0:00

The concept of guilt is

0:02

an interesting thing to ponder. Sometimes

0:09

it's justified and rational to

0:12

feel guilty. If a young

0:14

child breaks a rule, but doesn't

0:16

want to admit it and get in trouble, the

0:18

look of guilt might be all over their

0:20

face and easy for a parent to read.

0:24

They did something wrong and they know

0:26

it. Adults

0:29

are often the same way. If you

0:31

do something to offend someone, or

0:33

you knowingly break the law, you

0:35

feel guilty because you are

0:37

guilty. But

0:40

sometimes we feel that way even

0:42

if we haven't done anything wrong.

0:46

This is often the case with veterans

0:48

who have been in war. They're

0:51

fighting shoulder to shoulder on the

0:53

front lines, and one day

0:55

their buddy right next to them gets

0:57

shot. One

0:59

person dies and

1:01

the one who gets to go home feels

1:03

intense guilt about that.

1:07

Or it might be a case where a person is

1:09

drowning, and a stranger jumps

1:11

in the water and saves their life, but

1:14

the stranger ends up drowning. The

1:18

person who was saved is left

1:20

to wonder how to deal with the fact

1:22

that they're alive because someone

1:24

else died. My

1:29

guest today is Haley. When

1:31

she was a teenager, she found herself

1:34

in a dangerous situation

1:37

In the end, she was the only

1:39

witness to two people getting

1:41

murdered right in front of her.

1:45

And those two people were killed while

1:47

they were trying to help keep her safe.

1:50

Real

1:55

people in unreal situations.

1:59

There is a girl hanging by

2:02

her broken leg from the telephone

2:04

wire. And I called nine eleven and

2:07

I said, I found a baby. I turned

2:09

around I see a gun pointed

2:11

at me close enough I could touch it.

2:13

She would hold out that's underwater all the time

2:15

and

2:15

levels the gun pulls the trigger. And

2:18

I go down. Her eyes were

2:20

full of tears. She didn't wanna

2:22

leave us. My hair catches on

2:24

fire. I swear to god, this is this image

2:26

is burning my head rest my life. I'm

2:31

Scott Johnson, and this

2:33

is what was that like.

2:43

You were a teenager when this happened, Are

2:45

you were you kind of a rules follower,

2:48

or were you more like a rebellious teenager?

2:53

Short answer, I was pretty rebellious

2:55

at the time. To

2:57

be honest with you, I hated

2:59

my teenage years. I absolutely

3:02

hated him. And the only thing that really helped

3:04

I feel like at the time was just

3:06

partying, you know, drinking,

3:09

and And that's the only

3:11

way that I could really have

3:13

any kind of enjoyment. How

3:15

old were you when this happened? I

3:17

was seventeen. I know there

3:19

were multiple people involved in

3:21

this situation. Who was there

3:23

or who was part of this? It

3:26

was my sister, Holly, and

3:28

her fiance, Johnny, and then they

3:30

had two roommates, Robert

3:32

and Robin. So there were four

3:34

people living in the house And

3:37

and then there were a few other people that

3:39

came into the story a little later.

3:41

We've got Virgil, who's

3:43

a friend of Robert, and

3:46

Forest was Virgil's cousin, and

3:48

then Gary was a neighbor. So

3:51

a lot of names to keep track of here, but

3:53

we'll we'll mention them as they as

3:55

they come in as part of the story. So,

3:58

Holly and Johnny, your sister

4:00

and and her fiance, We're

4:02

having a fourth of July party at

4:04

their house, but it really started kind

4:06

of the day before. Correct.

4:08

What happened on the third? July

4:11

the third? Well, I had

4:13

gone over there and ended

4:15

up staying the night. It's

4:17

typical fourth of July celebration. You

4:20

start shooting fireworks on the

4:22

third, and it carries on through that,

4:24

you know, that weekend. Usually, I

4:27

have been over at their house just

4:29

partying drinking? And

4:32

so the the next morning,

4:34

late morning or midday, the

4:37

group started drinking again. Yeah.

4:40

It was almost as soon as, you

4:42

know, everybody had gotten up and

4:44

was getting around eating breakfast,

4:46

you know, and and then

4:48

out came the beer at the

4:51

time it was just two point

4:53

beer. So, you know, it

4:55

was like water or we were

4:57

drinking it like water? And then

5:00

Virgil and Forrest showed up probably

5:03

between ten and noon

5:05

And again, Virgil is a friend of one of

5:07

the roommates, Robert. So

5:10

they were just coming over to to join

5:12

the party. Correct. Somebody

5:15

I think it was Robert, had a friend who

5:17

lived in some apartments and that, you

5:19

know, invited us over to go swimming.

5:22

However, we were

5:24

told to leave from the management because

5:27

Virgil was so belligerent. He

5:29

was stowing lawn chairs

5:31

into the swimming pool and just

5:33

causing all kinds of chaos. And

5:35

we were trying to calm him down

5:38

So he was the one that really made me

5:40

the most uneasy at the time.

5:42

So you're in a group. Obviously,

5:44

you know your sister and her fiance

5:48

how well did you know these other people?

5:50

Well, I didn't know Robert for that

5:52

long. Robin, I had

5:54

gone out with on a date

5:57

kind of sorta set up by Johnny.

5:59

And then I believe they worked together

6:02

at a glass company. I

6:05

probably knew them

6:07

for a couple of months.

6:09

So not close friends, but sort

6:11

of acquaintances. Right. Right.

6:15

We went back to the house. They

6:18

were sitting around the dining

6:20

room table, playing cards, drinking

6:22

beer for a little while. I

6:24

know later that evening, we had made

6:26

plans to go down to Riverside

6:29

Drive, which runs alongside the

6:31

Arkansas here in Tulsa.

6:33

We were gonna watch the fireworks

6:35

show from there. My

6:38

mom had dropped my brother off

6:41

and he was six years old at the time.

6:43

So we were babysitting

6:45

him. We

6:47

ate dinner at some point.

6:49

We

6:50

were going to watch a fireworks show

6:52

that they have, like, every year.

6:55

And so I I

6:57

remember we were fighting

7:00

to find a place to park We

7:02

ended up standing on

7:04

a sidewalk along some apartments, and

7:07

there were just so many people down

7:09

there, you know, to watch a fireworks show.

7:13

Forrest had picked up my brother at

7:15

one time and put him up on his shoulders.

7:18

Even as we were leaving the

7:20

event, I remember him

7:22

carrying my brother on his shoulders.

7:25

When your mom dropped your little brother

7:27

off, like you said, he's only six years old,

7:29

you think she had any concerns

7:31

about the group that she was

7:33

kind of entrusting your little brother too

7:36

with the drinking and drugs and

7:38

stuff like that, all that was going on at that time?

