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[00:00:00] Katie: Welcome to Wellness, Questioned, a podcast looking at how to navigate the wellness industry well, hosted by me, Katie Gordon, and Annabel Lee. Each episode we cover a different aspect of wellness and self improvement, looking at ethics, scandals and red flags. Welcome to an episode on Therapy Speak. It's everywhere! [00:00:25] Annabel: Yeah, no, I don't really feel like I'm in therapy with there's a massive microphone in front of mouth. [00:00:32] Katie: Not normally the setup, is it? [00:00:36] Annabel: I'm excited because I, yeah, I for sure fall into a bit of therapy speak. [00:00:42] Katie: I think we all do it a bit, don't we? Like, I've definitely called people a narcissist before and you know, we all use these terms. They're like, I think that's one of the interesting thing is that a lot of them are so much part of our everyday conversation. We talk about gaslighting and PTSD and oh, I've got OCD or things like that all the time. So I thought it'd be interesting to look at them a bit more and maybe think about why they've started to become part of our vocabulary. [00:01:17] Annabel: Yeah and I guess like, is it okay? Like, is it okay that I'm telling my husband he's gaslighting me when he like has he eaten the last cherry bakewell? [00:01:29] Katie: I don't think that falls into the official definition, so you might just want to tell him. [00:01:35] Annabel: To buy me some more. [00:01:37] Katie: So I thought we'd start off by defining a few terms, starting with trauma, which is everywhere. Which is quite difficult to define because what constitutes trauma is different for different people and some people, you might describe an event and people think, Oh, that's not traumatic at all, but to that person, it's very significant. So the definition, I've picked a definition from Mind, which I thought was fairly reliable. Which says trauma is when we experience very stressful, frightening or distressing events that are difficult to cope with or out of our control. It could be one instant or an ongoing event that happens over a long period of time. Most of us will experience an event in our lives that could be considered traumatic. So I think there's levels of trauma, there are things that can be traumatic, but a big trauma is something that's completely life shattering and then reverberates throughout the rest of your life. But we now see it, all the time, everything is traumatic. Like, you had a bad journey, it was traumatic. Like you, couldn't get the snack you wanted, that's traumatic. Which of course, these things in occasional context could be traumatic, but generally speaking are not trauma. [00:02:55] Annabel: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because you, I hear it, people just say about, you know, oh, I had this meeting with my boss, it was, traumatic. But I guess like, is it just because we know, like, we pick up the word, we think it sounds good and, does it sort of proves a point? [00:03:17] Katie: Personally, I think there's a few things going on. I think this isn't as new as maybe we think it is. I remember at school people saying things like, Oh, she's bipolar, to refer to someone who is maybe like a bit moody. [00:03:32] Annabel: Yeah, [00:03:33] Katie: So I think those terms have been around before. I think a lot of it is to do with social media again and there seems to be like this idea that we have to either pathologise or name things all the time. So like, a child misbehaves at school, oh they've probably got ADHD. That could be totally normal behaviour, I mean normal in inverted commas, you know. So, I think there is this idea of like, putting labels on things. I don't quite know where that's come from. It seems to be like very prevalent at the moment of like five ways you might be autistic that you didn't know meant you're autistic and like self diagnosing and as always, there's parts of that are helpful, you know, people are discovering things about neurodiversity or discovering, Oh, the reason I can't stop thinking about this thing that happened years ago is because I have PTSD. That can be really helpful, but it can also really be minimising people who do genuinely have ADHD or PTSD or other conditions like, I know it used to be called manic depression, bipolar disorder. [00:04:51] Annabel: Oh, yeah. Okay. [00:04:52] Katie: So minimizing what happens for those people and their very real experience of having maybe severe experiences of those disorders. I was reading an article in the New Yorker and I think an interesting thing that I picked up there was the idea of being triggered. So if you say something is you're triggered by something, it's a way to avoid having a feeling in a way. So it's kind of the writer was saying triggered versus saying you're angry or scared. So, you can read something and be triggered in a PTSD way, or you can read something and it brings up a feeling and that's not the same thing, but it's being described as the same thing. [00:05:38] Annabel: So interesting that you're, so you're not allowing yourself to even acknowledge the thing. So you just say, I'm triggered, that triggered me and you're almost like self analyzing yourself in terms of like, I get it. I get it. I was triggered by this feeling and you don't have to, you don't have to really do any more work then. You don't have to feel the feeling. You don't have to like, say exactly what happened. It was just, it triggered me and it's like, okay, that's cool to be triggered, like, or because we all talk about things being triggering. [00:06:11] Katie: Yeah, or like it's inappropriate, that