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Welcome to Wellness with Ella, the

0:15

deliciously Ella podcast. This

0:18

is a podcast that aims to inspire you,

0:20

to empower you, to leave you feeling uplifted.

0:24

Every week, me and my guests will candidly

0:26

reveal our personal journeys of

0:28

transforming times of great difficulty

0:31

into times of enormous personal

0:33

growth. How did our guests get to where

0:35

they are today? What have been their biggest

0:38

challenges? What practices

0:40

and habits have really genuinely moved

0:42

the needle for them? And how do they

0:43

keep moving forward? Wellness

0:45

with Ella has the simple mission of giving

0:47

you unfiltered, empowering conversations

0:50

that give you the tools, knowledge and inspiration

0:52

to transform your own life and your

0:55

own health.

0:58

My guests today truly epitomize

1:01

what this season of the show has been about.

1:04

The idea that we all struggle with our health,

1:07

that nobody is immune from life's challenges,

1:10

that you never know what the person next to you is going

1:12

through, that personal transformations

1:14

can happen at any point in our lives and

1:17

that whilst all of our journeys are different,

1:20

the thread that really seems to link everybody's

1:22

transformation together is learning

1:24

to embrace vulnerability and sharing

1:27

those challenges with the people around us. My

1:30

guests today are Ian Redpath and

1:32

Jeremy Chopra, better known

1:34

as All on the Board. If you've

1:36

ever been on the Tube in London, you'll have

1:38

seen their poems and their creative messages

1:41

on the boards around the stations. Lots

1:44

of people assume that these are written by a team

1:46

of people, that perhaps it's a scheme created

1:48

by Transport for London, but actually

1:50

the whole premise was started and continues

1:53

to be run by two guys Ian

1:55

and Jeremy both of whom were working

1:57

on the and have been through incredibly

1:59

challenging

2:00

with their wellbeing, and

2:02

they wanted to ensure that no one else felt alone

2:04

in their own challenges. So as

2:07

they watched, millions of people commute each day. They

2:09

felt that simple messages of hope, inspiration,

2:13

honesty and clarity that you are never

2:15

alone

2:15

in your struggles would maybe help. They've

2:18

since been seen by tens of millions, if

2:20

not hundreds of millions of people, gone completely

2:23

viral with their wisdom, their vulnerability, and

2:26

the boards have been shared by so many people

2:28

from celebrities like Katy Perry and Michelle

2:30

Obama. And I was so

2:32

excited to speak with In and Jeremy to find

2:35

out how their personal experiences have

2:37

led them to create this online community

2:39

with such a positive message and a

2:41

universal impact.

2:44

And in the conversation we're talking about finding

2:46

ways to connect with one another, the

2:48

importance of both compassion and understanding

2:51

and both of them have some really moving

2:53

stories about their early lives, the

2:55

experiences with their mental health and

2:58

the times they've been able to provide help and support

3:00

for people during their most vulnerable moments.

3:03

It's a very revealing and honest

3:05

conversation and I really hope you enjoy

3:08

it.

3:08

One warning though, we do touch

3:11

on one of their experiences with eating disorders.

3:13

So if that's something that you would like to skip, then

3:15

I would really recommend moving on to a

3:17

different episode. Otherwise, let's

3:20

get into the show.

3:24

Well, Ian, Jeremy, thank you so much

3:26

for joining us today. Thank you for having us. Thank

3:28

you for having us. It's lovely. Yeah. It's so interesting

3:31

because I think the whole season, this

3:33

is our last episode of this season, we've really been

3:35

exploring the power of vulnerability

3:37

and the fact that we all have these

3:40

stories, right? Know

3:42

all our lives are completely different, all our challenges

3:44

are completely different. You know, I do believe you can

3:46

never really understand because we've never

3:48

walked in each other's shoes. That being

3:50

said, life is just

3:53

anything but linear and I think we're not necessarily

3:55

completely open about what that

3:58

actually looks like and the power of un- vulnerability

4:00

when we take down those walls to actually

4:02

talk much more honestly about our experiences

4:05

be that with physical health mental health grief

4:07

loss and That connection

4:09

that we create as a result and

4:12

the reason I'm so happy that you guys are here for

4:14

the finale of the seasons I

4:16

feel like what you've created is the absolute

4:19

epitome of that premise this idea

4:21

of community through vulnerability of Sharing

4:25

and of showing people that they're never ever

4:27

alone So I wondered if

4:29

you could introduce yourself and the concept

4:31

of all on the board. I mean, for anyone who's ever been

4:33

to London or been on the Tube, which is probably a

4:36

very large proportion of our listeners, they will

4:38

have seen your boards or they've probably seen

4:40

the memes go viral of those amazing

4:43

quotes and poems that you share. But will you tell

4:45

us a little bit about yourselves and what you do?

4:48

You want to go for it? Yeah, why not? My

4:51

name's Ian Redpath. I used to be a

4:53

very good dancer, but not so much now. And

4:56

yeah, myself and Jeremy, he's going to introduce

4:59

himself. Yeah, we both work for London

5:01

Underground and we started doing all on the board

5:03

in 2017 and I don't

5:06

know, we've always been creative spirits and, you

5:08

know, we've got our own health and mental health

5:10

conditions. And, you know, it's just

5:12

a distraction as

5:14

to what we're going through. And then,

5:17

yeah, it's just, you know, we

5:19

kind of we want to get the message out there that

5:22

people are not alone, however lonely they feel. if

5:24

they are on their own, there are people going through

5:26

similar things. And wouldn't it be amazing

5:28

if we could get all the lonely feeling people

5:30

in the world in the room together, in a virtual

5:32

room and just say, that you're not alone, let's get talking,

5:35

you know, and it's like, no, the London Underground,

5:37

we always say it's it's one of the busiest places

5:39

in the world, and yet it can feel like the

5:41

loneliest place. You know, like I was on

5:44

the train today during the peak and literally

5:46

everyone is on their own journeys. And it's crazy

5:48

to think that, like, we all like,

5:50

you know, crammed together. And yet none of us are saying

5:53

like, hello to one another, you know, and it's, uh, I guess,

5:55

you know, that's what life is kind of like,

5:57

but, uh, we, we want to, you night

5:59

getting in. message

6:00

out there, no one's ever alone. We

6:02

may be in different boats, but we

6:04

do face similar storms, and let's

6:07

get through it together.

6:09

Yeah, we're lucky that we work in

6:11

a team on the underground, not

6:13

all on the board, it's just us on all of the board. For

6:16

our day job on the underground, we work in a team that

6:18

allows us to work all over the network, which

6:21

is why even though it's only two of us, our boards

6:23

pop up everywhere because we'll be working a different place

6:25

every day. That gives us the

6:27

opportunity to write different kinds of things

6:29

for different places, sometimes

6:31

changing the name of a station just to make someone laugh

6:34

or sometimes writing about the event that they're going to

6:36

just to extend it a little bit, make

6:39

it a bit more fun inside the journey

6:41

that they're doing on the underground. We've

6:43

just taken that opportunity, I think, to write things

6:45

and just put the message out there and connect people, as you're

6:47

saying. Yeah,

6:49

the communication thing's always been a big thing

6:51

for us because I think before this, as

6:54

you say, we are creative spirits,

6:56

but we've never had the

6:58

outlet before now

7:01

to kind of put our things out there. It's all

7:03

been inside us, on pieces of paper

7:05

at our homes or whatever. We

7:08

came up with this idea one day in 2017. We

7:11

were just

7:12

working and we thought, oh, let's write a little silly

7:14

poem about the

7:16

event that was going on in the O2 that time.

7:19

And then instantly people were taking selfies

7:22

with it and smiling and you just,

7:24

you could see straight away, oh wow, that worked. That

7:26

actually did something. Because actually before that,

7:28

there was just a board that was saying, keep

7:31

right on it. And it was filthy and people were just

7:33

ignoring it. They just walked wherever they want to walk. And

7:36

just by putting a little poem on there, that was a bit of fun.

7:39

It changed the demeanor of people completely.

7:42

You know, they're going to an event that they want to go to,

7:44

but you could see that they were just trying to get

7:46

there as functional, right? It was just getting there. And

7:49

then

7:49

we broke into that and found a way to get

7:51

into

7:53

that headspace and break them

7:55

out of it and say, oh, you're here now. Everything's going to

7:57

be good. And then it was a few months after that, that we

7:59

kind of came up.

8:00

with the mental health stuff, writing

8:02

about what we go through.

8:03

And that stuff was a whole

8:06

other

8:06

whole other thing. It kind of really exploded into

8:09

this bigger, we can really change

8:11

things now we can actually make things better for a lot

8:13

of people. There are people suffering all kinds of

8:15

things out there and they feel alone. And I

8:18

think it was just

8:20

just before we was writing us going

8:22

to start our second book, we were we were trying to think

8:24

of how do we want to approach this? And

8:27

we want it to be a companion because that's what we're trying to do

8:29

sometimes, we're trying to be a companion for people as

8:31

they're coming through that space. And we said

8:33

what's our core things that we do on all in the world and we realised

8:36

it was as you say

8:38

make people realise they're not alone, to

8:40

be kind to themselves

8:42

and to be kind to each other.

