0:00

In my initial email I referenced

0:03

a scenario where

0:05

I was in a

0:07

new relationship with a guy

0:10

who was perfect. We

0:12

had an amazing relationship.

0:15

The communication was good,

0:17

the romance was there, there was

0:19

a curiosity between us. But

0:23

after a couple of months this

0:27

feeling crept in of desire

0:30

for my ex and

0:33

that desire slowly just got

0:35

louder and louder and louder.

0:39

This voice in my head telling me that this ex

0:41

partner was my soulmate that I needed to be

0:44

with them. I start

0:46

new relationships, they start

0:49

well, they start healthy, they're fun, they're

0:51

exciting. And then either

0:53

the past creeps in, so I have

0:55

a hard time letting go of either

0:58

previous partners or previous

1:00

flings or I start to

1:02

fantasize life with other

1:04

people that I may not even

1:06

necessarily know. And it

1:09

just erodes the relationships that I do

1:11

have and I usually

1:13

end up exiting those relationships. I

1:16

end up in this pool

1:18

of regret that I've just

1:20

let this amazing person go and

1:24

it's just a continuous cycle that

1:26

I'm looking to explore,

1:28

hopefully break or become

1:31

better equipped to deal with

1:33

for my future relationships. Joy

1:42

is the first glimpse of

1:44

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volume said Daniel. Disillusioned and for Tennessee

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said Daniels In Tennessee Honey a registered

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trademark. Twenty Twenty Four Jack Daniels. All

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rights reserved. Anything

3:25

you would like to add. That.

3:27

Neither did. It is still very

3:29

well. As. It's

3:31

accurate said he I can't hide from

3:34

at that's that is. Exactly how

3:36

I feel on the couch. Snyder that

3:38

keeps repeating itself. And

3:41

what do you know about It mean

3:43

you're describing a pattern? To. Describing

3:45

a sequence Like to know

3:48

about what drives the secrets.

3:51

For me it's the i understand the

3:53

timing of it. It usually happens when

3:55

you kind of starts as a bit

3:57

out of that I guess. honeymoon. No,

4:00

we haven't had our first public five.

4:03

you haven't really had any time. It.

4:06

Has of the relationship in any

4:08

way. I think that it also

4:10

to do with. My.

4:12

Ability to kind heart much

4:15

shut out Eastern all well,

4:17

the feeling to to pop

4:19

off this year, he I

4:21

desire for other people as

4:23

well. In the sample

4:25

by reference that I see

4:27

reference to partners with the

4:30

current one and a ex

4:32

partner. the reality of that's

4:34

neither Was sad when. The.

4:37

Ex partner in my mind's no longer

4:39

going but no one desiring me as

4:41

a person that's kind of windows intrusive

4:44

thoughts, fandom or the loss of desire

4:46

from someone them as trigger. You.

4:49

Know me to started think maybe I

4:51

should do them Magna schools and the

4:53

know. Some. In. My mind that. Kind.

4:57

Of the the tipping point usually.

5:00

Is one thing I would. Suggest.

5:03

We switch. None of this is

5:05

external. Even if you

5:07

think that the other people. Access

5:10

or potential other partners.

5:13

Or imaginative imaginary ciders.

5:15

our external what drives

5:17

this whole thing. Is.

5:20

In turn, When you

5:22

want me. This. A moment

5:24

at which has suddenly seem like any

5:26

to sleep. When you

5:28

stop wanting me. And I

5:30

begin to seal the anxiety of the

5:33

rejection or of the alone. This. Than.

5:35

I become the pursuer. Yeah.

5:38

Adult sons. Essentially

5:41

out how it happens. As

5:43

I've gotten older and have had more

5:45

experience with the way she shifts, I

5:47

have. Become more aware of it.

5:50

Said. I guess in. Previous.

