0:00

The drama and the chaos was

0:04

very interesting at the beginning and very

0:08

intoxicating but over

0:10

the years it's just it's become detrimental.

0:15

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0:17

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0:19

Esther Perel. None of the

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0:31

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holders only. Terms and conditions apply. At

2:00

the time when I meet this couple, they

2:03

have been separated for a few months. But

2:05

this is not the first time they're separating. Their

2:08

relationship has probably been a back and forth

2:11

between Heaven and Hell. We've

2:14

always had a volatile,

2:16

passionate relationship. I

2:19

always said that we love each other and that we can

2:21

hate each other. Moments

2:24

of passion, deep connection,

2:27

and then followed by high conflict,

2:31

negative escalations, massive

2:34

crescendo. For some reason

2:36

I'm on the defensive when I'm hurt. And

2:39

then I do shitty things and I feel even worse. And

2:41

I say stupid shit and

2:44

I'm an even bigger asshole. Fueled

2:46

by reactivity much more than by

2:48

reflectiveness. He has hot, hot,

2:50

hot temper. And I am

2:52

a really stubborn person

2:55

so I have a tendency to push buttons very well.

2:58

And our conversations just can't get tough

3:01

hurting each other. And then the

3:03

only solution to lessen the intensity is

3:05

to take a break. It's like he

3:08

just can't be here, he can't be on

3:10

the energy, he just kind of snaps. And

3:12

I don't know if it's a feeling of

3:15

suffocating or what doesn't matter. And

3:18

so they are caught in these

3:20

repetitive, negative escalations

3:22

that are quite rigid,

3:25

quite repetitive and

3:27

from which they feel they have no

3:29

exit except to leave each time. Whatever

3:32

one of us wants it, we both know that we

3:34

can't keep. We

3:36

feel insane. And

3:38

that is where I meet them. This

3:43

is Where Should We Begin with us, Dara Parel.

3:51

If I was to do a pulse check now.

3:57

I'd say it's about the same in my

3:59

department. Still a lot of behavioral issues between

4:01

us. We both still fall into the same

4:03

habits. Not

4:07

respecting one another. Forgetting

4:10

how to manage our own emotions when

4:12

we speak. Not receiving

4:14

properly or empathetically. Which

4:19

manifests as... Anger.

4:23

Frustration. Harsh words. I

4:28

have a safe place to go to now so that we

4:30

can separate and actually not have to go through that again.

4:33

I have my own apartment. She has the

4:35

house. And what is your involvement with the

4:37

family? I do my best to...

4:39

You have four women there, right? Yes. Your

4:42

wife, your daughter... And

4:44

the other two daughters. And then your daughters that

4:46

you have together. That's a lot of female.

