0:01

Doesn't. Matter the gender of the versus Most

0:03

of the time where men. And

0:06

is. The source of the

0:08

discontent. Similar. Most

0:10

of the time is because I consider

0:13

them extremely incompetent and out again to

0:15

the same time. It's either one of

0:17

the other men who can be both

0:19

when you can't be incompetent and I

0:22

target it. To me, that's a bit

0:24

too much. Housework.

0:32

Is an unscripted one time counseling

0:34

session focused on work. For.

0:37

The purposes of maintaining

0:39

confidentiality names employers, and

0:41

other identifiable characteristics have

0:43

been removed. But

0:45

their voices and their stories are

0:48

real. Support.

0:59

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slash begin. Hello!

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2:10

and even how we love. I

2:13

can't wait to see you. Get

2:15

your tickets at estherperel.com/

2:18

tour. When

2:26

I first meet a couple, I

2:28

meet them on paper. I

2:30

read the summary of

2:32

the intake interview that my

2:35

producers do. And as I

2:37

read, my mind goes

2:39

into what matters here. What's important

2:41

to gather the

2:44

basics in order to

2:46

begin layering the scaffolding of this

2:50

relationship. I'd also decided that as

2:52

I met them, I would just

2:54

introduce what I had gathered from

2:56

the story. Let me tell you what I know

2:59

about you so far. This is

3:01

what I picked up. You

3:06

are together nine years. You

3:09

are working in the same international organization.

3:13

You are new parents

3:16

of a 10 month old little boy.

3:19

You met in Italy

3:22

and then went together to

3:24

Kenya, then found your way to

3:27

New York. For

3:29

a while you had a rising

3:32

career and you were

3:34

the following, girlfriend, spouse,

3:38

which induced some fear in you because that

3:40

is also what you saw at home. Dad

3:43

had a career, mom followed suit. For

3:47

the first time, you also

3:49

were working from home or with

3:51

home, as I like to say. And

3:54

since you work in the same organization, you

3:56

actually got to see each other at Work

3:59

in ways that you never did before. The never had

4:01

before and so you discovered some

4:03

aspects of each other that you

4:05

previously were not as familiar with.

4:08

Including that she may be sweet

4:10

and smiling and Fifty The says

4:12

that she is fierce at work

4:14

or what you call in tennis

4:16

and that she has a recurrent

4:18

problem with bosses. Ah,

4:20

and that of that recurrent problem with

4:23

both for seems to be reminiscent of

4:25

a sudden dynamic that you had read

4:27

your father who's attention and praise you

4:30

always sought. But then when you got

4:32

it, didn't think it was enough. On

4:35

and what you got to see on

4:37

the other side is that your partner,

4:40

your wife am what I said The

4:42

way that your wife is actually as

4:44

equally friendly with the people at work

4:46

as soon as we do you not

4:48

even getting special treatment. It's

4:50

just who she is. have you

4:53

the beneficiary of it and that.

4:55

You are wondering since I've

4:58

had many jobs. And.

5:00

It's always need leaving because I don't get

5:02

along with the bus. Maybe it's not always

5:04

the boss does the problem because amd upon

5:06

some fact. What

5:10

am I did? do? I did. I get

5:12

it to. I miss things. They.

5:14

Think you got it completely. Their

5:17

impressive. I went with them. Be

5:19

blown out of the them out

5:21

of prison Saw amount of this

5:24

is awesome putting the pieces together.

5:26

Know what we need to delineate

5:28

the menu and his idea of

5:31

should own person. When.

5:35

I meet these two women.

5:38

First. Divorce as if we are older

5:40

than actually. And. I

5:43

asked him to pitch. Some. Names

5:45

and interestingly they booed

5:48

immediately choose American sounding

5:50

me. As. If to

5:52

say. Our story is broader.

5:55

and trend since the borders and

5:57

the boundaries and mississippi city of

5:59

rx Say that Nina

6:02

and Kay. Where

6:08

should we start? So

6:10

one of the main reasons why we're

6:14

here is changing jobs because

6:16

of this very strong push

6:18

factor which has always been

6:21

your bosses and and I

6:24

you've changed many different jobs. What's

6:26

your timeline? Six months, nine months?

6:28

Two years. Two years, yeah. Not

6:30

that. But just because it

6:32

takes time for five. Okay,

6:35

a year and a half. By a year and

6:37

a half you start looking. Then

6:40

it takes about before looking how much time

6:42

obsessing about why it's not working. I

6:44

would say the honeymoon lasts about six to

6:47

eight months. Then it's half

6:49

to a year to say again,

6:51

really tough and then six months

6:53

maybe it should change and then

6:55

this is it. So

7:00

what is it that

7:02

makes Nina able

7:04

to switch at

7:07

a speed that is uncommon in

7:09

the field? You're

7:12

very good and and everybody recognizes

7:14

that. You get a lot of

7:17

recognition at work. You

7:19

work in a very specific sector so

7:21

there aren't many of you which you

7:23

know can help in a way so

7:25

people know you. You're reputation arrives.

7:29

These push factors of you know bosses

7:31

that make you miserable is

7:33

there. They know it? Most

7:37

of them I'm quite vocal. Yeah. They

7:41

know the extent to which they make

7:43

them miserable. So I'm never

7:45

very open about how difficult the situation

7:47

is. I'm not used to confront people

7:49

so when I do it's because I

7:51

reached the limit. That's

7:53

a clear childhood pattern. I wasn't allowed

7:56

to confront my father so that's

7:58

clearly. happening here too. Doesn't

8:01

matter the gender of the person. Most of

8:03

the time we're men, only

8:05

in one case it was a woman. It's

8:07

easier for me to have a

8:10

little bit of friction with men for sure. And

8:14

is the source of the discontent similar?

