0:01

You know, I've been reflecting on

0:03

my past relationship. I've been

0:05

thinking about all the challenges I faced

0:07

and despite my desire

0:09

for a stable, fulfilling partnership,

0:11

I find myself repeating patterns

0:14

that have led to pain

0:17

and failure. I've

0:20

been married four times, I'm 46 now,

0:23

and each marriage ended in

0:25

divorce. In

0:27

my first marriage I experienced physical abuse

0:30

and in my third, emotional abuse. My

0:34

second and fourth husbands, they were good

0:37

men who I deeply respected

0:39

and yet I still betrayed

0:41

their trust through infidelity. I

0:43

ended all my marriages by

0:45

cheating on my husbands. I

0:49

was not happy in my

0:52

sexual life with any of

0:54

them until my current relationship,

0:57

which is with a married

0:59

man who became my affair

1:01

three and a half years

1:03

ago when I decided to

1:05

quit my fourth marriage. Now

1:08

he is on the

1:10

way out of his marriage

1:12

and it kind of gets

1:15

serious between us and

1:17

I feel that I start

1:19

to create problems for

1:22

us because as I understand myself,

1:24

I fear to make this relationship

1:28

serious because I'm afraid that

1:31

I will step into

1:33

the same pattern as I had before. Despite

1:37

my longing for a life partner,

1:39

I question really my ability to

1:41

maintain a healthy and stable relationship

1:44

and I question why I ended

1:47

all my relationships before

1:50

by cheating. They

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3:23

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3:27

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3:30

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3:32

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3:34

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3:36

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3:39

wanted to be able to share with

3:41

you the follow ups to the session.

3:43

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3:45

to density to stay together didn't have

3:47

the kids to the wanted to. this

3:50

allows me to share with you because

3:53

i actually do know and get notices

3:55

from the people and then turns the

3:57

for any of you for home these

3:59

matters This is the way for

4:01

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4:03

a session the way that it really

4:06

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4:08

I want to offer any of

4:10

you a 20% discount on

4:13

the annual membership on my

4:15

upper subscription Office Hours

4:17

with Estelle Parenne. I've

4:38

realized that this is a pattern,

4:40

like maybe already when it

4:42

was a second marriage because

4:45

it always started the

4:48

same and it continued the same

4:51

with different, totally different men. What

4:54

do you mean by it started the same? I

4:56

mean it started nicely bright

4:58

and with feelings and like

5:01

every time I was hoping

5:03

that yes, that's the

5:05

mystery right. Looking back,

5:07

I understand that I was choosing my

5:09

next man as a contradiction

5:11

to the previous one because

5:14

the previous one didn't happen to

5:17

be happy marriage and

5:22

it's really hard to

5:24

say but I feel I was

5:27

always looking for love, the love

5:29

which would give me a

5:32

feeling that I don't have to fight for

5:35

it or that I don't have to prove

5:37

I'm good enough to be loved. My

5:39

childhood was not easy. My

5:41

mother was sick with cancer on

5:44

my childhood and my dad

5:46

was always working. I was alone lots

5:49

of hours every day

5:52

entertaining myself and

5:54

I escaped home when I was 18 so I

5:58

Ran away basically. I

6:01

had more restrictions and things which are

6:03

for be then at home then those

6:05

things which are allowed it to do.

6:08

So. I really wanted

6:10

freedom, but I. Didn't.

6:12

Go free cell and it up. in

6:14

that relationship is a manhole is older

6:16

than me and. Basically.

6:19

I was calling from pirates in relationship

6:21

to another. And

6:23

I started of the supply said

6:26

like is it's something. I'm.

6:29

Desperately looking for and can

6:31

not find doesn't exist. What

6:33

I'm looking for as old

6:35

something is wrong with me

6:38

that I do not managed

6:40

to go for. Like two

6:42

to search proposition. For I

6:45

don't know Solicits they get

6:47

were a my sailing and

6:50

why contagious? See that it's

6:52

not gonna work within like

6:55

ersatz period of time. Why

6:57

do I dedicate to years

7:00

for such relationships? Why do

7:02

I. Pull for marriage

7:05

and. Why?

7:07

I. Choose.

7:10

Going for a fair to ended

7:12

up so it feels like I

7:14

can't actually going so jealous. Less

7:16

divorces, not working or. Less

7:19

break up so I'm making myself a

7:21

bad guy. or there. So

7:24

you're saying mister right? But you become

7:26

Mrs. Not right. He

7:29

has cyclists. And.

7:34

What? Com first extricating is

7:36

cells. So. The Affairs.

7:39

Are. Deciding that you wanna end and then

7:41

finding the best. Sure bet to

7:43

do so. I

7:46

think source said he said that

7:48

dates finance yes and I think

7:50

that on the am I was

7:53

catching myself on the thought that.

