

33:09

is yes , the cover letter absolutely needs

33:11

to be customized . A big suggestion

33:13

I have in resumes

33:15

and cover letters is to use

33:17

some of the lingo that

33:19

was in

33:22

the job ad .

33:23

Yes , yes .

33:25

As an example in sales

33:28

, if a job posting has business development

33:30

as a requirement and someone's

33:33

terminology

33:35

that they use is prospecting , if

33:38

it's a larger company and it

33:40

gets sent to an applicant tracking

33:42

system , it might actually flush out

33:45

that resume , even though they're completely

33:47

qualified , because

33:49

it didn't use the same words . If

33:51

it says sales achievements

33:54

or conversion , try

33:56

and use similar words

33:58

in yours so that it makes sense

34:00

. My job is to review

34:02

resumes and cover letters , but a

34:04

hiring manager that has

34:06

a bottom line to oversee people

34:09

to see strategies planning

34:11

. They don't have time to go line

34:13

by line to see if something makes sense

34:15

. So trying use similar I

34:18

would say verbage . In a cover

34:20

letter I would always say have

34:22

at least one paragraph it could

34:25

be two sentences long on why

34:27

you're interested in that specific company

34:29

. Good job company

34:32

, what you know of them . If

34:35

there are any gaps , if you see a

34:37

posting and you're like , ooh , I don't

34:39

have five years of experience , I have two

34:41

, but I have everything else , talk

34:44

about it , say , as you can see

34:46

, I am a little lighter on the

34:48

experience that you're looking for . However

34:51

, here's some informal

34:53

experience that I've had that really lends itself

34:56

to this role . Or in a volunteer

34:58

capacity , this is what I was overseeing

35:00

, so try and just address

35:02

the elephant in the room . So

35:05

that's the cover letter Resume . I still

35:08

think you should customize . We were chatting

35:10

earlier about marketing

35:12

. So if someone had a more general

35:14

background but more recently had

35:16

more specialized experience and they

35:18

were applying for a more specialized

35:20

role , you want to pull

35:23

out specialized experience . You want to get metrics

35:25

in there that really align

35:28

with what the company is looking for . As

35:30

an example , I

35:33

was working on an email marketing manager

35:35

opportunity , very focused

35:37

on open rates and conversions and

35:39

very metrics focused

35:41

on email and content . I

35:44

had someone who was a director of marketing

35:46

applied for the position , but

35:49

all of their experience that they had on their resume

35:51

was really focused on newspaper

35:54

and out-of-home ads

35:56

and social media , so

35:58

it didn't really lend itself to the role at all . Now

36:01

this person reached out to me directly and

36:03

said I was really surprised that you didn't

36:05

call me about it , because I've x , y and

36:07

zed experience with email marketing campaigns , so

36:10

that's exactly what I needed to hear .

36:12

But sometimes timing isn't on your side .

36:17

So take the time . If you're really

36:20

excited about a job , take the time

36:22

, use the language , customize

36:25

it , share with passion why

36:28

you think it's a great opportunity and

36:31

share the achievements

36:33

that lend itself to the role .

36:36

That is fantastic advice and I think as

36:38

the employer looking

36:40

at that . Let's say you got 10

36:43

, just to say 10 resumes

36:45

and six people

36:47

have term Adam and

36:49

just a general copy-paste

36:52

thing and four have this

36:54

. I bet you those six are filed

36:57

under G for garbage .

36:58

Yeah , right that . And also

37:01

you know when you see a posting

37:03

. I realize not everyone would know what Summit Search

37:05

Group is , but if you're going

37:08

to apply to a company , maybe

37:10

take a look at who they are . So often

37:12

I get cover letters . Dear

37:14

Sir or Madam , I'm so

37:16

excited about the

37:19

warehouse manager opportunity Summit Search

37:21

SummitSearch Group . And

37:23

it Summit Search with SummitSearch Group , it's with a

37:26

client of ours and I'm polite , I'll respond

37:28

and say listen , it's not with us , we're a recruitment agency

37:30

.

