0:03

I've been working and

0:05

speaking with couples for

0:08

decades, but over

0:10

the last years I've expanded the

0:12

concept of a pair so

0:14

that it involves friends, it

0:17

involves co-founders, podcast

0:19

hosts, creative pairs, and

0:22

Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are

0:24

one of these creative pairs, people

0:26

listen to them on

0:28

their podcast and what they

0:31

hear is two people each embodied

0:33

in their own points of views

0:35

who disagree out loud in front

0:37

of an audience into the microphone

0:40

and tease each other and challenge

0:42

each other and confront each other

0:44

and I thought gosh this is

0:46

a kind of modeling that is

0:48

so necessary at this moment. The

0:51

focus is often on troubles in

0:53

the relationship, problems, we don't

0:55

often actually get to see

0:57

what does the good couple,

1:00

the good partnership, the creative

1:02

pair that holds the polarity

1:04

actually sound like or

1:06

look like and this was my

1:08

focus on this conversation as I

1:10

met Kara and Scott. Season

1:25

two of Hulu's original series Life and Beth

1:27

is now streaming. John and I are getting married.

1:29

What? Oh my God. We're

1:32

so glad everybody could make it. Actually we

1:34

hope no one would. You love John because he

1:36

says exactly what he means. We're going to have

1:38

a family and it's going to be great. I'm

1:40

pregnant. From the mind of Amy Schumer. Let me

1:42

get to the important issues. How many drinks can

1:44

I really have? No alcohol, no

1:46

marijuana. Yeah don't. You wouldn't but

1:48

and you won't. And I won't.

1:51

Right. Life and Beth new season

1:53

now streaming only on Hulu. Roses

1:56

are red. This poem's a gimmick.

1:59

The marriage rate is falling. calling for black women

2:01

and the reasons are systemic.

2:03

The barriers might look different,

2:05

they might show up differently,

2:09

but they're facing the pain of it

2:11

in black women. Why

2:13

is the marriage rate so low? For

2:15

black women, that answer is

2:17

especially complicated. That's This Week

2:19

on the Weeds, new episodes every

2:22

Wednesday. She

2:26

never initiates sex, actually. Never,

2:29

ever. You'll be waiting a long time

2:31

for that, Scott Gail. That

2:34

probably, I could imagine,

2:36

is something that brings clarity

2:38

in the relationship between the two of you,

2:41

no? Definitely takes that element

2:43

off the table. Actually,

2:45

I get along well with men because of that, I

2:47

think. I really believe that. Because it

2:49

never hovers on the being sexualized. Not

2:52

your own. Not that it would, but yeah. In

2:55

this case, not that it would. I

2:57

thought of that when I ... We

3:01

had this brief exchange when you

3:03

interviewed me on Pivot

3:06

and we

3:08

were bantering about, we should have a session, we

3:11

should have a session. Then

3:13

I thought, why not, actually? Why not?

3:17

You have a public persona

3:19

as a pair on the podcast

3:21

and then you are also the

3:23

parents, so to speak, of your

3:25

team that works

3:27

for you and watches and

3:29

learns from your dynamic. Then

3:32

I thought, there's

3:34

so much to learn about people

3:36

who work together and get along. Probably

3:39

the best thing to ask as a start

3:41

is, what would make

3:43

this conversation useful, interesting,

3:47

productive for each of you? Scott,

3:49

go ahead. That's not fair.

3:53

I really come

3:55

at this. My

3:58

objective here is, I just want to express ... how

4:00

grateful I am. I want to cement

4:03

what I think are the positives in our relationship.

4:07

But yeah, for me, the only objective

4:09

I have is to use this as

4:11

a vehicle to express gratitude, to

4:15

use it as a moment to take a

4:17

pause and appreciate the relationship and appreciate just

4:19

how fortunate we are. That's

4:22

kind of it for me. I didn't

4:24

come to this with a

4:26

list of objectives. Wishes.

4:29

It doesn't have to be as

4:31

practical, but a wish. But

4:34

this is a wish, to be able to take a

4:36

moment of pause and express

4:38

my gratitude for... what would

4:42

you say? This has been a wonderful

4:44

relationship for me. This is... Three

4:47

years. Four years. Yeah, I

4:49

think it's been longer than that.

4:51

And I learn a great deal

4:53

from care, more personally, actually, than

4:55

professionally. And it's been

4:57

very rewarding for me, just

5:00

on a lot of levels. I

5:02

get to do something twice a week that I

5:04

not only love doing. I look forward to

5:06

our work relationship. I don't think of it

5:08

as work. It's also

5:11

financially exceptionally rewarding. I

5:14

wish I'd had this 20 years ago when I needed the money.

5:17

But it's given me... I have an objective around

5:19

reaching influence around some things I'm passionate

5:22

about. And this is provided that

5:24

platform. And that platform, I am

5:27

not a modest person. I think I'm remarkably

5:30

fucking talented. But this

5:32

platform is really mostly a function of

5:34

care's brand equity that she brought to

5:36

the table and her credibility. So

5:39

I'm grateful for that. I feel as if

5:41

a little bit I'm drafting off of care's

5:44

presence in the marketplace. Yeah,

5:46

just the word I would use is grateful.

5:48

And I wanted to articulate that gratitude. That's

5:50

something I'm not very good at. I make

5:52

the mistake of believing that if I feel

5:55

something, that other people telepathically register those feelings.

5:57

Like buying a birthday present but not giving it.

6:00

That's right. Yeah, i'm waiting for

6:02

my birthday present from scott this year That

6:04

was it by the way You just

6:07

got it. Thank you. That's very sweet scott.

6:09

Um, I have slightly different objectives. I'm really

6:11

interested in why our Relationship

6:13

resonates with so many people. Uh, i'm really

6:15

fascinated for some reason our relationship makes people

6:17

feel better I say this a lot on

6:20

the show, but on the way here I

6:22

ran into a young woman who stopped me

6:24

on the street and said yours and scott

6:26

relationship teaches me about relationships and I

6:29

said why and she goes I don't know. I

6:31

just feel better listening to it and she was

6:33

um, uh, she was she was very

6:36

emotional about it and then I was

6:38

waiting in line and an older woman said

6:40

to me Oh my god,

6:42

you and scott and it was so fascinating

6:45

it was I ended she was

6:47

she's an artist and she talked about listening to it

6:49

when she does art and she said it you know

6:51

She was very upset about The state

6:53

of the world, especially with israel and

6:55

said it makes me think a lot and

6:58

calms me down Which was really interesting

7:00

and I I was

7:02

like, well, you know, we don't always agree

7:04

and she was very much Um said that's

7:06

okay. I I learned how to disagree and

7:08

it was really interesting. So the relationship is

7:11

reached into people And

7:13

they learn how to get along with people

7:15

they may not agree with and I think

7:17

i'm really interested in why that is why

7:19

what sometimes it's chemistry, of course, there's chemistry

7:22

but What is what

7:24

are we doing specifically that's causing

7:26

that? Let's

7:29

put that question out. I mean I have

7:31

immediate thoughts too, but I think that One

7:34

way to start scott would actually maybe

7:36

go to i'm actually more thankful for

7:38

the things that I have learned from

7:41

her personally than professionally Meaning

7:43

something is seeping into the way

7:46

that we register each other And

7:48

that then translates in the way

7:51

that we have conversations with each

7:53

other can argue disagree banter

7:56

and The effect of that is

7:58

what people? get is

8:00

they see people who are arguing,

8:03

but they're not hurting each other.