7:40

Or did she know about it? I think

7:42

she knew that we had been

7:44

drinking beer. She didn't think that I

7:46

was. Of course, you know. She probably

7:48

knew, but I'm just trying to hide

7:50

it. Because I was underage. So

7:53

I think my sister convinced her

7:55

that everything was okay

7:58

there. I

8:01

think there might have been some fireworks

8:04

that we shot off there for a

8:06

little bit But for the most part,

8:08

everybody was kind of winding down.

8:10

We had been drinking since

8:12

noon, so everybody was getting kind of

8:14

tired and was somewhere between

8:17

eleven and midnight at night.

8:20

Gary showed up at some point

8:22

after we had gotten back from the firework

8:24

show. And he's a a nearby neighbor.

8:27

Yeah. He lived up the street at some apartments.

8:30

And we talked for a little bit,

8:33

and then I

8:36

agreed to run up to the corner

8:38

store with him and get some some

8:40

more beer. So we

8:42

bought beer, But instead of

8:44

going back to my sister's house, we went

8:46

to his apartment. We ended

8:48

up just sitting around talking at his

8:50

apartment for a little bit. And then I told him, you know, I was

8:52

getting kind tired. I wanna go back

8:54

to my sister's house and

8:56

make sure everything was okay. For some

8:58

reason, I felt you know, responsible

9:01

for anything that might

9:03

have happened if they went to bed or whatever.

9:05

Was your little brother still

9:07

there? No. Sorry.

9:09

We dropped him off

9:11

at my mom's house

9:13

on the way back to my my

9:15

sister's

9:15

house, Holly's house. Yeah.

9:18

Pretty late night for a six year old.

9:19

Yeah. And it was by the time we

9:22

got out of the traffic and

9:24

everything pretty close to

9:26

to midnight, so we had

9:28

dropped him off already.

9:31

We went back to the house. Whenever

9:33

I walked in, I

9:35

noticed that Robert was asleep on the

9:37

couch right next to the front door,

9:40

and then Forest was setting up.

9:42

But there was no sign of his cousin,

9:44

Virgil. Someone

9:47

asked, like, where's Virgil?

9:49

And he said he took

9:50

off, he was tired, And

9:52

I thought it was kind of odd that he

9:54

would stick around after,

9:56

you know, him

9:59

not really, I mean, meeting everybody for

10:01

the first day. Although we did spend,

10:03

like, the entire day with

10:06

him, I was, like, you don't

10:08

really know anybody here. His

10:10

connection to the group has left.

10:12

Have sinus. Yeah. That does seem a little

10:14

awkward. Yeah. Yeah.

10:17

But I I think you're just

10:19

kinda trusting, you

10:21

know, that he's not

10:23

shady. And

10:25

so we me,

10:27

Gary, and Forrest, set over

10:29

the dining room table, which

10:31

was just off of the living room, of course.

10:33

And we said they're talking

10:36

at one point, Robert got up from

10:38

the couch and went to his room.

10:40

And then we were laughing

10:44

loud because I know Johnny

10:46

asked us to keep it down at

10:48

one point. And Gary

10:51

at some point mentioned going

10:53

to Keystone Lake And I thought

10:56

this is not a good time to be at

10:58

Keystone Lake in the middle of the, you

11:00

know, morning. How far away

11:02

was Keystone Lake? And why would he wanna

11:04

go there? It was

11:06

in West Tulsa, and so

11:08

it was probably a good

11:10

thirty minute drive out if

11:12

not more from where we

11:14

were. And, yeah, again,

11:17

I thought it was kind of odd that he would mention

11:19

that hindsight

11:22

I believe that he was trying to get us

11:24

out without causing

11:26

too much suspicion because

11:29

through the conversation that we were having.

11:32

And, you know, I didn't think anything of it at

11:34

the time that it that

11:36

forest would take me off

11:39

kinda separate me from Gary. And

11:42

he would say stuff like, you know,

11:44

I feel really close to you. I feel

11:46

like we're connecting you're

11:48

you're like a sister to me.

11:51

And I just figured, okay, you're drunk.

11:53

Go home. You know? And

11:55

I would just kinda yeah. Yeah. You

11:57

know, and and try to walk away

11:59

real smooth. He

12:01

tried kissing me a few times and I'd turn

12:03

my head or you know, kind of

12:05

leaned back away from him, not

12:07

letting allowing that connection as

12:10

it got later and later. I I know

12:12

that Gary was picking up on his odd

12:15

behavior. And

12:17

he kind of waited for Forrest

12:19

to walk away. And

12:21

he said, I really think that you need

12:23

to come to my apartment and stay

12:25

because it's not I don't

12:27

feel you're safe with him here.

12:30

And Right. Because Gary was

12:32

probably thinking about leaving anyway,

12:34

right? Because he lived nearby. Yeah.

12:37

I mean, the sun was coming up at this

12:39

time. We'd been up all night.

12:42

We had kinda quit drinking throughout

12:44

the conversation. And so

12:46

I was tired. I'd been up all

12:48

night. I was really tired. And

12:51

I thought, well, okay. If this

12:53

if this solves the problem and gets me

12:55

in, you know, some

12:56

sleep, will do it. And

12:58

were you comfortable with Gary

13:00

going and sleeping at his house?

13:02

Or were there any implications in

13:05

that offer?

13:06

He said that I

13:08

could crash on his bed. He would sleep on the

13:10

couch. There was nothing that he expected

13:12

out of this. Now,

13:14

but again, he just reassured me. He said,

13:16

I really don't feel safe leading

13:18

you here with with this guy

13:21

because his odd behavior.

13:24

So I felt safer with him

13:26

and the fact that he was looking out for

13:28

me, then what

13:30

I would have, you know, staying

13:33

there. Yeah. You're both kinda creeped out by

13:35

this third guy. Yeah. I mean, we were

13:37

having a good time. And then all of a sudden, it

13:39

just started getting weird So as

13:43

as we were getting ready to leave,

13:45

I was facing

13:47

Gary. Gary's back was against

13:49

the front room, the

13:51

front door. And

13:53

all I noticed was Forest coming up

13:55

behind him. And then all of a sudden,

13:57

he swung his arm up over his

13:59

head. And I

14:01

thought, what is he got? And

14:03

about, you know, the time that I'm

14:05

thinking this he's

14:07

bringing this hammer down on the back

14:09

of Gary's head,

14:13

then just real quickly,

14:15

he just does it down on the table,

14:18

grabs the hold of me by the neck,

14:20

and takes me around the

14:22

corner into a very small

14:24

kitchen. I mean, my mind

14:26

just disconnected as

14:28

soon as he hit

14:30

Gary and Gary just crumbled to

14:32

the floor. I I

14:35

couldn't think. I don't think I had a

14:37

thought. My mind just went

14:39

blank. I I

14:41

just kept on saying, you

14:44

hurt Gary. We need to check on Gary

14:46

as he's taken me around

14:48

the corner. At that

14:50

point, I thought I've I've gotta get away

14:52

from this. And I thought

14:54

if I could get him to focus on

14:56

Gary, that he would let me

14:58

go. And, you

15:00

know, for some strange reason,

15:02

I

15:03

you know, not thinking logically

15:05

I thought that he would care.