8:17

Most of the time is because

8:19

I consider them extremely incompetent and

8:21

arrogant at the same time, which

8:23

is combination which I don't. It's

8:26

either one or the other. I mean, it can't be

8:29

both. You can't

8:31

be incompetent and arrogant. To me that's

8:33

a bit too much because the arrogance,

8:36

because the arrogance associated with

8:39

power has a lot

8:42

of full repercussions on my work. If

8:45

you are simply incompetent and you let me

8:47

be, fine. You know,

8:49

we go along. And if you are arrogant

8:52

and good, I don't have

8:54

much problem in following you because I

8:56

recognize the leadership. Unfortunately,

8:58

most of the time where I had problems

9:01

was a combination of two. So I didn't

9:03

recognize the leadership that I

9:05

was forced to follow. One

9:08

other question. Do

9:10

you find yourself as the main person

9:13

or even the only person at odds

9:16

with your boss? Or

9:18

is this

9:20

systemic? But you

9:22

are the more, you

9:24

have enough power that you actually can even

9:27

voice your complaint. It's definitely

9:29

systemic most of the time. I'm

9:31

not sure it's just power. It's

9:34

just that I seem to be

9:36

less able to stand it than other colleagues.

9:38

Other colleagues say, yeah, yeah, whatever. Fine,

9:41

tomorrow is another day. But

9:43

something sit with me way

9:46

more than with other people. Editor.

9:53

Thank you. Even

9:56

when you were working in the

9:58

other office in... Africa, there

10:00

maybe it was only you. Well,

10:05

in Africa. The issue was

10:08

a particular one because I think that, you

10:10

know, we are always focused about the fact

10:12

that I change work because

10:14

there is a boss I don't go along

10:16

with. And this is true.

10:18

Most of the time, there is

10:20

a part that I am ambitious.

10:23

There is something in me that I cannot

10:25

even explain, where I always look for

10:27

the next challenge. I

10:30

mean, in the middle of the pandemic, I started

10:32

my third master. How cool, cool

10:34

one can be. I mean, it's

10:36

fantastic. I loved it. But

10:39

how much it has impacted on our

10:42

life. I mean, I worked every single,

10:44

I started every single weekend for

10:46

18 months. Sometimes

10:50

I don't even know why I'm doing

10:52

it. Why am I getting into things

10:54

that do not necessarily, things that make

10:56

me happy? Well, one thing that doesn't

10:58

help is that every time you were

11:00

when you started working in this organization,

11:02

when you every time you change job,

11:04

every time you went up another level,

11:07

you got a lot of praise from a

11:09

certain person and a lot

11:11

of recognition from your father. And it made

11:13

him really happy. Although

11:16

he has never

11:19

explicitly asked for it. Yeah,

11:22

it doesn't need to. But he doesn't

11:24

need anymore because he planted such good

11:26

seeds when you were a child that

11:28

he doesn't need to give directions. And

11:30

you are the extension of it. You're

11:34

part of the congratulatory course? Well,

11:38

I think I'm really looking to help and

11:40

support you. I've

11:52

always been interested in the alternative

11:54

resume that people bring to work,

11:56

not just where they work and

11:58

what positions that they've had. but

12:00

their alternative resume as in their

12:02

relational history. And

12:05

Nina has just given us such

12:07

a beautiful example of how

12:10

her professional trajectory

12:12

intersects with her

12:14

relational history. She

12:16

actually has it clear for her why

12:18

she reacts to certain things, what

12:21

gives her the drive, what is

12:23

it about the recognition that she's

12:25

aspiring to. And I'm listening

12:28

to her and now I'm looking to Kay

12:30

and I'm thinking, and how does Kay fit

12:32

into this? And

12:36

your role is you're not

12:38

necessarily congratulating, but you are

12:40

a harmonizer. You

12:44

are the person that doesn't give her grief

12:46

for it. A,

12:49

you're massively understanding,

12:52

you know your partner. Yeah,

12:54

she taught me how to be understanding.

12:56

Yes. She was very good. That is

12:58

true, but I also know that even

13:00

in work, you

13:03

are the person who makes sure to get

13:05

along with everyone. You

13:07

are a harmonizer. And

13:12

that she didn't teach

13:14

you. Now, you

13:17

know, what is interesting is you've mentioned

13:19

her father three times and I know

13:21

none about your own janitori, but

13:23

they must be somewhere present in this conversation

13:26

too. If at all, right? So

13:30

you are a harmonizer. You

13:32

certainly the last thing you want to do is stand in

13:34

the way of someone. You'll

13:37

make it happen. You'll adapt,

13:39

you'll figure it out. And

13:42

hopefully you'll get a thank you at the end too. And

13:46

both of you are looking for certain thank

13:49

yous or ahas, but with

13:51

a different trajectory,

13:54

you know? So give

13:56

me a tiny bit of background. Yes,

14:00

you're right. I'm a

14:03

harmonizer because I feel

14:05

discomfort when there's conflict, when

14:09

people around me don't get

14:11

along. I'm very

14:13

much a people's person. I

14:16

really enjoy working with people

14:19

in teams. I

14:21

grew up in a very solid

14:24

family, father, mother,

14:26

brother. We traveled

14:28

quite a lot because of

14:30

my father's work. My mother

14:32

followed along. So she

14:35

had a career when we were

14:37

back in Italy, but when we were

14:40

abroad, she was the wife of. But

14:43

she elevated her role. She

14:46

really gave the best of

14:48

it. So her role entailed more

14:51

or less optionally socially than

14:53

dinner, fundraisers. And

14:56

she was very good at it and

14:59

always had a way to do it seamlessly.