7:56

That. East I actually can look

7:58

at another man. It means. that

8:00

yeah, my feelings are over. Oh,

8:03

really? Do

8:06

the lovers become your next husbands? No.

8:11

So the lovers are just exit

8:13

strategies. Yes, so it was

8:15

always very short term, yes. So except

8:17

for this last one. Yes,

8:19

this last one is very special,

8:22

yes. But you are

8:24

basically, if I understood you well, you're

8:26

saying to me, as

8:29

we now have a clear slate to

8:32

be with each other, I am

8:35

so afraid that I'm gonna mess it

8:37

up. Yes. That I would rather

8:39

he not be available. Yes,

8:42

me choosing this relationship

8:45

which I have now, I

8:47

was very conscious when I was going

8:49

for it. So basically I opened a

8:52

computer and I didn't know that such

8:54

sites exist, websites, you know, for married

8:56

people. I really didn't know. And

8:59

we just took out a website

9:01

for married people, for

9:04

sex or something. I don't remember how I did it,

9:06

right? I don't know, but it

9:08

suddenly appeared and I was shocked

9:10

how many people are

9:14

there, married people looking

9:16

for affairs. And

9:19

I spent just two days on

9:21

that website because

9:24

I became overwhelmed of the

9:26

attention and amount of

9:28

messages I was receiving. And on the

9:31

day when I was already like on the way

9:33

out, I just

9:35

scrolled down and stopped and that

9:38

was everything. I

9:41

didn't have sex with my first husband

9:43

for three years before

9:45

actually I went for this. And

9:48

when I realized that, okay, I

9:51

just need to figure out am I

9:53

frigid like something's wrong with me? So,

9:58

and I thought that I don't want to go. find

10:00

someone who is not married

10:03

because it made me cause troubles

10:05

for me and it's

10:08

better on the safe side that we

10:10

both have married so that was the idea which

10:12

I had that in my head. It

10:15

started like very symmetrical so

10:17

we both wanted the same

10:19

and it was an escape for

10:21

both of us. I have a very sick

10:23

child, my second daughter

10:25

is a handicapped child and my

10:27

relationship at home was difficult despite

10:29

of the fact that my ex-husband

10:31

is a very nice man but

10:35

we just it didn't

10:37

work between us. We were

10:39

not talking almost at all and as

10:42

I mentioned we didn't have any sexual

10:44

life for years and it was

10:47

the same situation he said so when we

10:49

were meeting each other once per week or

10:51

once for two weeks we just had a

10:53

very great time escaping. And

10:56

in some months it started to

10:59

establish feelings for each other

11:01

and it became more and

11:03

more serious and that

11:06

was very first long

11:08

affair for both of us. I think

11:12

we both somehow tried

11:15

to fight this because

11:17

I had my fears,

11:19

he had his fears. They

11:22

are where we are now so it feels

11:25

that it can become something but

11:28

I have this fear inside me that am

11:31

I certain that this is this

11:34

is going to work or is

11:36

it going to fail again? Is

11:40

that or do you have it I

11:42

was waiting to see how you're

11:45

going to finish the sentence because

11:47

the four marriages the constant factor

11:49

is you. They may be four

11:51

very different men but they're

11:54

four times the same woman and

11:56

you probably can begin

11:58

to identify What are some

12:01

of the things that happen to you? In

12:04

the relationships. I don't know how long

12:06

they last. I don't know what

12:09

happens when you check out, when

12:11

you give up, when you

12:13

start to feel like I have to escape,

12:15

like you left and you escaped home. When

12:17

you start to feel that you are talking

12:20

to these men and experiencing them like you

12:22

experienced your father. When you

12:24

start to think, you know, will this

12:26

succeed? I have no idea. You're right

12:28

to think I'm not sure of anything.

12:30

You shouldn't be. But

12:32

you have questions about what's it with

12:34

me? I mean, you

12:37

don't seem to have a challenge

12:39

finding people. But

12:41

every time you find

12:43

yourself running and bolting,

12:47

that's probably the first question for me.

12:49

Because what you're asking me is what's

12:51

inside of me that's driving me? Is

12:53

there something broken? Is there something that

12:55

I'm not aware of? Is

12:57

there something I should watch out for? Because

13:00

I'm my worst enemy at this point. I

13:06

undermine myself. And

13:08

I could

13:10

go on. I could do 6, 7, 8.

