0:00

True for me. Like I had, I had success.

0:02

Um, I thought I just wanted to make it. I thought I just wanted the money.

0:05

I thought I just wanted to, you know, be

0:05

relevant and, um, and create something

0:11

that got traction in the world.

0:13

But I realize that if I, if I

0:13

do that and have success and

0:18

I'm not aligned, I'm so unhappy.

0:21

So if it's all about impact, right?

0:23

Is that what you're saying? It's about aligning the money,

0:23

the impacts, and like how

0:29

I'm using my voice. Hey friends. Welcome to Voice and Impact,

0:30

an honest podcast about the

0:34

journey of entrepreneurship. We're not here to tell

0:36

you how to live your

0:37

life. We're here to have real

0:39

conversations about real things.

0:42

My name

0:43

is Adam and

0:44

I'm so grateful you're here with us. So I'd like to welcome Will Preble.

0:48

That's how I say your last name, right?

0:50

Preble.

0:50

Preble, yeah. Pebble with the p. Treble. With a P.

0:53

Are you a musician? Oh, we, I.

0:55

What kind of You've tried, you've dabbled with me. If I recall correctly.

0:58

I've, I've dabbled. I used to, I used to do choir.

1:00

I used to, I was, I was in a

1:00

traveling choir in high school

1:05

traveling, so, and I played piano. Till age 14.

1:08

So I, I have some musical background.

1:10

I wouldn't consider myself a musician

1:10

necessarily, but I, I think everyone,

1:14

you know, has some kind of creative

1:17

side to that, so I totally agree. Yeah. Um, well I've been trying to get a

1:18

conversation on the calendar with

1:22

you for probably nine months now.

1:25

Um, and, and, and a, and

1:25

a very selfish level.

1:28

It seems like the only way I could get you

1:28

on the calendar is if I invited you to the

1:32

podcast, but I'm just teasing everybody. Um, I'm glad you're here.

1:35

You have been up to a lot, right?

1:38

You've built a media agency. It sounds like you're kind of

1:39

transitioning out of that and now you're

1:42

building what you're calling Ascension. Is that right?

1:45

As ascend as ascendance? Yeah.

1:47

Okay, cool. Well, well just give us a little

1:47

bit about, uh, where you've been

1:51

and where, where you are now. Like I just want an update, like

1:53

what's going on in your world

1:56

For sure. Yeah. So I've spent the last three, three

1:57

and a half years, um, kind of at

2:01

the intersection of, of media.

2:04

Um, entertainment and like emerging tech.

2:08

Um, so I, I've been running a media

2:08

agency, which I still own, still, still

2:13

operates, um, but I'm spending probably

2:13

60, 70% of my time right now kind of

2:20

developing some new projects, which

2:20

I'll get into here in a little bit.

2:24

But, um, my, my curiosity has, has

2:24

really always been, you know, um, with

2:32

the intersection of media and tech.

2:34

So in, in 2018, I was doing machine

2:34

learning in the corporate world, and,

2:39

and I really, I just kind of saw what

2:39

was going on with social media and,

2:42

and having a technical understanding of

2:42

like the algorithms and stuff behind it.

2:46

I was like, There's, we gotta make

2:46

something better at some point.

2:50

I don't know what that's gonna be. Um, but I, I felt some sense of calling

2:51

or responsibility to, as someone

2:57

with a, with a tech background, get

2:57

into the media space and just, you

3:01

know, see where that took me and

3:01

follow, follow my curiosity there.

3:04

So I, I started a media company, um,

3:04

worked with brands like the Armory

3:09

Live Nation on the entertainment side.

3:12

Done, um, did one of the largest

3:12

voter turnout campaigns in the

3:16

state of Minnesota in 2020 with

3:16

the Minneapolis Foundation.

3:19

I've worked with United Properties,

3:19

some of the Poll A companies, um,

3:23

so, you know, a little bit of mix of,

3:23

of corporate and, um, entertainment.