person's behaved inappropriately because they triggered me. and actually, what might be more interesting, If you feel like you want to use that word, is to think, what is the feeling behind that? Do I feel angry about it? And why do I feel angry about that? That's not to minimise the feeling, but just to, like, explore it a bit more deeply than just, like, shutting it off, because it feels really, to me, like an emotional distancing from something, which I think is really interesting that therapy is a growing market, and the instance of depression is growing, but we don't seem to have got better at talking about our feelings, really. Like, I think it's still quite uncommon to be like, I feel, to say to someone, oh, I feel really angry. I don't really hear anyone saying that kind of thing, but that's a real feeling that is quite often avoided. So, yeah, I thought that was interesting, thinking about how this language distances you from your feelings sometimes and then also to think about how it's kind of, if you're saying that person is a narcissist, it's like almost putting you in the role of like someone with knowledge who is superior to that person who doesn't know what's, in inverted commas, wrong with them, or they've behaved in a way that you feel like there's something wrong with them, was actually, I mean, they could be a narcissist, but they could just behave badly and there's a big difference. [00:07:52] Annabel: It reminds me a bit of when we were talking about the language used sometimes in it, sort of to talk about wellness, it's sometimes things are like dressed up and with overinflated language and I feel like, Narcissist. I mean, well you can tell me maybe, but I feel like it is a word that is used a lot to just like basically yeah, exactly, superiority over the other person. Highlighting that you yourself are not a narcissist. 'cause you can recognize a narcissistic behavior even though maybe you are and you're still using it anyway. [00:08:30] Katie: So the definition that is in the DSM, which is the kind of manual of diagnostic things, is narcissistic personality disorder. It says when, while many people have traits that might be considered narcissistic, that's not the same as narcissistic personality disorder. It's only when these traits are inflexible, maladaptive, and persisting or cause significant functional impairment or subjective distress do they constitute narcissistic personality disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder is basically, just to distill it down because there's a long definition, is a pattern of grandiosity, so either you fantasize or you behave as though you're above everyone. need for admiration and lack of empathy, so they can't perhaps recognise their behavior as well. That's not to say that someone in your life might, you have narcissistic personality disorder and you might be recognizing that correctly. Not everyone who is a bit arrogant is a narcissist, [00:09:35] Annabel: Yeah. That's, yeah. So it's just, like, because I guess when I think about narcissists, this is maybe I need therapy, but I go to like Patrick Bateman in American Psycho because I just think like, I mean, I think he probably had a lot of issues, but like somebody that is just like self obsessed, doesn't think about anyone else at all, constantly like thinking about their physical appearance and just, yeah, general vibes, but I guess, I guess what I was thinking then is what is calling somebody else a narcissist achieving? Like it's not like they're going to go and get an intervention. Like I just want, like, it, it just feels to me like a sort of... [00:10:22] Katie: I think a narcissist probably wouldn't recrecogniseat they're a narcissist. [00:10:26] Annabel: Okay, interesting. Right. So they just... [00:10:30] Katie: my understanding. [00:10:31] Annabel: Right. [00:10:32] Katie: I don't know, maybe some people do, but I think you can be treated as well, like you can go to therapy for narcissistic personality disorder and you can have talking therapies and other things. So it's not like oh you're a narcissist, therefore you're a bad person, but I think it can be damaging for yourself and others around you and can fracture relationships and stuff. But I think it is interesting thinking, yeah, why do we want to call people narcissists? Because what's going on in you that makes you think that someone is, or why do you think they are? Is it genuinely because they're exhibiting all these traits, or is it just that you think they're a bit up themselves? [00:11:18] Annabel: Yeah, or they've like been horrible to your friend in a relationship, but because I think that's where I hear it a lot, like, I don't want to generalise, I hear it a lot about men who have like, I hear it a lot, yeah, about yeah, men have behaved poorly in relationships. [00:11:36] Katie: But you can behave badly without having a personality disorder, without being labelled with something and I sometimes feel that urge in me as well, to like, be like, label behaviour and most of the time I try and resist it, but I think that there is that thing, and I think it's pushed by Instagram all the time, and what works on the algorithm is like, these things of like, five traits of a narcissistic person, how to tell if your friend's a narcissist, like, how to tell if you're ADHD, all these things are like perpetuated by these sources that are just not accurate at all. [00:12:11] Annabel: But I guess it helps in a way to like, talk about, label things because it sort of puts behaviour in a box and it makes it kind of almost, not more palatable, but like more, like when something