8:05

They're not fighting. They

8:07

are elevating each other for the

8:09

sake of the topic that they

8:11

are discussing and showing

8:13

tension, healthy tension. The

8:17

way I think of it is that, I mean,

8:20

it sounds strange, but Karen, I are what Washington

8:22

DC is supposed to be. And

8:25

that is you're supposed to send different

8:27

viewpoints such that in a civil manner,

8:31

under the auspices of connective tissues

8:33

around fidelity and affection for our

8:35

country and our Commonwealth, that

8:37

we have civil and

8:39

robust debate

8:41

and argument such that you can craft

8:44

better solutions. And we do

8:46

that. And we're here to save democracy. But

8:48

we, I think what we engage in

8:50

is what most people think of as that, what

8:53

a deliberative body is supposed to accomplish. You take

8:55

people with different backgrounds, maybe

8:57

different interests, and they talk

9:00

about an issue and they see

9:02

each other's points, they have empathy, they're civil, they

9:04

demonstrate affection for each other, even

9:07

though they disagree, and they

9:09

come away with a more informed kind of,

9:11

better union. I mean, that is supposed

9:14

to be our core, our confidence as

9:16

a species, is a

9:18

form of cooperation is debate, evidence and argument. I

9:20

think we're the only species that can do that.

9:23

And we do that. It's,

9:25

we also don't, I mean, a couple of things. None

9:27

of us is so wed to our principles that we're

9:29

not willing to acknowledge the other's points. And

9:32

I think that people like that. But

9:35

what you just said is very interesting. You said,

9:37

we show one relationship between

9:40

two people, but we actually

9:42

model what we expect from

9:44

a nation and

9:47

from a government. And there's something

9:49

bigger that exists between us that

9:51

transcends the two of us. And I think that's

9:53

a very important point. So

9:56

when we're talking about the things the government's supposed to be

9:58

wrestling with, we talk about political. issues,

10:00

we talk about big tech, we talk about economics.

10:04

And I do think that people want

10:06

kind of a safe space to explore

10:08

friction and disagreement without people

10:11

donking on each other, being mean or

10:13

feeling as if somebody has to be

10:15

the clear winner or I mean, there's

10:18

a certain reason why we're near a spore and

10:20

for how course our discourse has become. But

10:22

it's not just public, it's, you know, families and,

10:24

you know, not being there was a very

10:26

funny thing I saw, it was a

10:29

Reddit thing is my parents believe in QAnon, my

10:31

kids love Hamas, I don't know what I'm going

10:33

to do. You know, it was

10:35

kind of funny way to articulate

10:38

it. It's that people are spending

10:40

very hard time personally to get

10:43

to agree, to come to any

10:45

agreement, or to disagree in a

10:47

way that everybody can walk away,

10:49

you know, come without feeling terrible.

10:51

And I think it's because online

10:54

has infected offline,

10:57

rather than vice versa, right? Things

10:59

you wouldn't do. I mean, this is not

11:01

a big revelation. But it really people feel

11:03

dunking is okay, the way they behave online.

11:07

Scott said, of course, it's crude, it's

11:10

reductive, it's, did you

11:12

get that person? And I

11:14

engage in it too. And that's, but I don't

11:16

know if we can, I don't take it offline,

11:19

the way a lot of our culture has started

11:21

to do. It puts people in, in boxes

11:24

they cannot escape from. I

11:27

mean, there's a word that

11:29

you didn't use much yet, which

11:31

is trust, that you won't throw

11:33

each other under the bus. And

11:35

that you like each other as people.

11:38

And so that maintains

11:40

the connective tissue. I think that one

11:42

of the sentences people are experiencing the

11:44

most in the attacks online at this

11:46

moment is shame on you. Yes.

11:49

Very much so. It drives me crazy. For

11:51

whichever thing you think or not think or

11:53

do or don't do, it's shame on you.

11:56

And do better. Say

11:58

that? Do better. That's the one

12:00

I... Be a leader. That's what

12:03

I get a lot. Yeah.

12:05

So I think that what

12:08

people experience when they hear you is,

12:10

first of all, they see two people

12:13

who like each other. In

12:15

a way, that's something that is often described

12:17

of what used to exist in Congress as

12:19

well. People disagreed, but they liked each other.

12:22

They knew this is a good person. That

12:25

it didn't destroy... Your beliefs were

12:27

not the only way by which people

12:30

judged you. They also looked

12:32

at how you relate to people at what

12:34

you do. Not that you are

12:37

a religious person and a secular person, but that

12:39

you are a good person. Wherever

12:41

you get your values in humanism or in religion.

12:46

When people listen to you, your

12:48

friction and

12:50

the strength with which you each hold

12:53

your positions and at the same time

12:55

engage in the dialogue with the other.

12:57

It's the opposite of the

13:00

conflict avoidance that many people engage in at this

13:02

moment. If I don't fully agree with you, I

13:04

don't talk to you. Yeah. Or

13:07

you don't bring it up and you secretly see. I think

13:09

a lot of people secretly see. Or

13:12

they feel like they can get in trouble for saying things. That's...

13:15

If you talk about trust, sometimes we

13:17

get into trouble for things we say, but

13:19

I don't think it feels unsafe

13:21

with each other. Right?

13:24

To express... Even when it's testy,

13:26

we've had some test exchanges. Trans

13:29

was one. There's not that

13:31

many that I can recall, but we've

13:33

had some testy ones and somehow we've

13:35

survived it without disrespect. I

13:39

don't know where people lost that ability. Maybe they

13:41

were holding it all in and now have been

13:43

able to vomit up whatever comes out of their

13:45

mouth. Or they sort of lost... It's

13:49

not really empathy. It's not really the word. I

13:53

don't know. It's just how you were raised. I don't

13:55

know how else to put it. Like, although

13:57

I wasn't raised that way. Why

14:00

did you, well actually I'm very curious because

14:02

I don't know myself, what is your background

14:04

for each of you? I

14:06

think you know this, Mr. But my dad died when

14:08

I was very little. Yeah. One side

14:10

of my family is Catholic, Italian. The other

14:12

side is sort of early

14:15

American Baptist and

14:19

much more traditional Southern.

