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Jack Daniels, All Rights Reserved. We've

1:56

been together for about six years now. I'm

2:00

not sure if I'm married the right

2:02

partner because there are lots

2:04

of issues in our marriage.

2:08

I know that I do have some

2:10

anger issues. My wife

2:12

has short temper, and she can get

2:14

really heated pretty

2:16

fast. And now,

2:18

when it's in the presence of

2:20

my daughter, like, I cannot

2:23

accept that. Zero talents.

2:27

If he says something and I

2:29

feel like I'm being pushed down

2:31

or talked down to, I'll get

2:33

really angry or upset

2:35

right away. I'm

2:37

the loud one, he's the quiet one. He thinks

2:39

he's the good one and tells me I'm

2:41

the bad one. She's

2:43

very stubborn, and that causes

2:45

a lot of issues between us. And

2:49

I feel like that's a bit of

2:51

the culture as well. If

2:54

someone helps us understand how

2:58

to navigate through that stubbornness,

3:01

I think our life will be much better. In

3:05

their introduction, her

3:07

question was very clear. Did

3:09

I marry the wrong guy? Given

3:13

that they had been dating for quite a

3:15

few years, but she got pregnant

3:18

and her Catholic family made it clear

3:20

that you don't have a child out

3:22

of wedlock, and so the

3:24

marriage ensued. When

3:27

he's asked what brings you, he said,

3:29

her temper, she

3:31

loses it too much, she yells, and

3:33

the one thing I can no longer

3:35

accept is that she

3:37

will scream and our daughter is

3:40

right there. And

3:43

this is one of those sessions where people

3:45

come in with one story, and

3:47

they're gonna leave with a very different one. I

3:50

don't know. Where

3:54

are you from? Originally. I

3:56

usually have people guess. I'll

4:00

give you a hand. No, I mean, I

4:02

can guess. Okay, go ahead. So I say

4:04

Morocco. There you go. Okay. Where

4:07

is your family from originally? Portugal.

4:13

So it's a Portuguese Catholic

4:15

family. Yes. And a Moroccan

4:18

Muslim family. Right, yeah. And

4:21

the world that you are creating together is?

4:25

American. Okay. So,

4:27

tell me more. You

4:30

can tell me, yes. You can tell me, you

4:33

know, what makes my family the way

4:36

that it is, is the

4:39

story that it has in relation to being

4:41

Portuguese Catholic, what they did,

4:45

how many kids we were, what the

4:47

religion stands for in our family,

4:49

etc, etc. And

4:53

then, you know, how people spoke to each other and

4:55

where I learned to yell. Right.

5:00

So I grew up as the oldest

5:02

of seven with a lot of responsibilities

5:04

and a strict household. Your

5:07

parents are the ones who came from

5:09

Portugal? Portugal or your grandparents? My parents.

5:13

So that resonated with me. An

5:16

immigrant coming from a different country,

5:19

trying to make a name for himself. That

5:22

was something that I really liked because

5:24

my dad is a very hard worker and owns

5:27

a business and I

5:31

look up to him for that. At

5:33

the same time, growing up,

5:36

my father didn't have the emotional intelligence

5:38

to, you know, he yells

5:40

a lot. He doesn't know how to express himself,

5:42

so he yells. But looking at

5:44

it, my mom didn't either because

5:46

it would be a lot

5:49

of yelling. It would be like chaos.

5:53

I mean, you know,

5:55

getting hit with anything

5:59

that was... around. Or

6:01

did you just

6:03

see? Or what did you

6:06

just feel on your skin? I

6:10

just, I felt, you

6:12

know, smacking. And

6:15

with the wooden spoon. And it's

6:18

funny because it's always a... No,

6:21

it's

6:24

not

6:27

funny.

6:37

I remember walking

6:39

up the steps and having

6:41

my father pull my hair that was

6:43

in a ponytail down the

6:46

steps. And I was a teenager

6:50

and it hurt a lot. And I

6:52

felt betrayed that my dad could hurt

6:54

me like that. That's

6:57

what I felt. So

7:06

much just happened in

7:08

this one moment. I mean,

7:11

in the first sentence, she says, I

7:14

have an anger issue. But

7:17

then she says, I don't

7:19

like when people put me down

7:21

who devalue me. And

7:23

I decided that I

7:25

needed to hear that second sentence

7:27

as much as the first. And

7:30

she just confirmed this. Yes,

7:33

she gets angry, but she may not

7:35

have just an anger issue. She

7:37

has a hurt issue. She

7:41

protects herself against

7:45

the harshness that she

7:47

experienced from this father

7:49

who she sees with

7:52

great clarity, but who

7:54

nevertheless attacked her, hit her,

7:56

put her down and basically

7:59

tried to kill her. to gain control by

8:01

losing control. And

8:03

it's so easy for us to look

8:05

at the person who gets angry without

8:08

seeing, as we see with her,

8:10

so immediately that the

8:13

person who gets angry was

8:15

hurt, and that hurt people often

8:17

hurt others. How can you

8:20

help? If

8:28

I may interrupt? No?