8:44

And I think the world would be a better place if we

8:46

did all those three things all the time. Before

8:49

we sort of rewind and start to

8:51

understand what inspired you

8:53

to want to open up that vulnerability

8:55

and share what you'd both been going through, love

8:58

to know is there one or two boards

9:00

or messages or poems that you've shared that have

9:03

resonated the most?

9:04

Do you know what the first one that

9:07

springs to mind is the

9:09

board that we wrote about endometriosis

9:12

and it was just, I mean because

9:15

what it was, I mean like my wife

9:17

really gets bad periods yeah and

9:20

we was looking into it and it was like no this is

9:22

more than sort of bad periods, a symptoms,

9:24

we was like looking into it and me and Jeremy

9:26

was researching it and we just came

9:29

across this condition endometriosis that we

9:31

had never heard about and was like my god people

9:33

go through this you know and

9:34

it's like we kind of like done a

9:36

bit research on it wanted to put it on a board and then

9:38

we was thinking you know why despite

9:41

looking like we're in our mid 20s you know we're

9:43

in our 40s and that yeah you know it's like

9:46

it seemed bonkers for two you know

9:48

men in their 40s to write about endometriosis

9:51

on a board and you know and And

9:53

I think that's one of my proudest moments.

9:56

I love doing all the concert balls

9:58

and the fun balls.

10:00

the celebrities come down for selfies

10:02

and stuff. But yeah, that

10:04

kind of did resonate with a lot of people.

10:08

That's the one that always comes

10:10

to my mind. And purely because we

10:13

do a lot of research when we're writing about conditions,

10:15

unless it's something that we both go through ourselves.

10:19

And obviously we don't go through it. And we

10:21

never heard of it before. And we had

10:23

to do a lot of research. And it was a really tricky one

10:25

because you're looking at you thinking, there is a lot

10:27

of stuff to unpack and put on a board.

10:30

But we do have to do

10:32

a board. It's one of the most pain... It's on the list

10:34

of one of the most painful conditions on earth. And

10:36

it's very common. Yeah. And very

10:38

few people know about it. I mean, if you say the word endometriosis

10:41

to someone in the street, they're going to think you're talking

10:43

about, you know, some kind of plant or something

10:46

like that, maybe, you know,

10:48

osmosis or something like that. But they're

10:50

not going to think that that's one of the most painful things

10:52

around. So we had to do that.

10:55

And it was really tricky. And then when

10:57

we put it out and it got this massive

10:59

response,

11:00

I mean, it's been a universal

11:02

response still to this day. Because

11:04

some of the other boards you put out about conditions, you get

11:06

this massive response of thank you and that's perfect.

11:09

But then you get other people who challenge

11:11

certain parts of it and say, oh, you got that wrong. And

11:14

then we kind of look back at it and try and... But then it kind of gets

11:16

people talking about the condition. Yeah, it's that. That's

11:18

the point, isn't it? It's all about breaking down those barriers,

11:21

isn't it? And removing

11:21

the stigmas and it's

11:24

exactly, which is why almost second back to beginning

11:26

instead of so keen to talk to you guys about this is

11:28

exactly that is that we go through so many things

11:30

and we don't talk about them. And I think it's

11:33

writing them down and sharing them with those 4 million

11:35

people and everyone online every single day

11:37

to highlight the fact that people

11:39

are going through this and to be aware of it and conscious

11:42

of it. And it's incredibly

11:44

powerful. And I'm sure as you're saying, it makes people feel

11:47

very seen.

11:47

Yeah, it's just kind

11:49

of trying to make the invisible visible. You know,

11:52

we don't know what one another is going through. I

11:54

remember telling someone that, you know, I've got ulcerative

11:56

colitis and they're like, Oh yeah, I get that. and

11:59

that was kind of compared. it with their IBS

12:01

sort of thing or that they had been out of curry

12:03

the night before. Oh, I had what you had last

12:05

night. And it's like, well, no, you didn't really.

12:07

It's like, do you know what I mean? So it's just like, you

12:09

know, it's just like, let's talk about our conditions,

12:11

you know, get them out there. It's like, you know,

12:14

you may be on a train and you may see some

12:16

youngster, you know, not getting

12:18

up for an elderly person.

12:21

And it's like, well, there could be a reason why they're not getting

12:23

up. You know, they could be having chronic fatigue,

12:25

chronic pains. And, you know, sometimes Sometimes they get

12:27

dirty looks on the train. It's like, why are you not getting up for

12:30

that person? But they may want to get

12:32

up, but physically they can't get up. It's

12:35

just, I've had it before, people looking at me

12:37

and I've been going through such chronic pain, chronic

12:40

fatigue. I want to get up for someone, give them

12:42

a seat, but I physically can't. It's

12:45

just understanding one another and

12:47

being more empathetic and stuff.

12:50

Absolutely, as you said, the world needs

12:53

a lot more of that. Yeah, do you know what I

12:55

mean? We do try to make people laugh occasionally.

12:57

That's how all on the board happened actually. We were

12:59

writing a TV sitcom at the time while

13:02

we were standing there. And then we started,

13:05

I don't know how we ended up with getting from

13:07

that to talking about

13:09

Craig David songs. But I think it was just because the crowd were

13:11

coming through with someone. No, we were singing Craig David songs

13:13

to one another, I think. Craig David's

13:15

coming through and then we thought, what songs do we know of

13:18

Craig David?

13:19

And we started singing

13:21

really badly some of his songs to each other.

13:23

And we thought, oh, well, let's make a little poem of it. It

13:25

was a really short one by just, there you go. Because

13:27

it was offering directions to the O2,

13:30

but incorporate new songs as well.

13:32

I see, you can imagine walking away to the O2

13:34

and it won't take seven days to get there,

13:36

blah, blah, blah. But yeah, it was good. But

13:39

people often ask us, how do we go from that to the

13:41

mental health stuff that we've gone

13:43

to? And it was just because it

13:45

was just a natural process for us. We're

13:47

just writing about what we like and

13:50

the things that make us tick.

13:51

And we just came up with

13:53

that at that time. And and then we started to realise why didn't

13:55

we write something a bit more personal, you know. Yeah, yeah,

13:58

yeah. And for people to be honest with one another.

14:00

other, you know, I mean, but it's because like, you know, a lot of people

14:02

like kind of look at, you know,

14:05

these perceived perfect photos of people

14:07

online, they're like, why can't I

14:09

have that? But they're not seeing what's going on

14:11

kind of behind the scenes and

14:13

behind the lens and stuff. It's like everyone

14:16

is going through their own sort of dramas and problems

14:18

and you know, it's.

14:19

And were you both

14:21

always open and comfortable talking about it?

14:23

Because I think having a bit of research

14:26

on the both of you, it seems that you've both gone

14:28

through some real challenges, both with

14:30

your mental health and your physical health. I'd

14:32

love to understand a little bit more about how

14:35

that informed this desire to kind

14:37

of break open the conversations

14:39

and share that vulnerability. But within that,

14:41

I'm curious, did you always feel really

14:44

comfortable talking about how

14:46

you felt? I know my experience, like it

14:48

took me so, so long to talk about

14:51

my health and be open

14:51

about it. I was terrible

14:54

at that. I went through my whole teens

14:56

literally from the

14:59

first few months of secondary

15:01

school through university,

15:04

I was a silent person

15:07

just hovering around and it was bad,

15:09

really, really bad. What prompted that?

15:11

I probably already had bad self-esteem

15:13

before I went to secondary school. But

15:16

you're so young, you're just making it through,

15:18

Ryan. And then

15:20

in secondary school, I mean, everyone

15:23

probably recognizes you go to secondary school, especially

15:25

if it's one that's away from

15:26

where you would have been locally,

15:29

you're going to have no friends, you're going to

15:31

have

15:32

to... everything completely brand new. And

15:34

I went secondary school and I had no friends and I

15:36

was really bad at making friends anyway. So I

15:39

made one friend on On the first

15:41

day, it was a boy where

15:43

we were in a queue for lunch

15:46

and then someone bumped into him, he dropped all his coins

15:48

on the ground and he started crying and everyone was just

15:50

walking past him and I decided to stop and help

15:52

him.

15:53

We became friends and for

15:55

the next three months we became inseparable. We were

15:57

just like everything together. is really weird

16:00

because I was this person that nobody liked

16:02

and I was like a social outcast and he was probably

16:04

the most popular person in school suddenly.