4:49

It is. There's

4:51

a lot being immersed in it too. What's

4:54

that like for you? I mean,

4:57

how do you manage your

4:59

involvement with the family? I

5:01

just do, you know, my duty. I do whatever

5:04

cooking I can. I come, I watch the kids

5:06

while she's out of town. I

5:09

try to... I'm working on trying to live a

5:11

healthy lifestyle. I'm still not there yet. I'm still

5:13

a little distracted. I

5:16

have some degrees of

5:18

depression. So I always

5:20

feel like I've done something wrong at all

5:22

times. You have

5:25

people around you? No, I'm

5:27

pretty isolated. How come? I

5:31

don't know if it's by design or just by nature. I don't really

5:33

like people. Well, maybe

5:35

a couple. You have? Yeah. You're still

5:38

dating your

5:40

friend? Yes, I am. In

5:44

this period of separation, they are both seeing other

5:46

people. And

5:48

this has only added more

5:51

fuel to the file. So

5:57

that's some companion chip and... Not

5:59

really. It's

6:01

a little less isolating. It's a

6:04

little fog light in the distance at times. And

6:08

you have siblings? I do. We don't really

6:10

get to talk about them. You have no contact? No contact. Very

6:13

limited. I was

6:15

basically an only child because my father had two children

6:17

with another mother. I was

6:19

the only child with my mother. We

6:23

moved around a lot. I never got a

6:25

chance to build any long-term relationships with

6:28

any friends. I have no old friends really. I'm

6:32

used to isolation. I'm used to being on my own. You're

6:35

used to it. Is that what you like? I

6:38

don't know any different really. I know when

6:40

I've been in crowds with people for any extended period of time, I

6:42

don't really like it. I'm

6:45

not comfortable. And

6:47

when we met, he had been estranged

6:49

from his daughter for

6:51

two years at that point. So,

6:56

he had left his hometown

6:58

and I

7:03

said, I'm going to marry that guy. You

7:05

said? Mm-hmm. And

7:07

then... You seem to know what you

7:09

want. I'm afraid I do. And quickly. I

7:11

know. I

7:15

always said that he reminded me

7:17

of a beaten dog when

7:19

we first met. And everything

7:21

in terms of interaction

7:24

and coming on too strong. I

7:27

felt like I had my hand out. No

7:30

sudden movements. No big noises.

7:34

Because he was adamant

7:37

that women were

7:40

awful. That

7:42

they led to hurt. But it

7:45

was... I guess that we

7:47

were all sort of Jezebels,

7:50

for lack of a better word. And

7:55

I remember saying to him, because he said,

7:57

all I care about is getting my daughter

7:59

back getting back into her life.

8:01

And I said, so

8:03

why don't you build a life to

8:06

offer her when you see her

8:08

again instead of wandering,

8:11

not putting down any roots, not letting people get

8:13

close to you. Why don't you

8:15

build something for her? And

8:20

over a couple of months,

8:23

he settled into it. And

8:26

then I got pregnant. Why

8:30

did you lose touch with your daughter? It

8:34

was not a healthy relationship with her mother. She

8:37

moved around a lot. She liked to

8:39

withhold visitation if I

8:42

wasn't going to be with her. And

8:44

I just got tired of chasing her around

8:46

and following her, moving after her, trying

8:49

to stay close. And I just had to draw a line because it

8:51

was killing me. The torment of being

8:53

close and then having her taken away and being close and

8:55

having her taken away, I had to stop it. I

8:58

stopped. And I just left my

9:01

situation with her. It

9:04

was a sad time. Pretty

9:07

scarring, really

9:09

painful, a lot of drinking, a

9:11

lot of blackouts. It

9:14

was horrible. But then

9:16

my daughter reached out. So

9:18

we're repairing the damage still and building

9:21

new relationship. And

9:24

she felt comfortable enough to come live with me for the first time

9:26

at 22. But

9:29

if I hear you well, much

9:31

of what happens in your life

9:35

is closeness, cut

9:37

off, explosion. Oh,

9:40

it's a definite pattern. Retreat,

9:42

reconnecting. Yeah. That

9:46

is pretty much the hallmark of your

9:48

relationship. It's always an

9:50

all or nothing and an either or on

9:52

everything. Pretty much. So

9:54

the subject matter doesn't really make

9:57

a difference. You have a pattern. and

10:00

the pattern is, I'll drill you

10:02

down, or you drill me down, I lose

10:05

me, or I lose you, all

10:07

or nothing. In the same way

10:10

that you knew from day one you wanted him, it's

10:12

an all or nothing. Because

10:14

in the good side is what I'm trying to say. We're

10:19

just a few minutes into the session, but it

10:21

also becomes clear that he's not the only one

10:24

who has lived as a survivor. So

10:27

does she. I've

10:31

always been very all or nothing. Partially,

10:36

I think just because of the way my

10:38

attention grabs

10:40

onto things, if it doesn't interest me,

10:44

it's gone. And the drama

10:47

and the chaos was

10:50

very interesting at the beginning, and very

10:54

intoxicating. But over

10:56

the years, it's just become detrimental.

11:01

I don't know. What

11:04

did you think? You

11:06

see the broken or the beaten dog,

11:09

and you say, I'm going to give this

11:11

man a life. I'm going to have him

11:14

want to get up in the morning. I'm

11:16

going to domesticate the lion inside.

11:19

I'm going to give him a raison

11:22

d'être. I'm going to bring

11:24

joy to him. I'm going to show him love.

11:27

I'm going to show him that life is worth living.

11:33

That's a grandiose plan. I

11:35

know. Sometimes

11:39

when a person doesn't feel worthy of love,

11:42

they replace love with being needed.