15:02

And he recognized it? Always. He

15:05

was very grateful, always recognized.

15:07

So very solid couple, not

15:10

so good, neither of

15:12

them in expressing or

15:15

recognizing negative emotions in

15:17

general, in life. Everything was more on the

15:19

positive side. The glass

15:21

was often half full. One

15:24

of the consequences is that I am, I

15:26

think I discovered a

15:29

certain fear of giving

15:31

space to my negative emotions, because I

15:33

fear that they're never going to go away. So

15:36

I have a hard time connecting with them.

15:39

I very often, I

15:41

always had a very hard time sharing

15:44

my sorrows, even with

15:46

friends, because I

15:49

always had a, not

15:51

only I am going through a hard

15:53

time, I cannot listen

15:57

to wrong advice, it

15:59

would be to Get some. My

16:01

nerves are you don't like incompetence

16:03

either Exactly like that. So if

16:05

I am of thing that which

16:07

is already a sewage effort and

16:09

then I hear. Wrong. Advice

16:11

from friends or or from her is

16:14

so much to bear and of oh

16:16

I was. I

16:18

think I learned from my parents to

16:20

take care of my negative emotions by

16:23

myself. I have a very hard time

16:25

relying on other people. I had a

16:27

hard time believing that the in our

16:29

really. Was. Able to support

16:31

me the show strong enough to carry

16:33

me to carry my sorrows as well.

16:35

So I have a. Let's.

16:39

Focus on the most threesome sorrows

16:41

the were. There were three in

16:43

particular. In and they were

16:45

brought up by some them it's. The

16:48

first one was. We

16:50

were trying to have a baby in

16:52

the process was not coming along and

16:54

we had been waiting for several years

16:56

and we didn't know whether he would

16:58

ever gonna have fun and a cell

17:00

barista. Am I

17:02

so stuck in the city? Because.

17:06

It's. A city I learned to like

17:08

that. It's not a city where I

17:10

thrive. Whereas

17:12

is probably a city where nina

17:14

thrive so. But we were stuck

17:17

here because of the baby process as well.

17:19

We we had to stay in the city.

17:21

So that I.

17:24

Had been trying for a long time

17:26

to change job and things were not

17:28

moving so. Yes than other. Aspect.

17:30

Of my life for us and stock. And

17:33

that sue civil My mother

17:35

started developing dementia. And

17:38

assists. He needs to

17:40

do with my father and. I.

17:44

Know that my presence next to

17:46

them would make a suits the

17:48

friends. And I

17:50

look forward to that moment. At

17:52

some point in our lives, say

17:55

was I was completely completely stuck

17:57

on this aspect. Can.

17:59

I. Go back A set. We

18:01

started some. I'm a harmonize

18:04

or which led us to. I've

18:06

always struggled with what you are

18:08

decide to negative emotions. Which could

18:10

include sorrow. Sadness Greece

18:13

An. Anger. Because

18:16

there was no tolerance for it

18:19

in my family, Because the focus

18:21

was on competence. And

18:23

because they couldn't they couldn't deal with

18:26

it is not the content of the

18:28

advice. Incompetent advice is not

18:30

the content of Did face. it's

18:32

the emotional receptivity of the people

18:34

you're talking to. And

18:37

you learned. That. They

18:39

were know what to do with it. And.

18:42

That they would be overwhelmed. And

18:44

now you think you would be overwhelmed? So

18:48

it's less about bad advice. You butcher's

18:50

the word competence but it's a different

18:52

sorry I'm hearing from you and some

18:55

nice I hear it's accurately that. For

18:58

whatever reason, In. Your

19:01

family. You were

19:03

encouraged. To

19:05

not bring. Feelings.

19:08

That would make other people anxious.

19:12

Helpless. An

19:14

able to just create a

19:16

container. Without. Having to do much

19:18

of anything. And

19:21

so you learned. A.

19:23

Lot to go to anybody but

19:26

also you develop and inner sphere

19:28

that windy feelings emerged. There's no

19:30

limit to them. Because. There

19:32

is no container, not internally

19:34

and not. Would. You parents? yes.

19:37

And then you take this to work because

19:39

we take that emotional history to work and

19:41

we thought it even into a skill. That.

19:46

Part of that may be. Connected

19:49

also with how long it

19:51

takes you to then upgrade

19:54

your. Positions. Because.

19:57

Nobody even knows. That

20:00

you're not happy at work, Or that

20:02

you'd like something else. Maybe

20:05

I want something different? I'm capable of

20:07

more. You know? Oh but

20:09

it looked like you were so please

20:11

and can be. I can imagine people

20:13

have no idea. What?

20:16

You really think because you've

20:18

organized she says around with

20:20

distinct. Where. Does it

20:22

land on you how the other he receive

20:24

this. Well.

20:27

This this. A doing this

20:29

idea that I. Do

20:31

Not. Bring.

20:35

Negative emotions.

20:37

I. Work. I'm and it's

20:40

it's true. One

20:42

of them his. Lack.

20:45

Of control over my

20:47

stress, Lack of control

20:49

over me feeling overwhelmed.

20:52

Because. If I lose control over

20:54

my stress, my emotions. There.

20:57

Was fear? Then I'm not

20:59

going to be safe then.

21:02

I'm. Gonna be seen as incompetent.

21:06

Whereas. If I keep

21:08

everything under control. I'm

21:10

gonna be. says.

21:12

And I'm going to be

21:14

able to control what happens

21:16

in the process And and

21:19

everything else is. And thing

21:21

is that my mother especially

21:23

has always been. A. Problem

21:25

solver have all kinds. Of

21:28

practical and most of the was always

21:30

a solution and I. Absorb

21:33

the skill. Magnificently

21:35

fab five. Then we're

21:37

now with sharing her.