8:30

Okay. No, you can respond, but

8:32

not interrupt. Okay. Meaning

8:35

you can respond to what you

8:39

just heard. Yeah, interrupting energy,

8:41

but responding to

8:43

what she just said in

8:46

the fast to her parents, because

8:49

you don't know them by, I know them.

8:51

So to give you a different... No, not

8:53

yet. Okay. If

8:55

you want to respond just to what's right

8:57

next to you, if

9:02

you're going to start giving explanation and background,

9:06

then we need to wait. If

9:09

you can respond to what you're

9:12

feeling right now and you're

9:14

hearing her, that's a different story.

9:20

I respond to

9:22

her the best way I know

9:26

anybody can come from me. So when I'm not

9:29

in distress, not

9:31

feeling good, if you

9:34

would explain whatever

9:36

happened, just like you did earlier, with

9:40

a much more rational,

9:42

simple... Your

9:48

wife just remembered

9:50

something. She

9:54

saw herself on the steps. She saw that

9:58

basically... How

10:01

can this man who supposedly loves

10:03

me treat me the way he does? She

10:07

didn't blame, she

10:09

didn't accuse, she

10:12

just relieved it. And

10:20

she knows the bind she's in, because

10:22

she probably told herself, I'll

10:25

never do this. I'll never be

10:27

like this. And yet

10:29

some of this lives inside of her, a

10:31

part of her. What

10:35

does your body want to do at this moment?

10:37

You want to stay in the corner? You

10:40

want to come closer? You want to put your

10:42

hand on her left? What

10:45

does your, not your head, your

10:49

leaning, your physical response

10:51

is what? I'm

10:55

much more in tune with

10:57

the story and thinking and rationalizing.

10:59

Yeah, that's a problem. That's

11:02

a problem. You push yourself in

11:05

the corner, you look through the window

11:07

and basically your whole body says, get

11:09

me out of here. Oh,

11:11

I don't want to get out of here. I want

11:13

to, I'm very into the story. I'm coming closer.

11:16

Yeah, but I'm thinking. Tough, no. No,

11:19

no, your thinking isn't helpful in this

11:21

moment. Your

11:24

thinking in this moment puts you in

11:26

some analytic box that is

11:28

absolutely not what people need when

11:30

they're upset. So,

11:36

shall we ask her? The

11:39

source is right here. Yes. Yes,

11:41

yes. Go ahead. Do

11:44

you want anything? Yeah, I

11:46

need a hug. Okay.

11:55

We just started the session,

11:58

but they brought have shared

12:02

quite immediately their

12:04

survival strategies, their

12:08

what sometimes is called their adaptive child,

12:10

a la terri real, or

12:13

their defense mechanisms, or

12:16

their protection styles.

12:19

She erupts and

12:21

explodes when she

12:23

feels hurt and put down. So

12:26

he goes into his head and

12:29

starts to think, to rationalize,

12:31

and to basically detach himself. And

12:35

that is a ton of information. I don't

12:38

know yet what I'm going to do with this, but

12:41

there is the current behavior and then

12:44

there is what fermented this,

12:46

what brought this into being so

12:48

that these are such well rehearsed

12:51

responses, his, and

12:53

hers. He is very aware of

12:55

hers. He doesn't yet know

12:57

that this is his. And I'm

12:59

just taking this all in and

13:02

I have a lot of triage to do. Do

13:13

you also want to hear? No. Okay.

13:17

I mean, I know you don't, but... But

13:21

I think... No. Just

13:25

shut your mouth, please. There is a time

13:27

for everything. Oh,

13:30

okay. You want your wife to be

13:32

softer. And when

13:34

she is, your

13:38

response is basically

13:42

telling her without

13:46

you meaning to. And it says to

13:48

her, it's not safe to be softer

13:50

here. And

13:53

that's not what you want. Okay.

14:00

I mean, I think I'm pretty soft or really

14:02

soft when need to be, but... It's

14:05

not about you being soft, it's about

14:07

you tolerating her being soft. You've

14:10

decided that you're the softie and she's the hard

14:13

ass. Yeah,

14:16

I mean, not really, but... I

14:20

said it in a certain way to make a point. She's

14:24

upset. There's

14:27

nothing else you need to do. And

14:32

just to be there for two minutes

14:35

while she's upset. And

14:38

your analysis and

14:40

your background and

14:42

your thoughts about her family and

14:45

all the qualifiers that you're going to put

14:47

in there are unfortunately

14:51

maybe super smart and interesting and I'd

14:53

love to hear them, but they're not

14:56

helpful in the moment. It's

15:00

about timing. It's

15:04

about awareness of what's around you

15:08

and cultivate that awareness of

15:10

what people feel and need.

15:15

When they feel and they need,

15:17

you analyze and you evaluate the

15:19

validity of their feelings. But

15:24

with her, it's different. I mean, I

15:26

do everything where... Just

15:32

take it out. Okay. See,

15:38

I actually really appreciate what's

15:40

happening because you're doing with

15:42

me, you're

15:44

a butt guy. Butt.

