0:00

It's been more than a year since the world broke out

0:02

in Ukraine. And I had the opportunity

0:04

a few months ago of meeting a couple

0:07

whose entire relationship has

0:09

been torn up

0:11

by the war. And it led me

0:13

to want to explore other such relationships.

0:17

In Iran, in Afghanistan, various

0:19

places where the relationship

0:21

between partners is

0:23

completely upended as

0:26

it interacts with big

0:28

events around them. And

0:31

I want to continue to have multiple

0:33

conversations with you about the

0:36

relational impasses that we

0:38

face, be it trust,

0:40

conflict, communication, boundaries,

0:44

decisions, break ups, hard

0:46

breaks. And

0:48

I'm very pleased to say that

0:50

I'm gonna be able to do more of that

0:52

with you Now that

0:54

I am starting a new

0:57

partnership with Voxmedia starting

1:00

this summer, and

1:02

we will be an always on podcast

1:05

that explores all relationships, friendships,

1:09

romantic relationships, work

1:12

relationships, family ties, so

1:15

stay tuned. And in addition,

1:17

I'm also pleased to say

1:19

that we are going to be launching our

1:22

new subscription, podcast subscription.

1:25

In collaboration with Apple

1:27

Podcasts. And it will also

1:29

include bonus content that

1:32

involves parts of sessions that

1:34

we actually didn't keep or conversations

1:37

around the sessions or things that are going

1:39

on in my mind as I try

1:41

to figure out the complexities of modern

1:43

relationships, but it will become

1:46

the deeper level of invest stigation

1:49

into the relationship conundrums

1:51

that so many of us are grappling with.

1:53

So, join me on the Apple

1:56

podcast subscription, joined

1:58

me with vox in our

2:00

new partnership and

2:03

join me in the new season for where

2:05

should we begin coming this summer.

2:10

None of the voices in this episode are ongoing

2:12

clients of Esther Parrales. Each

2:14

episode is an edited version of a one

2:17

time three hour counseling session. For

2:19

the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names

2:22

and some identifiable characteristics have

2:25

been removed, but their voices

2:27

and their stories are real.

2:34

Have you heard about the feud between Selena

2:37

Gomez and Hailey Bieber? I

2:39

was actively scrolling away from

2:41

every video that was

2:43

related to Haley or Selena or Justin, and I was

2:45

still getting served video after video after

2:47

video about it. So at some point

2:49

-- Yeah. -- you're gonna get dragged

2:51

into whatever drama is happening

2:54

inside of that

2:55

app, whether you like it or not.

2:57

TikTok, and celebrities, and why

2:59

we can't escape their drama. This

3:02

week on Intuit Vulture's pop

3:04

culture podcast.

3:10

When

3:10

we tell the stories of war, we

3:14

often leave out. What

3:16

happens? To couples, to

3:18

their dynamics, to their intimate

3:20

life.

3:21

In this session, I wanted to look

3:24

at what happens to love in war.

3:26

Our lifestyle has changed so drastically.

3:29

He's going through alerts five

3:31

times per day. He has to go to boomer.

3:34

To save himself and and our

3:36

son. But

3:37

it was very hard to

3:39

separate, spread our family.

3:44

He is in Ukraine with their

3:46

eighteen year old son waiting

3:48

to be drafted or more accurately

3:51

dreading to be drafted. And in

3:53

Western Europe as a refugee with

3:55

their sixteen year old

3:57

son. We have everyday meetings

3:59

online one day with children,

4:01

one day just one on one. The

4:04

first conversation was really tough because

4:06

when I asked how are

4:08

you? And he said, I don't even know.

4:11

I'm afraid to ask myself this question because

4:13

there is so much pain there that I don't

4:15

even want to live there.

4:18

My father's officer and he was like

4:21

disciplined. He said every time to me, you

4:23

need to be strong, you need

4:25

to be just defending your

4:28

family and your feelings

4:30

no matter your action matter.

4:32

And it's it's it's why I

4:35

try to be, you know, just

4:37

Captain America for

4:39

for my life.

4:42

They're trying to talk about

4:44

their existential stress, but

4:46

they're also trying to find a way to maintain

4:49

their connection which used to be such

4:51

a powerful cohesive force for both of

4:53

them. They were a very intimate

4:55

couple, a very romantic couple,

4:57

a very sensual couple. During

5:00

twenty two years of our marriage, we would have,

5:02

like, weekly dates with each

5:04

other. We were really closed

5:06

to

5:07

me, this man is one and

5:09

only, and we are one

5:11

like flesh. When we start

5:14

our

5:14

relationship, she free, yes,

5:16

said me no. For me, it's like

5:18

treasure. This beautiful woman.

5:22

And a question we often have

5:25

in acute stress is

5:28

how much are we allowed to still

5:30

want the little jewels

5:33

of life? And how much do we have

5:35

put all of that aside because

5:37

of the great havoc. That

5:40

internal tension exists also between

5:43

the two of them. And all of

5:45

that is freed at this moment.

5:47

My my man of my life is not besides

5:49

me and I was feeling

5:51

lonely and I need just

5:54

to be loved. I want to be loved. I want to hear

5:56

compliments. I want to be the

5:58

same woman for him.

6:00

My first reaction was what you're

6:02

talking about, but compliment

6:05

we have war.

6:14

I have feeling that whatever you're going

6:16

to say, you are not the only

6:18

one. By far. You

6:21

will be speaking for millions of

6:23

people who are experiencing what

6:26

it means to live separated by

6:28

war. Separated with

6:31

you in Ukraine with one son,

6:33

and you in Western Europe with

6:35

the other son. Just

6:37

that

6:38

image in front of me brings tears

6:41

to my eyes.

