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1:38

I for all. I

1:48

love talking politics. But

1:51

when I sit down to watch the State of the Union tonight, there

1:54

is going to be one thing going through my head.

1:57

This could have been an email. For

2:01

years, that's how the State of the Union

2:03

worked. Well, not an email. It

2:06

was a letter. That's how Thomas Jefferson

2:08

delivered his constitutionally mandated update.

2:12

But in 1913, Woodrow Wilson

2:14

delivered his remarks in person.

2:17

And for better or for worse, the tradition

2:19

has stuck. In recent

2:21

years, this event has become known less for

2:24

the policy priorities it articulates than

2:26

for the memes it inspires. Remember

2:30

when a GOP congressman interrupted Barack Obama

2:32

and called him a liar? Remember

2:35

when Nancy Pelosi ripped up Donald Trump's

2:37

speech? Last

2:39

year it was Marjorie Taylor Greene

2:41

who made news for crowing at

2:43

Biden in a dramatic white coat.

2:47

Anyway, I've been wondering what it's going to be like in

2:49

the room this evening, bracing myself for

2:51

this year's outbursts. So

2:54

I called up someone who knows. Do

2:58

you look forward to a night like this? Or

3:00

like dread it? Maybe

3:03

a little of both. I always

3:05

get a little anticipatory

3:08

about what we're going to hear and how it's going

3:10

to land. Pramila Jayapal

3:13

represents Washington State. She

3:15

is also the leader of Congress's Progressive

3:17

Caucus. I really

3:20

looked forward to it when we

3:22

had all three chambers because I

3:24

knew it was going to be a preview

3:26

of all the incredible things that we were going to

3:28

try to get done. It was a display of force.

3:31

Correct. This year, as much

3:33

as Joe Biden might want to put on a

3:35

display of force, he is facing

3:37

stiff headwinds on Capitol Hill. In

3:41

an election year, he's facing stiff headwinds at

3:43

the ballot box too. If

3:45

you look at the polling, part of the president's

3:48

problem is that he seems to be

3:50

losing young people, progressives. Only

3:53

the kind of people in Representative Jayapal's caucus.

3:57

So Ahead of tonight, she's been working behind.

4:00

In two shape Bidens got to say. You

4:04

know we have been corresponding with

4:06

the White House and I hope

4:08

that some of the things that

4:10

were pushing for get get in

4:12

to the speech That's always a

4:14

question but some it's about our

4:16

proposition agenda right? We always talk

4:18

about the opposition agenda which is

4:20

where better than trump but we

4:22

also have all these they things

4:24

that we want to do things

4:26

that we already accomplished but also

4:28

think that we want to do

4:31

or proposition agenda and I'm really

4:33

looking forward. To. Hearing the President

4:35

kind of inspire us.

4:39

You him optimistic about the Swiss? I'm

4:42

always optimistic. I don't think you can be in politics

4:44

and not be an optimist and certainly not. You know,

4:46

a leader of the progressive. Caucus. Today

4:50

on the show. The leader of

4:52

the House Progressive Caucus stated unions

4:54

twenty twenty four and why she

4:56

is still rooting for bite and

4:59

even though his campaign is making

5:01

her nervous. I'm

5:03

Mary Harris. You listen to what

5:06

next. Stick around. This.

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Episode is brought to you by discover. When.

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A I will not help you generate

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6:25

I want to talk about exactly what you want

6:28

the president to say tonight, but I

6:30

want to start by asking about

6:32

this thing you've been saying in interviews, because

6:34

I've been reading interviews you've given in the

6:36

last little bit of time. You're

6:39

an unequivocal, enthusiastic

6:41

supporter of Joe Biden, but you've

6:43

also said very clearly that you think at

6:46

this point right now, the

6:48

Biden coalition has fractured. And

6:50

to me, that's notable, because when Joe Biden

6:53

came into office, you were very

6:55

clear and gave him a

6:57

lot of praise for bringing together progressives

6:59

and moderates, getting them all at the

7:01

same table, and really pushing

7:04

through some things that made you

7:06

quite optimistic about his presidency. When

7:09

did you begin to see this fracturing you're

7:11

talking about now, and what was the issue

7:13

that to you made it clear the fracturing

7:15

was happening? There

7:18

was definitely a shift in the

7:20

third year of his presidency when

7:22

we lost the House, and

7:24

when we started to move towards the presidential election,

7:27

there was a change in staffing, obviously,

7:30

and a lot of the strong

7:32

progressives that were throughout the administration

7:34

had done an amazing job

7:36

for the first two years. We got a lot

7:39

accomplished, and they left, so there were new relationships

7:41

to be formed. That was part of it, but

7:43

I really think that the

7:45

bigger issues emerged

7:48

in the aftermath of the October

7:50

7th attacks on

7:52

Israel, and then the corresponding

7:54

posture that President Biden

7:57

took towards Israel. With.