15:49

And you correct and you cause control

15:52

and you're

15:55

deflecting and you're squeezing

15:58

it. And while you're doing it, you're not going to be able to do it.

16:00

you're experiencing in your life that other

16:02

people are squeezing you? I

16:05

don't really have anything squeezing me right now or

16:08

since a while maybe. You just start doing

16:10

it with me. So

16:13

I had

16:16

an observation, I had an

16:18

idea, it could be wrong but

16:21

for me to not

16:23

be able to express it is

16:26

an issue and here I think...

16:28

You asked me what

16:30

shall I do? I

16:34

gave you a suggestion. Okay. What

16:38

I would like to invite you is

16:41

to ask yourself at

16:44

a moment with my partner

16:47

shares a

16:49

rather difficult experience

16:54

why is my opinion on something

16:57

that I'm thinking about? So

17:03

essential that I can't be late. This

17:09

is the question for you. So

17:13

tell me what happened to you before when

17:15

she was telling the story of her dad. I'll

17:19

give you an example. That's very...

17:21

feeling not the thought. Okay. What

17:23

did you feel? Did you

17:25

feel close, caring,

17:29

compassionate, patient,

17:33

curious, turned

17:35

off, cold, shut

17:37

down, uninterested? No,

17:39

no, no, absolutely not. I feel

17:43

on the pain. I do. I'm very sensitive. So

17:48

that's why I was trying to say like her

17:52

family or her especially with her father

17:54

are very good people but

17:56

they just don't know better. That doesn't matter. And

17:58

no, but to me that was... is how

18:01

I can help you feel better at

18:03

the moment. With logic. I

18:07

don't care about that. I

18:10

know my dad's a good man. Okay. But

18:13

he hurt me in that situation. And

18:15

I need you to be empathetic to me and say,

18:19

that must have been horrible to experience

18:22

that. I'm sorry. And

18:24

I'm here. That's what I needed from you.

18:27

It's not a justification on why I shouldn't

18:29

feel this way. Because

18:31

my dad is a good guy and 95% of the other

18:33

things. That

18:37

wasn't helpful. Okay. And it

18:39

made me feel distant. Okay.

18:43

Even though you mean well, sometimes

18:46

what you do can still hurt. And

18:49

it's not about the

18:51

intention. It's about the receipt of

18:53

it. Okay.

18:56

I don't receive logic

18:58

when I'm crying as caring.

19:08

This is such a critical moment because

19:10

it would be so easy to

19:13

see him as not

19:16

able to experience any atonement, having

19:19

no empathy. And

19:21

when he says, I'm very sensitive,

19:23

he is, he absolutely is. He's

19:26

so sensitive that he can't tolerate.

19:31

He can't stand seeing her so upset. And

19:34

in his mind, if he

19:36

explains the circumstances of her

19:38

father, he hopes it will make her

19:40

feel better. It's

19:42

not that he's not feeling, it's that he's

19:45

feeling so much. It's

19:47

very important for me to keep in mind

19:50

because it's easy to think, oh, he's just

19:53

intellectualizing and rationalizing. But in fact,

19:55

what he's trying to do is

19:57

make her feel better by having

19:59

her. understand for that. Of course,

20:01

none of it will work. But

20:03

it's very important to me. I

20:06

think it's important for many therapists

20:09

working with men to

20:11

actually not miss the point. What

20:15

may look like he can't stand her

20:17

being upset is not

20:19

because he has no feelings, but it's

20:22

because he has so much feelings. He

20:25

gets overwhelmed by it. He

20:27

feels for her, and he wants to do

20:29

whatever he can to make her feel better.

20:33

And that's my being certainly a parent. Most

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and delicious recipes to promote better

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living. Available to buy now wherever

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books are sold. Support

22:01

for where should we begin comes from Shopify.

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what stage you're in.

