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This. Is the Guardian. Of

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to Weekend a podcast the helps you

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switch off from you're busy day to

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day and five Entertainment and Inspiration and

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the best guide your an observer writing

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from the week. You can either listen

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to this as one podcast will play

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each article as individualisms just go down

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on the podcast. Paid for the timings

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of what we have featuring. Coming

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up. From. Tucker Carlson

0:32

to Johnny Depp a celebrity bromance

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is they must have accessory for

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them more than dictator says Marina

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to Black Box a new podcast

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Soon. Before.

3:18

We begin. Just a warning: There's a bit

3:20

of bad language in this episode. Mean.

3:24

What? Do you do when you're a

3:26

high profile American man? He suffered a

3:28

career setback or in desperate need of

3:30

love. Why? You run into the

3:32

open arms of a despot as as marine

3:34

I'd. Read. My colleagues

3:36

p. B.

3:39

Hold the current must have

3:41

accessory for all the most

3:43

grimly murderous dictators. A

3:45

pet American Idiot. Not.

3:47

Just any American idiot obviously.

3:50

You. Need a male mid fifties the

3:52

early sixties ideally fire damaged by a

3:54

recent career set back to just wants

3:56

to see the best in use a

3:59

coins. In. short, you

4:01

need someone of the...calibre,

4:03

would you call it, of Tucker

4:06

Carlson or Johnny Depp. The

4:09

past week or two have seen

4:11

the formal reveal of two of

4:13

these new dictator pet acquisitions. Vladimir

4:16

Putin's kind offer to re-home the

4:18

stray former Fox News host and

4:20

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's

4:22

generous response to the question, how

4:25

much is that deppy in the

4:27

window? Answer? A

4:29

rumoured seven-figure tourism promo deal and

4:32

forking out for one somewhat indifferent

4:34

period French film. I

4:36

know, pets are very reasonably priced,

4:39

not to say embarrassingly cheap. So

4:43

let's start with Johnny Depp, the

4:45

joint subject of a most

4:47

eye-catching Vanity Fair article headlined,

4:50

Inside Johnny Depp's Epic Bromance

4:52

with Saudi Crown Prince MBS.

4:55

Yes, yes, please take us

4:57

inside it. Although we reserve

4:59

the right to leave at any time without

5:01

being dismembered. The safe word

5:03

is Raytheon. According

5:06

to the article, Depp first came into

5:08

contact with the Saudi ruler while working

5:11

on a precariously financed French film, last

5:13

year's Jean de Barry. Having

5:16

secured Saudi funding, the movie's producers

5:18

required their star to meet MBS's

5:20

cousin, a guy called Prince Bader,

5:23

who also serves as some kind

5:25

of cultural bag man. I'm

5:27

getting huge ribbon-drop energy, but perhaps

5:30

he's adorable. Anyway, one

5:32

thing led to another and within

5:34

months Depp was revelling in all

5:36

expenses paid trips and face-to-face time

5:38

with MBS. Listening to

5:40

his excuses about the murder of

5:43

Jamal Khashoggi and making a

5:45

genuine connection. Hey, the

5:47

heart wants what it wants. Likewise

5:50

the wallet. According to Vanity

5:52

Fair, both men knew how

5:54

it felt to suddenly go from Golden Boy

5:56

to Outcast. And certainly

5:58

the fates can be. very cruel.

6:02

As can movie financing. Seriously,

6:06

why spend years waiting for your

6:08

producer to patchwork together some shaky

6:10

funding from the French Film Foundation,

6:12

plus a lottery grant, plus an

6:14

endowment from the Trudy Styler cinema

6:17

in Perilfund, plus 50 quid from

6:19

UNESCO, plus some crappy Belgian tax

6:21

credits? You have something

6:23

really important to get made in

6:25

which you get to crossly overturn

6:27

a small occasional table in Versailles,

6:29

all while wearing a feathered tricorn

6:31

hat. How dare the

6:33

market deny the culture this future

6:36

gem? How dare people think your

6:38

god-given right to pretend to be

6:40

someone else for money should depend

6:43

on such shifting sands? Why

6:45

not just go to Daddy Bonesaw and get

6:47

his chump change in five seconds? And

6:50

listen, MBS's Red Sea Film Fund wants

6:52

nothing more than to finance a film

6:54

about a French courtesan. Given

6:57

that the finished movie contravenes about

6:59

437 of his country's decency and

7:01

modesty laws, I guess

7:03

something about Dubarry's life just spoke to

7:06

MBS. Maybe the fact a woman

7:08

gets her head cut off. For

7:11

his part, Depp responded to Vanity

7:13

Fair's request for comment on his

7:15

new alliance with a lengthy statement

7:17

claiming to have experienced

7:19

first-hand the cultural revolution that

7:22

is happening in Foudy

7:24

from emerging young storytellers radiating

7:27

fresh ideas and works of

7:29

art to a blossoming film

7:32

infrastructure and a newfound

7:34

curiosity for innovation. Attaboy!

7:38

In terms of the old quid pro quo,

7:41

do remember that Depp has in

7:43

recent years been saddled with what

7:46

euphemism forces us to style expensive

7:48

legal setbacks followed by

7:50

expensive legal victories. He

7:53

reportedly has an endless array of

7:55

luxury properties to maintain including a

7:57

French village he was trying to

8:00

sell and a private Caribbean

8:02

island. A private island?