11:45

If he can't be loved, I will be

11:47

needed. And so she found

11:49

him at a moment when he was desperate

11:52

and desolate, and as

11:54

long as she could rescue him, she

11:57

felt worthy. She had a project

11:59

and a project. was the rehabilitation of

12:01

him. Where

12:06

did that project come from in you? Well,

12:09

from the time I can remember, the

12:12

message was, you're pretty and you're

12:15

dumb. Not from my parents.

12:18

I had a very distorted view of myself.

12:22

I knew from the time I was about

12:24

ten years old, I'm gonna say, that

12:27

there was something

12:30

quote-unquote wrong with me. That

12:33

I shouldn't feel the amount of

12:36

overwhelming sadness and

12:39

responsibility and

12:42

worry that I did. I

12:45

knew there was something wrong with the way everybody

12:48

else seemed to see me and the way

12:50

I saw myself, which

12:52

was just ugly. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

12:57

The self-doubt. When you

12:59

hurt him, can you relate

13:01

to the fact that he's hurt or do you

13:03

get into a defense about your intentions?

13:08

At this moment, I

13:11

wish I had led her into

13:13

her sadness and

13:15

finally given her the permission to

13:19

feel what she feels. Because

13:22

what she's done is she found a man

13:24

who felt massive sadness. She

13:27

found somebody else who

13:29

carried the feelings that were forbidden to her and

13:33

then set out to rescue him.

13:37

And I wished that I would have opened

13:40

a door for her to enter

13:42

into places that she systematically

13:44

avoids. And

13:46

these are the mistakes that I make sometimes and

13:48

that I can only hear when I listen

13:50

to the session again. I

13:53

think what sometimes happens is that when I

13:55

sit with somebody and I get afraid, I

13:57

too can get afraid. to

14:00

avoid it together. The

14:06

self-doubt. When

14:08

you hurt him, can you relate to the fact

14:10

that he's hurt, or do you get into a defense

14:12

about your intentions? I

14:16

think I'm better now at understanding

14:18

that he's hurt and not defending

14:20

myself. Again, understanding that

14:23

what I've said is maybe not

14:25

been said properly, or

14:28

at least being able to see that it could

14:30

hurt. It's as if

14:32

you were to cook something, and

14:35

he says that's very salty. And

14:37

you say, I didn't put much salt. Who

14:41

cares if you put or didn't

14:43

put much salt? If it's salty

14:46

to him, it's salty to him. If

14:50

he experiences what you

14:52

say as hurtful, how

14:54

you meant it, what you meant, how

14:57

it's irrelevant. But then you

14:59

have to be able to say, I hurt you,

15:02

without asking yourself, what does that mean about

15:04

me? I'm not that kind of a person.

15:06

I'm not a person who hurts. Since

15:08

I don't want to see myself as a person who hurts,

15:10

I can never say I'm sorry that I hurt you. You're

15:14

smiling. Pretty accurate.

15:17

That's pretty accurate. Put it in your

15:19

own words. I

15:21

don't think she is better at stopping. I still

15:24

get hurt. And then I'm, for

15:27

some reason, I'm on the defensive when I'm hurt,

15:30

because she starts attacking. So

15:33

I'm in a position of being hurt, and I'm

15:35

on the defense. And

15:38

then I do shitty things, and I feel even

15:40

worse. And I say stupid shit. And

15:43

I'm an even bigger asshole. Put

15:46

myself in the corner. It's

15:48

hard to get out. What

15:52

they both emphasize at first is

15:54

how stuck they feel in

15:57

these escalations.

16:00

in which they know exactly

16:02

how to trigger the other. And

16:06

if the other person hurts them, what

16:09

they miss is to say the natural thing,

16:11

which is, ouch, that hurt.

16:15

But instead what they'll do is

16:17

attack, attack. And we

16:20

are stuck in a dance of

16:22

hostile dependency, we call it. The

16:25

only reason I am the way I am is because of

16:27

you. And if you were

16:29

different, I wouldn't be doing this. And

16:32

because you're not changing, I keep

16:35

on doing worse and I feel

16:37

terrible about myself and how I react, but

16:40

I feel like you set me up to it.

16:44

This is now the flip side

16:46

of where they began when

16:49

she was his main

16:52

source of social connection. You

16:59

paired up with a woman who

17:02

often serves as a bridge for you

17:06

with the rest of humanity. Yeah.