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shopify.com/Esther. What's

23:10

the connection between what just happened

23:15

and the yelling? The

23:17

presenting issue is you're angry, but

23:20

this is about what happens when actually you're

23:22

sad. And there

23:24

is something about you not being allowed to be

23:26

sad that made you

23:28

become angry in the first place. Did

23:32

you show your dad when he hurt you or did you

23:34

decide you would never let him see how he got to

23:36

you? No, to not. No. All

23:39

right. Well, I never put it together

23:41

that my anger was a mask for sadness. But

23:45

I know I get angry when I get frustrated or when

23:48

I hear something that I don't like. And

23:52

when I'm overwhelmed, I get angry, you know. My

23:56

mom was depressed. raising

24:00

us kids anxious

24:02

and depressed and I feel

24:04

like I'm falling into the same pattern and I

24:08

don't know how to control it And

24:13

then you should say you don't know how to manage it,

24:15

but it does feel like it takes over you and My

24:19

dad was not a very good partner to my mom

24:24

Doing this because his response

24:26

was you just get up out

24:28

of bed and you do what you have to do and I'm

24:32

very grateful That

24:36

you are my partner Because

24:39

during the times that I'm not Feeling

24:43

good you make me feel comfortable and

24:45

safe. Mm-hmm. It's sometimes

24:49

comes Price

24:51

where If

24:56

somebody close to me is not feeling well

24:58

I stop my life and focus on them

25:00

and get them better But

25:03

you don't you shouldn't have to get me better. You just

25:05

have to be by my side I know

25:07

and also but you don't know

25:09

that you tried to fix everyone that's in pain and you

25:11

don't need to do that They

25:14

just need you to be standing with them. I know,

25:18

but it's You don't

25:20

realize that You

25:23

don't want to see people in pain just take it

25:25

in Just

25:29

yeah, take it in She's

25:33

saying something I'm

25:36

hearing very loud and clear what you're saying. I

25:38

know that you don't need to fix me.

25:40

I Think

25:49

I Also,

25:54

I Love

25:57

you, but sometimes you need to get out of your head Yeah.

26:01

Where did you learn to

26:04

fix? I

26:07

think I've always tried to fix things.

26:10

In general, if I'm in a group of

26:13

people, there's a

26:15

problem. I feel like I need to

26:17

fix. Can

26:20

I ask her what she saw when she came to

26:22

visit? What

26:24

did I see in this family? Yeah. What

26:27

did you learn about the fix? I don't think she's

26:30

as observant as I am, but

26:32

go ahead. Now

26:34

that you've been put in your place? Exactly.

26:37

It's not quality. Why say that? Why?

26:40

Why? What is the point of saying that?

26:42

Nothing wrong with it. Yes, it is. It's

26:44

putting me down. That's

26:46

not what I mean by it. It's a fact. I'm

26:51

very observant. She's not. I

26:54

don't think that there's like one is better than the

26:56

other. You

26:59

know. Yeah,

27:01

I disagree with that. Okay.

27:06

One thing that may help you

27:08

on occasion is

27:11

instead of what is my intention, you

27:14

may want to ask yourself what will be

27:16

the outcome of this? What

27:20

will this do to us if I say

27:22

this? Is

27:24

that the useful thing to say? Not is it

27:27

a fact? And sometimes

27:30

in a relationship we may be right,

27:32

but that doesn't mean we are wise.

27:37

And wise is sometimes to know what not

27:39

to say. Because

27:43

it hurts. You

27:46

may not mean to hurt. You

27:50

just wanted to make an observation.

27:53

But it hurts. What

27:56

I don't want is to sugarcoat things. I

27:58

don't want to walk. on

28:00

eggshells around her. I

28:03

want this to be as natural as

28:05

possible, as normal

28:07

as possible, as healthy as possible. Well, this

28:09

is not. You

28:11

have an idea of how things need

28:14

to be, but

28:16

if you look outside of you, you

28:19

will notice that the result isn't that.

28:22

And now you have a choice. You

28:25

can continue to be dogged

28:28

about it. And

28:31

think that she is the stubborn

28:33

one. Or

28:36

you can say, the

28:39

effect of this isn't what I intended. Maybe

28:42

I should take a look. I find

28:44

myself a lot more of what you just

28:46

said. This is not working out, and let's

28:49

try something different. Okay, that's great,

28:51

because when she just now, in a very

28:53

nice way, said, you know, that

28:55

wasn't necessary, that hurts. You

28:58

basically came back with, but

29:00

it should not hurt you, it should not hurt you. It's just

29:03

normal, and I don't want to make any connections, and I should

29:05

be able to express myself. And I am actually

29:07

a much better observer than you, and that

29:09

is just a fact. Now,

29:13

I just... Dramatize it. Yes,

29:17

I dramatize for effect. I hope

29:19

I didn't sound that bad. But

29:23

if the drama is the effect

29:26

of what you said on another

29:29

person. Presented that

29:31

way, yes. And all of

29:33

this, I say to you, because you would

29:35

like your wife to be less angry. You're

29:40

a deeply, deeply feeling

29:42

person. Me?

29:45

Yes. And so are you. But

29:49

you find yourself trapped in, how

29:52

should a man respond to

29:54

feeling deeply? And

29:56

your response is that...

30:00

odds with the depth of how you feel. And

30:04

you react according to a code that

30:07

you've learned as well. Fixing.

30:12

Fixing is more often

30:15

a masculine code. And

30:22

what your wife says to

30:24

you is, I get

30:27

through it myself. This is not new to

30:29

me. But

30:32

there is a huge difference when

30:34

you don't get through it alone. And

30:37

what I need from you is to

30:40

not be alone with this. And I find my

30:42

way out. You

30:44

actually have to do a lot less than what you

30:46

think. And

30:49

if I find a room, a space

30:52

with you, where I can

30:54

be sad when I'm sad, then

30:57

actually I will unlearn the

30:59

fact that anger is the primary way

31:02

with which I express all my

31:04

other emotions. It's

31:10

a beautiful story. You

31:12

like it? I do. He

31:14

doesn't believe it. No, it's not true. I'm

31:17

being a little bit sarcastic. But it

31:19

does sound very poetic. The

31:22

reality is... Do you

31:24

take in anything people say? I do.

