0:00

This is a Glassbox Media

0:02

Podcast. Hey,

0:07

this is Scott. Hang around after

0:09

today's episode for a big announcement about

0:11

the podcast. Okay, on with

0:14

the show. There

0:20

are some people whose dream is to

0:22

live on a boat and just spend

0:24

their life sailing around the world. In

0:29

fact, there's a company called Villa V that's

0:31

hoping a lot of people want to do

0:33

that. They have a cruise

0:35

ship that holds 924 passengers,

0:39

and they're offering a never-ending cruise

0:41

that goes around the world every

0:43

three and a half years. You

0:46

can actually buy one of the cabins, starting for

0:48

as little as $100,000, and you own that cabin.

0:53

Kind of like a floating

0:55

timeshare, I guess. But

0:57

you also have monthly maintenance fees. That's about

1:00

$3,500 a month. So

1:03

far, more than 30 people have put down a deposit

1:06

to purchase a cabin. I've

1:09

gone on a few cruises, and it can be a great

1:11

way to vacation. But I don't

1:14

think I'd want to spend years living on a cruise ship. Like

1:18

most things, spending time at sea is

1:20

wonderful, but in moderation. Today

1:25

you'll hear from my guest, Suzanne. When

1:28

she was just seven years old, she

1:31

and her family got on a large sailboat

1:33

and sailed away from their home in England.

1:38

What she didn't expect was to spend the

1:40

rest of her childhood on that boat. Suzanne

1:44

told me about growing up on the boat, the

1:46

good and the bad, and how

1:48

she finally escaped. Real

1:54

people in unreal situations.

2:00

girl hanging by her broken leg

2:02

from the telephone wire. And I

2:04

called 911 and said, I

2:07

found a baby. I turned around. I

2:09

see a gun pointed at me close enough I

2:11

could touch it. She would hold her head on

2:13

the water all the time. He levels the gun,

2:15

pulls the trigger, and I

2:18

go down. Her eyes were full of

2:20

tears. She didn't want to leave

2:22

us. My hair catches on fire. I

2:24

swear to God, this image is burning my head for the rest of

2:27

my life. I'm

2:30

Scott Johnson, and this is

2:32

What Was That Like. Before

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we get into today's story, you're about to

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now, a quick word from our sponsors, followed

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Find Reese's now at a store near you. As

3:58

a six-year-old child. would you

4:00

say you were pretty happy? Yeah,

4:03

I would. We were living in

4:05

a house in the center, you know, near the

4:08

center of England. I was going to school. I

4:10

had a dog, Rusty, that I adored. I had

4:13

a best friend called Sarah. I

4:16

was enjoying school. That was fun. I've been

4:18

at school for a couple of

4:20

years by that point. Had a younger brother

4:22

living in a house in a

4:25

small town in the UK. Everything

4:27

seemed pretty normal. I remember being happy. I

4:29

remember playing in the garden on

4:32

the swing. I remember doing a little bit of

4:34

horse riding, going and staying over at my friend's

4:36

house. All the normal things that you would expect

4:38

that you'd be doing as a six-year-old girl. At

4:41

that time, it was you. You were six.

4:43

Your younger brother, John, he's a year younger

4:45

than you, right? That's right. And your two

4:47

parents. When you were six,

4:50

your dad called a family meeting and makes

4:52

this big announcement. Do you remember that? I

4:54

mean, at six years old, do you have

4:56

the memory of that specific day? I

4:58

do because it was such a momentous moment

5:00

in my life. I remember us all

5:02

sitting around at the kitchen table in

5:05

this house that we were living in in Warwick. I

5:07

remember my father basically announcing that he wanted

5:10

to sail around the world. This

5:12

was before he'd found a boat, but

5:14

he was utterly determined to do it. I had

5:17

no doubt in my mind when he said it

5:19

that we were going to do it. I mean,

5:21

I thought my father could do anything. It

5:24

wasn't a question for discussion. This was something

5:27

that was going to happen. This was a

5:29

big adventure that he decided that we were

5:31

all going to go on together. Yeah.

5:34

When you're that age, the kids don't

5:36

usually really get a vote, right? I

5:38

mean, this is what our family's doing.

5:41

But you said you didn't even have a boat yet. Did

5:44

he know how to sail or how did he expect

5:46

to learn that? So he'd

5:48

done some sailing. He'd done short-distance sailing.

5:50

So he had owned various small boats

5:53

and he'd been to and fro across

5:55

the channel from the UK to France

5:57

and back. He'd been down to the...

6:00

Canary Islands and back

6:02

a few times. So he'd never crossed an

6:04

ocean. He'd never done satellite navigation, but

6:06

he had sailed around the UK.

6:09

So it was not impossible for

6:11

him to come up with

6:13

this idea. And as you say, as a six-year-old

6:15

child, I didn't really dispute it

6:17

in the slightest. This was my father announcing

6:19

a big adventure, and of course I was

6:22

going to go with him. Right,

6:24

right. Yeah, you were definitely going to

6:26

go, but you had some hesitation about

6:28

this plan. Well, it was less

6:30

hesitation about the plan and more

6:32

that I knew I was going

6:35

to leave a lot behind. And

6:37

in particular, the things I knew I

6:39

was going to leave behind amiss were

6:42

my dog that I was very, very

6:44

attached to, Rusty, a water spaniel who

6:46

I never saw again, my friend, Sarah,

6:49

my best friend. I had other friends as

6:51

well, but Sarah was my best friend. My

6:54

dog's house, which I'd only just got for Christmas,

6:57

actually, my father had kind of actually painted it

6:59

crossing the channel. And I was very attached

7:01

to that. Obviously, I was also

7:03

going to leave behind all my other relatives,

7:05

so everything I knew. So

7:07

I remember being in two minds

7:10

about the whole thing because I knew how

7:12

much I was going to leave behind. But

7:14

my father promised me that we will be

7:16

back in three years when I was

7:18

10, and everything will be waiting

7:20

for me. Looking

7:23

back now, do you think your dad really

7:25

intended at that time to be back in

7:27

three years? I do. He

7:29

had the whole voyage plastered

7:31

out. And the whole idea was

7:33

that he was going to follow Captain Cook around

7:35

the world because it was the

7:37

200th anniversary of Captain Cook's third voyage

7:39

around the world. And my

7:42

maiden name is actually Cook, so he

7:44

had this idea that we were going

7:46

to honor Captain Cook by following him

7:48

around the world. I think also, to

7:50

be honest, it was a bit

7:53

of an excuse to raise money for this trip

7:55

because we weren't a wealthy family. So

7:57

there's no way he could have afforded to

7:59

say... around the world without getting

8:01

sponsorship, which he did. But

8:04

as we were following Cook, we

8:06

had, at least this was the intention

8:08

setting out, a pretty prescribed

8:10

route that was going to take us all

8:12

the way around the world and we were going to get

8:15

to Hawaii after about three years and

8:17

then we were going to come straight back home

8:19

through the Panama Canal, back to

8:21

the UK and back to a normal life. It

8:24

sounds exciting to me. I mean, was there

8:26

a small part of you that was a

8:29

little bit excited about this adventure you were

8:31

going on? Oh yeah, no, I was.

8:33

My father, of course, talked the whole thing up.

8:35

This was going to be a massive adventure. We

8:37

were going to see more countries

8:39

in the world than any of our friends

8:42

would see. We were going to have adventures

8:44

along the way. We were going to see

8:46

whales and dolphins. I know my

8:48

mother was very heavily sold on all the wonderful

8:50

seafood she was going to get to eat once

8:52

we hit the South Pacific. We were going to

8:55

see incredible islands. The whole thing was going

8:57

to be a massive adventure and

8:59

I believed all that. That was going to

9:01

be... And of course, I trusted my father

9:03

who I adored as a kind of

9:06

hero that this was going to be this incredible adventure

9:08

and then I was going to come back again. When

9:11

the sailing finally began, you were seven

9:13

years old at that point and

9:16

the boat that you guys got was

9:18

called Wave Walker. Can you describe that

9:20

boat? It was pretty big. It

9:23

was quite big but she was a very unusual

9:25

boat. She was a one-off boat that somebody else

9:27

had built as a bit of a dream boat.

9:29

She looked like an old galleon

9:32

in a way with a kind of raised

9:34

deck at the back, poop deck at the

9:36

back with a smaller mast at the front

9:38

and a bigger mast at the back. She

9:40

was 69 feet long which is

9:42

quite long for a boat. On the

9:44

other hand, six feet at the front

9:46

was the bowsprit almost like a kind of plank

9:48

at the front. There's no

9:50

space down below underneath that and

9:53

she was an incredibly narrow boat. Down

9:56

below, there was nowhere near as much space as

9:59

you might expect. Down below, you had

10:01

a number of bunks, which were kind of two,

10:03

one on top of the other. A

10:07

number of those, you had one table

10:09

that sat about four or five people,

10:12

one kind of galley, kind of kitchen galley.

10:15

One most of the time, we only had one working

10:17

head or toilet, although there was a

10:19

second one, but it almost never works.

10:22

My parents had an aft cabin in the

10:24

back, which had another couple of

10:26

bursts. Down below, there wasn't a lot of

10:29

space. I mean, there was no private space.

10:31

All I ever had was a bunk and obviously

10:34

we had the kind of shared toilet that we

10:36

could use. You had mentioned

10:38

that the planned route was to follow Captain

10:40

Cook's route, but you

10:42

guys sailed around the world in what

10:45

you turned the wrong direction. Why

10:47

is that and what does that mean? Well,

10:50

so Captain Cook on his third voyage

10:52

was going in search of a northwest

10:54

passage around the top of what we

10:56

now know as Canada. And

10:59

in doing so, the way

11:01

in which he wanted to get there from the

11:03

UK was to sail from west

11:06

to east because

11:08

that he felt was the best way to

11:10

get there. Now, most people who sail around

11:12

the world sail from east to west. And

11:15

if you sail from east to west, the

11:17

winds go that direction near the

11:20

equator. So what you do

11:22

is you go all the way around the world

11:24

from east to west. You're sailing fairly near the

11:26

equator. The winds tend to

11:28

be much gentler because you're up

11:30

near the equator. The seas also tend to be much

11:33

better because there's quite a lot of

11:35

land that breaks up the waves. So

11:37

generally, that's the way in which everybody goes.