13:13

But it's not like I don't pay a price. And

13:18

I do meet, and I do

13:20

fall in love, and I do go into La

13:22

La Land, and I do marry every one of

13:24

them. And of course they all marry me

13:27

too. And I don't know what

13:29

they think when I tell them about the previous ones. But

13:32

every single one of them thinks that maybe they'll

13:34

be different, or I'll be different with them. And

13:38

so everybody is in magical thinking

13:40

land. There's a lot of

13:42

fiction here. And now

13:45

there's someone that you care

13:47

about deeply who is leaving

13:49

his family to be with you. And

13:52

you kind of say, I don't

13:54

want him to destroy all of that. For

13:57

me, if it's going to be another

13:59

short-term, We

14:10

have to take a brief break, so

14:14

stay with us and let's see where

14:16

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18:04

So what do you know? What

18:06

do you know about your experience? Not

18:08

so much about what you do. The

18:12

affairs is the strategy. The affairs

18:15

is the symptom. The affairs is not

18:17

the cause. What

18:19

happens to you in those

18:21

attachments that you form and

18:23

in the way that you

18:25

need to sever them very

18:28

abruptly. I

18:31

never had many relationships. For

18:34

relationships, they have been long, all of

18:36

them. They took me years. So

18:39

it's been five, seven,

18:42

five and five. So

18:44

I've been really trying to

18:46

save all of them, despite of

18:48

the fact that usually in approximately one

18:50

or two years, it

18:53

would be already obvious. It's

18:55

not going to work. And when

18:57

you say it's not going to work,

19:01

or even when you say I'm looking for

19:03

love, you're looking for what? What's

19:06

the fantasy that every single one of these

19:08

men is going to what? Rescue you from

19:11

what? I

19:13

don't think I actually was looking for rescue,

19:15

but I think I was looking for freedom.

19:19

Looking at all them

19:21

for, they

19:23

actually put me in prison, but in another

19:26

type. So

19:28

the first one was really dominating,

19:30

dominating badly. Like

19:33

he was eight years older and I was 18. He

19:36

was trying to change me by all means,

19:39

you know, like change me what my mother

19:41

made of me and change into something else.

19:44

But I don't think I really knew who I

19:46

am because I was not allowed to say no.

19:49

I was not allowed to say I don't want

19:51

to do this or that. I

19:54

was punished. I was bitten.

19:56

I wasn't used to actually

19:58

express my desires. I'm

20:01

not sure that I actually knew

20:03

what my desires are. I

20:07

also used to do what I was

20:09

told to and that's why this first

20:11

relationship I felt even comfortable in it.

20:15

Like because, yeah, it was another

20:17

person who was saying to me what I should

20:19

do. Like your

20:21

dad had done. No, my

20:23

mom. My father was working

20:26

a lot. He's actually a great person

20:28

and I was, but

20:30

I didn't know him really when I

20:32

was a child. So we found each

20:34

other much later in my life when

20:36

my mom died and we

20:38

started to talk more and now

20:41

we are quite close. But

20:43

during my childhood, I even didn't remember him

20:45

and not very long time ago I asked

20:47

him, like, where have you been? Like why

20:50

don't I remember you? And

20:53

he said that, well, yeah, he traveled a lot. He

20:56

was working, basically constantly working.

20:58

And my mom, she was dealing with cancer and

21:00

with two children. And your mom

21:02

is the one that put the restrictions. Yes.

21:05

Yes. So every time I met a

21:07

man, I thought I

21:10

would finally experience freedom. But

21:12

every time I found myself back

21:15

in another version of

21:17

the prison that was familiar to

21:19

me, in which somebody

21:21

dictates to me, either

21:23

through soft power, either

21:26

through overt power, either

21:28

through being a

21:31

perpetrator, either through being a victim. Exactly.

21:36

Because if I take

21:38

my last marriage, then

21:41

my ex-husband became basically my

21:43

teenage child. So

21:46

he was a very nice

21:48

person, but he didn't manage to take

21:50

care of himself really while we

21:53

were together. And

21:55

I had him, I had

21:57

two of my children, where my youngest

21:59

woman, is a handicapped child and he

22:01

sent from the first marriage. First

22:04

wife died of cancer as well. So

22:09

I got suddenly many kids I

22:13

had to take care of and I've

22:15

been constantly working. I've

22:18

been arranging activities for

22:21

children, buying clothes

22:23

for everyone, including my husband, ordering

22:26

a hairdresser visits for him

22:28

as well. And then

22:31

I realized that that's not life. I remember

22:34

I came home after work late and he

22:36

was very good at cooking so he loved

22:38

taking care of kids and

22:40

making food. So I thought

22:42

we switched the roles and I

22:45

stopped feeling myself as a woman and

22:47

maybe that's why our sex life stopped

22:49

as well because you cannot have sex

22:52

with your son basically.

22:56

And that's

22:58

a horrible, horrible, terrible feeling

23:00

and I remember I

23:02

was on the coach in front of

23:05

the TV and I thought okay and that's

23:07

it. So this is how

23:09

my life is

23:11

going to be and I

23:13

really loved life

23:17

all my life despite of everything that happened

23:19

to me, all the challenges I had. And

23:22

I just wanted so much to

23:25

at least allow myself to think can

23:28

it be different? But

23:30

interestingly you come to me

23:33

asking me why

23:35

do I cheat repeatedly?