6:42

Yeah. Thank you so much.

6:45

Thank you, sir. How many months have you

6:47

been separated?

6:49

For five months since the end of February,

6:52

I left on the third day of war.

6:55

It was difficult to say. It was difficult to

6:57

leave. It was right like an open

7:00

wound. But anyway,

7:02

the decision should have

7:04

been made because there was no option, also

7:06

thinking about our children, just

7:08

because the older son could not leave the country

7:10

as well as Andrew could not leave the country. We

7:13

had to make this decision. And I had a hope

7:15

in my heart that, okay, few weeks, a

7:18

month, okay, maybe two months, we

7:20

can handle it somehow and the world will be

7:22

over. Now it's been five

7:24

months almost it is

7:26

getting to the six months now. And

7:29

I literally cannot imagine another

7:32

month coming. It's

7:35

just yeah. Like, a deep wound

7:37

and it's getting worse and deeper.

7:40

One flesh that was divided into parts.

7:43

A surgery is being

7:44

made, and no one it's not

7:46

done with the surgery, just an open wound

7:48

bleeding. I

7:51

had this visceral strange

7:56

thought, but I, you know, this

7:58

kind of When you have questions

8:00

about life and death and you suddenly wonder

8:03

who for who is it more difficult? For

8:05

the one who leaves or for the one who stays?

8:10

Is involved? It's a forced in

8:12

bargain. Right? But what -- Yes.

8:14

-- what do you think is the

8:17

specific pieces

8:20

for the person for the Perel who stayed

8:23

and the child who stayed and what do you

8:25

think is unique to the

8:26

experience, to the Perel who lives.

8:30

After the war started, I was looking for

8:32

protect my family. It it

8:36

it was my priority. Mhmm. And

8:39

it was very hard to

8:41

separate. Separate

8:43

our family, but I know it's better

8:45

for for a long and

8:48

long line. Be in

8:50

the safe country. And

8:52

I know I I

8:55

have responsibility in

8:57

my country every

8:59

day you go

9:01

to bed and think about. Maybe

9:04

in the news, this night, I

9:07

will die. Because

9:09

you don't know what's

9:11

going on in this time because every

9:14

week we hear a

9:17

special signal like when

9:19

pressure rocket come to Ukrainian,

9:22

we have signal, and

9:24

we need to be in the safe place. And

9:27

sometimes you you can hear it. Unless

9:32

I try to be helpful

9:34

for for my elder

9:37

son, Mark, tried to

9:40

connect with him because I see here

9:42

inside now, here not open

9:45

he's so focused in

9:48

himself, not talk more,

9:52

just say, okay, I'm okay, but

9:55

It hurt because I understand he

9:58

has struggled inside. And

10:01

you want to help him, but

10:03

You don't know how you can help

10:05

with him. You just try

10:08

to spend time with him and just

10:11

do something, be good

10:14

that, and his

10:17

kids for me, his kids eighteen

10:20

years old, but his kids for me,

10:22

it's so young to handle

10:24

this situation. Because

10:26

sometimes I I can't handle this

10:29

situation. I

10:32

know I'm chief my family

10:34

and I need to be strong.

10:38

I can't like, okay, guys.

10:41

Sorry. I have problem and

10:43

just I

10:45

I need to be I

10:47

need to protect him,

10:50

protect my wife, protect my longest

10:53

sun and every

10:56

evening we talk in the

10:58

sky and it's better time

11:00

for me. Because

11:03

it's little place of peace in

11:05

our

11:05

life. I

11:10

mean, I listen to him and I

11:12

I get the chills because it's

11:15

so common to hear men

11:17

or conversations about modern masculinity

11:20

be about power and

11:23

control and abuses of power

11:25

and What I'm hearing him

11:27

talk is I have to be strong because

11:30

that is how I protect my family.

11:33

And he brings back a certain

11:35

essential view of

11:37

his role as a man as he sees

11:39

it, which is I must

11:41

choke my tears I cannot

11:44

be too weak. I cannot be

11:46

soft. I cannot let myself feel

11:48

fear because I have to protect

11:51

the others. Of the fear that

11:53

they feel. I

11:58

tried to live one day. It's it's

12:01

from

12:02

me? Day by day. Yes.

12:04

Day by day by day.

12:06

Because you think about one day, you

12:08

have schedule and this day, you know what

12:10

you need to do, you

12:12

do it and, like, the

12:16

evening time you speak with a family,

12:18

you see each other, you

12:21

can, like, have

12:23

a little funny time just to share about

12:25

what's going on this day. Up and

12:28

down. It just it just tried to

12:30

joke. Try to support each other.

12:34

And it's yes. It's like

12:36

fit together. Mhmm. Mhmm.

12:39

Does your son know

12:42

some of what you are experiencing? Because

12:45

if you don't tell him anything and

12:47

he may not have the language like you

12:50

do, he may think that

12:52

he's the only one or he may think that

12:55

he has to be okay because you

12:57

keep telling him I'm okay. And

13:01

so that becomes the code of the house.

13:04

Everything's fine with you, so everything must

13:06

be fine with him. But if

13:08

you were able to say maybe, you know,

13:10

today was a very hard day and

13:13

whatever the reason, then he can

13:16

say was a hard day for me too.

13:19

Maybe some might be not big.

13:21

My fears I share about it, like,

13:24

something upset today, like

13:27

like big question about life,

13:29

about death,

13:33

about killing keep all bonding

13:36

because I have fears. Of

13:38

course, I can die. And

13:41

I can joined to military

13:43

because I'm officer

13:45

reserve officer in the green army. I

13:48

can take I could take invitation and

13:50

go to war like my brothers. All

13:53

your brothers. Thank you. Brothers. Yes.