5:52

Relationships I. Instead

5:55

of talking to my partner's about it,

5:57

I'd just actually the Jews I've had

5:59

this. Notion that know I

6:01

kind. Put them through This

6:04

I caught like explain this to him out

6:06

of. Some. Fear of I

6:08

guess? Confrontation. Or

6:10

maybe even project she. Are

6:14

you in your late twenties? I am

6:16

I late twenties. And. You

6:19

don't do this with friends. Know

6:22

my friendships are strong. One

6:24

was one other avenues of

6:26

my life. I. Have

6:30

consistent. Long relationships with

6:32

people that I would be

6:34

healthy and. You. Know

6:36

very. Filling.

6:39

And it's just that, my romantic

6:41

relationships one on sure. There

6:44

is a saying that they're only

6:46

to relationships who really resemble each

6:49

other. And that's the one

6:51

we had with our original caregivers. Or

6:54

parents and the once they have

6:56

without romantic partners. Most.

6:59

Of us managed to elude are

7:01

patterns when it comes. To our

7:03

friends. Because this

7:05

just enough distance that allows not

7:07

to have to repeat certainty, an

7:10

obvious question then becomes whereas have

7:12

you known this. Besides.

7:14

And the romantic. Relationships

7:16

know the similarity because it's

7:19

not about desire, but it

7:21

is about the in out,

7:24

push, pull, pursuer distance, or.

7:27

And a can of fraught expenses?

7:29

aren't you attachments to them? You

7:32

know, I think when I do

7:35

you that question was what matters

7:37

is sponsored by my parents, it

7:39

was pretty awful, you know, there

7:41

was. A loveless relationship

7:43

say are made in the board

7:46

individuals as an amazing job is

7:48

Ray Rice's sisters. But.

7:51

As a couple. Another example

7:53

of what a relationship should

7:55

be. though there were never meant

7:57

to be together they they got together when they were

8:00

early 20s they had kids and

8:02

they just never were able to

8:04

navigate being able to either split

8:07

or make a healthy relationship work

8:09

and you know a lot of what did you see a lot

8:12

of anger a lot of

8:15

resentment a lot of fighting

8:17

a lot of crying a lot of

8:20

emotion a lot of

8:22

volatility just such small

8:24

would be significant things

8:27

would trigger these gargantuan

8:29

responses so you know my

8:33

dad was late for dinner it would be

8:36

World War two you know we have

8:38

a physical but yeah some of these

8:41

fights were massive and as a young

8:43

child that was kind of like my

8:45

first rule for the relationship should be

8:47

I guess how

8:49

many kids just to but

8:52

my brother is significantly

8:54

older than me so as you know

8:58

by the time I was you know

9:00

and it was kind of like an

9:02

only child situation

9:05

for a significant period

9:08

of my childhood and

9:11

did they sometimes

9:14

kind of draw you in as in

9:16

not in the middle of a fight necessarily but

9:18

in telling you how they felt no

9:22

it's definitely one thing that my

9:24

family were not really not telling

9:27

anyone how they feel it was always maybe

9:29

don't cry in a bedroom or leave

9:32

the house it was never let's talk

9:34

about this or let's explain what

9:37

just happened did

9:39

you have equal sympathy for both

9:41

or did you find yourself leaning

9:44

more toward one than the other I think

9:47

as a child

9:49

my automatic my sympathy

9:52

went towards my mother tell me

9:54

more at

9:56

that point probably coming to

9:58

terms with and gay

10:01

my default or my,

10:03

I would kind of just go

10:05

towards my mother. She was very

10:07

nurturing as a mother. She was

10:09

very open and loving. And I think

10:13

that's where I would just kind of place

10:15

myself. I think it was just easier to

10:17

relate to her as a child. As

10:20

I've grown older and I've

10:22

become more aware of my parents

10:24

and who they are as people,

10:26

I sympathize with my father more. Just

10:29

him as a person, he's a brilliant

10:31

man. He's funny,

10:34

he's caring, he's kind.