23:38

Why do I leave

23:41

my marriages with the affairs? Or why

23:43

do I resort to affairs period?

23:45

And then why do I resort to

23:47

affairs as a marital

23:50

escape? And I

23:52

have another question. I mean

23:55

it actually is quite obvious to me and that

23:57

doesn't mean it's true but that's the thing. thought

24:00

that came to me, that if

24:03

in every marriage you find yourself either

24:05

the mother or the daughter,

24:08

then leaving with an affair is

24:10

leaving as a woman. Ah,

24:14

that's so beautiful and sad, isn't it? Now

24:18

you suddenly made me not feeling guilty. But

24:25

that's not, my good is not about

24:28

cleansing your conscience. My hope

24:32

is to help you make sense.

24:35

If there's a question, it is

24:37

why do I find myself continuously

24:39

hoping to leave the relationship I

24:42

had with my mom, but actually

24:44

recreating it in all its glory

24:46

in multiple colors and forms? That's

24:49

the question. The

24:52

fact that I use sex and

24:55

infidelity to leave, because it's actually

24:57

more sex than anything else, is

25:01

because once I become sexual, I

25:03

feel free. Once

25:06

I am sexual, I am not

25:08

in a child role, either restricted,

25:11

beaten up, abused, clamored,

25:15

and I'm not in a motherly role, because

25:17

as a mom, I'm also not having sex.

25:20

So it takes the form of the

25:22

affairs, and your partners

25:25

will experience it as such. But

25:27

if you ask, what is the meaning? Why

25:31

is this my strategy? Why

25:35

don't I leave simply saying I want

25:37

out? Because I don't

25:39

feel free enough to leave. So basically they

25:41

end up saying we're gone. I

25:44

mean, I am the one instigating it, but

25:47

they're participating. And

25:49

I leave through the use

25:51

of sex, because sex represents for me

25:54

being a woman, not a child or

25:56

a mom, and being free, even if it's

25:58

short term. It makes sense. The

26:00

real question is why am I trapped in

26:03

constantly putting myself with the same kind of

26:05

people? They may

26:07

be different in color, race,

26:09

religion, language, etc. But

26:13

the relationship I develop with each and every one

26:15

of them always lands me in the same spot.

26:21

That's the question. Yeah. The

26:24

question is about how do I enter, not about

26:26

how do I exit. What

26:28

do you think of this? I

26:30

think it's very, very true. You're

26:32

absolutely right. In two marriages

26:35

I felt myself as a daughter and

26:37

in other two marriages I felt myself

26:39

as a mother. They

26:41

all started that I

26:43

felt myself as a woman. But

26:46

when we moved together, so the

26:48

situation started to change. But

26:51

the question which remains is

26:53

was it me who influenced

26:56

those men to become other?

26:58

Either children or my fathers.

27:01

Or it was something

27:04

what I didn't saw in the beginning

27:06

of the relationship. This relationship which I

27:08

have now, it hasn't been six months

27:10

or one year, it has been

27:12

three and a half years when usually all

27:15

my previous relationships would end

27:17

basically, almost. I've

27:20

been really learning myself during

27:23

the last two years trying to

27:26

work on my traumas, my childhood

27:28

traumas. I worked with a therapist

27:30

and spent time on

27:32

learning what do I really like

27:36

and what gives me

27:39

pleasure, really trying to meet

27:41

myself. Because I felt

27:43

that I've been trying to please everyone

27:45

in my life. Just

27:47

as trying to please my parents and my husbands,

27:50

my employers. And this

27:52

relationship I don't have to. So we

27:55

are in a very, quite

27:57

amazing partnership. And

28:00

that feels very good. And

28:02

this is something that I'm so afraid

28:05

to destroy by

28:08

some move which

28:11

I will not even understand. Such

28:15

as? That's

28:17

a good question. What's your fantasy

28:19

of the fatal blow? It

28:23

has always been a

28:25

moment when feelings started

28:28

to get weaker. With everyone.

28:32

And I cannot say what

28:35

exactly happened which

28:37

brought me to the point that feelings

28:39

started to fade away. It

28:42

fades from what to what.

28:45

I start stopping loving you.

28:48

And I feel what instead. Emptiness,

28:51

irritation, I want

28:54

to isolate myself to

28:56

be on my own, to have

28:59

my own space, to not be around.