8:04

Of course! Have anything good

8:06

ever come of a white man owning

8:08

a private Caribbean island? Don't

8:11

write in Branson, even though

8:13

I'm using your letters to make a paper mache

8:15

sculpture of you carrying a woman in the course

8:17

of a promotional stunt. I call

8:19

it the ally. But

8:22

let's move on to Tucker Carlson, who

8:24

recently went all the way to Moscow

8:26

to interview the Russian president in hardcore

8:28

lap-doggy style. There

8:31

is a grim sort of

8:33

poetic justice to the fact

8:35

this televised fauna-thon took place

8:37

just days before Putin's likely

8:39

murder of Alexei Navalny, which

8:41

itself seems to have occurred around

8:43

the time Tucker was filming imbecilically

8:46

approving videos in a Russian supermarket.

8:48

Did you see the one where he seems

8:51

to think he has discovered a cutting-edge Russian

8:53

invention in the form of supermarket trolleys you

8:55

need to release with a coin? I

8:58

love that it reveals how much Tucker's

9:00

producer hates him, willingly allowing

9:03

his super rich boss to

9:05

stray into elite self-parody by

9:07

lording something freely available to

9:09

US citizens in Aldi's and

9:11

airports for quite, quite some

9:13

time now. In

9:16

related news then, a word on pet

9:18

cruelty. At this stage,

9:20

Depp has yet to feel the sharp

9:23

end of an emerging young storyteller radiating

9:25

fresh ideas. But Tucker's

9:27

claim to have been in

9:29

Moscow doing hard journalism was

9:32

excruciatingly fact-checked by Putin himself,

9:34

who shortly after the interview aired,

9:36

appeared on TV with a smirk

9:38

to lament the fact Tucker didn't

9:40

ask any tough questions. How

9:43

mean! A Tucker should be for

9:45

life, not just for propaganda Christmas. Finally,

9:49

a bizarrely blame-free social media post

9:51

about Navalny by Donald Trump suggests

9:53

the Russian president still has old

9:55

dogs who pee on the rug

9:58

slash Moscow Hotel Mall. In

10:01

fact, speaking of going to the

10:03

mattresses, the prospect of that

10:05

particular dictator hound throwing down for Putin

10:07

is more grotesque by the day, and

10:10

the very strongest of arguments for a

10:12

no pets rule in the White House.

10:18

That was, from Top of Dawson to

10:20

Johnny Depp, a celebrity bromance is the

10:22

must have accessory for the modern dictator.

10:25

I'm Arima Hyde, read by

10:27

Carlees Pear. Next.

10:31

It's twenty years since the Libertines

10:33

topped the charts, then fought, stagnated

10:35

and then hoarded.

10:38

But now Pete Doherty and Karl Barrett are

10:40

back. Was it easy recording together

10:42

again, asked Simon Hasselstoun? Depends

10:44

who you are. Read

10:46

by Sam Swainsbury. I

10:52

have done battle with the Libertines three times

10:54

over the past nineteen years. Only

10:57

I haven't. Not really. Two

11:00

of the interviews were with Pete Doherty for

11:02

projects away from the band that made him

11:04

famous, Baby Shambles and the Puta Madres. The

11:07

first was in a mangy London hotel bedroom in

11:10

2005. He

11:12

was sitting on a motorbike, revving it up when

11:14

he was awake. Much of the time he was

11:17

asleep. He was twenty-six,

11:19

surrounded by drugs paraphernalia and had

11:21

daubed rough trade on the wall

11:23

in his own blood. Last

11:27

time he met, four years ago, he was

11:29

in Betternich and more sociable. That

11:32

said, he was still smoking crack, threw a punch

11:34

that just missed me, kissed my forehead by way

11:36

of apology and took me to his wreck of

11:38

a house where he tried to flog me his

11:40

possessions. He

11:42

still had something about him, a wasted

11:45

brilliance and surprising charm that he

11:47

failed to hide, despite his

11:49

best efforts. As

11:52

for his soul brother and sparring partner, Karl Barrett,

11:54

I met him in 2006 when he was also

11:58

recovering from the Libertines. Barrett

12:00

had just formed Dirty Pretty Things and the

12:03

band was releasing its first album. He

12:06

was quiet, likeable and

12:08

profoundly depressed. Barrett

12:10

talked a lot about Evil Karl, the self-destructive

12:12

side of him that had a downer in

12:14

life. In a different way,

12:17

you worried as much for the future of Barrett as

12:19

for Doherty. Now

12:22

they are back together for their fourth album

12:24

in 22 years. In 2015, 11 years after

12:29

their second album, they released Anthems

12:31

for Doomed Youth. The

12:33

Wilfred Owen-inspired title was Classic Libertines,

12:35

even if the album wasn't, poignant,

12:38

poetic and fuelled by war of

12:40

one kind or another. All

12:43

quiet on the eastern Esplanade,

12:45

their new record is another

12:47

Classic Libertines title, again referencing

12:49

war, literature and trauma. The

12:52

difference is that this is a Classic

12:54

Libertines album. There is the

12:56

rollicking boisterousness of old in tracks such

12:59

as Run Run Run, writerly songs

13:01

that allude to 20th Century Hollywood, Night

13:03

of the Hunter and ballads of

13:05

shimmering beauty, songs they never play

13:08

on the radio. Was

13:10

it easy recording together again? No,

13:14

Barrett says quickly. Karl

13:16

insisted on there being no alcohol even,

13:18

Doherty says. He wanted it to be

13:20

pure. It's not like I want to

13:22

get pissed but I like a glass of cider and

13:24

he's like no. It was pressure.

