0:13

Hello and welcome. I'm

0:13

Rachel.

0:16

I'm Jake.

0:17

And we're so bored. The

0:17

Podcast where each episode we

0:22

take a close look at a tabletop

0:22

game and discuss our personal

0:25

experiences with said game to

0:25

answer the question, Will this

0:28

cure our boredom?

0:29

That's right, we looked at

0:29

the mechanics complexity and

0:32

replayability in a game to

0:32

determine if it's the perfect

0:34

alternative to well, let's say

0:34

since it's tax season, searching

0:40

through all the transactions on

0:40

both your credit card and your

0:42

debit cards history to find the

0:42

charges you made improving your

0:45

rental property over the last

0:45

year to try to get them all

0:48

accurately listed, so you can

0:48

finally do your taxes. Yay,

0:53

taxes.

0:53

I hate taxes. So much

0:53

fun. I hate them so much.

0:59

Alright, so today we are doing a

0:59

very fun and exciting episode.

1:04

But before we get into that,

1:04

Jake has an announcement.

1:07

Yep, I'm still streaming

1:07

on Twitch, I haven't given up

1:10

yet. I stream semi regularly, my

1:10

schedule changes each week. So I

1:14

keep that schedule tab on my

1:14

Twitch account up to date. You

1:18

can go there and find me at

1:18

Naughty Doc 541. That's NAU gh t

1:23

y D o c 541. I've been streaming

1:23

a lot of Elden ring. I think

1:28

once a week, I'm going to be

1:28

doing a retro game as well. So

1:30

something from like when I was a

1:30

kid or earlier, I did some Banjo

1:34

Kazooie recently, I really love

1:34

that game. So come check it out.

1:38

Jake and I have also

1:38

started streaming Val Haim,

1:41

which is a like survival game

1:41

that we're doing together. So

1:44

that's been pretty fun.

1:45

Yeah, we are also still

1:45

continuing our giveaway for dune

1:50

Imperium. If you would like a

1:50

chance to win a copy. You can

1:53

check out how to do that on our

1:53

Facebook page.

1:56

Yep. So that's going

1:56

until the end of March. So check

2:00

that out. If you haven't yet. I

2:00

mean, it's free to enter. Might

2:03

as well give it a try.

2:05

It's a great game. We did

2:05

an episode on it last time, I

2:07

highly recommend it. It'd be a

2:07

great game to get for free

2:10

because it's normally like 70 bucks, I

2:12

think. Yeah. All right.

2:12

So this episode, we're talking

2:15

about cooperative games with our

2:15

friend Chris from the charity

2:20

board gamer. Thank you for

2:20

joining us, Chris.

2:23

Thanks for having me.

2:24

Go ahead and introduce

2:24

yourself a little bit. Tell us

2:27

who you are.

2:28

Well, I'm a giant nerd

2:28

who is a father of three crazy

2:32

kids. And I love board games.

2:32

And I love doing things where we

2:37

can help the community and so we

2:37

kind of found a way to kind of

2:41

put those two together and the

2:41

charity board gamer came about.

2:45

That's awesome. That's your

2:45

Twitch channel. Yeah, we do.

2:49

Twitch YouTube, Facebook,

2:49

Instagram. Tik. Tok is a scary

2:53

thing, but I'm trying. And then,

2:53

of course, what's the other

2:58

thing? I don't even know the

2:58

other ones. There's Oh, Twitter,

3:01

Twitter. It's interesting place.

3:01

So yeah,

3:04

yeah, we haven't quite

3:04

gotten to tick tock yet. And I

3:07

don't know that we will.

3:10

I don't know, YouTube's

3:10

the next adventure for us, I

3:12

think. So today, we're talking

3:12

about what is a cooperative

3:17

game. And Chris actually picked

3:17

this genre of games, so I expect

3:22

him to be a huge fan of the

3:22

genre.

3:25

Oh, I hate him. They're

3:25

horrible. Okay,

3:27

this is gonna be a very interesting episode.

3:29

Oh, wonderful. Sorry.

3:31

I thought we were doing

3:31

your Euro games.

3:35

Oh, no. Anyway, the Euro

3:35

games.

3:38

But we just haven't

3:38

prepared for that.

3:40

It's okay. Well, I love

3:40

cooperative games. I love

3:45

cooperative games. cooperative

3:45

games is kind of what got me

3:47

back into the hobby. When I went

3:47

to local church for a game

3:51

night. One game that was on the

3:51

table was pandemic, by I would

3:56

like to refer to it as my second

3:56

love. My wife is my first love

3:59

pandemic is my second love. But

3:59

it's one of those games that you

4:02

know, I had not played games

4:02

where it was more of a

4:06

cooperative experience. I was so

4:06

used to playing like Monopoly

4:09

and risk and Stratego and you're

4:09

playing against each other, and

4:12

you're being hateful and

4:12

spiteful. hiding money under

4:15

your leg, you know, that kind of

4:15

game. So that's kind of how we

4:18

played. Yeah. So to play a game

4:18

that's cooperative, and just

4:21

kind of having fun with family

4:21

and friends, was a whole new

4:24

experience for me, and I have

4:24

really enjoyed it. That's really

4:27

nice. Yeah, I don't have

4:27

that same kind of relationship

4:30

with cooperative games, as

4:30

listeners of our show will know

4:33

that I'm not a huge fan. Yes, a

4:33

fan. But I have managed to come

4:38

up with a list of some that I

4:38

like and would recommend. So but

4:41

yeah, let's talk about what is a

4:41

cooperative game. So we've

4:47

broken this down into three

4:47

different kinds of subcategories

4:51

of co op. The first one on the

4:51

list that we have is fully Co

4:55

Op. And so this is something

4:55

like pandemic or Forbidden

5:00

Island or Forbidden Desert.

5:00

Basically all the players are

5:03

working together to achieve a

5:03

goal. And either everyone wins

5:07

or no one

5:08

wins. And these are the

5:08

ones that Rachel is really not a

5:11

fan of.

5:12

Let's be honest, yes,

5:12

this is true.

5:14

We'll talk a little bit

5:14

later about why that is. The

5:17

other two categories that we

5:17

have those split up into our

5:20

semi cooperative, where players

5:20

are cooperating and competing at

5:24

the same time, while trying to

5:24

complete a common objective.

5:27

This means that there will be

5:27

some players who win, or no one

5:31

wins. Usually, not everyone will

5:31

win, but it's not really

5:36

possible. One of the examples

5:36

that I would give off the top my

5:40

head of a semi cooperative game

5:40

is betrayal. Betrayal is semi

5:44

cooperative in the sense that in

5:44

the very first half of the game,

5:47

before the haunt is revealed,

5:47

it's completely cooperative. And

5:50

then depending on the haunt,

5:50

depending on what happens, it

5:52

may turn into a semi cooperative

5:52

game where three players are now

5:57

facing off against one player.

5:57

And there's conditions that

6:01

allow multiple people to win,

6:01

other than just one.

6:03

And then you have the

6:03

hidden traitor games, some of my

6:07

favorite ones, players have

6:07

personal objectives that may or

6:11

may not conflict with a main

6:11

objective of the game. Someone

6:15

always wins. Never everyone, and

6:15

never no one. But it also can be

6:21

considered social deduction. But

6:21

it's not always social deduction

6:25

games, one of the games that I

6:25

highly recommend actually fits

6:29

with this is one that's called

6:29

bank heist, where some people

6:32

are part of a bank robber group.

6:32

And then there's a hidden

6:36

traitors are the cops and the

6:36

other hidden traitors are the

6:40

gang members, or the rivals of

6:40

that group. And you're robbing a

6:44

bank. And at some point, the

6:44

bullets start flying. Uh huh.

6:48

Yeah. And I wanted to go

6:48

back and say, for anyone who is

6:51

feeling like arguing with Jake

6:51

about betrayal, being a semi Co

6:55

Op versus a hidden traitor game,

6:55

I feel you, and you may or may

6:59

not be right, the problem is, is

6:59

that it really depends on the

7:02

haunt that you uncover, it's

7:02

possible to actually have a hunt

7:06

where you're just like treasure

7:06

hunter searching for treasure,

7:09

and you actually don't even have

7:09

a traitors, that is a haunt. And

7:13

often, there is a traitor that,

7:13

you know, that fits into the

7:16

hidden traitor component. But

7:16

because we can't like really

7:19

fully classify it in one way or

7:19

the other. I think that it

7:22

fairly fits into the semi Co Op.