15:08

You know? I thought that he would

15:10

he would want to check on Gary.

15:12

Well, it it seems like it it's something

15:14

that just happened so quickly

15:16

and unexpectedly. It did.

15:18

That you you didn't have time to

15:20

process everything. Yeah.

15:23

And I think I just kinda

15:25

detached at that

15:27

point, but I must

15:29

have been yelling he

15:31

punched me a few times on

15:33

the left side of my face. He had me

15:35

pressed up against his counter,

15:38

and he held

15:40

this knife up to my face, which

15:43

he got out of a butcher block that was

15:46

right next to us. Pulled this

15:48

knife out, held it up to my face,

15:50

and said I want you. And then

15:52

he said it down on the counter

15:54

and just slug me a few times

15:56

in the face and I

15:58

kept, you know, I was yelling at that

16:00

point. I remember saying

16:03

something but the words

16:05

were incoherent as to

16:07

it, you know, like my brain and my mouth

16:09

weren't connecting. Why does

16:11

he started to take his third

16:13

swing, Johnny walked

16:15

around the corner, and

16:17

I thought, okay. Everything's okay.

16:21

And he grabs for

16:23

us by the arm. And the

16:25

last words that Johnny spoke was,

16:27

hey, man, be cool. As

16:30

he was grabbing his

16:32

arm for us, brought his hand

16:34

down, grabbed the knife, and then

16:36

just stabbed Johnny in

16:38

one motion. And

16:41

it went in so deep. I didn't

16:43

even see the blade

16:44

anymore. All I saw was the handle.

16:46

And so I really didn't know the

16:48

extent

16:49

because it didn't make sense what I was

16:52

saying, and then he just

16:54

slid it across his midsection. And

16:56

at that point, Johnny

17:00

jerked his hand and pushed

17:03

forest, and then he just

17:05

grabbed his stomach and went out the kitchen

17:07

door. You

17:10

know, at that point, mind was like,

17:12

get away. And so with,

17:14

I guess, the adrenaline

17:17

everything that I had, I pushed

17:19

forest off of me. How big

17:21

of a guy was

17:23

forest? Forest was over

17:25

six foot and close to three hundred

17:27

pounds, if not, three hundred pounds.

17:29

I mean, he was a big guy.

17:33

I think it was desperation, and

17:35

I knew that Gary was hurt.

17:38

And Johnny was

17:40

hurt. So I just followed the

17:42

path that I figured,

17:44

you know, Johnny went. And

17:47

whenever I ran out of the kitchen, I

17:49

ran, you know, directly

17:51

into the front room past

17:53

Robert. Robert was standing outside

17:55

his bedroom door

17:57

at the

17:58

time. Because of the commotion, you know?

18:01

And I saw

18:03

Johnny Ling on Robert's

18:04

bed, and so I

18:07

grabbed Johnny by

18:08

his hand, and I yanked him into the

18:10

bathroom, which was joined between

18:12

the two bedrooms. My Johnny

18:15

and Hollies bedroom on one side, and

18:17

then Robert on the other. And so I

18:19

locked both both bathroom

18:21

doors with these little

18:23

hooks. And

18:25

I popped Johnny

18:27

up on the toilet and just cradled

18:29

his head in my hand saying it's

18:31

gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay.

18:34

I kept assuring him.

18:36

I was trying to assure myself,

18:38

I think, too, that everything was

18:40

gonna be okay. And I

18:42

can remember looking down at

18:45

Johnny's stomach and

18:47

his his intestines were

18:49

out of his stomach.

18:52

And I thought if I just put, you know,

18:54

push them back in, that

18:57

would make him, you know,

18:59

better. I mean, that it

19:01

would be better. It sounds like for

19:03

all that's happened, you sort

19:05

of had a continued

19:08

sense of denial like,

19:10

if if we just do this, it's all gonna

19:12

be okay. Yes.

19:14

I was in complete shock.

19:16

But, yeah, denial was, like, I

19:18

was trying to

19:20

minimize everything that

19:23

happened. You know, my mind was,

19:25

I think, trying

19:26

to reason, but at the same

19:29

time, like, minimize what

19:31

was going on so that

19:33

I, you know, I

19:36

could make sense of it, I

19:38

guess. So you're trying to

19:40

hold his intestines in?

19:43

Yes. I was trying to push him back in

19:45

his stomach and then

19:47

my sister came and knocked at

19:49

her side of the

19:50

bathroom. You know, she was in

19:52

her room. And she knocked at the

19:55

door and she

19:57

said something to me and I said,

19:59

well, four is still out

20:01

there. We were whispering through

20:03

the door, and she said, no, he's

20:06

gone. And so I let her

20:08

in and I went out And

20:10

then at that time, my

20:13

dog started following

20:15

me around the

20:16

house. I picked up

20:19

the hammer.

20:19

And I was angry. And I

20:21

was also afraid that forest

20:23

was still around. And

20:27

so I know Robert had been on the phone

20:29

calling the police, and

20:31

I I went out

20:33

on the front porch. And I

20:35

was like, looking, I could hear the

20:38

sirens, but there was no sign. And

20:40

these people that were walking up the

20:42

sidewalk, I was like, Where's the police?

20:44

Where's the police? And they

20:46

just looked at me like, we

20:48

don't know. I mean,

20:50

it was they had no

20:52

clue what just happened in that

20:54

house. And so

20:56

I I went back in and

20:58

I was still, like,

21:00

I checked the door to see if I could

21:02

see forest. The back

21:05

door had been opened. Well,

21:07

the inside door was standing open and,

21:09

you know, the screen door, it looked

21:11

like, had been hit or

21:14

something. It was cracked. And

21:17

so I went back through the house

21:20

and the police finally arrived. And

21:22

whenever they came in, they said, ma'am, you're

21:24

gonna have to put the hammer down.

21:26

And so I I remember putting the

21:28

hammer down, and I went over and I

21:30

I shook Gary, and

21:32

I was like, Gary, Gary, get

21:34

up. And the policeman that was standing

21:37

beside him

21:38

said, ma'am, you can't do anything

21:40

to help him.

21:42

I know that Gary was on his side

21:44

whenever I shook him, and he just

21:46

kinda rolled over to his back.

21:49

And his eyes went up to the back of his head.

21:51

And I remember seeing

21:53

the puddle of blood that was beside

21:56

his head as I got

21:58

up. But again, it

22:00

wasn't alarming. I

22:02

mean, I think at that time, I had

22:04

just detached from all

22:06

all feelings, all

22:09

emotions. Like, I was freaking out,

22:11

I was mad, I was raging, but I

22:13

hadn't had really a time

22:15

process it. If

22:18

you haven't checked

22:20

out the compulsive storyteller

22:23

podcast yet, What are you waiting

22:25

for? I subscribed to the show a

22:27

while back as soon as I discovered it.