10:36

And a lot

10:38

of the fights, there was

10:41

my mother reacting to dad

10:44

not coming to dinner on

10:46

time or yeah, as

10:49

a young child, it was definitely the

10:52

nurturing mother, kind of that

10:54

feminine energy that I guess

10:56

gravitated towards. If

10:59

you were to describe the sequence between your

11:01

parents, how would you describe it? It's

11:03

kind of hard for me to describe what

11:06

their sequence is because their sequence is that

11:09

they just stay together. Is

11:11

the sequence is that they are trapped? They're

11:13

trapped. Yeah. And being trapped is what makes

11:15

you bold. Okay. You come

11:18

in that two month period, it's just

11:20

on the edge and

11:22

before the first fight, it's before the

11:24

first argument. And once

11:27

the first one arrives, all

11:29

you can imagine is mayhem. And

11:32

you go from honeymoon to

11:34

trap and you're

11:37

describing your parents in

11:39

a state of entrapment and

11:41

you're describing how you somewhere along

11:43

the line to yourself,

11:45

maybe to others, but primarily to yourself

11:48

made a vow that you would never

11:50

be trapped. You

11:52

would never be in that kind of a

11:54

misery. But you don't really

11:57

know how Not to be in the

11:59

misery except. Clean. And

12:01

so it's meant as an

12:04

act of self protection, but

12:06

it becomes such an expression

12:08

of avoidance that Indians. He.

12:10

Signed his says. Unknown

12:14

and so one of the tricks

12:16

for not being alone. Is

12:18

to fantasize about the x or about

12:20

the next. Yeah. The

12:23

for the the sequence. When.

12:25

You have a site with

12:28

friends. And just curious. You

12:31

know to disagree. You know to

12:33

get into an argument. You know

12:35

how to repair. You know how

12:38

to say what you want. A

12:40

match? Yes. We try. Yeah,

12:42

I would say that. I

12:45

communicate well. Resolve

12:48

conflicts. Well. While not my

12:50

punches, wow, I'm viewed as

12:52

some. So. This lives

12:55

inside of you. You don't approach

12:57

friendships with fear. And

12:59

trepidation. And foreboding.

13:02

Whereas. You approach romantic

13:04

relationships. With that. right?

13:28

After Death and while we love our

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sponsors. If you wanna listen to the

13:32

session ad free, click the try free

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hours on Apple podcasts. support

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for the show comes from art beat

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13:51

art be in lyrics showcases how humble

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art show has grown into a cultural

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phenomena the film unveiled the origin stories

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of the events founder to bar Graham

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and its curator Dwayne W. Wright, exploring

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how Atlanta has shaped their individual past

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while also revealing their distinct roles within

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documentary follows Jabbar W. and several of

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for Where Should We Begin comes from Masterclass.

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15:52

me ask you something. Did your

15:54

relationships to demand change when your

15:56

relationship with your dad improved? Yes.

16:00

There was a lot of resentment

16:02

towards my parents and I think

16:04

that was probably a

16:07

byproduct of me not

16:09

being fully comfortable with myself and

16:11

not being fully out

16:13

of the closet. And

16:16

I think once that process started

16:18

to me, that process of self-acceptance

16:20

and obviously being okay with who

16:23

I was, I was able

16:25

to build that relationship back with my

16:27

dad and I'd see

16:29

him as the

16:31

brilliant person that I see him as now. Did

16:34

he accept you? Yeah,

16:36

there was like earlier on I always knew

16:38

that my parents were never going to, it

16:40

was like being gay was never going to

16:43

be an issue. I have a gay older

16:45

brother and my

16:47

parents have always been very forward in

16:49

their support of the gay community even

16:51

when I wasn't a part of it.

16:55

I think what made it difficult

16:57

for me was that I think

16:59

there was an expectation that I was

17:01

going to be the straight kid

17:03

just purely because my brother had already came

17:06

out, he's been accepted and all that. They're

17:09

like okay, one is gay but hey,

17:11

we got one more to go and

17:13

that's how I kind of assumed the situation at

17:15

the time. And

17:18

then I spent a lot of time going

17:21

back and forth hiding who I

17:24

was. I think

17:26

it made it probably a little harder for me because

17:28

I was actually dating women up until the point where

17:30

I did come out. Same pattern with

17:32

the women? No, not necessarily.