7:24

I think one semi Co Op

7:24

that some people can know about

7:27

is one that's called Marvel

7:27

legendary, where you have that

7:30

cooperative experience where

7:30

you're trying to defeat the

7:33

villain, but at the end of the

7:33

game, it's whoever has the most

7:36

points that actually gets the

7:36

win. Okay, so it's an

7:40

interesting take of semi

7:40

cooperative. There we go. Yeah.

7:43

Okay.

7:44

All right, we have

7:44

prepared a brief history report

7:48

on cooperative games, which is

7:48

actually pretty interesting. You

7:52

know, we were doing this

7:52

research, team versus team games

7:55

date back to antiquity, usually

7:55

through sports, not necessarily

8:01

through board games. But that

8:01

kind of teamwork is the basis

8:05

for cooperative gameplay. In

8:05

1903, we actually have the

8:10

publication of the first or at

8:10

least the first one that I could

8:13

find cooperative game called the

8:13

landlord's game. And this game

8:17

actually had two different

8:17

modes, one that was essentially

8:20

a monopoly. And those rules

8:20

actually went on to become the

8:24

basis for the Monopoly game that

8:24

we know and may or may not love

8:28

today. But the other mode was a

8:28

cooperative mode that was meant

8:34

to demonstrate that the

8:34

cooperation was morally superior

8:39

to like the competitive mode of

8:39

like how businesses work

8:43

together and monopolize things,

8:43

which I thought was super

8:47

interesting. Jake, you said,

8:47

like you had heard about a

8:50

Kickstarter, possibly trying to

8:50

bring this back?

8:53

Yes. So what's the name of

8:53

that? It's your play your play,

8:58

I don't know if it's a company

8:58

if it's a publisher, according

9:01

to the Wikipedia page for this

9:01

landlords game. As of 2021, they

9:06

were planning on doing a

9:06

Kickstarter to reproduce a bunch

9:09

of copies of this game, and I

9:09

couldn't find it anywhere,

9:12

couldn't find it on Kickstarter.

9:12

So it's either hidden or they

9:15

didn't do it. But I actually

9:15

reached out to your play

9:18

yesterday, while we were doing

9:18

the outline for this episode, to

9:22

try to find out more about that.

9:22

And I have not heard back yet. I

9:26

actually just checked to see if

9:26

they had gotten back to us. And

9:29

they have not as of today. Okay,

9:29

well, if that changes, we will

9:34

update you. But I thought it'd

9:34

be kind of cool to see, you know

9:37

what they're going to be asking

9:37

for that. Because it'd be

9:39

interesting to play a game

9:39

that's over 100 years old, I

9:43

would

9:43

be really interested in

9:43

seeing like, what that looks

9:46

like and how that plays and you

9:46

know, kind of look at it from

9:50

that perspective of comparing

9:50

competitive versus cooperative

9:54

and kind of the political

9:54

statement that that's trying to

9:57

make. Yeah,

9:59

I'd be interested trying

9:59

it. I just I don't know of any

10:03

way to as of right now.

10:04

Yeah, yeah. And that by

10:04

the way that landlords game was

10:08

designed as a protest against

10:08

monopolists of the time and

10:12

inspired by the principle and

10:12

philosophy of Henry George. I'm

10:16

not too familiar with Henry

10:16

George. But again, it would be

10:19

interesting to check that out.

10:20

The next cooperative board

10:20

game was released, or that we

10:24

could find at these was released

10:24

in 1954. It was a board game

10:28

version of the show Beat the

10:28

Clock. Yeah, I'm going to assume

10:31

that was a game show in the 50s.

10:31

But I was not alive, then. I

10:35

don't know anything about.

10:37

Yes. Chris, are you

10:37

alive back then?

10:40

No, gosh. Oh, my gosh.

10:45

Apparently, it's a game

10:45

show that involves people trying

10:47

to complete challenges to win

10:47

prizes while facing a time

10:50

limit. That seems to be it.

10:50

Okay. And while these clips are

10:55

old, they're in black and white.

10:55

It's from the 50s. I know. So

10:59

like I said, beat the clock was

10:59

a game show from the 50s turned

11:03

into a board game shortly

11:03

thereafter, it actually ran from

11:06

1950 to 1961. So this was

11:06

created during that time period.

11:11

Shortly thereafter, two years

11:11

later, there was another board

11:15

game of a TV show of a panel

11:15

show actually called I've got a

11:18

secret, which I have heard of

11:18

this show. I actually saw a

11:22

really interesting, one of the

11:22

contestants on The I've got a

11:26

secret show was actually the

11:26

last living person who saw

11:29

Abraham Lincoln assassinated,

11:29

which was crazy. Oh, wow. Yeah.

11:34

Because the guy was, I mean, he

11:34

was old, and he was on the show.

11:38

But yeah, he actually seen

11:38

Abraham Lincoln assassinated.

11:41

Are we

11:42

sure about that? Was it

11:42

possibly dementia that this

11:45

person was suffering from?

11:46

Oh, yeah. When was

11:46

Abraham Lincoln president? That

11:48

was the 18 1860s 1860s. Okay, so

11:48

I mean, that makes the person 90

11:55

something. Yeah. TV show in the

11:55

50s.

11:58

He was old. Like, he

11:58

looked like he should have died

12:02

on the wait, who the filming of

12:02

the show. Like, bad, but if he's

12:10

actually telling the truth, and

12:10

he said he was like four or five

12:13

years old, but he remembers it.

12:13

Oh, okay. So like I said, I've

12:17

heard of this show, but it was

12:17

turned into a board game in the

12:20

1950s as well.

12:21

In 1972, Jim D co founded

12:21

family pastimes, as a board game

12:27

publisher that focuses solely on

12:27

cooperative games released over

12:30

100 games. Some for kids, as

12:30

young as three holds a trademark

12:34

for the phrase, a cooperative

12:34

game. What kind of a trademark,

12:38

how much is a game making? I

12:38

know, right? Somebody says

12:41

cooperative game. That is ridiculous.

12:43

That's why Yeah, I

12:43

included that as like, whoa.

12:46

Like, I don't know if you'd be

12:46

able to claim that trademark

12:49

today. Because it's such a

12:49

common use term these days. I

12:54

feel like that would be

12:54

something that you wouldn't be

12:57

able to claim. But I guess back

12:57

in the day, you know, it was

13:00

something new enough that they

13:00

were able to do that.

13:03

It's craziness that he

13:03

didn't make much money out of

13:06

it, though.

13:07

Well, I don't know. I

13:07

mean, I look them up. I looked

13:09

at their website the other day,

13:09

and they have a lot of games

13:13

still on there that you can

13:13

purchase. But they are all very

13:17

like old looking. Like they

13:17

don't look like they have modern

13:21

styles or so I don't know when

13:21

the last one was actually

13:26

published. But you can still

13:26

purchase them.

13:28

So they look like heroes

13:28

is what you're trying to tell

13:31

me. I'm

13:35

older than that. Yeah.

13:38

Older than that. I'm looking at him right now. Actually.

13:41

Yeah. I mean, it

13:41

definitely looks like something

13:44

from the 70s.

13:46

So I think a French

13:46

Canadian, actually. Okay.

13:48

They're from Ontario and half

13:48

their websites in French. So

13:52

that would probably make sense.

13:54

All right. And then in

13:54

the 1980s, we start seeing more

13:58

cooperative games starting to

13:58

get published. And I was

14:00

actually really surprised to see

14:00

that that's when Arkham Horror

14:04

was published. So this is the

14:04

first instance of a game that I

14:07

actually recognize and have

14:07

played. I did not know that

14:11

Arkham Horror was

14:11

that old. So that's from

14:11

1987. Okay. Yeah,

14:16

I was really surprised

14:16

to find out that it settled.

14:18

Now, I know some of you

14:18

are going to kind of balk at the

14:22

fact that Dungeons and Dragons

14:22

was first released in 1974. Yes,

14:27

while that is true, this is

14:27

another category that we're

14:29

going to kind of steer clear of

14:29

in this episode. Because while

14:33

it is it's kind of a complicated

14:33

mess here. It is cooperative.

14:37

Yes, it is semi cooperative,

14:37

depending on the scenario you're

14:41

playing. But we've deemed that

14:41

this was more of a role playing

14:44

game than it is actually a

14:44

cooperative game. Because yes,

14:48

there are elements but there's

14:48

no clear wind condition. It's

14:50

not really like a board game or

14:50

a Yeah, it's more of a role

14:54

playing game and it's a story

14:54

driven by the choices and

14:58

actions of the players. as well

14:58

as the Game Master, so we're

15:03

kind of taking that and putting

15:03

that on the back burner that is

15:06

role playing games is something

15:06

we will discuss in a future

15:08

episode, but not really in this

15:08

one.