29:02

But very often I first would

29:05

want in is physical connection. And

29:10

what do you think that represents? I

29:12

don't know how old me please. How

29:15

old were you when your mom died? I

29:18

was 30. 30,

29:20

three zero, yes. So she

29:23

has been sick for 25 years basically. She

29:29

had some remissions but I guess they would

29:32

come back and like three times I think

29:34

has been around. And

29:38

what was the soundtrack

29:40

that would go in your head when

29:45

you would think of her? You're

29:48

so sad, you're also angry,

29:52

you are so gray, you never

29:54

smile, you

29:56

never want to celebrate her birthday, you

29:59

never have to be sad. happy about Christmas

30:02

or New Year's Eve. You

30:04

never want to have presents. You

30:07

never want me to be around.

30:09

You like my friends more than

30:11

me. You call

30:14

them nice names and you never call

30:16

me that. So I can continue. Keep

30:20

going. Keep going. And

30:25

I feel... I feel sad. I

30:27

feel sad. I feel

30:29

so sorry for small me because

30:34

I understand that she had a very

30:36

tough life, most of her

30:38

life. Like many years

30:41

of terrible sickness and having

30:43

two children to raise. And

30:45

we didn't live in

30:48

a very easy

30:51

environment that time because I

30:53

was 13 when the

30:56

Soviet Union collapsed. And we

30:59

had no food for a period of

31:01

time. So it was long queues and

31:03

just to get food home. That was a

31:05

big problem. So

31:07

and the sun has been through a lot,

31:10

but I feel it damaged me. I didn't

31:15

learn how the love

31:20

looks like really. I haven't seen

31:22

that between her and my father.

31:26

And I didn't experience how the love

31:28

looks like between a parent and a

31:31

child either. And

31:34

when you start to distance and

31:37

to remove yourself and

31:39

to shut down sexually and

31:42

to withhold your own affections, what

31:46

precipitates it? What inside

31:48

of you predisposes

31:50

you to that cut off?

31:55

Well, I guess I'm looking for kindness,

31:58

like to be in my own. world

32:00

and to be safe

32:04

to like

32:06

when I'm with myself I'm safe.

32:10

What is it that you notice a

32:12

year into your marriages that

32:15

is giving you

32:17

the cue time

32:19

to withdraw time to cut

32:21

off down to shut

32:23

down sexually? Disappointments.

32:26

Okay, that's what it is. One

32:29

disappointment after another disappointment after

32:31

another I always gave chances,

32:33

hopes and especially in

32:35

the last one I learned to speak out

32:37

and talk about things which I

32:40

find difficult or I don't like or I

32:42

would like to have a different but

32:46

I believe I always had a had

32:48

hopes which maybe

32:51

not always have been

32:53

realistic. Tell me more. Because

32:57

the person who doesn't know

33:00

what love is learns love

33:02

from books, movies and

33:05

all that is artificial somebody made it

33:07

up and then when you

33:09

meet real people you maybe want them

33:13

to be that character you

33:15

see and features in

33:17

them but then real life

33:20

happens and you start getting

33:22

disappointed because the person

33:24

is not as you imagined it

33:26

from the very beginning. So

33:29

that's the rescue. The

33:32

rescue is you will

33:35

pick me up and drop me

33:39

into perfect love land

33:42

without any boo-boos no

33:46

frictions no fractures never

33:49

disappointments I'll

33:51

give you everything I have and

33:55

you'll transport me to

33:57

this haven where

34:00

I am cherished and adored and

34:03

desired and made to

34:05

feel valued. And when

34:08

it starts to become clear that that's not going

34:10

to happen, I basically

34:12

raise my sails and

34:14

off I go. Yeah. We

34:25

are in the midst of our session

34:28

and there is still so much

34:30

to talk about. We need to

34:32

take a brief break, so stay with us. Support

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38:00

fucking in that same terrible experience

38:03

is for you. Do more with

38:05

return. I

38:10

starts by withdrawing sexually.

38:12

Me: Besides. The

38:14

fact that I have a sense

38:17

and the girl are you? I'm

38:19

the parents I would hold sex

38:21

because. I seats

38:23

as a currency for love it suggests

38:25

a deprive myself of my own says

38:28

oh and anything it simply you don't

38:30

deserve this and I'm not giving you

38:32

squirt. Hurt you. Cannot.

38:35

There for me and I don't give you.

38:38

Because. Even though I

38:40

like it and I enjoy it and

38:42

a context of marriage, it's. Part of

38:44

merits of duty. It's

38:46

the thing I do when I'm nice. It

38:50

sounds very sad. That sex is

38:52

a duty. When. It's not

38:54

always the did mean said I'd do

38:56

the things I do to be nice.

38:58

You tell me if I'm Beth, I'm

39:01

thinking out loud and I need the

39:03

Us. And I'm

39:05

watching your eyes were later. On.

39:11

I don't seem to I ah.