11:39

They go kind of through the Red Sea,

11:41

through the Mediterranean, you know, kind of around

11:43

the world, around the equator. Captain

11:46

Cook went the other way. And

11:48

because he was going the other way, to catch

11:50

the wind, what you have to do is go

11:52

very, very far south. And

11:55

that meant that to follow Captain Cook, we had

11:57

to sail all the way down from the UK

11:59

to South America. Africa, and then

12:01

across the southern Atlantic Ocean,

12:04

which is the most dangerous ocean in the world, and

12:06

then, well, one of the most

12:09

dangerous oceans in the world, and then from

12:11

South Africa to Australia, which probably is the

12:13

most dangerous ocean in the world, the southern

12:15

Indian Ocean. An ocean which

12:17

I was talking to a sailor the other

12:19

day, they'd never heard of somebody trying to

12:21

cross that ocean, the southern Indian Ocean, with

12:23

small children on board. And your dad

12:25

was the only one in the family who knew how to

12:27

sail. Did he initially

12:30

plan on doing this all on

12:32

his own, or I

12:34

know you had crew members from time to time.

12:37

Well, his initial plan was to take some

12:39

crew on board who were going to part

12:42

pay for the voyage, but what

12:44

happened was they all dropped out before the start

12:46

of the voyage because they decided

12:48

the voyage was going to be too dangerous. So

12:51

when we set sail from the UK, we had

12:54

three crew on board. One of

12:56

them actually knew how to sail, Owen, because

12:58

he had actually sailed on a kind of

13:01

cross-ocean trip to get to the UK. He

13:03

was an Australian. The other two

13:05

were novices. So we had my father who

13:07

had some sailing experience around the UK. We

13:11

had Owen who had quite a lot of sailing

13:13

experience. We had two novice crew. My

13:15

brother and me were seven and six years old, so we're

13:17

not really going to do environment sailing.

13:20

He turns out hate sailing and

13:23

gets very, very badly seasick and

13:26

so disappears into her cabin for several

13:28

days every time we set sail because

13:30

she's so badly seasick. So my

13:32

father's plan, given that he knows my mother

13:35

gets very seasick and we're so tiny, is

13:37

that he will take a few crew with

13:39

him from each port. But

13:42

what becomes clear as well after a

13:45

while is it's very difficult living with

13:47

other people on the boat. That's part

13:49

of the whole story. It's a very

13:51

confined space. So they haul out

13:53

with the crew quite often. So quite

13:55

early on, unfortunately, we lose Owen, so he

13:58

only comes with us as far as South

14:00

Africa. And then after that,

14:02

we really only have novice crew on

14:04

board. In the most dangerous

14:07

ocean in the world. That's right. When

14:09

we set sail from South Africa to cross

14:12

the most dangerous ocean in the world,

14:14

the southern Indian Ocean, we had on

14:16

board only two novice crew members, Larry

14:19

and Herbie, who'd never sailed before. Unbelievable.

14:23

Yeah, you mentioned your mother, and that's one of the

14:25

things that I found interesting about this whole thing. Did

14:28

she know ahead of time that she was

14:30

prone to seasickness? I'm

14:32

assuming that she did, because she had

14:34

done some sailing with my father before

14:36

we went. I mean, she'd been on

14:39

a few of these voyages.

14:41

She also knew that she didn't like

14:43

sailing, because she writes in her diary

14:46

about not really liking

14:48

sailing, not liking getting wet.

14:50

I don't know if she knew quite

14:52

how badly seasick she would get.

14:55

And obviously, I don't recall a conversation

14:57

with her about it before we set

14:59

sail. But she did

15:01

know that she didn't like sailing. So she really

15:03

went on this voyage, because if my father was

15:05

going to go, she was going

15:07

to go with him, even though she really didn't want

15:09

to go, and she didn't really want to be there.

15:13

When you talk about when you

15:15

encountered the capital letter

15:17

W, the wave, that

15:19

was in the Indian Ocean, right? That's

15:22

right. We set sail from South Africa. So we're

15:24

still in our first year of travel. We've gone

15:26

down to South America, across to South Africa. We

15:28

set sail from South Africa with these two novice

15:31

crew on board, and about

15:33

a week out of South Africa. And this is

15:35

a six-week trip to go

15:37

from South Africa to Australia. So about a

15:39

week, a week and a half into it,

15:41

we hit a terrible storm. The

15:44

waves start building up, and they're getting bigger

15:46

and bigger and bigger and bigger. And

15:48

the problem down there is there's no

15:51

landmass to break up the waves, so

15:53

they just continue to

15:55

build. And eventually, we're

15:57

sailing in waves that are 30

16:00

feet high. And my father is

16:02

trying to take the boat down each

16:04

wave in a perpendicular way. So the

16:06

boat is perpendicular to the wave because

16:09

if you were tall, twisted it, the

16:11

boat would flip. I mean, that's

16:13

how dangerous it was. And he started towing

16:15

lines off the back of the boat to try and

16:17

slow the boat down. And eventually

16:19

what happened was several

16:21

waves combined together, we believe.

16:24

And my father looked behind himself

16:27

and saw this enormous wall of water

16:29

which was 90 feet high. It was as

16:32

high as our main mast which was 60

16:34

foot high and kind of way above it.

16:36

So he kind of estimated it was kind

16:38

of 90 foot high. And this wave was

16:40

so enormous that it curled over the boat

16:42

which was, you know, 69 feet long. It

16:45

hit us halfway down the boat, kind

16:47

of 35 feet, kind of dip from the

16:49

back of the boat, from the stern of the boat,

16:51

went straight through the deck out the side of the

16:53

boat. Now, I'm a

16:55

little girl still. I'm standing downstairs in the

16:58

galley in the kitchen with my mother helping

17:00

her to try and make some food because we

17:02

hadn't eaten for several days really. I mean, in

17:05

a storm, you can't really do anything. And

17:07

I was kind of picked up when this

17:09

happened, flung against the ceiling of

17:11

the cabin, against the wall of the cabin.

17:14

I broke my skull, fractured my skull,

17:16

broke my nose. My father

17:18

was flipped overboard but came back on board

17:20

with his life harness but I was really

17:22

quite badly injured when the wave hit. And

17:25

you're out in the middle of the ocean. What

17:27

was the plan at that point? I mean, he couldn't really

17:30

tend to you because he still had to sail the boat.

17:33

That's right. I mean, the other reason why the

17:35

sailing was so dangerous is we were sailing alone.

17:37

So we weren't sailing with other

17:39

boats. We also had

17:42

very limited communication facilities on board.

17:45

We had the ability to send out a Mayday,

17:47

which he did, but got no response to it.

17:49

But otherwise, we just had a radio that could only

17:51

be used close to shore. So there was no way

17:54

we would get a hold of anybody with that. I

17:56

mean, equipment in general was incredibly limited on the boat.

17:58

This is before satellite never happened. navigation, so all

18:00

we had was a sextant really. We didn't

18:02

even have a fridge on board. I mean,

18:05

very, very basic. So we

18:07

were incredibly lucky that about three days

18:09

later, we came across a tiny atoll

18:11

in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

18:14

And if listeners kind

18:16

of look at the Indian Ocean, the Southern

18:18

Indian Ocean, they'll see there's almost nothing in

18:20

it. But if you really zoom in, you'll

18:22

find a tiny little atoll called our Al

18:24

Amsterdam. And we were incredibly lucky

18:26

that my father guessed which way

18:28

we should navigate because he couldn't see the sun

18:30

or the stars, so we couldn't work out where

18:32

we were. And we found

18:35

the atoll about three days later. But by

18:37

that point, my head was enormous. I mean,

18:39

my head made a disfractured skull. I had

18:41

a huge blood clot on my head that

18:44

became absolutely enormous. And when we

18:46

found this island, it had a tiny little

18:48

French base on it with a

18:50

doctor. And he operated

18:53

six or seven times on my head,

18:55

but unfortunately didn't have any suitable anesthetic.

18:57

So it was all done with no

18:59

anesthetic. So I remember it being

19:01

incredibly painful. And again, I saw a little

19:03

girl of seven years old. So not only

19:06

do you have the trauma of being shipwrecked

19:08

in the middle of the ocean, but then

19:10

these multiple operations on my head, and

19:12

neither of my parents joined me for

19:14

those. My mother didn't like operation. She

19:16

said that she hated kind of blood

19:18

so she wouldn't come in with me.

19:20

And my father was busy trying to

19:23

patch the boat together. So as

19:25

a little girl, as you can imagine, at

19:27

this point, I'm really quite traumatized

19:29

by the whole experience. I

19:32

was traumatized just reading about it. I

19:34

mean, and we'll talk about

19:36

your book, you've detailed all these things. But

19:39

yeah, you had and this was over a

19:41

period of several days, multiple surgeries. So

19:44

after the first time, you knew

19:46

what it was like with

19:48

having surgery. When you were you're

19:50

awake, no anesthesia, it's

19:53

just endure the pain. And then

19:56

the next day or a couple days later, you

19:58

had to make that trip. back to

20:00

that surgery room and you knew what was going

20:02

to happen again and multiple

20:05

times, why didn't your dad

20:08

at that point think, okay,

20:10

hang on, my family is

20:12

in danger. Do you think he

20:14

ever had that thought? I

20:17

don't think he did. I mean, my father

20:19

has written his own account of the first

20:21

year and a half of our voyage, which

20:24

covers the shipwreck and covers us getting all

20:26

the way to Australia and then his decision

20:28

to keep sailing. And at

20:30

no point in that book does he

20:33

ever really say that he considered not

20:35

sailing or express any

20:37

sort of regret or serious

20:41

concern for the welfare of the family. I

20:43

think for my father, he was absolutely passionate.