13:57

My my own brothers was

14:00

football coach for kids. Can

14:03

never was in military.

14:07

But some days, military

14:09

department called to him it ask

14:11

him come and

14:13

say, you need your

14:15

country protect. And

14:18

he say, yes, I'm ready. When

14:20

he joined the military, his

14:24

officer said, now it's your

14:26

job. We don't know when

14:28

it stopped. Only when you

14:30

are stopped, you you

14:34

go back home. You know, in

14:36

this fear, well, your

14:38

life, but you can share about maybe

14:40

your close friends because III

14:43

tried to protect. I'm

14:46

no. I'm not superman. I'm not

14:48

like captain America. Yeah.

14:51

But I know.

14:55

Got have planned for my life

14:57

and I just want to

14:59

be right

15:02

and do good

15:04

decision when I need

15:06

to do. Because I know

15:08

my wife have, in other opinion, about

15:12

what I need to do when military

15:15

department caught him. No.

15:17

I I don't have just five

15:19

Meaning about join or not join,

15:21

because

15:23

I should join if I'm called. I

15:25

have no choice. I mean, you can you

15:27

you you In

15:30

Ukraine, you can say no, but

15:32

if you have if you in

15:34

charge, if you have your

15:37

belief mean,

15:39

you you can take the gun.

15:42

You can

15:42

say, sorry, I can kill people.

15:44

I can You

15:46

can be a contentious subject. That's what.

15:48

Mhmm. But now my

15:50

Perel, like, not like troops,

15:53

like soldiers, I'm officer

15:56

to protect Kai like for

15:58

missile. I need to strike

16:00

missile. My my specialized

16:03

like officer. This is in reserve.

16:05

But if a Ukraine

16:07

army called to me, I need to go

16:09

to this department to protect

16:11

Skye. Protect our sky, protects

16:14

our cities

16:15

city from Russian bombing.

16:18

It's I think it's okay. It's a good idea.

16:20

If they Your wife says

16:25

she afraid she just

16:27

tried to be, no, no, just

16:30

save yourself. Say

16:33

you can't.

16:36

I know it's it's It's

16:38

hard. What do you think

16:40

maybe? I just think

16:42

that everyone has his mission

16:44

in life And

16:47

if we are talking about professional military,

16:49

I understand that. That's your choice that

16:51

you make. When you are younger,

16:53

not really, but this is not a regular situation.

16:56

That's a word. Surely

16:59

to me, I understand

17:01

that there are ways how to serve

17:05

when you are in the army, how

17:07

to help Perel, but

17:10

to me, this man is one

17:12

and only and surely

17:14

from my side as a woman. I

17:17

want to respect his decisions than I'm trying

17:19

to, even

17:22

though I don't agree. What

17:24

we had conflict in twenty fourteen,

17:27

the revolution in in Ukraine, and

17:30

all the people went out to

17:32

the streets to protest. It

17:35

was in Kiev, in capital. And

17:37

I did not want Andrew to go he wanted

17:39

to go to to the capital to just show a peaceful

17:41

protest. That he does not

17:43

agree with what government thinks.

17:47

But those were really terrifying times

17:50

because many people were killed. So I did

17:52

not want him to go, but

17:54

he went. I had

17:56

to find

17:59

peace in our relationship where

18:01

it's him as an individual and

18:03

that's his own choice. When

18:06

it's about your conscience, I

18:09

want him to be in peace with himself

18:12

because he will be accountable to god

18:14

in the end of his life, and I don't want him

18:17

to

18:19

sell his conscience for my ideas

18:22

even though it's really difficult

18:24

to me. Yeah. But

18:27

we are trying to think how

18:28

everyone need

18:30

to do what he

18:33

believed. In

18:38

his worldview, he

18:40

sees her leaving with their youngest

18:42

son as the right

18:44

thing to do, he doesn't question

18:46

it. Whereas she

18:48

questions. Even

18:51

though she respects it. She

18:53

also questions his decision

18:55

to stay, his decision to serve

18:58

and his decision to put his conscience

19:02

before his love for

19:04

her. That's how she frames

19:06

it. But she understands the

19:09

structure, but she also finds

19:11

it's very challenging because she's

19:13

afraid to lose it.

19:18

Every day I ask, god,

19:20

what do you know, what you want.

19:24

Open from the end. I don't know.

19:26

In every situation, I will

19:29

I will find good

19:31

solution. If

19:34

you make a decision, do you

19:36

feel that it would be your decision or

19:39

god's decision for you?

19:44

I think every of of

19:47

us have maybe distant

19:49

-- Mhmm. -- maybe

19:52

and need to find what

19:54

he'll live in this blended

19:58

what he born. And

20:01

if I leave, I I

20:04

need to do and

20:06

find my decision. Now

20:09

I work in the existing company

20:11

in the our mission

20:13

to deliver product

20:16

to grocery store. We we our work

20:18

where necessary for people because

20:20

if people see

20:23

the product in the grocery store, it's okay,

20:25

but if no product in the grocery store,

20:27

it's it's like sarcasm in

20:29

the people. And I know now it's

20:31

my place. I work

20:33

in this company. It's we do

20:35

good job. It's very important for

20:38

society. And I do

20:40

what what I I can do. If

20:43

another day someone called to me and

20:45

say, this work for you, you need.

20:49

I will I will pray.

20:51

I will look in my heart when

20:53

I think. What what what

20:56

where is the best place for me?