15:11

Yeah, I definitely agree

15:11

that Dungeons and Dragons and

15:14

those types of tabletop games

15:14

are mostly cooperative, I would

15:18

think. And you know, that's a

15:18

classic cooperative game, we're

15:22

gonna do its own deep dive into

15:22

that in another episode. All

15:26

right. And then lastly, we have

15:26

in the 2000s, hidden traitor

15:30

games start to become more

15:30

popular. And so I was trying to

15:33

do some data mining from Board

15:33

Game Geek yesterday. And that

15:37

wasn't going super well, because

15:37

I need to play around with their

15:40

API a little bit more. But the

15:40

earliest hidden traitors game

15:44

that I could find was like 2006.

15:44

I'm sure that there are some

15:48

before that, I just didn't see

15:48

any examples of it. And so you

15:53

start seeing a large increase in

15:53

the number of hidden Raider

15:56

games after the 2000s.

15:58

I mean, werewolf was one

15:58

that came out in the 80s. And

16:02

then oh, they go? Yeah, I mean,

16:02

looking at BoardGameGeek. It's

16:06

even as early as 1973 in the

16:06

1986. And then, during the 90s,

16:12

I think it had a different name,

16:12

which was mafia. And then

16:16

bezzie, a picked up the werewolf

16:16

name, and actually came up with

16:19

their own version of Werewolf. Okay,

16:21

I saw werewolf on the

16:21

list. And that might even be the

16:25

example that I saw from early

16:25

2000s. But maybe it was a like a

16:29

later production version that I

16:29

was looking at on the list

16:33

rather than the original. So

16:33

that is good to know.

16:35

Yeah, that's really good to know.

16:37

So that's our little

16:37

mini history lesson into Co Op

16:39

games. Now, we've provided some

16:39

background and our definitions

16:45

of what Co Op games are. So what

16:45

are some classic cooperative

16:49

games that like anybody would be

16:49

able to recognize? What do you

16:52

Well, Chris said Pandemic

16:52

earlier. That's one that comes

16:52

guys think? to mind immediately.

16:58

Yeah, and you'll see

16:58

pandemic and any Walmart now.

17:01

Yeah, Walmart and Target. It's

17:01

quite common to be in there. And

17:06

it's I mean, pandemic has been

17:06

going since what 2008. So of

17:10

course, pandemic, even though

17:10

people may have not played it,

17:14

they have definitely seen it in

17:14

the store somewhere. And if they

17:18

haven't bought it, then people

17:18

you need to go buy it seriously.

17:22

We don't have pandemic.

17:25

We don't. My sister has

17:25

pandemic and I played the heck

17:30

out of it. Back in the day when

17:30

she first got it and I'm, I'm

17:34

filled up on pandemic.

17:36

Mm hmm.

17:37

I have not played pandemic. So

17:37

mostly because my wife won't

17:42

play it with me. I have said we

17:42

try it and you're like, I don't

17:47

want to try it.

17:48

I don't want to do it.

17:48

Okay, see, you know, what you

17:51

need to try, you need to do

17:51

instead of just a base pandemic,

17:54

do a Pandemic Legacy game. That

17:54

way, it has a little bit of

17:58

variety, and it changes up with

17:58

each month that you play it, or

18:02

you can play it for the course

18:02

of 12 days. But I mean, that's

18:05

crazy. Or like some people play

18:05

in in the course of a whole

18:08

weekend. I can't, I can't get my

18:08

kids to sit that long enough. So

18:13

for us, it's Pandemic Legacy

18:13

season zero, which is all about

18:18

what's the Cold War, and Cold

18:18

War and viruses spreading and

18:23

everything. So you're also

18:23

you're trying to avoid certain

18:26

secret agents from finding you

18:26

out and you're kind of like a

18:30

spy traveling throughout

18:30

communist territory. So you got

18:33

to be careful. So it changes up

18:33

the whole pandemic kind of feel

18:37

to it.

18:38

That does actually make

18:38

it a lot more interesting. I

18:41

would be willing to check that

18:41

out. So they go, Jake.

18:44

Okay. I mean, I think

18:44

silver key has it.

18:47

Okay. What about other

18:47

examples that we have for

18:50

classic Co Op games?

18:51

Yeah, betrayal at house

18:51

on the hill, that game came out

18:55

before pandemic goes 2004 has

18:55

been published by about four

18:59

different publishers. Now, of

18:59

course, a new implementation of

19:02

it is coming out this year. And

19:02

then it's also created other

19:06

games come about. But for some

19:06

people, the old Avalon Hill

19:09

days, they might know betrayal

19:09

from that. So 2004 betrayal at

19:15

house on the hill.

19:17

I think those are both

19:17

definitely good examples that at

19:20

least people in the gaming

19:20

community have probably heard

19:23

of. And then if you're talking

19:23

to like your grandmother who

19:29

lives under a rock or something,

19:29

you might also be able to

19:32

mention like trades or trivial

19:32

pursuit. Those are examples of

19:36

semi Co Op games, which involve

19:36

being on teams and working as a

19:41

team and then usually one team

19:41

wins over the other. All right,

19:44

let's get into like what are

19:44

other Co Op games and do a

19:49

little bit more of a deep dive

19:49

into these various things. So

19:53

let's start with fully Co Op.

19:53

Chris, do you have any examples

19:57

of fully Co Op games that you

19:57

want to talk about?

20:00

Yeah, let's go ahead and

20:00

let's start with Forbidden

20:03

Island, where you are working

20:03

cooperatively as the water is

20:06

rising and you're trying to get

20:06

off the island, of course. And

20:10

your goal is to basically

20:10

survive and get get off. I mean,

20:13

there's also of course,

20:13

Forbidden Desert forbidden Sky,

20:16

which are other ones in the

20:16

series. But in Forbidden Desert,

20:19

I think his life favorite out of

20:19

the three. That would be a good

20:24

one for a fully cooperative one.

20:24

Other games that are out there

20:27

five minute Marvel Hmm, where

20:27

you are quickly slapping down

20:31

cards to meet different symbols,

20:31

and you're trying to do it all

20:35

with him. Guess how much? Five

20:35

minutes? Hey, I was gonna say

20:38

half an hour. Yes. Half an hour.

20:38

Yes. A half hour game that is

20:42

perfect for families everywhere.

20:42

Gosh, no. So yeah, you're

20:46

playing basically five minutes.

20:46

And then if you want to go onto

20:49

face and Expo and go five

20:49

minutes, and then it's got some

20:52

great heroes in there. Our works

20:52

cute. And it has Squirrel Girl

20:56

one the best Avengers ever? Oh,

20:56

yeah. Five Minute Marvel,

20:59

definitely. And then you've got

20:59

games like mysterious,

21:02

mysterious, interesting,

21:02

cooperative game, because one

21:06

person is dead. And so they're

21:06

trying to help you figure out

21:09

who killed them. I don't know if

21:09

I will consider it a fully

21:12

cooperate because somebody is

21:12

trying to get more points. I

21:15

think we're at least trying to

21:15

get ahead. And guess who

21:18

murdered who?

21:19

Well, so you either win

21:19

as a whole team or you fail as a

21:24

team mysterium. But there is

21:24

that component of like bidding

21:29

on other people and thinking if

21:29

they're correct or wrong. Yeah,

21:32

there is that so.

21:33

And that really just moves

21:33

you up on a specific tracker

21:37

that will give you an advantage

21:37

at the end whether or not you're

21:39

right, more than you then you

21:39

are wrong. Mm hmm. And honestly,

21:43

like Rachel said, you win or

21:43

lose as a group. So it behooves

21:46

you all to bet if somebody is

21:46

right, and you think the right

21:49

bet that they're right, if they're wrong, they think they're wrong, but that they're

21:51

wrong. So that as a group at the

21:54

end, you get this better bonus.

21:56

Yeah. And then the other

21:56

one, if anybody likes the OP,

22:01

which I do, there's the rising

22:01

series, the rising series there

22:05

is that is rising, there is Dark

22:05

Side rising, there is Batman who

22:09

laughs was and there's plankton

22:09

rising? Yes, I'm reading these

22:13

right off my shelf, because I

22:13

have each and every one of them.

22:16

And then I think the next one

22:16

that's coming out is like

22:19

Avatar, The Last Airbender fire

22:19

nation rising. Hmm.