21:40

Issues with me. My first reaction was oh

21:42

with a we're going to solve this We're

21:44

going to solve this feeling We're going to

21:46

solve this grief at to the point where

21:48

she was. Able to tell me. I

21:50

don't need you to solve this problem and

21:52

into to listen. And

21:55

I suggest something. Sometimes.

21:59

Problems so. How.

22:06

Can see themselves as

22:08

competent advice. Givers. Are

22:11

also. People. Who actually

22:14

can't tolerate problems? They

22:17

can't tolerate distress and the

22:20

anxiety that problems in this

22:22

it and so. They

22:24

present themselves as problem solvers.

22:27

But in fact there are also

22:29

insists people. Who. Can't tolerate

22:31

a problem with that doesn't necessarily have

22:34

an immediate solution, which is what Nina

22:36

was sentenced. Then I just need to

22:38

tell you how I feel about something

22:41

and you know how. And.

22:43

Because when you solve the problem is

22:45

shut it down. You'd. Basically are

22:47

trying to solve the problem for make

22:49

it go away because you cannot tolerate

22:51

whatever she's going to which is probably

22:53

what happened between you and Mom is

22:55

Weldon. Yes, Yes,

22:58

So. Whenever she says the problem she

23:00

basically was act of it at a at a

23:03

fixed. The. Get

23:05

this and make event. Like

23:07

that over. Likes

23:10

with her. That. Is

23:12

no problem. So. That

23:16

is management of. Anxiety.

23:19

That is overwhelmed. That is the

23:21

fear of the loss of control.

23:24

near as a lack of control

23:26

your that manifests itself as a

23:29

pseudo. Problem. Solving

23:31

skills. The

23:37

reef frame here is that

23:39

what his always been interpreted

23:41

as. Problem

23:43

solving is actually see

23:45

now as problem avoidance.

23:49

It's not about the specific issue that

23:51

needs solution, it's about making the problem

23:53

go away. Wish get away as. fast

23:55

as possible because he brings up

23:57

a lot of tension pressure and

24:01

So we really are talking about management

24:03

of discomfort that happens to

24:05

also sometimes solve a problem. And

24:08

as we continue this exploration and she

24:11

keeps going, yes, yes, yes, with her head,

24:13

you're on track, this is it. It

24:15

also becomes clear that what happened

24:18

in the pandemic when the problems

24:20

there are what Ron Heifetz, the

24:22

psychiatrist at Harvard, calls adaptive

24:25

problems, problems that don't

24:27

have an immediate solution. We

24:37

have to take a brief break. Stay

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or domain. And

27:09

what made the pandemic so

27:11

challenging is that the three problems,

27:15

challenges, developmental crises

27:17

that you were experiencing,

27:20

did not have instant

27:24

solutions. Being stuck

27:26

at home together, being stuck in the

27:28

city without being able to leave it,

27:31

dealing with struggles around fertility

27:34

and adoption, being stuck

27:36

in the job that wasn't changing. Those

27:39

were problems, developmental

27:41

arrests that didn't have

27:44

these quick fixes. Your

27:46

definition of problem solving is quick

27:48

fixes. And

27:52

you're good at the quick fixes, and

27:54

they are very useful at work, no

27:56

doubt, but there are situations like these

27:58

kinds of developmental crises. that

28:00

don't have a quick fix. And

28:03

those situations I described that I

28:05

was living through during the pandemic,

28:09

there was so little control I had

28:11

on them. Well, one

28:13

thing it implied is

28:15

that you can't pick the fixer of it

28:17

all alone. Yeah, pity, but...

28:20

Yes, yes, yes, it's a demotion. I

28:22

get it. The

28:24

kind of fixer you are probably believes I can

28:26

do it myself. Yeah, it's hard for me

28:28

to say I need help. It's

28:30

like there's... it's a word that doesn't

28:32

really come out naturally, but I know

28:35

I need help or

28:37

I can benefit from help. There

28:41

is a little... there's something

28:43

within me that judges

28:45

it and

28:47

judges dependency. I have

28:49

a thing with people being

28:52

dependent. And yet

28:54

you're watching your mom, where

28:57

this woman who was

29:00

all capable needs help. You

29:03

get to see her from a much more vulnerable

29:05

place. Yes, completely. So

29:08

has it helped you to redefine the

29:10

meaning of words like I need help

29:13

or I don't always have a quick fix, or

29:16

life sometimes puts things in front

29:18

of you that are overwhelming. And

29:22

you can learn to deal with them, but

29:24

they are by nature overwhelming rather

29:27

than it's a personal failure if

29:29

they overwhelm me. It's

29:31

a personal failure if I need help,

29:34

if I depend. I'm

29:37

working on it, but

29:40

I'm not there yet. I can see how I'm not

29:42

there yet. But

29:44

enough about me. Let's talk about

29:46

you. I'm very happy

29:48

for all this to be all about you.