22:29

Since then, I've gotten to know the host,

22:32

Greg Lefebvre. And he's not just a wonderful

22:34

person, he's also a great storyteller.

22:36

We're a good match. He loves to tell

22:38

stories and I love to listen to

22:41

them. Greg tells a short personal story in

22:43

every episode about something that

22:45

actually happened in his

22:47

life. And he just has to tell someone.

22:49

He has to get it out there. In

22:51

fact, his therapist once told him that his storytelling isn't

22:54

just an interest. With

22:56

Greg, it's a compulsion. A

22:58

compulsion to connect with other people through

23:01

stories. That's why he chose to name the

23:03

podcast, the compulsive storyteller.

23:06

I really enjoyed a recent episode which was

23:08

called Movers Lament. This was

23:10

about the time Greg and his girlfriend decided

23:12

to start a moving business

23:15

But some of the jobs they hired for were kind

23:17

of wacky, and eventually they were thinking,

23:19

is this really worth what were

23:22

being paid? The episodes are just five to

23:24

twenty minutes long and you can go back

23:26

into the back catalog and pick a title to

23:28

start with. But also, make sure

23:30

you subscribe scribe so you get all the new

23:32

episodes as soon as they come out.

23:34

That's what I do, so I always get the newest

23:36

one when it gets released. You

23:38

can find it on any podcast app including

23:41

Spotify. Just search for the

23:43

compulsive storyteller, or just

23:45

visit the website the compulsive

23:47

storyteller dot com. And

23:49

thanks to the compulsive storyteller

23:51

podcast for sponsoring this episode.

23:58

Police said, ma'am, you're gonna have to pick your dog

24:00

up because every time you

24:02

know, I was pacing back and forth. And

24:04

every time we went by one of the police

24:06

officers, my dog would growl at him, but

24:08

he stayed right by my

24:10

side. And so I I off

24:12

in Holly's room.

24:14

They told my sister,

24:17

you're gonna have to calm her

24:19

down. So she got me and she

24:21

said, we need to come over here and sit down

24:23

for a minute.

24:24

I was just really upset

24:28

cringing a most. I mean, if that

24:30

makes sense. The

24:33

police wanted to take us downtown to

24:35

get statements And

24:37

so it was Robert Holly

24:40

and myself loaded us

24:42

up in the police

24:43

car while we were sitting in the police

24:46

car, they were loading they

24:48

brought Johnny out and loaded him up in

24:50

the

24:50

ambulance, but they had to get him stable

24:54

before they could move

24:55

him. I don't know what that meant at

24:58

the time because I I don't

25:00

think he was ever stable. But

25:02

he went to Hillcrest Hospital,

25:05

and we went downtown to

25:07

to give police reports.

25:11

I was the main witness that

25:13

saw everything.

25:15

I was involved in everything.

25:17

I kept on getting Gary's

25:20

name wrong, kept on calling him

25:22

Carrie or maybe that's what they heard

25:24

because, again, I was so

25:26

hysterical. Yeah. You're I can't imagine your

25:28

state of mind at that time. I mean,

25:31

you were running on adrenaline, I'm

25:34

sure, for a certain amount of time, and you had no

25:36

sleep at all that night. And now you've

25:38

gotta try to remember everything

25:40

for a police statement. That's just

25:42

gotta be so stressful.

25:45

Right. And again, like, my mind had

25:47

just that's the only way that I can

25:49

describe it is that I

25:51

detached my mind quit working.

25:53

So my thought process,

25:55

it just felt like I I

25:57

was just one step

25:59

behind everything. Like, I I, you know,

26:02

And it came out later, like,

26:04

from the police station, they took

26:06

his home, and I got a

26:08

little bit of sleep. But

26:11

my sister woke me

26:13

up to go and see Johnny in

26:15

the hospital. And when

26:17

we were sitting in the hospital, we

26:20

were kind of talking over a little

26:22

bit of what happened then

26:25

and she had made a comment to

26:27

me. And, you know, we were getting a lot of

26:29

the information of what was going on

26:31

with Johnny second

26:32

hand, like they would tell his mom and then

26:35

she would tell us.

26:36

So by some we had gotten there,

26:39

he had already been through

26:41

surgery. In fact, I think he was

26:43

still in surgery. And my sister

26:45

had made a comment. She

26:47

said, well, if you hadn't moved him,

26:50

off of the bed, he wouldn't have lost as

26:52

much blood. And

26:55

so that kind of stuck with me

26:57

as like it was my fault

27:00

that he was losing blood. We

27:03

started comparing what had

27:05

taken place. And whenever I had

27:07

ran out of the

27:07

kitchen, I ran past my sister like

27:10

she was standing right at the doorway and

27:12

I said I didn't see you. I

27:14

don't remember running past

27:17

her but she said I was standing

27:19

right there and then Forest came to

27:21

the doorway and still had the

27:23

knife in his hand. And she

27:25

said he was talking to the

27:27

knife. And he said, I told you not to

27:29

mess with me. And then she said,

27:31

he just turned around and went out the back

27:34

door. Honestly, I

27:36

vaguely remember running Pest Robert.

27:38

And so I feel like at the

27:40

time, I was just like,

27:42

my mind not catch up with everything that

27:45

had taken place. Everything

27:48

was so surreal. I

27:50

was in a haze. It seemed like for the

27:53

next week, just

27:55

trying to make this

27:58

a reality. So Gary

28:01

died at the scene. Is that

28:03

right? Correct. The other

28:05

kind of odd aspect

28:07

of this is that there was still

28:09

another person in the house,

28:11

which is the other roommate,

28:14

Robin, and he slept through the

28:16

whole thing. When did he

28:18

realize, like, did he just walk

28:20

out his door and there's a house full

28:22

of police in a crime

28:24

scene? Yeah. In

28:26

fact, we had actually forgot about

28:29

Robin. I mean, you know,

28:31

everything that had gone on,

28:33

we didn't realized that he was still

28:35

up there or that he was up there because he

28:37

lived off of the dining room

28:39

of some stairs in,

28:41

like, a second floor room, and

28:44

he had his own bathroom up

28:46

there, I believe. We had

28:49

forgot that he was up there whenever

28:51

the police took us.

28:54

And so from

28:56

his account, he had come down the

28:58

stairs and opened the door in a house

29:00

full of policeman and

29:02

investigators. And

29:05

so I remember watching it on the

29:07

news. He got so upset

29:10

because the the news

29:12

report was him being

29:14

brought out of the house escorted

29:16

by police and put into a police

29:18

car, and it looked like he

29:20

was the one that did it. You know?

29:22

And so I remember him being

29:24

upset about that. What a way

29:26

to wake up?

29:28

Yeah. One of the things you found

29:30

out later was that at the

29:32

time of the attack, you

29:35

were pregnant.