16:07

And yet we were together all the time. And

16:10

it was just I think a day before

16:12

we were due back to go to school after

16:14

the Christmas period. In

16:17

the local newspaper there was a report of a

16:19

fire in a house and he had

16:21

sadly died. And

16:23

I only got

16:25

note of it from that newspaper

16:27

report when I was at another friend's house and

16:31

my friend's mum had told me. And

16:34

I still remember that moment she told me and

16:36

I just kind of like did this thing where I kind of pretended

16:38

like,

16:39

I don't know what's kind of going on. I don't

16:41

know if that's real or whatever. And

16:43

I went to the bathroom, locked

16:45

the door and I just like completely

16:48

just went like tears and everything like

16:50

that, but silently. And

16:52

I think that was where things happened

16:54

the silence because I cried

16:56

really

16:57

heavily,

16:58

but they had no idea that I was doing that. Created

17:02

my face with the water from the sink and

17:04

I walked out

17:05

and then never talked about it. And

17:08

then when I went to school,

17:09

the first thing that happened was of course everyone knew

17:11

that we were inseparable and they were all the other kids as they

17:14

do, they would come around you at the dinner table asking,

17:16

oh, well, how did that this happen? And

17:18

so on and so forth. Oh, did you cry? Someone

17:20

said, did you cry? And then I actually said no, you

17:23

know. And I remember that sticking with me

17:25

throughout my school years thinking, Oh, why

17:28

did I say no? You know, I felt really bad

17:30

about that. And and

17:32

I think that just affected me really deeply. It was,

17:34

you know, I guess it was childhood trauma to a certain extent.

17:37

Right.

17:38

And everything just became really internalised

17:41

because it was a defence thing for me. So

17:43

I just went through my whole team years like that. And

17:45

I then had

17:47

I then developed an

17:49

eating disorder. So I don't

17:51

know what's called now, actually. and looked up what it's called now, but

17:53

at the time I think it was called EDNOS, which is like eating

17:56

the sword with no obvious symptom

17:59

where

18:00

It's not, you know, bulimia, anorexia,

18:02

anything like that. It's just different.

18:04

It's just you have an eating disorder, clearly have an eating

18:06

disorder, but you don't have

18:09

a diagnosis that's really quite

18:12

direct. And

18:14

I went through my whole teens and I was extremely

18:19

undernourished, basically, by the time I left

18:21

school. And I was I'm lucky

18:23

to be here, to be quite honest with you. And it wasn't until

18:25

I got into my

18:28

early 20s where

18:31

I had this moment,

18:33

just this weird moment of clarity where I woke

18:35

up one day and there was this sunlight coming through and I just

18:38

realised I'm going to die basically. I

18:40

just heard these words in my head and it was really clear.

18:42

I mean, I'm sure everyone's kind of had

18:44

this day where you just like, everything feels

18:47

really,

18:48

really ridiculously clear. You

18:50

can feel the air, you can feel the dust

18:52

and everything like that. It was like that, it was just for

18:55

that day. But it was enough to

18:57

kind of kick me into gear realising that. And

19:00

from then I started to try and kind

19:02

of

19:03

find a way back. But

19:05

I still probably I would say I

19:07

didn't get into talking about my issues

19:10

until

19:12

probably like 30

19:14

even.

19:15

I mean, you know, so we're talking from the age of 12 until 30.

19:19

I was really bad at talking. I would never be sitting

19:21

here talking like this, or writing

19:23

things on the board, or putting things out in

19:25

podcasts or interviews or books or anything

19:27

like that back then, no way. Even going back 10

19:30

years ago,

19:31

when I first came on the underground,

19:33

certainly probably

19:34

wouldn't be talking like I am now. So all on the

19:36

board has really helped me to do that,

19:39

to kind of come out more and

19:41

be able to do this. I still

19:43

have social anxiety. I still, you know, I can

19:45

still feel those little shakes that you get inside

19:47

you that no one can see. the sweaty

19:49

palms and all that kind of stuff.

19:53

But one of the reasons why I do things like this is

19:55

because I want people to realize that, you

19:57

know,

19:58

That's how much of my life. was

20:01

so difficult purely

20:04

from not talking about the things. Yeah,

20:07

I mean, like I'm really good at defending myself

20:10

from certain situations, but then

20:12

you don't experience so many things because

20:14

of that.

20:15

It's such a powerful example, as

20:17

you said, of the fact that we keep so much inside

20:20

of us and you can be interacting with people

20:22

all day. You might just walk past them, but

20:24

it might be someone you bump into in a coffee shop

20:27

or a colleague or someone you're sitting next to

20:29

on the underground or on the bus or on a

20:31

plane or just in your life and you have absolutely

20:34

no idea exactly that they might have, you

20:36

know, 10, 20 years of kind

20:39

of trauma that they don't want to talk about. And I wondered

20:42

when you started opening up and you started writing on

20:44

the boards, did you suddenly feel

20:45

almost this like release, this

20:47

pressure off that you felt other

20:49

people then opening up to you and saying,

20:52

I've been through this, maybe it's something similar

20:54

or something kind of

20:56

very different but equally challenging

20:58

and you realise, wait a second, I'm

21:00

completely normal because it's completely

21:02

normal to have these fluctuations.

21:05

Yeah, you know what, because as I

21:07

say, it was such a long period of my life, it

21:09

became ingrained as a characteristic. So

21:12

when we started doing those boards and as

21:14

you say, people were opening up themselves

21:16

and sharing it and commenting and so on,

21:19

I guess I was gaining strength

21:22

from those as you say, but it was

21:24

a very slow process because we were

21:26

still wearing masks for the first three

21:29

years. We were anonymous for the first three years.

21:31

So it's like you're kind of coming

21:33

out, but not really with all this stuff.

21:35

You're still behind the mask.

21:39

And yeah,

21:41

it was probably like when we took the masks

21:43

off, that was really hard

21:45

because it kind of then goes back. You

21:47

know, you're completely bearing yourself.

21:49

Yeah, it's now. Yeah, actually, I'm

21:51

the one who's been saying some things, you know,

21:53

you're the one who's been saying some things.

21:56

And we end up going through an imposter syndrome

21:59

period as well where we're of

22:00

like, what do people really expect us

22:02

to be? Did they expect us to be who we are?

22:05

And not knowing that fills

22:07

your head with all kinds of silliness. It's like,

22:09

you're never going to know that and everyone's going to think differently about you.

22:11

And it doesn't even matter because as Ian

22:13

said, we've only ever cared about the words we're

22:15

putting out, not about

22:17

who we are in terms

22:19

of that. And even though we're gaining from it, we gain

22:21

strength from it and it does help me

22:23

to speak out. We

22:26

never made it about that.

22:29

And so that was, yeah, it's

22:31

ups and downs, you know, but then life is, right?

22:33

You know, your mental health struggles, don't just

22:36

go because you had a realization. You're

22:38

gonna have things that change

22:40

because it's just the organic nature of the way chemicals

22:43

work in your brain and the way the world is, you know.

22:45

This is a different room, but we're talking about the same stuff.

22:47

And yet I'm realizing certain things

22:49

right now that I didn't realize before. I

22:52

might forget something today that I'll remember tomorrow.

22:55

It's just one of those things, but you have to figure

22:57

out, you have to come up with tools that kind of help you

22:59

to navigate

23:01

those tough parts to

23:03

get to the good parts. Yeah,

23:06

definitely. Do you know, it's

23:08

just getting it out there, the importance

23:11

of talking. I used

23:15

to have problems expressing how

23:17

I felt

23:18

and I'd write it down on a page. That

23:21

was a way of getting my feelings and emotions out

23:23

there. I remember showing someone, they was like, oh,

23:25

this is a bit dark, isn't it? But it was kind

23:27

of like, it was therapy for me. It was just getting

23:30

all my negative thoughts and feelings on a page.

23:33

And like, I've still got them in my wardrobe and it kind

23:35

of like, it's evidence to me that,

23:37

you know, I survived that moment, you know, and that's what

23:39

I was going through in that. And I think as

23:42

time has gone on, you know, I've realized that

23:44

talking about your problems and, you know, again,

23:46

getting it off your chest, you know, don't suffer in silence.

23:49

It does make you feel better, you know what I mean? It's just,

23:52

you know, the more we talk, you know, the better we

23:54

feel, you know, just to lighten the load,

23:56

you know, you haven't got to carry the weight of the world on your

23:58

back. now you can share it

24:00

with others, you know?

24:01

And did you have a moment with each other?

24:03

I don't know, I don't

24:04

think I've read about this, like when you

24:07

first met each other, were you kind

24:09

of honest about everything you're going

24:11

through or did that build up and then

24:12

you suddenly had this... You know what, I think it built up. It

24:15

built up but the funniest thing is the very first time,

24:17

he doesn't remember

24:19

the very first time we met, it was actually we were on a duty

24:21

and I remember it being a really hard shift

24:24

and I was just some of our colleagues from our team and

24:26

then he came walking past

24:28

and I was like, who's that? And he said, that person here

24:30

will shift. And they're like, oh, that's Ian. He

24:32

works in the SRT as well. And I was like, where's

24:35

he been all this time? I thought he was a skiver. I thought

24:37

like he's taking the mic. Trying to check, you know?