13:27

We'd never done it before. The studio had

13:29

always been a time of merriment and celebration. Was

13:33

Doherty surprised he could create while sober

13:35

and clean of drugs? I

13:37

was relieved and proud. To

13:39

be able to say to my wife, I'm not drinking, I

13:42

was proud. What's it like to

13:44

be back together? Doherty gives me a

13:46

scornful look. I don't know if

13:48

that question makes any sense. Barrett.

13:51

We've been back together since 2010. Doherty. He didn't

13:54

know what he was talking about. They're ganging

13:56

up on me. What I mean, I

13:58

say, is it's almost a decade since the

14:01

last album. They give each other

14:03

a conspiratorial look. It's a

14:05

better story actually to say we haven't been together, Barrett

14:07

says. They decide they quite like this version

14:09

of history. I like it when someone

14:11

comes who doesn't know anything about us, Doherty

14:13

says sweetly. His moods change

14:16

today as rapidly as they ever did. What

14:20

is different, they say, is that

14:22

this is the first time they've taken pleasure in the

14:24

product of their toils. Today we

14:26

were coming up the M23 and we actually

14:28

listened to the new album from start to

14:30

finish, Doherty says. We had

14:32

a sing-along, a bit of a laugh, a bit

14:34

of a cry. That's something we've never done before.

14:37

Put on our own record and listen to it on a

14:39

car journey. Barrett, and

14:41

definitely not laughing and crying. Doherty,

14:44

that must say something powerful. There

14:47

have been many times in his life when he

14:49

thought he'd had it with music, he says, but

14:51

he always finds himself returning to his guitar. It's

14:54

a calling like the priesthood. It

14:56

will always call certain types of men or women. Barrett,

14:59

it's like a call to arms. Doherty

15:01

tuts. Why do you always

15:03

see the dark side? What

15:06

made them cry when listening to the album? We were

15:08

coming up the Westway and at that moment

15:10

songs they never play on the radio came

15:12

on and a flood of memories related to

15:14

the A40 in London in general. The

15:17

song fades out into a chaotic blur of

15:19

jitter and laughter. Even that bit

15:22

Barrett says, I thought, God, we

15:24

do like each other. We had friends together and

15:26

it was real. I don't like the

15:28

word fun, Doherty says grouchily. They

15:32

still go at each other like squabbling lovers.

15:36

We meet at a photographic studio in London.

15:39

They're wearing stylish suits for the shoot.

15:42

Barrett is little changed. Lice, fit,

15:44

glossy brown pop star hair. Doherty

15:47

couldn't look more different. 20

15:49

years ago, he was skinny, boyish with

15:52

a fragile beauty. Today, his

15:54

hair is gray and he's a huge

15:56

wardrobe of a man. When

15:58

Doherty piles on the pounds. It usually

16:00

means he's not taking drugs. It's

16:02

when he's at his skinniest we need to worry. Today

16:06

he lives in northern France with his

16:08

wife Katja and their baby Billy May.

16:11

He has two other children but admits this

16:13

is the first time he's been a present father.

16:16

That's largely down to being clean. I

16:19

gave up the main poisons and my health

16:21

improved. Then he gets old alcohol and cheese

16:23

and sugar are just as bad and you

16:25

were healthier when you were on heroin. Barret

16:28

gluttony. Doherty. Yeah

16:30

I am a bit of a glutton. It's not

16:32

a joke. I've been diagnosed with type

16:34

2 diabetes and at the moment I'm

16:36

lacking a discipline to tackle cholesterol. Is

16:39

Barret surprised that Doherty's still here? Am

16:42

I surprised Peter's still alive? No he's

16:45

too smart to die. He never intended to die.

16:48

Doherty. I always wanted to see the

16:50

result of things. I don't switch your

16:52

telly off halfway through election night. I

16:54

want to see what happens. Is Doherty

16:56

surprised that Barret's still here? Yes.

16:59

There were times I worried about him so much particularly

17:01

in the early days. He wasn't

17:04

very stable. It's interesting that people

17:06

have tended to worry more for Doherty I say

17:08

whereas in fact he may have been the stronger

17:10

one. Now it's Barret's

17:12

turn to take offense. Hang on. I

17:14

had to pull myself up from the wreckage mate. That

17:17

takes some strength. He's right. Both

17:19

have shown extreme vulnerability and resilience.

17:23

Their relationship is one of pop's great

17:26

roller coaster romances. They met

17:28

when at different London universities. Barret

17:30

a year older was studying drama

17:32

at Brunel. Doherty was reading English

17:34

at Queen Mary. Both dropped

17:37

out. Doherty's sister Amy

17:39

Jo became close friends with Barret. Her

17:41

sister came home and said she'd met this guy

17:43

who was really fit with a ponytail and a

17:46

six-pack and he was a really good guitarist. Doherty

17:48

fell for him as soon as they met. I

17:51

thought he was a cross between Raskolnikov and Johnny

17:54

Marr. It just seemed like a man on

17:56

a mission. You couldn't pin him down. If

17:58

you tried to have a conversation with him you end

18:00

up in a heated debate very quickly.

18:03

It'd start destroying things and I thought

18:05

what the fuck is this? How

18:07

did he destroy things? He was

18:09

angry but there was also

18:11

a creative beautiful side. I tried

18:13

to befriend him but there was no way in. I thought

18:16

oh I'm not good enough to be your mate. So

18:19

I just hounded him really. That's the truth

18:21

isn't it? He looks at Barrett.