horrendous, well not necessarily horrendous, we've been very triggered, but when something has happened, we kind of want to make sense of it, like that's why we want to talk about it, like with our friends or with our therapist or whoever, like because it helps us to, and I'm maybe not like big traumas, but like if something bad has happened, you had a bad day, someone's been horrible to you or behaved in a way that's made you feel really upset. I always feel like then I want to talk about it. I need to sort of offload it and I need to like create a story around it or understand why that happened the way that it happened, because for me, I can kind of... [00:13:04] Katie: yeah, I'm the same. [00:13:06] Annabel: So I wonder if some of this terminology is like a way for us to sort of put behavior in a box and be like, Oh, okay, it was because of this thing happened because of this and it's almost like branding in a way. It's almost like we brand it, we give it its own little story and then we can kind of put it away in a little book. [00:13:25] Katie: I mean, side note, it's interesting that how a lot of women process, which I do the same as you, is also called gossiping because for me, I need to talk about stuff and if someone heard me, they'd probably say I was gossiping or being bitchy, actually it's a way of processing, but yeah, that's another podcast. But yeah, I think it maybe plays into that idea of like, distancing yourself from feelings again, like, is it that if you can say, oh, it's that person, they gaslit me. It puts all the, responsibility onto them and it takes away, like, the underlying feeling of, like, I feel really upset or angry or not listened to or whatever. [00:14:10] Annabel: Yeah, cause I, gaslight's a good one. [00:14:14] Katie: Which leads us on to gaslighting. [00:14:16] Annabel: I have never, ever heard anyone say that they gaslit someone else. I never hit and I've never thought I gaslit that person, ever. I've never thought about it from the perspective of like, the person doing the behaviour. It always seems to come from like, the person, which I get, experiencing it, but I wonder like, is that to do with like perception of what's happened? Anyway, you can tell me more about... [00:14:47] Katie: Well, okay, so gaslighting is not an actual thing. [00:14:52] Annabel: Okay, we just all made it up? [00:14:54] Katie: It's a colloquialism, so like it's a description of behaviours rather than like a disorder or anything. So, it, you can define it as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality and it comes from the film Gaslight, which was in 1944. So, the most distinctive feature of gaslighting is that it's not enough for the gaslighter to simply control their victim or have things go their way. It's essential that the victim herself, or himself, actually comes to agree with him or her. It's manipulative, basically. So I think that it's often used as a shorthand for manipulative behaviour, but actual gaslighting, I don't know whether it's always intentional. But it feels like it might be quite often that you're trying to get someone to believe something that you want them to believe through your behaviour and through like, convincing them that they're wrong so that they feel a bit mad, or a lot mad. [00:15:53] Annabel: Yeah. [00:15:54] Katie: So it's interesting because I think you can define it however you want because it's not like an actual DSM thing, it is like a term that's just become popular and more popular recently. [00:16:10] Annabel: Yeah, because I wonder how many times the phrase is used and it's like actually it was just like a misunderstanding like you were just having a, you know, like I do, I use gaslight all the time at home with my partner because we're talking and I'll say something like, oh I told you I can't do the school run later and he'll say no you didn't and I'll say stop trying to gaslight [00:16:37] Katie: Well it could be! [00:16:38] Annabel: It could be, because I am sure in my mind that I have told him, but he, I think, you know, I do mostly trust him. So I think, so I think in those contexts, it's just literally what I've come to understand is that the same thing has happened and we've experienced it differently because he's not been listening or I've not been listening, you know, something has happened and we'll never know, we'll never know who was right in that situation. But then I'll be like, you're a gaslight to me, stop trying to exploit me and I, just, I think that is the thing, isn't it? The use has become, it's become more of general, like, I don't think he's trying to manipulate me.... [00:17:20] Katie: Well it would be, yeah, it would be part of a larger pattern if he was actually gaslighting you. It wouldn't just be about the school run. [00:17:27] Annabel: Yeah. [00:17:28] Katie: Unless really got a problem with the school run. [00:17:30] Annabel: Just doesn't want to go. Fair. [00:17:32] Katie: Who does? [00:17:32] Annabel: Yeah. [00:17:35] Katie: So yeah, I thought that was interesting. The other thing that I find personally really frustrating is boundaries, which I think is like a very good example of not having to feel stuff sometimes. So, boundaries are great. There's nothing wrong with having boundaries, I support everyone's boundaries, that's great. But I think quite often, I've experienced them or seen them being used as ways to put a wall and a wall that is like, I don't want to feel anything. So I'm going to put this boundary in place that means that I don't have to confront that feeling, I don't have to experience that person or that behaviour and I think that's where, for me, they become