20:58

When I can be careful for

21:00

people because now if

21:02

you live in Ukraine, every people now

21:04

try to find how we

21:06

can help

21:09

what we need to do to be

21:11

closer. Every people

21:14

in ingrained like one big

21:16

family. This I can do

21:18

it. It's help people and you

21:20

in the right place because

21:23

you are You're like a little

21:25

hero, but I know people who lost

21:27

Ukraine now. They

21:29

hero too because he tried

21:31

to save life to try to

21:33

support families, and he

21:35

tried to protect children.

21:38

As they try to protect children, And

21:40

it's very important too because maybe

21:44

we are distance, but we are united.

21:47

We just together air

21:49

emission, outside inside.

21:52

I think, let me let me tell you

21:54

what I heard and tell me if I heard it

21:57

Well, I am

21:59

in the Ukraine, you say. And

22:02

I'm in the front line and I

22:05

am here feeling the every day

22:07

of what is going on, and my

22:10

mission is to do for the good

22:12

of everybody. My

22:14

purpose is to make sure that there is

22:16

food in the supermarket so that people have

22:19

some sense of normalcy and

22:21

eating. And I bring my logistics

22:24

skills to the store and

22:26

my sense of family is that I

22:28

can get through the day if I feel like I've

22:30

done something helpful for

22:33

others and for my country. And

22:36

when I look at my wife and the other

22:38

people who are outside the country, sometimes

22:41

it seems to me I'm adding this

22:43

part that they may not understand

22:46

as much that feeling

22:49

of doing for everybody else

22:52

because they went away. They

22:54

also are doing for others, but they're not

22:56

seeing the effect every

22:59

day of the war, the way that those

23:01

of us who stayed behind are doing. So

23:03

yes, they are helping us. They're sending

23:05

money. They're taking care of the children. They're

23:08

protecting the family that isn't

23:10

home. But they are

23:12

more into I want you to

23:14

take care of yourself. I want you protect

23:17

yourself, I want. And

23:20

you are saying, I can't protect myself

23:22

if it doesn't protect the people around

23:24

me. And so

23:26

the the the circumstances and

23:28

the vantage point that each of

23:31

you has, you being in the country

23:33

and you being out of the country is

23:36

complementary and meets in

23:38

this unity, but is also different.

23:41

Because one of you is focusing on

23:44

the comfort and the security and the safety

23:46

and the other one is focusing on

23:49

the duty and the collective

23:52

and the conscience and

23:54

defines security through

23:56

that lens. Something

23:58

like

23:59

that? Yes.

24:02

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

24:06

You've been listening a lot. I'm

24:09

gonna invite you to say something. Yeah.

24:13

We share a lot. We we

24:15

have everyday meetings

24:17

online one day with children

24:20

one day just one on one. Because

24:22

at some point, we realized that

24:24

after having just everyday meetings

24:27

just four of us like a family. I

24:29

realized that I have this

24:32

big gap I don't know, intimacy

24:35

on emotional level that I need

24:37

one and one talks more often.

24:40

The first conversation was really tough because

24:42

when I asked, like, so

24:44

Andrew, how are

24:47

you? And he said, I don't even know.

24:50

Because I'm afraid to ask myself this question,

24:53

because I'm afraid there is so much pain

24:55

there that I don't even want to look

24:57

there. On the other

24:59

hand from what you have just shared,

25:01

which is absolutely true, I

25:03

was kind of feeling being, you know,

25:06

in France, somewhere looking

25:08

at the couples. I was feeling

25:10

lonely. I was feeling not

25:12

love. There is, like, my my man of my

25:14

life is not be sides me. I

25:16

don't hear anymore, so many compliments.

25:19

That is my need in relationships.

25:22

I don't hear this. I don't hear that. And

25:24

under and from my perspective. So

25:27

our needs were different. So when and then we

25:29

decided, no. We need to talk

25:32

even more because we had this have it in our

25:34

family, like, during twenty

25:36

two years of our marriage, we would have, like,

25:38

weekly

25:40

dates with each other we were really

25:42

close, but just because of the war and

25:44

because our

25:47

lifestyle has changed so drastically. We

25:51

we we were kinda afraid

25:54

to approach each other. I was

25:56

afraid to hurt him because I

25:58

knew that he's going through

26:01

five times per day. He has to go to

26:03

boomer to save himself

26:06

and and our son. And

26:09

I need just to be left. I want

26:11

to be left. I want to hear compliments. I

26:13

want to be the same

26:15

woman for him.

26:18

My first reaction was what

26:20

I'm talking about, but complement.

26:22

We have war. We have

26:25

difficult situation. I tried to I tried to do

26:27

something helpful for for

26:29

my country, for my family, for

26:32

complement, but then I just

26:35

thinking about it because I think

26:38

she just go through Difficult

26:41

time now, she has

26:44

needs. It's like like

26:46

bible said, it's my part it's

26:48

my body. My wife, it's like if my

26:50

hand have painful, I want

26:52

to protect, I want to just heal

26:55

my hand. It's if my wife

26:57

need good words like

26:59

compliments, say, you so

27:01

beautiful today. I love

27:03

you so much and

27:06

It's very important for her.

27:08

Andrew. Mhmm. It's not just

27:10

important for her. It's

27:13

not just important for her.

27:15

Because you too feel this.

27:19

But if you allow yourself to

27:21

connect with those feelings, it's

27:23

even more scary. If

27:26

you remember how much you love her and

27:28

how much you miss her and how much you would

27:30

love to touch her and how much you would like

27:32

her to hold you, you will

27:35

connect with a different set of

27:37

feelings. At this

27:38

point, you respond from the heroic position

27:41

of I'm fighting for my country and it's

27:43

crucial.