20:45

This was his dream. This is what he

20:47

was going to do. He was going to

20:49

be a hero. He was going

20:51

to be recognized for doing

20:53

this incredible voyage. And to

20:56

some extent, my brother and me

20:58

and almost my mother as well, we were all along

21:00

for the ride. So long as

21:02

we weren't getting in the way of that, there

21:04

will be a little bit of consideration for us.

21:06

But really this was about his dream and what

21:08

he was going to do. Throughout

21:11

this whole story, I detected sort

21:13

of a cloud of misogyny throughout.

21:17

If it was John, your brother that had

21:19

been injured, do you think anything

21:22

would have changed? Or was it

21:24

because of the fact that it was you and you're the girl?

21:28

So you're right. There was a huge amount

21:30

of misogyny, which becomes more

21:32

and more evidence as the tale

21:34

goes on, actually. I don't

21:37

remember too much misogyny

21:39

at that early stage, but of course I

21:41

may not have noticed it because I'm only

21:43

six, seven years old. So I

21:46

don't know if I would have spotted it. There

21:48

definitely was a, your little girl. So I mean,

21:50

the reason why I was standing in the gallett,

21:52

the point where the wave hit,

21:54

whereas my brother had been sent up to

21:56

the front of the boat to get a

21:58

tool for my father. was

22:01

there were very gender defined roles which

22:03

became even more extreme as time went

22:05

on. And certainly as

22:07

time went on, I became very conscious

22:09

of the fact that the concern for

22:11

my welfare was much lower than the

22:13

concern for my brother's welfare. The concern

22:15

for his education was much greater than

22:17

the concern for my education. I

22:20

was expected to kind of work down below cooking

22:23

and cleaning. He wasn't. He was

22:25

expected to kind of have fun. He was a

22:27

boy. So all of that became

22:29

very clear later. I don't remember it then,

22:31

so I really don't know. I

22:34

actually have a suspicion that my

22:36

father would have continued almost regardless

22:39

with the voyage. I mean, that

22:41

the voyage was the overriding

22:43

priority that he had. And

22:46

you said during the storm he was

22:49

actually flung overboard. How

22:51

did he describe that when

22:53

he was writing about it? Because you didn't even

22:55

know that right away. No, I mean, he

22:57

was flung overboard because he was on the

23:00

wheel. He surfaced and he actually

23:02

thought that that was it

23:04

because he couldn't actually see the boat

23:07

he wrote in his book when he kind of came

23:09

up above the water. And he

23:11

says that everything kind of went through his

23:13

head. And he thought

23:16

about why he'd started the voyage and he

23:18

talked about what he'd kind of done to

23:20

kind of get to that point. He'd

23:23

actually met a gypsy in the UK

23:25

who'd read his fortune before setting sail

23:27

who'd predicted that he was going to

23:29

live to an old age. So one

23:31

of his overriding thoughts he writes in

23:33

his book is, well, you know, she

23:35

was wrong. You know, I always knew she was wrong.

23:38

I never believed in fortunes. The

23:40

odd thing is, for me reading

23:42

his account, is he

23:44

never says that he thought, maybe

23:46

I shouldn't have been here. Maybe

23:48

I shouldn't have brought two little kids and

23:50

a wife who doesn't like sailing into the

23:52

most dangerous ocean in the world. He

23:55

doesn't think, what will they do

23:57

if I don't get back on board? know,

24:00

have I just, you know, not only sacrificed

24:02

myself but sacrificed my family. None of that

24:04

is kind of present in his book. It's

24:06

really very much about the

24:09

voyage and the decisions that he's

24:11

made to get to that point. I've

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28:54

could argue that a lot of explorers

28:56

and people of that nature

29:00

will make huge sacrifices and

29:03

arguably you would never want to be a member of their

29:05

family. Even Cook himself basically

29:08

sets sail multiple times,

29:10

left his family behind, eventually was

29:12

killed in Hawaii and never came

29:14

home. We admire

29:16

these people often but I

29:19

think it's very hard to be a member of their

29:21

family because the family really doesn't

29:23

get a lot of consideration. Beyond

29:26

the physical dangers, kids are

29:28

supposed to see a doctor for regular checkups.

29:31

How often did that happen? Well

29:34

basically pretty much never. I saw

29:36

the doctor when I was operated

29:38

on our lamsteredown and

29:40

then I remember once seeing a doctor,

29:42

so we're now talking about

29:45

a span of a decade that

29:47

I was on the boat, I remember

29:49

once seeing a doctor in Queensland Australia

29:51

because I started to get very bad

29:53

asthma on the boat. The boat,

29:55

as she started to decay and get

29:57

older, she became dustier and dirtier. I

30:00

was expected to sweep the cabin floor down

30:02

below. There was another one of those tasks

30:05

my brother was never asked to do. It

30:07

used to make me incredibly wheezy, but

30:09

unfortunately my mother was not hearing any. She thought

30:12

that was just an excuse. Eventually,

30:14

I managed to see a doctor in Queensland

30:16

and was diagnosed with asthma. I

30:18

was once hospitalised with it because

30:21

it became so bad when I

30:23

was in Sydney. Apart

30:25

from those two times, I never

30:27

remember seeing a doctor.

30:30

I don't remember seeing a dentist in

30:32

the whole of the ten years. I

30:35

may have done once. I have a vague memory

30:38

that my father went to the dentist in Hawaii

30:40

once and I saw a dentist

30:42

very, very briefly. Basically, there was no medical

30:45

care, no dental care,

30:48

often very limited food on the boat. Sometimes

30:51

we ran out of water on the boat. That's

30:54

not even getting on to some of the other things

30:56

I'm sure we'll talk about with friendships and all sorts

30:58

of other things that you can't do when you're trapped

31:01

on the boat. Yeah, and that was

31:03

my next thing. A big part of childhood is

31:05

making friends. Was that ever

31:07

even possible? I mean, you did stop

31:09

some places. That's right. So

31:11

we stopped a few times. We stopped in

31:13

Hawaii for a while and I made friends

31:16

there. I talk about them in the book,

31:18

Sandy and Heidi. We stopped in

31:20

Australia at one point and I made friends there

31:22

because I finally, finally managed to get to school

31:24

for a little while. But the vast

31:26

majority of my childhood, I

31:29

didn't have other friends. I didn't have friends to

31:31

play with. I had my brother, but

31:33

once we got a little bit older,

31:35

because my parents, particularly my mother, were

31:37

so different in how she treated us.

31:40

So my relationship with my mother

31:42

massively deteriorated and she really seemed

31:44

to dislike me and was very

31:47

unpleasant to me on the boat. She used to call

31:49

me names and not speak to me for days or

31:51

weeks on end. Whereas my brother was a little

31:54

bit of a little prince on the boat.

31:56

He could do no wrong. And so the effects of

31:58

kind of treating two children, I think, were children in

32:00

such different ways is really interesting. It kind

32:02

of forces you apart because I

32:04

knew that if we ever had a conflict, I'd

32:07

be punished and he wouldn't be. Whereas I think if

32:09

we'd both been treated in a similar way in a

32:12

difficult situation, we would have come closer together. So

32:14

on the boat, because I didn't really have him,

32:17

I was really

32:19

incredibly isolated. So I would

32:21

create imaginary friends. I

32:23

started writing a diary very extensively and

32:26

I would pretend the diary

32:28

was a person. I would talk to the diary

32:30

because I would have nobody else to talk

32:33

to. I tried to write to the friends

32:35

that I'd occasionally found in port but that

32:37

was very difficult because first of all as

32:39

a child, it's very hard. I mean it's

32:41

not an immediate. You want to talk to

32:44

people about the things that are happening to

32:46

you then. Sometimes people

32:48

have said to me, well surely you saw other

32:50

kids on other boats and

32:52

occasionally we did but the problem is particularly

32:54

as you become an older child, you

32:57

don't want to see a friend, you

32:59

don't want to meet another child for a

33:01

day and have a play date with them

33:03

and then you both sail off in different

33:06

directions. That's even assuming that you happen to

33:08

meet another boat with a child the same

33:10

age and ideally the same kind of

33:12

gender as you are. What you

33:14

want is a friend that you can build a

33:16

relationship with, that you can kind of share things

33:18

with and talk to about all

33:20

of your problems. So no, I

33:22

didn't have that for most of my childhood. What

33:26

were the good things about growing up on a

33:28

boat? I mean it wasn't all bad,

33:30

right? No, it wasn't all bad at

33:32

all and I think, by the way,

33:34

I think there's definitely ways to do this in a

33:36

much more positive way because there are some very good

33:38

parts of it. I mean first of all,

33:41

you get to see a part of

33:43

the planet that a lot of people never get to

33:45

see. It is incredible to me

33:48

in a way how few people get to

33:50

really spend time on the ocean And

33:52

if you spend time on the ocean,

33:54

you get to see. As my father

33:57

originally promised, we saw whales and dolphins,

33:59

phosphorescence in. Water we want sailed

34:01

past the volcano that was exploding to

34:03

the out to the as shit I'm

34:05

in the bucket of the law of

34:07

a running down the sides and exploding

34:09

when it hit the water you get.

34:11

Go to. An incredible difference

34:13

assortment of different. Places.

34:16

And cultures and people and meet them And

34:18

I think to this day I have a

34:20

real appreciation of the fact that so off.

34:22

Many many different ways for people

34:24

in this one it to create.