31:27

Well, why are you always quick to respond? Why

31:31

can't you just hear and then respond to what

31:33

you've heard? This

31:35

is, I think, a problem between us, is that

31:37

you don't respond to what you've been listening to.

31:39

You respond to what you have in your head.

31:43

You know what? Sometimes

31:46

and sometimes not. He took it

31:48

in. If he saw the poetics of it, he

31:50

took it in. But he's a bit on the

31:52

ADD side. And

31:54

that's how he processes. And so,

31:56

okay. You have to

31:59

get used to it. So do I.

32:01

He processes

32:03

it in the equivocation. It's

32:06

okay. I

32:08

know you think it comes so fast that he

32:10

has not even had the time to think, but

32:12

he says. So

32:15

I think

32:17

it would be good if sometimes

32:20

he takes one breath before he

32:22

responds. Let's

32:25

see. By the way, the other way

32:27

is very true. So if I talk to her

32:31

most of the time, she

32:33

has not registered what I said. And

32:36

it goes to anger and it

32:38

goes to things that are not

32:41

in tune with what I've said.

32:44

But the fascinating thing

32:47

is that none of this is happening

32:49

at this minute and

32:52

you bring in that

32:59

constantly prevents from something different

33:01

to happen. One

33:04

of the very important things in a couple is

33:07

that when there actually is an interaction

33:09

that is different, don't

33:12

poison it. It's

33:14

like if somebody is finally hearing you, don't say

33:17

to them, you never listen to me. I

33:20

understand. So go back to

33:22

my poetics. Should I say it again? Do you

33:25

want to say it? You should say it. Yeah. So

33:28

the more space

33:31

I have to be vulnerable and just

33:33

exist in my emotions, the

33:37

less I'll lash out when I have

33:39

other feelings because I'm able to feel

33:41

other things and be okay and

33:43

be in a safe space and

33:46

not resort to anger when I'm

33:50

scared, frustrated, upset, sad,

33:54

overwhelmed. Do you

33:57

listen to music? I do. Great.

34:00

Join us. Because

34:05

what you know from

34:07

music. In

34:10

the end of a phrase. Something

34:14

that lands. And

34:16

then there is a moment. Of. Quiet.

34:21

And then you fix up from that

34:23

place. Into the next.

34:29

I think what would since things

34:32

a lot between the two of

34:34

you. His.

34:37

This you could drop into that

34:39

moment. That beats

34:41

assignments. The.

34:45

Next, semi have a conversation. You

34:47

should have music playing at the

34:49

same time, so Ill give you.

34:51

Basing. On

34:54

the other end to personalize

34:56

it says. No. It's

34:59

not meant to cut you off. It's

35:01

a difference in the real. And

35:04

you may have to just sake exactly the

35:07

way you said it today. To.

35:09

Split. I just

35:11

need you see it hurt him.

35:14

Succeed. At the very

35:16

thing you want from him. Live.

35:22

What you're saying is like sometimes when i speak

35:24

or after she them talk him. As

35:27

a how to ride. In Who

35:29

Are Set So she sets me

35:31

off. And I'm

35:33

not able to finish or even

35:36

start. my senses mostly taught. You

35:39

know that it's partly because

35:42

she's experiencing exactly what. You're

35:45

experiencing. It's

35:47

like if she gets yanked out of it.

35:50

By. Your rationalizing. She

35:53

barely as swallow this that

35:55

you're already. Corny

35:57

saying it's. and

36:00

It's experienced as I can't have my

36:02

feeling and then

36:04

the anger, the part of her

36:07

that over a long years honed the

36:09

thing that the only valid way then

36:12

to be is to be angry is

36:15

going to come at you and then

36:17

you're going to say I can't live with this. And

36:20

all I'm saying to you is there's

36:22

something you do in here in this

36:24

sequence that inadvertently,

36:28

so I don't think you mean it at all, is

36:32

contributing to the very thing

36:34

that you would like to be different. And

36:38

a tweak here

36:40

can go deep. Here

36:47

is a moment where I just want

36:49

to pause and explain something. This is

36:51

one of the most frequent

36:55

sequences that we see in a couple

36:57

is what we call the more the

36:59

more. What we do

37:01

is we draw from the other person

37:03

the very behaviors that we do not

37:05

want, which is

37:07

what I'm saying to him is if you don't want

37:10

her to get angry, give her

37:12

just a tiny bit of space to be upset,

37:14

to be hurt, to be frustrated. When

37:17

she gets that, she doesn't have to

37:20

resort to anger because she learned to

37:22

be angry as the only feeling that

37:24

was acceptable because all the others were

37:26

not. When

37:28

she gets angry, he

37:30

gets confirmed that she's impossible. What

37:33

do you do with impossible irrational hysterical people?