8:01

Unconditional support and as the She

8:03

and her and crisis continued, I

8:05

was early to call for a

8:07

ceasefire because I saw what was

8:10

happening and I saw that Netanyahu.

8:12

Ahead literally stood against a two

8:15

state solution. So I do think

8:17

that was the beginning and I

8:19

am you know, still supporting the

8:21

president. I think is economic agenda

8:23

is important but I also am

8:25

not shy about making it clear

8:27

that we can not expect that

8:30

progress as are just gonna turn

8:32

out because Donald Trump is worse

8:34

Monique was. We just saw the

8:36

result in Michigan where a hundred

8:38

thousand and plus people turned out

8:40

to vote uncommitted rather than vote.

8:42

For Joe Biden exactly and it was

8:45

a significant vote because it was organized

8:47

around what is happening in Gaza and

8:49

I think what I have tried to

8:51

explain to the White House over and

8:54

over again is that. This

8:56

is an issue of the moral

8:58

consequences because people really believe at

9:00

the core that this is untenable

9:02

for the United States to be

9:04

complicit in this war. We are

9:06

the largest funder of military aid

9:08

to Israel. Eighty three percent of

9:11

the bombs that have been dropped

9:13

in Gaza Or Us bombs. This

9:15

is military aid we are providing

9:17

to Israel. And yet we're air

9:19

dropping thirty eight thousand meals into

9:21

Gaza when there's five hundred thousand

9:23

people starving. because Israel won't allow.

9:26

Humanitarian aid to go through the

9:28

border. so. We. Could lose

9:30

the selection over. Democrats

9:32

and the President's position on what is

9:34

happening in Gaza and I think there

9:36

needs to be a dramatic policy shift.

9:38

I believe we can still win, but

9:41

I think it's gotta come soon. and

9:43

then I think there's gotta be a

9:45

very deliberate effort. To. Respect were progressive,

9:47

the hard to reach out to people and

9:49

to really build the on a relationship that

9:51

we had to build and the coalition we

9:53

had to build for twenty twenty that doesn't

9:56

com just by saying to people well you

9:58

know. You. Just should know better. and

10:00

you should vote for Joe Biden over Donald Trump.

10:02

That's how it works. Yeah, you and I are

10:04

speaking Monday, March 4th. Just this

10:07

weekend, Vice President Kamala Harris gave a

10:09

speech in Selma, Alabama to mark the

10:11

59th anniversary of the bloody Sunday civil

10:13

rights attacks. When

10:16

she spoke, she called for a ceasefire. Was

10:19

that the beginning of the moral clarity that

10:21

you're looking for? Like to me, it felt

10:23

like the administration's soft launching, tougher language

10:25

when it comes to Israel. That's

10:28

how I saw it too. And the immediate

10:30

ceasefire, I mean, she didn't just say ceasefire.

10:32

She said immediate ceasefire, which was a big

10:35

change. And I think

10:37

that it is the beginning of a

10:39

shift. And this has not happened before

10:42

from the administration. It was

10:44

good, strong language. Now

10:47

we need to back it up with a policy

10:49

shift, because again, rhetoric is one thing. But

10:51

we are continuing to fund this aid.