27:45

Yeah. But there is also I'm deeply connected

27:47

to you and I don't wanna lose you. And

27:49

so if you make it that she wants to

27:51

be loved while you are expressing the

27:53

love of the nation. You're

27:56

missing the point for yourself, not

27:58

for her, for yourself. But

28:01

your fear -- Oh. -- if I know

28:03

something, Andrew, if I understood you

28:05

well, is that if you allow

28:07

yourself to connect with that

28:09

part of you.

28:12

It will increase the fears and

28:14

it will make you less strong. Yes.

28:19

It's like you just save

28:22

yourself from pain. Just

28:25

and be like maybe be

28:30

focused in the real action

28:32

because something I

28:35

I can stop this situation. I can,

28:37

like, make say my

28:39

wife come to me and be with me

28:42

because it's like, it's

28:45

because it's not safe. And

28:50

maybe maybe I don't know. Say it

28:52

in Ukrainian. Say it to her.

28:55

Andrew. Say it to her in Ukrainian.

28:57

This is too deep to say it in English, and

28:59

she will translate for me.

29:35

Andrew said that this pain is so

29:37

deep and so hurtful,

29:40

painful, that he doesn't even want

29:43

to give it a salt. And

29:46

all he can do is just act

29:48

and do something to not

29:50

go to that place because it's the pain

29:53

is just overwhelming. I'm

29:56

gonna let you respond to him.

30:00

I feel like it's really difficult to

30:04

to unblock this because at

30:07

this time, he's

30:09

always vulnerable and he can easily

30:11

cry. But at this time, It seems like

30:14

he's frozen. There

30:17

are some days when when Andrew can share

30:20

a bit deeper. Yeah.

30:23

He's always ready to hear

30:26

my crying, my pain because

30:29

he's still the cloth. He is he

30:32

was, and he is the closest person to

30:34

me in life. I have

30:36

many friends. That's fine, but it's different.

30:39

But I sometimes feel

30:41

I don't know how to approach.

30:45

What questions to ask? Because I am afraid

30:47

that if I start

30:49

unfolding this PIN,

30:53

then I will not know how to help him.

30:56

Because he's far. I

30:59

can't hug

31:01

and embrace, you know, in

31:04

the moment I'm mostly numb. And

31:08

can't handle things?

31:11

Yeah. Number

31:14

three is not always that you can't

31:16

handle things. Numbness is sometimes

31:19

an adaptive response

31:22

in the moment. Him

31:25

saying to you, it's

31:28

too painful if I allow myself

31:30

to feel how much I miss you. That

31:33

is not numbness. That's

31:36

actually being in it. Even

31:38

if he doesn't cry

31:41

like you do, do he did before?

31:44

Why feel? Because I can't do anything

31:46

about my feelings? I

31:48

can't bring my wife back,

31:51

but I can get food on the shelf in

31:53

the supermarket. So logistics, is

31:56

doable. Love is

31:59

painful. They

32:05

both are in survival mode.

32:07

They both are into fight,

32:09

flight, and three. And

32:11

when she describes how she goes numb,

32:14

of course, the question is, is this

32:17

numbness a problem? Or is this numbness

32:19

in the moment actually adaptive? Because

32:22

in hindsight, we often

32:24

wonder why we react at certain

32:26

ways and we leave out the

32:28

fact that in the moment those were

32:31

adaptive responses.

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34:45

If I understood something where

34:47

you are in France, there are other refugees

34:50

that are

34:51

couples. And there's a part of

34:53

you. Yeah? Is that what you said?

34:56

Yeah. I see

34:58

some couples who are together, Ukrainians,

35:01

and you get jealous. Yeah. I'm

35:03

jealous. I can't. I

35:06

don't know even why do they get to be

35:08

together. Yeah. And

35:11

then I try to find answers mostly

35:13

logical because my heart does not want to

35:15

accept

35:15

this. And then you go into

35:18

why is this country more important than me?

35:21

Or us? Absolutely. And then

35:23

you

35:23

get into

35:24

a triangle where it's you,

35:27

him, and the country? Absolutely.

35:31

Yeah. Do you talk to him about the jealousy?

35:35

I did not probably call it jealousy,

35:37

but I talked to him. Sometimes

35:40

when I heard some men saying,

35:42

but I'm here to protect my family.

35:44

That's why I left. And

35:46

I feel

35:48

but doesn't he protect our

35:51

family. I mean, I

35:53

don't believe he does not.

35:57

So but yeah, you are absolutely right

35:59

from what you saying that

36:02

those are heavy feelings. I

36:05

sure just know that there is no easy

36:07

way out. We don't I

36:08

mean, I respect his decision.

36:12

I

36:12

mean, men cannot legally leave the country.

36:15

So only if you have three children, you

36:17

can leave the country.

36:19

I said about my wife. If

36:22

you come to Ukraine one day

36:24

and after nine months, If

36:27

you go pregnant, it's just two

36:29

babies. Yes. I

36:31

have

36:31

chance, a legal

36:34

lived country. Come

36:37

to Ukraine. Spend the weekend with me. Let's

36:40

make love. Get pregnant, and then

36:42

we can get out. Yes.

36:47

Seems like a plan. My my

36:49

my dream was two boys, two

36:51

girls. Yes. We have two boys.

36:54

We need to to girls.

36:58

When you say I respect his decision,

37:01

do you think he feels

37:03

that?

37:05

Does he feel that I respect? Mhmm.

37:09

How deep are your questions?

37:11

Your question is,

37:14

like, whoa.

37:19

I can even be more honest with you.

37:23

Please, I

37:26

think he would like to respect his decision.