29:36

Yes. I had started

29:40

having symptoms, can

29:42

figure out what was going on. And

29:44

I thought, you know, somebody,

29:47

I I believe it was my mom at the

29:49

time, said something about, you

29:51

know, stress

29:54

from this

29:54

incident. So she took me to

29:57

her doctor,

29:59

and I found out Ben

30:01

that I was pregnant

30:03

And I I was probably

30:06

about three months maybe,

30:09

so it made that

30:11

you

30:11

know, that Johnny saved this baby

30:14

and didn't even know it. And you

30:15

didn't even know it at the

30:18

time? Yeah. I didn't. I

30:20

had had just a a brief

30:23

relationship with this person.

30:25

His name is David.

30:28

And I wasn't real

30:30

crazy about the guy. It was

30:32

just a fluke thing, but

30:35

whenever I found out I was pregnant, I

30:38

thought that, you know, I had to have this

30:40

baby. I mean, Johnny saved this baby.

30:42

He saved me, and he's

30:44

saved the baby. I mean, it was my mindset

30:46

at the time. My

30:49

mom asked me, like,

30:51

what are you gonna do? I

30:53

mean, she gave me very

30:55

little support and no options.

30:57

And so the only thing that I

31:00

saw doing was, well, I need to tell the dad

31:02

that he's gonna be a dad and

31:05

go from there. I think

31:07

at the time, I was dealing

31:10

with the PTSD. Unfortunately,

31:12

there wasn't a name for it

31:14

at the time. No

31:17

one really consulted or or

31:20

talked to me about seeking

31:23

help. I think any

31:25

kind of counseling at that time was for people

31:28

who could afford it out of pocket

31:30

expense because it wasn't really covered

31:32

by the insurance. I didn't have

31:34

insurance. I was dealing with

31:36

a lot of things that no

31:38

one would really talk to me about.

31:40

My mom had asked me

31:43

at some point, you know, exactly

31:45

what had happened. And I don't know that I

31:47

was really ready to talk about it with

31:50

anybody, but I gave her,

31:52

you know, kind of

31:54

a summary of of what

31:56

had taken place. And her

31:59

comment at the time was, well, if

32:01

you'd come home with me, this would not have

32:03

taken place. It wouldn't

32:05

have happened. And then

32:07

she just kind of, you know, made

32:09

this motion with her

32:11

hand and, like, oh,

32:13

well, what is done is done. It

32:15

seemed like people wanted

32:18

to talk about it less and less.

32:20

You know? Maybe they saw that

32:22

it upset me somehow

32:25

but I just didn't get a lot

32:27

of support. At a time

32:29

when you really needed it. Yeah.

32:33

I mean, you were dealing with a

32:35

lot of stuff, not to mention

32:37

the fact that Forest

32:39

was still out there. Right? He hadn't

32:41

been caught right away, and you were the only

32:44

witness that would be able to testify

32:46

that you saw what he

32:47

did. Correct.

32:49

I was so hyper vigilant. It's

32:53

not even funny. I was

32:54

I got to where I was afraid to leave

32:57

my house. And if

32:59

I did, it was, you

33:01

know, constantly checking over my shoulder.

33:03

It wasn't too long

33:05

after that that I moved out

33:08

of my mom's house to move in

33:11

with David. When I

33:13

told him I was pregnant, he

33:15

assured me, well, we'll just have

33:18

this baby, and we'll take good care of it,

33:20

and we'll raise it together, and, you

33:22

know, everything will just be peachy

33:25

king. And this probably

33:27

wasn't his words, but I

33:29

just felt like I was just

33:31

following along with whatever

33:33

I could feel

33:35

good about at the

33:35

time. Like, okay, that sounds

33:37

good. We'll we'll have this baby. But it

33:40

was a very toxic

33:42

relationship And I think it

33:44

just heightened the anxiety

33:48

that I was experiencing at the

33:50

time. He was not a very

33:51

compassionate person?

33:54

How long before Forest

33:57

was actually found

33:59

It was early nineteen

34:02

eighty eight. We got word that

34:04

he had been in

34:06

jail in Virginia. Funny

34:09

thing about this was that it had aired on

34:11

America's most wanted. I

34:13

guess it was

34:15

the end of eighty

34:18

seven because

34:18

it was, you know, still

34:21

a manhunt for this person. For

34:24

forest. And so early

34:26

nineteen eighty

34:26

eight, we got word that he

34:28

had been found in Virginia and that

34:31

they were holding him in

34:33

jail So this was two years

34:35

later.

34:35

Yeah. Two years later, and

34:38

I was a mom, and I was trying to

34:40

deal with figuring out

34:42

how to be a mom

34:44

and how to deal with

34:46

PTSD. And

34:48

again, didn't know everything that I was going through at the time,

34:51

the irritation, the

34:53

irritability, the anger, the

34:56

rage, the hyper vigilance,

34:58

everything was a symptom

35:01

of PTSD. And

35:03

the person that I

35:05

was he loved to argue. And so

35:07

that's why I say it was a

35:10

very bad toxic relationship.

35:12

First of all, I don't

35:15

think I was in the right mindset to

35:17

to have a baby, to

35:20

try to be raising this

35:22

child in a

35:24

healthy

35:24

environment. Along with

35:26

somebody who fought and argued

35:30

constantly.

35:30

Now, two years after right

35:33

before my daughter turned to, they started

35:35

well, they had subpoenaed

35:38

me to

35:39

start these proceedings

35:42

they were going to extradite him back sometime in

35:45

July.

35:45

So it it was most of

35:48

eighty eight

35:50

that was dealing with this rehatching of,

35:52

you know, this event? Obviously,

35:54

he was charged with murder.

35:58

Yes. Two counts of murder.

36:00

And how did he plead?

36:02

Well, he had pleaded guilty.

36:04

In fact, one of the news

36:07

articles, his defense, was nobody saying that he did

36:09

not do it. He admitted

36:11

to killing the two

36:14

people, but his

36:16

defense was that, well,

36:18

first of all, they tried to say it was due

36:20

to all the drinking and

36:22

alcohol and drugs that

36:24

were involved.

36:24

I remember

36:25

them wanting to shut that down really

36:28

quick because the prosecuting

36:30

attorney had said that he

36:32

had made

36:34

you know, a bull's eye with both victims accurately.

36:37

I mean, he hit with the

36:39

hammer and stabbed with the

36:41

knife, and there was

36:43

contacts with both times, but

36:45

they also tried to say that

36:48

he could contribute to

36:50

society and

36:52

his art. In his

36:54

poem writing. So those were

36:56

the two defenses that he was going

36:58

on. Both sound pretty

37:00

weak. Yeah. Did you find

37:02

yourself in a courtroom

37:04

with forest being in the same

37:06

room? Yes.