17:35

I had long-term relationships

17:37

obviously with this voice

17:39

in my head saying that hey, you

17:41

find men attractive. So

17:44

no risks of getting entrapped there? Exactly.

17:47

Because that's not where I belong. I

17:50

think I knew at some point that

17:52

this wasn't going to be my life story.

17:57

But Yes, to answer your question, my relationship with my

17:59

Dad. A lot better

18:01

and has can teach get better

18:03

with age as well. And

18:06

how did you change the relationship

18:08

with your partner's. Did It.

18:11

Well yeah so obviously

18:13

d the first few

18:15

months is the leading

18:18

man? Seriously? I

18:20

was an hour from. what does

18:22

he know? I I think I

18:24

use that relationship and kind of

18:26

a leverage to have that conversation.

18:28

I don't think I would have

18:30

been a point to just go.

18:32

Hey, I'm. A

18:35

game ends. Yeah,

18:37

so I am a huge

18:39

that's. The. Relationship to

18:41

come out my talents. Sweaty.

18:45

Brother helpful. Not.

18:47

Really? No. He

18:50

wouldn't seats boy. Significant.

18:53

Period of time. And.

18:56

In a similar fashion to my

18:58

parents, slide had a strange relationship

19:00

with him. Off the

19:02

I painted the forces of

19:04

about her while. You

19:07

never often and caused by support

19:09

which. I think that you. I

19:12

guess sort of defense knows who's

19:14

wowing the soon. Finds.

19:17

My own way. He says I had more time

19:19

the pressure that the it. So I thought his

19:21

time with. Butter. My on that

19:24

kind of the older son was doing.

19:27

Here. Have you ever

19:29

spoken with your parents about.

19:32

Their misery. About what

19:34

it was like to grow up

19:36

with their. Incessant. Citing

19:39

about. How

19:41

you perceive their loneliness. Do.

19:43

Not lie, I haven't and I

19:46

think the conversation would be easier

19:48

with my father and my mother.

19:50

Yeah, I heard it. I.

19:52

Think for my mother has she

19:55

for a long time now for

19:57

this is. My early.

20:00

She's been medicating with alcohol.

20:03

She's been through quite

20:05

a lot. I think a way for her to

20:07

deal with that is with alcohol. I

20:10

don't think she has the

20:12

tools or the desire to

20:14

seek external help. I

20:17

worry that that conversation isn't too

20:19

much and it would trigger

20:22

this alcohol consumption,

20:25

self-medication. I

20:28

hear you. I hear also

20:31

that your mom has

20:35

the more brittle, the more

20:37

fragile, and the person who sees

20:39

herself as the victim. He

20:41

comes late for dinner and she feels

20:45

diminished by his lateness, but

20:48

it never occurs to her to ask herself

20:51

if there's something in the way that she reacts

20:53

that may make him want to stay out later.

20:58

He stays out later and

21:00

pays the price of not knowing

21:03

his son as much as he

21:05

would like and as much as his son would like

21:07

to know him. And

21:09

so the son is home with

21:12

mom for whom he has

21:15

developed very deep

21:18

feelings that are very

21:20

mixed. A part of him resents

21:23

her for

21:25

her reactivity and

21:27

a part of him feels

21:29

very responsible to make

21:32

sure that he doesn't make it worse for her

21:35

because he never knows what she can

21:37

actually handle and what she can't.

21:40

And a part of him feels

21:42

deeply caring for her because

21:46

she's the nurturing, kind, accepting

21:48

mother. And a

21:50

part of him feels guilty

21:53

because sometimes all he wants is to get away

21:55

from her, but he feels guilty

21:57

about it because he knows that

21:59

she may not be able to. be able to take care of

22:01

herself well and that she's self-harming.

22:04

And so between the guilt and

22:06

the resentment and the love and

22:09

the sense of responsibility, he

22:12

finds himself entwined in

22:15

a complex set

22:17

of contradictory feelings for her.