3:28

Some artists, artists influencer

3:28

working there too as well.

3:31

Um, but I really have seen over the

3:31

past, I, I guess it's been like 18

3:38

months or so, um, What's been happening

3:38

with Web three and I, for those of

3:45

you who don't know what Web three is,

3:45

I'll just quickly give a definition.

3:50

So basically it's the next iteration

3:50

of the internet and it's being

3:53

built around blockchain technology.

3:56

Um, and a lot of, a lot of the

3:56

artists that I work with, and a lot

3:59

of the brands that I've been working

3:59

with have been either looking at how

4:04

they're gonna get involved in Web

4:04

three or actively like launching.

4:09

Some of the artists I've worked

4:09

with have launched N F T collections

4:12

and, um, started to, you know,

4:12

figure out how to monetize and

4:15

market their brand in Web three. And

4:17

so, yeah. Well before, because I know we're

4:17

gonna dive into the nitty gritty

4:19

of this, like I know we are. Um, but before, before we do blockchain,

4:21

like I feel like there's even

4:25

still a huge community who doesn't

4:25

even know what blockchain is, and

4:29

this is still all very, very new.

4:31

What, what's blockchain

4:31

and, and why does it matter?

4:34

Yeah, so blockchain is

4:34

essentially like a database.

4:37

It's, it's a, it's essentially a

4:37

distributed database where, um, Your

4:45

transactions, your, uh, base, all

4:45

your, your app activity, your, whether

4:51

you're using currency, whether you're

4:51

using, um, you know, like a play

4:55

to earn game on Ethereum or you're,

4:55

you're buying and selling things, um,

5:00

you're exchanging identity information,

5:00

you know, whatever you're doing on.

5:05

A blockchain base is, uh, in theory,

5:05

it's not always in practice, but

5:10

in theory it's, it's decentralized.

5:13

So all of the users of the network

5:13

are owners of the network, and

5:17

you become an owner of the network

5:17

through holding its tokens, right?

5:21

And so instead of like Google or

5:21

Facebook owning all these centralized

5:26

servers where they control your

5:26

data, um, they control commerce.

5:31

They control everything that's

5:31

happening on their network.

5:34

Um, effectively, blockchain gives us

5:34

a way to decentralize the ownership or

5:39

return it to the commons, um, of digital

5:42

space. Why, why, from your perspective,

5:43

my, my mic stand just broke,

5:46

um, but we're not stopping here. Why, from your perspective is that

5:50

revolutionary? I think it, it's revolutionary because

5:51

we're, we're living in a time where

5:55

people are spending more resources.

5:59

attention and energy on the dis

5:59

digital world and the physical world.

6:03

And so, like, if you think

6:03

about the physical world, right?

6:06

We have property rights, we have,

6:06

you know, governance, we have like

6:09

ways that we do things, um, that

6:09

people have just generally agreed

6:14

upon for hundreds of years, right?

6:17

And, um, with the digital world, that

6:17

hasn't necessarily been the case.

6:22

We've kind of gotten into this paradigm

6:22

in, in a very short amount of time,

6:26

really, you know, two decades or so

6:26

where a very small group of people or

6:31

small set of companies controls the

6:31

majority of the digital world, right?

6:35

And they make the majority of the

6:35

revenue and they control the data.

6:38

They control your identity. Um, and, and they control the

6:40

flows of information, right?

6:44

And, and you don't as a user necessarily

6:44

have any vested interest or ownership in

6:49

it other than like, you, you get to use

6:49

it, you get to have an account, et cetera.

6:53

Um, and obviously you can buy stock

6:53

in a public company, so, but, With

6:59

blockchain, we can, for example, have a,

6:59

if, if Instagram or Twitter, for example,

7:05

Twitter would be the best example,

7:05

say Twitter decided to decentralized.