22:24

Yeah. So those are a

22:24

lots of examples of fully

22:28

cooperative games. I mean, I

22:28

don't know all of the ones that

22:31

you talked about, but I feel

22:31

like, you know, something that

22:33

they have in common is that,

22:33

like I said, you either win as a

22:38

team or you lose as a team.

22:38

Everyone wins, or everyone

22:40

loses. And that's kind of the

22:40

reason that I'm not a huge fan

22:45

of fully cooperative games. I

22:45

really, really hate the idea of

22:50

nobody winning. Like, at least

22:50

in a competitive game, it's like

22:54

somebody did the best, somebody

22:54

can walk away with a win, the

22:59

feeling of everyone losing is

22:59

just so depressing. Like,

23:04

I'm gonna go ahead and say

23:04

this, when you're the one who's

23:07

always winning, it's okay to

23:07

lose as a group.

23:12

No, no, how about you

23:12

bring us up to win as a group.

23:16

Like,

23:16

I can't carry the whole

23:16

team, I can only do my part, as

23:20

we will talk about in the hidden

23:20

traitor section or my experience

23:24

as traitors.

23:26

But I think my one

23:26

exception to like not really

23:30

liking fully cooperative games

23:30

seems to be campaign games. And

23:34

etherfields is really my first

23:34

kind of experience with campaign

23:39

games,

23:40

the spoiler alert, we will

23:40

do a full deep dive series on

23:44

either fields. When we finish

23:44

it. We're like two thirds the

23:49

way through pretty much of the

23:49

first chapter.

23:53

Well, no, we're at the

23:53

end of the first chapter, but

23:55

two thirds of the way through

23:55

maybe the whole thing. I don't

23:57

Yeah. But then they're sending

23:57

us more stuff. I bought all the

24:01

expansions, and they're sending

24:01

the second wave stuff. So

24:05

definitely aware of this fact.

24:07

But yeah, so either

24:07

feels this this game, you know,

24:10

I don't want to go into too much

24:10

detail. But it's this game where

24:12

as a team, you are kind of

24:12

exploring these dreams and

24:16

coming up with solutions to

24:16

various problems that are

24:19

happening in these crazy dreams.

24:19

And because their dreams, the

24:22

world does not have to follow

24:22

the rules of physics or make any

24:27

sense at all. Yeah. And it's

24:27

just a really cool concept that

24:33

has pulled me into liking

24:33

cooperative games a little bit

24:36

more. And part of that is

24:36

because I feel like because it's

24:41

a story even if you fail this

24:41

one time, like you're meant to

24:45

go back and try again until you

24:45

succeed and then you move on to

24:48

like the next thing. It's not

24:48

just, oh, no, we lost and I

24:53

guess that's just how it is.

24:53

That's how we're ending the

24:55

night we lost. We failed. And

24:55

don't get me wrong there. There

25:00

are definitely times when I've

25:00

left in either fields game and

25:03

been like, Oh, I'm so

25:03

frustrated. I feel like we've

25:07

done this same dream four times,

25:07

and we can't figure it out.

25:11

Yeah, where's the secret that we

25:11

need to find? So, but like I

25:16

said, I don't want to go into too much detail, because we are definitely going to have a

25:18

series on either fields. So

25:21

that's my thoughts on fully

25:21

cooperative games.

25:24

I like but you know,

25:26

alright, so semi Co Op

25:26

games. What do we have for this?

25:30

I think we already mentioned a

25:30

couple of examples in the

25:34

beginning. Yep.

25:35

And we talked about

25:35

betrayal. And we actually have

25:38

done a previous episode on

25:38

betrayal at house on the hill.

25:41

If you aren't familiar with it,

25:41

definitely go back and listen to

25:44

it we we give a whole in depth

25:44

introduction on how to play it,

25:48

what it's like, what are the

25:48

objectives and our experiences

25:52

with it?

25:52

Yeah, we talk about two

25:52

of the haunts specifically. So

25:56

like, we do have a like a

25:56

spoiler warning right there if

25:59

you want to skip it. But if

25:59

you're interested in listening

26:01

to that, you can, you know,

26:01

listen to how that kind of plays

26:04

out the haunts and what it's

26:04

like to be on the traitor side

26:07

versus the non traitor side and stuff like that.

26:10

Yeah, the other semi

26:10

cooperative game I wanted to

26:12

talk about is crisis, I had

26:12

never heard of this game until

26:17

Rachel just bought it at our

26:17

local seller's market. So at our

26:21

local board game bar that we go

26:21

to, once a month, they have

26:24

people come in and just sell

26:24

their old games or their use

26:27

games or kind of trade. It's

26:27

pretty cool. And she, she just

26:31

picked this up. And it seems

26:31

pretty weighty. It's weighted

26:35

really highly on board game

26:35

geeks, I think it's like a

26:38

three, eight or something. But

26:38

it's semi cooperative in the

26:42

sense that the game is set that

26:42

you are the head of a business,

26:46

each of you is the head of a

26:46

business in a failing economy.

26:50

And you as a collective group

26:50

have to make good decisions

26:55

throughout the game, that will

26:55

help bring the economy back up.

26:59

If you don't do that, and it

26:59

falls too low. There are

27:02

consequences. So there are three

27:02

different levels. You've got

27:05

like a green, a yellow and a

27:05

red, the worse it gets, the

27:08

worse the consequences are. So

27:08

you, as a collective group have

27:11

to make decisions that will make

27:11

the economy good, while also

27:16

competing for the most points.

27:16

It's pretty cool. I really like

27:18

the idea of that. Mm hmm.

27:20

Yeah. So when Jake and I

27:20

were playing this game, there

27:23

were a couple of terms in a row

27:23

where it was like, Oh, we really

27:27

need to work together and figure

27:27

out like what we're going to do

27:31

to prevent the economy from

27:31

collapsing, and like, just us

27:35

completely losing the game. And

27:35

then we got past that we were

27:38

able to kind of recover and then

27:38

it goes back to being more

27:42

competitive. Okay, I'm going to

27:42

now focus on the things that I

27:46

really need to get done. But we

27:46

had to come together for those

27:49

couple of turns in order to be

27:49

able to get past that and allow

27:52

the game to continue, which was

27:52

just a really interesting

27:55

experience. Yeah, because

27:57

if you as a group do

27:57

really poorly at managing the

28:00

economy, and it goes all the way

28:00

into the bottom, you all fail,

28:04

everyone loses. Nobody wins.

28:04

Yeah, that's pretty, pretty

28:08

interesting.

28:09

Chris, what are some

28:09

examples of semi Co Op games

28:11

that you've played? For me

28:13

semi cooperative? I think

28:13

we talked about Marvel

28:16

legendary. I think that's a good

28:16

one legendary series is probably

28:19

a good one. I don't do as many

28:19

semi Co Op, surprisingly enough,

28:23

okay. When it comes to me, it's

28:23

more cooperative or competitive.

28:27

Okay. But there is one semi Co

28:27

Op that that hits the right

28:31

spot. And it's it's one that I

28:31

thoroughly enjoy, instead of

28:35

winner. Yeah. And dead of

28:35

winter, the longest night, the

28:40

idea where you have some certain

28:40

objectives that you might need

28:44

to do to quote unquote, win. And

28:44

it kind of fits also the hidden

28:49

traitor, but it's just that fact

28:49

that also, there's somebody

28:52

there that is trying to mess

28:52

everything up, and watch it all

28:56

burn and get the zombie

28:56

apocalypse, basically, coming in

28:59

and killing all your people that

28:59

are there. It's one game that I

29:03

think fits so well as sound like

29:03

Co Op. Yeah, yeah.

29:07

And actually, I would

29:07

argue that depending on the

29:11

mode, and the rules that you're

29:11

playing with, I think dead of

29:14

winter actually fits into all

29:14

three categories that we have

29:18

outlined, because you can play

29:18

it without any secret

29:21

objectives. And without any

29:21

hidden traitors, you can play it

29:23

fully cooperatively. You could

29:23

play it semi cooperatively

29:26

without a hidden traitors, but

29:26

still have secret objectives.

29:29

Because like, there's a

29:29

distinction between traitor

29:32

objectives, and just regular

29:32

secret objectives. And then you

29:37

could play with the hidden

29:37

traitors where you've actually

29:39

got somebody who is trying to do

29:39

their own thing and kind of burn

29:43

it all down.

29:44

That's the best way to do

29:44

it. I have to say, Yeah,

29:48

I've never played it that

29:48

way. I'll be honest.