14:22

And my dad died, who was from

14:24

that side of the family. And my

14:27

mom remarried to a terrible person. And

14:29

I would say not the

14:31

best parent, was not there for me and

14:34

my brothers, but try their best I

14:36

guess with a limited emotional range

14:38

she had. And after

14:41

that, my dad dying, I think we

14:43

kind of raised ourselves in a lot of ways. Although

14:46

I had the support of a great grandmother

14:48

who was wonderful. And my grandmother was too. Yeah,

14:51

my grandmother was really a savior on

14:54

my mom's side. But I loved my grandmother on my

14:56

dad's side, but we didn't see her as much. And

15:02

if you think about the strengths and the

15:04

resources that you bring to your interpersonal relations,

15:08

what are some of the things you would say you honed

15:10

in at home? And by

15:12

the way, the resources don't always come from

15:14

great stuff. No, it usually doesn't, does it?

15:17

I can handle it and nothing much bothers me.

15:20

I think there's a, highly functional

15:22

is often a byproduct of early death

15:24

of a parent. I think

15:26

I'm highly functional. And so I don't get

15:28

too spun around or on it. I

15:31

don't get, it's not

15:33

that I don't lose my temper, but I don't, it's

15:35

hard to get me bothered that much. And

15:38

I always just move on to the next thing,

15:40

move on, move on, move on, just like, let's

15:42

keep going. And I have an expression I have

15:44

on one of my walls here, the chance favors

15:46

those in motion. So it's always a moving forward

15:49

kind of thing. Not in certain. If

15:51

something bothers you, you tell him. Oh

15:53

yeah. Or you wait. Oh no, I tell

15:55

him. It's me at two in the morning,

15:57

so wake me up. You need to know.

16:00

immediately. And if

16:02

you need help, you turn to

16:04

him? Yes, actually. I've asked him for a

16:06

lot of stuff. I don't need a lot of

16:08

help, honestly. I don't think you ask me for

16:10

a lot of care, actually. Which

16:13

is exactly why I asked you a question

16:15

about his, because they told me in a

16:17

roundabout way, Scott. I do when I have

16:20

legal things or investment things.

16:22

I ask him, you

16:25

know, I don't know if I ask him parenting tips.

16:28

But I would, I suppose. But you actually

16:30

know, he helped my son a great deal. He

16:33

gets shy about it. But he really I asked him

16:35

to talk to my son about college. And he he

16:38

was a really important between him and

16:40

my brother, the most important people in

16:42

helping my son figure out where he wanted to go to

16:44

school. I would even say

16:46

Scott was more influential. My son talks about him

16:49

quite a bit, my 18 year old. And so

16:51

both my sons really like talking to Scott.

16:54

So I would I would avail myself to

16:57

not for me myself, but for my kids

16:59

for sure. Yeah. He's been a real asset

17:01

to to their lives.

17:03

Beautiful. Well, would you how would

17:05

you describe? It's good. Described

17:08

by that. Just basic demographic

17:12

background. Oh, origin

17:14

story. Yeah, I was raised

17:17

by a single mother who lived and died a secretary

17:19

a lot of my life. Hands

17:21

down like the singular most important influence in

17:23

my life. Blessed to

17:26

be born in California in the 60s is a

17:28

straight white male. Was she

17:30

also a can handle it all? My

17:33

mom? Yeah. Oh, yeah,

17:35

my mom was very productive, worked hard. I

17:37

like to work. And I think I picked

17:39

up on that early from her. She was

17:41

worked very hard to

17:43

make sure we were economically viable. Kind of

17:46

an I would say we were upper lower

17:48

middle class. You know, my household income was

17:50

never more than I think we peaked at $40,000.

17:52

But, you know, born in

17:54

California at exactly the right time with exactly

17:56

the right skin tone,

17:58

sexual orientation. I mean,

18:01

just had this, like

18:04

the full force, gale force winds of the

18:06

greatest economy at the greatest time and the

18:08

greatest state. I mean, I

18:10

used to my narrative used to be a son

18:12

of a single mother, like, aren't I

18:14

awesome that I overcame these things. And

18:17

then as I got older and matured, I realized that, yeah,

18:20

I wasn't in the 99.9 percentile was in the 99th. Because

18:24

of, you know, I got

18:26

to go to UCLA for free, I

18:28

got into UCLA. I mean, just when I didn't

18:31

deserve to. So I had

18:33

my background, it on

18:35

on from the curb, it looks like it

18:37

was not difficult, but a little bit challenged.

18:39

But the reality was absent

18:41

a male role model, I didn't have that.

18:43

But absent that, I consider

18:46

my background remarkably fortunate

18:49

and blessed and I

18:51

got very lucky. I had a really

18:53

good reference group. My friends as a

18:55

young man were always very impressive, ambitious,

18:58

hardworking, good people. And that

19:01

was really kind of my family, if you will,

19:03

I was an only child. So my friends were

19:05

really my family. That's, and I was really fortunate.

19:08

Your conversations about men. We do. You've

19:11

never said this to me, but I've inferred

19:14

it from the way that you talk about

19:16

young men and the need for young men

19:18

for solid friendships, the good circle in which

19:20

they evolve, etc. So it makes sense. Yeah,

19:23

that's my practice. It's not my prayer. But every night

19:25

before I go to sleep, I call two friends and

19:27

I rotate them. But I don't text

19:29

them. But I call and I have a live conversation with

19:31

two friends every night. And I've done that six and seven

19:34

nights for the last 30 years. Wow.

19:36

And I rotate I go, I

19:38

go down. Yeah, so

19:40

I was very fortunate, very blessed around that. But you

19:43

know, just pretty, I was described

19:45

my could you and your mom are you? When

19:48

you Oh, yeah, I mean, could you spar? Could

19:50

you? Oh, sure. I mean, I think

19:52

I went through I think a lot of young men go through

19:54

that separating from the pack, I kind of turned

19:56

into an asshole when I was a teenager, I was I was never mean

19:58

to my mom, but I wasn't and as kind as I could have been.