7:10

You could take that protocol of, of

7:10

Twitter, the social network, and you

7:14

could open source it, uh, allow anyone to

7:14

contribute to it and allow the community

7:19

who's, who's the users to actually,

7:19

um, to actually own it and vote on the

7:25

future of the Twitter as a protocol.

7:28

Um, so if, if the community, if the

7:28

users of Twitter say like, You know,

7:32

we, we have an issue with, um, you

7:32

know, an issue with bots, an issue

7:37

with trolls and misinformation. Let's do something about it.

7:40

Then you, as a user could then

7:40

go take your, your tokens or your

7:44

vest at stake in that network

7:44

because you're a user and maybe you

7:48

earn them, maybe you bought them. Um, and, and you could maybe have more

7:50

of a say in, in where that public good

7:55

or that public service goes instead

7:55

of that just being a private network

8:00

that some company owns, and you

8:00

don't really have any control over w

8:03

But why, why is that important to you? Like, why, why is transitioning the

8:05

model of ownership to an inclusive model

8:11

where you're involving the community,

8:11

you're listening to the community,

8:15

and you're forming the technology

8:15

around what the community wants.

8:18

Why is that important to you and why

8:20

is it relevant? I think it's, it's important

8:21

because when we, when we developed

8:26

web two, we, we didn't really.

8:29

Develop new forms of, of governance.

8:31

We just, we developed new technology,

8:31

but the way that we used the technology

8:37

was basically governed by old legal

8:37

structures and, and old, uh, financial

8:42

structures that had weren't really

8:42

developed in the age of, of the type of

8:47

digital technology that we have today. And so, um, what that created was a

8:49

scenario where, um, there was just a lot

8:55

of misalignment of incentive structure. So like, Instagram, for example,

8:57

is incentivized to take as much of

9:02

my attention as possible so that

9:02

they can sell it to advertisers.

9:06

I'm not saying they're sitting behind

9:06

their computers, you know, twiddling their

9:09

fingers being like, how can I get more

9:09

of his, his attention and control him?

9:14

Um, but that is just, that's fundamentally

9:14

how the app makes money, right?

9:18

And it's how the algorithm is programmed

9:18

and it's how the algorithm is programmed.

9:21

And so we, when we develop these

9:21

algorithms that have such a powerful,

9:27

I mean people filter their lives

9:27

through Instagram, it, it is

9:31

fundamentally changed human psychology.

9:33

Um, for better or for worse. I'm not saying that's completely a

9:34

bad thing, um, but it is something

9:38

we should be conscious of. And now that we are conscious of

9:40

that, I would hope that the next set

9:46

of algorithms that changes the way

9:46

we interact with the world, whether

9:50

that's with our ar HUDs, that, you

9:50

know, give us heads up for information

9:54

as we're walking down the street to,

9:54

you know, the next version of the

9:58

social media platforms that we, we use.

10:01

Um, I would hope that the algorithms

10:01

that we develop are designed to have

10:06

better incentive structures to unlock

10:06

human potential instead of just

10:10

monetizing it and controlling it. Yeah.

10:13

Well, I

10:13

mean, when, when I look at

10:13

the systems of the world, um, right,

10:17

like, like governmental systems,

10:17

financial systems, um, uh, educational

10:24

systems, food systems, like.

10:27

When it comes to systems and how

10:27

human beings are organized, there's

10:30

room, we're kind of like, all of these

10:30

systems are kind of like, well wait.

10:35

What we're doing isn't working. There's room for new ideas and innovation.

10:39

So what is it about the technology space

10:39

specifically that garnishes your attention

10:46

to want to innovate and, and, and,

10:49

uh, empower? Yeah, because I think technology

10:50

gives us the highest leverage

10:54

opportunity to actually change things. Like if you look at, again, going back

10:56

to the example of social media, 12 years

11:01

ago, nobody knew what Instagram is. Today, 95% of, at least the people that

11:03

I know in, in America and other first

11:10

world countries around the world are,

11:10

are using it right on a daily basis.