29:51

Oh my gosh, you are

29:51

missing out. You need to play

29:54

with somebody being the traitor

29:54

and you have like, you've got to

29:56

get five people. One person

29:56

needs a traitor you just pass

29:59

out the card. You don't know which one is going to be the Traitor Card. And then oh my

30:01

gosh. Oh yeah, I'm turning into

30:06

two gasoline. Okay, yeah, I'm

30:06

turning in so much food turning

30:10

in so much medicine.

30:12

Oh, but you play it all

30:12

facedown, right?

30:14

You play it all facedown.

30:14

So somebody could be lying

30:17

through their teeth. What's a

30:17

lot of fun is when you're the

30:20

when you are the traitor, I like

30:20

to play some of the cards that

30:24

we all need. Uh huh. And then

30:24

that way, it's like, oh, yeah,

30:27

okay. Yeah, this is one

30:27

medicine. So I play a medicine.

30:30

And then on the next round, I'll

30:30

be like, Yeah, this is gasoline.

30:35

And it's something else. So

30:35

yeah, yeah, it's such a joy to

30:39

play it that way. I think that's

30:39

probably the best way to do it

30:42

is to play it with a with a

30:42

hidden traitor in it.

30:45

That's a really interesting perspective. And I want to talk more about that.

30:47

But let's go into hidden traitor

30:51

examples. And then we'll come

30:51

back to that. So what are some

30:54

of the hidden trigger games, Chris, that you really like?

30:56

Well, I mean, of course,

30:56

bank heist, bank heist, which

30:59

from lonely Hero games, there's

30:59

just something fun about that

31:02

game, where you're playing. And

31:02

what's crazy, it's only a five

31:06

to eight player game. So it's a

31:06

it's weird niche, that you have

31:09

to have the right amount of

31:09

players for it. And it fits very

31:13

well when you have that five.

31:13

And it's even more fun when you

31:16

have eight. But you're basically

31:16

going through these couple of

31:19

phases, you've got a phase where

31:19

you're doing the bank robbery

31:21

phase, you're taking things out

31:21

of the safe, and you're passing

31:25

the different people. And at

31:25

some point, if they get a cash

31:28

bag, they're going to react with

31:28

whatever their cash value, their

31:31

role tells them to do. So if I

31:31

get a cash bag, and I'm part of

31:35

the crew, I'm going to put it in

31:35

the getaway vehicle. But if I'm

31:39

a cop, I'm going to keep it in

31:39

front of me. If I'm a rival, I

31:42

may keep the cash in front of

31:42

me. So that way, I can pay off

31:45

the getaway driver when we get

31:45

to the end, and we kill all the

31:48

rest of the crew, and we win the

31:48

game. But that's that's kind of

31:51

what it's about. It's just one

31:51

of those fun little things. But

31:54

then five cash bags enter the

31:54

vehicle, and then the bullets

31:58

start flying. So you'll get some

31:58

things like some different cards

32:03

that have abilities like

32:03

sharpshooter, which will let you

32:05

shoot a couple extra times,

32:05

you'd get some things like

32:08

chloroform, because who doesn't

32:08

want to chloroform their next

32:11

neighbor, you know, the adjacent

32:11

player to the to the right or

32:15

left of you. And then there's of

32:15

course, you can get a shotgun,

32:18

which will shoot you know, Jason

32:18

players. So it definitely makes

32:21

for an interesting way to play

32:21

the game. And it is just fun

32:27

when you are the rival. And you

32:27

make everybody else believe

32:32

you're on the crew. You get to

32:32

having like two people left. One

32:37

of them's your fellow rival. And

32:37

there's a crew member and then

32:40

just going like this. Hey, bang,

32:40

and it's so much fun,

32:44

huh? Yeah, so I've

32:44

actually played this game with

32:47

Chris, you know, a couple of

32:47

other friends. And something

32:51

happened in that game that kind

32:51

of gave me away as a cop. And

32:54

this kind of is the perfect

32:54

example of why I'm not a huge

32:57

fan of hidden traitors games. So

32:57

I was a cop. And I was given the

33:01

opportunity to search the deck

33:01

for cards. And because I didn't

33:06

immediately pick cash, I was

33:06

outed as someone who was not on

33:11

the crew. And like, I don't know

33:11

how you avoid that, I would have

33:14

have had to have been familiar

33:14

with all the cards and been able

33:18

to very quickly pick something,

33:18

I think

33:21

what would be usually as

33:21

a cop, what is a good route to

33:24

go is to take a cash bag, just

33:24

to at least once and throughout

33:29

the game, take the cash bag and

33:29

pass it to somebody that is not

33:33

a fellow cop. That way you at

33:33

least kind of get some of the

33:37

heat off of you, so to speak.

33:37

And then any cash bag after

33:40

that, just keep passing it to

33:40

your fellow cop. And that way,

33:44

you're just kind of like,

33:44

alright, it's good. Yeah. Or if

33:47

you find out who the sticky

33:47

finger person is, there's a

33:50

sticky finger crew member that

33:50

has to keep all the cash bags.

33:53

So that will cause them to get

33:53

looked at and possibly shot

33:57

later on. But it's a great idea

33:57

to have you pass the cash back

34:00

to them to basically kind of,

34:00

you know, mess with everybody

34:04

else.

34:05

Mm hmm. But yeah, and

34:05

going back to what Chris was

34:08

saying about, you know, being

34:08

that rival member like, it feels

34:12

so good. That's what happened in

34:12

my game with him. I felt like I

34:17

knew who Chris was the whole

34:17

time. And I wasn't on the crew.

34:21

So like, I didn't feel betrayed.

34:21

But I saw the shock from from

34:26

everybody else when he revealed

34:26

himself. And that is definitely

34:30

a fun component of hidden

34:30

traitor games is like that big

34:33

reveal and everybody going. No,

34:38

it's so much fun. I

34:38

think that's what makes social

34:41

deduction games enjoyable. A lot

34:41

of people, you know, there's

34:44

people that don't enjoy it, but

34:44

there's something about that

34:46

rush of knowing that you've been

34:46

deceiving all of your friends

34:50

for as long as you have. And

34:50

then you have this big reveal.

34:53

Yeah,

34:54

so I've played probably

34:54

1520 Maybe 30 Different rounds

35:00

of hidden traitor games. I have

35:00

literally only been a traitor

35:04

like twice. I never get it. That

35:04

being said, Rachel always looks

35:09

at me like you're the traitor,

35:09

aren't you? No, I'm not.

35:13

Mm hmm. You really have

35:13

to learn how to do a poker face

35:16

to and try not to Netta the

35:16

game. That's a big thing, too,

35:19

is like, learn how to be

35:19

yourself. If you can be yourself

35:23

without giving it away, then it

35:23

works out really well. It's the

35:26

people that quickly change their

35:26

demeanor as they're playing.

35:31

Yeah, that they give everything

35:31

away. It's like, okay, you're a

35:34

cop. I can tell. You're acting

35:34

completely different from

35:37

yourself. Yeah. Whereas like, if

35:37

I'm the werewolf, I'm going to

35:40

blame everybody else. I'm going

35:40

to try to get everybody else

35:42

killed. Because I think that

35:42

they're the werewolf. I mean,

35:45

that's, that's what's happening.

35:45

No, stop pointing at me. I know.

35:48

It's you. I know. It's you. So

35:48

you need to die. So you know,

35:52

just kind of have fun and then

35:52

and then he killed people and

35:55

it's great.

35:56

Alright, Jake, what's a good hidden traitor game that you want to talk about?

35:59

Battlestar Galactica, also

35:59

known as unfathomable now, but

36:03

there's an issue with the

36:03

publication rights to Battlestar

36:06

Galactica, merchandise at the

36:06

moment. So the company that was

36:11

previously making the Battlestar

36:11

Galactica board game is no

36:14

longer able to do that. So they

36:14

have now created a game

36:17

unfathomable, which is really

36:17

basically the exact same game

36:21

from what I'm told. I've never

36:21

played Battlestar Galactica, I

36:25

have played unfathomable and

36:25

it's almost the exact same

36:29

concept like you're on a boat

36:29

instead of a starship, like you

36:32

are on a boat doing the same

36:32

thing. And there's no Cylons.

36:36

There are Lovecraftian monsters

36:36

that are coming to destroy you

36:40

and your ship. And there are

36:40

traitors on your boat. That

36:43

being said, there's like two

36:43

different times that you get

36:46

your loyalty cards. And at the

36:46

beginning, there could be none.