24:39

I was like, what's that about? Where's

24:41

he been? We've been slugging it off here all

24:44

this time. So I was doing my makeup. No, he

24:46

was actually helping out. He was actually doing the job in another

24:49

part of the station. And then

24:51

our manager put us together because

24:53

she said that we're both, everyone

24:55

keeps talking about how we're both creative and coming

24:57

up with bonkers things and all that on the gate lines. we should

24:59

do something together. And we,

25:01

she started putting us in shifts together and we were just standing around

25:04

talking like this and coming up with ideas.

25:07

We came up with all kinds of ideas, some crazy

25:09

stuff. And then,

25:12

yeah, I think we were just thinking

25:14

in the middle of conversations. And it bad, Ellie, yeah. He remembers

25:16

the first time that he met me, but I don't remember the first

25:19

time. You wouldn't remember that. That's very

25:21

normal. You wouldn't remember that because like you literally

25:23

just, he was doing the job, but- I think

25:25

I was on my way to the tour that you were telling me. You were, yeah,

25:27

yeah. and I was like quickly high and by, weren't it? Cause

25:30

yeah, I had a bit of a... But yeah, I mean, I can't remember

25:32

when I finally found out about

25:34

your condition or... I think we just literally just

25:36

told each other. Yeah, we just like opened it up about it. I think

25:38

we just realized that we're both very similar

25:41

in how we see the world, like

25:43

in terms of

25:44

that kind of caring for people and

25:46

caring about others around us. And

25:49

it just became really easy to kind of say,

25:51

oh, that person's a caring, you know, you just get that aura

25:54

around people. And you felt comfortable to share

25:56

your stories. And this is what gets me. It's

26:00

like, you know, why should it

26:01

take bravery to ask for help? Why

26:04

should you be brave in coming out about who

26:06

you are? You know, I mean, we should we should talk about

26:08

it like we chat about the weather. You know, how

26:10

does it affect anyone else? You know, it's kind

26:13

of we want to smash stigmas and break

26:15

taboos and stuff and just, you know, generally,

26:18

we do now we get

26:20

customers who come up to us on the underground all the time,

26:22

asking us questions, obviously, like the directions who

26:24

hear directions for there. But sometimes

26:27

they come over to you and you think that's what they're going to

26:29

ask. and it's like, oh, you do the boards, don't you? And it was like, oh yeah,

26:32

we do. And then you can see the

26:34

nervousness and it's like, just pretend

26:37

you're asking us for directions. It'll work out.

26:39

You'll be able to say what you want to say because

26:42

that's who we are now. We just want

26:45

people to be able to come up to us and say whatever, give

26:47

us a hug. If you want to give us a hug, give

26:49

us a high five

26:50

or just, you know, away from a distance

26:52

if that's easier for you or whatever, but don't feel

26:54

like you can't, you know, come talk to us. Do you know

26:56

what? It's brilliant. When people, like we may get recognized once,

26:59

shift maybe twice or three times, yeah, but

27:01

when they come over to you and say, oh, could I get

27:03

a selfie with you? We're always up for selfies and

27:05

hugs, you know what I mean? It's a good feeling, isn't it? Yeah, it's

27:07

good. It'd be nice if that became like

27:09

a community thing, like if people were able to just do

27:12

that, but it is difficult. You can understand

27:14

why it is. It's very different scenarios, right? You

27:16

can't just go and hug up anyone. You can't

27:18

just go and do that with anyone. You can't open up to absolutely

27:20

everyone. But

27:22

there are, but unfortunately that translates

27:25

a lot to people in in their own groups

27:27

where they're not doing that with the people they

27:29

know that they can, they

27:31

just don't feel that they can.

27:34

Yeah, it is important because I think in

27:36

my case with my eating disorder, the thing

27:38

with eating disorders is you become really good at

27:41

hiding the fact that you have an eating disorder, even

27:43

though you don't know you have an eating disorder. Because

27:46

I was still a child and a teenager,

27:48

but you don't know that you've got a disorder,

27:50

you just think this is

27:53

what you are. And I was wearing

27:55

clothes that would just be baggy and

27:58

no one could see how I... was and so

28:00

on. It was destroying

28:03

communication. It was like blocking

28:05

communication. I'm

28:06

incredibly

28:09

good at that.

28:10

I'm constantly fighting that

28:12

part of me saying, that's not helping you.

28:15

That's not helping you at all. Start talking

28:17

more. I don't think I've ever actually talked

28:19

this much about that period

28:21

actually until just now thinking

28:23

about it. We've written

28:25

about eating disorders and I have mentioned

28:28

it in the books, but

28:30

not to this depth, you know, and it's

28:32

so much, it's a ridiculous, a long period

28:34

of life, you know, and it affects so many things.

28:38

Those were informative years, you

28:40

know, going through all of that. I mean,

28:43

when I went to university, actually, I wasn't someone

28:45

who lived in halls, so I didn't

28:48

have a community, I would actually just drive from home

28:50

to university and home like that. So

28:53

it again, gave me the opportunity just not to

28:55

talk to anyone. You

28:56

go to lectures, you sit there, don't say

28:58

a word in the seminars, the teacher

29:00

points at you and you say the most simple

29:02

answer so you don't have to say anything more. And

29:05

then

29:05

the attention goes to someone else. You just find

29:07

these ways of not talking. And

29:09

I think there's a lot of people out there now more than

29:12

ever because of social media. They can say things on

29:14

social media, but not in

29:16

real life. And they feel

29:18

like that's them talking, but it's not really,

29:21

you know, because

29:22

it's too controlled. You You've

29:23

got to be willing to just open up and let things

29:26

flow.

29:26

Do you feel a sense of freedom in a way

29:28

now that you can speak so openly faster? Yeah,

29:30

this is a really weird sensation right

29:32

now, talking like this.

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30:26

Yeah, this is a really weird sensation

30:29

right now talking like this because it's

30:32

just, as I say, it's a ridiculous amount of stuff

30:34

and you can't write that on a board.

30:37

You can't write that even, I mean, you could write

30:39

it in a book, but it would have to be

30:41

a really big book.

30:44

And talking is

30:46

so much more because all

30:49

those little pauses in what I'm saying,

30:52

all those little intricacies in the things

30:54

I'm saying, you can't translate that any other way

30:57

than just talking. I mean,

30:58

that's why we can talk. That's why we've got voices.

31:00

I know. I always think it'd be a really interesting experience

31:03

if anyone says things, say they're on the tube or the bus

31:06

or maybe they're in the office surrounded by a group

31:08

of people, if everyone just sort of stopped

31:10

and then like actually offloaded, you

31:13

know, what was going on, you know, when people are like, how are

31:15

you? And sometimes you're like, I'm great and you really

31:17

are great. And sometimes you're like, I'm actually

31:20

really having a bad day. You know, this

31:22

happened, that's happened. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about that.

31:25

You know, big stuff, small stuff. But we're

31:27

all like, yeah, good, good, good. Fine, fine,

31:29

fine. And

31:30

I would love this moment if like the whole

31:32

world stopped and everyone just was

31:35

completely honest about

31:37

what was in their brain, what they were thinking, what they

31:39

were feeling. And obviously, as I said,

31:41

you'd have an absolute split with some people genuinely

31:43

are feeling really, really great. But

31:45

probably a lot of people are worrying about a lot of things.

31:47

And I wondered if everyone said it out loud at the

31:49

same time, how many people would say the exact

31:52

same

31:52

thing as each other. That would be fantastic.

31:54

You know what I mean? Because like, you know, we all kind of asked

31:57

each other out of politeness, I guess. How are

31:59

you doing?

32:00

And then not to be a burden or waste

32:02

the other person's time. Oh yeah, I'm okay. Yeah.

32:05

It's like, if you ask, are you really okay? Like a second

32:07

time, you know, they might genuinely say, yeah, no, I'm fine.

32:09

But it's just, yeah, to be open and

32:11

honest. And yeah, that'd be brilliant. I

32:13

think it would be like, there'd be poetry in the echo. As

32:16

you say, everyone would be saying a lot, not

32:18

everyone, but there would be a lot of people saying the same thing and there would

32:20

be a, there would be a sense of harmony

32:22

in that moment.

32:23

And it's almost, you know, as you were just saying,

32:25

Jeremy, it's like what you were going through the

32:27

eating sort of created this extreme sense of loneliness,

32:30

but it's a loneliness that can be fostered by

32:32

lots of other challenges,

32:35

you know, be it physical illness,

32:37

mental illness, grief, but probably

32:39

feeling very similar feelings of trying

32:42

to make yourself invisible and not a burden or feeling

32:44

like you don't fit in. And again,

32:47

it's just those sensations being so universal.

32:50

And, you know, I was wondering what your experiences

32:53

were like kind of getting this

32:55

point and this point of saying I want to break down the barriers,

32:58

I want to

32:58

shout. Yeah, do you know what? It's

33:00

just over time, it's

33:02

like I used to be a train

33:05

driver, I had a young girl

33:07

jump in front of my train, it completely

33:09

messed me up. And I was scared

33:11

of the dark for about a year,

33:13

I couldn't have the lights off. Every

33:16

time I shut my eyes, I'd say, because

33:18

what happened, it's like our eyes met

33:20

just as a train hitter and she smiled.