39:15

Parties. To any of them

39:17

this saying no east I'd

39:19

freely one tent. Or

39:22

but I didn't want any more. But

39:24

sit flush and as this is not

39:26

I am is that the wanting those

39:29

the moment you start to withdraw. In

39:32

it is like the. It's

39:34

the alarm system. Is

39:38

the place where I know that I'm

39:40

open Said I gave myself to you

39:42

that I invite you in. And

39:45

when I. Experience of

39:47

my disappointments. It's the

39:49

first. Thing. That closes

39:51

up. Does it

39:54

mean that I actually punished

39:56

them with that? And it

39:58

was in my. that

40:01

I can give myself to somebody else.

40:04

You tell me you don't experience

40:06

it as punishing. You're experiencing it, you

40:08

experience it more as lack

40:10

of connection and self-protection. They may experience

40:12

it as punishing, but for you that's

40:15

not the verb that resonates. No,

40:17

that's true. I know that. I think it's

40:19

more the feeling of you

40:22

hurt me. I protect

40:25

myself. I protect

40:27

myself by

40:29

not wanting to be touched by you. Stay

40:32

away. Don't come

40:34

close. Is that resonant?

40:37

Yes. It was

40:39

surely an escape. This is how I

40:43

named it for myself as well.

40:45

I never had affairs as well for

40:47

a very long time. So usually it would take

40:49

a month and then I'm off

40:53

out of the marriage. But

40:55

when this last affair

40:57

started, I called it an escape.

40:59

Do your husbands know them? I

41:03

mean, do they know of the affairs? No.

41:06

They don't know. So one day

41:08

you come and you just say, I want out? Basically,

41:12

yes. After I did that, then

41:14

I had enough

41:17

energy or power inside me

41:20

to say that, yes,

41:23

now it's over.

41:25

Then what would happen? They would

41:27

say, yay, nay. They would fight. They would hope

41:29

to convince you to stay. They would say, go

41:31

ahead. Most of

41:33

them were trying to convince me

41:36

to try more and stay and

41:38

work on the marriage and such.

41:40

But usually it would be already

41:42

a couple of years after

41:44

I started to express my disappointments

41:49

or needs

41:52

in something that they were not giving me.

41:54

Actually, I was asking, let's

41:57

work on it. none

42:00

of them would do that. And then

42:02

we come to the point like in

42:04

two years time that I'm saying, Okay,

42:06

it's over. And then they are willing

42:08

actually to start doing something.

42:10

And for me,

42:13

when it's done, it's done already. So

42:16

this is kind of no return point.

42:19

And especially if basically

42:23

cheated already, I went for

42:27

an affair. So for me, it's no

42:30

go for coming back. Because

42:36

mostly because that I'm going

42:38

for an affair already when it's totally

42:41

empty. Right. I

42:43

mean, I'm on my way out and I

42:45

need something to strengthen me. So I'm not

42:48

completely alone. So I have someone

42:50

else who really is with me, even if

42:52

it's just for the transition. And

42:54

those are exit strategies. To call

42:57

them affairs is just a means to

42:59

an end. And

43:03

they may last for a couple of months afterwards. And

43:05

then that's it, they did their job. I

43:08

feel empowered. I

43:10

feel like they have a man by my side.

43:12

I am not alone. And

43:15

I basically accomplished my mission. And

43:18

mission is an escape. Yeah,

43:20

yeah, yeah, to get out of there

43:22

as fast as I can. To

43:25

go where to go for

43:28

another round one. With

43:30

the same magical thinking, with

43:33

the same fantasy of what

43:36

romantic love should basically

43:38

protect me from ever

43:41

feeling alone, ever feeling

43:43

disappointed, ever feeling needy

43:46

or unmet. Ever

43:49

feeling those longings that I had my

43:51

whole life. You

43:53

get to forget something once, maybe twice

43:55

by the third time, some

43:58

very old feelings. begin to

44:00

come back up and it

44:02

starts to feel so familiar and

44:05

it's a kind of an emotional desert in

44:07

which we are

44:09

tied by what? By

44:12

dependency, by need, by

44:15

caretaking, by duty,

44:19

by responsibility. Yeah,

44:21

that was a lot of... Okay.

44:24

All words you used for a mom

44:26

and you. And it's

44:29

quite fantastic how scotch free

44:31

your father is.