10:53

And I don't believe we should be

10:55

providing any more offensive military aid to

10:57

Israel. I believe we need

11:00

to now be pushing Israel to

11:02

put at the forefront aid

11:04

into Gaza, reconstruction in

11:06

Gaza, returning of the hostages,

11:08

and most importantly, an actual

11:11

plan, perhaps with new leadership

11:14

from both Palestinians and Israelis,

11:17

so that we can get to a

11:19

long term peace settlement for both Palestinians

11:21

and Israelis. You've

11:23

talked about this fracturing of the Democratic

11:25

coalition. I do wonder a

11:27

little bit whether calling for

11:29

a ceasefire full throatedly might

11:33

alienate a different corner of

11:35

the Democratic coalition, different than the

11:37

progressive corner. And I say that because

11:39

I went to Thanksgiving, I sat

11:42

next to a relative who would deeply disagree

11:44

with you on the Israel issue. She'd

11:46

argue that Israel has a right to defend

11:49

itself in Gaza, and she's an

11:51

incredibly strong Democrat. What

11:54

do you tell voters like that? Well,

11:56

I think we all agree Israel had a things

12:00

for me, one of the saddest things for me, is

12:03

that there was so much unity

12:05

and support for Israel in the

12:07

days and the moments after October

12:10

7th. I think it was... She would disagree

12:12

with you on that. She would say there

12:15

wasn't enough speaking out for Israeli Jews in

12:17

the wake. Well, I think it's very

12:19

difficult to speak to 100% of people

12:21

on this issue because people do

12:23

have very strong feelings. But the

12:26

support for a ceasefire has just

12:28

continued to increase as people

12:30

have seen what is happening in

12:33

Gaza. I mean, 30,000 people have been

12:35

killed and 21,000 of them

12:37

are women and children. We have babies who

12:39

are dying of starvation, 15 just

12:41

in the last couple of days. I

12:43

think that most people who are

12:46

looking at this are seeing

12:48

that this is not... Even if the only thing

12:50

you cared about was security, and I've talked to

12:52

a lot of my Jewish friends who

12:54

are in the same place. In fact, Zionists

12:57

who are very strong in

12:59

support of security for Israel,

13:02

but don't see the path that

13:04

we're on producing that. Even

13:06

some of the hostage families are saying,

13:09

we need a ceasefire so we

13:11

can get out the hostages. The

13:13

only time we've ever had hostages

13:15

released, well, largely has been during

13:18

the last temporary ceasefire. I

13:20

think there are Israelis and

13:23

Palestinians and Americans from both

13:25

diaspora communities who want

13:27

to work towards peace for both

13:30

people, who care about both people.

13:33

Maybe we can't get 100%, but certainly

13:35

if you look at the polling across

13:37

the country, the vast majority of Americans

13:39

do believe that it is very important

13:42

for us to stop the killing in

13:44

Gaza, to have a ceasefire or a

13:46

cessation of hostilities and to work towards

13:48

a long-term solution. A

13:52

quick fact check. It is a majority

13:54

of Democrats who say Israel's gone too far in

13:56

the Gaza War and about half

13:58

of all Americans We'll

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be right back. This

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That's SAP Business AI. Another

15:51

issue Representative Jayapal is hoping to see

15:53

President Biden and the rest of the

15:56

party switch gears on is immigration. After

15:59

House Republicans a bipartisan immigration

16:01

reform bill last month. Jayapal

16:03

says, it's time for Democrats to remember

16:06

their principles. You know,

16:08

I have been distressed by the fact that

16:11

I see Democrats, some Democrats, doing what Democrats

16:13

have done for a long time, which

16:15

is trying to out-Republican Republicans. I

16:18

don't think it works. I've worked on the issue for 20 years. It isn't the

16:20

answer. It doesn't

16:22

work. And what I hope the

16:24

president does is bring a really

16:26

inclusive message on immigration to the table in

16:28

State of the Union, and also make the

16:30

case that the border is not a line

16:33

that just operates on its own. The

16:35

chaos at the border is driven by the fact

16:38

that we have chaos in our

16:40

immigration system. Our legal immigration system

16:42

has not been fixed in 30

16:45

years. And we need to

16:47

make the connection for Americans between

16:49

those two things, and make

16:51

the case for the fact that Republicans continue to

16:53

block us from doing the kinds of reforms that

16:56

would actually bring not only security

16:58

to the border, but

17:01

also would help our economy thrive, help

17:03

our families thrive, and help our country

17:05

thrive. It's interesting to me you're talking

17:07

about immigration, because, of course, in the

17:10

Senate, Democrats and Republicans spent

17:12

a long time negotiating a deal on

17:14

immigration that was shut down when

17:18

Donald Trump said, we can't give Joe Biden a win. This

17:20

is an election year. But

17:23

a lot of progressives were really upset by the kind

17:25

of negotiating that was taking place in the Senate and

17:27

the kind of things that were coming out of that

17:29

deal. But then there were other people saying, well,

17:31

this is good politics because now we can say,

17:34

the Republicans shut us down. We would have come

17:36

to you. We would have given you aggressive stances

17:38

on the border. At one point,

17:40

Joe Biden talked about shutting the border down.