33:23

So I was kind of left with that image. Yeah.

33:25

And it's, and it just

33:27

messed me up big time. Subsequently,

33:30

like recently, like last year, the

33:33

girl got in touch with us. I mean,

33:35

this is like over 10 years later, I was

33:37

under the impression that the girl had died. So

33:39

I was carrying that kind of, you know, it was like, you

33:41

go through all the emotions, you're like, you're

33:43

glad that you survived that situation. You feel

33:46

guilt. You think of a family, you think

33:48

of what she could have been. Could I I've done anything

33:50

more and then to have the girl like

33:52

send us an email 10 years later. And Jeremy said

33:54

to me, do not read the email, you know, it's just

33:57

gonna, you know, but I've kind of

33:59

like, you know.

34:00

I've forgiven her and I'm glad that she's

34:02

alive and I'm

34:04

glad for her family, but it's something that I can

34:07

never forget. I remember having

34:09

counselling at the time just after it happened

34:11

and the counsellor said, if

34:15

she was here and she was in the room with

34:17

you, what would you do? And I said, I

34:19

honestly couldn't tell you whether I'd hug

34:21

her or what I want to hit her. My

34:24

head was in that place. It was

34:26

just so messed up. But over time with

34:28

counseling, you realize the importance of talking.

34:31

I was kind of trying to protect my

34:33

own family by saying, yeah, I'm OK,

34:35

I'm OK. But just by bottling it up inside

34:38

and just, yeah, I was really beating myself up.

34:41

It's like, you know, why am I protecting my family?

34:43

There are people that I love that would do

34:45

anything for me. And I can

34:48

talk to them and they're there to help me. And

34:50

unfortunately, some people haven't

34:52

got those people in their lives. But, you know, there are

34:55

people out there that will listen. there are organisations,

34:57

you know, that's kind of what

34:59

me and Jeremy want to do, use social media for

35:01

good. You know, we share, sorry,

35:04

we see people sharing sort of comments and sort

35:06

of making friends with one another, you know, over

35:08

certain like boards that we put on about mental health.

35:11

And it's like just to see that connection. It's

35:13

like, oh, wow, you know, I thought I was the only person

35:15

going through this, you know. So I think it

35:17

like, you know, since my late

35:19

teenage years, you know, having anxiety attacks

35:22

and I've just realised the importance

35:24

of talking and to getting it out there. And

35:27

Ella Rifasa said to you, I

35:29

go through this and you might say, well, I go through

35:31

that too. And then we can know that we're

35:33

not alone. And you could share your

35:36

techniques on how you deal with yours. And I could

35:38

share mine. It's just

35:41

important. Sorry, talking is so

35:43

important. It really is. However

35:46

you do it by putting how

35:48

you feel on social media. Yeah, or you know, I

35:50

remember like, I

35:52

think it was last year, it was,

35:55

you know, Jeremy's talking about eating disorder.

35:58

I've had this sort of problem for for

36:00

seven years, it's like a

36:02

fear of choking. And it

36:05

affects me, sort of like, you know, if

36:07

I go out to restaurants, you know, I'm

36:09

kind of like hiding the food and just

36:11

constantly worried about choking on food

36:13

and it's affected my diet so much. And

36:16

I was sitting at the kitchen table, my wife was

36:18

on the sofa, and I just

36:21

had food dribbling out the side of my

36:23

mouth like a baby and like I was making all

36:25

these gargling noises and I'm like, I'm

36:27

so fed up with this. So I just wrote down

36:29

on a piece of paper, I'm going

36:31

through this, is anyone else going through a similar

36:34

thing? And it kind of went viral.

36:36

We put it up on social media. It wasn't a board or anything.

36:39

It was just me asking for, not asking

36:41

for help, but just saying, if anyone

36:44

else has something similar going on. And

36:48

subsequently I ended up on this morning

36:52

with the speakmans and they were talking

36:54

me for it. It was it it

36:56

was something that they could never cure overnight But

36:59

it was just nice to know that I wasn't alone and it

37:01

has improved and I can now go out to restaurants

37:04

Like you know social occasions, you know, and I've

37:06

just realized it's like because I was like literally

37:09

if we was all eating food I'd be the last to finish

37:11

but I wouldn't finish it and my food would go cold

37:13

and just you can eat at all And

37:16

I was always like hiding food under napkins, but

37:18

now I just order smaller portions

37:20

and just realize, you know When I've had enough I've had enough.

37:22

I haven't got beat myself up about it It's

37:25

just nice being with other people, you know, it's

37:28

a talk, talk, talk.

37:30

Did you feel you were living in a kind of

37:32

cloud of fear in some ways?

37:35

Yeah, yeah, big time. Yeah, big time.

37:37

Yeah. And it's just, you know, it's

37:39

kind of like I was always trying to protect

37:42

other people, but just like by saying,

37:44

I'm okay. You know, it's like, you know, you

37:47

know, putting a brave face on things. But why

37:49

put a brave face on things? You know, it's just.

37:52

Did you think

37:54

this is something just I found that in my own life

37:56

because that's what I did for a really long time.

37:58

Yeah. come draw

38:00

away from people and just give them like a very surface

38:03

level like, yeah, fine. Yeah. You

38:05

know, even with people who are very, very close with, that

38:08

actually it's like really counterproductive

38:10

and I didn't,

38:10

it took me a long time to understand that and

38:13

change because it's incredibly difficult. But actually

38:15

you're trying to protect people, but in a way

38:18

you're

38:18

not because you're sort of

38:20

pushing them away and you're not therefore

38:23

really helping them or yourself to a degree.

38:25

Absolutely. And they can, they can

38:27

kind of see it. They can see what you're going

38:29

through, but they can't

38:31

really, you know, they want to do everything they can

38:33

to help. And,

38:35

yeah.

38:36

And did you both, or did

38:38

you have a moment where you kind of had

38:40

that internal dialogue of thinking,

38:42

okay, I've been living like this

38:45

for however long, and to

38:47

your point there, I've almost like writing it down and putting it out

38:49

there, but saying, I don't want to live

38:52

like this anymore. I need

38:54

to ask for help. that kind of being stage

38:56

one and almost like privately asking for help and then

38:58

stage two being like, and now actually I want

39:00

to break down the barriers so that anyone else,

39:03

it doesn't

39:03

have to go the same way. Yeah, I think it's, well for me it's

39:05

like a process over time. It's like sort of

39:08

receiving counselling and just, you

39:10

know, and I realised, you know, I

39:13

was obsessively, like I started obsessively

39:16

talking to people how I was feeling and

39:18

the incidents that had happened to the point

39:20

where I got to the point where, you know

39:23

what, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I'm boring

39:25

myself. And then I kind of realized

39:27

it was kind of like, you know, I think I'm getting

39:29

there, you know? Yeah, for me,

39:31

it was like, um, going, going

39:33

back through that period of the, with

39:35

my eating disorder, it was, uh, I had

39:38

that moment of clarity, but I don't think that came

39:40

just out of,

39:41

out of the blue. I think it was

39:43

building up to that in a similar way to you.

39:47

I talked to myself a lot, almost like a third

39:49

person interview in my head. Sometimes you're You're walking along

39:51

like you're talking, you're like, I sound like I'm talking like in an interview

39:53

in my head. And I was

39:55

already going through all that stuff and seeing, talking

39:58

about how inadequate I am and how

40:00

how much of a failure I

40:02

am and all these really negative things all

40:04

the time. That's so many of us say to ourselves.

40:07

And it was constant and it

40:09

was during that period and because I

40:11

was, as I say, I was at university, I was going back

40:13

to not really talking to anyone. I

40:16

only had myself to talk to. But

40:18

then I kind of started

40:20

to get bored, like you say, you

40:22

start to get bored of the negative stuff and

40:24

I don't know what it is. I must have had some kind of strength

40:26

in me and I think that was when I realised there

40:28

There is some strength in me somewhere because

40:31

I'm still here. Despite all that negative

40:33

stuff, I'm still here. So what is that?

40:36

And then I started thinking

40:38

about the things that I do enjoy and

40:40

I enjoy watching movies and writing

40:44

stories and all these kinds of things. And

40:46

at that time I was actually watching the TV show Buffy the Vampire

40:48

Slayer and I became obsessed with it. It was like

40:50

the greatest thing ever. And the character

40:53

of Buffy was just like this

40:55

amazing hero who despite

40:57

all of this stuff and obviously doing it all in

41:00

secret, she's still there

41:02

and she's still fighting for the whole world kind of

41:04

thing. I'm like, oh, you know, there's a bit of that going on in

41:06

me as well. So, you know,

41:09

I connected with that. And I think it was just

41:11

after, it was during that period as I was watching, it was just after

41:14

that kind of thought process, I woke up that day and had

41:16

this kind of like, I guess epiphany that

41:19

I'm going to die and I need to stop

41:21

this. And I did go to the doctor

41:23

and of course the first thing the doctor did was

41:25

diagnose me with depression and an eating

41:28

disorder and said, right, here's tablets, take these tablets.