37:08

When I had to give

37:10

I think it was for the hearing that

37:14

they brought him into

37:16

the courtroom me

37:19

and my sister were setting side by side, holding hands,

37:21

like I gripped her

37:23

hand so hard. Whenever

37:26

I saw him, I noticed

37:28

that he had lost a lot

37:30

of weight. Like, he was down

37:33

under two hundred pounds. It

37:35

was shocking to see that.

37:38

That was one of the things

37:40

the attorney had told me was

37:42

that we're gonna

37:44

have to remind the jurors of his weight loss and

37:46

how big he was. So that was one of

37:48

the things that I

37:50

had to because

37:52

this little man could not press me

37:54

against a counter like that and

37:56

then proceed to stab

37:58

somebody too. Yeah. Being on

38:00

the run, looking over your

38:02

shoulder for two years,

38:04

that's gotta be I mean, I'm sure a lot

38:06

of that weight loss was just from the

38:08

stress. You do lose weight on the run. That's for sure.

38:10

You found out more about him.

38:12

Right? During the trial, yes.

38:17

One of the things that they had pictures

38:20

of was knives that

38:23

he had put in the furniture. Like, they had

38:25

a cushion raised up and they had a picture of

38:27

a knife that he had planted in

38:30

the couch. In

38:32

which Robert was sleeping on. There was

38:35

other knives that they had

38:37

taken pictures of like strategically

38:40

placed around the front room. And

38:42

this wasn't even his house. Right.

38:45

Did he do that

38:48

without anyone noticing? I guess when everybody when

38:50

me and Gary had left to the

38:52

store, he

38:55

started doing this as people were going

38:57

to bed because Holly and Johnny went

38:59

to bed shortly after

39:02

me and Gary had left to the store to get

39:04

beer

39:05

And, you know, Robert was passed out on the

39:08

couch. Robin was upstairs in

39:10

his room.

39:10

Yeah. He had just taken it

39:13

upon himself. He certainly can't deny

39:15

premeditation when he plants knives all around

39:17

the place. Howard Bauchner: Exactly. That was the

39:19

other thing where with the

39:21

drugs and alcohol, they were

39:23

saying there was no way that he could

39:26

plan this out, you know, that it

39:28

could be premeditated. So And

39:30

he had been in

39:31

prison before he had, and that was the other thing out

39:34

during the trial. Well,

39:36

actually, we found that

39:38

out in the newspaper clippings.

39:42

That he had been in prison

39:44

for the rape of a

39:46

telequal

39:47

woman, and he

39:48

was supposed to be serving a twenty

39:52

year sentence, but he got out on good behavior.

39:54

He was serving a twenty year sentence,

39:56

but how long was he actually in?

40:00

Eight years. How

40:01

long have he been out when you met him?

40:02

Two. He was out for two years. And

40:06

so when we were

40:08

doing the trial, the jury was

40:10

given two options for

40:12

sentencing. They were given

40:15

given life

40:16

which I believe would have

40:19

given him the possibility

40:22

of parole and

40:24

then there was death. So those were the only two

40:26

sentences the judge gave, the

40:28

jurors. There was another sentence

40:34

It was life without possible

40:37

parole. They

40:38

weren't given that because the

40:41

crime had happened before it

40:44

had been voted into

40:45

legislation? The jurors

40:48

thought that there is no way

40:51

we can allow this person

40:53

out on parole

40:55

again due to his

40:58

past record. That he would just

41:00

do it again so they

41:01

had to give him

41:01

death. I had

41:03

to give my testimony

41:06

two times

41:08

the the preliminary and the actual

41:10

hearing in front of the jury.

41:13

And I could

41:16

not make eye contact at all with

41:17

Forrest. I had to sit there with my

41:19

head down. I can

41:21

look at him. So he

41:23

was sentenced to death.

41:25

Yes. And

41:26

I thought

41:27

it was the end.

41:28

I thought I gave

41:31

Johnny justice, and he was going

41:33

to serve his consequence,

41:36

and that would be that.

41:40

So I was just from trying to my life back

41:43

in order the best that

41:45

I could. And

41:48

then they contacted

41:50

us again, and they

41:52

said that they had ordered a

41:55

rehearing, a retrial, Because of the sentence that

41:58

the judge at the time did not

42:00

give the jury, that was

42:02

his first appeal

42:04

was that they found that

42:06

technicality and

42:08

they had contacted me and I

42:10

went down and talked to him And

42:12

they

42:13

said, we just need your testimony. the only one

42:15

that matters. And I just

42:17

can't do it.

42:21

This is Justin,

42:25

host of obscura,

42:28

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Obscura True Crime and you

43:37

can't miss our logo. I

43:45

had

43:48

had another baby. So I was a

43:50

mom of two and

43:52

I was just trying to get my life back into

43:54

order and I just didn't think that I could

43:58

remember everything that was crucial at

44:00

the time. I had

44:02

started repressing a

44:04

lot of you know, the

44:06

memories of it, you know,

44:08

and So you just declined

44:10

to testify? I declined to

44:12

testify and and

44:14

he did get removed from the death

44:16

penalty, and they gave him life

44:18

without possible

44:19

parole. So he's still in prison

44:21

today? He's still in

44:24

prison. It strikes me as, you know, you had

44:27

Holly had commented that

44:29

Johnny lost more blood

44:31

because you moved him And

44:33

your mom reminded you that you should have gone home

44:35

with her that night and none of this would

44:37

have happened. But on top

44:40

of that, What about

44:42

survivor's guilt? I mean, these

44:44

two people that were murdered were

44:46

just trying to help you all

44:49

of that guilt must have just

44:51

been

44:51

crushing. It played a big

44:54

part

44:56

and how I moved forward.

44:58

I I carried a

45:00

very very heavy load of

45:03

of guilt and time,

45:06

you know, I thought about the

45:08

fact that he saved this baby

45:11

without even knowing it. It

45:14

seems so irrational for

45:16

the fact that I just hated

45:18

life so much at that time.

45:21

But yet they saved my

45:24

life for some reason. I

45:26

just

45:27

couldn't understand why

45:29

I was able to walk away

45:31

and they weren't. This was

45:34

obviously an extremely

45:36

traumatic event did you ever

45:38

get counseling that helped

45:40

you process that? I did

45:42

not. I

45:46

I

45:49

think whenever I was

45:51

going through my

45:53

divorce, I went to counseling for that

45:56

because I felt like a lot

45:58

of what I was dealing

46:00

with at that time was because

46:02

of the

46:03

divorce. And I just briefly mentioned this

46:06

as, like,

46:08

this is

46:09

something that happened to me in my

46:11

past and that my counselor at the

46:14

time never touched base on

46:16

it. So

46:18

I had developed a lot of

46:21

anxiety and

46:22

depression, poor

46:26

coping skills which led

46:28

to bad decisions

46:29

and everything down the

46:32

down the line. But

46:35

I never got counseling for

46:37

it? As we speak now,

46:39

we're toward the end of

46:41

twenty twenty two. How do you

46:43

feel like you're doing

46:46

now? Well,

46:50

I know that time isn't

46:51

always a healer.