slightly problematic, that's a, we need a buzzer for that word, don't we? [00:18:34] Annabel: Problematic? Yeah, yeah. [00:18:35] Katie: So boundaries are defined as the behaviours that are acceptable for you. So like, they can be physical, emotional, or they can be based on time and space, like, don't contact me with it after 6pm, or something, if it's a work thing. But it, I've seen it that people just get really obsessed with their boundaries. I think for me, and I think maybe for others, having like a flexible boundary is quite useful. So I would prefer not to be contacted after 6pm about work stuff. But if someone has to ask me a question, I understand that's okay now and then. But if someone is doing it twice a week, then I might have a conversation with them. So, I think that is kind of where I see boundaries as being useful and when I see them as being a bit more tricky is when they're being used to distance or deflect feelings. So, like, people who don't like conflict I'm not going to talk about that as a boundary for me. But actually, conflict is a normal part of interactions and also, conflict can be really great for getting closer to people, through like, rupture and repair. So, it can be really healthy to have conflict. So, if you're avoiding conflict or avoiding other kinds of feelings, you're not going to have the same depth of relationships that you might do if you actually spoke about these things and confronted them with another person and worked out what's actually going on. [00:20:14] Annabel: Yeah, that's interesting, because I guess what, if you are, like, that's a boundary for me, I'm not going to talk about it, but the other person, like, involved, kind of, their boundary is like, actually, we need to talk about it. How, you know, I think, yeah, when it gets into sort of close relationships, it's difficult to, like, make it work for everyone, I guess. [00:20:38] Katie: Yeah, exactly and it's like you're setting a boundary that takes your desires and needs into account. So whether it is a friendship or romantic relationship, you're not like working out together. Usually, I mean, great if you do, but usually you're not working out together what that boundary is. It's like, well, this is my need and sometimes, I mean, I do this as well, so I'm not blameless. [00:21:04] Annabel: There was a great viral song, which I wrote a story about actually, called The Boundary Song. Did you see this? It's like a little, it's like for kids, basically and it's really catchy. [00:21:16] Katie: Oh, okay. [00:21:17] Annabel: And it's like, oh, I don't want to sing, but it goes, please stop, I don't like that, I'm feeling uncomfortable, I need more space, not around me, don't take it personally. It's just a boundary. [00:21:28] Katie: Sure you don't want to sing that? [00:21:29] Annabel: Don't want to sing but you can go find it on YouTube and my daughter sings that, like, to my son when he's like, wants to wrestle. [00:21:37] Katie: Mmm. [00:21:38] Annabel: But I think, yeah, I agree, like collectively, it seems like, but, you know, boundaries are really good and actually having that language is good, but it's, it is, like you said, it's all about this one person, like the complete opposite, I guess, to like narcissism and gaslighting. We say boundaries about ourselves. We talk about our boundaries, my boundaries, this is what I need and maybe they're, it's like at the expense of collective care sometimes or what we need more broadly. [00:22:06] Katie: I think like group boundaries can be really good and you can discuss those as a group. But I think the individual ones, I just so often see them as a way to like cut a feeling or self protect, which I can understand and empathise with, but I don't think it's very helpful or even healthy sometimes to have these like very rigid boundaries that means that your interactions are limited, like no conflict, no upset, no anger. [00:22:43] Annabel: Because also you like you have to have for some friction in your life like you have because that's how you learn, is that and I think that's I've heard a sort of debate that says as our lives become more Frictionless like we can do everything online, we can order our shopping, we can order our food, we can order our taxis, we can everything, you don't have to go to the shop, you don't have to wait you don't get like micro annoyances and so, if you like shut your, or you kind of become so used to not having anything annoying or going slightly wrong, then when things do go wrong, it's like catastrophe. So you're not having the like, practicing the kind of the friction. [00:23:30] Katie: And all relationships have friction. There's no relationship that has no friction. I mean, to greater or lesser extents. Like, friends, family, relationships, you're all gonna like, fall out, do annoying things, be dickheads to each other sometimes. So like, if you pretend that doesn't happen, or if you shut that off, what then happens to that relationship? If you can't repair it and discuss it, does that mean that you lose more friends or relations? I don't know, but I think it's interesting to think about what might happen to the other person and how they're feeling and what their relationship to your boundary might be. So yeah, so therapy speak is everywhere. We all use it in inappropriate ways, and also I just, on that topic of like, how it's been around quite a long time, if you think about Second World War and the idea of shell shock, which we now would call PTSD, that I imagine might have been used in the same way to explain people's behaviors where maybe it was or maybe it wasn't applicable. I don't