37:32

Yeah , it's with Summit Haircare or

37:35

Hair in the hair industry . Yeah

37:37

, exactly , oh boy . Yeah

37:40

, I think , as the employer , when

37:42

you get that , that

37:45

should be one of the things that you're really looking

37:47

at on the resume , not just their experience

37:49

, but , like you say , that

37:52

shows that they're really interested because they

37:54

took the time to look at your

37:56

company . They took the time to look

37:58

at the job and say , hey , I would be good at this

38:00

job because of these things . And

38:03

I also really like when you said to

38:05

kind of own up to the things that

38:08

you didn't really hit on there Because

38:11

, yeah , maybe I don't have as much experience

38:13

as you're looking for , but

38:15

I have this , this and this which

38:17

could go along with it , you

38:19

know , or whatever it happens to be as the employer

38:22

, that would really stand out to me .

38:25

Another thing that

38:27

I would suggest , now that we're talking about it

38:29

, is especially

38:31

in the tech world , where there is a lot of terms

38:33

and contract positions . Yeah

38:36

, when someone on their resume has that they

38:38

worked at this tech company as a software

38:40

developer , if it was a term

38:42

or a contract , put that in brackets

38:45

. Yeah , because otherwise it

38:47

might just look like you're hopping around . Yeah

38:49

, someone like me would ask so

38:51

what happened here ? What spurred all these changes

38:54

? And the answer would be oh , they were all contract

38:56

. Great , write it in there , because

38:58

, again , a hiring manager isn't

39:00

going to go through the length to contact

39:03

someone to ask why there's a lot of movement

39:05

in their resume . They'll just assume that

39:07

there's not a lot of longevity

39:09

there and they move on .

39:11

Yeah , and is that a red

39:13

flag for you ? If you're an employer

39:16

looking and you see someone every

39:19

year , every

39:21

other year , has a new job , is

39:24

that something that should concern you ?

39:27

It depends on the resume , it

39:29

depends on the industry , so I

39:33

have worked with clients that aren't really

39:35

as concerned about longevity

39:37

. I think an ideal

39:39

time frame , if

39:42

on average , would

39:44

be two to five years . If

39:46

you were with a company for one year but

39:48

then with the next company for five years , that's

39:51

totally fine . I'm just saying

39:53

, if you're with a company for a year

39:55

and it's not a contract or a term

39:57

, someone like myself again

39:59

would ask so what was missing ? Because

40:02

that could just be someone trying to figure

40:04

out where they fit and

40:06

just who hasn't had an opportunity to

40:08

use their skill sets . And that's when my

40:11

role as a marketer of this profile

40:13

comes in , because I can explain that to

40:16

my clients . But I would say the number

40:18

one red flag for many

40:20

resumes that I send in that maybe

40:22

have a little bit of movement is

40:24

the fact that they've moved around too much and they're just

40:26

not comfortable with that .

40:28

Yeah , and I get it because when

40:31

you take the time and money

40:33

really to , you're investing in someone

40:35

. When you hire them , so you

40:37

take that time , you bring them

40:39

on , you train them and you get

40:41

them to the spot where this

40:43

person is rolling , this is great . And

40:46

then they quit and there's nothing

40:48

worse than that because you've

40:51

just you did the job you were supposed

40:53

to do to have someone in that spot

40:55

and now you have to do it again . Right

40:57

, and I think that for me anyways , if

40:59

I saw they worked at four different

41:01

clothing stores in one year time

41:03

and like , can they not get along with people

41:06

? Do they not listen to instruction or what's

41:08

the problem ? And maybe that's

41:10

just a bias that I had , but it

41:13

would make it so that I didn't interview that

41:15

person .