17:10

But when you only use one well, it

17:13

dries up. Yeah,

17:15

I learned that. We

17:17

learned that. So

17:20

are you able to dig other

17:22

wells? I'm working on it. Yeah.

17:26

He wants to do that by having

17:28

other relationships. And

17:30

therapy. But

17:32

when you mean other relationships, you're looking

17:35

at... Romantic. Sexual. If

17:38

we're talking about the social aspect, yes. He

17:41

said that he only wants to hang out with people that

17:43

he wants to have sex with. That's

17:47

who he's interested in being friends with. And

17:50

I have a hard time with that. I

17:53

believe my word was intimate, but... I

17:57

want intimacy with others. Beautiful

18:01

women. Sure.

18:03

Your words. Women

18:06

that you're attracted to, is that better? Why

18:10

do you shake your head? I

18:14

don't like men. That's

18:18

basically my criteria for a relationship.

18:22

I don't want to hang out with men, I don't want to hear what

18:24

they have to say. That's what he's talking about. That

18:27

means I've chosen to... befriend women. And

18:30

I prefer to have women that I want to

18:32

be intimate with. I don't want to waste time.

18:34

Small talk. I

18:36

don't have enough time to actually... But

18:38

that's not what she's talking about, I don't... I

18:41

think that's exactly what she's talking about. The

18:43

fact that I want to be with women, and other women. And

18:46

that's how I want to foster my relationships. It's

18:49

either intimacy or sex. Or

18:53

a combination of the two. The way you just

18:55

answer it... is

18:57

the beginning of an escalation. You

19:02

answer from a place in which

19:04

you lay your foot down...

19:08

and there is no conversation possible with you

19:10

at that moment. It

19:13

immediately invites a battle.

19:17

Now, I could imagine

19:19

the same thing happening the other way around.

19:22

It just happens to be you who showed

19:24

me the way this starts. Well,

19:27

also in her words, I heard accusations. So I

19:29

guess I responded. I heard

19:31

fear. Did you? Yeah. When

19:35

I say that I heard fear... I'm

19:38

well aware that there was accusation as well.

19:41

But I can see how

19:43

a feeling, and particularly a feeling

19:46

that conjures up vulnerability... is

19:48

instantly turned into an attack. What

19:51

better way to hide my

19:54

vulnerability than to attack you?

19:57

And after many years of this, it goes

19:59

very far. fast. Anybody

20:03

who takes out that kind of a project where

20:05

she wants to be so central to

20:08

everything, it is obvious that the minute

20:10

she's replaced for anything by the way

20:12

with somebody else, she will feel threatened.

20:14

Well, I'd like to take the fear out of it for her if

20:17

I could. I don't know

20:19

if you can, but I certainly know that

20:22

if you do what you began to do,

20:24

you're off track. That

20:27

only reinforces it right away. For

20:31

every sentence that you're going to make,

20:34

her anxiety level is just going

20:36

to climb until she will then

20:38

start to provoke you because if she

20:41

provokes you then she's got you in

20:43

the ring. Now

20:45

you're involved with her, hostile

20:48

and intimate, in

20:51

the second wheel. I

20:55

just want to feel like it's safe for me to say what

20:58

I'm feeling and even

21:01

if it's ugly sometimes, whether

21:04

about somebody else or myself, I

21:07

just want to feel like I can express

21:09

it and the response will

21:11

be, that might

21:13

be ugly and I don't like that you

21:15

said that, but it's okay,

21:17

I'm not going anywhere. We

21:20

can talk about it. I

21:24

want to be able to tell

21:26

him, I'm afraid, but

21:29

you didn't tell him you're afraid. So, you

21:33

didn't get it, but it's also because you didn't

21:35

say it. If

21:39

you said, I'm afraid, could

21:41

you imagine saying something that is more

21:43

reassuring? I

21:46

don't want to leave you. I don't want to end this. And

21:50

do you ever say it like that? Many times.

21:53

But when? Before

21:56

it escalates. After

21:59

it escalates? when we're not

22:01

yelling at each other, when we are

22:04

yelling at each other. It's a

22:06

mantra that I say and

22:08

I repeat it. Right, but your mantra

22:10

is, you ain't gonna suffocate me. The

22:14

minute she said you are intimate

22:16

with other women and you brought down your

22:18

flags, you were basically making

22:20

a manifesto about nobody's locking me up.