29:52

You know why I did what I just did? Because

29:55

I also understood from

29:58

the intake interview. So

30:00

that for a long time, that

30:02

is not what happens between the two of

30:04

you. That

30:07

Nina can take front stage easily

30:11

and that works, that's

30:13

part of the deal. She

30:16

can complain, she can be

30:18

embattled at work and

30:21

she has the promotions and she does

30:23

the upgrades and she makes you move

30:25

countries and she and you and she

30:27

and you. And I decided that

30:29

is enough. Well

30:31

it's lop-sided. Enough is what you need

30:33

to say. For

30:36

me it's just like, we're going to

30:38

rebalance this for a moment. What will

30:41

it look like if actually for an

30:43

hour you are on the

30:45

front stage and she listens and

30:47

I'm watching her and she's listening attentively

30:50

and some of the things are

30:52

surprising and some of the things

30:54

are just calming

30:57

and she's

30:59

learning what it's like

31:02

to give space. Because when she says to

31:04

you, tell me if you need something, it's

31:07

predicated on the notion that she knows that

31:09

you want. And

31:14

it's definitely a dynamic, it's a dynamic we've

31:17

been talking about, this

31:19

dynamic where I decided to

31:21

follow her in New York at a

31:23

time where I was very happy,

31:26

where I was both in terms

31:28

of country, work, friends, environment. But

31:31

I also, the moment I accepted

31:33

to follow her I knew I

31:35

wanted to own

31:38

the decision because I didn't want to find

31:40

myself ten years later saying, but I

31:43

did this for you and I just avoid

31:45

from the beginning any tension. But

31:49

I didn't want her to feel

31:51

it was her fault. But

31:53

you're looking at it in a blame structure.

31:56

Whereas what is also happening is

31:58

that until now... one

32:01

person's career has

32:03

been defined as very important. And

32:07

that same person's career that is defined as

32:09

important is the person who says, I'm ambitious.

32:14

And this is the dynamic between the

32:17

achiever and the pleaser. And

32:20

so it's not just about

32:22

coming to New York. It's that the

32:24

coming to New York is a reinforcement

32:27

of the notion of one person's

32:29

career has been more

32:31

central. And

32:34

that is also the story that you grew

32:36

up with. That your dad's

32:38

career took the family all over the

32:40

world and your

32:42

mother made it her own decision.

32:46

Try to not be upset

32:49

about it. Or a victim. That is the

32:51

better word, yes. Or a victim about it.

32:54

How do I change that? I don't know

32:56

if it's an I. It's

33:00

a we or it's a

33:02

you. No. I. So

33:07

where it becomes a matter

33:09

of we instead of I is

33:11

that if you take more of a center stage

33:13

or your career take more of a center stage,

33:16

maybe it's what I need as well. It

33:20

will calm down a little bit my energy.

33:23

Particularly now with the child, I mean, we

33:25

have no choice. I

33:28

mean. But you

33:30

have two different conversations that I

33:32

hear primarily about work, right? One

33:35

is the doing

33:37

more and the other

33:39

one, they're not different, but I

33:41

want just to explore how

33:43

they actually connect. One is the doing more and

33:45

the other one is, I

33:48

seem to always be at loggerheads

33:50

with my boss, which

33:53

then makes me want to go and do something more.

33:56

But the

33:58

thing I wanted to ask. Is it each

34:01

time something similar? What you

34:03

end up experiencing in

34:05

the relationship with your bosses? Does it come

34:07

down to the same thing every time? Different

34:10

color, different garb, same theme? Yeah

34:18

What is in common in all these situations

34:20

that I feel

34:22

like I've never grown up in

34:24

a way when I was a

34:27

child, I felt

34:29

I had a lot of responsibilities, not

34:31

practical stuff. I was a very privileged

34:33

child that goes to school and plays

34:35

and that's it. But there

34:37

was pressure for me to be good in

34:39

school and none of that. And

34:41

it was assumed as the

34:44

normal. But

34:46

at the same time I was a child. I

34:48

wasn't completely independent. And

34:51

this seems exactly the same thing

34:53

that is happening in all the

34:55

jobs that I've been having. It

34:57

doesn't matter how high up I

34:59

get into the hierarchy of

35:02

the organization. I

35:06

feel I'm treated like that. Like a

35:08

child? Yeah, with a lot

35:10

of responsibilities. But

35:12

still contrast that you can do it

35:14

alone. So

35:18

this is somehow beyond

35:20

the personality of my

35:22

boss. The

35:26

combination of responsibility with no... I

35:29

would call it power, but

35:31

it's not really power. There is always someone

35:33

controlling me. It's like, sure

35:35

you can go out until 11, but

35:37

I don't give you the keys. You

35:40

know, sure, you can come back whenever and ring me

35:42

so that I know when you come back. It's

35:46

a little bit the same. I'm

35:49

given more and more work, more and

35:51

more portfolio. Oh my God, Nina, you're excellent. You can do

35:53

this. Sure. But

35:58

then there is always. things

36:00

that are sad and situations

36:03

that keep on happening that bring

36:06

me back to that moment.

36:08

That moment. That moment

36:10

where I was a child and everybody

36:13

was out playing. I

36:15

was not because I had

36:18

to study. And

36:20

not only I was losing the pleasure

36:23

of playing, but

36:25

on top of it, it was just

36:28

given for granted that that

36:30

was what was supposed to happen. And

36:34

still the bar was raised

36:36

higher and a little bit more. It's

36:40

so difficult to explain that,

36:42

but in work

36:44

is the same thing. And

36:48

I don't necessarily think that being without a

36:50

boss would solve it. Because

36:52

then you think, okay, work without a boss. I'm

36:58

afraid that I couldn't. I

37:00

would be dominated

37:03

by fear. I

37:05

mean, I don't know. That's

37:08

why I'm stuck. It's

37:15

fascinating because it's

37:17

exactly the same thing, but

37:20

on a different angle. You

37:25

both see help as control and it gets

37:27

a bit mixed up in the

37:29

workplace. I

37:32

don't want to be controlled, but I'm so

37:34

used to being in reaction to someone who

37:36

I think is limiting me and constraining me

37:38

that it's become a part of my structure.