46:54

And

46:55

if you

46:58

Well, for me,

47:01

not dealing with

47:04

something is

47:06

probably just as bad.

47:11

As going through it

47:14

almost. Because

47:16

whenever it does resurface, it seems like

47:18

it resurface with

47:19

vengeance. There's a

47:20

there's a lot that

47:22

I have thought

47:23

about over the last couple

47:26

weeks that

47:28

I hadn't really thought about in

47:30

years. I feel like

47:33

since

47:33

I was able

47:35

to forgive for us early

47:38

on that it has

47:41

helped me move

47:43

on from the trauma

47:45

I never reached out to him,

47:48

and I've never personally

47:50

sent him any acknowledgement

47:54

of forgiveness. But

47:56

in my own heart, I know that

47:58

I can forgive

48:01

that not so much that it releases from

48:04

consequence that he

48:06

has

48:06

to deal with. It it didn't take

48:09

away his punishment.

48:12

But it gave me peace. I

48:14

can only say

48:15

that I found that because

48:18

of I I

48:20

know that we are

48:21

in a very broken

48:24

world and that people

48:27

come from circumstances that sometimes

48:29

they have no control

48:32

over. One of his

48:33

defenses was that he was abused

48:35

by his father.

48:37

And I could

48:40

relate to that. Of course,

48:42

you know, I never wanted to go out

48:44

and kill

48:46

anybody or or hurt anybody, but I think we

48:48

deal with things differently.

48:51

And he had demons

48:53

that he was fighting just

48:55

like me. So I can

48:58

say it was more it

49:00

was more for me that I

49:02

could I could

49:04

justify forgiveness

49:05

for him. When the fourth

49:07

of July comes around now,

49:10

everyone thinks fireworks

49:12

and celebration that what you

49:14

think or does it always take you back

49:16

to that time? It

49:19

well, that was one

49:20

of the things that I felt

49:23

Yeah. always

49:24

it always brings that around.

49:26

And if I

49:27

didn't think about it, I felt bad for not

49:30

thinking about it.

49:32

Because of Gary and

49:34

Johnny losing their lives. And if I

49:36

didn't think about them, then I

49:38

wasn't honoring

49:40

them I

49:41

have found more peace with it lately. I still

49:44

think about it.

49:46

There is a couple of

49:48

July's that went by that it was wasn't

49:50

until, like, the next day that I

49:52

was, like,

49:53

oh, yeah. This marks the anniversary

49:55

of, you know,

49:57

had to do the math when my

50:00

daughter turned a certain age, then it

50:02

was always like, well,

50:04

that was one year marking because

50:06

she was born directly

50:08

after it. So I always

50:10

remembered like

50:12

she turned thirty five this year, so it

50:15

was thirty six years ago. So, yeah,

50:17

it still comes up as a

50:19

memory. It doesn't hold this

50:22

as much weight, but I stick close to the house. I don't

50:25

like to go in large crowds.

50:28

I feel

50:30

okay, celebrating it with my family here,

50:32

but it does have

50:35

some bad memories attached. It's

50:38

not like you're gonna you could ever forget it.

50:41

Right. It it might

50:43

be a little bit easier

50:46

every year, but I still

50:48

have so many symptoms

50:50

that was caused

50:53

from

50:53

that. I'm working through this PTSD

50:56

work and it it just shows

50:58

me everything that I was going

51:00

through that I was dealing with

51:02

at that time. It wasn't because I was a horrible person. It was

51:04

because I had

51:06

experienced this trauma,

51:08

this stress, and, you

51:10

know, I needed help. Everything was a

51:12

cry for help.

51:14

You have mentioned to me that

51:16

people, if they wish to, can contact you by email,

51:18

and we'll have your email address in

51:20

the show notes for this episode.

51:24

Thanks for sharing your story. Well, thank you,

51:26

Scott. Thanks again for listening.

51:32

Haley was eventually able to meet Gary's sister,

51:34

and she told her that Gary

51:36

died trying to protect her.

51:40

If you enjoyed this episode, you might like

51:42

episode sixty two. In

51:44

that one, my guest, Terry, had

51:47

just moved into her new place in New

51:50

Orleans and had only been there for a couple

51:52

of

51:52

hours. Then something

51:55

happened in the street right outside

51:57

her window. I was sitting next to

51:59

a window. So picture, I'm sitting

52:01

in the chair and it's

52:03

next to a window and I

52:06

pull the curtain back

52:08

and I look out the window to the

52:10

side and I see

52:12

this man being hit,

52:14

you know, being assaulted.

52:17

That's episode sixty

52:20

two titled Terry witnessed a

52:22

murder. And if you're someone who

52:24

enjoys actual nine

52:26

eleven calls, The

52:28

newest RAW Audio episode has just been released. This

52:31

is RAW Audio twenty

52:33

nine. And in this one, you'll

52:35

hear about a man who

52:37

gets attacked by his neighbor because of political

52:40

differences. Oh, we're telling him I'm

52:42

a

52:42

one. Where's your emergency?

52:44

My neighbor

52:45

just shot my

52:47

dad.

52:47

Your neighbor shot your

52:50

dad? Yes. A convenient

52:52

store clerk calls because a man

52:54

comes in the store with a gun.

52:57

Can you guys ask me to call the cops? Please walk

52:59

in there once again. Did you know you're calling

53:01

me

53:01

on one? Yeah. He asked me to call. He walked

53:03

behind the counter and asked me to call ask you to

53:06

call us? Yes. And a man calls

53:08

after an early morning argument

53:10

with his

53:10

wife. What's going on

53:14

there? A murder has

53:17

been committed. Oh, a murder

53:19

has been committed by

53:22

who? Funny

53:24

enough. Are you? You

53:26

can get raw audio twenty nine and

53:28

all of the other twenty eight episodes.

53:32

By becoming a supporter of the podcast at five dollars

53:34

a month. So if you wanna support

53:36

the show, you can do that at what

53:38

was that like dot com slash

53:41

support. At the end of this month, I'll

53:43

be in Orlando at the

53:45

podcast multimedia Expo.

53:49

That's January twenty six to

53:51

twenty nine. So if you're a podcaster

53:53

or thinking about a podcast and you're planning

53:55

to be

53:56

there, let me know so we can connect.

53:58

And now we end this episode like

54:00

we do every episode with a listener story.

54:02

If you have a story that's

54:05

interesting and you can tell in

54:07

around five minutes, record it on your

54:09

phone and email it to me

54:11

at Scott at what was that

54:13

like dot com. This week's story

54:15

is from someone who was taken to one of those weird wilderness

54:18

programs for

54:20

kids. Stay safe,

54:22

and I'll see you in just one week

54:24

because I've cooked up a bonus

54:26

episode for one week from today.

54:29

See you then.

54:31

Hi. My name is Shenade.