37:37

You contain them with reason,

37:40

which only makes her

37:42

more angry, which only makes him

37:45

more reasoning and more rational

37:47

and more intellectualizing. In

37:50

rigid patterns, they are

37:53

stiff, but at the

37:55

same time that they're stiff, a micro

37:58

move where one person shakes, Looking

38:01

for. The changes the whole sequence

38:03

but for that the person has to be

38:05

willing to do the moved and self because

38:07

a rigid path and is one in which

38:09

each one is waiting for the other one

38:12

to make the move. And

38:14

I don't know that I succeeded in getting

38:17

that one across. Support

38:33

for where should we begin? Com some hats.

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38:49

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39:45

for for the show comes from Art

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Beat Him Learn a new documentary from

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Box Creative, a Mom with Jack Daniels

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and lives. Now onto the please. drink

40:24

responsibly with his message and thirty five

40:26

percent alcohol by volume said Daniel. Disillusioned

40:28

and for Tennessee said. Daniels in Tennessee

40:31

Honey are registered trademark Twenty Twenty Four Jack

40:33

Daniels All rights reserved. And.

40:39

This situation. Thing. Allowed things

40:41

hurt me a lot when it comes

40:43

to my daughter. he do to. Chennai.

40:47

Yes Yes, Yes! My

40:50

guess is that at this moment

40:52

when you see her do things

40:54

you don't like rigid daughter, you

40:56

get annoyed. For. It. And

40:59

so you get a night and then you become

41:01

critical. And then you can

41:04

critical that she becomes the census and

41:06

then it's she becomes defensive sense of

41:08

doing more of does everything that you

41:10

don't want her to do with. she

41:12

doesn't necessarily want to do either. either

41:14

way. Said

41:16

that she thinks it's great to get. Fairness.

41:21

And. Jay. Lynn. If.

41:26

You could? You also

41:28

remember that when she

41:30

gets angry it's often

41:32

to she's overwhelms. Anxious,

41:34

frustrated, scared ceiling in

41:37

that inadequate stuff like

41:39

that. Any when

41:41

you think that. You. Could

41:43

instead of getting the know it. Just

41:46

needs out to her. There's a

41:48

good chance that many turn.

41:53

It return. If.

41:56

I'm. Here in this

41:58

correct this. If

42:01

I was to have her. Character.

42:04

And vice versa. Then.

42:08

She. Should. Do.

42:11

What you just described, Correct. She.

42:13

Should have Here is your feeling

42:16

angry? The and I'm I'm explosive

42:18

numb Yelena Ah family. I'll get

42:20

his. Hands. It in anger an

42:22

explosive tell. What I'm describing,

42:24

What I feel from you.

42:28

One. There's a problem as explosive,

42:30

flat, and angry, And.

42:33

Overdramatic. Your.

42:36

Job. Will. Be to

42:38

be. There is no

42:40

farm and an. Is

42:42

just to name it. See,

42:44

You will learn. To.

42:47

Say I'm overwhelmed. You will learn

42:49

to say I need help. That's

42:53

you. Love him. So. That

42:55

he knows. What to do?

42:57

He can help you in. Those moments.

43:00

See, I'm thinking some, Can they help.

43:03

Each other. You

43:05

will learn to name your ceiling so

43:07

that he doesn't just see everything as.

43:10

Anger. And neither

43:12

do you that you

43:14

also intuitively now know.

43:17

That. Many times when she's angry, it's

43:19

six other things. As

43:22

so you can help her to. Are

43:25

you have a when do you need help?

43:28

Let me take over. You go to the

43:30

room for minute. just seen it signed at

43:32

an advantage and thirty instead of. Being.

43:35

Upset with her reaction. Takeover.

43:39

In a kind way. In

43:42

a kindly not some the place

43:45

of stand what she does but

43:47

some the place of obviously she's

43:49

struggling. Okay, so.

43:52

My view on this and the like.

43:55

it is to put a cigarette while

43:57

I was implemented in my life. This

43:59

is. why. If

44:02

we both agree that her

44:08

yelling in front of a child is

44:11

unacceptable. So your

44:15

approach to it is in my head

44:17

and no offense, please. It's just like

44:19

the band aid kind of fix. What

44:22

I want is to be like, okay,

44:25

so how

44:27

can we understand

44:30

the anger problem?

44:32

Because it's like, I just

44:34

gave it to you. Exactly. No, it's

44:36

one way. I have no way

44:38

of knowing if this is the right way or

44:41

guarantee. All I know is you're

44:43

stuck. So I'm offering you

44:46

one path to get exactly to

44:48

where you want. Okay. I

44:51

am very clear

44:53

where you want it to be. And if

44:56

it was so simple as for her just to say,

44:58

I hate doing this.

45:00

This is not the mother I want

45:03

to be. And therefore it stops, then

45:05

we wouldn't be sitting here. So

45:09

your push is different than mine. And

45:12

it's different than hers for sure. How

45:15

can we get all three? That's

45:19

a choice you make. You say this

45:21

woman liked what she suggested. Let's try.