22:20

And all of that sits

22:23

in the background when he

22:25

falls in love with

22:27

any other man. Yeah, I

22:30

can't put it any different. That's exactly

22:33

how it is. But

22:36

say it in your voice. In

22:39

my own words, I would

22:42

say that I am overwhelmed

22:45

with the feeling

22:49

towards specifically my

22:51

mother. It's almost a

22:53

feeling of helplessness in some ways because

22:55

I just

22:58

don't have the tools

23:02

to navigate feelings that

23:04

I have toward her. And I

23:06

don't have the tools to help

23:09

her either. And it's one

23:12

of the pieces, one of the parting

23:15

words that my parents always said to me

23:17

when I moved out of home is that

23:19

we'll be fine. Go and live your life.

23:22

We will be OK. And it

23:24

just feels like I

23:26

can't do that. And what

23:29

I think is this sense

23:31

of being helpless and overwhelmed

23:34

and confused, it

23:36

just filters into my romantic

23:38

relationship because I see myself

23:41

when I'm in these relationships and

23:43

they're good and they're healthy and I feel

23:45

like I'm in love. It

23:48

feels like at any particular point

23:50

or any unspoken point that that

23:52

might just turn and I will

23:54

end up being my

23:57

mother or my father. That's

24:03

how I like those two relationships and how

24:05

it impacts me. When

24:08

you tell me this is

24:10

happening in all my relationships, I

24:13

recognize the pattern. I basically

24:15

enter a state of panic. I

24:18

don't know what the panic is about, but

24:21

I have a state of panic. And

24:24

I start to deflect. The

24:27

fact that it has to do with desire and

24:29

fantasies about the next or about others, that's

24:32

just the mechanism with which you're

24:34

doing it. Don't get caught there. Because

24:37

you get along with the people, because the

24:40

relationship is good, you can't say,

24:42

I have communication issues. So you find

24:44

something about, I start to fantasize about

24:46

others. But basically I start fleeing. And

24:49

if you think it's a conversation about

24:52

desire, you may miss the point. So

24:54

then the first question

24:56

I have is, what are you replaying?

25:01

What makes you bold? What's

25:03

the panic? And if

25:05

it's recurrent, it's

25:07

a logical next step to

25:10

say, tell me about home. I

25:14

think in my most recent dating

25:17

of my last relationship that I

25:20

had, it moved

25:22

very quick. And

25:25

up until a certain point, I was thrilled

25:28

with that. I was kind of like

25:30

this whirlwind. There was a

25:32

point that I remember quite

25:34

vividly. And it was a discussion around

25:36

my partner, who started

25:38

to feel anxious within the relationship.

25:42

And that morning to know where it's going? No.

25:44

So we were real committed at that point.

25:46

We traveled overseas. We said we

25:49

loved each other. And that was

25:51

all very genuine. And when

25:54

I reflect on me in that relationship

25:56

at that period of time, that's

25:58

how I want to be. you know,

26:00

consistently, I suppose. But

26:02

the anxiety conversation came up that

26:05

my partner at the time didn't

26:07

really understand what that anxiety was

26:09

or what was triggering it. For

26:12

me, I was comfortable with that conversation

26:15

to try to offer my assistance,

26:17

to try to kind of get

26:20

an understanding of what the trigger

26:22

points about anxiety could be. And

26:24

he didn't have the answers. And

26:26

he didn't really want

26:29

to be in a position to kind of

26:31

talk through that with me. And I

26:33

think after a few failed attempts

26:35

at trying to get an

26:37

understanding of what that anxiety was

26:39

and what it meant, I

26:42

think that's when I started to pull

26:44

away. And that's when I know.

26:47

So when he talked to

26:49

me about his anxiety, but

26:51

was not willing or able

26:54

to explore it with me, what

26:58

happened to me? Don't tell me just

27:00

what you did. Tell me also

27:02

if you can, what you

27:04

experienced. I think

27:06

I experienced at

27:09

the time frustration. And

27:13

shortly thereafter, I think I started

27:17

to wonder

27:19

whether this relationship was

27:23

right. And I should have started to have that thought

27:26

process of should I stay, should

27:28

I go? And then eventually

27:31

the thoughts of this

27:34

person that I was with before my ex, I

27:37

think we were really well through. I

27:39

get it. But I'm going to slow you

27:41

down for a moment. Is that okay? Because

27:47

you can describe the steps.