36:50

There could be no traitors. And

36:50

then halfway through your

36:52

voyage, somebody turns or two

36:52

people turn, which is what

36:56

happened when we played this

36:56

game. And I was going to talk

36:59

about this more on our

36:59

experiences section. But I'll

37:01

just do it here because we're

37:01

talking about unfathomable. The

37:04

reason I'm not a huge fan of

37:04

this is because I worked so

37:08

hard. I worked so hard.

37:08

Literally, I needed one turn, I

37:14

was next. And we would have won

37:14

the game. But one person who I

37:18

thought was an A traitor was and

37:18

had he not revealed himself that

37:23

turn, I would have won, we would

37:23

have won. Yeah. But like

37:27

legitimately. So the way that it

37:27

works is you have to, you have

37:30

to spend actions to progress the

37:30

boat by shoveling coal,

37:35

basically. And I spent like the

37:35

whole game in the coal room,

37:39

shoveling coal. And I got to so

37:39

far doing that, like I got us

37:44

more than halfway by myself. And

37:44

so there's like these random

37:49

souls, these random passengers

37:49

that get put on the outside. And

37:52

if you lose too many of them,

37:52

the whole game is over and the

37:56

cultists are traitors win. And

37:56

if we hadn't lost one more of

38:00

those, I would have won. So I

38:00

don't know. I feel like I worked

38:03

so hard. You know, earlier,

38:03

you're saying well, I need to

38:07

carry us to a win. I did carry

38:07

carry this so far.

38:12

Yeah, well, okay, so

38:12

this kind of touches on why I'm

38:15

not a fan of fully cooperative

38:15

games. Because, again, like you

38:19

can have that same kind of

38:19

situation where you're not

38:21

screwed over by another person.

38:21

But you're screwed over just by

38:25

the game itself. Because

38:25

cooperative games are tend to be

38:28

designed to be difficult. It's

38:28

not supposed to be easy. And you

38:33

work so hard. And then the

38:33

zombies still kill you all

38:36

right, or whatever.

38:38

And I work really hard.

38:40

I get that feeling. I

38:40

understand that. But then the

38:43

hidden traitor aspect of it,

38:43

like adds that you thought you

38:47

were okay with this person. You

38:47

thought this person was helping

38:50

you and on the same side as you.

38:50

It's just that heartbreak when

38:53

they're not

38:54

so good. It's so

38:57

so that's why I'm, I don't

38:57

know, got a bitter taste in my

39:01

mouth on hidden traitors games.

39:01

Oh,

39:05

I feel sorry for you.

39:05

But

39:07

that's, that's kind of

39:07

what my experience has been with

39:10

hidden traitors, though. It's

39:10

like, it can go so well until

39:14

the turn. And then it's just all

39:14

downhill.

39:17

So this is starting to

39:17

get into our experiences

39:20

section. But I have played

39:20

Battlestar Galactica and

39:24

unfathomable now, so I can

39:24

confirm that the same game. But

39:28

this is kind of part of the

39:28

conversation that I wanted to

39:31

come back to with Chris. I feel

39:31

like I have to, I have to be in

39:35

the right mood for a hidden

39:35

traitor game. And, Chris, you've

39:38

got to tell me if this is a

39:38

problem with me or if this is

39:41

the problem with the people I'm

39:41

playing the game with. Okay.

39:44

You're going into a game where

39:44

you know that there's going to

39:46

be a traitor at some point

39:46

somebody is not on your side. So

39:51

what I do is I'm very analytical

39:51

of everything that everyone is

39:55

doing. And I'm I end up pointing

39:55

the finger a lot, even when I'm

39:59

not the trade It's not as

39:59

something to like, throw off

40:01

suspicion. It's something that's

40:01

like, well, you're acting weird.

40:05

I don't know if I can trust you.

40:05

And so in that unfathomable

40:08

game, I actually did throw Jake

40:08

into the brig, even though he

40:14

wasn't the traitor. Oh,

40:16

that's right. That's

40:16

right. How did you know? We

40:19

would have one?

40:22

There was actually no

40:22

traitor. At that point in the

40:25

game. Everybody was on the same

40:25

side. But I thought Jake was

40:28

acting suspicious. And I thought

40:28

I caught him in a lie. And so I

40:32

throw him in the break.

40:35

You just paranoid.

40:35

Paranoid,

40:38

my sister says like,

40:38

this is why she doesn't like to

40:41

play hidden traitor games with

40:41

me, because I'm always pointing

40:44

the finger like, you're the

40:44

Cylon. I knew it. I saw it. You

40:47

did a thing. You said something

40:47

weird. I don't know, you're a

40:50

Cylon. I can't trust you. So

40:50

tell me, Chris, is that how

40:54

you're supposed to behave?

40:58

The way that I go into

40:58

it, I mean, some people are like

41:00

that some people are not like

41:00

for me, I just go into it and

41:04

try to just stir up as much

41:04

chaos wherever I can. Whether or

41:08

not I'm on the good team or on

41:08

the bad team. It's just there's

41:11

something fun about the chaotic

41:11

nature of the game. And one of

41:15

my experiences, I know what I

41:15

talked about my experience with

41:18

one game, there's something just

41:18

really enjoyable about going

41:22

into it. It's good to analyze,

41:22

it's good to analyze. But the

41:25

one thing is if you overanalyze,

41:25

you kind of lose the fun aspect

41:29

of it. At some point, you turn

41:29

it more into a strategy and it's

41:33

like, there's no strategy to the

41:33

duction game like that. I like

41:38

werewolf. Maybe Battlestar

41:38

Galactica has a little bit of

41:41

it, maybe maybe I'm fallible has

41:41

a little bit of it. I mean, even

41:44

even Yeah, you can definitely

41:44

start figuring things out as

41:47

you're playing bad guys. But

41:47

when you get into a game, like

41:50

werewolf or get into a game,

41:50

like blood on the clock tower,

41:53

there is no strategy. It's just

41:53

you analyze a little bit, you go

41:57

with it, and then you try to

41:57

basically create a popularity of

42:01

getting people to kill. It's so

42:01

much fun.

42:04

Well, yeah, so I don't

42:04

know, I still think I need to be

42:06

in the right mood for hitting

42:06

traitor game. And I think that

42:09

for some, for some people, it's

42:09

just hard to get past some of

42:13

that. Just the way that that

42:13

plays when I think that the

42:16

people that we hang out with and

42:16

play games with most of the time

42:20

don't necessarily enjoy that

42:20

type of game as much as we'll

42:23

do. And that's

42:24

okay. Like people people don't have to like it people people don't have to like

42:26

it interior was there's games

42:29

that are close to a hidden

42:29

traitor type style, like Venice

42:32

among us. There's games, like,

42:32

like he said, I'm traveling

42:35

Battlestar Galactica, there's

42:35

games, like don't mess with

42:38

Cthulhu. There's, there's games

42:38

like that, where you're trying

42:41

to accomplish different tasks,

42:41

and there will be little bit of

42:43

that hidden traitor trying to,

42:43

you know, try to get you off

42:46

track. But, you know, at the end

42:46

of the day, it's ultimately what

42:50

you enjoy to do. And if, if

42:50

that's not your thing, that's

42:53

okay. Yeah. Even though I'm

42:53

silently judging you right now.

42:56

Oh,

42:56

no. All right. So we've

42:56

talked a lot about various types

43:02

of cooperative games, we're

43:02

going to wrap up by just

43:05

mentioning, the recommendations

43:05

that we have for our listeners

43:09

cooperative games to go check

43:09

out for this reason or another

43:13

slash, what kind of cooperative

43:13

games are we looking forward to

43:16

that we haven't had a chance to

43:16

play yet? So Jake, go ahead.

43:20

I keep seeing information

43:20

on this game called Spirit

43:24

Island, I think it looks really

43:24

cool. I have not played it yet.

43:28

But from what I understand you,

43:28

as a player, take control of a

43:33

god or a deity that has power on

43:33

this island, and your fellow

43:39

deities are trying to resist

43:39

this rising tide of colonialism

43:45

that these sailors are coming to

43:45

try to colonize your island. So

43:49

you're using these powers to

43:49

deter them from doing that. It

43:52

sounds really cool. I really

43:52

want to play it. It's kind of

43:55

expensive. It's like 80 bucks

43:55

for the game. And Rachel isn't

43:59

typically a fan of cooperative

43:59

games, so I haven't really

44:02

bought it yet. So that's one I'm

44:02

looking forward to. I have the

44:05

Dark Souls board game, which I

44:05

haven't tried yet. Because if

44:09

you know anything about us as

44:09

podcasters and board game

44:13

enthusiast, I don't read rules,

44:13

and Rachel has zero desire to

44:17

play this game. So I have to

44:17

read the rules in order to play

44:20

this game. And that's not gonna

44:20

happen. So that's why we haven't

44:26

tried it yet.