22:25

I'm a free bird. I

22:29

do have my responsibility and

22:31

my desire to

22:33

be in this obligatory relationship where I have

22:35

to provide for her. I want to do that.

22:38

I'm here. I've been here. No,

22:41

I know that neither of you want this to end

22:43

and I know that neither of you want to go

22:45

anywhere. I just know that if

22:48

you start to feel held, tied

22:51

up, that doesn't go well

22:53

with you. And if

22:55

she starts to feel unbound

22:58

and unprotected, that doesn't go well with

23:01

her. And those

23:03

are the subjects from which a lot of

23:05

other stuff springs. Yeah.

23:10

You know, the good thing in this

23:12

dance is that just

23:14

about every step you make

23:17

could be improved upon.

23:21

That gives you a lot of options. So

23:26

imagine instead of first beginning with the

23:28

place where what he does rubs you

23:31

wrong, you actually

23:33

begin with the place where

23:35

you notice something that he's

23:37

been doing that is good for

23:39

him and for everybody else maybe. You

23:42

start with that, you get a different

23:44

response. The whole dance goes differently. You

23:47

understand the way this works. It's great.

23:50

It's like music. Every note that you

23:52

change gets to change

23:54

the entire composition. You

24:00

went directly for

24:02

the hardest place. And

24:06

you already knew that you're going

24:08

to get a defensive rant. And

24:11

if I wasn't here now, or we weren't

24:13

here now, you'd do your usual. So,

24:19

take your freedom and

24:21

start differently. Turn

24:26

to him, talk to him. You're

24:30

not going to get a defensive rant. Sorry.

24:35

For what? Because he's giggling.

24:37

He's laughing. Why not? The

24:40

rest of the time you guys take yourself so

24:42

goddamn serious. You know,

24:44

it's okay. It's totally contrived what

24:47

we're doing. But you know,

24:49

the other stuff is so damn absurd that

24:51

I'd rather you be contrived than stuck.

24:54

Yeah. It's

24:57

not enough to show

24:59

people the multiple ways that

25:02

they can derail. You

25:04

have to give them the opportunity

25:06

to experience a moment of

25:08

transformation. My

25:11

therapy is experiential and transformational. But

25:14

it doesn't always work. And I tried

25:16

various times with them to create what

25:18

we call in our language an enactment.

25:22

The experience of

25:24

being vulnerable with each other, of being

25:26

able to respond emphatically, of

25:28

being able to feel safe in acknowledging one's

25:31

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25:34

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Terms and conditions apply. So,

28:42

where do I start? My

28:44

fears? If

28:47

that's where it starts, yeah. It's

28:51

actually quite simple, right? It scares me.

28:57

See, if you don't worry

29:00

about how legitimate your fear

29:02

is, then you can feel it more

29:05

legitimately. I'm

29:14

not going to judge your feelings. I'm

29:18

not going to react to your feelings.

29:23

I'm just, I'm afraid that you're not going to be there

29:25

when I need you. And

29:30

then I think, well, I'll just, I

29:33

don't want to be indebted to you for

29:35

anything. I

29:38

don't want to ask you for help because

29:40

I don't want you to say no. And

29:43

then I feel like crap because I've made

29:46

myself vulnerable by asking for help and been

29:48

told no. So

29:50

I would rather just find

29:53

other ways to do it and

29:56

not have to rely on you. I

30:00

need you. I don't want to need you. I

30:04

desperately want to ask, but I don't want

30:06

to be told no. So

30:08

I don't ask, and then I

30:11

get angry. And then when I finally ask, I

30:13

ask in such a way that guarantees that

30:15

you will say no. I

30:20

know all this about you. I've

30:22

heard it. I've heard you say it. I hear

30:24

you say it now. I'd

30:27

like to be able to take

30:30

the fear out of it for you. Of

30:32

everything. Your self-loathing,

30:35

your image, your

30:37

resentment of having to need someone else. I

30:40

wish it wasn't there. How

30:42

can I help you get there? After

30:47

we did a few rounds of

30:49

creating a space for

30:52

a safe communication between them, where

30:55

she could speak to her fear

30:58

and he could respond, I

31:01

wanted to see if there was something

31:03

that they could each do that would

31:05

introduce some change, some novelty,

31:09

into a sequence, in

31:11

a series of patterns that had

31:13

become so defeating

31:16

for them. If

31:21

I asked you, what are

31:23

two or three areas of

31:26

life where you could show

31:28

up better in relation to

31:31

your wife? Not to your family, to your wife.