41:16

And I think it's definitely changing in terms

41:19

of average time , like

41:21

I would say , five years ago , 10 years was

41:23

a great time to be the company . Now

41:26

I think if you've been with a company

41:29

for 20 years

41:31

in the same job

41:33

, that could also be seen as

41:35

a negative too , because if someone

41:37

, if an employer , wants to hire someone that

41:39

wants to grow and develop , maybe

41:42

you do , but if you've had the same job

41:44

, it just shows that you haven't taken the

41:46

initiative to do that . I

41:48

say that everyone has a different circumstance

41:50

. But , on the flip side , if you've worked

41:53

with a company and you've had seven

41:55

jobs in your time there and each one

41:57

shows your evolution

41:59

, I think that's great and

42:01

it just shows that you're constantly picking up new

42:03

skills . Or maybe there's a pivot , maybe

42:06

you went from sales to marketing or marketing to sales

42:08

or to a leadership role or to a specialist

42:11

role . It just shows that

42:13

you're collecting a new set of

42:15

skills and learning a little bit more

42:17

on , really , where you can

42:19

kind of give your stamp

42:21

of value .

42:23

Yeah , for sure , and

42:25

we , when we were talking before

42:28

, this also question came up and I

42:30

hadn't really thought about it much . But

42:33

you said now that

42:35

you get I guess you always have but

42:37

the top questions that you

42:39

get about opportunities where you know

42:41

we often think

42:43

it's compensation , but it's

42:45

not always just compensation . So , as

42:47

an employer , what are

42:49

some questions

42:52

I guess you should be aware about when you're

42:54

looking to hire someone ? On that you

42:57

need to be prepared to answer .

43:00

Absolutely , and you know , as I said to

43:02

you , Mackenzie , this is changing too

43:04

. So five years ago it

43:06

was all about compensation . Then

43:08

, throughout the pandemic , it was about work environment

43:11

, which is still really quite important

43:13

. But you'd be surprised that

43:15

remote or hybrid isn't always

43:17

the most important thing to people

43:20

. And now we've really

43:22

pivoted to amount

43:24

of time , to maybe unplug

43:27

and have some of that personal time . So

43:29

in the last six months I've

43:31

had more offers , you

43:35

know , kind of in limbo because

43:37

of the vacation component , and

43:39

many employers are offering more money

43:41

in lieu of that . But that's not

43:43

the number one driver . Many candidates

43:46

in fact like if I could just get that extra

43:48

week , I could actually take

43:50

a little less money because that time

43:52

is more important to me .

43:55

Yeah , that's such a great point because

43:57

I mean even me as an

43:59

employer . I thought compensation benefit

44:02

, you know you think of those certain things , but

44:04

if that's not what's important to

44:06

someone , it's not going to

44:09

make them want

44:12

to work for you more , right , like

44:15

no , that's such a great point , so thank you for that

44:17

. See , this is where all this visiting before

44:19

we start recording just really comes in handy

44:22

. We learned so much more that we didn't even think

44:24

about . Jess , do you have a most

44:26

important lesson that you can share when

44:29

you're looking for someone for a spot in

44:31

your company ?

44:36

Yes , fire

44:40

fast , fire slow .

44:44

I agree with that 100% , and

44:47

it's okay to get rid of people , isn't it ?

44:49

And it's so heartbreaking and I really

44:51

empathize with some clients

44:54

of mine that are just really

44:56

torn up because this is an employee that's

44:58

been with their organization for a long time

45:00

and there's been so

45:02

many instances where they're like I just can't

45:04

do it and then six

45:07

months later they call me and they will

45:09

say it has just gotten so much worse . We've

45:11

had two other people leave now . So

45:13

I always say you want to have the right

45:15

people on the bus . And if someone

45:18

isn't good on the bus and they're making

45:20

everybody else upset on the bus or

45:22

they're just not allowing the bus to move forward

45:24

. It's

45:27

devastating for people to be let

45:29

go , but it's also a really great

45:31

reminder that not

45:34

everything has to be permanent and they

45:36

will find something else and

45:39

in the most ideal sense it might be

45:41

something that's a better fit for them . And

45:46

then , on the flip side of that , sometimes

45:48

I think you know , someone gets a resume . They're

45:50

like I'll just have a quick call with them and then hire them , and

45:53

then six weeks later they might , you

45:55

know , discover that this person

45:57

just didn't really feel like coming into work a

45:59

lot of the time and that was a requirement

46:02

, right , yeah , you should come to work . I

46:04

say definitely have more than

46:06

one interview . If you're looking at a

46:08

candidate , ideally have one

46:11

more formal , one informal . And

46:14

if you've really exhausted

46:16

your options with a current employee

46:19

and it just doesn't feel right , do

46:21

them the favor and let them go , because

46:24

outside of providing them

46:26

some financial support for

46:29

their life , there's no other favors .