34:27

Civilizations. Of Ways of

34:29

Living which are equally valid. And.

34:31

I grew up without but of understanding

34:34

along the way. so those some very

34:36

positive what things about this. In

34:39

moderation. Your.

34:41

Education. You. Were called

34:43

and called home schooled. How

34:46

do the work? Will. Basically it

34:48

didn't and this is one of the

34:50

problems I think. If. Anybody

34:53

had else my parents they would

34:55

say that my mother was teaching

34:57

us for the reality was. Shitty.

35:00

She wasn't And of course, this is

35:02

incredibly hard for somebody outside. Of.

35:04

The family unit and even to see

35:06

an even more so when you on

35:09

a boat was nobody could see what's

35:11

happening inside a boat and in fact

35:13

I don't ever remember anybody asked. The

35:15

reality of it was the when we

35:17

first set cell phone England. My mother

35:20

had a pile of worksheet, math and

35:22

English worksheet of and she was a

35:24

primary school teacher. And slightly

35:26

sporadically over about the first eighteen months

35:28

or so, she would occasionally give us

35:31

a worksheet to work through. But.

35:33

She was incredibly impatient with me when I

35:35

was doing the worksheet. but what we did

35:37

do that when I like doing them. But

35:39

then she could stop. She said, well, I

35:41

don't really feel like I've I could have

35:43

want to teach of a could have more

35:45

senior curriculum so I'm not going to. So.

35:48

Then we had quite a few years where we

35:50

had no education at all. And I

35:52

was desperate to get an education. I

35:55

remember being desperate to get an education. And.

35:57

I was watching my diary about thing death. To

36:00

get an education. And. People said to

36:02

me but surely you were getting the

36:04

University of Life Yeah sure the you

36:06

would just seeing sunsets and education. And.

36:10

From. Somebody who was you experience it on

36:12

the other side. I would argue very strongly

36:14

against that. I I wanted to be a

36:16

sciences. And sitting on a

36:18

bones were all you've got his up.

36:20

A conflict. the motley collection of books

36:22

that we traded in the second hand

36:24

stores which off from work to the

36:26

collection of romance books in a few

36:28

can science fiction books you could teach

36:30

yourself and a chemistry, physics, math, metics.

36:32

I couldn't answer all the questions that

36:35

I wanted to ask about. Whoa the

36:37

know I'd I did the send you

36:39

know what's and yeah what makes the

36:41

f you know could have why oh

36:43

why the stalls up in the sky.

36:45

You know, Just explained to me

36:47

how the Woolworth I couldn't work that out

36:49

on. I was desperate to get an education

36:51

and desperate to have for it. But.

36:54

It was just very, very hard for a long time

36:56

on the boat and it wasn't. something that

36:58

my parents regarded as particularly impulse,

37:01

I know a lot of kids would be excited

37:03

about never having to go to school. Out a

37:05

john feel about that. Did. He care. Said.

37:08

John cared a lot less than I

37:10

did I think he and both ways

37:12

very interesting. I've had quite a few

37:14

experts kids contact me since my book

37:17

came out. And of the

37:19

ones who contacted me, most of them are

37:21

women. And I don't

37:23

know. why is that girls seem to

37:25

find this world? Very. Hard to

37:27

cope with. But. It may be the

37:29

girls mature a little bit earlier perhaps

37:31

hate using can generalizations, but they may

37:33

have a got a desire for education.

37:35

That kicks in. earlier than

37:38

boys. And a desire for

37:40

those teeth of friendships that keeps in

37:42

earlier than boys. Bills. Definitely

37:44

more. Vulnerable. So. You.

37:46

know i realized wait the early on when

37:49

i started to kind of hit puberty that

37:51

i couldn't go sure my it you know

37:53

be bi vre abominable so i had to

37:55

often stay on board because it will be

37:57

too dangerous to go ashore on my own

38:00

So as a boy you have much more freedom. So it's

38:02

a much more fun life. My brother was

38:04

allowed to be on deck working the sails,

38:06

whereas I wasn't. In fact, my father

38:08

only had one set of safety equipment

38:10

that a boy could use and he gave that

38:12

to my brother. So I had to kind

38:15

of stay below. So I don't

38:17

think he felt the same

38:19

overwhelming desire to get an education

38:21

that I did. But to

38:24

be honest, he was still denied an education.

38:26

So whether or not a child wants

38:29

an education, I personally

38:31

think, and I'm a parent myself, that we

38:33

have an obligation as parents to give

38:36

and encourage our children to get an education

38:38

because it massively affects their life chances if they

38:40

don't have that. Yeah, that's one of the basics

38:42

of being a good parent. And

38:44

you mentioned as you were becoming

38:46

a teenager and you really had

38:48

no private space, one

38:51

working toilet for all the family and

38:53

all the crew, and this really

38:55

baffled me, you had to share a

38:57

cabin with adult crew members,

38:59

you being a teenager, and these

39:02

were strangers. Your dad didn't

39:04

see that as dangerous at all? No,

39:06

he never did. And in fact, I remember

39:09

at one point, I was very distressed about

39:11

it because we had one particular – by

39:13

this time, I'm about 15 or 16, so

39:15

I'm very conscious of my vulnerability by that

39:18

time because nothing has happened to

39:20

most girls by that point, even if

39:22

they're relatively mild. You're very conscious, even

39:24

if nothing really bad has happened. You've

39:26

got to be careful. And

39:28

we had this trip, and I talk about it

39:30

in the book, where we had all male crew. And

39:33

by this point, my father is taking

39:35

multiple crew on board. They're all novices,

39:37

so none of them can fail. And

39:39

what he's doing is he's charging them

39:42

to come on the boat. So he's

39:44

effectively turned – he's turned Waywalker into

39:46

a kind of travelling hotel in

39:49

order to fund this voyage, which by now

39:51

has gone on multiple years past

39:53

the original promise of it being kind

39:56

of three years. I was

39:58

expected to cook and clean for all these crew.

40:00

with my mother which was taken kind of hours

40:02

each day for were worried me the more. Was.

40:05

My brother basically said bit of I

40:07

was gonna take the one, can the

40:09

cabin that only has could have to

40:12

bus and I refuse to share? With.

40:14

Sue because my brother cause he knew

40:16

that he was the. As

40:19

and any color listeners has been in that

40:21

to the family unit situation where you have

40:23

a very favorite child and of I I'm

40:25

favored Charles Unfortunately, he said the same each

40:27

other I suspect the inclination is that had

40:29

a play on that so he didn't want

40:31

to sit eating one share common with the

40:33

unfavored child and therefore my father said well,

40:35

he does. Therefore, you have to share with

40:37

the crew. In. The yeah either one of

40:40

the foot did the other for both capital the

40:42

to the cabin and I said to my father.

40:44

That they will men amenable where many civil

40:46

personal. My problem you know as soon as

40:49

turned have the small cabin and he doesn't

40:51

want to share with you so you just

40:53

have to. Get. On with it all. Share

40:55

a cabin with your mother. And if

40:57

anybody who kind of resist or against

40:59

this point will realize that Sharon cabin

41:01

with my mother. He's. A pretty cut.

41:03

a horrific thing for me to have to do because

41:06

of the way which she was treating me. By that

41:08

point of the me, that was a better thing to

41:10

do. Than to share with up heat up

41:12

the group of an adult men that I didn't

41:14

know. I mean I was yeah, I had enough

41:16

awareness to desert that was up a can. the

41:18

dangerous thing sticks to. that's what I didn't Of

41:20

course that that made the My mother was very

41:23

nasty to me while I was shown cabin to

41:25

her, but at least I was physically said. Eventual

41:28

you for your know that going

41:30

home. After three years was obviously

41:32

not in the plans but obviously you couldn't

41:35

leave your on a boat is know where

41:37

you could go and you're still just a

41:39

teenager. You. Finally

41:41

convinced your parents to allow

41:43

you to enroll in correspondence

41:45

school. Part. Of the work.

41:49

Well. So what we did is I convince

41:51

him to let me in the linen strangely

41:53

in. Correspondence Schools. And

41:56

what the way which have worked as they

41:58

gave me a whole pile of less. and

42:00

books. They were quite

42:03

incomplete. So the problem was that

42:05

I wanted to study sciences, physics

42:07

and maths and biology and so on. But

42:10

a lot of those courses were not properly written, so

42:12

they were kind of half written courses. So that was

42:14

kind of problem number one. Problem number

42:17

two, of course, is if you're going to do correspondence by

42:19

post, and we have to remember that we're

42:21

free internet. And of course,

42:23

we have no communication devices on the boat

42:25

really. So I can't ring anybody or anything

42:27

like that. And we don't have an

42:29

address. So what I would

42:32

do is I would work on these lessons when

42:34

I wasn't expected to do chores on the boat.

42:36

And then when we hit a port, I would post

42:39

these letters back to Australia. And then I would

42:41

go and ask my father, where are we going next?

42:43

And I would ask my school to send the

42:46

lessons back to the next place that we were

42:48

going to be. The issue was

42:50

that there aren't that many places by this

42:52

point we were in the South Pacific that

42:54

actually have a proper post office. So often

42:56

we would only get to a town with

42:58

a post office every six

43:00

weeks, couple of months, every three

43:02

months. And sometimes my father would

43:04

change direction. We will be heading

43:07

towards Samoa and all my

43:09

lessons will be coming back to Samoa and we

43:11

get halfway there and he changes mind and we

43:13

go to Fiji. So I would never get them

43:15

back because the post offices would destroy them if

43:17

they weren't collected. And then of course

43:19

on the boat, I had to fight

43:22

for space with these crew and fight for time

43:24

because I had to do the chores. So there

43:26

was loads of things that were

43:28

making it difficult but I had this burning

43:30

desire to educate myself because

43:34

I knew that that was

43:36

my only escape route from the boat. I mean

43:38

I didn't know if it was going to work.