27:49

And I would like to see if

27:51

we can go underneath

27:53

the surface for a moment so

27:56

that you get a different awareness of

27:59

what is driving We

28:09

are in the midst of our session

28:12

and there is still so much to

28:14

talk about. We need to take a

28:16

brief break, so stay with us. Support

28:25

for the show comes from Zabdak. We

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29:34

Listen, I'm 24 and I still live at

29:36

home. Like what? For sure. Are you kidding

29:38

me? My man and I we attempted to

29:40

move out. Yeah, that'll

29:42

be $1,600 for a studio apartment.

29:44

I don't think we're in it.

29:46

Last fall the National Association of

29:49

Realtors released data showing that housing

29:51

affordability had fallen to its lowest

29:53

point since the 1980s for reasons

29:55

of economy, comma, American. There just

29:57

aren't a lot of home sales

29:59

going on. And there's

30:01

really kind of a standoff right now between

30:03

buyers and sellers. That standoff leads

30:05

to another kind of standoff. It's

30:07

always fun being 40-something years old and having a

30:09

little bit of parents again. And

30:12

I know it's all my fault. Sir,

30:14

I don't know your life, but on Today

30:17

Explained, a two-part series on how it might

30:19

not be your fault. Our housing reality bites

30:21

and the American dream is in your childhood

30:23

bedroom. Series sponsored by Mint

30:25

Mobile. Today Explained, in your feed

30:28

every weekday. And I'll tell my mom.

30:30

Mom in there is back. I'm going to be back.

30:32

If I'm not on my three minutes dog, she's

30:34

like knocking on the door going, everything

30:37

okay in there? Yeah, mom, everything's cool,

30:39

dog. He

30:45

says I'm anxious. Your

30:47

first response is, I'm

30:49

curious. I'm interested. I

30:52

care. And

30:55

as you try to go back with

30:57

him in the conversation and he

31:00

isn't able to join you, you

31:03

get frustrated. That frustration

31:05

is like an open door to the

31:09

history with your mom entering

31:12

inside your internal home.

31:16

From frustration, what follows?

31:19

Responsibility, fear, annoyance,

31:22

impatience, resentment, which one?

31:27

I would say fear. Fear

31:29

of. Shit,

31:32

I'm going to find myself once again?