46:30

If you're not being honest , you

46:33

know , I always ask people if

46:35

there is something they wish they had known

46:37

or wish they had known sooner or could tell the younger self . And

46:40

just exactly what you talked about was

46:43

something that I wish that I had known

46:45

years ago when I had my business . Because

46:47

you're right , someone , that's not a good

46:49

fit . It causes other people

46:51

to leave or it causes tension or stress

46:53

in your business which affects everything

46:56

else , and it's

46:59

kind of that . When you said , well , it's hard

47:01

, so people don't like doing it . Letting

47:03

someone go is hard , but

47:05

guess what ? That it's done , your

47:08

problem's gone , right .

47:11

And honestly it's the same when someone's going

47:13

to quit . A part of my process is

47:15

really supporting candidates when they're quitting

47:17

their current role and

47:19

helping them through that , because I think the

47:21

lead up is the worst part and

47:24

once they do it and they've

47:26

disappointed someone , it's

47:28

over . You know there's nothing , nothing

47:30

else that can be done , and there's a very

47:32

tasteful way to resign

47:35

from a company and if

47:37

a hiring manager or if

47:39

a manager doesn't handle it well , it's

47:41

also a really good indicator on

47:43

, you know , just , leadership style as well .

47:46

Yeah , for sure , Jess . Thank you

47:48

so much for being on this . Thank you for having me , I've

47:51

had so much fun . Me too , and

47:53

this is stuff that we don't really talk

47:56

about a lot in business . When

47:58

I had my store , I would talk

48:00

to other friends in my network that had

48:02

businesses and you know you ask them questions

48:04

about this or you maybe hate

48:06

to say it , but complain about an employee and what do I

48:08

do ? Do I let them go ? Oh , I'm

48:11

going to hire this person . Have you heard the

48:13

? You know you ask a lot of your friends , but I

48:15

don't think we talk about this stuff as

48:17

much as we should , and really it's

48:20

essential for your success . So

48:22

thank you for being here and sharing your expertise

48:25

with us . Where can people find you

48:27

.

48:28

So LinkedIn is really where

48:30

I live and breathe . I'm always

48:32

excited to meet new people , so if you'd like to

48:34

connect with me there , it's

48:36

Jessica Willis , if you just search for it and

48:38

again with Summit Search Group , or you can find

48:41

me on our website , summitsearchgroup . com . summitsearchgroupcom

48:45

, and then , if you go to team , you can find

48:47

me and get my email there , and

48:49

then I also have a website

48:51

w . willis . jessica . essica willisca Jessica Willisca .

48:55

Awesome . Thank you so much . I appreciate you

48:57

being on . I have some nuggets here . I'm

48:59

not looking for any staff right now , but you

49:01

never know what's going to happen . But thank

49:03

you so much for being on and everyone that's listening

49:05

. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you

49:07

on the next episode . Thanks for

49:09

listening to Winning . Be sure to subscribe

49:11

to get all of our new episodes . If

49:13

you enjoyed this episode and you'd like

49:15

to help support the podcast , please share

49:18

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49:20

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49:22

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49:24

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49:26

, you can follow Winning Podcast on

49:28

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49:31

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49:35

at Winning a pod inning Winning was created

49:38

and is produced by me , mackenzie

49:40

Kilshaw Mackenzie Music , created by Summer

49:42

Furby , Firby by Seth Armstrong

49:44

. Special thanks to Shauna

49:46

Foster for voicing our opening and

49:49

, of course , a huge thank you to

49:51

this episode's guest . Thanks again

49:53

for listening and I'll see you on the next

49:55

episode .