43:40

I mean it's a bit

43:42

like kind of sitting in a kind of prison

43:44

cell, breathing a rope. Not

43:47

knowing whether it's going to be long enough to get you out the

43:49

window and down to the earth, but you haven't

43:51

got another alternative and you know it's a possibility.

43:53

And that's what it felt like for Me

43:55

with education. And Of course the other thing

43:58

was it was something I could control. In

44:00

this world where I had no control over

44:02

nothing, I didn't even. Have control of

44:04

where we're going. In fact this time I didn't

44:07

even know what was going next. less all the

44:09

often wouldn't tell us where we the some saving

44:11

next the school work with something that I. Could.

44:14

Control that was. That was mine. And

44:16

so it. It really did become a

44:18

lifeline. Can. You totally

44:20

was about. Thirty. And Barnaby.

44:23

Ah, I'm in. I'm A. We can

44:26

see each other even though the losers

44:28

can season and there's a big smile

44:30

when around those names. I'm thinking. When.

44:33

When I heard about them. I. Was

44:35

thinking there they were there for

44:37

you sort like in the movie

44:39

Castaway were Tom Hanks had Wilson.

44:42

Is. That an analogy that would work. Yeah, I

44:44

know. Absolutely. I've ever seen that movie

44:46

and feeling exactly the same way. Said.

44:49

Katie was my teddy bear. That

44:51

was with me when we first set

44:53

sail from England, and he survived the

44:55

whole voyage and in fact, He's.

44:57

Upstairs she the on tokens you from my

45:00

house in London. And petty city

45:02

in upstairs or that on the sofa

45:04

upstairs in one of the bedrooms and

45:06

he's sitting with Barnaby. You also came

45:09

back to England with me. honestly thought

45:11

to be as big, a bit more

45:13

useful because Barnaby only came on board

45:16

in Australia. have to was shipwrecked and

45:18

back. The Barnaby story is amazing this

45:20

man's soul. The Articles: There were lots

45:22

of articles in Australia about this family

45:25

being shipwrecked and this little girl who

45:27

was very badly injured. And.

45:29

This madman A tweet. Factory.

45:32

And he appeared donald the Ducks

45:34

one day. With a bag of toys

45:36

my brother the bag of toys for me to the

45:38

also read the we'd lost all of our Christmas presents

45:40

because they. Will swept away. By.

45:42

The way. And in that

45:44

bag was Barnaby there was there were tons of

45:46

other things as well with thought to be was

45:49

in that bag and Barnaby stayed with me all

45:51

the way. Truth and I would talk to them

45:53

have a nice. These animals. Either.

45:55

In a worldly you don't have any will

45:57

to talk to. These animals take on. Real

46:00

human dimensions. I also made up

46:02

imaginary friends, so that was very

46:05

helpful. And. Then this is

46:07

even more bizarre, possibly to the listeners

46:09

the boots herself. Was.

46:11

A bit of a human. His presence,

46:13

he tended to. Bring.

46:15

To the by selling boats always referred to as

46:17

women. And she had a slightly

46:20

cut of maternal present so in a way

46:22

the plane was also way a person in

46:24

a worldwide didn't have a lot of relationships

46:26

or people to talk to because my mother

46:29

you know really wouldn't talk to be a

46:31

loss of times that the what's hows post

46:33

about twelve a my father was generally busy

46:35

sailing sir have brains or time. There.

46:41

Have been times when Judean I have

46:43

gone out to a nice restaurant and

46:46

I've seen something on the menu Black

46:48

Linguine It's also called squid ink pasta

46:50

because it's with color comes from. I

46:52

never tried it because I didn't really north and

46:54

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47:27

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49:12

When you were 16, you

49:14

were left by your parents in New Zealand. You

49:16

and John, who at that time, of course, was

49:18

15. What

49:21

was your feeling about this? Were you glad to be

49:23

off the boat and taking classes, or

49:26

did you feel abandoned

49:28

by your parents? I felt

49:30

abandoned because what

49:33

happened was they left John and

49:35

me behind and they continued sailing.

49:38

And they had promised they weren't going to do that.

49:41

What was supposed to happen, what they promised to

49:43

me was that my mother was going to keep

49:46

sailing on the boat with another

49:48

skip up because they wanted to keep on taking

49:50

these paying crew. My father was

49:52

going to stay with us and

49:54

look after my brother and me in New

49:56

Zealand. I was going to

49:58

have to keep on doing this correspondence. but they

50:00

wanted him to go into normal school because

50:02

they were very concerned about his education. As

50:05

my father said to me at one point, your brother's

50:07

education is very important because at one point he's going

50:09

to grow up and have to look after a family.

50:11

So they were very concerned that my brother should go

50:14

to school because he hadn't been educating

50:16

himself really. And then at

50:18

the last moment my father turned around and said, I'm

50:21

going sailing as well and he disappeared leaving

50:23

me and my brother on our own.

50:26

I make it very clear that my role here

50:28

was to cook and clean for my brother and

50:30

look after him and in effect be his parent

50:32

to the extent that I could as a 16

50:34

year old girl with a 15 year old boy.

50:37

While of course I was still trying to

50:39

educate myself by post and he

50:42

also left me with the responsibility of running

50:44

his business, trying to find these

50:46

crew who were going to go on the

50:48

boat and pay him money to sail. And

50:51

I really, really struggled. I mean I struggled

50:53

so much that I think actually, and I've

50:56

talked quite openly about this, I think halfway

50:58

through that year I effectively had a breakdown.

51:01

I ended up ringing something which in

51:03

the UK is called Childline, in

51:06

New Zealand is called Youthline

51:08

and effectively you ring up and

51:10

you speak to a counsellor. And I

51:12

remember just describing to her my situation.

51:14

I'm a 16 year old girl, I'm

51:17

here living on my own with my younger brother. I

51:19

don't know any adults in New Zealand apart

51:22

from somebody in Auckland who lives hours away who

51:24

I can't go and see because my car

51:26

will never get that far and

51:28

I can't cope. I can't cope with all

51:30

the things that I'm being expected to do. I've

51:33

never really lived for any long period of

51:35

time away from my family. I

51:37

don't know any of my relatives. I'm living in a foreign country.

51:40

I don't even have a visa that's valid for

51:42

me to stay here very long. And in fact

51:44

the New Zealand authorities tried to throw me out twice

51:47

because they discovered that I was

51:49

there as an underage child.

51:52

And so I really, really struggled. I mean

51:54

I have to say, the woman who I

51:56

rang up on this counselling

51:59

phone call, was incredible.

52:01

I mean, and I've talked about

52:03

this a little bit since it

52:05

is amazing how powerful it can

52:07

be when you're in a very

52:09

desperate situation just to have

52:11

somebody who will listen to you. And that's what

52:13

she did. And it was incredible. In fact, I

52:16

think it was almost the first time in my

52:19

entire childhood that an adult

52:21

had stopped and listened to

52:23

me. Just to take an interest in you.

52:25

Take an interest and just listen to me

52:27

for as long as I needed to talk. I

52:30

did a lot of crying as well, I think.

52:32

But as long as I needed to

52:34

talk, and then that really helped me get myself

52:38

back together at least enough to get through

52:40

the rest of that time in New Zealand

52:42

and to keep studying. One

52:44

of the things I noticed in

52:47

this story about your dad is

52:50

he never has

52:52

the option of giving up. It's

52:55

like, okay, the boat's destroyed, we're out of

52:57

money. I don't know where we're

52:59

going next, but hey, we'll figure it out.

53:01

It'll all work out. No worries. Do

53:05

you think some of that was passed on to you?

53:08

Because you were in a really stressful situation

53:10

there as well, and somehow

53:12

you got through it. I

53:14

think you're right. I mean, the funniest thing about all

53:16

of this is, as you mentioned, it

53:19

was a very gendered world.

53:22

But the very odd thing about it is the person

53:24

who was most like my father is me.

53:27

I've always recognized that. Now,

53:31

I hope that I haven't

53:34

used that determination in

53:37

the way that he did. I

53:39

do apply it to myself. I put

53:42

a lot of pressure on myself to achieve

53:45

things and do things. There are so many

53:47

things I want to do. Right now, I

53:49

feel very passionate about getting other

53:51

kids to get access to education.

53:53

I push myself very hard, but

53:56

I have children of my own, and I've never

53:58

kind of denied them an education. I

54:00

mean, I've tried to give them the sort of

54:02

childhood that I would have wanted, but you're

54:05

right. I think there's a lot of my father

54:07

in me and a lot of those

54:09

characteristics are huge strengths, if

54:12

used in the right sort of way. Getting

54:16

accepted into college, that seemed

54:18

like quite a long shot for that

54:20

to happen. It was. And

54:23

looking back, I think I realize

54:26

even more now what a long shot it

54:28

was. But when I

54:30

was there, although I

54:32

realized, I guess I realized it

54:35

was a long shot, but you see, the thing is I

54:37

had no other option. So I

54:39

don't remember sitting around thinking, how big a

54:41

long shot is this or not? It was

54:43

like, this is my only shot. So that's...

54:46

There's no plan B, right? There's no plan

54:48

B. So it's not that

54:50

I'm weighing up alternatives and odds of different

54:52

routes. This was my only route. There

54:55

I am. I'm a 16, 17

54:57

year old girl living in New Zealand. I'm

55:00

an alien, so I can't stay there. I'm going

55:02

to have to leave. I've never

55:04

seen any of my relatives since we left England

55:06

10 years before. I

55:09

desperately want to go to university. I'm

55:11

really kind of craving kind of education.

55:14

So what I do is I write to every university

55:16

I've ever heard of in the world. And

55:19

of course, I have nowhere

55:21

to go to get the addresses.

55:23

So I make up the addresses.