17:43

What do you make of that gamble? Look,

17:46

Republicans have never wanted to

17:49

fix the immigration issue. They

17:52

want to leave it out there

17:54

as a political tool to drive

17:56

xenophobia and racism and fear. And

17:59

I think that's a great question. that's what we progressives, the Hispanic

18:01

caucus, has been saying for a long time

18:03

is don't fall into the trap of

18:06

only doing harsh enforcement things. What

18:08

we've seen over time is that

18:10

harsh immigration policies don't work. They

18:12

didn't work under Donald Trump. We

18:14

all fought them. And so to

18:16

see Democrats kind of embracing

18:19

some of those things with no conversation

18:21

at all about these underlying

18:23

questions of a pathway to citizenship

18:25

and real reforms would

18:27

actually fix things at the border was

18:30

deeply disappointing. But in

18:33

the end, Republicans proved

18:35

exactly what we were saying. They wouldn't

18:37

even go for the harshest bill that

18:40

Mitch McConnell called the harshest immigration enforcement

18:42

bill. And so they showed their true

18:44

colors. And hopefully Democrats can come back

18:47

together now and show people

18:49

that this is what we're talking about. You

18:52

know, one of the other things the president

18:55

is sure to talk about at State of

18:57

the Union is reproductive rights, because it is

18:59

an issue that is incredibly important to voters

19:01

right now. And

19:04

I was thinking about this because I've clocked this difference in

19:07

how you and President Biden talk about

19:09

this issue. You've

19:11

written incredibly movingly about your own

19:13

abortion. You had a

19:16

child who is incredibly premature. You knew you

19:18

were not ready for another kid. You

19:20

found yourself pregnant anyway. You

19:23

made a choice. You had your

19:25

abortion. You were incredibly grateful for it. But

19:28

I was just reading this interview Joe Biden gave

19:30

to The New Yorker, where he used

19:34

such different language. He talked about how, you know,

19:36

I've never been supportive of it's my body.

19:38

I can do with it what I want. Is

19:43

that perspective? Do you worry

19:45

about it going into an election year? Do

19:47

you worry when you speak to younger voters

19:49

about this issue? Do you worry

19:52

about it as a political message? Well,

19:54

I think that Joe Biden has

19:56

has walked a journey on The

19:59

Issue. The oh of abortion. I

20:02

mean, obviously his own religion,

20:04

his own religious beliefs are

20:06

are really important here, but

20:08

I also think he has

20:10

understood that. The right

20:12

to make choices about our own

20:14

bodies is not just about our

20:17

own choices, it's also about economic

20:19

opportunities. It's also about freedom. It's

20:21

also about the state's role in

20:23

our bedrooms. But have heard some

20:25

frustrated young voters basically threw up

20:28

their hands and say it doesn't

20:30

matter how I vote in November

20:32

or if I vote in November

20:34

because right now if I'm in

20:36

Texas I can't get the health

20:39

care I need and Joe Biden

20:41

is able. To change that? Like.

20:43

Joe Biden talks about passing legislation that

20:45

would codify Rosie Weighed. But.

20:48

Doing that would involve abolishing the filibuster,

20:50

which I know you're. You

20:52

approve of. But it's something

20:54

that a lot of people in the

20:56

Senate have resisted, and Joe Biden has

20:58

to. so. The question becomes. Why?

21:01

Does it matter? Like when you're faced with a

21:03

voter like that? How. Do you reach them?

21:06

Well. I've said that look, we have to

21:08

change not just the rulers, the people who are

21:10

not as, but we also to change the rules.

21:12

And we we have rules that were stuck with

21:15

and the filibuster is one of them. Joe Biden

21:17

has said that he. Would. Be

21:19

supportive of reforming the filibuster so that

21:21

we can clarify abortion rights. That we

21:23

can clarify voting rights. I think we

21:26

need to get rid of it completely.