31:36

Say yes more to what

31:39

she wants to do, whether it's recreationally

31:41

or... My

31:43

instant response is usually no, because it sounds

31:45

boring to me or I'm not interested, but...

31:48

And you stick to that or you then...

31:50

No, I'm still flexible. It's just initially, it's no,

31:53

I'm not interested. But

31:56

being more open to it right

31:58

away and not just saying no. the first

32:00

thing that comes to mind. That's

32:02

number one. So she says let's go to

32:06

the museum. No. Let's

32:08

go for a walk. Let's go to

32:11

a movie. No. You know that where

32:13

she comes from, she doesn't just hear,

32:15

ah, the movie. She hears,

32:17

ah, you. Dumb idea.

32:21

That's, yeah. I know

32:23

that's what I'm doing. That's not my attention, but

32:25

that doesn't matter. Um. Because

32:28

saying no is my way of

32:31

holding on to myself, by the way. I

32:34

don't think it goes that deep. No? No. What

32:36

do you think it is? I

32:39

think it. I immediately

32:41

go through what's involved in doing it, and

32:43

I'm a lazy bastard, so I

32:46

reject it. Uh-huh. Good.

32:50

I like your bastard, Leon. Okay.

32:55

Area two. I

32:58

suppose just do things instead of waiting to

33:00

be asked in some occasions. Like what? Any

33:03

kind of housework that he's doing, or like a range of

33:05

myself. She's usually the the

33:07

coordinator of all things at home.

33:10

How often during a week

33:12

will you go to her and say, how

33:14

can I help? At

33:17

least once a week I ask her, what can I

33:19

do to help this? Is there anything

33:21

else I can do? I mean, not given our

33:23

current circumstances. When

33:25

I was there, it was all the time. I

33:29

felt. I thought about that

33:31

the other day. That was something that I came

33:33

up with that would be so simple. But can

33:35

you answer? Yes. Without going into

33:37

the, why do I have to tell you?

33:40

No, absolutely. The garbage can go

33:42

out. The dog can be walked. That would help. This

33:44

would help. There are so many things.

33:46

Good. That's it. Short. Yep.

33:49

There's no need for a long conversation about

33:51

it. Do you have a problem?

33:54

I have asked, and I don't get an answer. It's

33:57

something to work on. Definitely. It's very simple. You

34:00

take a sheet together. You

34:02

write on there the 15 main ones. Well,

34:05

we tried making a tour chart, but she would not get involved

34:07

with it. I don't wanna, I don't do, I don't want to.

34:09

Cause we have kids that we need to teach discipline and help

34:11

with the house chores. And then we had it all laid out,

34:13

but one, she

34:16

just wasn't interested and it broke down. So

34:18

it's not working. Now

34:20

there's a mishmash of people who may do things

34:22

occasionally, and they have to be constantly supervised and

34:25

reminded to do these things. Whereas

34:27

when it was written down on the board, What's

34:31

the problem with that? It

34:34

doesn't, I finally took this stupid thing down because

34:36

I was sick of looking at it and it was

34:38

mocking me because I do all of those things on

34:40

that chart. Everybody walks

34:42

by the chart every day. Nobody

34:45

was doing it. Because you

34:47

weren't participating. I don't wanna have

34:49

to police my children. You don't,

34:51

it's written down. No

34:55

sooner do they come up with a good idea

34:58

that they launch into blame

35:00

and attack mode again. How

35:04

to help them think together

35:06

about solving a problem rather

35:09

than treating each other as the problem

35:12

becomes my central concern. It's

35:17

like you can be right or

35:20

married. With

35:24

this, you will be right, but

35:26

you will be alone. And

35:28

it's never difficult to be right and alone. So

35:33

I suggest you

35:35

say it didn't work well. We need to make

35:38

this work better rather than I'm

35:40

not doing this. Yeah,

35:43

I don't know how to make it work better. He is

35:45

trying to let him try help you. Let

35:47

him figure it out. I felt like I

35:50

had to police it. It fell to me

35:52

again. Okay, you said that and he knows

35:54

that. And now we go back to the

35:56

drawing board. Well,

35:58

I literally asked, let me take over. Let me

36:00

let me manage this right so

36:03

you don't have to ask You have

36:05

you can do it. Okay, you can do it and

36:07

you can even do it while you live separately You

36:10

can do it When you drunk?