44:33

He's basically just seen as the man

44:35

who worked. He's

44:38

untouched. I

44:42

think he was the one who

44:44

actually knew what he wants, how

44:46

he wants it, and how to

44:48

live a good life. Yes,

44:51

but he left her with

44:53

the two children and is

44:56

not held accountable. He

44:58

was providing the family. That

45:00

was kind of normal, you know. At that

45:04

time, in that country,

45:06

it was a usual

45:08

thing. That man worked,

45:11

giving money to the wife and

45:14

going back to work. And

45:16

women would be taking care of

45:18

everything, like children and household. My

45:22

mother, she had her own traumas, her

45:24

own childhood, her own issues, her troubles

45:26

with her mother. I really

45:28

don't know why she was coping

45:31

with staying alone

45:35

for long periods of time and being sick

45:37

and taking care of us and

45:39

me and my sister. I

45:43

never saw them close. I never

45:45

saw them loving. I never saw

45:47

them... I don't

45:49

remember us sitting around the table and

45:51

talking with each other even. Did you

45:54

see that your friend's home? Oh

45:57

yes. My neighbor and we

45:59

were... were often visiting each

46:01

other and I was always

46:03

so... I don't know

46:06

if the word jealous is right

46:08

to use in this particular circumstance,

46:10

but yeah. I really

46:12

like, I was admiring

46:15

how her parents were looking at

46:17

each other. And you know

46:19

what's interesting, her father, he was

46:22

a pilot, my current boyfriend.

46:25

He is a pilot too and he even reminds me

46:27

a little bit how my

46:29

friend's father looked

46:31

like. And

46:34

what does that mean for you? I'm always happy when

46:36

I think about it because

46:40

that home, maybe that

46:42

was the only real life, not

46:48

books and not movies, but actually real

46:50

relationship, which

46:53

is so where the love was so

46:55

obvious. Love

46:58

for children, how they loved their

47:00

daughters and how they expressed their

47:02

love, how they loved, how

47:05

they celebrated all the holidays.

47:08

And that was something

47:10

what I definitely desired for myself.

47:14

How are you with your daughters? Oh,

47:17

I love them very much. I

47:19

love them very much, but I do not control them. Well,

47:22

the youngest one, she's handicapped. So

47:25

she's in like 50% home and

47:27

50% in the special institution and

47:31

she doesn't talk and it's not

47:33

much of such communication with

47:36

her, but my oldest one, she's 19

47:39

and she's moving out this summer.

47:42

I love her very much of course. And

47:45

I've been very different with her compared

47:49

to how my mother was with me.

47:52

And how has it been for

47:54

her to travel these multiple marital

47:56

units? She is a

47:58

daughter of my second husband. And

48:02

she has got her trauma, I guess, because

48:05

of that, especially because of my third

48:07

husband, the father of my second daughter,

48:10

because that relationship

48:12

was extremely difficult. But

48:15

my fourth marriage, she was already

48:17

a teenager when it happened, and

48:19

it was easier, I guess, for

48:21

me. I was always open with

48:23

her. I don't know, but I've

48:25

never been afraid of showing my

48:27

feelings to her and explaining

48:30

her things. And

48:34

it can be that she will have

48:36

to work with a therapist later

48:39

on as well. But

48:42

you're saying, I have been trying with

48:45

the therapist to address

48:49

how my relationship with my mother

48:51

and the emotional desert that

48:53

I felt I was living in has

48:57

accompanied me in the course of my

48:59

life, how it completely

49:01

created idealistic expectations for me

49:04

in what love is,

49:07

in a very childlike way, that

49:09

love should be a permanent state

49:11

of enthusiasm, that it should have

49:14

no ripples and no cracks.

49:19

And that in a way didn't prepare

49:21

me, except for knowing how to leave.

49:23

I don't know much what to do

49:26

when I have disappointments, when

49:28

I'm sad, when I'm hurt. And

49:31

it's not that I don't tell the partners, but

49:33

I don't know how you told and I don't

49:35

know who you chose to tell it to. So

49:39

then I realized

49:41

at one point, I'm going to go. And

49:44

then I basically start preparing myself for a year

49:47

or two on how

49:49

to extricate myself from here financially,

49:52

emotionally, logistically.

49:56

And then I basically, the

49:59

affair is just a moment. Just a fatal blow.

50:01

I just bring the big gun to

50:05

make sure that I succeed. And

50:09

that there is no return possible. I

50:12

am completely shut down

50:14

to any of these men.

50:17

They can talk to me anything they

50:19

want. Nothing enters anymore. I've

50:22

opened another little window to another

50:24

guy on the side, but to

50:26

them husbands, I'm completely

50:28

done. And now I

50:31

am with someone, and it's

50:33

been a bit of a different pattern. And

50:36

so here's the question for me. How

50:38

do I learn? Because

50:42

once we are just us,

50:44

and we've cleared all the

50:47

families, because it's families that

50:49

are involved,

50:52

what will happen to us? As

50:56

long as there is other people, when

50:58

he disappoints me, I can also think

51:00

of it structurally. It's because

51:03

he's not available. It's because he's flying.

51:05

It's because we have still divorces to

51:07

go through, et cetera. But once it's

51:10

just him and I, does this put

51:12

me back in exactly the same situation

51:15

where I put myself completely at the

51:17

mercy of everything he says and does

51:19

to prove

51:22

our love, and

51:24

then basically put myself

51:26

in this most vulnerable place where

51:29

I am just the recipient of

51:33

what he will or will not bestow

51:36

upon me. And

51:38

that's the structure that needs to shift.