41:30

And I was like, so medication, right?

41:32

So you start taking a medication and after about a week

41:34

or so, it started making me nauseous. And that's the one

41:37

thing that I hate the most out

41:39

of everything is feeling nauseous. It's

41:41

just like, I can deal with most other kinds

41:43

of things, but nausea, no, thank you. And

41:46

I just literally bin them.

41:47

And I said, right, I don't like that, but

41:49

that I obviously

41:50

need something because the doctor said I need something

41:52

and I need something. So what else can can I do?

41:54

So I just found my own

41:57

solution which was to start

41:59

bin- Binge eating, weird

42:02

thing to say, that's the solution. But when you were that like

42:04

on the verge of,

42:06

I was completely undernourished. I

42:09

had to, I started to binge eat in secret

42:11

to try and help myself in that way. And

42:13

it was literally one bite a day. And that became

42:15

my thing, one bite more a day

42:19

of a really bad pizza in a local place.

42:21

And it was always open. So I'd go there

42:23

after work, binge on this pizza

42:25

by just having one extra bite a day. And I started

42:27

gaining weight basically. And then I started

42:30

doing other things like exercise. I was

42:32

like, okay, let me try some exercise. And I think that was

42:34

when I realized I'm actually stronger than physically

42:36

as well than I realized I was. Cause I'm able

42:38

to do some of these exercises I thought would just kill

42:40

me. So I started doing that as well.

42:43

And I went through this period where actually my health

42:45

got really, really good. I was like, wow. And people

42:47

started noticing it and their demeanor

42:49

towards me was completely different. Like

42:52

they weren't so abusive to me, like

42:54

random comments and things like that didn't happen anymore.

42:58

And yeah, that starts to have effects

43:00

as well, but yeah.

43:01

And what do you, are there tools that you do now

43:04

or kind of things that like maybe just reminders

43:07

for yourself or

43:08

practical things that you come back to? It is mostly

43:10

reminders, I think, in the head. And obviously what we

43:13

do with all on the board, because when we feeling

43:15

that

43:16

inadequacy or whatever, we just write about it now.

43:18

And we're lucky that we've got that output, you know, we've

43:20

got that space to do that. And other people don't

43:22

have that, but then people do have that. Because

43:25

social media, you can do it anyway. or people around

43:27

you can talk to. I've got two kids, you

43:29

know,

43:30

everything I do is for my family

43:32

now, you know. So I'm

43:35

always visualizing them in my head, you

43:37

know, what can I pass on to them

43:39

for my lessons? Cause they might go through similar

43:41

things, you know,

43:43

my parents didn't know what I was going through. So

43:45

how can I know what they're

43:48

going to go through or how can I give them the tools

43:50

to tell me what they're going through? And

43:52

you know, these kinds of things, it's, yeah.

43:54

Yeah, you know, it's nice just dropping

43:57

little reminders out there to people. It's like,

43:59

you know, it's like.

44:00

You're not weak, you're tired from being

44:02

strong. You know what I mean? It's just like intrusive

44:05

thoughts. You know, it's like, oh, the voice in

44:07

my head. Well, no, actually you've got control

44:09

over that voice in the head. You know, you can tell it to

44:11

shut up whenever you want. You know, it's it, you know, it takes

44:13

time. But, you know, you you

44:15

can learn to find space, can't you, between yourself

44:18

and that voice? Yeah, yeah. I mean,

44:20

for a while, you know, it's just like, again,

44:22

we work on the underground and like sometimes

44:25

and it did scare me quite a bit. It's like I'd

44:27

be walking along the platform

44:29

And because of what had happened to me, it's like, you know,

44:32

I'd get this voice going, oh,

44:34

you know, you had someone jump in front of your

44:36

train. Why don't you do it? And I'm like, well, like,

44:38

hold on. Where did that come from? You know what I mean? And

44:41

it's just and then, you know, over time you realize,

44:43

no, hold on. It's like it's I

44:45

can control this. You know, I can tell it to shut up.

44:47

You know, if you're not going to get on with me

44:50

or entertain me or like help me out, then,

44:52

you know, just it just you go away.

44:54

Yeah. Go away. Yeah. Basically. just realizing

44:57

that perfection doesn't

44:59

exist,

44:59

you're not alone. And

45:03

we all have, you know, how

45:05

imperfections are just differences that should

45:08

be celebrated. And

45:10

in my writing, saying the grassroots is one of the

45:12

things that you come back to a lot as well. Yeah,

45:15

yeah, basically just

45:17

grateful to celebrate

45:21

every little achievement like

45:23

a glorious win. You know what I mean? It really

45:26

is, you know, just getting out of bed on some days. It's

45:28

like, you know, yeah, I got out of bed, you know, it's like,

45:30

you know, I won't give myself a medal for it

45:32

or, you know, but it's just like, yeah, you've done all right, you

45:35

know, life's the medal, isn't it? You're

45:37

still here enjoying it. Yeah. I'm

45:39

genuinely like that. That period of my

45:41

life, I shouldn't be here considering

45:44

how

45:44

things were going. But the fact

45:46

I am here is just like, oh, I'm still here. This

45:49

is amazing. As long as I've got with we've all

45:51

we've all got a limited amount of time. And

45:54

unfortunately these kind of things end up wasting

45:56

so much of it.

45:57

And then you're kind of like trying to catch up. But

46:01

that becomes itself a negative thing because you're

46:03

not trying to grab everything you can, it exhausts you again.

46:05

So you've got to just like accept. Sometimes

46:07

you have amazing things happening. Some days you're just too

46:09

tired, but you're still here. And

46:12

as long as you're here, keep going and

46:14

enjoy as much as you can. You know, everything from a cup

46:16

of tea to

46:19

just being out in what's not

46:21

raining or when it is raining, just enjoy

46:23

the rain, whatever it is, you know, just try and find

46:25

some enjoyment in it. And when you

46:27

can't enjoy it, except tomorrow is going to be better.

46:30

You've got through really bad days before. There's

46:32

going to be bad days in the future. It's going to be good days in the future.

46:36

And yeah, the gratitude is like

46:38

actually with what we're doing now, I mean, here we are, you

46:40

know, it wasn't until we're almost 40

46:43

that all in the board happened. So

46:45

every little thing like meeting you, like doing this

46:47

kind of thing, all these kind of things that we're doing is

46:50

just like amazing to us. It's like blowing

46:52

our minds every single time we do this kind of stuff. It's

46:54

like, how can we beat? How comes we're doing this? Well, we're

46:56

here because we got through that stuff and we

46:58

never gave up. So if we can

47:01

be here at this age

47:03

having any kind of success, if you

47:05

want to look at this as success,

47:06

then everybody should just

47:08

be willing to keep going and you

47:11

never know what might happen. You might come up with something amazing

47:13

and do something amazing. And just what

47:16

we do come across a lot of people that have like

47:18

anxiety attacks on the tubes, because

47:20

they're crowded, they're hot. And

47:22

it's just to like, if you

47:25

could, if you have an anxiety attack, write down

47:27

how you're feeling. And next time you have

47:29

one, you know, it's evidence to you that you got

47:31

through it. You know what I mean? It's just, yeah.

47:33

It must be really humbling

47:35

and kind of fascinating at the same time

47:38

watching everyone on their journeys every day.

47:40

It's just like,

47:42

I always think it's interesting on the tube or

47:44

any kind of crowded space like that to watch

47:46

people go about their days. And I guess

47:48

I've become so interested

47:50

and attuned to how people

47:52

seem to be feeling and how they're interacting with one

47:54

another that I've just become fascinated

47:58

by watching it but you can really see people.

48:00

who are

48:01

struggling or feeling down, but

48:03

the way that it is quite invisible.

48:06

I'll never forget I had this tube journey. I

48:08

was

48:10

at work by

48:12

Liverpool Street, which is in East London,

48:15

and my mother-in-law had been very,

48:17

very ill for a year, and when we knew we

48:20

were reaching kind of towards the end. But

48:23

obviously

48:24

things turned really, really quickly, and I was literally you're about

48:26

to walk on stage to do a talk. I had

48:28

the microphone on. I just had

48:31

one of those weird feelings to check my phone

48:33

and so I did and I had three

48:35

missed calls from my husband.

48:37

So I obviously called him back and his mum

48:40

had had, she just,

48:42

something had turned and it was really clear that actually

48:45

we'd gone from thinking we had months to thinking we might

48:47

have hours or, you know, max,

48:49

a couple of days. So I literally just walked

48:52

out. I didn't even tell anyone I was leaving

48:54

and there was this whole crowd of people and I she just walked

48:56

out. And it's that strange thing exactly

48:59

as we were talking about earlier where you're completely numb, you're

49:01

completely, you're like in this busy crowded,

49:03

like events, you know, 10,000 people

49:05

in the space, but you're completely alone in

49:07

it. And I walked to the tube

49:10

and I got on the tube and when I sat down on the tube,

49:12

and it was the middle of the day, so it was relatively quiet and I just had

49:14

this complete breakdown. And it was absolutely

49:17

hysterical. And I was going all the way across

49:19

London to West London where my mum

49:22

was gonna pick me up and drive me down because my husband was already

49:24

with his family and they didn't live in London.