18:23

Barrett. Yeah that's 27

18:25

years ago. Doherty says it wasn't

18:28

like him to do the chasing. It

18:30

was usually the other way around but he

18:32

wanted to start a band and Barrett was

18:34

perfect for it. I knew

18:36

that I needed a good looking guitarist but

18:38

also Karl wasn't your average sort of lad.

18:40

He was an impenetrable fortress. Raskolnikov

18:43

crossed with Johnny Marr. I

18:45

quite like that. He chuckles pleased with himself.

18:48

Barrett I don't know who the first one

18:50

is. Doherty. Raskolnikov from

18:52

Crime and Punishment. Barrett.

18:55

Oh yeah I've got you now. Why

18:58

was Barrett so angry at the time? Stuff

19:00

I don't want to talk about but I had a lot of unhappiness

19:02

in my childhood. Maybe I was born angry

19:05

but my battle has been with that and depression in

19:07

the wake of the anger. How's his depression eased?

19:10

Yeah. I'm here aren't I? He's

19:13

been in therapy for nine years and says it

19:15

is heaped. It makes it more

19:17

manageable. I'm certainly not as angry as I

19:19

was and I'm not a loose guy.

19:22

He talks so quickly with a nasal twang

19:24

that sometimes it's hard to catch his words.

19:27

Your speech hasn't slowed down over the years I

19:29

say. No. There's a lot going on there. I

19:32

think they call it ADHD these days. Doherty

19:34

drags on his fag dismissively.

19:36

Bloody hell. This

19:38

interview. Barrett ignores him.

19:41

I did a screening recently that said it's likely. He

19:44

grins. My wife keeps leaving books out

19:46

with titles like How to Deal with ADHD in a

19:48

marriage. Doherty. They

19:51

used to just call it personality. Now they've got all

19:53

sorts of names for it. I

19:56

tell Doherty he seems much more self-conscious now

19:58

he's sober. I know. I must

20:00

have been so mangled the last time we met that I got

20:02

really into it and now I'm just being defensive imagining

20:05

what all this is going to lead to. So

20:07

there's two ways to do this. Try

20:09

to seduce you and establish a great relationship

20:12

with you so you don't betray me. Or

20:15

just don't read the fucking article, which is what

20:17

I've tended to do for the last 21 years. Suddenly

20:21

he perks up and asks what he was like

20:23

when we first met. Was a hotel

20:25

in Brick Lane? I was happy as

20:27

a sandboy at that time, but now there

20:29

wouldn't be the blood or the needles. They

20:31

were my tools in a well. Now I'm

20:34

happy with Gladys, his fabulous Mastiff

20:36

cross, who's here today. Walking

20:38

in the woods and changing the baby. And

20:41

I have a glass of cider and a cigarette. But

20:43

I'm quite curious. I wouldn't mind

20:45

being a fly on the wall back then. It would

20:47

probably break my heart. Barret. It

20:50

broke our fucking hearts mate. We were flies

20:52

on the fucking wall. He sounds upset.

20:55

Almost angry. Doherty. I

20:58

don't particularly want to go over all this. Normally

21:00

I enjoy reminiscing about this kind of thing, but

21:02

I don't think it's healthy to do that today.

21:05

I mean, what are you trying to do by asking these questions? I'm

21:08

trying to find out about your lives and how

21:10

you've changed, I say. He's got

21:13

you there, Bas, Barret says in a broad

21:15

Bronx accent. Eventually,

21:18

Barret succumbed to the young Doherty's charms. They

21:21

formed the Libertines, united by a

21:23

love of poetry, punk and chaos.

21:26

Doherty and Barret came from very different

21:28

backgrounds. Barret had grown up

21:30

on a council estate in Basingstoke. His

21:32

mother was a CND activist, his father an

21:35

artist, until he found a job at an

21:37

arms factory. Not surprisingly,

21:39

his parents split up. Doherty's

21:41

father was a major in the royal signals

21:44

and the family moved around the country with

21:46

his job. Until he was

21:48

15, Doherty was convinced that he would

21:50

also join the forces and serve his country.

21:53

Both were clever boys who gave up

21:55

on university. Barret discovered drugs at

21:57

the age of 10. Doherty

21:59

much later. In the early

22:01

days, he says, he only took them to

22:03

impress Barrett. Barrett

22:06

was by far the better musician. He

22:09

dreamed of killing it on stage, but he'd

22:11

not reckoned with nerves. I was

22:13

so shy. When I finally got to

22:15

where I'd been pushing myself my entire life, I'd

22:18

be crippled by self-doubt and terror. I

22:20

wasn't able to commit in the way Peter wanted. I

22:23

was going, oh my god, this is

22:25

terrifying. Was Do-Hitty shy? Was

22:28

he shy? He was

22:31

not shy, no. He doesn't know

22:33

what shyness is. He says the only

22:35

time he's ever seen a hint of it is

22:37

if the conversation turns dirty in front of Katya.

22:40

Do-Hitty nods. There's something

22:42

from my childhood that's been instilled in me.

22:45

It's like a knee-jerk reaction. She

22:47

swears like a trooper. She doesn't get offended,

22:49

but yeah, for some reason I still have

22:51

those Victorian standards. Perhaps

22:54

that's the influence of your father. Yeah,

22:56

he's the same. It's strange,

22:58

Do-Hitty says. Barrett, it's

23:01

a prudish thing, really, isn't it? Do-Hitty.

23:04

Yeah, prudishness. Do-Hitty

23:06

has had a difficult relationship with his father. How

23:09

do they get on there? Why do you ask that? I'm

23:12

an interviewer, I tell him. I'm here to

23:14

ask questions, and I'm nosy. Barrett

23:16

grins. He's got you there, boss, he

23:18

says again in the Bronx accent. I

23:21

seem to talk about that a lot, Do-Hitty says.