20:01

But I moved back in with my mother. I

20:04

actually lived with my mom for a year when she

20:06

was dying. That made us very close. It

20:09

was me and her against the world. That

20:11

was very formative for me. But

20:14

yeah, we were, I mean, other than that like 17 year

20:17

old phase, we were like not very nice such that it

20:19

makes it easier to leave home. I

20:21

say now like nothing good happens because

20:23

my, nothing really good feels

20:26

cemented. Because anytime something

20:28

good happened to me, I would call my mom, literally

20:31

anything. Oh, I met a nice woman

20:33

at a coffee shop and I got her number. Oh,

20:35

I just got my first bonus from Morgan

20:37

Stanley. Like anything good. And

20:39

now not there, right? So it doesn't feel

20:42

like good stuff really happens. It's weird. It's

20:44

like it doesn't really happen because he's not there to hear

20:47

it. You can call me Scott. There

20:49

you go. I occasionally go. No,

20:52

you do. It's so funny. I was just thinking

20:54

you grew up a single mom. I grew up very wealthy, I would

20:56

say, which my brothers

20:58

and I have tried to escape because we're

21:00

very hard workers. We hated that, the

21:03

step up. You are a hard worker. And

21:05

all my brothers are like that. We did

21:07

not like the trappings of wealth at all.

21:10

And did not enjoy it. We

21:12

didn't relish in it or become lazy because

21:14

of it, which was

21:17

interesting. Because it's easy not to

21:19

think about money when you have money, but we really

21:21

don't, we really work hard.

21:23

We really like work and earning things on

21:25

our own. So that's interesting. But you're bringing

21:27

it in a very necessary

21:29

way in the economic realm. I'm

21:31

also thinking simply when you

21:34

describe dad wasn't there, there was no

21:36

dad, there was grandma, mom was somewhat

21:38

present. I learned to fend for myself.

21:40

I learned to just know I've got

21:43

my own legs to stand on, I

21:45

have to be self-reliant. But

21:48

you probably called grandma when great things

21:50

happen to you too. Yes. And

21:53

so you have that combination between connection

21:55

and self-reliance. And we talk every night,

21:57

I would say almost every night. her

22:00

life for sure. Yeah,

22:02

I know her phone is one of the few phone numbers

22:05

I know is hers by

22:07

heart, right? You know, you don't of course, nobody remembers

22:09

phone numbers anymore. But that's what I knew

22:11

by heart. And then

22:14

I listened to Scott describe, you know,

22:16

calling mom, but also, you know,

22:19

it's easier to be what did you call a 17 year

22:21

old asshole when you actually

22:23

have someone holding the fort? Yeah,

22:26

yeah. And you can go, you know, and

22:28

the relationship is solid and steady. So you

22:30

can be bratty for a few

22:32

years, you know, and I'm thinking that,

22:35

I mean, I'm wondering to what extent the

22:37

sum of that also exist

22:40

in your relationship, these formative

22:42

experiences that you have, like

22:44

being with a person being with a

22:46

woman with strong opinions, or who holds

22:48

things on her own, who works very

22:50

hard, it's familiar to you.

22:53

I'm your mother, Scott. Scott,

22:56

I am your mother. You

22:58

didn't say this, but it's

23:00

not I'm your mother, but it's more

23:02

that you have learned to

23:04

not be threatened. You've learned

23:06

to enjoy actually even to welcome behaviors

23:08

that in a different context are experienced.

23:11

You know, I can imagine some people

23:13

listening to the two of you and

23:15

saying, what an amazing pair, they go

23:17

at it and they like it, etc.

23:20

And I can imagine other people listening

23:22

to you or even working for you,

23:24

for that matter, even on your team,

23:27

who get tense when they see that

23:29

tension and that animosity or that sparring

23:31

come up because that for

23:33

them was not at all something that said

23:36

you're safe here, you can fight, but rather

23:38

you're not safe here, don't fight. Yeah,

23:41

my I mean, I've never

23:43

been in therapy, but it's one thing

23:45

that's very obvious about the relationships most

23:47

important to me. My

23:50

key relationships are all very

23:53

my closest friends are either

23:55

gay or very feminine. I'm

23:58

drawn to people who take care of me. And

24:00

I mean all of my best

24:02

relationships are basically some version of Homer Simpson

24:05

and March sent in March I'm

24:08

the unwashed idiot

24:11

fratbro, and they are

24:13

this caring decent person all

24:15

of my closest friends are like

24:19

gentle Nice

24:22

loving people that's who I'm drawn up always

24:24

been drawn to I have no idea if

24:26

I'm trying to create What makes

24:28

them want to you? and

24:30

they're drawn to me because I get I think I

24:33

provide a certain level of comfort and What

24:36

it is, but every one of my close

24:38

friendships is basically

24:40

a very gentle Loving

24:42

person and I'm the irreverent

24:45

aggressive obnoxious one Yeah, but

24:48

I don't think you're as bad as you think you

24:50

are you know what I mean? I think there's a

24:52

part. Yeah, it is. It's a little cosplay that that's

24:54

your idea of yourself Often when people

24:56

do come up to me if they don't like something you said

24:58

I Constantly say Scott

25:00

is an incredibly kind person I think

25:02

you have to you know and because

25:05

he struggles with stuff that should be a

25:07

problem for you Why because he's expressing struggling

25:09

and so once they start to think that

25:11

way they go oh that's I hadn't thought

25:13

of it that way No,

25:15

I think you're not you're very generous and

25:18

kind person with your time and your space

25:20

And I think you you like being the bad boy, but

25:22

you're not really bad I know a lot

25:24

of bad bad people and you're not one of them

25:28

I One

25:31

thing stands out to me in

25:34

their interaction is that they have

25:36

each other's back They

25:38

can argue They

25:40

banter, but they prop each

25:43

other up Cara says

25:45

I don't think you're as bad as you

25:47

think you are they hold a mirror to

25:49

each other to see Themselves

25:52

in a more holistic way,

25:55

so sometimes it's blunt It's

25:57

sometimes very honest. It's

25:59

always caring and it

26:02

invites the other person to actually

26:04

see themselves with greater honesty. We

26:13

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28:24

begin. Sometimes

28:29

people present themselves as tough. Yeah,

28:34

so the purpose of covering

28:38

what often is a very tender, gentle.

28:41

I think you're talking about me. I am actually tough,

28:43

but I also can be tender. It's okay to be

28:46

tough. One time I was telling Scott, I

28:48

was talking to someone who was in therapy every day

28:50

of the week. You know, I guess when you do

28:52

that, when you're in deep psycho analysis,

28:54

and I said, there's a lot of dice, and

28:56

I don't think I know, have that many things

28:58

to talk about about myself. And they said, you're

29:01

blocking. That's right. Isn't that the

29:03

word? They said, you're blocking. I said, well, it's working.