know, I'm just imagining that might have been something that happened and I think although the discussion and the discourse on mental health has changed quite significantly, you're still more likely to have your mental health stuff minimised than discussed and understood and I think it's good to be able to talk about all of these things, but thinking about why we might want to label people is interesting and like, what does that give us? Because it's not really, unless you're saying it to them, I think, you know, I think maybe it can be helpful for some people to have a diagnosis or be told, I think you might have ADHD, do you want to explore that? That might be really helpful for someone if done in the right way. If you're just talking to your friends and thinking, Oh, I think they've got ADHD or I think they're a narcissist, then how helpful is that? It's not helpful to them, how is that helpful to you? Is it a way of avoiding something? I don't know, do I sound too much like I'm running a therapy session? [00:25:49] Annabel: No, I think that's, I think that's really true. I think what the reason we like using that wording is because it, rightly or wrongly, lets us kind of grasp at things that are kind of ungraspable. To understand it and to like use the language and I guess like language always evolves and it always changes and it's like when my, I've noticed like when my dad gets, you know, used to get really cross with us all for saying like all the time, or now, and now my daughter does it as well, and I've noticed him picking up on it, and it's like, Like, like, like, language evolves and it changes and the way we use it changes and evolves and I think some of these words, they become almost like a shared connection I guess with someone as well. It's like, you know, when you and I turn up and we've both got our Uniqlo bags on, it's like a shared reference point for people so that you can kind of go into the shorthand and you can kind of connect or grasp, you know, difficult conversations together and... [00:26:58] Katie: Yeah. [00:26:59] Annabel: Like, maybe it's pathologising. You're, I don't know, I think the reason that we use these words is because we want to understand and we want to kind of make use of it and I think the issue, I guess, is that does it minimise the kind of the bigger things if we're just using it to talk about our kind of micro inconvenience? [00:27:21] Katie: Yeah, I think one point that the New Yorker article made was that so these kinds of language, the language of suffering often finds its way into the mouths of those who suffer least. So who are the people using these terms and talking about it? It's not people who are really having a hard time. It's usually someone on Instagram trying to sell you a coaching course. [00:27:46] Annabel: Yeah, or you like moaning, or you like moaning to your friends. Yeah, Yeah, because actually when the shit hits the fan, you're not like in the moment talking about like gaslighting and the truama like you're not, you're just dealing with the thing. [00:28:05] Katie: So what's your takeaway on Therapy Speak then? [00:28:08] Annabel: Therapy speak. I guess, stop calling my husband a gaslighter, number one. [00:28:15] Katie: Unless he is gaslighting you. [00:28:16] Annabel: Maybe he is. Maybe this is all... [00:28:18] Katie: Oh no, go to therapy. Yeah. [00:28:22] Annabel: I guess the thing is you can't, I think we use these words because they make us feel kind of empowered and they make us maybe feel a bit superior if we're using them [00:28:32] Katie: about people. Right, and it's also like a quick like, oh, they're this rather than explaining the whole context. [00:28:37] Annabel: Exactly I don't have to give you the backstory. I don't have to tell you about what a terrible person they are it's, and I but I guess the thing is like you can't you don't win therapy, do you? Don't win. [00:28:50] Katie: I'd like to! [00:28:53] Annabel: But you can't, like, using all the, you can have all the vocabulary and all the words in the world and you can feel clever about your sentence structure or whatever and you can feel really connected with the person that you're talking to with the shared language, but actually the language it's not fixing the problem, like it might be shorthand for some of it. I don't think it's all bad, this Therapy Speak. I think some of it's useful, but I guess just the more we use it and I don't think there's anything individually we can do because culture is going to change and the language is going to evolve and shift, but I guess the issue is then if language like, narcissist becomes so ubiquitous that it doesn't mean anything anymore. That probably is an issue and actually maybe some of the like more therapeutic language is going to have to evolve like to something above it. [00:29:46] Katie: Yeah and I think the trauma thing can be really minimising for people as well. But, but again, that's difficult because. I can describe something to you that I found traumatic and you might be like, well what's her problem with that? Like, it's fine, so it's difficult and nuanced as always. But I think what's most interesting to me is like, the idea of it distancing yourself from a feeling. I think that's really interesting. So I think we all find it hard to feel our feelings, even though we supposedly know more about therapy and mental health than ever before. Actually, we all are trying to like, avoid our feelings frantically all the time. [00:30:29] Annabel: Yeah, right, maybe we're just getting better at the words, but we're not actually, like, doing the work that you've got to do, like, underneath it.