55:25

So I write to London University,

55:27

London, England, and Sydney University, Sydney,

55:30

Australia, Harvard University, Harvard

55:32

America, London, Oxford,

55:34

Cambridge. They tended to

55:37

be the elite universities, not because I thought

55:39

I was elite, but because those were the

55:41

only ones I'd ever heard of. Because

55:43

somehow even living on a boat, you've

55:45

heard of a Harvard or an Oxford

55:47

because somehow they're in the conversation

55:49

or they're in a book or they're somewhere.

55:53

And most of these universities wrote back

55:55

and said, absolutely no way. We won't

55:57

consider you. I mean, Australia and New

55:59

Zealand would. consider me because I had a British

56:02

passport. Harvard never wrote back

56:04

because it turns out that Harvard University, Harvard

56:06

America is not the right address, which is

56:08

slightly unfortunate. London wrote

56:11

back and said, it's

56:13

just too crazy a story, we can't

56:15

consider you. But amazingly, Oxford wrote back

56:17

and said, write us two essays, and

56:19

I did. And then they said,

56:21

if you can find a way to get back

56:23

here, we'll interview you. And

56:26

so I went and picked Kiwifruit, earned

56:28

enough money with a small contribution from

56:30

my father to get a one-way ticket

56:32

back, and basically bet everything

56:35

on that one interview. And

56:38

what Oxford did, what my tutor, Marian

56:40

Dawkins did when I kind of turned

56:42

up in her office and I did

56:44

this interview, is she basically took a

56:46

bet on me. And she weighed the

56:49

entrance requirements, which apparently you could do,

56:51

but in extraordinary circumstances, and

56:53

basically let me in despite the fact that

56:55

I didn't fulfill all the entry criteria. And

56:57

I owe her a huge debt. I mean,

57:01

it was a good bet in that when I got

57:03

there, I did well academically, but it was a

57:05

huge bet on her. So I mean, she wasn't

57:08

to know that. I mean, she probably or

57:10

somebody that she believed was clever,

57:12

but she made a huge bet on

57:15

me. She could very easily have said

57:17

no, I'm very conscious of that. Do you keep

57:19

in touch with her? I

57:21

do, I do indeed. So

57:24

I've seen her several times. I've talked to

57:26

her, I've thanked her about it. In

57:29

fact, I wrote an essay for

57:31

my college magazine, and she very kindly wrote

57:33

a little bit on it as

57:35

well. And in fact, just kind of talked

57:37

about the fact that it's harder now to

57:40

do that than it used to be

57:42

in the past. It's one of the

57:44

consequences of the push that

57:47

we've had in the UK to get

57:49

university entrance to be more diverse. One

57:51

of the consequences of it is that

57:53

it's become a bit more bureaucratic, the

57:55

entrance process. And I strongly

57:57

support it being more diverse, but unfortunately,

58:00

One of the consequences is these wild cards

58:02

are a bit harder to play, but yes,

58:04

I have kept in touch with her. I'm

58:06

very conscious I owe her and I owe

58:08

my college at Oxford a

58:11

debt because they together made a

58:13

bet on this very strange kid

58:15

who turned up. I was wearing

58:18

a long wool skirt that I'd sewed myself

58:20

carrying a photo album full of pictures of

58:22

whales and dolphins that I'd taken off the

58:25

boat. I was quite an extraordinary

58:27

thing when I turned up for this interview.

58:29

She must look back on that and say, man,

58:31

I am so glad I made that decision because

58:34

of the way things turned out. It's amazing. You

58:37

learned how to sail a boat by being on the

58:39

boat all those years, but you

58:41

have since officially become a qualified

58:43

and certified sailor. Why did you

58:45

do that? I

58:49

think I had something

58:51

that lots of people, you know, people call

58:53

it imposter syndrome. I think I'm

58:55

worried that here I was, I was

58:57

writing a book about a childhood at

58:59

sea, but I hadn't

59:01

really been back to sea very much since

59:03

I'd left the boat. There

59:06

were a couple of reasons for that. One was when

59:08

I came back to the UK, the

59:10

opportunities to go sailing were very limited. I

59:12

didn't have very much money. In fact, I

59:14

was incredibly poor when I came back to

59:16

the UK because my parents shortly after I

59:18

came back, they disowned me. So I was

59:20

poverty stricken. So I didn't have

59:23

the sort of money that would enable you to go sailing.

59:25

And then I was busy getting on with my

59:27

life, you know, starting a career, meeting my husband,

59:30

having kids and so on. But

59:33

when I came to write the book, I felt

59:35

I've got to, that's what I need to reconnect

59:37

with the sea to be able to write about

59:39

it in a vivid way. And

59:41

secondly, I had this imposter syndrome thing

59:44

of yes, of course, I know how

59:46

to sail. I mean, it's fit, you know, I could,

59:48

I could kind of, for me, it's

59:50

almost in my blood. But

59:52

I don't think I ever learned the correct language for

59:54

it. I mean, we had our own language on the

59:57

boat because we had so many

59:59

novice crew on. My father very

1:00:01

rarely used the technical terms for anything

1:00:03

because we would, for example,

1:00:05

we color-coded the ropes on the mast

1:00:08

so that my father could go

1:00:11

pull the red rope on the short

1:00:13

mast or pull the red rope on the

1:00:15

tall mast so people would know what they

1:00:17

had to do. So I didn't

1:00:20

know the correct names of all the ropes. But

1:00:23

if I was going to write a book, I

1:00:25

needed to do that because I knew that sailors would

1:00:27

read the book and they would expect that. So that's

1:00:29

when I did it. I had to say

1:00:31

it was pretty touch and

1:00:33

go whether I would get the

1:00:35

upmaster qualification. It's a very tough

1:00:37

qualification, far tougher than I had

1:00:40

expected, but I'm glad I did.

1:00:42

I'm just picturing all of those novice crew

1:00:44

members who would get on their next boat

1:00:46

and none of those colors were on the

1:00:49

lines. They don't know what

1:00:51

to do at that point, you know? I know. I

1:00:53

know. You've said that by going

1:00:55

public with this story and writing the book, you

1:00:59

might sacrifice the relationship with your parents.

1:01:01

And of course, you've just mentioned that

1:01:03

they eventually disowned you.

1:01:06

Do you have any relationship at all

1:01:08

with them today? No,

1:01:11

none at all. So, I mean,

1:01:13

my parents disowned

1:01:15

me multiple times in my life. I mean,

1:01:17

my father once threw me off the boat on

1:01:19

an island. He obviously, he and my mum

1:01:22

left my brother and me behind in New Zealand.

1:01:25

He disowned me actually several times when

1:01:27

I was in university, which meant that

1:01:29

I was poverty stricken because I wasn't

1:01:32

eligible to get a grant because we'd lived

1:01:34

away from the UK for so long. And

1:01:37

most recently, he walked out on me

1:01:39

in 2019 after demanding, with

1:01:41

quite a few swear words involved, that

1:01:43

I shouldn't publish my book. He

1:01:46

hadn't read the book, but of course, he knew enough

1:01:48

about the story to fear

1:01:50

that if I wrote

1:01:53

How I'd experienced Waywalker, that he might

1:01:55

not come across in the way that

1:01:57

he wanted to come across. Now.

1:02:00

I knew when I started to write

1:02:02

the book that this was a rich

1:02:04

the my because my parents had never

1:02:06

had any tolerance for anyone criticizing them,

1:02:09

even in the most mind away I'd

1:02:11

once had a conversation with my father

1:02:13

were. My. Late husband had

1:02:15

asked. Who. Was it who really

1:02:17

helps me get into university? And

1:02:19

my father is always had this story that

1:02:22

he told everybody that she's got Leeds University.

1:02:24

He was the one who got me into

1:02:26

Oxford. Which. Equals was never through

1:02:28

foot in his mind. That's how it happened.

1:02:31

road. In his mind, that's what happened

1:02:33

and that was based on the fact

1:02:35

that we had one conversation before I flew

1:02:37

back to the Uk where he gave me

1:02:39

a bit of advice on interview technique. And

1:02:42

he always thought that he got been

1:02:44

to Oxford. That's what he thought was

1:02:47

his story. I'd only sits when when

1:02:49

my husband off me well mostly really

1:02:51

helped me get into Oxford. was Roger.

1:02:54

You. Was my ball. The teacher in the course

1:02:56

on the school who by the way was

1:02:58

an amazing man. He would have made books

1:03:00

in New Zealand, helps me with those essays.

1:03:02

I mean he really. I owe him. A

1:03:04

debt as well. I my father was so

1:03:07

angry at the sensor. That he goes

1:03:09

up school repeatedly a t one of

1:03:11

my kitchen chairs across the kitchen slammed

1:03:13

into the cupboards and he had my

1:03:15

mother still that to the house of

1:03:17

we didn't hear from them from I'm

1:03:19

so I knew. That if I

1:03:21

was any sort of version of the past

1:03:24

that had any sort of. To

1:03:26

sit at the was even the mall this

1:03:28

way. Interpretable as a criticism, they

1:03:30

would never forgive me and in a funny

1:03:32

sort of way that was usually releasing because

1:03:34

I B C had to make a decision

1:03:37

I was either going to vote about. Why?

1:03:39

Wasn't gonna write, it, wasn't a bit away. The

1:03:41

was no middle way. Possible.

1:03:44

I mean there was no need for me to write

1:03:46

the book in a nasty where did pick I have

1:03:48

it but I you know number people told me it's.

1:03:50

As. You very mild was of in some ways

1:03:52

but it was no point to be tried to

1:03:55

make it in a way that would be palatable.

1:03:58

And then what actually happened was a. It

1:04:00

even worse than I expected them to

1:04:02

either. Sadly, my mom passed away. In.