45:24

Or you say this woman, I don't care what she

45:26

said. I don't want to do it. This is totally

45:28

up to you. I understand. Up

45:31

to both of you. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be

45:33

great. If you did that. I think it would

45:35

help a lot if you did that because exactly

45:37

what Esther said is exactly

45:39

how I feel. And like

45:41

what Esther was saying, when I'm angry, I

45:44

feel either small.

45:48

I feel incompetent. I

45:50

feel overwhelmed, stressed, frustrated.

45:54

So to get through to the anger would

45:56

be to just offer

45:58

me a little pause or Hey,

46:00

I'm here. Sorry that

46:03

would get through to me. Okay, so

46:05

not get so reactive. I Think

46:09

what he needs to hear from you is that

46:12

you don't like what you do She's

46:15

mentioned that to me in the back and I'm

46:18

aware of it. I appreciate that actually My

46:21

very good because in many situations

46:24

People end up defending the thing that

46:26

they actually don't care about just because

46:28

they feel so attacked. So that's really

46:31

good Yeah, but what I feel

46:33

here is because from my past experience with her

46:35

for the past five years or so It's

46:39

habitual. It's the same

46:41

thing with we're talking about how to break

46:43

a pattern. We know it's a bitch All

46:47

we're looking for is one beginning to

46:50

break a pattern You

46:54

have to do something different you

46:56

can't just talk Okay,

47:00

and that means to the extent that you

47:03

can name a little bit what you feel and that's

47:05

hard for me to That's right.

47:07

That's why each of you has to stretch.

47:09

Yeah, and this is gonna be clumsy Yeah,

47:11

this is not gonna work out perfectly the

47:13

first time, but you're gonna stick to

47:15

it What Really

47:18

will make a difference is if you

47:21

can experience the more vulnerable feelings without

47:23

experiencing it with shame and self

47:27

degradation and aloneness

47:30

Because he's there with you And

47:33

I'm curious to hear what she

47:35

has to say about that like what you

47:40

Think I do when you are

47:42

upset. Oh, you definitely Put

47:45

me down. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. How

47:50

By what you say in your tone You

47:54

know don't tell him what he does but

47:57

tell him how you experience what she does

48:00

He may not mean to do any of this,

48:03

but your experience is valid as

48:05

is. Tell him how it comes

48:07

down on you, how it lands on you. So

48:09

for me, me putting her down,

48:12

tell her, hey, you're screaming, describing

48:14

the actual fact that her voice

48:16

is louder than it should be, and that's

48:19

me putting her down. When

48:21

we're in this situation, and I remember

48:23

once you didn't like something, and

48:26

you said something, and I just freaked out,

48:29

because in that moment, what

48:31

that conveyed to me is

48:33

you're a shitty mom. Now

48:36

continue, and I know that's not what you

48:38

mean. Exactly. I

48:41

probably meant it. Yeah, I probably meant it,

48:43

sorry. You meant it. And

48:45

so in circumstances. You did mean

48:47

you're a shitty mom. In those circumstances,

48:50

yes. Okay, so you did mean to her

48:52

in that moment? No, I just meant to

48:54

describe to you that your behavior is

48:56

one of a shitty mom.

49:00

Not in general. You're honest, you're

49:02

honest. There's no other way. But it

49:04

is not helpful at all.

49:07

It's at your fault. Well, now that we're talking about

49:10

it, I would never call you a shitty mom, and

49:12

you know that. Of course. Especially in a situation like

49:14

that. But saying something to convey

49:17

that I'm a shitty mom,

49:20

because you want for me to know

49:23

that because the facts say that I'm

49:25

that, will only

49:27

make the situation worse. Because? Because

49:31

it's not- She doesn't like her. No, because

49:34

it's what she fears she

49:36

is. Exactly. Because she knows

49:38

it. She knows that she's not

49:40

handling the situation, because it's shaming.

49:43

And you can't make someone change by

49:45

shaming. Yeah. This

49:47

competent woman who's the oldest of seven,

49:50

who took care of everything, hates

49:52

it when she can't handle something.

49:55

And so she's getting all twisted, because

49:57

it's entering through the filter of her own.

50:01

self-loathing.

50:04

That's the conflict. Conflict

50:08

around getting help. Wanting

50:12

it, but at the

50:14

same time feeling that if you need to be helped,

50:17

it's a proof that you're not adequate. I don't

50:20

know if it's just you or if

50:23

it's a family culture. Do

50:25

you know? I

50:28

would say more of the culture. Like, I

50:31

don't need any help. I'm fine. I'm

50:33

okay. I think it's part of the culture.