37:29

But I'm not sure you really do

37:32

because there's a part of you that things

37:34

differently, and these are not questions that

37:36

can so nicely be aligned. You

37:38

have had your disagreements, I'm sure,

37:41

in the history of your marriage. But

37:43

these are deep existential religious

37:47

convictions that

37:49

take you in different directions. And so

37:52

you would like to say he needs to

37:54

be able to be at peace with his conscience.

37:56

He needs to be able to be between

37:59

him and god and at the end of

38:01

his life know that he did, you know,

38:04

you have the right words. You

38:07

think well. But

38:09

I'm not sure that your feelings are

38:11

aligned with your thoughts. It

38:13

doesn't come

38:14

true.

38:14

Not really.

38:15

You agree? I

38:17

do. I agree. And when

38:19

you ask this question, the

38:22

first thought that came to my mind, I'm

38:24

not sure. I

38:26

want to align my feelings to this

38:30

respectful attitude,

38:33

but sometimes

38:35

it does not happen this way. It

38:37

for me is, like, two ways. One

38:40

way I need to be with my family. And

38:43

another way, I need to count my

38:45

country. And it's like,

38:48

how I can connect this would

38:51

both go in my life.

38:53

And I need to

38:55

be honest with myself -- Mhmm.

38:58

-- and hear

39:00

my heart. But

39:03

every time when we have this,

39:06

situation, it's not

39:09

easy for us to find peace

39:11

and find because we have different

39:13

opinion. Mhmm. But if

39:15

I may, I think it's

39:17

not just that you have different opinions

39:20

from each other. So you're in two thousand

39:22

fourteen, there's a revolution. You

39:24

decide to go to the demonstrations

39:27

and there's a part

39:29

of Alyana that says, I wish

39:31

that you didn't

39:33

go and that you stood by us.

39:35

But at the same time, when

39:38

I know what attracted her

39:40

to you, your

39:42

character, your strength,

39:44

your integrity, your

39:47

deep sense of commitment and

39:49

devotion, to the family

39:51

and beyond. So

39:53

I can only imagine. It's

39:55

not just that she says don't go.

39:57

Is that she is not just in a conflict

40:00

with you. She's also having

40:02

an internal conflict between

40:05

the fear of losing you. And the wish

40:07

for you to stay and at the same

40:09

time also the respect and the admiration

40:12

for you that you go and that you

40:14

do what you're doing. It's both

40:16

hands, but that's inside

40:19

of her. Do you understand? Is

40:22

it does it feel right, what I said? Yeah.

40:24

Eliana? To me. Yes.

40:28

I think that sometimes if you

40:30

could speak from both places

40:32

like that, he also

40:34

would feel like you get him. And

40:38

if you were able sometimes

40:40

more to talk even about the pain,

40:42

about not being with her. She

40:45

would feel less alone that she's

40:47

the only one. Who

40:50

misses the compliments and the sensuality

40:53

and the connection because

40:55

you are busy with the country. There

40:59

is a bridge and you're not walking

41:01

across it enough. Yeah.

41:04

What do you say in Ukraine? Do you

41:06

understand me? Like

41:11

in Yeah.

41:15

Okay. Like, I said Polish accent

41:17

a little bit. Yeah.

41:25

But I but I think Mandy.

41:28

For alum, she

41:31

lost her dad, her mom, and

41:33

her brothers now in a

41:36

not good condition like healthy. And

41:39

me, maybe our family for

41:42

her is like all, and

41:45

she tried to save it. It's

41:47

why her her is

41:49

painful. You are her

41:51

family in every

41:53

and said the word. She

41:55

no longer has her mother or her

41:57

father, her brother is in ill

41:59

health, and you are it.

42:02

And the thought of you going to

42:04

the army leaves her with

42:06

a dreadful feeling that she

42:08

could be all alone with the

42:10

two boys.

42:13

Exactly last year when my

42:15

mom passed away. I

42:17

felt so impruded in

42:20

every sense of this word because I lost

42:23

parents who gave me life. And

42:26

I remember when Andrew came back home

42:28

and he hugged me and said, Mom

42:31

is not with us anymore because

42:33

her neighbor called enter not me because she was afraid

42:35

to call me. And

42:38

I said, you are the only person

42:40

in this world. There's

42:43

no more. No one who can

42:45

be closer. And sure,

42:47

I'm super communicative girl. I have lots

42:49

of friends and but it's very

42:51

different. The

42:53

closest person is Andrew. Unlike

42:57

maybe for Andrew is different because his parents

42:59

are alive, his brother is is okay.

43:01

I mean, he's okay. I mean, in

43:03

good health and He's alive.

43:05

I had a I have a drug at a brother.

43:08

And plus my children who are turning

43:12

almost seventeen and nineteen. Kinda

43:14

losing everything and feeling super lonely

43:17

in the country where I am now. As

43:20

I understand that he's

43:22

going through his

43:23

struggle. I'm going through my struggle. We are

43:25

trying to be there for each other, for

43:27

sure as much as we can. You're

43:31

always clear that your place

43:33

is with your younger son in

43:37

Western Europe. Or you

43:39

think sometimes we could

43:41

reunite, but

43:43

we'd have to be in the village together.