44:28

Yeah, okay. So I

44:28

wouldn't say I have zero desire.

44:31

But I have told Jake, that this

44:31

is his game. And he has to teach

44:35

it to us if he wants to play it.

44:35

I don't feel like that's

44:39

unreasonable out of the

44:39

whatever. 100 some games that we

44:43

have, that he reads the rules

44:43

for one game. Mm hmm.

44:47

That's a hard game. Okay,

44:47

so as far as recommendations, if

44:53

I'm going to recommend something

44:53

to a beginner for a fully

44:56

cooperative game, I would

44:56

definitely recommend one of the

44:59

Forbidden SIRs Forbidden Island

44:59

desert sky, definitely do that.

45:03

It's pretty approachable, it's

45:03

still challenging. But it's not

45:08

something that's going to take a

45:08

long time, it's fairly quick to

45:11

play as far as a board game

45:11

goes. For somebody more

45:14

advanced, I would definitely

45:14

recommend crisis for our semi

45:17

cooperative game is hard.

45:17

There's a lot going on. There's

45:21

a lot to manage. But I like

45:21

that. And that's why I would

45:24

recommend this to a more

45:24

advanced player.

45:26

Oh, I definitely agree

45:26

that like the forbidden series

45:30

is a great place to start, it

45:30

will introduce you to a lot of

45:33

concepts that cooperative games

45:33

often have like having a

45:37

specific role, you know, there's

45:37

a certain ability that you can

45:40

do that not everyone else can

45:40

do. And that's what makes you a

45:43

special member of the team. And

45:43

everybody has to cooperate and

45:46

use their different roles

45:46

together. So I definitely agree

45:49

with that. As far as my

45:49

recommendations, I really love

45:54

betrayal at house on the hill.

45:54

And so we categorize that as a

45:58

semi cooperative game. This is

45:58

one of those ones that I'm

46:01

pretty much always willing to

46:01

play. And I love all the

46:05

different endings that it can

46:05

have. So the base game comes

46:09

with 50 Different haunts. And

46:09

then there is an expansion that

46:13

you can purchase, which comes

46:13

with an additional 50 haunts.

46:16

That's just so many options for

46:16

what you can do that even if you

46:20

do get a repeat, like, Oh, hey,

46:20

we played this one before. It

46:23

was like four years ago, and you

46:23

don't really remember what

46:25

happened. Right? Right. It's

46:25

okay to play it again. I love

46:30

that game a lot. That would be

46:30

kind of my beginner's

46:33

recommendation, I guess. And

46:33

then my more advanced

46:36

recommendation would be

46:36

etherfields. And like I said,

46:39

we're gonna do a whole series on

46:39

that. But it is story driven.

46:45

And I love the fact that nothing

46:45

really has to be based on

46:49

reality. It really opens things

46:49

up. And you guys know me, I love

46:54

the manic games. It definitely

46:54

has that thematic, immersive,

47:00

just feeling to it. I love it.

47:00

Things that I'm looking forward

47:03

to. I've actually been keeping

47:03

an eye out for sleeping gods.

47:08

That is something that I think

47:08

was a Kickstarter game and

47:13

hasn't been available. Like I

47:13

think they did a second

47:16

printing. And it was available

47:16

on Amazon for like two days, and

47:19

I didn't pick it up, and it's

47:19

gone again. So

47:24

you just need to go to

47:24

the red Raven store website, you

47:27

have better chances of finding

47:27

it on their website, they need

47:30

to probably on a third party

47:30

store.

47:33

Okay, that's good to

47:33

know. But that's also another

47:36

story driven kind of campaign

47:36

game that looks very

47:38

interesting. The art is

47:38

beautiful and just very

47:42

attractive to me. And then for

47:42

my birthday, Jake's mom also got

47:48

me forgotten waters, which is

47:48

like a pirate story campaign

47:52

game. We haven't had a chance to

47:52

play that with anyone yet. So

47:54

I'm looking forward to that as

47:54

well. All right, what about you,

47:57

Chris? I see a massive list that

47:57

continues to grow here on our

48:01

behind the scenes outline.

48:03

I know I'm just like,

48:03

things come to me so quickly.

48:06

Alright, so here we go. So

48:06

Thanos rising. This is from the

48:09

opposite cooperative game, where

48:09

you're playing through the

48:12

Infinity saga and fighting off

48:12

Thanos's minions and trying to

48:16

survive before he gets all the

48:16

gems, snaps his fingers and ends

48:19

the game. There's a few

48:19

different ways you can lose but

48:23

the one way you can win is by

48:23

defeating seven of the villains.

48:26

However, if you want to add a

48:26

little chaos and fun to it, try

48:29

to kill all of them and see how

48:29

long you last. Next one will be

48:33

Hogwarts battle. This is based

48:33

on the Harry Potter franchise.

48:36

Shawn Fletcher friend of ours

48:36

actually worked on the mechanic

48:40

that made this game. So Hogwarts

48:40

battle of fun cooperative, where

48:44

you kind of like unlock

48:44

different chapters throughout

48:47

their a potter series. Then next

48:47

up, we're going to say dead of

48:50

winter Plaid Hat Games. Like I

48:50

said earlier, how fun is it to

48:54

be a traitor and kill your

48:54

friends. Next up, we've got

48:57

chronicles of crime missed by

48:57

lucky duck games, you can play

49:00

it solo, but cooperate is a good

49:00

way of doing it. You're trying

49:04

to solve a murder mystery,

49:04

you're scanning QR codes using a

49:07

mobile app, you're looking at

49:07

the crime scenes, it's so much

49:10

fun, highly recommend it. next

49:10

pandemic from Z Man games

49:13

pandemic is one of those games

49:13

where there's a virus and guess

49:17

what, there's not just one

49:17

virus, there's usually four

49:20

viruses. So you are trying to go

49:20

ahead and cure the different

49:23

diseases. But if you want to add

49:23

a little extra difficulty, not

49:27

only are you going to try to

49:27

cure them, but you're also going

49:30

to try to eradicate them. And

49:30

then you can add epidemic cards

49:34

which can cause more problems

49:34

throughout the game to boost up

49:37

the difficulty in the

49:37

replayability. After that we

49:40

have Scooby Doo escape from the

49:40

Haunted Mansion from the OP one

49:44

of the best kind of cooperative

49:44

games that I've played where

49:47

you're kind of like escape room

49:47

style game very well put

49:50

together. The actual designers

49:50

of the game put like these nice

49:54

touches to make it feel like

49:54

you're actually watching a

49:57

Saturday morning cartoon. Then

49:57

of course too many bones from

50:00

Chip theory games, you're gonna

50:00

pay a chunk of change for this

50:04

game. But there's so much dice,

50:04

there's so much to it. And it's

50:07

just it's amazing little story

50:07

that you're basically going on

50:11

this path in this journey. At

50:11

some point, you're going to face

50:14

the big boss, and probably get

50:14

destroyed. So that's one thing,

50:18

but it's such an enjoyable game

50:18

that you may lose, and you'll

50:21

pick back up and you'll, you'll

50:21

be ready to play again. So

50:24

that's really well done.

50:26

I'm also getting that one.

50:26

Oh, it's

50:28

so good. It's so good.

50:28

Core quest is one that was done

50:31

by Dan and Cora who's that's a

50:31

father and daughter combo, where

50:35

Dan and his daughter were just

50:35

basically in the pandemic and

50:38

saying, Hey, let's make a board

50:38

game. And they made a board game

50:40

and it's like a dungeon crawling

50:40

game. And what's really cute is

50:44

that the artwork is done by

50:44

kids, and then touched up by a

50:48

designer, like a graphic artist

50:48

and stuff like that. So it's

50:51

really cool. And then you can

50:51

actually draw your own pictures

50:54

and make your own little avatars

50:54

to play as a different

50:56

characters in the game. So it's

50:56

very well done. It's cute. It is

51:01

one of the Kickstarters that I

51:01

was so thankful that I back

51:03

because it's just well done.