29:05

Repressing, repressing. Yes, I said, it's working. I'm very happy

29:07

and you seem miserable. I

29:09

don't know what to tell you. But now I

29:11

can stay happy. I'm like, I don't think so.

29:13

I think I actually am happy, but okay, sure.

29:16

I have, I mean, we've met maybe three or

29:18

four times that we have spoken together. I

29:21

don't think of you as tough, but I

29:23

do sometimes think you can be intimidating. Scott,

29:26

who presents as tough, doesn't intimidate me

29:28

at all. Yeah. Whereas. Hey,

29:33

for you, however, do intimidate me sometimes.

29:36

Really? Why? Because

29:38

I'm not fully sure how you register me. So

29:40

I don't really know. It's

29:43

like, and with him, it's easier

29:45

to see that under this cat-hat-hat,

29:47

there is something, you know, that

29:50

smile and I go, okay, got it,

29:53

got it. Yeah. But

29:56

I don't know if nobody has told you that you

29:58

can be. I'm not as much of an- open

30:00

wound. That's absolutely true. I'm just not.

30:02

Maybe I have a scar, but I

30:04

certainly am not. Again, it's

30:06

the moving on thing. I can always figure out a way

30:09

to get out of it. I think about that a lot

30:12

because how do people survive difficult

30:14

crises, right? Depending on what the

30:17

crisis happens to be. Well,

30:19

years ago, I did an outward bound. There was

30:21

a couple of them actually, and you go in

30:23

the wilderness. I was

30:26

very calm in crisis, like extraordinary.

30:28

I was surprised how calm I

30:30

was. I didn't panic. I got

30:32

calmer and calmer as the situation got worse and

30:34

worse. Sometimes in

30:36

the face of threat, you

30:39

can have fight, flight, freeze,

30:41

or fix. Yeah, I

30:43

think I'm the last one. The fix

30:45

is the one that's often not added,

30:47

so you become instrumental. You roll up

30:49

your sleeves and you get to work.

30:52

Right. That's not necessarily a good thing

30:54

because a lot of people, my

30:56

wife thinks about things a lot. I'm

30:58

always like, let's just move on. Just make a

31:01

decision and go. It's not going to get any

31:03

better by mulling it. I don't mull a lot.

31:06

Perhaps I should, but I just don't have time for

31:08

it. No, but how are you with those who do?

31:11

I'm a little impatient, I would say. I

31:13

think you end up in the same place. It

31:16

just seems like it's painful when people do that. The

31:19

worry makes me think it'll

31:21

take days off their lives. I don't know. I

31:23

don't have that kind of time. I always

31:26

feel like I don't have that kind of time. Look,

31:29

I love the way that people

31:31

that don't mull and don't worry,

31:33

it's a very nicely packaged argument

31:35

for me. It's not a good

31:37

thing to do. No, I get

31:39

it. I get it. I get

31:42

it. I'm not going to be the one to convince you that

31:44

you... Oh, well, my wife, when I

31:46

met her, she says, what are you, neurotic? I

31:48

said, I can't think of anything. I like to

31:50

clean, I guess. I don't know, but

31:53

it calms me down. I

31:55

don't find that neurotic. Organized specific

31:58

tasks with the... beginning, a middle,

32:00

and an end. And you don't have

32:02

to think about anything else. Right, that's exactly

32:05

what I think. Meaning has very powerful function

32:07

in that sense. Are you

32:09

similar in the not mulling, not

32:11

worrying, not ruminating? Scott, I think

32:13

we're mulls a lot, don't you

32:15

Scott? Yeah, I mean,

32:17

I struggle with depression and anger, so I

32:19

have a tendency to live way too much

32:21

in the past. I'm hands

32:23

down, 110% of my anger and mulling is on me, it's

32:29

focused on me. I do think

32:31

I do try to be very generous. I have

32:33

this thing, don't keep score, decide what kind of

32:36

husband, father, son you wanna

32:38

be, and be that person

32:40

and don't contribute

32:42

that to the relationship, registering

32:45

their contribution and keep score. I just don't do

32:47

that anymore. But I

32:49

am very hard on myself and constantly

32:51

disappointed in myself, constantly feel like I've

32:54

come up short on everything I should

32:56

have done, how I

32:58

perform on anything. I'm just

33:00

constantly disappointed in myself

33:03

and can't get over it and can

33:05

never forgive myself. And

33:07

it really turns on me. I get angry

33:09

at myself and it's like, my

33:12

blood turns to acid and it just registers

33:14

this emotional toll and I go into these

33:16

very dark downward spirals. And I talk about

33:18

that on the show. I think a lot

33:20

about, I've

33:22

made a living basically running my brain to old white

33:25

guys to say, what's the opportunity with your business? That's

33:27

how I've made my living for 40 years. And

33:30

the white spaces

33:32

we fill are the following from

33:35

just a pure economic or marketing standpoint. And I think

33:37

why people are drawn to the show in addition to

33:39

the chemistry. Cara occupies

33:42

a white space. There aren't

33:44

that many women, full stop,

33:46

who come from a background in journalism, who

33:48

are physically smaller,

33:52

who are from a vulnerable community,

33:54

the LGBTQ community that are

33:56

in people's faces and giving

33:58

very forceful. thoughtful opinions,

34:01

interrupting people, not

34:04

taking shit. That's just

34:06

a white space there aren't that many people in from

34:08

that background. And women

34:12

and men, but mostly women, but a

34:14

lot of men too, really respond well

34:16

to that. They're like, that's

34:19

what I wanted to do. Everybody talks

34:21

about it, but not that many people

34:23

of that demographic behave that way. So

34:26

that's the white space that Kara fills, you

34:28

know? And so people

34:30

are really drawn to that power, that

34:32

strength, that courage. I'm

34:34

a straight white male that shows his emotions. That's

34:39

the white space. And it's

34:41

an enormous white space. I fucking cry

34:43

all the time on our show. And

34:46

that is hands down when I

34:48

get the most, and it's totally

34:50

organic, it is not staged at

34:52

all. I'm embarrassed when I do

34:54

it, I don't plan on it. You

34:58

know, it's very authentic. And I cannot

35:00

tell you how many men I hear

35:02

from. Because you reveal

35:05

a side of

35:07

masculinity that is often so

35:09

hidden and unacknowledged and yet

35:11

quite present and real. And

35:13

all men, there's so many men who

35:16

literally look at it like a skill that they

35:18

would kill to have. I

35:20

hear from these guys like my whole life,

35:22

I've wanted to express that kind

35:25

of emotion. And I just can't. And

35:28

at the same time, you

35:30

can just feel a lot of women, and I

35:32

think a lot of people who feel like they've

35:34

taken shit and listened to men talk over them,

35:36

man-splain them, not gotten back

35:38

into people's faces, feel

35:41

that Kara's sort of their

35:43

warrior queen, right? So

35:46

I think we both occupy spaces that

35:48

gives people, makes

35:50

people feel seen and heard and emboldens

35:52

them. Yeah, they're aspirational for them.