43:49

This is the question I'm asking myself now

43:52

these days. Can I

43:54

handle another five months? Being

43:57

in the situation like that, maybe it's better just

43:59

go back home and die together and

44:01

not struggle so

44:03

painfully because it's it's huge I

44:06

can bear it. And

44:09

then all

44:11

the traumatic experiences appear

44:13

at the moment when I'm thinking of coming back

44:15

home because I've

44:17

had many panic attacks and lots of things

44:19

that I was going through anxiety and depression

44:22

and

44:23

and then I can't picture myself sitting

44:25

in boomer. I can't picture myself

44:30

having severe anxiety while

44:33

going too bad because it took me about

44:35

five years to recover. And I'm okay

44:37

now, I mean, before the war, the the

44:39

year before the war, I felt like

44:42

thanks to a lot of, like, different things,

44:44

breathing techniques and lots of stuff, I could bring

44:46

myself back to a normal state where

44:48

I can handle myself mentally I'm

44:51

okay. I'm

44:54

just thinking now about coming,

44:57

like, for a date, for a week or

44:59

two, just to see each other,

45:02

and see how it feels.

45:04

Do you work there? Do you have a life there?

45:06

Or are you in temporary

45:08

mode every day wondering maybe

45:10

I'll go back tomorrow and so

45:12

you never really Perel. Because

45:14

you keep thinking I'm going home soon.

45:19

Yeah, thank you so much for asking this

45:21

question. Because this

45:23

is the biggest challenge for

45:25

me nowadays. Because I see,

45:27

at this time, like, five months

45:30

Since the war has started, I see

45:32

many families or even individuals they

45:34

start to Perel. They start to live

45:36

a new life at the place where they are.

45:39

And I'm jealous, like you said, thanks

45:41

for just giving it a name.

45:44

I'm jealous because I

45:46

can't see myself settling somewhere without

45:49

Andrew. Because to me

45:51

being a creative one, I am a creator.

45:54

I I create big projects. III

45:56

love vision. And I can't

45:59

give myself a permission to have this

46:01

vision because once I have it,

46:03

I need to start creating something

46:06

by myself, but I cannot

46:08

picture myself settling somewhere.

46:10

So it was a temporary place for me

46:12

to just wait when the

46:14

thunderstorm and the rain will is over.

46:17

But the rain is not over. It's a pouring

46:19

rain. Mhmm. And I'm They are

46:22

standing in the middle of this pouring rain

46:24

thinking where I can

46:26

go now. If I go back to Ukraine,

46:28

I can't work at it. Can I can't do

46:30

my business there now because it just closed

46:32

the the something that I do, I can't

46:34

do it now? I know what I want

46:36

to do. I clearly know what I want to do. I clearly

46:39

who I am and how to be

46:41

self realized, but I can't give

46:43

myself permission to settle.

46:46

And so now what I see,

46:48

I see many families and individuals trying

46:50

to start fun, fun jobs,

46:53

finding some ways of how they can

46:56

you know, give education to their children.

46:59

Your son goes to school? My

47:01

son goes to school here. He's okay. He's

47:04

younger one, he's much easier for

47:06

him to adapt. So he's okay

47:08

with he found his community, let's

47:10

say, he he goes to school

47:13

here and he sees himself somehow

47:15

staying here. So

47:17

I kind of potentially can feel

47:19

that I can Perel

47:21

somewhere, but I can't see myself settling

47:23

without Andrew. I It's

47:25

so interesting when

47:27

this year started I

47:30

thought we need to have

47:33

vacation, whole family. This

47:36

dream, this picture that

47:39

we, some day, we

47:41

be together, whole family.

47:44

We will spend vacation.

47:47

And because I don't know when it will,

47:49

when it will, but I know

47:52

it will. I know, some day,

47:55

we deal together, and we deal

47:57

with vacation. New

47:59

vacation. Yes. When do

48:01

you know in my kitchen, yes,

48:03

in in architecture, we have calendar, every

48:07

day, new page, every day, new page.

48:09

And this page stopped in

48:11

February. Twenty three, its

48:14

last peaceful day. And

48:16

I said, when my family will

48:19

together in the kitchen, in our

48:21

apartment, we changed

48:24

this date. It's

48:26

a beautiful picture to hold

48:30

as hope as hope, you

48:33

know, that when we will meet again,

48:35

we will travel again and

48:38

It gives you, I'm sure, a lot of

48:40

strength to wake up in the morning and

48:42

to go to bed at night.

48:45

Do you want her to come home or do

48:47

you want her to stay? I

48:52

don't know. It's It's difficult

48:54

question -- Yeah. -- because I know

48:56

her feeling I know her her

48:59

fears. But

49:02

what's inside here is really important? I

49:05

know it's for your b

49:07

in Ukraine now, it's big

49:09

suffering. Mhmm. And

49:11

maybe it's not good for your

49:13

health. I

49:15

don't judge you and blame you.

49:19

I want to just

49:21

help you to find your your

49:23

decision. Because

49:27

it's your decision. And yes,

49:30

inside, I I want to be

49:32

she with me in Ukraine, but

49:35

I know she

49:37

feel not safe in

49:40

this. But we we try

49:42

to find good decision. Mhmm. It

49:45

may be pieces of a decision. She

49:47

may come home for a week or two.

49:51

And hope that it gives her more clarity.

49:56

There is also a part of you earlier that

49:58

if you start something where you are, that

50:00

doesn't mean that you never go

50:03

back. It just means that

50:06

This takes much longer than you ever imagined

50:08

and you have no idea when the war will

50:10

end. And in

50:13

a way you may be more helpful to

50:15

the family by creating

50:17

something where you are. And

50:21

then you have a younger son who if

50:23

he stays in another year may

50:26

decide that by then he's

50:28

almost finished high school, that that's where

50:30

he wants to stay. So the

50:33

whole destiny of the family, is

50:37

no longer clear, the

50:39

one, the way you thought it was going to

50:41

be. And

50:44

that means being open to very

50:46

different trajectories. Yeah.

50:50

Maybe one option is you do go home

50:52

for a couple of weeks, and

50:55

you may find clarity and you

50:57

may not. And then the question will

50:59

be, do I stay here or do I leave?