37:42

If I don't have it, I feel like I'm

37:44

alone at sea. There's no boundaries. Whereas the authority

37:46

offers me a boundary. But if I'm all alone

37:48

and I have to say to myself, I can

37:50

do it, how do I know? And

37:54

the flip side of it, which is that

37:56

help is a loss of control or a

37:59

lack of control. which is a terrible definition

38:01

of the word, but we get it. We

38:03

know how we got there. You're

38:06

not alone with that distortion. But

38:09

you know, what I still struggle about is,

38:12

is that while I fully recognize the

38:15

thing that I would be lost without

38:17

authority, I mean. I

38:20

don't wanna do it all alone. I've done

38:22

it all alone all my life. I

38:25

would love some help, but help. I've

38:28

both done it all alone, much

38:30

of your life. Not all everything,

38:33

but in this domain, you both

38:35

have been alone in ways that

38:37

have been painful, difficult,

38:39

isolating, challenging. Do

38:43

you have mentors? Have

38:46

you ever had a mentor? Both

38:52

women are so insightful

38:56

and have such a good

38:58

sense of their own relational

39:00

self-awareness. I don't need

39:02

to do therapy here. This

39:04

is a coaching session. What

39:07

I'm clear about is that this

39:09

idea that you want autonomy, but

39:11

you want belonging. And

39:13

if you have belonging, that may

39:15

imply hierarchy, and you are fighting

39:17

the hierarchy because the hierarchy actually

39:19

helps you know who you are

39:21

because it allows you to say,

39:23

I'm not this. Whereas

39:26

if you are alone, then you have to

39:28

be able to speak this to yourself as

39:30

if she really gets it very clearly why

39:32

she would not be her own boss. So

39:34

if she doesn't want to be her own boss, and

39:36

she doesn't wanna have a boss in the

39:39

traditional sense of the word, then

39:41

we also need to explore other ways

39:43

for her to experience support,

39:46

structure, belonging, and autonomy. And

39:51

I think one way to address this

39:53

is through the exploration of

39:55

a mentor. Well,

40:02

we have an official mentoring program

40:05

in our office, so we had to pick

40:07

a colleague. The

40:10

reason I chose this colleague is

40:12

because he's very calm. I

40:15

say that he's very British, which is probably not

40:17

a correct thing to say. He's very calm. He

40:20

thinks before talking. He

40:24

never bursts into rage or

40:26

nothing like that. And so I

40:28

appreciate those in him. But

40:32

if I have to be really honest

40:34

about why I haven't started meeting with

40:36

him, it's that I didn't want just

40:38

another piece of advice. I

40:41

wanted someone to

40:43

walk with, you know? Or

40:47

better, I wanted a piece of advice that

40:49

was coming from a deep understanding. And

40:53

I was afraid not to find it. And

40:55

so just for the fear of it, I

40:58

just said, OK, we'll do it when I

41:00

have time, which is probably an

41:02

excuse. And if

41:04

you went back in light

41:07

of this conversation and

41:09

did it differently, what

41:12

would you do? Well,

41:15

I would...

41:17

Can you be a stand-in for Mentor?

41:19

Of course. Go

41:22

ahead. So

41:27

I'm afraid in entering the mentorship

41:30

that you

41:33

will be another person that I report to on

41:36

my progress. We establish

41:38

goals. And then every

41:40

six weeks, you check how far I've

41:43

been. I

41:45

don't need a mentor that checks how

41:47

much additional training I do, how much

41:50

I develop my skills. That's

41:52

not what I need. What

41:57

I need from a mentor is

41:59

the ability for... someone to meet me where I

42:01

am without asking

42:04

me to go to a

42:06

better place without fixing

42:08

it. Because

42:14

you know I'm hard enough on

42:16

myself what I have

42:18

more of a hard time off and then is

42:21

feeling that it was okay for the rest of the

42:23

world if I was stuck for a little. Nobody

42:26

would judge me for being stuck. Maybe

42:30

someone would

42:32

be even understanding. So

42:36

that's what I need from a mentor. What

42:42

you just asked from the mentor is what you

42:44

would want to ask from your father. So

42:54

now you had a conversation with your dad. Now

42:57

we're gonna have a conversation with your mentor. Where

43:03

did you choose this person? What

43:05

kind of that person what you don't want? If

43:09

you don't want it's what you told you dad

43:11

because that's what you've had. Yeah. John,

43:14

Janet. Janet

43:16

sounds perfect. Yeah. So,

43:20

Janet. Hello. Hello.

43:24

How are you? Doing great. So

43:28

why I chose you as a mentor

43:31

what I see in you is that

43:34

you have a very considerate

43:37

behavior in

43:40

in different circumstances. You

43:43

get the line between a

43:46

work environment and

43:50

life outside. And

43:54

you what I appreciate the most in

43:56

you is that whenever

43:59

someone says something

44:01

inappropriate, you

44:03

don't stay silent and participate in

44:06

the joke. You

44:08

just, in your very British

44:10

way of saying, you just

44:12

comment that that was inappropriate. So

44:16

for me it's integrity, not,

44:18

you know, just follow the

44:20

leaders, whatever they say, but you

44:22

remain true to who you are.

44:27

And I think we have that in common, that

44:30

you have a much better way of expressing it. So

44:38

what I would love us to work on

44:41

is communication,

44:45

without fair

44:48

communication meaning compromising,

44:51

because that's what I've seen. Yeah,

44:55

that's what I've said. How is that? It's

45:00

good. It creates like

45:02

a bond with the other person.

45:05

It's without having to bring home my

45:07

story with it. The

45:09

past is not the past when

45:12

it's right here in the present. Mmm.

45:21

I purposefully don't want this to

45:23

be a therapy session, but

45:26

a coaching session, because in

45:28

effect both of these women have

45:30

done a lot of therapeutic

45:32

work, they have done a lot of

45:35

work on their families, and they have

45:37

actually been able to

45:39

translate their coping

45:41

strategies from home

45:43

to work in very effective

45:46

ways, but they've reached

45:48

a ceiling. And there

45:51

is a way in which at this

45:53

moment certain stories no longer serve and

45:55

certain adaptive

45:57

mechanisms are no longer at the end.