23:24

When Robert Carle and I talked about fathers in the

23:26

early days, we really bonded. How fucked up

23:28

we were about them. I'd love to be

23:30

able to ask him, but I don't think I

23:33

could ever say to him, how do we get on, Dad? Then

23:36

he comes to a stop. Whose business

23:38

is it anyway? What does it matter? Do

23:41

you really care? Yes, I

23:43

say. I want to find out what makes you

23:45

tick. What makes you the person you are?

23:48

He softens. I love him so

23:50

much, and I feel that a big part of

23:53

me changing the way I'm living my life, particularly

23:55

since I got married and stopped taking heroin, is

23:57

to be accepted by him. And now... Doherty's

24:00

tearful. I've never seen him like this before.

24:03

I think it's too much for him to see

24:05

past. You don't have to go that far,

24:08

Barrett says gently. Doherty.

24:11

I think I've done things that have made

24:13

our relationship better but in my heart I still feel

24:15

I can't... I don't know. I'd

24:18

have to score a hat-trick in the World Cup Final

24:20

for my dad to say all is forgiven or make

24:22

a million from selling this album. When

24:24

I go up there with Billy May and my wife he

24:26

says to me, are you still trying with the music? If

24:29

I picked him up on a limo with a chauffeur

24:31

or had a helicopter landing he'd be like, oh yeah,

24:34

but for me I've always been happy to write songs

24:36

that I'm fucking proud of. Maybe

24:38

I'm still really seeking it. He's

24:41

weeping silently, thinking about how much

24:43

his father's approval would mean to him. Does

24:45

he appreciate you being successful or did he

24:47

just see the negative stuff? Seconds

24:50

pass in silence. I

24:52

think he thinks I had potential and

24:54

throw it away. Barrett puts his

24:56

arm around Doherty. I've got

24:58

to tell you now mate, I think he's really

25:00

proud of you for just doing normal things he'd

25:02

never have expected. He struggles

25:04

to communicate it like you do. Doherty

25:08

smiles and says, we're doing

25:10

a therapy session for Pete. Life's

25:12

hard, I say. Doing normal

25:14

things, getting by, looking after family

25:16

is an achievement. Life is

25:18

hard, isn't it, Doherty says. I used to

25:20

think I could run on air but now I

25:23

feel the need for community and somebody who knows

25:25

how to fix pipes. Barrett laughs.

25:28

Can you do DIY Pete? Doherty

25:30

is recovered. Basic plumbing, yeah.

25:32

When things are clogged up. What

25:34

can you do? Barrett asks disbelievingly.

25:37

I can clear clogs, Doherty shouts

25:39

defiantly. I can clear clogs in the

25:42

u-bend under the sink. Barrett, how'd

25:44

you do that then? Doherty. Well,

25:47

you get down there with a bucket, you take it

25:49

apart so all the shit goes in the bucket and

25:51

then you're alright for a bit. Barrett. Remember

25:53

when you pissed at the sink at that party in Halston

25:55

and it was full of washing up. Then

25:57

somebody nicked my guitar, that Gibson. Ah,

26:00

happy days. Maybe.

26:06

We're going to take a short break now. We'll be

26:08

right back with the second half of this article in

26:11

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27:13

back to weekend. Now

27:16

back to Pete Doherty and Karl Barrett.

27:26

There was nothing safe about the Libertines. They

27:29

were raw, primal, and unpredictable. The

27:32

band were a four piece, Barrett

27:34

and Doherty, accompanied by John Hassell

27:36

on bass and Gary Powell on

27:38

drums, as they are today. Both

27:40

Doherty and Barrett were front men, playing guitar

27:43

and singing. Barrett, Rockier, Doherty,

27:45

more soulful, from the same mic like

27:47

a punk Lennon and McCartney. But

27:50

there the comparison ends. The

27:52

Beatles enjoyed global success, evolved,

27:55

and left an astonishing back catalogue.

27:58

The Libertines, they fought. fought,

28:00

stagnated and imploded. They

28:03

had one chart-topping album, the self-titled Second, and

28:05

the four top 20 singles between 2003 and

28:07

2004. Their best songs, Time

28:12

for Heroes, What a Waster, had

28:14

the stern and drang intensity of

28:17

a young girder. Self-destruction went hand-in-hand

28:19

with hedonism. Meanwhile, their

28:21

biggest hits, Can't Stand Me Now and

28:23

What Became of the Likely Lads, documented

28:26

a relationship that had already fallen

28:28

apart. A success story already

28:30

in the past tense. The

28:33

Libertines were done and dusted by 2004, yet there was

28:35

something special

28:37

about them. Their blakey envision

28:40

of an England rich in culture

28:42

without being jingoistic, their

28:44

desire to break down barriers between fans

28:46

and band playing gigs in basement

28:48

suites, and a life-affirming

28:51

raucousness alongside their reckless nihilism.

28:54

They provided endless front-page news for

28:56

the tabloids, usually courtesy

28:58

of Doherty. Whether it was

29:00

about his tumultuous relationship with supermodel

29:02

Kate Moss, his drug habit or

29:04

bizarre behavior on stage, he

29:07

ran away from a gig mid-song in 2004. After

29:11

Doherty was temporarily thrown out of the

29:13

band in 2003, the headlines

29:16

came thicker and faster. He

29:18

was jailed that year for breaking

29:20

into Barrett's flat and stealing items

29:22

including an antique guitar, a laptop,

29:24

a video recorder, a CD player

29:26

and books. In 2006 he was caught

29:30

on CCTV running past 30-year-old

29:32

actor Mark Blanco as he

29:34

lay dying on the pavement.