49:26

I cried the whole way and no one spoke to me.

49:29

And it's one of those, you know, you have those experiences. I don't

49:31

say this as like, sure everyone on the truth that day is so

49:34

nice. I didn't say it as a criticism, but it was one of those

49:36

just, those moments that stick with you where

49:37

you think, this is so weird. The

49:40

world's got to change. Like there's something

49:42

wrong with this. Like as in

49:45

I was, you know, young in my

49:47

twenties and I was there and you know, I was like

49:49

dressed for work. So, you know,

49:51

I clearly needed help And

49:54

no one even looked at me. It was anyway,

49:56

and it always struck me is this fascinating thing

49:58

of everyone going through.

50:00

things, but we're so scared to say

50:02

the wrong thing that we don't say anything. And I think

50:04

what you guys are doing of putting yourselves out there

50:06

and always saying something and

50:09

letting people see that every day when they're

50:11

in, on their way to work, having those moments.

50:13

It's, it's just amazing.

50:14

Do you know what? I just want to say, if these microphones

50:16

weren't in the way, I'd have come over and give you a hug.

50:19

Yeah. Cause yeah, yeah. Just, um,

50:21

but, but yeah, you're right. It's like, it

50:23

is weird. It's that we've got all these tools

50:26

now to communicate with, you know, social media and

50:28

that. And yet we are kind of like in our

50:30

own little cocoons. And it just seems the art of conversation

50:33

is kind of like disappeared. And I

50:35

think we should have, why one

50:37

day a year? But it should be, they

50:41

should put up posters where on your tube journey, you've

50:44

got to say hello to at least 10 people

50:46

before you get to your destination. I mean,

50:49

how crazy would that be? But it would be nice. Or

50:52

you've got to hug three people if you want to

50:54

before you get to your destination. It's

50:56

just, yeah, it's

50:59

mad. Just everyone on their own little journeys

51:01

and just, you know, it's just like, I was

51:04

on the Tube the other day and it's just like,

51:07

I think there's about 20 people on the carriage. It

51:09

wasn't during the peak and I counted how

51:11

many people on their phones and out of the 20 people,

51:14

there was like 17 people on their phones and it was

51:16

like...

51:17

Yeah, you're kind of missing everything around.

51:18

Yeah, yeah. I kind of miss

51:21

the days of newspapers and like elbows, I

51:23

kind of imagine you're in stuff. You can't do that

51:25

anymore. There's too many people packed in now to even

51:27

get a newspaper out. But no, it's interesting

51:29

you're saying that about your

51:32

journey that time because I'm currently off

51:34

work because

51:36

I'm grieving because my mum passed away at the

51:38

end of January and it's

51:41

been really tough because it was really sudden and

51:43

I'm going to be going back to work in a couple of weeks' time

51:46

and it's been playing in my mind a little bit like because

51:49

all our followers kind of know know

51:51

and they're probably thinking

51:53

when they see me they're going to give me a hug or they're not sure

51:55

if they can or whether they can say hello

51:57

or what to say. I'm thinking...

52:00

in my head, well, um, I don't

52:02

even know how I'm going to react. So

52:05

we're all thinking like, we don't know, we don't know.

52:07

So why not just do what, what is natural

52:09

to you? You know, like

52:11

people want to come over and give me a hug. People want to come and say hi

52:13

or wave in a distance or whatever, thumbs up, whatever,

52:15

that's fine. You know, um, cause I

52:18

might well tear up or might cry cause

52:20

that's how I do things. That's me in general.

52:23

Um, and I don't want people to feel like,

52:25

Oh, that's really awkward or bad. Cause you know, he's

52:27

crying. Crying, tears are just

52:29

messages from the heart, right? That have

52:32

to come out and they come out in the

52:34

way that they come out. So it's

52:36

a weird thing that's been playing in my mind. Like

52:39

I'm going to cry. I definitely am going to cry

52:41

at some point. And I don't want to weird anyone

52:43

out and make them feel like, oh, they're the reason why I'm crying

52:46

or, you know, anything like that. And then you

52:48

go through that whole, oh, I'm trying to defend,

52:50

protect people from feeling bad about things

52:52

or whatever like that again. It's like, well, no, not really. It's just

52:54

the way it is. It's just a part of life, isn't

52:57

it? And it's so interesting how scared

52:59

we are of saying something because we're scared of saying the wrong

53:01

thing. And I remember talking to

53:03

my husband about it afterwards and he felt,

53:06

you know, I'm not sure if this had your experience

53:08

at all, but like so Loniks people often don't say anything because

53:10

they're scared that if they say something, they'll upset

53:12

you or they'll say the wrong thing. But as a result,

53:15

you end up feeling really cut off because

53:17

no one wants, not that they don't want to talk

53:19

about it, but as I said, it's the fear of saying the wrong thing. That

53:21

means people often say nothing. And

53:23

it's really interesting one again, just about

53:25

breaking down the barriers. and I think the more we talk about

53:28

all of our experiences in our life, the

53:30

more comfortable everyone is to say, okay, you

53:33

know what, it's okay, it's okay to talk about it, it's okay

53:35

to have whatever emotional response to it. And

53:37

as a result, we all feel infinitely more connected

53:39

and compassionate to each other.

53:41

You know, but I think because of that period of me being

53:44

completely isolating myself to

53:46

so many people and everything around me in society

53:48

in general, it has given me this

53:50

kind of particular

53:52

ability to spot that in people

53:55

who I have no idea who they are.

53:57

I think that's probably what happened when I was working

53:59

on the tube that day.

54:00

and the lady, it was incredibly

54:02

busy. It was King's Cross station, so you can imagine really busy.

54:05

And it was literally just me and one other member of staff

54:07

there. And finally enough talking about rule breaking

54:09

and stuff like that, earlier on we were saying,

54:12

I was breaking a rule on that

54:14

duty that time, because I was told to go

54:17

to another part of the station, which would have left my colleague

54:19

on their own. And it got incredibly busy,

54:21

but I decided to stay with my colleague.

54:23

I disobeyed orders, basically, stayed

54:26

with them. And then this lady came through the crowd

54:28

and was just like this crazy thing where there's almost like

54:30

a like a light spotlight

54:33

on that one person in this crowd

54:35

that I saw like, oh,

54:38

she doesn't seem

54:39

right. Someone doesn't seem right. And I just asked

54:41

her, are you okay? And she kind of stopped, I think just shocked

54:44

by the fact that I spoke to her and

54:46

stared at me what seemed like forever, but it was

54:48

literally just seconds and just stared at me

54:50

and said, no, actually, no, I'm not. And then,

54:52

you know,

54:54

long story short, she eventually

54:56

admitted that she was going to do something. And

54:59

I had effectively, you

55:01

know, broke that thought process

55:04

and stopped that happening by just saying, are

55:06

you okay? And obviously,

55:08

you know, there's all the science that you don't say,

55:10

are you okay? Because it's a really easy

55:13

one to just say yes to. But

55:15

if you see, you can, there are other

55:17

ways you can say things and keep talking to

55:19

people and find out you can ask them a second time or a third

55:22

time, we'll find find another way to ask them an open question.

55:26

But

55:26

if you don't even say anything,

55:28

that moment is gone and then

55:30

that, you know, you know, know what's going to happen then.

55:33

So like you say, you know, we're scared to say the

55:35

wrong thing, but saying something

55:37

is so important,

55:39

even for moments like that, so important, just to say

55:41

something, whatever it might be.

55:43

Did you ever stay in touch with her? No,

55:45

it's kind of like what happened with you, wasn't

55:47

it? Like you don't, you don't get the

55:49

information, you know, Once it's

55:52

out of your hands and it's now in the police hands

55:55

or whoever, you never hear anything again.

55:57

So you don't know, did you have a real impact over any... if

55:59

you've given

56:00

that person one more day, any,

56:02

the other people can come involved

56:04

and fix things or help things or whatever. Um,

56:07

but yeah, it was like 45 minutes. She wouldn't let

56:09

go of my arm. Like the

56:11

police came and there was a psychologist

56:13

and all this and that, and she wouldn't

56:16

like, let me go. She'd become like attached to what I

56:18

was saying is like, you know, the person that

56:20

she trusted in that moment. And, um,

56:23

and I think I'd probably be the same as well. I think anyone

56:25

would would be. You realize that

56:27

this person has kind of done something for you

56:29

and you don't know the other people around

56:31

you and you're in that space that's

56:33

such a bad place that some people end

56:35

up in.