31:35

Yeah, in a position where I'm going

31:38

to start pulling away from this person. No,

31:40

no. Before I'm going to start pulling

31:42

away. Pulling away is

31:45

a response to something. It's not

31:47

the initial behavior. Pulling

31:50

away happens to me when I'm

31:52

in front of this man who

31:54

I thought I loved freely and

31:56

I suddenly start to once again

31:58

experience this overwhelming. sense of

32:01

responsibility and helplessness

32:04

and burden and

32:07

weightiness. Yeah, I

32:10

think burden is a

32:12

good way to describe that. This feeling

32:14

of like my parents and all those

32:16

complex feelings as an additional burden on

32:18

top of that. I think when I'm

32:21

in a good, like healthy relationship, not

32:24

healthy, like in those early stages, it's

32:26

easy. There's no baggage, there's no additional

32:28

stress. And then when

32:31

I start, you

32:33

know, when anxiety creeps in or whatever

32:35

the trigger is, I

32:38

think I just see that as potentially

32:40

the straw that's going to break the camel's

32:42

back in regards to stress or burden. So

32:47

remember, the desire to flee

32:50

is commensurate with the

32:52

size of the burden and the

32:54

responsibility that creeps up inside of

32:56

you. Oh shit,

32:58

I'm once again going to

33:00

have to take care, carry,

33:04

hold, feel responsible,

33:08

but then not be able to manage

33:10

the responsibility, so feel overwhelmed and

33:12

helpless. Oh

33:15

gosh, I gotta go. I gotta

33:18

get out of here. I gotta get out

33:20

of here as fast as I can, because

33:22

if I stay one extra minute, I'm

33:25

going to be swallowed up alive. You

33:31

feel it in your body? I do,

33:33

yeah. It's

33:36

kind of like a clenching

33:39

inside of my stomach when I hear that

33:41

out loud. Can

33:44

you stand up for a moment so I

33:46

can see the belly and the clench? It's

33:50

okay, just stand by, yes. Yeah. And

33:54

just put your hands there, right there where

33:56

you had them. Just breathe

33:58

into this. Because

34:01

it takes over and there is just

34:03

nowhere to go but out. Yes.

34:08

Yes. And

34:12

see if you can breathe inside, into, you

34:14

can sit, you can sit back. If

34:17

you can breathe into your hands, not

34:19

just up here but literally expand

34:23

your rib cage and just make

34:27

space because your

34:29

whole experience is an experience of

34:31

contraction. You don't

34:34

differentiate between your mom,

34:37

your dad, especially your

34:39

mom and your lovers. It's

34:41

as if the past and

34:44

the present collapse. It's

34:49

hard to hear. Because

34:52

you thought, I'm gone, I'm out

34:54

of the house, I left

34:56

all of this behind. Yes,

34:59

I think... What the

35:01

fuck? This is all inside of me? What

35:04

the fuck, yes. I

35:07

think I felt by

35:09

the time, like me

35:11

moving out, having

35:13

my independent life, having this relationship

35:18

with them that was not

35:20

there every day. I

35:23

can kind of come and go as I

35:25

can and regulate my interaction with

35:27

them. I think I

35:29

thought, oh, I definitely thought that we

35:31

were going

35:34

to help but I don't

35:36

think it has. And yeah,

35:39

it is just a... What

35:44

the fuck? What the

35:47

good thing about this, what do you call it? WTF?

35:53

I spell it out, that's why. You

36:00

know now, with a little

36:02

bit more clarity, what

36:05

is actually playing out inside

36:08

of you? When I

36:10

get close to someone, the

36:12

closeness triggers a

36:17

reenactment of

36:19

the trap that

36:22

my parents were in and that I

36:24

experienced in the overwhelming

36:26

sense of responsibility I

36:30

carried for mom. And

36:35

I need to learn to

36:38

experience closeness and

36:41

bring in different associations. You

36:44

know, my logical mind has

36:46

always... Nothing logical about this thing. This is

36:48

all in your belly, in your gut, not

36:51

in your head, which is why

36:54

the story you tell about

36:56

me coming close, honeymooned, and

36:58

moving away, fantasizing, that's the

37:00

storyline. But that doesn't tell

37:02

the actual

37:04

driver underneath, which is another story.

37:09

So when you want to flee, you'll

37:12

ask yourself, what just happened to

37:14

me? What did I

37:16

just feel? How did the

37:18

past just intrude on the present?

37:23

And what can I do in this

37:25

moment to anchor me in the present

37:27

in my life? Because

37:29

maybe this guy was anxious, but that

37:31

doesn't mean he was becoming another version

37:34

of your mom. And

37:38

you, another version of her son,

37:41

or he was becoming whoever

37:44

he was and you were becoming

37:46

mom or dad. See, there's very few

37:48

characters in this story. We

37:51

need new characters. It's a small story. Yeah.

37:53

No, it's a deep story. It's

37:55

a deep story. It's a deep story. It's

37:58

a painful story. But it... can

38:00

open up and bring in new

38:03

characters, new parts.