35:55

Yeah, I think definitely Scott's vulnerability is

35:57

incredibly attractive. I don't think it's. Again,

36:00

it's not artifice in any way and

36:02

sometimes I often tell them just give yourself a break like

36:04

stop being so hard on yourself Why don't you give yourself

36:06

a break is something I say a lot to him But

36:09

I think people do respond because men

36:11

really I think what he's talking about

36:13

is vulnerability of men that never gets

36:16

it It is often unexpressed men

36:18

struggle with it because they have a certain,

36:21

you know Persona

36:23

they meet need to maintain and crying

36:25

they can't imagine crying in front of

36:27

publicly, right? No, no the

36:30

socialization of men is more

36:33

geared towards Story season and

36:35

the other side is a woman

36:37

that maybe doesn't cry is also She's

36:40

not you know Bill Ackman or Elon

36:42

Musk said she has heart-teasing with hate

36:44

and she laughs at him like she's

36:46

not like Crumpled down in a heap

36:48

crying. Oh, no a powerful man has

36:50

said something tough to me And I

36:53

think that's something that people appreciate system

36:55

office They're both opposite what you might

36:57

expect from people. Well if someone described our

36:59

backgrounds and our demographics and our and Then

37:02

said this show regularly has one person

37:04

turning into a chocolate mess and the

37:06

other person comforts her They

37:09

wouldn't guess who it is They

37:12

wouldn't be like, oh, it's the six-two guys it

37:14

they wouldn't they wouldn't be like, oh, yeah,

37:16

that's the guy That's a chocolate mess all the

37:19

time Like there's just so many stereotypes and

37:21

expectations around people based on how they look

37:23

or their gender or their backgrounds or whatever

37:25

it is Tell

37:28

me something when you describe

37:30

I grapple more with depression

37:33

and anger and Self-doubt

37:36

is the presence of kaha palliative

37:38

for you. Oh Yeah,

37:42

I very much appreciate. Yeah, and that's how I

37:44

get out of my phone since I spend time

37:46

with other people For

37:49

me, it's really my boys Like

37:51

I've struggled for some reason the past week. I

37:53

don't know what it is. I can feel it

37:55

and I have this whole method I I

37:58

start working out

38:00

once or twice a day. I like

38:03

she cleans you work out. Yeah,

38:06

I will start working out. But more than anything, I've

38:08

tried to be around family and I try to be

38:10

very affectionate with my boy. Like I go to sleep

38:12

with my son when he goes to sleep. I just

38:14

lie next to him. I find that very, very restorative

38:16

for me. But

38:19

yeah, it's it's I've

38:21

learned to manage it without pharmaceuticals.

38:24

True connection. Yeah, it's

38:27

the way I describe it as memalia,

38:29

I just turned to my mammal self,

38:32

right? Yeah, but

38:34

because there is just no excuse. And again, it gets

38:36

me angry at myself. I have

38:38

blessings the size of Mars, I have moves of

38:40

a mood the size of an anthill. And

38:43

it makes no stack ranking your tragedy like you

38:46

can't stack rank like, Oh, that person should

38:48

be less. You know, you don't

38:50

get to be as unhappy because you

38:52

have all these things. I don't think they ever equal

38:54

up. I don't think if you have blessings, I

38:57

mean, I don't think they ever equal up. I think one of the

38:59

things that Scott,

39:02

perhaps hasn't experienced as much as I have his

39:04

life is unfair. Like I've had a lot of

39:06

life is unfair. I always call myself

39:09

an optimistic pessimist. I

39:11

expect the worst and I'm surprised by when

39:13

it turns out, right? You know, I would

39:16

say he is a pessimistic op,

39:18

he really thinks the world is a good place.

39:20

You know what I mean? Like in his heart

39:22

of hearts, he thinks that it's better than it

39:25

is. And I'm never surprised by it. But

39:27

he thinks that the world is a

39:29

better place than the place inside of

39:32

him. Yes. Yes. And he often,

39:34

and he describes himself as

39:36

prone to self-doubt. And

39:39

so a collaboration, a good

39:41

collaboration becomes compensatory

39:43

for the self-doubt. It's

39:46

like when a show

39:48

with you takes care of

39:50

a lot of the rumination. I mean, he may still

39:52

ask himself, did I talk too much? Did I talk

39:54

okay? Did I say the right thing to do? You

39:56

know, but fundamentally your presence.

40:00

And the fact that that's not something you grapple

40:02

with gives him

40:04

more confidence that it was okay,

40:06

rather than that. More

40:08

to the point is that someone he respects

40:11

thinks something he said was wise or surprising.

40:13

And that's one of the things that

40:15

attracted me to Scott is one

40:18

of the things he does almost continually

40:20

on the show is surprise me with insight.

40:22

And I think he likes

40:24

that I am, I think he likes that

40:27

I think he's smart. Right? Because I do.

40:29

Yes, because of the counter voice to the

40:31

voice of doubt inside. Right, but I think

40:33

he thinks someone really smart thinks

40:36

I'm smart. If it didn't come from someone

40:38

smart, it would have no effect. Right. That's

40:40

what I mean. And I think I genuinely am always like, Oh,

40:42

I didn't think of that. Like the other day he did something,

40:44

I was like, Oh, I thought halfway through. And then he thought

40:47

the rest of the way through. So it's, you

40:49

need other people to get you to the next

40:51

level. And I think that works really well here,

40:54

for sure. What I like about

40:56

what you're highlighting both is that it's

40:59

become a little easy to describe

41:01

you from the angle of it's

41:03

the pair that knows to fight well and disagree

41:06

with each other and still like each other. I

41:08

think what you just described is a whole other

41:10

layer of a what

41:12

you represent to society in

41:15

terms of how you each are,

41:17

but also the kind of complementarity,

41:19

you know, when you haven't said something that

41:21

he says, you say, he just finished the

41:24

thought, but you don't berate yourself on it.

41:26

Because I never would have thought of it.

41:28

Like that's the thing is like, it's a

41:30

different brain. And I'm like, Oh, I see

41:33

how then you see around

41:35

someone that like, see something way

41:37

ahead of you. And

41:39

I have such a test for that. It's I'm

41:41

like, Oh, now I see it's like when you

41:43

see one of those pictures where you can't see

41:45

the face, that's sometimes what it feels like. I'm

41:47

like, Oh, there's the face, of course. And

41:49

then you're like, Oh, I hadn't thought about that.