51:41

As long as there are obstacles, I

51:44

can kind of rationalize the

51:46

shortcomings, the disappointments, the letdowns,

51:48

et cetera. But

51:50

once we're just us, I

51:53

don't want to put him in

51:55

the same examination, because I know

51:57

he will fail, because everybody does.

52:00

because nobody is perfect. No

52:03

man will undo the

52:06

legacy of your mother.

52:08

You will. I'm

52:15

not capable of answering that after

52:18

one hour like this, honestly. What

52:20

I did think is, when

52:23

they hurt you, the sadness

52:26

and the anger that

52:28

come up, like a

52:30

volcano, much of it doesn't

52:33

belong to them. It belongs to

52:36

you and her. And if

52:38

that rage, which

52:40

is a combination of sadness and

52:42

helplessness and anger,

52:44

erupts inside of you, then

52:47

in some interesting way she remains in control

52:49

of your life. You may have

52:52

left, you may have

52:54

run five times, four times

52:56

in marriages and many others, but

52:58

in effect she continues

53:00

to have the control that you

53:02

so ardently have hoped to

53:06

escape. Still, even

53:09

now. In those moments. I

53:13

hope so much that I actually already kind of

53:18

worked through this mother

53:20

thing connection and managed

53:22

to cut it, at

53:26

least with forgiveness and... To

53:29

her. Right. But it's

53:33

the moment when the man that

53:35

has been identified as the source

53:37

of love, redemption and repair, when

53:39

he misses. And even

53:41

when he misses again, that's the

53:43

moment. But

53:48

does it mean that it's all my fault

53:51

that all my marriages collapsed? That's

53:55

all. No, but you came to

53:57

ask me about your part. And

54:00

when you are in them and you're about

54:02

to leave them, you tell

54:04

yourself the story as they let

54:07

you down. They became

54:09

abusive. They became infantilized.

54:12

They didn't do their part. They

54:15

made it impossible for you to tolerate

54:17

this. When you're with

54:19

them, you don't think, what am I doing?

54:21

You think, what are they doing to me? And

54:25

how am I reacting to that? When

54:28

you're with me, you say, this is

54:30

true, but it sits on a set

54:32

of expectations. So I'm

54:34

basically escaping not them, but I'm escaping

54:37

my feelings,

54:40

what's hurting me. Unexpressed

54:42

expectations are

54:46

predetermined resentments. When

54:49

you meet them, you idealize them and you

54:51

put on them a host of things which

54:53

they don't even know. And

54:55

then they fall from grace. How shall

54:57

I know that now it's different?

55:02

I don't know. I wish I

55:05

could tell you everything like

55:07

that after an hour,

55:09

but I can't. I

55:12

would be saying just generalities

55:15

and that would be fair to

55:17

you. So

55:19

here's a perfect example of

55:22

a conversation that will end

55:24

with a frustration. You

55:31

want to know, is it different? This is

55:34

the moment you can make a difference. You

55:38

know, it's interesting because I kind of, I felt,

55:40

it was the moment I felt like so

55:43

much lighter. And now I

55:45

feel again like, welcome

55:49

to life. Yes,

55:58

exactly. But heaviness is

56:01

a disappointment. And

56:03

it doesn't feel good, but it's

56:05

not by

56:08

definition a tear. This

56:23

was an Aster calling, a one-time

56:26

intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two

56:28

points somewhere in the world. If

56:31

you have a question you'd like to explore with Aster,

56:33

could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute

56:35

phone call, send her a voice message

56:37

and Aster might just call you. Send

56:40

your question to producer

56:42

at asterperel.com. Where

56:46

Should We Begin with Aster Perel is produced

56:49

by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the

56:51

Vox Media Podcast Network in

56:53

partnership with New York Magazine

56:55

and LaConte. Our production staff

56:57

includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley,

56:59

Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Moeller, and

57:02

Julian Abt. Original music

57:04

and additional productions by Paul Schneider.

57:08

And the executive producers of Where Should

57:10

We Begin are Aster Perel and Jesse

57:12

Baker. We'd

57:14

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary

57:16

Alice Miller, and Jack Falk. Support

57:29

for the show comes from Showtime. We

57:32

need to talk. The acclaimed

57:34

Showtime original docuseries, Couple Therapy, returns

57:36

with an addictive and revealing new

57:38

season. Dr. Orna is back in

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session, helping four new couples grapple

57:43

with real issues, from religion and

57:45

sex to polyamorous power dynamics. Collider

57:48

says it's like nothing else on TV.

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Break up or break through on the

57:54

new season of Couple Therapy. Couple

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Therapy is now streaming with the Paramount Plus

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with Showtime plan. visit paramountplus.com

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