46:02

And one of the places that this

46:04

becomes very clear is when I ask

46:06

her what she would want to

46:09

say to her mentor and it becomes clear

46:11

that she's not talking to the mentor, but

46:13

she's talking to her dad. And

46:15

this lends us the lens through

46:18

which we're going to really make

46:20

the separation between a

46:23

mentor and a parent in

46:25

a way that will allow her

46:27

to feel that she can communicate

46:30

at work without the fear of

46:32

losing it, that she can stand

46:34

up and speak up and experience

46:36

her integrity without being afraid that

46:38

she's going to be punished for

46:40

it. It's those

46:42

translations that now become really

46:45

essential for her to continue

46:47

her beautiful ascendance in her

46:50

career. We

46:56

are in the midst of our session and

47:00

there is still so much to talk

47:02

about. We need to take a brief break,

47:05

so stay with us. Support

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49:23

But the next thing is that you literally are

49:25

going to say this is an opportunity for me.

49:29

And by next week you will have spoken with this

49:31

person. And then you

49:33

bring in certain situations. Yeah. What

49:36

would you say? How would you approach

49:38

it? How, you know, it

49:40

gets to me. I personalize it. But

49:42

I have here put down, I reacted

49:45

the whole history of put downs and

49:47

all the paradynamics and all the gender

49:49

relations and all the cultural biases and

49:51

all the racist issues. Everything is right

49:53

there so that I basically have a

49:55

bottleneck. Yeah. Do you

49:57

get queer bias too? What

49:59

do you do? Can you explain to us?

50:02

Is queerness another source? A source

50:04

of prejudice. Prejudice in the office.

50:10

Not openly. I

50:13

received some inappropriate comments after

50:16

I came back from maternity leave. But

50:18

not about, maybe I'm wrong,

50:20

but not about queerness. There was more of

50:22

a gender. You

50:25

never know. Whether it's because

50:28

I'm a mother and

50:30

a lesbian. Could be one of the two

50:32

or both. Can you describe

50:34

the situation, Sona? Sure.

50:38

So when I went on

50:41

adoption leave for a period

50:44

of four months. The full support

50:46

of your direct? Direct supervisor, yeah. Full

50:49

support of my direct supervisor. And all the office was

50:51

very congratulate about it. So I felt very good about

50:53

it. It was

50:55

something we always wanted. The

50:58

moment I came back, the

51:01

head of my office called

51:04

me in his

51:06

office and asked

51:09

me how his parents

51:12

were. And there was

51:14

a suspicion that he used the word parent and

51:16

not mother in a deliberate way. But

51:18

this is just a suspicion. Then

51:22

he went on to say that my absence

51:24

has created a lot of trouble to the office.

51:27

And I just said, you know, sorry, but this

51:29

thing's happened. You

51:31

could also imagine saying, I'm

51:34

glad to know I have such an important

51:36

role. Thank you. Yeah.

51:42

And then he went on with saying, and

51:44

I expected you to be at that meeting

51:46

a couple of weeks ago. And

51:49

then I felt, well, I was on

51:51

maternity leave. And

51:53

when he asked, well, nobody

51:55

alerted you, that

51:58

you were expected to be there. I said

52:01

no because it was

52:03

true and

52:05

so that at

52:08

least I felt safe that it was not

52:10

my responsibility. So in that moment I said

52:12

thank you that nobody told me and then

52:17

it kept off the conversation. Because they knew not to.

52:19

Because they knew where you were. Yeah and

52:21

they decided, you know, other colleagues decided it

52:24

was not my place to be thankfully

52:29

and then said well now you have a lot of work to do,

52:31

he said. Go, go.

52:35

And it's a bit difficult to

52:37

express the tone, the

52:40

posture, the old. It

52:43

was very painful for you. It was

52:45

very painful. It was very, very painful.

52:47

I was shaking, literally. And

52:49

then went to my immediate supervisor and

52:53

talked to her about it and she was like equally

52:56

shocked but we had the sort

52:58

of the same emotional reaction. Which

53:04

was like this is so inappropriate,

53:06

things like this cannot happen. You

53:08

know, a venting

53:10

type of things which is very

53:12

natural and I

53:14

loved for her to be

53:17

so supportive because that's what I needed. I mean

53:19

the hug essentially. But

53:22

then it's one of these unsolved trials,

53:24

you know, because the thing lingered. It's

53:28

very hard when you don't feel safe. But

53:33

at the same time once I was in

53:35

a meeting and our child was with

53:37

me because it was fake and

53:40

I was home with him and it was very

53:42

nice with him. You

53:47

confirmed for me that it is the fear we need

53:49

to talk about. You

53:51

know, when you say it's not a safe

53:53

place, you have to change your language because

53:56

the language shapes the experience. This

53:59

place is safe. He,

54:03

I'm not sure about, or

54:06

I am sure about, whichever way you decide where

54:08

it plays to you land. But

54:10

he evokes in me all

54:13

the fears I had for all the years, and

54:15

he becomes the representative of the thing I feared

54:17

always. And here I had it. That's

54:20

why him. Because

54:22

he lands on the perfect

54:24

Darnak. If

54:27

you live with that preexisting experience,

54:31

then that response

54:33

has an echo chamber. It

54:36

can't just be absorbed. But

54:40

the system, a safe place, is

54:43

a place where somebody already spoke with

54:45

him. Maybe not

54:47

only about you for that matter. And

54:51

you see the result of that, by

54:55

the way that he's behaving. He

54:58

has changed behaviorally. And

55:01

part of you says, I don't necessarily

55:03

need to change his mind. But you

55:05

can always say to him, it's very

55:07

nice to see you playful with my

55:09

little boy. Do

55:13

you know if he has kids? Yeah. Okay.