41:52

And I like that I really find that helpful. And

41:55

it happens to Scott all the time, which

41:57

is why it's a really, I'm often surprised

42:00

them off and I didn't think

42:02

that way. It doesn't necessarily change

42:04

my viewpoint all the time, but

42:06

it changes the

42:08

way I think about something. And I

42:11

think that's helpful because I get

42:13

uncertain, which is good, which is, I think, a good

42:16

thing. What

42:20

Cara highlights here is

42:22

something that is emphasized in

42:24

the research of John and

42:27

Julie Gottman about relationships, which

42:29

is the importance of being able

42:31

to receive influence from

42:34

the other person in a

42:36

relationship. The willingness, the

42:38

openness to be, shape,

42:41

expanded, changed through

42:43

another. And that receiving

42:45

influence is beautifully modeled right

42:47

here. There

42:50

is still so much to talk

42:52

about. We need to take a brief break, so

42:55

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45:14

Is what you have with him unique, you think? I

45:17

think it's unusual. I don't get surprised that often.

45:20

I like being surprised by people, and Scott is constantly surprising

45:22

me. Take that answer. He

45:28

surprises me. Do

45:31

you think that your relationship is replicable? Have

45:35

you met other co-founders,

45:38

co-creators, co-leaders,

45:40

collaborators that have inspired

45:42

you? Different

45:44

models, but that you say they too, they have this.

45:48

Because so many people have

45:50

to work with people, and they're all looking for

45:52

a way to do it in

45:54

a way that is not just better,

45:56

but what you're describing is, Scott, satisfying,

45:58

nurturing, joyful, looking for you. I mean

46:00

those are beautiful terms to

46:02

describe going to work. You know, you have

46:04

to find your co-founder, right? I think co-founders

46:07

are always better, honestly, when I see companies

46:09

that the individual founders tend to be really

46:12

narcissistic in a way that's eventually

46:15

problematic. I've

46:17

always had partners. I really like, I think

46:19

it's much more rewarding to build a company with other people.

46:23

I think it's fun. I think it's fun to build something

46:25

together. I think it's fun to make money together. I just

46:27

find it more rewarding. I would never want to do this

46:29

kind of stuff alone because it's like, who do you celebrate

46:31

with? And who

46:33

takes care of yourself doubt? There

46:35

you go. But in terms of, like

46:38

I was thinking if, when

46:40

you went in for heart surgery, someone

46:43

said, well, what happens to pivot if

46:45

care doesn't make it out of surgery?

46:48

And they're like, who's

46:51

the next co-host? Who's your co-host? And I'm

46:53

like, if care is gone, when care is

46:55

gone, pivot is done. See,

46:59

I would immediately replace you. I know. But

47:02

I won't say that. But me,

47:06

I don't have the energy to recreate

47:08

the relationship. And

47:12

another question I had for you, Scott, is actually

47:14

for both of you, but it came up as

47:16

you were talking. In what

47:19

way has your professional relationship

47:21

with Cara? Changed

47:24

you to be a different or

47:26

a better partner with your wife? How

47:33

has this relationship informed, inspired?

47:37

I don't think it's made me a better spouse. I

47:39

think it's made me a better family person. I've

47:42

always come from this attitude of I'm working

47:44

so hard for the

47:46

family. And

47:48

don't you appreciate how hard I'm working?

47:51

I'm working this hard for us and

47:54

a lot of self-pity. And

47:56

care works as hard or harder than I do. I

48:00

do and there's very few people who work as hard as I

48:02

do. And Kara always finds

48:04

time for her family. And I have

48:06

never heard any of that self-pity.

48:11

And that's very motivating for me because

48:13

it's something I don't like about myself.

48:16

And when I see someone who has as much

48:18

pressure on her from a relationship standpoint and an

48:20

economic standpoint as Kara does, Kara's got a lot

48:22

of dependence. And I've

48:24

never heard you complain once. I've never

48:26

heard you complain once. Part of this

48:29

are the socially sanctioned scripts. It

48:32

is very cultural. You are, you know, you

48:35

were talking earlier about how both of

48:38

you kind of transcend some gender role

48:40

expectations. But in this

48:42

one, you fall right in the middle

48:44

of it. I'm working so hard, I

48:46

justify my absence, I justify my lateness,

48:49

I justify my lack of availability.

48:51

You should be thankful. You should realize how

48:53

much I'm doing. I'm not doing this for

48:55

myself. I'm doing this for the family. I

48:57

mean, that's like such a canned script and

48:59

very gender specific. And a lot of it's bullshit

49:02

because most of what I do is for me to be

49:04

honest. Okay. I wanna be ridiculous. Thank

49:06

you for your honesty, sir. No, I wanna be

49:08

ridiculously fucking rich and awesome. He likes the hotel

49:10

room, see? Yeah, I mean, I'd probably

49:12

be doing this without my family. I don't, it's

49:14

not like I get up and go drive a

49:16

bus. But

49:19

do you agree that there is something

49:21

very gender specific about this script?

49:25

Oh no, on so many ways. The other day I

49:27

grabbed some fries from my kid's plate and he looked

49:29

at me and he said, dad, it's mine. I'm like,

49:31

everything in this fucking house is mine. Did you really

49:33

say that? I really said that, I use that as

49:35

exact words. Jeez. Don't

49:39

say that again. There you go.

49:41

There you go. Do not say that ever to anyone. No,

49:43

I can't, yeah, I can hear

49:45

it coming out of my mouth and trying to

49:47

pull it back. Yeah, yeah. I know.

49:49

Good idea. Could you apologize? Do you take

49:51

it back at least? Oh

49:55

yeah. You do that apologizing? Yeah,

49:57

I do. I do apologize to my dad.

50:00

kids and my

50:02

wife and I also try to immediately

50:04

inject humor to mock myself. Yeah, his

50:07

wife runs the whole show. Just 100% 100%. What

50:11

have I not to ask you that

50:14

you think many important part of this?

50:16

Please tell me. I

50:20

don't know. I just think it's interesting

50:22

because you're right. When you started this thing off, a

50:24

lot of people don't, they talk

50:26

about what the problem is and not what

50:28

works. Right. I think

50:30

that's a really interesting way to frame this because

50:33

when people do run into me publicly, because they think they

50:35

really know us and they kind of do on fans

50:38

who listen to the show kind of do know us. They're

50:41

like, what's the real example of what just

50:43

works? You just give me, this

50:47

is just the last one you mentioned,

50:50

Scott gets down on himself and he

50:52

goes negative. He berates himself. He doubts

50:54

himself. He petes himself. And you basically

50:57

say to him, cut it off, but

51:00

you have a way of doing it. And he

51:02

has a trust vis-a-vis you that

51:04

instead of feeling cut off and

51:08

shut down, he feels supported

51:10

and he feels that you're helping him

51:12

not sink. And

51:14

that you're holding his head above water. Those

51:17

moments, because relationships happen in micro moves.