36:13

Mm-hmm One doesn't ask if

36:15

you can drive. Yeah, that's true.

36:17

Okay when she's flooded You

36:20

don't ask her to tell you what to do What

36:24

if she's actually sabotaging Through

36:26

her actions you need to

36:28

at that moment neutralize her

36:32

Here is the thing that helps the

36:34

most calm

36:37

deliberate taking charge She

36:40

will resist let me pray. Let me

36:42

preface. She will resist Because

36:45

she hates being there but she feels that she

36:47

has to be there and she's the only one

36:50

and nobody else can but she's Pissed that nobody

36:52

else can and so the whole thing is a

36:55

pretzel You know what? My

37:07

variation and

37:11

There is a spin in

37:13

one's head and Somebody has

37:15

got to move the needle. This

37:18

is the hardest thing You Have

37:21

to continue to do your bit even

37:24

if she doesn't immediately Respond

37:27

accordingly Because you

37:29

have such a lack of

37:31

trust in this moment that each of you Responds

37:35

on the basis of your assumptions and not on

37:37

the basis of what's in front of you the

37:41

peace I

37:44

just asked him to think

37:46

of a couple of things that he could

37:48

do That would

37:50

signify change and something new

37:53

I'm now turning to her and asking

37:55

her where she thinks she

37:57

could change some of her behavior

38:01

And what I'm also looking at when

38:03

I ask that question, it's

38:06

an assessment of the degree of

38:08

responsibility that each of the

38:10

two can take for what

38:12

they do. What

38:15

each one of them chooses speaks

38:18

to their ability to see what

38:20

they can own about their

38:23

contribution to

38:25

their relationship. Support

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s-a-t-t-v-a.com. So,

40:42

you know that you hurt him. What's

40:45

the place you shouldn't go? Hmm.

40:53

I think, when I imply

40:55

or insinuate that he doesn't care. Yes?

41:00

Hmm. I'm

41:16

okay, go on. No.

41:19

If she goes on, I want her to go on from

41:22

a place of where she was going.

41:27

Phew. But

41:30

sometimes, his

41:32

actions or words would hurt. He's here. Don't

41:37

explain it. I'm

41:39

sure you have reasons for why you do it,

41:42

but don't explain yourself now. Just stay with the

41:46

buttons that you push. It's

41:49

very easy, as you can see. Huh?

41:51

I said it's very easy to push, as you can see. It's

41:54

an easy button. The

41:56

button that I don't care. The hot

41:58

topic. Me not caring

42:01

or it's very close to

42:03

the surface at all times. In

42:06

both directions. Meaning if she

42:08

acknowledges it, it touches your

42:10

sadness. And if she... Or

42:13

even hints at it, yeah. And if she plays

42:15

with it, then it

42:17

triggers your rage. Fight

42:20

or flight, yeah. But

42:25

right now you're not in flight? No.

42:27

It's just... it's touching the soft spot,

42:29

right? Right. Tell

42:36

me more about that spot. Well,

42:41

just having those

42:43

years of not being able to see my daughter. How

42:46

many? I don't even know. I can't even

42:48

count. Seven,

42:50

eight, off and on. Sporadic.

42:53

I missed a lot of her youth. So

42:57

not being able to care when you really monitor, yeah? And

43:01

always caring the whole time. That

43:04

scarlet hasn't quite healed. So

43:12

when she says you don't care, part

43:15

of your feels all

43:17

these years that I cared? Yeah.

43:21

Yeah. Um... And

43:25

there's always that feeling at the pit of my stomach that something

43:28

is wrong that I've done. That

43:32

you abandoned your daughter? I

43:38

know that's not the case, but I had to walk away. I

43:47

thought by stepping back, her mom would stop

43:49

running. And plant

43:52

some roots for her. Did she? No.