29:37

It is still unknown whether Blanco jumped or

29:39

was pushed off a balcony at the flat

29:41

where they were partying and had been involved

29:43

in a confrontation. In

29:46

2011 the Crown Prosecution Service said

29:48

there was insufficient evidence to charge

29:50

anybody over the death. In

29:53

the same year Doherty was jailed

29:55

for six months after pleading guilty

29:57

to possession of cocaine. Soon

30:00

after we last met in 2019, he turned his life around. At

30:05

the time, he was having a break from Katya. They

30:08

got back together and he did the one thing

30:10

he could to prove he loved her. He

30:12

gave up drugs and started to

30:14

take opiate blocker injections, which prevent

30:17

opioids producing rewarding effects such as

30:19

euphoria. In 2006, he

30:22

had an opiate blocker implant, but he

30:24

dug it out with a combination of hands and

30:26

knife. Has it

30:28

been transformative? Yes. With

30:30

all the will in the world, I don't think I'm ready to

30:32

lose it. People around me definitely

30:34

prefer me to have it. Good lad,

30:37

Barrett says, patting him on the knee

30:39

approvingly. Keep that up. How

30:42

does Barrett think Doherty has changed over the

30:44

years? Well, Barrett

30:46

starts. Doherty. Be honest.

30:49

Barrett. I was about to say

30:51

before I was interrupted. He's grown stronger in so

30:53

many ways. He can let himself be

30:55

loved in ways he couldn't before, if

30:57

you want to go to the kernel of it. And

30:59

as a friend, it's been easier on me, which is

31:01

a fucking bonus because it means I get to lower

31:03

my defenses. It's not just a big

31:05

happy, happy loving. It's still hard

31:07

and prickly and spiky, and there's a darkness

31:09

there to navigate. The

31:12

darkness is by no means confined to

31:14

Doherty. When I met

31:16

Barrett, I remember thinking he seemed incredibly

31:18

troubled. And by then, he was

31:21

in a far better place than he had been. I

31:23

still struggle now, Barrett says. Yes,

31:26

I've had my moments. I've

31:28

still got the scars. Doherty. It's

31:31

a strange crossing point, because you've got

31:33

this one fella who is from a disciplined

31:35

and ordinary background who had this romantic vision.

31:38

He's talking about himself. And

31:40

you had someone from a really chaotic

31:42

background who was maybe longing for normality.

31:45

I was going the other way, and we met right

31:47

there. We tried to hold on to

31:49

each other in the storm. What

31:52

does Doherty think has changed most about Barrett?

31:56

On a purely basic level, he's

31:58

got bricks and water around him. He's got

32:00

home. Is a huge thing. I

32:03

quite enjoyed the vagrancy and so for surf

32:05

and score in. A. Don't think,

32:07

how did. Bar.

32:09

It says his dream was always to feel

32:12

normal on his own terms. To

32:14

for like I can make it into society. I

32:16

can exist on this planet and I don't have

32:18

to just throw myself into the canal. Paris

32:21

as becoming a father, his two children

32:23

aged nine and thirteen with his pollinate

32:25

eighty langley. Finally gave him a sense

32:27

of belonging. The. Something about

32:29

having kids. He can't switch off

32:31

and let the depression overcome you. This.

32:34

No longer an option. Then. It makes

32:36

you realize that if that's not an option now. What?

32:38

Was about in the first place. And.

32:40

On a. Little bit paranoid. For.

32:44

A long time though. it's he was homeless, relying

32:46

on the goodwill of friends and lovers for a

32:48

roof over his head. In

32:50

Twenty seventeen Bar invested in a

32:52

seaside hotel in Margate. partly so

32:55

dirty, had somewhere to live, He.

32:57

Called it the Albion Rooms after the

32:59

first flat they lived in together had

33:01

it refurbished and go a studio in

33:03

the site. This. Is where the

33:05

new album was recorded. Could.

33:08

This record finally make them wealthy.

33:11

Yes, in theory. Though.

33:13

It he says. But. For me,

33:15

there were taxpayers for fifteen years ago.

33:18

Was every time I think I've made a

33:20

pair of pants is given immediately. In.

33:24

He's I've always treated to say

33:26

it's complicated though. Now. Living

33:28

in France and my child support. Is. Like

33:30

sissy first with the money thing. I've.

33:33

Always said one day we'll make a record that was so

33:35

so many. Be one of the worry about money. But.

33:37

He hasn't happened yet. Barrett.

33:40

The thing is, and as you want your money,

33:43

If you can live in a house and not have to do jobs

33:45

you don't like. That. As good as any

33:47

to be, right? The.

33:49

Bones publicists Tony puts into say we're running

33:51

out of time. Turn. His work with

33:53

Bar and Dirty since way back. I.

33:56

Asked if there's anything he'd like to ask. He.