51:19

That's a moment that in a distressed

51:22

relationship would completely turn on its head.

51:24

You would say, Oh, come on, knock

51:26

it off. And the other person would

51:28

feel you have no empathy. I have

51:31

no room to express myself. What about

51:33

my feeling? You shut me up, et

51:36

cetera. And it would begin an

51:38

escalation. Right. But I don't actually

51:40

say knock it off without saying you're great. Like

51:42

look at all the six things, you know, like,

51:44

like, let me show you why that's not the

51:47

case. Doesn't matter. You can say it in the

51:49

nicest way. But what, what,

51:51

what allows him to hold on

51:53

to this rather than

51:55

to feel pushed away

51:57

by it is, is in the detail.

52:00

of many, many other experiences

52:02

where he has learned to trust

52:04

that you mean well for him.

52:07

Many ways of him knowing that there

52:10

is something in what you do that

52:12

actually holds him from thinking

52:14

further. Lots of

52:16

little things that are not expressed

52:19

in the moment, but they allow

52:21

him to attribute meaning to what

52:23

you say that feels helpful and

52:26

curative rather than negative and hostile.

52:28

Yeah, I don't know why. That

52:31

analysis of micro move by micro move

52:33

is what helps us understand what

52:36

makes it work. Now typically we

52:38

all have a good idea of what makes it

52:41

not work. We've seen all the, you know, you

52:43

say this and off when the

52:45

other person goes, it's

52:47

what made this person take

52:49

this in this direction rather

52:51

than in the more obvious

52:53

direction. Right, yeah. You

52:56

say, but I say you're great, another person

52:58

could just hear this as she just, you

53:00

know, whatever you say, what's the word in

53:02

English? Yeah, use

53:04

your empty words, you know,

53:06

placating, placating me, you know,

53:09

and that doesn't happen. And it's

53:11

like what allows this? Well, because I think Scott

53:14

knows that I don't lie, you know, and I

53:16

don't, like, I wouldn't shine

53:18

him on. I don't ever

53:20

shine people on. I think that's, so

53:22

he knows I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. Oh,

53:25

here's a question. What is Scott going to make

53:27

Kara cry? God,

53:31

I hope I never make you cry. I hope I

53:33

give you permission. No, no, you get emotional. I'm

53:36

not talking about make you cry. It's that

53:38

you cry about really lovely things. You cry

53:40

about your missing friends or your,

53:42

someone who's sick or your

53:45

mom or something like that.

53:47

Really, you access those emotions. That

53:50

was just a joke because you're never going to make me cry. Yeah,

53:53

but you've, I've heard you get,

53:55

I've heard you get emotional about stuff.

53:58

I think you feel more like. to

54:00

talk about personal stuff, because I'm so personal.

54:05

My kids probably. Yeah, but

54:09

I think, you know, it's just

54:11

different. Kara's raised from a position

54:13

of where, I think, well,

54:16

I think, I think Kara's, I

54:19

don't wanna say her claws are out, but

54:21

Kara said something to me that really struck

54:23

me. She said, you know, when

54:25

we were talking about people who kind of run

54:27

the world or these heads of tech platforms, they

54:31

don't build any safeguards. They're

54:33

not worried about people being victims

54:35

because they've never been victims themselves. And so

54:37

they just have a difficult time understanding what

54:40

it's like to feel, to be a victim.

54:43

And I feel like Kara comes from a place where she

54:46

just took a lot of shit. And

54:51

so as a result, she puts up, it's

54:53

not a front, but I think

54:55

you have a lot of calluses. I

54:58

won't even call it scar tissue, but I think you're tough. You

55:02

have a, you know, you're a nagloo.

55:05

You're tough on the outside and soft and gooey

55:07

on the inside. But the

55:09

vast majority of people you come in contact with

55:11

are never gonna see that, I don't think. I've

55:13

seen it a few times, but

55:16

I think most people don't ever access that.

55:19

And so the question of when

55:21

we like cry. Yeah,

55:24

but I'm coming back to it

55:26

because it goes hand in hand

55:28

with the, I don't know, I don't

55:31

wallow, I don't sell pity. I

55:34

get over things, I'm pretty short, you

55:36

know, that very robust

55:39

system that you have. So

55:41

there might be one day something

55:43

that finally says, I deserve to

55:45

be here. But

55:48

I, as in I, this feeling deserves

55:51

to be, to take just

55:53

some space inside of you for a

55:55

moment. Please don't shut me down. Please

55:58

don't go practical on me. Please don't. start

56:00

cleaning, just let me express

56:02

myself. And there will

56:04

be maybe one day a part of you

56:07

that just asks for

56:09

that and makes it happen. He will

56:11

have not much to do with it.

56:13

The cleaning works. I tell you, this

56:15

should be a whole therapeutic thing. I

56:17

cleaned the whole basement on Sunday. I'm

56:20

so happy. I've written in Mating and

56:22

Gaffivity two pages on somebody who really

56:24

began cleaning. At the moment things became

56:26

most chaotic. And that notion that order

56:28

on the outside will be met by

56:30

order on the inside. It

56:33

is though. It does work. You

56:35

know, so it works

56:37

as a wonderful repressive tactic.

56:39

Organizing structure. It works for something. But

56:42

if you ask, how will I one

56:44

day, you know, will I one day

56:46

cry unbeknownst to me, will tears grab

56:49

me like I've seen them grab him.

56:52

And for that, those

56:55

tears will need to carve a little way

56:58

inside of you and basically say,

57:00

let us come, let us stream,

57:03

give us permission. Yeah, that's true.

57:06

That's true. Probably unlikely, but

57:08

still. And

57:10

I think we can stop here if that's okay with you.

57:13

Great. Thank you for doing this.

57:16

I can't imagine how many very famous

57:18

and interesting people would would kill

57:20

to have you do this for them. So thanks very

57:22

much. Yeah, my pleasure.

57:34

Where should we begin with Esther Pearl is

57:37

produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part

57:39

of the Vox Media podcast network in

57:41

partnership with New York Magazine and the con. Our

57:44

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

57:46

Eva Walshover, Dastri Sibley, Hiweti

57:49

Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor

57:51

Kagan, Kristen Muller and Julianna.

57:55

Original music and additional production. producers

58:00

of Where Should We Begin, or Esther

58:02

Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd

58:06

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

58:08

Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and