43:57

So by the end, your daughter had the same

43:59

childhood as you? Pretty much. Which

44:02

makes you resilient in some ways, but perhaps

44:05

broken in others. Yeah,

44:11

not the life I wanted for her, but... do

44:14

we ever get that? And

44:18

we can offer it to her now, which is

44:20

wonderful. And I know you get along with

44:22

her very well. Very well. That's nice

44:25

for you. Yeah,

44:27

well, it made me feel

44:29

safe enough that I could move down the street and still

44:31

be close enough to be there. Maybe

44:36

one day you'd move back? Possible.

44:42

It's very tight quarters, though. I don't know. We

44:44

were not there yet where we can turn

44:47

our attention to our physical need for

44:49

growth. Like we need a bigger house or we need

44:51

to go up. If other

44:54

pieces were in place, we could focus on that. What

44:57

pieces need to be in place? Money?

45:00

Money's one, yeah. Just

45:02

our... Who's the better person

45:04

on the money front? I'd

45:07

say we're both pretty crappy. At

45:09

making or at managing? Both. I

45:12

disagree. So

45:16

they have a moment of softening, and

45:18

then they go back to a safer territory of

45:21

arguing. In this case, money.

45:25

I think I'm quite good at managing

45:27

money. It

45:32

was something that I saw was not

45:35

managed well, and

45:38

I just did it. But

45:41

I think that built up resentment as well because... Well, and she can't

45:43

tell me how much money we have at any given moment. I have

45:45

no idea. I know how much I

45:48

make, but that's it. How much do we have? Don't know.

45:51

Can't tell you. It's all up here. I

45:55

can't live like that, at least financially. I don't think

45:57

that's managing your money properly. How

45:59

we're investing. doing or income taxes paid. And

46:03

why don't you sit down for a couple of

46:06

hours and just show him the stuff? Because

46:10

it leads to an

46:12

argument and conversations about how I

46:16

don't do it properly. It doesn't

46:18

make any sense. And

46:24

I don't want to have, I don't want to

46:26

keep having those conversations. I've paid off so

46:30

much debt over the years. You

46:35

can't tell me how much, what are assets and

46:38

our liabilities. That's

46:41

all I needed to see to make a successful budget with

46:44

you. That

46:46

hasn't happened and I don't believe it will. I have no

46:48

faith it will until it's like

46:50

a court order or something.

46:53

And I'm worried about the future.

46:55

But the premise of your financial

46:57

structure is that each of you

47:02

says to the other, I don't trust

47:04

you. You say

47:06

I'm not going to show him because he's going to criticize

47:08

me. And you

47:10

say she's not doing it well. So

47:15

you come up with an answer that isn't a solution. It's

47:18

just an answer that states your reaction. So

47:20

you never actually talk about money. You

47:24

understand? You're talking about you make me feel this way, you make

47:26

me feel that way. Fuck you, fuck you. And

47:31

you probably tackle most tough

47:33

subjects like this. Yeah. An

47:36

enormous amount of arguments between the two of you

47:38

is in trying to create one

47:40

story and forcing

47:42

each other to agree that your version

47:45

or your version is

47:47

the right one in that moment. Rather

47:49

than the harmony that exists from accepting

47:51

that there are two people here and

47:53

they have very different views,

47:56

experiences of the same thing. And

47:59

if you can You make room for that rather

48:02

than impose that what you are feeling is what

48:04

it is. And you should

48:06

feel the same. You will

48:08

do a lot better. So

48:15

it changes because you change yourself.

48:19

You change the other by changing yourself. Since

48:24

you are the one who actually elicits

48:26

that behavior in the other, if

48:28

you don't want that behavior, do

48:30

something else. And

48:34

then you are going to scramble, why shall I? Why

48:38

is it always me? Because you

48:40

want a difference. And that's enough of

48:42

a reason. You

48:51

just heard a classic session of where should we

48:54

begin with Esther Perel. We

48:56

are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in

48:58

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

49:01

To apply with your partner for a session on

49:03

the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on

49:05

each episode, or to sign

49:07

up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go

49:09

to Esther Perel dot com. Esther

49:12

Perel is the author of Mating and Captivity in

49:14

the State of Affairs. She

49:16

also created a game of stories called Where Should We

49:18

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49:21

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