33:58

Has a think. It's. anything you

34:00

would have done differently." DoT

34:03

exhales loudly. Wow

34:05

this is hypothetical. Like

34:08

science fiction. I wouldn't

34:10

have run down Brixton High Street halfway through Can't Stand

34:12

Me Now. I love playing that

34:14

song but I was so mangled and my

34:16

head was so far up in the rafters

34:18

I couldn't hold it. Sometimes

34:20

when I was lashing out I thought it

34:23

was a start of some movement like loads

34:25

of people were gonna join in and smash

34:27

everything together and it was gonna mean something

34:29

and in the end it's just me and

34:32

maybe a couple of others hurt themselves end

34:34

up in prison or dead

34:36

I say. Yeah

34:39

too many dead. I

34:42

asked DoT if he regrets running away from the

34:44

scene of Blanco's death in 2006. Oh

34:48

mate! he replies as if he's

34:50

just been hit. What are you

34:52

asking about that for? He

34:55

says it's unfair because it's come so late in

34:57

the day. If he'd started on that, Barrett

34:59

finishes the sentences for him, you would

35:01

have left the room. No no no no

35:03

no no no No DoT he says. He

35:05

comes to a stop and says he doesn't want

35:08

to sound flippant about such a serious matter. He

35:11

knows he will always be dogged

35:13

by the CCTV footage of himself,

35:15

then girlfriend Kate Russell, Pavier and

35:17

minder Jonathan Johnvall walking past the

35:19

body on the ground then running

35:21

away. Three weeks

35:24

after Blanco's death, Johnvall walked into

35:26

Bethnal Green police station and confessed

35:28

to his murder. Hours

35:30

later he retracted his statement citing

35:32

stress as the reason for making

35:34

a false confession. Of

35:36

course I wish I hadn't run away. Of course

35:38

I wish I hadn't. DoT he says. I

35:41

should have just stood there and waited for the police

35:43

and just thrown everything down the drain. He

35:46

means his drugs. Of course I

35:48

mean yeah basic stuff isn't

35:50

it. Legging it down the street barefoot.

35:53

He's still haunted by the night. We

35:57

return to the new album. Sure. It's

36:00

taken a long time, but it really does

36:02

sound like a band that has finally matured. Do

36:05

they have a renewed trust in each other? I

36:08

never trusted him in the first place, Barrett says.

36:10

These questions, Doherty protests.

36:13

These are deep and personal questions. We

36:16

probably don't know the answers to them ourselves and don't want

36:18

to know. We made a good go of

36:20

our music, which we both believe in and I think we

36:22

both trust each other with. We didn't

36:24

go into the studio with these songs written. We

36:26

spent a lot of time sat there with a

36:28

typewriter hammering these songs out so we believe in

36:30

the album and trust the album. Maybe

36:33

in 10 years we'll go into a serious group

36:35

therapy session and get these things hammered out,

36:37

but there's no time for that now. We've

36:40

got to spend 9 days on a tour bus with each other.

36:43

This is a type of in-depth analysis of

36:45

friendship that might make things uncomfortable and I

36:47

don't want to make Carl uncomfortable. I

36:49

want him to be happy and comfortable that he's doing

36:51

this. The more we delve into these

36:53

things the more I'm likely to say something stupid to

36:55

trust to get a cheap joke and it won't be

36:57

a cheap joke to Carl that will be something hurtful

36:59

so I don't want to do this. There

37:02

is a painful sincerity to Doherty's words. Barrett

37:07

once said he'd never find another songwriting

37:09

partner like Doherty. Would

37:11

he write? I think it'd still be true

37:13

now. He says. Umm…

37:16

Doherty says. Another loud exhalation.

37:21

You want the honest answer? Yes

37:23

please. Maybe I'm not thinking it

37:25

when I write the song, but the first thing I

37:27

think afterwards is I wonder what Carl will think of

37:29

that, whoever I'm writing the song with. The

37:32

honest answer is… Everything

37:35

I write is for Carl. That

37:40

was… Am I surprised Pete

37:42

Doherty is still alive? No, he's

37:45

too smart to die. The Libertines on

37:47

Fudes? Inship and their Talk to Reunion

37:49

by Simon Hadfestone. Red

37:51

on Sam Swainsbury. If

37:54

you've been affected by any of the issues raised in

37:57

this case, we've included details of helplines

37:59

you can contact. on the episode

38:01

page at theguardian.com. Finally,

38:04

habituation. The diminishing

38:06

returns of something stimulating is a

38:08

key component of human nature and

38:10

knowing how to manipulate it to

38:13

our advantage can produce some powerful

38:15

effect. According to Harvard professor Cass

38:17

Sunstein, I'm cognitive neuroscientist

38:19

Tali Sharat, read by

38:21

Kylee Spare. Imagine

38:26

you're out for dinner at your favorite restaurant

38:29

and the way to seat you at the best table.

38:32

It's nice and quiet, so you can have a

38:34

pleasant conversation with your partner. The

38:36

table is also right next to a window with

38:38

great views. You

38:40

drink your wine and enjoy some delicious

38:43

food. The dinner lasts a couple

38:45

of hours. Do you think

38:47

you'd enjoy the evening more if you sat at

38:49

the nice table the whole time or

38:51

if you were occasionally sent to the back of

38:53

the restaurant where it was crowded and noisy? Well,

38:57

that's a stupid question, you're probably thinking. Who

38:59

would want to go somewhere rowdy if they had

39:01

a lovely spot exactly where they were? That's

39:05

certainly what intuition suggests, but

39:07

it's wrong. Studies show

39:09

that people enjoy good things in life,

39:12

like listening to music or getting a

39:14

relaxing massage, more if they

39:16

break them up into smaller pieces. A

39:19

nice table is pleasant, but the joy

39:22

experienced during the first hour fades over

39:24

time. The reason? Herbituation.