1:04:04

Twenty sixteen. Off. To I'd

1:04:06

started cut of. Writing the book and she left

1:04:09

me a very unpleasant letter where she. Threatened to

1:04:11

try and. Destroy My husband's career.

1:04:13

Five published a book. And my

1:04:15

father walked out on me and my kids

1:04:17

in twenty nineteen up at which point I

1:04:19

was at a widow, cassettes and smite. my

1:04:21

husband. But. I didn't feel

1:04:24

any regrets about that. This was a

1:04:26

choice that I made. I wrote the

1:04:28

book knowing that that would happen. And

1:04:30

realizing that actually the relationship that I

1:04:33

would probably going to lose with them

1:04:35

and it will be their choice not

1:04:37

mine. But. Demolished was going to lose

1:04:39

with them. Wasn't. A relationship

1:04:41

that actually. Move. Me

1:04:43

very much Happiness. Will. Pull

1:04:46

me. It wasn't a relationship that I could

1:04:48

rely on. I didn't does that they would

1:04:50

ever be there if I needed them. And.

1:04:52

I didn't really think they typically cared

1:04:54

about me. So. Yes I

1:04:56

yes I have said I feel very happy

1:04:59

with the decision that I too. Was.

1:05:01

Struck me was that your parents

1:05:04

were living their dream particular your

1:05:06

dad and won't really considering the

1:05:08

physical and social toll that would

1:05:10

have on you and John. What's.

1:05:14

Ironical. Your mother often accused

1:05:16

you of being selfish because you

1:05:18

wanted to study and do homework.

1:05:20

And. Sort of clean the boat. Or.

1:05:23

Prepare. A meal you know or

1:05:25

or one of those tasks or tours

1:05:27

a yours had to do harm. Her.

1:05:30

Own wrong with other than have a question

1:05:32

is is just a thought that I had.

1:05:34

I. Agree with you I think there is a theme

1:05:36

all the way to the book it but if I

1:05:38

had to pick. The public to

1:05:40

really important themes that to the come

1:05:43

out of the but the the first

1:05:45

one is this idea. That.

1:05:47

A mean, like my entire childhood

1:05:49

was spent inside somebody's elses dream.

1:05:52

And. My father. Was. following his

1:05:54

passion this was something he wanted to

1:05:56

do i think it was all about

1:05:58

being a hero all about

1:06:01

doing something extraordinary, being recognized as

1:06:03

that, and this was his dream.

1:06:06

And what he didn't seem to recognize,

1:06:08

or if he recognized that he didn't

1:06:10

ever want to acknowledge it or do

1:06:12

anything about it, was the

1:06:14

people who were sacrificing for

1:06:17

that dream were me

1:06:19

and my brother and to some extent my

1:06:21

mother. And in fact, we had the opposite

1:06:23

of freedom. Whereas he had complete freedom on

1:06:26

this boat. He could pick up the anchor

1:06:28

and sail wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted

1:06:30

to do. And by the way, he often

1:06:32

did that. My parents would fall out with

1:06:34

somebody and they'd up the anchor and they

1:06:37

would sail away. Every time we left the

1:06:39

port, my father would throw all of the

1:06:41

parking tickets in the water. I don't

1:06:44

think he paid any taxes from the moment that

1:06:46

we left the UK. So they

1:06:48

lived this life. They could go anywhere

1:06:50

they wanted any moment in time, walk

1:06:52

away from any situation that they just

1:06:55

liked. What I had

1:06:57

was imprisonment because

1:06:59

I was on this boat. I

1:07:01

had no say in where we were going. I often

1:07:04

didn't know where we were going. I would

1:07:06

sometimes beg my father to stop so I

1:07:08

could see in a port where I knew

1:07:10

there would be a friend or somebody on

1:07:12

another boat or somebody I knew and he

1:07:15

often would not want to do that,

1:07:17

usually would not want to do that. I don't think

1:07:19

he ever really took my need

1:07:21

into consideration. I mean, I don't remember a single

1:07:24

time in my childhood where he

1:07:26

changed course in order to

1:07:28

help me or to do something that

1:07:30

was helpful for me. So this was

1:07:32

his dream and his freedom and

1:07:35

what it created was my imprisonment. And

1:07:38

one of the reasons for writing the book is to

1:07:40

kind of create this debate about, well, where do parents

1:07:42

write? Have to have some

1:07:44

sort of balance with children's rights.

1:07:47

And I don't think it should be an extreme

1:07:49

either way, but there's got to be a balance

1:07:52

somewhere there in the middle. And a

1:07:54

good parent would recognize that there's a balance and

1:07:56

find where that is. Do you

1:07:58

ever see or talk to John? anymore?

1:08:02

So I did for many years. My brother

1:08:04

remained very close to my parents. In

1:08:06

fact when my parents came back to the UK

1:08:08

they all lived in a kind of house together

1:08:11

and my brother and I never really

1:08:13

fell out but we were never very

1:08:15

close because we were treated in such

1:08:17

different ways as children and so

1:08:20

we really remain quite separate

1:08:22

for most of our adult lives. I think

1:08:25

his experience on Wave Walker was really

1:08:28

very different to mine because he was treated

1:08:30

in such a different way to how I

1:08:32

was treated and I completely kind

1:08:34

of recognise that. I don't dispute that

1:08:37

in the slightest. I feel slightly sad

1:08:39

that when I've tried to

1:08:41

talk to him about what it was like to

1:08:44

be me he hasn't really wanted to

1:08:46

have that conversation but

1:08:48

fundamentally you know this was not about

1:08:50

him. This was you know it wasn't his

1:08:52

choice to be on the boat and it

1:08:54

wasn't my brother who chose to keep sailing

1:08:57

so this for me is much more about

1:08:59

the decisions that my parents made. Today

1:09:02

you're the chief operating officer of a

1:09:04

large holding company in the Netherlands based

1:09:06

in the Netherlands. Do

1:09:08

you attribute any of

1:09:11

your business success with

1:09:13

the challenges that you had in your

1:09:15

childhood? I do. There's

1:09:18

quite a lot of evidence interestingly

1:09:20

that people who have escaped

1:09:23

from difficult childhoods often

1:09:27

end up being very resilient people.

1:09:29

Now I don't think you'd ever

1:09:31

want to go through the sort of childhood that I

1:09:33

went through in order to become resilient and

1:09:35

a lot of children who have very difficult

1:09:38

childhoods don't manage to escape or are very

1:09:40

damaged by it so I consider myself incredibly

1:09:42

lucky that A I managed to escape and

1:09:45

B I managed to escape not

1:09:47

with no scars. I think I have quite a

1:09:49

few scars some kind of physical and some kind

1:09:51

of mental but basically able to kind of get

1:09:53

on with my life and I

1:09:55

have escaped with some real

1:09:58

strengths and one of them is resilience.

1:10:01

And for me, the way in which

1:10:03

it plays out is whether I've been really

1:10:05

faced by a difficult challenge. So for example,

1:10:08

I had to step in and be

1:10:10

the CEO of a very large company during

1:10:12

the COVID years because the

1:10:14

kind of CEO who'd been there had to

1:10:16

step out. It was

1:10:19

very challenging. People were very stressed. But for

1:10:21

me, when I'm in a situation like that,

1:10:24

I can take myself back to being a seven-year-old

1:10:27

girl, sitting on a boat in

1:10:29

the middle of the Indian Ocean with a fractured

1:10:32

skull with no control over my life, with

1:10:34

years ahead of me with no control, and it

1:10:37

puts everything into proportion. Because

1:10:39

now I'm an adult, I'm not

1:10:41

physically threatened. I can deal

1:10:44

with this. I can work my way

1:10:46

through it. And so I find when I'm

1:10:48

confronted by very difficult situations, I become

1:10:50

very calm and very rational. And

1:10:52

that is a huge asset. It has been a huge

1:10:54

asset to me throughout my career

1:10:57

that I can do that in those

1:10:59

circumstances. The price I

1:11:01

paid in my childhood was not worth

1:11:03

this benefit, but it definitely is

1:11:06

a benefit which I kind of recognize. I

1:11:08

can picture you in a business

1:11:11

stressful environment, looking back

1:11:13

on your childhood and thinking, hey, I

1:11:15

can do hard things. I can handle

1:11:17

this. And you're obviously

1:11:19

not just skilled in business, but you're

1:11:22

also a very skilled writer. And

1:11:24

I really enjoyed the book. Can you

1:11:26

talk about your book and where people

1:11:29

can get it? Absolutely.

1:11:31

So I think Wave Walker is now available

1:11:33

in all good bookstores. It

1:11:35

has sold out a couple of times

1:11:37

on Amazon in the US because there's

1:11:39

been a lot more demand than Harper

1:11:42

Collins had expected, which I suppose

1:11:44

is a good thing. Frustratingly, it

1:11:46

means it's occasionally, has

1:11:48

occasionally gone out of stock. There's a big

1:11:50

reprint coming later on this month,

1:11:52

but it's still available in all good

1:11:54

bookstores. So you'll find it all over

1:11:56

the place, all the indie bookstores as

1:11:58

well. You'll find it and Kindle and

1:12:01

Audible. I actually read it myself on

1:12:03

Audible, which was a great experience actually,

1:12:05

although I did end up pause for

1:12:07

about a week afterwards. So it's widely

1:12:09

available. I really hope that people enjoy

1:12:12

it. And what's interesting is

1:12:14

although the setting of it is

1:12:16

extraordinary, I'm finding a lot

1:12:18

of readers really relate to different bits of

1:12:20

it, whether it's the interpersonal relationships that went

1:12:23

on in the family, or

1:12:25

some elements of the places that

1:12:27

we went to, or some of the adventures that

1:12:29

we experienced. So I hope people really enjoy it.

1:12:32

I definitely enjoyed it. I actually walked

1:12:34

into my local Barnes and Noble, which

1:12:36

we happen to still have here and

1:12:39

got it right off the shelf. So yeah,

1:12:41

I would encourage people. It's wonderfully written.