38:06

I think I'm ready for new characters. Can

38:09

I tell you something? The

38:12

beauty of making this a story

38:14

about sex and about

38:16

desire is that

38:18

it puts you in an adult

38:20

storyline. Adults

38:23

talk about desire and sex and fantasies for

38:25

others and all of that. And

38:27

so it covers up the fact

38:29

that it is the story of the little boy because

38:34

it plays itself out in

38:36

a pseudo version of an adult. Sex

38:40

is a good cover-up for that. I

38:43

agree. I think when I

38:46

described that relationship, I was like, that's

38:48

amazing. The adult

38:50

connection was amazing, but I still had that

38:53

process. Is

38:57

he around? The

39:00

relationship is strange. There

39:03

was a lot of hurt. There was a lot

39:05

of, I think, in a

39:08

sense, blindsided by

39:10

this sudden departure. You

39:12

said that I preferred that

39:15

we didn't talk. And that

39:17

was hurt. Unless you

39:20

can one day go and tell

39:22

him what you've learned about yourself, that

39:25

he became the subject

39:27

of and had nothing to do with him.

39:30

I still have very strong feelings towards

39:32

him. But for

39:36

us to re-spark that... No, we're

39:38

not talking about re-sparking. We're talking

39:40

about accountability. Yeah. Talking

39:43

about just clarifying and apologizing. Sometimes

39:46

I like to say he was recruited for a play

39:48

that he didn't audition for. Neither did

39:50

I, by the sound of this story. Under

39:54

drama, you are able to

39:57

begin to connect to dots.

40:00

And that's the beginning. That

40:04

really, so that you actually know

40:06

what happens to me. Now,

40:08

what happens to me at the end is

40:10

that I flee. But the first thing is a

40:13

host of very old feelings

40:17

get triggered inside of me. And

40:19

they bring me back to

40:21

a place of overwhelmed,

40:23

helpless, anger,

40:25

guilt, fear. It's a big

40:28

maelstrom of contradictory feelings. It's a

40:30

mess. And it's

40:32

intense and it's painful. I

40:34

first need to go and clear that up a

40:36

little bit so that

40:38

I can free myself to be in

40:41

my own relationship and not feel like

40:43

I'm branded. Yeah, I

40:46

imagine it's a story that's well called by

40:48

as much as myself. You're

40:51

not alone. Yeah. You're really not

40:53

alone. But we have strange

40:56

ways to protect ourselves sometimes. We

40:59

create other storyboards to not see

41:01

the real story. And we

41:03

all do that. Me included.

41:06

I'm gonna let you go here. Thank

41:08

you so much. Thank you, Esther. I

41:11

hope this was helpful. It was, thank you.

41:13

Thank you. This

41:23

was an Esther Calling, a one-time

41:25

intervention phone call recorded remotely from

41:27

two points somewhere in the world. If

41:30

you have a question you'd like to explore with

41:32

Esther could be answered in a 40 or 50

41:35

minute phone call, send her a

41:37

voice message and Esther might just call you. Send

41:40

your question to producer

41:42

at estherperel.com. Where

41:45

should we begin with Esther Perel is produced

41:47

by Magnificent Noise. We're part of

41:49

the Vox Media Podcast Network in

41:52

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our

41:55

production staff includes Eric Newsom,

41:57

Eva Walshover, Destry Sibley, Kiewete

41:59

Katana. Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor

42:01

Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian

42:04

Haag. Original music

42:06

and additional productions by Paul Schneider.

42:09

And the executive producers of Where Should

42:11

We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse

42:13

Baker. We'd also

42:15

like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

42:17

Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

42:19

Jack Voll. Original

42:22

music and additional productions by Paul Schneider. Support

42:28

for this show comes from Art Beats &

42:30

Lyrics, a new documentary from Vox Creative along

42:32

with Jack Daniels, Tennyson Honey, and Colt Creative.

42:35

Directed by Bill Horace, Art Beats & Lyrics

42:37

showcases how a humble art show has grown

42:40

into a cultural phenomenon. The

42:42

film unveils the origin stories of the event's

42:44

founder, Jabari Graham, and its curator, Dwayne W.

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Wright. Exploring how Atlanta

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has shaped their individual paths while also revealing

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their distinct roles within Art Beats & Lyrics.

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The documentary follows Jabari W. and several

42:56

of this year's featured artists as

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they gear up for AB&L's 20th

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anniversary tour, captivating thousands of fans

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