39:28

That's our brain's tendency to respond less

39:30

and less to things that are constant

39:32

that don't change. As

39:34

we get used to the pleasant aspects

39:36

of our life, both big, a loving

39:38

spouse, a comfortable home, a good job,

39:41

and small, a great view, a tasty

39:43

dish, we notice and appreciate

39:45

them less. Unless, that

39:47

is, you break up the experience. Moving

39:50

to the more cramped bit of the restaurant for a

39:52

while, perhaps to visit the

39:54

bathroom, will trigger dishabituation, making

39:57

the luxury of your window seat more salient.

40:01

For another example, consider

40:03

vacations. A few years ago,

40:05

one of us, Pally, went on a work

40:07

trip to a sunny resort in the Dominican

40:09

Republic. Her mission was to find

40:11

out what made holidaymakers happy and why.

40:14

She interviewed people about their experiences and

40:16

asked them to fill out surveys. When

40:19

the data was in, she noticed one

40:21

word that appeared again and again. Vacationers

40:25

spoke of the joy of seeing the

40:27

ocean for the first time. The

40:29

first swim in the pool, the

40:32

first sip of a holiday cocktail.

40:34

Firsts seemed hugely important.

40:37

You cannot habituate to a first. As

40:41

firsts usually happen earlier in a vacation, Pally

40:43

wondered if people had a better time at

40:45

the start of their trips. Luckily,

40:47

the large travel company with which she

40:50

was working had asked customers from around

40:52

the world to rate their feelings throughout

40:54

their holidays. Crunching those numbers

40:56

revealed that joy peaked 43 hours in.

40:58

At the end of day

41:01

two, after people had got their bearings

41:03

was when they were happiest. Thereafter,

41:05

it was all downhill. Which

41:08

is not to say that they found themselves miserable

41:10

by the end. Even when

41:12

they returned home, many still benefited from

41:15

a warm holiday afterglow. Still,

41:17

less than a week passed by before

41:19

they quickly adjusted to home life. Work,

41:22

school runs, bills. Within seven

41:24

days, it was difficult to detect any effect

41:26

of the time away on their mood.

41:29

This evidence suggests that you might benefit

41:32

most from several small trips spread throughout

41:34

the year rather than one long escape.

41:37

That way, you will maximise firsts

41:39

and afterglows. Not to mention

41:41

the pleasure of anticipation, which you will experience

41:43

more often. This

41:45

applies much more generally than holidays, of

41:48

course. For example, people who

41:50

were given massages with breaks in between

41:52

were found to have enjoyed it more

41:54

than those who weren't interrupted. Anything

41:57

that is wonderful will become at least a bit

41:59

of a deal. bit less wonderful over time.

42:02

Why not take a break and enjoy it all

42:04

over again? What

42:06

about unpleasant experiences? Should

42:09

you divide those up too? Imagine

42:11

you had to clean a toilet. Would you

42:13

rather do it in one go or take little

42:15

breaks every ten minutes? Or

42:17

suppose that your upstairs neighbour, Marvin,

42:19

is practicing the drums, and

42:21

that you can hear the annoying noise loud and

42:23

clear. Should you make Marvin a cup

42:25

of coffee so that you both get a break from

42:28

the bang bang bang of his drumsticks? Most

42:31

people want to endure the unpleasantness

42:33

in chunks. When researchers asked people

42:35

whether they would like a break from smelling

42:38

a nasty odour, or just have the whole

42:40

thing over and done within one go, 90

42:43

people said, breaks please. The

42:46

vast majority, 82 out of 119, also

42:49

said they wanted a break from an irritating

42:52

noise. They did so because they

42:54

believed the experience would be less upsetting with

42:56

a breather. It

42:58

seems like a reasonable prediction, but

43:00

it isn't correct. When people were

43:02

actually exposed to the noise, those who

43:05

took time out suffered more overall. The

43:07

break interrupted their natural habituation

43:09

to the unwelcome stimulus. The

43:12

lesson? If you need to complete

43:14

an unpleasant task, it would probably be wise

43:16

not to chop it up. Once you

43:18

come back, the smell will be worse,

43:21

the noise louder, and the experience grimmer

43:23

overall. There's some

43:25

folk wisdom embodied here, perhaps. Exortations

43:28

to get it over and done

43:30

with, or rip off the

43:32

band-aid, are familiar. And in Absence

43:35

Makes the Heart Grow Fonder, we

43:37

have perhaps some age-old advice that

43:39

recognises the influence of habituation in

43:41

relationships. But although they're

43:43

there in our language, it seems we

43:46

have a hard time overcoming our intuitions

43:48

to the contrary. The results

43:50

of psychological experiments are clear, however,

43:52

and being mindful of habituation's powerful

43:54

effect could help us all experience

43:56

a bit less pain and a

43:58

little more pain. pleasure. That

44:04

was The Big Idea. This simple behavioral

44:06

trick can help you get more out

44:08

of life by Cass Sunstein and Tally

44:10

Sharrett. Read by Carlis

44:12

Pear. That's

44:16

all from us. This has been

44:18

Weekend, a Guardian podcast. If you're

44:20

enjoying it, please make sure to

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like, subscribe to and rate the

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podcast. Maybe even leave us a

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nice review or let us know what you want to

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hear more of. Just search

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for Weekend wherever you get your podcasts. This

44:34

week's articles are read by Carlis Pear

44:36

and Sam Swainsbury and presented

44:38

by me Savannah Iode-Grieves. This

44:41

episode was produced by Rachel Porter. The

44:43

executive producer is Ellie Burey. Join

44:46

us again next Saturday. Thanks

44:48

for listening. This is

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