56:36

It was what it was,

56:39

but

56:40

I hold onto the hope that things

56:42

worked out for it. That was

56:44

the first time I had another lady, I think about

56:47

four or five months later at the same station

56:50

as well, but this time on an actual platform

56:52

where I intervened as well. And

56:54

we've both done that. We've both, you know, we've both

56:57

intervened with people in all kinds of situations,

56:59

panic attacks, how many times we've done events where someone's

57:01

having a panic attack and they don't know what

57:03

to do and they've never had one before. They think they're having

57:05

a heart attack and you just kind of like get them through it, you

57:08

know, it's part of the part of the job. Um,

57:10

and it feels incredibly

57:14

good when you help

57:16

someone like that, you know, that's one of the best

57:18

parts of our job, I think on, the underground,

57:21

separate of all on the board. It's

57:23

one of the best parts of our job is those moments

57:27

because you actually feel like you're making a difference. And I think we've

57:29

gone through, we've always wanted to make a difference. I

57:31

mean, I certainly I have, you

57:34

know, in this life. Yeah, now we're in

57:36

a position where we are making a difference in an extended

57:39

manner. And just,

57:41

you know, what we went through with the pandemic, you know,

57:43

just being told that we've got to

57:45

keep apart, you know, it's just surely

57:47

it should make us realise how much we really

57:49

need each other. It's just

57:52

I've never,

57:53

what you talked about about

57:55

gratitude, I'm so grateful to be able to hug

57:57

people again, to be able to...

58:00

to hug my family and my loved ones.

58:02

I remember beating up with

58:04

my mum during the pandemic and

58:09

she looked like a five-foot condom. She had bought this

58:11

Mac where she was able to hug me. Oh

58:13

my God, I saw those on Instagram. I didn't know anyone

58:15

actually had one. Yeah, no, she did. It

58:18

was the strangest thing. We met

58:20

in a car park, kept our distance. We

58:22

run together for about 10 seconds. She told

58:24

me how long I could hug her for with this a five

58:27

foot condom on or whatever it was and yeah

58:29

just being

58:30

able to hug each other and you know and that should have taught

58:32

us how much we need each other you know just

58:34

being like isolated in our own homes it's

58:36

just yeah it's just I do appreciate

58:38

people a lot more since it happened. This

58:40

is probably quite a hard question but if you've

58:42

learnt one thing from starting to share

58:44

your experiences and writing these

58:46

messages of hope and understanding

58:49

and yeah the making people feel seen

58:51

and understood or giving them

58:53

that optimism and

58:56

pause for thought. What do you

58:58

think that one learning might be?

59:01

I don't know about you. It's just

59:04

I realise that it's a

59:06

big world and however lonely I feel,

59:09

I know that I'm not alone and you just

59:11

see other people

59:12

saying the same thing. It's just we're not alone.

59:15

We should be all in it together. No

59:17

matter our circumstances, it's just

59:20

that we go through through similar things, we

59:22

have similar conditions, and just,

59:24

we do need each other, you know? We go

59:26

through good days, bad days, but we

59:28

have days, and we just should

59:30

be there for each other, you know?

59:32

I think also that we're all stronger than we realize,

59:35

because there's some people who

59:37

send us messages and say, oh, you sent out the right time,

59:39

thank you so much. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't

59:41

be here. It's like, well,

59:43

we're your cheerleader, but you're the one who's been

59:45

taking the weight, and you're the one who's got you here

59:48

to read the message in the first place and

59:50

take the message in because it's all perspective.

59:54

Some people do read the message and say, oh, that's a load of

59:56

nonsense. And the

59:58

other person reasons it. that's a perfect

1:00:00

message. It's like, it's the same words. You're

1:00:02

just both reading it a different way and it's

1:00:04

impacting you differently. If you want to

1:00:06

choose that it's the wrong words, then you're going to

1:00:09

see it's the wrong words and then it's not for you, but you're

1:00:11

still here. Something's getting you through here and

1:00:14

the other person finds something in there

1:00:16

and it's getting through, but it's, you're both

1:00:18

getting through because of who you are

1:00:21

and so many things you have no idea

1:00:23

of in your past and happening to you right

1:00:25

now and everyone's got, everyone

1:00:27

has a strength, that's why you're still here. Sometimes

1:00:31

things get too much,

1:00:32

you know, and then unfortunately

1:00:35

it doesn't happen, but sometimes you

1:00:38

get into a ridiculously

1:00:41

stressful dark space and yet

1:00:43

you get through it and you've got through it because of

1:00:46

you, you know. And

1:00:47

just to cut in, just the importance

1:00:50

of kindness, honestly, really,

1:00:52

you know, it is so important to be kind to

1:00:55

one another, You know, I mean, it's just, you know, it's

1:00:57

like being kind to someone. It gives you a good feeling.

1:01:00

They're obviously getting a good feeling because, you know, and

1:01:02

then it's just the whole sort of passing it on effect.

1:01:04

You know, it's just, you know, we don't know what one

1:01:06

another is going through. So just just be kind.

1:01:09

Use social media for good. You know, you know, when

1:01:11

you can add banter and stuff like that, but just use

1:01:13

it for good. You know, we should be building each other

1:01:15

up, not breaking each other down. Exactly.

1:01:17

Be kind to yourself, kind to

1:01:19

others and know that you're not alone. and literally

1:01:22

everything will be wonderful to

1:01:24

live amongst really.

1:01:25

I love that. Thank you both so much

1:01:27

and thank you for sharing so honestly, honestly,

1:01:30

honestly, it

1:01:32

makes, you can underestimate

1:01:34

what a huge difference it makes to

1:01:36

people's lives. Thank you. So I hope everyone

1:01:39

listening has really felt that but I feel so, so

1:01:41

grateful for both of your time today. Thank

1:01:43

you so, so much. Well

1:01:43

thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you

1:01:45

so much. I

1:01:48

have to say meeting and talking to

1:01:50

Ian and Jeremy was a real

1:01:52

highlight of 2023 so far. All

1:01:56

of our guests are spectacular and they all

1:01:58

have these extraordinary stories. that

1:02:00

I know I personally have been deeply inspired

1:02:03

by. But I think what resonated

1:02:05

so much to me was how different both of

1:02:07

their stories were, how much

1:02:10

their vulnerability has inspired truly

1:02:12

tens of millions of people and shown

1:02:14

that whilst it sounds simple, being

1:02:17

just kind and compassionate and thoughtful

1:02:19

to one another is so

1:02:22

incredibly important. You know, we really

1:02:24

don't know what other people are going through. You will

1:02:26

walk past hundreds,

1:02:28

maybe thousands of people depending on what you're

1:02:30

doing at any given day, such

1:02:33

as walking through the tube or the underground or

1:02:35

a bus or however you move around where you live.

1:02:38

And you just don't know what

1:02:39

the person next to you is going through. And I think

1:02:41

both of their stories really illustrate that.

1:02:43

And so I think that lens of

1:02:45

awareness and compassion is just so

1:02:48

important for us to create the world that

1:02:50

we also want to live in. Equally

1:02:53

accepting support and love and

1:02:55

compassion, again, from our friends and family,

1:02:57

even when we feel like we want to isolate. Again,

1:03:00

it sounds simple, but I think it makes the world of

1:03:02

difference to sharing those challenges

1:03:05

and knowing that we're not alone in that.

1:03:08

And then within that, finding moments

1:03:09

of joy, of gratitude, even

1:03:11

in the most boring or difficult days. And I

1:03:13

think that's what their science are all about, is trying

1:03:15

to find a pause in the kind

1:03:18

of minutiae of the world that we live

1:03:20

in and the kind of daily grind

1:03:22

as often we can look at it and

1:03:24

find those moments of hope, of inspiration,

1:03:27

of optimism. So

1:03:29

I hope you found it interesting to hear what

1:03:31

they've been through, the tools that they use. Remember,

1:03:34

we have all of those tools at your disposal

1:03:37

on the Delicious Ciela app for relating

1:03:39

back to this episode, but also every episode

1:03:41

in this season. If you don't have

1:03:43

the app yet, there's a three weeks trial so you can

1:03:46

get started with absolutely no commitment. And

1:03:48

as always, I would love to hear your thoughts

1:03:51

on this whole series, on the episode. I will

1:03:53

miss you while we're on a break. So

1:03:55

we're going on an Easter break now at the end of

1:03:57

this season, but please do

1:03:59

email. email

1:04:00

us podcast at deliciousiella.com.

1:04:02

You can find us on social at deliciousiella.

1:04:06

And while we're on a break, we'll be re-releasing

1:04:08

our best of episodes. So the episodes

1:04:11

that you've loved the most and also

1:04:13

that I feel are the most impactful in

1:04:15

terms of improving our health and our

1:04:18

wellbeing. So they'll span from the last five

1:04:20

or six years covering everything

1:04:22

from period power to the importance

1:04:24

of sleep with Matthew Walker, stress,

1:04:27

your day-to-day environment, how food

1:04:29

affects our mood, so a huge amount

1:04:32

of information, a wealth of

1:04:34

knowledge to inspire your everyday health.

1:04:36

So I hope you enjoy that. I

1:04:38

will see you soon. Thank you for listening.

1:04:40

Thank you for being part of our community and

1:04:43

a huge thank you to Curly Media who are partners

1:04:45

in producing the show.