54:34

I'm thirty three years old. My name is

54:36

spelled SINE eighty. I know

54:38

it's weird. When I

54:40

was seventeen years old, about two thousand

54:42

and seven, two thousand and eight, I was sent

54:44

to a wilderness program for juvenile

54:46

delinquents in Idaho. Was woken up in middle

54:48

of the night about three AM, probably two strange

54:50

people I'd never met before in my life. They

54:52

had handcuffs, they showed me their IDs, and

54:54

they said, hey, you need to come with

54:57

us. And they wouldn't tell me where we were going. So I, you

54:59

know and I didn't know what to do. I really didn't.

55:01

I I asked them all my parents were, and they

55:03

wouldn't tell me. They're just, like, they know your they

55:05

know her year. They let

55:07

us in. And it's like, alright. Whatever.

55:10

So I get in the car with them and

55:12

we go to the airport and we

55:14

fly to Spoke in

55:16

Washington. From there, we drove to

55:18

Bonner's Ferry, Idaho. And like I

55:20

said, I have no idea what's going on this

55:22

whole time. There, I'm strip searched. I've never been strip

55:24

searched before. I've never been to jail. I don't even

55:26

have a felony. So this is all

55:28

very new to me. And I'm I'm

55:30

given a bunch of things

55:32

like a backpack, hiking

55:34

boots, a water bottle, I

55:36

mean, a bunch of stuff. Right

55:39

there, I am shown the community area.

55:41

It it kinda looks like a clock. I don't really

55:43

know how to explain it, but

55:46

it's like you know, at six

55:48

o'clock, you've got the mess hall. At one

55:50

o'clock, you've got the

55:54

four o'clock, whatever. Anyway, there's all these areas around

55:56

the circle. And we sleep

55:58

in tipies. Yes. Actual

56:00

tipies. One for the boys, one

56:03

for the girls. Of the responsibilities that

56:05

we were given, we had to

56:07

clean the outhouse, which was absolutely

56:09

fucking miscuffing. And we also had

56:11

to saw logs And when I say that,

56:13

I mean, like, we actually saw blogs. didn't sleep. The boys would carry

56:15

over these big ass logs from the forest. We didn't

56:17

chop them down or anything, but, you know,

56:20

they would somehow pull them

56:22

all over to the wood cutting

56:24

station and meet a partner we would saw

56:26

this big log with a

56:28

giant song. Also did a bunch of,

56:30

like, self improvement exercises and, you know, getting to know you games

56:32

and all that bullshit.

56:34

And then we also We

56:37

had to clean up after ourselves, after dinner. We

56:40

had to take the

56:42

trash to this dumpster that was about a

56:44

mile away, me, and

56:46

another person. We're on each side of

56:48

this trash can that was, like, eighty

56:50

pounds of liquid trash, and we'd

56:52

have to haul it all the way to this dumpster.

56:54

And I can recall

56:56

many times you

56:56

know, feeling like

56:57

my arm was gonna fall off at any point.

56:59

Also, in order to graduate, there were a

57:01

couple of things that we

57:03

had to do. The first part was we had to do this thing

57:05

called ticket to ride. And if you're familiar

57:08

with AA or recovery or a

57:10

fourth step, It's basically

57:12

that. Basically, we just had to write

57:14

down all the things we've done wrong in our life

57:16

and then they would mail it to our parents for

57:18

them to read every single last

57:20

horrific detail. As soon as that

57:22

was completed, we were allowed

57:24

to go on this hike, which was

57:26

required in order for us to get out.

57:28

So it's this week long hike

57:30

for Montana. Aside

57:32

from the fact that I absolutely hated it,

57:34

it was beautiful. It was the most beautiful

57:36

place I'd ever seen at

57:38

night. They let us sleep style at

57:40

one time and we got to see the entire night sky and there's

57:42

no light pollution out there. So

57:45

you saw everything satellites

57:48

the Milky Way, you name

57:49

it, we saw it.

57:49

We were traversing across

57:52

this this very steep

57:55

hill. So, like, I was walking across the steep

57:57

incline and I lost my footing

58:00

and I rolled all the way down this

58:02

damn hill and the only thing that stopped

58:04

me from

58:06

rolling any further was my face hitting a tree. And I woke up from

58:08

that. Well, not woke up. I didn't pass out, but

58:10

I came to from that

58:12

with blood running down

58:14

my

58:14

face. Thinking I'm dead. Like, this is it. This is the end. And

58:16

sadly, no, it was not the end.

58:18

After that, I realized

58:20

I had spray my ankle And

58:24

so I had to basically finish the rest of the

58:26

hike with the spring ankle

58:27

and, you know, cuts it out blood

58:30

on

58:31

my head. We came back and we were done basically. And

58:34

there was only one more thing we had to do. We had to

58:36

climb this giant

58:38

tower structure I'm terrified

58:40

of heights. I refused to do it.

58:42

I still did it, but I'm

58:44

like, no. I'm not gonna do it. Fuck

58:46

this. Like, everything was, like, forty or fifty

58:48

feet high. Like, I'm terrified. That was done.

58:51

Our parents were basically there. They showed up,

58:53

I think, maybe the next day or something

58:55

like that. And, you know, works. I saw them, and I was

58:57

really glad to see them. But at the same time, I was just like,

58:59

you know, die. Fuck you for doing this to me. So

59:01

we get home. And for

59:03

about two weeks, I think roughly about I was I

59:05

was an angel. You know what I mean? I I did

59:07

anything my parents asked me to do. I cleaned

59:10

my room. I did the

59:12

dishes to trash, you know, just normal shit. And then I

59:14

just, like, I'm done. I don't wanna do

59:16

this anymore, you know, so I

59:18

left. And I

59:21

ended up getting involved in drugs, really bad. Actually, I did heroin

59:23

for about two and a half years. I was

59:25

shooting it and sorting it. I did

59:27

go to rehab. The

59:30

very last time I used heroin was May twenty

59:32

third two thousand ten. I have not touched

59:34

it since and I'm extremely fortunate.

59:38

Because when I stopped using it, that was when the

59:40

crocodile and the carpet and all stuff was

59:42

coming out and people were dropping, like, wise.

59:45

So needless to say, I'm really grateful to be alive

59:48

today. Today, I am a nurse. I have a child

59:50

of my own. I've done it. I've,

59:52

you know, I beat the

59:54

statistic and I don't mean to sound like I have

59:56

control because I don't. But at the same

59:58

time, you know, I don't use hair when I'm

1:00:00

on daily basics anymore and I'm,

1:00:02

you know, I live a good

1:00:04

life today. I was angry at my mother and my parents, but

1:00:06

we've learned to, you know,

1:00:08

get through our issues. So

1:00:11

I'm really grateful that I got this opportunity

1:00:14

to speak my story, and I'm really

1:00:16

glad y'all got to hear it. So thanks for

1:00:18

sticking along.