51:03

Next up, we've got truck door,

51:07

the board game. If anybody's a

51:07

Homestar Runner fan, you know of

51:11

truck door. So trog door is the

51:11

burn inator trying to burn and

51:16

eat the peasants and the

51:16

thatched roof cottages and the

51:19

countryside and if you burn

51:19

everything you would. So that's

51:24

a fun one. And then last but not

51:24

least, this game is near and

51:27

dear to my heart. This is a

51:27

Princess Bride storybook game

51:31

that's from Ravensburger where

51:31

you are actually trying to get

51:35

the characters to go to

51:35

different places and do

51:38

different actions and you're

51:38

doing as cooperative campaign.

51:42

What's nice about it is that you

51:42

know, you just feel like you're

51:45

watching the movie again. And

51:45

that's something nice like that

51:48

is one of That's my wife and I

51:48

our favorite movie. She walked

51:51

down the aisle to the theme of

51:51

the Princess Bride being played

51:54

on the piano. So yeah, Princess

51:54

Bride by Ravensbruck and for

51:58

looking forward to games.

51:58

Considering that I do like

52:01

cooperative games, and I do like

52:01

some of my co op and hidden

52:03

traitor games, I would say the

52:03

ones that I'm looking forward to

52:07

I have chronicles of crime 2400

52:07

on my table right now getting

52:11

ready to possibly open that up

52:11

and very soon and do a

52:16

playthrough of it. More than one

52:16

playthrough, of course. And then

52:19

the one that I want to try at

52:19

some point, if somebody has a

52:23

copy of it, is the betrayal at

52:23

house on the hill, Scooby Doo

52:27

addition, because who doesn't

52:27

want to go? swings, like, I'm so

52:30

scared Scoob and just have some

52:30

fun with it, you know, just be

52:34

able to play a little bit of Scooby Doo.

52:36

I would also like to check out that game.

52:38

I'm very interested in

52:38

the too many bones. I'm very

52:40

interested in The Princess

52:40

Bride. Alright, well,

52:43

that is our episode on

52:43

cooperative games. Hopefully

52:47

everyone feels sufficiently

52:47

educated about it. Chris, thank

52:51

you so much for coming on. We

52:51

loved having you. And Jake and I

52:55

have both come on your Twitch

52:55

channel and played games with

52:59

you before? Why don't you go

52:59

ahead and give our listeners a

53:02

little bit of a plug and tell us

53:02

where we can find you and what

53:05

you're doing.

53:06

So you find us on

53:06

YouTube, which Facebook,

53:09

Instagram, Twitter. But yeah,

53:09

you can go on to twitch we have

53:14

Tuesday nights we do our RPGs

53:14

and such, we're playing through

53:19

an RPG campaign at about 9pm

53:19

Eastern Standard Time. And then

53:23

on Thursdays, we do two

53:23

different things. We do a

53:26

people's employee podcast, which

53:26

was Justin and Chelsea myself,

53:30

where we interview members in

53:30

the board game community. And

53:32

sometimes we talk about nonprofits that they're interested in. And then right

53:34

afterwards, our family usually

53:38

will play a game where we call

53:38

it family game time. And we'll

53:41

just play some games, so it's

53:41

always fun. And then on

53:45

Saturdays on Twitch, we do

53:45

what's called the CVG variety

53:48

hour where either our family

53:48

will play something or I'll play

53:51

something like a video game. Or

53:51

I'll invite other people on to

53:55

just play some games virtually

53:55

and have some fun. We've done

53:58

wavelength before. And we've

53:58

done left for dead two before.

54:02

So it's like a complete mixed

54:02

bag of games and fun that we try

54:06

to do on Saturdays. And then all

54:06

throughout the week, Mondays,

54:09

Wednesdays and Fridays, we have

54:09

content that is going up on

54:12

YouTube, whether it's what

54:12

Monday is called punchable

54:15

Monday where we open the boxes,

54:15

and I like to call them punch

54:18

bubbles where you're punching

54:18

all the chips out of the

54:21

cardboard. And then Wednesday is

54:21

what we call How Does It Work

54:25

Wednesday where we do a brief

54:25

overview of a game. And then

54:27

Friday is what we call deep

54:27

thoughts where we talk a little

54:30

bit about, you know, something

54:30

special to us whether it be the

54:33

legacy of my mom and her

54:33

inspiration for the charity

54:36

board gamer talking about

54:36

conventions, or even a complete

54:40

episode where we talk

54:40

specifically about our love for

54:43

Justin bird. It's there, right?

54:46

Nice. That's lovely. I

54:46

love you know the things that

54:50

you guys are doing. You put out

54:50

a lot of content. And I feel

54:54

like I've met a lot of just

54:54

really great people through your

54:57

channel and like playing games

54:57

with you guys. So It's been a

55:01

great experience for us. And I

55:01

highly recommend that people go

55:04

check out the charity board

55:04

gamer content, because it's fun

55:08

and interesting. And there's

55:08

always something new on there.

55:11

That's true. Absolutely. I appreciate that. You know, the

55:13

one thing I've learned in in

55:16

this hobby is that you put

55:16

yourself around the people that

55:19

you want to be around, and you

55:19

try to build a community that

55:21

you know that you would want to

55:21

spend time, whether it be

55:24

playing games, or not playing

55:24

games, like I could see myself

55:27

going out to dinner with a lot

55:27

of the people that I've made

55:30

friends with in the hobby. And

55:30

we actually have done that we

55:33

have something like that. It's

55:33

just it's one of those things

55:35

that you want to do you want to

55:35

culture and cultivate the people

55:39

that you're around. And you want

55:39

to build that community as much

55:41

as you can. And when you

55:41

cultivate that community, to

55:44

where you want it to be. It

55:44

helps with your mental health,

55:47

it helps with your outlook on

55:47

life. And then during those

55:50

times, you can be an

55:50

encouragement to somebody, but

55:52

also they can be an

55:52

encouragement to you. And it's a

55:55

nice balance between the two.

55:55

Yeah,

55:57

that's a good words to end on.

55:59

Thank you again, Chris,

55:59

for coming on the show. I

56:01

appreciate it. Anytime.

56:03

And there you have it.

56:03

That is our deep dive into

56:07

cooperative games. Thank you

56:07

guys so much for listening. Hit

56:11

us up on Facebook, Twitter and

56:11

Instagram at so board podcasts.

56:15

That's S O B Oard. Podcast. We

56:15

love hearing from you any

56:19

experiences that you have with

56:19

cooperative games? How will you

56:23

like them or not? You know, are

56:23

you more on my side Chris's

56:27

side, Jake side. You can also

56:27

find short stories and other

56:31

things that we've been playing

56:31

and doing recently on all of

56:35

those social media outlets. And

56:35

you can also email us at We are

56:39

so board. That's w e a r e s o

56:39

Bo ar [email protected]. Lastly, make

56:43

sure that you subscribe so that

56:43

you receive notifications when

56:47

new episodes are available. It's

56:47

also super helpful. If you have

56:52

like two seconds to leave us a

56:52

review. You can do that on

56:55

Spotify now. All it is is

56:55

clicking how many stars do you

56:59

think we are? So like that's

56:59

helpful for other people to find

57:03

our podcast and you know, to

57:03

spread the word about how

57:07

awesome we

57:08

are. We also want to give

57:08

a shout out to the people who

57:10

knew we were reviewing

57:10

cooperative games based on the

57:13

picture we posted last week. So

57:13

congrats to Chris Foltz Roco

57:18

rora, Aly Borden, Andrew Wolf,

57:18

Adam Butler, and Vinny from

57:23

Twitter. Awesome job. We also

57:23

would like to thank Mitchell

57:26

Mims. He's the designer of our

57:26

art. He is currently accepting

57:29

commissions. So check him out at

57:29

Mims, co Sa ra on Instagram or

57:35

on his website at Mitchell Mims.

57:35

That's M i c h e o m i m s.ca RR

57:41

d.co. And don't

57:43

forget, we are doing a

57:43

giveaway right now for the next

57:46

two weeks of Dune Imperium. So

57:46

that is open worldwide. As long

57:51

as there are no shipping

57:51

restrictions to your country. I

57:54

think that's very, very few

57:54

countries that have that from

57:57

the United States. So go ahead

57:57

and enter. It's free and you

58:01

actually get a reward if you

58:01

listen to our previous episode

58:04

and know the secret code.

58:05

It's true. Also, once

58:05

again, I am streaming on Twitch

58:08

like I said at the beginning of

58:08

the episode, you can find me on

58:11

Twitch at Naughty Doc 541 Nau GH

58:11

TYDOC 541. And I keep my

58:17

schedule up to date because it

58:17

changes each week so you'll be

58:20

able to see when I'm on

58:21

Alright, thanks for

58:21

listening and we will see you

58:24

next time. Bye.

58:25

Bye.