50:35

So the whole family is

50:38

organized around people needing less

50:40

or needing nothing or

50:43

being able to figure everything out alone. And

50:46

who set the tone for that? My

50:51

mom. My dad would always say my mom for

50:53

not doing things or having things done. Yeah,

50:57

I guess my dad more now thinking about

50:59

it that you should

51:01

be able to handle it. You

51:03

shouldn't need help. Like

51:06

my mom was juggling kids

51:08

and being the secretary for his

51:10

business, but he did not want

51:13

a cleaning lady at home. He thought

51:15

she could handle that too. And it

51:18

was a lot on her shoulders and

51:21

she just took it. She would

51:24

take the verbal abuse and it still

51:27

does. What would

51:29

he say? You're a

51:31

piece of crap. You're nothing. You're

51:35

stupid. You're

51:38

not worth anything. So

51:40

yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm not worth

51:42

anything. So sometimes

51:45

when I just look at him, the

51:48

way that he's looking at me just

51:50

says to me like, what the hell

51:52

are you doing? And I just freak

51:55

out because I don't want

51:57

to feel stupid. I don't want to. to

52:00

feel inferior or

52:03

dumb or any of those things.

52:08

So I lash out. You

52:12

imagine that your reaction is

52:15

because he is thinking that.

52:17

Yeah. There is

52:19

a part of him that is not pleased

52:21

with what he sees, but

52:23

there is also a part of you that

52:28

brings in a preceding

52:31

drama. Of course. All

52:33

these sentences that

52:36

live inside of you and

52:38

one gaze of his ignites

52:42

that entire storyline. Which

52:45

is the... And I don't know how to stop it.

52:47

I would never and I never curse that I

52:49

hurt her. I never did what her

52:51

dad does to her mom. I

52:53

hear you and I want to... Even

52:56

when he thinks you shouldn't be yelling,

53:00

he is not thinking the

53:03

10 things that your dad said to your mother. And

53:06

I wouldn't do it either. I

53:11

think she knows that. She just needs to hear from

53:13

somebody like you. Shut up! Just...

53:16

I know it. I know it logically. I

53:18

can tell if you don't have to feel like this. But it's different to feel it. Okay.

53:21

Let me feel what she is saying. Okay. But she

53:24

just witnessed you overreacting, saying shut up and all of

53:27

that and you can just turn to

53:29

me and say... I can't do it a

53:31

lot. Okay.

53:34

I just feel like I can't be myself. Okay.

53:38

I can't be myself. Okay. I

53:40

can't be myself. Okay. I

53:42

can't be myself. Okay. I

53:45

just feel like I can't be myself. You

53:50

can. I can. We

53:54

don't want to make this worse than it is

53:56

because then you start thinking that you

53:59

cannot fix it. and you cannot be this and

54:01

you cannot be that in the medicine. Acknowledging

54:03

what is does not mean that you sit

54:05

in it and you can't fix it. Okay.

54:10

You can sit in feelings

54:13

that are not pleasant and

54:16

then move on. But

54:18

you have to sit with them in

54:20

order to move on. So

54:22

yeah, every time I would see your face, I

54:26

would think, yeah, he thinks I'm a piece of shit. And

54:29

even though logically I know you don't think

54:32

that, when you

54:34

just look at me, that's

54:37

what I'm hearing. And

54:40

I have to unlearn that somehow. That

54:44

it's okay to be frustrated. And

54:48

my house growing up, it wasn't okay to be

54:50

anything other than okay. And

54:53

you know that. I

54:56

know that. I know. It's

55:01

good what you're doing. You're

55:03

unlearning it a little bit as you're

55:06

speaking. And then you're going

55:08

to practice. Because

55:10

the insight is one piece, but

55:13

the practice is what will lead to the change.

55:16

And the practice will be a combination of

55:18

you looking at him and saying, is

55:20

that what you think? And he's going to remind

55:23

you, no I'm not. I just don't think you're

55:25

handling this well. But I don't mean at all

55:27

that you therefore are the

55:29

story that is just filling your head. And

55:32

then it will become a part of me feels

55:34

this way. But there's a part

55:36

of me that just knows I'm frustrated. And

55:38

I don't like how I'm handling it. And

55:41

I need his help. And he's actually offering.

55:44

That's how

55:47

you dissolve a pattern like this. And

55:50

if you can help me, and I

55:53

can help us, why shouldn't

55:55

we? Where

56:15

should we begin with Esther Perel is produced

56:17

by Magnificent Noise. We're part of

56:20

the Vox Media podcast network in

56:22

partnership with New York Magazine and the Con.

56:25

Our staff includes Eric Newsom,

56:27

Eva Warchover, Destry Sibley, Kyoete

56:29

Katana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor

56:32

Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian

56:34

Mack. Original

56:36

music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

56:40

And the executive producers of Where Should We

56:42

Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

56:46

We'd also like to thank Courtney

56:49

Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler,

56:51

and Jack Foulkes.

57:02

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from

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Seed Health. Seed Health's DSO1

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Their symbiotic is a combination of

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25ESTER. Support

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for this show comes from Art, Beats, and

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Lyrics, a new documentary from Box Creative along

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with Jack Daniels, Tennyson Honey, and Colt Creative.

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Directed by Bill Horace, art beats and lyrics

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into a cultural phenomenon. The

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film unveils the origin stories of the

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event's founder, Jabari Graham, and its curator,

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