21:28

That I think we need. At

21:30

least fifty bullets if is in the

21:32

senate. and right now you know we

21:35

theoretically have forty eight course lot of

21:37

democrats you might be hiding behind to

21:39

particular or senators who came out and

21:41

said they don't believe in getting of

21:44

her the filibuster. but let's try to

21:46

get a majority of fifty one or

21:48

fifty two in the senate. And

21:51

then let's change the rules because it's

21:53

very. Frustrating for people who you

21:55

know we've. Said to them give us

21:57

majorities in the senate and. The House and The

21:59

White. and we'll do all these things when

22:01

the reality is the filibuster is a Jim

22:03

Crow legacy rule that stops

22:06

us from doing so many things that

22:08

not just young voters, but voters across

22:10

this country want. We have

22:12

to show young people the path because

22:14

they're so tired of hearing us

22:16

say that we're going to do all these things,

22:19

but not talking to them about how we're going

22:21

to do them. And I think if we explain

22:23

to people that we need at least a

22:26

51-52 vote majority in the Senate and

22:28

that we are going to demand of

22:30

our senators that they get rid of the filibuster so

22:32

that we can do all these things, that

22:35

is a pathway, but we've got to lay it out

22:37

for people. We can't just say, you know, trust us,

22:39

we're going to get it done because, hey, they've

22:42

trusted us and we haven't explained to

22:44

them that the rules don't allow it. We've

22:48

talked a bit about this fractured Democratic coalition

22:50

that you feel like you're staring at right

22:52

now. When will you

22:54

know that that coalition is

22:57

coming back together again? You

23:00

know, I think it's really a feeling

23:02

of momentum on the ground of an

23:05

ability to hear and listen to what

23:08

we want to get done in the

23:10

next round and what we have gotten

23:12

done. I am

23:14

a very intuitive person in politics, you

23:16

know, back in 2016 when everyone thought

23:18

that Hillary Clinton was going to win.

23:21

And my husband said to me, oh, you know, Donald

23:23

Trump, this is probably good that he's in the race

23:25

because it means Democrats will win. And I

23:28

was pretty alone in saying he

23:31

is using xenophobia, racism, sexism, and I

23:33

think he's going to win. You mean

23:35

like he's using the greatest hits? Yeah.

23:38

Yeah. And I'm a woman of color. I know

23:40

exactly what this looks like. So

23:43

I predicted that he was going to

23:45

win. And unfortunately, I was

23:47

right. I think this time

23:49

around what I feel over the last couple

23:51

of months, and I've shared this with the

23:53

White House, is

23:56

I am seeing that fracturing on the ground, the

23:58

same kind of thing. thing that

24:00

I was feeling in 2016

24:04

because I couldn't feel the energy

24:06

of our progressive base. And I

24:08

think Democrats for too

24:10

long have focused on a swing

24:13

voter that they define as the

24:15

independent white suburban woman. She is

24:17

extremely important. We need her. But

24:20

what we forget is that the

24:23

biggest base of swing voters are

24:25

young people, people of color, progressives,

24:28

who have to be respected and

24:30

brought into the process because

24:32

they won't swing to Donald Trump, but they will

24:34

swing out to the sidelines, out

24:36

to the couch and not vote at all

24:39

if they don't feel like they're being heard,

24:42

listened to and brought into

24:44

the coalition in an active,

24:46

deliberate way. You're

24:48

saying a very terrifying thing. I think to

24:51

some of my listeners in such a

24:53

calm way. Yeah. Well, it is terrifying,

24:55

I think. Donald Trump is terrifying. I

24:57

lived through that first term. I was

24:59

elected the same night that Donald Trump

25:02

was elected. And I remember just speaking

25:05

at my first event as

25:07

a Congresswoman elect the morning after

25:10

in front of weeping people at

25:12

our city hall and trying

25:14

to hold things together for

25:16

people, to give hope and to allow

25:19

people to feel like their

25:21

voices still mattered. But

25:23

I'm also hopeful because I don't

25:26

think that things are set by

25:29

polls months out from the

25:31

election. I do feel that

25:33

the momentum and the work we have

25:35

to do organizing at the ground and

25:38

the policy shifts that have to happen.

25:41

And the White House and the campaign

25:43

has to understand how important the progressive base

25:45

is. I feel like they really got it

25:47

in the first two years. They really got

25:49

it in 2020 when we had

25:52

the Biden Sanders unity task forces. And

25:54

Joe Biden Made a real effort to reach

25:57

out to all different parts of the coalition.

26:00

We need that again. We.

26:02

Need the importance, the

26:05

dedication, the respect. And

26:07

the policy changes. Are

26:10

present shop all Thank you so much I'm on

26:12

the shop well thank you So Bugs. Camilla.

26:16

Jai Paul is the Us Representative

26:18

from Washington Seventh Congressional District. She's

26:21

also the chair of the Congressional

26:23

Progressive Caucus. Another

26:25

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