1:12:44

And of course, obviously lots of details

1:12:46

of the story that we couldn't

1:12:48

go through here on the podcast. But Suzanne,

1:12:51

thanks so much for telling your story. Thank

1:12:53

you so much. I really enjoyed it. You

1:12:58

can see pictures of Suzanne and

1:13:00

her family and the boat they

1:13:02

all lived on. And the episode

1:13:05

notes at whatwasthatlike.com/166. You

1:13:08

know, Suzanne's story was brought to my attention

1:13:11

because of listeners. On the same

1:13:13

day, someone posted a link in the Facebook

1:13:15

group and another person messaged me directly saying,

1:13:17

Hey, this would be a good story for

1:13:19

the podcast. So if you come across something

1:13:22

you think might work, please let me know.

1:13:24

I mentioned at

1:13:26

the top of the show that I have an

1:13:28

announcement about the podcast. So what's going on? Well,

1:13:31

I want to introduce you to

1:13:33

Meredith, my new producer. Meredith

1:13:35

is a podcaster herself and she's going to

1:13:37

be helping me put some episodes together. So

1:13:40

since you'll be hearing her voice on some segments

1:13:42

and you'll probably hear her doing some of the

1:13:45

ads, you should know a little bit about her.

1:13:47

She's from Nebraska, but now lives in North

1:13:49

Florida. She was named one of podcast

1:13:52

magazines 40 under 40 in 2022. And she loves

1:13:56

hanging out with her husband at the beach and

1:13:59

something I didn't. know about her, she

1:14:01

knows sign language. I used

1:14:03

to be a sign language interpreter actually.

1:14:06

I learned a few basic signs by

1:14:08

myself with books when I was little and

1:14:11

then a church that I was going

1:14:13

to offered classes. So I

1:14:15

took some classes there and then by the time

1:14:17

I got to high school, there happened to be

1:14:20

a few deaf girls at my high school and

1:14:22

we became friends. That's how I learned most of

1:14:24

my sign language but I became an interpreter when

1:14:26

I invited a friend to church and

1:14:29

just, I don't know, I sat next to

1:14:31

her thinking, yeah, she's just going to absorb this

1:14:34

message magically. She elbowed

1:14:36

me so hard in the ribs and said,

1:14:38

hey, are you going to interpret for me

1:14:40

or what? That's how

1:14:42

I began interpreting. I later got QOS

1:14:44

certified by the state of Nebraska and

1:14:47

was a real interpreter. If

1:14:50

you're in the Facebook group, you know,

1:14:52

I ask a new thought-provoking question every

1:14:54

Tuesday so I asked Meredith one of

1:14:56

those questions. When you were

1:14:59

a child, what did you get the

1:15:01

most excited about? I was

1:15:03

obsessed with nature as a kid. When

1:15:05

my parents' friends would come over, I would take

1:15:07

them by the hand and drag them to

1:15:09

my room to tour the nature museum

1:15:12

where I would have a

1:15:14

row of rocks and seashells

1:15:16

lined up, each carefully

1:15:19

labeled with their, you know, their names.

1:15:22

And if I didn't know their names, because

1:15:24

remember this is pre-internet, I would give them

1:15:26

a name, a human name.

1:15:28

So you'd have, oh, this is a

1:15:30

varied coquina next to, this is Bob

1:15:32

the Rock. And

1:15:34

Meredith's podcast is called Meredith for

1:15:36

Real. And she talks to

1:15:38

guests about a lot of different things, sometimes things

1:15:41

you might not normally hear about. I've

1:15:43

been a listener to her show for a while. She

1:15:46

calls herself the curious introvert.

1:15:49

And I think her natural curiosity is

1:15:51

something that she and I have in

1:15:53

common. I explore, with

1:15:55

the help of a guest, taboo

1:15:57

topics through nuanced conversations. Think

1:16:00

of questions that you might be too afraid to Google,

1:16:02

like, how do I know if I'm an alcoholic? Or

1:16:05

questions that just Google can't answer,

1:16:07

like, are trigger warnings helping

1:16:09

us heal or making us fragile? The

1:16:12

goal is to inspire active curiosity instead

1:16:14

of canceling or just, you know, snap

1:16:17

to judgments. And yeah,

1:16:19

it's very ADD friendly, since the topics

1:16:21

are different week to week, but I

1:16:23

do cover a lot of health and

1:16:25

wellness, science and tech, love and relationships.

1:16:27

And although some of the topics are kind of

1:16:30

out there, like aliens, I try to keep

1:16:32

it pretty tethered. Tethered fun. How's

1:16:34

that for a nerdy explanation? So

1:16:37

that's Meredith. You can find her show on

1:16:39

any podcast app. Just search for Meredith for

1:16:41

real. I'm already enjoying working with

1:16:43

her, and she's going to help me make

1:16:46

what was that like even better going forward.

1:16:50

Graphics for this episode were created by Bob

1:16:52

Brettts. Full episode transcription

1:16:54

was created by James Lye. And

1:16:57

finally, we're at this week's listener story.

1:17:00

You have a story? I know you do,

1:17:02

because everyone does. It can

1:17:04

be anything interesting that happened to you that you

1:17:06

can tell in about five to ten minutes. Just

1:17:09

record it on your phone and email

1:17:12

it to Scott at whatwasthatlike.com. This

1:17:15

one is from a listener who was at work, and

1:17:18

the completely unexpected happens. Stay

1:17:22

safe, and I'll be back here in

1:17:24

a week with our next flashback episode.

1:17:29

This took place in about 1994. At

1:17:33

the time, I was editing

1:17:35

TV commercials. And

1:17:37

this one was sort of like

1:17:39

a high-end fashion brand, and I

1:17:41

also helped do the graphic design

1:17:44

and animation, like sketched

1:17:46

it out. The director

1:17:48

was like a big deal. Ed

1:17:50

won an Oscar for costume

1:17:52

design on a big movie, and

1:17:54

this was her first directing gig.

1:17:57

So it was kind of big pressure. And

1:18:00

we sort of do what's called

1:18:02

off-lining, which means we do a

1:18:04

cut, but it's low resolution. It's

1:18:07

not polished. We needed

1:18:09

to polish up and really make the

1:18:11

graphics look great and make them pop

1:18:13

and just the best they can be.

1:18:16

And so we hired a

1:18:18

video effects person who

1:18:20

was like one of the best in

1:18:22

the city. This was in New York City. Everybody

1:18:26

loved him. His name was Grant. I

1:18:29

had a relationship with him and he

1:18:31

was just great. And

1:18:34

so the next day I show up

1:18:36

bright and early for the video effects

1:18:38

studio, which is basically Grant sitting at

1:18:40

a million dollar console doing his work.

1:18:43

The thing about Grant is unlike many others,

1:18:45

you don't have to pipe in. You don't

1:18:47

have to give him direction. He just does

1:18:49

it. So I'm just going to lie there

1:18:51

on the couch. The art

1:18:53

director was there and one other

1:18:56

person, and I'm not sure, it might have been Grant

1:18:58

Grant's assistant. It

1:19:00

was really boring. Hours go by and Grant is

1:19:03

just doing his work and we're just sitting there.

1:19:06

It was after a few hours and

1:19:08

Grant went, and

1:19:12

the art director said, yeah, it's

1:19:14

like watching paint drive. And

1:19:16

then Grant just threw

1:19:19

back his head, his arms threw back

1:19:21

and he slumped in his chair. They

1:19:24

laughed because they thought he was continuing

1:19:26

this joke. But

1:19:29

I knew something was wrong and I

1:19:31

got up and I went to look

1:19:33

at his face because we're sitting behind

1:19:35

him and his eyes were completely dilated.

1:19:38

His skin was turning blue. And

1:19:42

I said, okay, Grant, we're going to deal with this. And

1:19:45

then I got the art director to help

1:19:47

me get them laid out on the floor.

1:19:50

I don't know. Maybe that was the wrong thing. I

1:19:52

don't know. I wasn't

1:19:54

really confident about my CPR skills. So

1:19:56

I knew the people in the

1:19:58

next room. I knew the editor. and I asked him

1:20:00

if he knew and he said, yeah, I said come

1:20:03

with me and he went in with Grant. I

1:20:05

went to the front desk and I told them what's going

1:20:07

on and to call 911. The

1:20:10

other editor kept working on him and

1:20:12

eventually the paramedics arrived and they worked

1:20:14

on him for a while. It

1:20:17

was just a shock, the whole place, everyone's

1:20:20

work stopped in all the sessions and

1:20:22

all the rooms. And

1:20:24

he was taken out in a stretcher, but

1:20:26

not with a sheet over his face. So

1:20:29

I thought maybe he would

1:20:31

be okay or he'd have a chance.

1:20:34

Well, we obviously couldn't continue the session.

1:20:36

So I ended up going home and

1:20:38

I was shaking. I

1:20:40

did get a call from the

1:20:42

owner of the company. The Grant had

1:20:45

died. I

1:20:47

got a call from the Big

1:20:49

Shot director. It was very nice

1:20:51

and asked if I was okay

1:20:53

and how she knew Grant's work

1:20:55

and how wonderful it was and

1:20:58

she knew he was like popular,

1:21:00

a really nice person and people

1:21:02

really valued him. And I really

1:21:04

appreciated that because otherwise she could

1:21:06

be pretty tough. The

1:21:09

part that I regret is

1:21:11

it came time for his funeral

1:21:13

and I was getting ready to

1:21:16

go and then I didn't. Maybe

1:21:20

it was laziness

1:21:22

and selfishness or unconsciously,

1:21:25

I just couldn't handle it. I

1:21:27

regret that to this day. Hey,

1:21:37

this is Scott. Did you know

1:21:39

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1:21:50

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