51:03

And then it will be my

51:05

health versus my relationship. And

51:09

all these impossible binaries. These

51:12

are impossible binaries. You

51:15

are a resourceful person

51:17

that starts with visions. Usually,

51:20

you start with a big vision. Maybe

51:22

this is an invitation to start with a

51:24

smaller vision and temporary vision,

51:27

a vision for the moment, another

51:29

vision for life. War

51:34

makes everything become in the

51:36

immediate. Because

51:41

you're if he lives day by day,

51:44

you're gonna be living day by day too in

51:46

some way. Your vision has to be a vision

51:48

for the moment. I I mean,

51:50

I am not saying this because I have certainty

51:53

and I know I'm trying to think out

51:55

loud with you. And

51:59

see if there's a way to take you out of your

52:01

victim's stuckness. Everybody

52:06

else seems to know where they're going, but me.

52:09

Everybody else has their partners,

52:11

but me. Everybody, you

52:13

know, during that thing and

52:15

you spend your day there. And that's

52:17

separately from him. That's

52:22

true.

52:24

When you say I'm that kind of person

52:26

and I start this way, this is how

52:28

I work. I would add

52:30

at the end of the sentence in

52:32

peaceful times. But

52:35

in war times, all

52:38

your definitions of yourself and

52:40

all the ways that you have constructed the

52:42

world and reality around

52:46

you changes.

52:49

Yeah. In a way, it's

52:52

about how you each help the other

52:55

in the world that the other is in.

53:00

And then once a week, you

53:02

have a date on a fantasy

53:04

island or a fantasy place where

53:07

you do not touch any of these

53:09

subjects because there's so

53:12

big and difficult and

53:15

painful, and they're

53:17

filled with uncertainty. Maybe

53:20

you don't talk. Yeah. Maybe

53:22

you listen to music together, maybe you

53:25

watch a movie, maybe you each

53:27

dance in your own places.

53:30

But with each other, crazy

53:33

stuff that people do when

53:35

they are enforced separation. You

53:38

like to dance? You both smiled

53:40

when I said that?

53:41

Yes. Yeah.

53:44

So Yeah. I

53:47

we danced together actually. When I'm when

53:49

I Alona, I just I

53:52

just saw, like, shit

53:54

dance and she

53:56

was beautiful dancing. I like dance.

53:59

She like dance. Mhmm. Beautiful.

54:01

So imagine We are crazy when dancing.

54:04

So imagine you even, you

54:06

know, you each make a playlist and you

54:08

just put the music on

54:10

and just dance for an hour instead

54:12

of talking about these impossible

54:17

huge existential quandaries.

54:20

Just to give yourself hope and

54:22

energy and poetry. It

54:27

doesn't answer the big questions. But

54:29

it keeps you connected at a

54:31

different level that is

54:33

also very important. Freedom

54:37

comes to our imagination, especially

54:41

when you can't feel free in reality.

54:44

Your mind and your body

54:46

are the two, you know,

54:48

means vehicles through which

54:50

you can stay connected with the world

54:52

of possibility. In

54:56

a reality in which it feels

54:58

that every possibility could

55:00

be life and death. You

55:02

also need places for joy

55:05

and for celebration and for

55:07

connection in the midst of the tragedy.

55:17

I sensed that there

55:19

was a need for permission. It's

55:22

the permission that

55:25

allows us to stay connected to

55:27

hope, to joy, to

55:29

celebration because

55:32

that's actually part of what

55:34

allows us to face the

55:36

war. And at

55:38

one moment, I thought, like, on what basis

55:40

do I know anything about this? I'm

55:43

not from there. I'm not living in a war.

55:45

I never have. But

55:47

my parents did. And my parents

55:49

each spent about four

55:51

to five years in concentration camps

55:54

and so did their entire group

55:57

of friends and community that I grew up

55:59

in. So I spent many years

56:01

asking How did you

56:03

do it? How did you wake up

56:05

in the morning? How did you maintain

56:07

hope? What kept you going? Did

56:10

you ever laugh? Did you ever have

56:12

fun? Those things that are

56:14

irreverent that seem to be taboo

56:16

to talk about when people are in the midst of

56:18

suffering. And yet,

56:21

it is humor and

56:23

playfulness and curiosity and

56:25

joy and all the strategies that

56:28

intensify joy. From

56:30

the sense of awe when you look at the sky

56:32

to the gratitude for what you still have

56:34

in front of you, to the people

56:37

that you think about that you hope to be unite

56:39

with, Those are very precise

56:42

strategies that are

56:44

beyond mindfulness and beyond breathing.

56:46

People have experienced existential

56:49

stress forever and have

56:51

developed long standing practices

56:54

and traditions to counter music,

56:57

prayer, singing, poetry,

57:00

composing in the midst of all of that,

57:02

creation, creativity, art.

57:05

All of those things are

57:07

the hardware for facing

57:11

hardships.

57:33

Esteraparell is the author of mating in captivity

57:35

and the state of affairs. She's also

57:37

the host of the podcast. Where should we begin

57:40

and how's work? Love

57:42

and war with Esther is produced by

57:44

magnificent noise in partnership with the international

57:47

on a studies program. This

57:49

episode would not have been possible without the

57:51

generous support of Elizabeth Third Wangler

57:53

and Yale Hautenberg. And

57:56

a very special thanks to one Ukraine.

57:59

One Ukraine is helping Ukrainian couples

58:01

and families affected by war by organizing

58:03

community support groups. Learn

58:06

more at one ukrain dot com

58:08

or to contribute to their

58:10

initiative, you can donate through Perel

58:12

at