55:16

So, you know, ally with him. Assert

55:19

yourself as the mother that you are. Engage

55:25

him as the father that he is. As

55:28

he said, parenthood. Maybe

55:32

parenthood was a way for him to, you

55:34

know, who knows? You don't know if it

55:36

was a way to not recognize your motherhood

55:38

or a way to actually be trying to

55:40

be neutral about it and inclusive. God, these

55:42

days. So the only way you know is

55:45

by having the next conversation, by context. We

55:48

may be right and we may be completely

55:50

off. But we live in fear. And

55:54

that's why you have a supervisor. That's

55:56

why you have other people with whom you bring this up.

56:00

don't have to do it alone. It's an

56:02

empowering vision because

56:04

it doesn't feel the little one against

56:07

the monster. Maybe

56:10

when I got into the office

56:12

I was the little one because

56:14

the moment the monster spoke I

56:16

immediately trained. You just came back

56:19

from maternity leave. You're in a

56:21

very new stage of

56:23

life, more vulnerable, and

56:25

instead of welcoming you and hugging you and

56:28

saying, hello, you're great to have you back,

56:30

he kind of scolds you for having been

56:32

away. And if

56:34

you had more distance, you'd say,

56:37

oh, that's such a nice thing to hear instead

56:41

of how glad you missed me. I

56:47

think it's really important to not collapse

56:50

an incident that triggers

56:53

you as

56:55

a sign of an entire

56:58

environment. And that is what

57:00

fear does. It says

57:02

the lion's everywhere. But

57:06

in fact, you're in a beautiful

57:08

park and

57:11

he's not even a lion. I

57:17

was very glad of what came

57:19

up at the end when we talked about

57:21

what is the lens of the mother that

57:23

goes to work. But

57:25

equally important was introducing

57:28

the idea that when something

57:30

lands wrong, go

57:33

and have another conversation. Check it

57:35

out. Bring in the

57:38

other people. Widen the lens. Look

57:40

at the context. That will

57:42

help you understand the

57:44

meaning of what actually happened. And

57:48

that message was a very important one

57:50

for me to give to

57:52

them just as we were ending the session. What

58:00

is important for me is to

58:03

remain true to who I am and

58:06

start from there rather than trying

58:08

to please him and see whether

58:10

maybe if I say this this way, he

58:13

will react in a more positive way. That's

58:15

the thing you learn to do at home.

58:19

What I learned to do at home, it was

58:21

not to make my father angry. Yes. What

58:24

you're saying is the most important thing

58:27

that this relationship with this

58:29

boss is inviting me

58:31

to do is to

58:33

break a pattern in which

58:35

I try to endear myself

58:38

to someone who is more

58:41

critical and less

58:43

appreciative or less complementary

58:45

and to prove to them that I can,

58:47

that I am and in the

58:49

process as they like me more,

58:52

I like myself less. Because

58:54

I lost myself at a certain point. It's

58:57

never the same thing that can make someone

58:59

happy. You try

59:01

different ways and the focus is always the

59:03

other person. Because

59:05

what happens is that you go from the love me, love

59:08

me, love me to the fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

59:11

That's why you change jobs all the time. Not

59:14

only and you get better jobs. At

59:17

some point you've got enough of the love me and then

59:19

it becomes fuck you. And now

59:21

you start to turn the whole thing into a hostile

59:24

environment. But some of it

59:26

is you doing. Yeah. I

59:28

do. Okay. How are we doing? We're

59:31

coming kind of close to the

59:33

end. But how is this? I'm

59:37

happy to dig a little

59:40

bit deeper to understand what

59:42

we were bringing into work from our

59:44

own personal life that was making

59:47

the environment respond to us in that way.

59:50

You got it. You get

59:54

the chair and we'll bring you home. You

59:56

don't need me. What

1:00:05

is a complicated environment where

1:00:07

so many things happen inside

1:00:10

us, between us and others,

1:00:12

systemically, on a global level?

1:00:15

And these two people are doing

1:00:17

very well in the workplace. And

1:00:20

yet, we still get hijacked on

1:00:22

occasion. And those are

1:00:24

the moments where we need to

1:00:26

be able to cipher what is the

1:00:28

past, what is the present, how can

1:00:31

we react differently in the moment, and

1:00:34

how can we call upon the

1:00:36

forces within the work environment

1:00:38

that can help us make

1:00:40

this complicated place a little

1:00:43

bit less complicated. Esther

1:00:51

Perel is a therapist, bestselling author,

1:00:53

speaker, and host of the podcasts,

1:00:55

Where Should We Begin and How's

1:00:57

Work. To apply with

1:00:59

a colleague or partner to do a session for the

1:01:01

podcast, or to follow

1:01:03

along with each episode's show notes, go

1:01:07

to howswork.esnerpearl.com.

1:01:11

How's Work is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're

1:01:14

part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in

1:01:16

partnership with New York Magazine and the CUT. Our

1:01:19

production staff includes Eric Neuzin,

1:01:21

Eva Walshover, Destry Sibley, Sabrina

1:01:24

Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen

1:01:26

Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original

1:01:30

music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

1:01:33

And the executive producers of How's Work

1:01:36

are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd

1:01:39

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton,

1:01:41

Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

1:01:44

Jack Thall. Hi,

1:01:49

I'm Lala Arakogli, host of Women

1:01:51

Who Travel. That

1:01:53

story from our guests and listeners is

1:01:55

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