11:14

And so whether you like it or

11:14

not, That piece of technology has

11:19

proliferated across the world and

11:19

changed the way that we work, change

11:24

the way that we live, change the

11:24

way that we consume information.

11:27

Um, so if we want to look at

11:27

the world today and say, how do

11:33

I, how do I solve some of these

11:33

problems that we're, we're seeing?

11:36

Right. You know, 2020 was a, I think a very

11:36

revealing time both internally and

11:42

externally for a lot of us, especially

11:42

in America, just seeing, you know, some

11:46

of the social problems and in injustices

11:46

and, and broken healthcare systems

11:51

and, um, things that, you know, now

11:51

a lot of people are aware of, right.

11:56

And if we want to say like, how

11:56

are, how am I gonna contribute to

12:00

solving some of those problems? I think technology is probably

12:01

our, our best shot, um, as a lever

12:07

to solve the problems, not as the

12:07

end solution in and of itself.

12:11

So it's about accessibility. It's about accessibility, and

12:12

it's about like, if we want to.

12:15

, if we want to build a more

12:15

abundant system, um, I think

12:19

we build it with technology. We don't, we don't go into the

12:21

old system and say, I'm gonna fix

12:25

every single problem and tweak

12:25

every lever until it's perfect.

12:28

I think we just build a fundamentally

12:28

better system and eventually the

12:32

old system just transitions, becomes

12:34

obsolete. Right? That's the quote I think. Right?

12:36

Who, who is that?

12:37

Buckmaster Fuller. He has a lot of good ones.

12:40

He probably, I

12:40

don't remember who it is, but

12:40

the, the basic premise is, is, is

12:43

to, to, to build a new system so

12:43

that the old system becomes obsolete.

12:47

But when, when I look at Web 2.0,

12:47

like let's stay in this social media

12:52

space, there's a light, a lot of

12:52

psychological, intentionally crafted,

12:59

psychological, malice warfare.

13:03

Uh, those are kind of complicated and,

13:03

and derogatory words, but there's, there's

13:07

a lot of people who are trying to change

13:07

fundamental psychology and behavior.

13:15

To swing in a certain direction,

13:15

whether it's to vote a certain way,

13:18

whether it's to believe something

13:18

detrimental about somebody else,

13:22

whether it's to, uh, to buy something.

13:25

And so, so for me, when I think of

13:25

Web 2.0, like the metaphor that comes

13:30

to mind is like, you know, if we were

13:30

to backtrack a thousand years and to

13:35

look at humanity, you know, there were

13:35

empires and there were kingdoms, and you

13:40

knew when you were in a kingdom because

13:40

there were walls around the city to

13:45

kind of like protect it from intrusion.

13:47

But only now in the current world,

13:47

I think there are kingdoms and, and

13:51

empires, but the walls are invisible now.

13:54

And so that's kind of like how

13:54

I view the social media space.

13:57

But if I, again, back a thousand years,

13:57

if I was on a horse riding past a kingdom

14:06

that was on fire, you bet your ass.

14:09

I would be going inside that kingdom

14:09

and I would be trying to help.

14:13

evacuate and save the people

14:13

that I can within the kingdom.

14:17

And so when I look at the Web 2.0, I

14:17

think it's safe to say that a lot of

14:23

people in my network, like for example,

14:23

my my mother-in-law just deleted all

14:27

the social media apps from her phone. Today.

14:29

This is happening, this is a trend. People are realizing that

14:31

it's toxic on their health.

14:34

It's toxic on the way that

14:34

they perceive themselves and

14:37

people are, are deleting them.

14:39

And there's a huge entrepreneurial

14:39

wave of people who are like, yeah,

14:44

this, the platforms are toxic. Like, I'm not, I'm just not gonna

14:46

post any ideas on the platforms.

14:49

I'm not going to to to, to

14:49

engage in them any, in any way.

14:53

And a lot of people use the phrase like,

14:53

cuz because participation is perpetuation.

14:58

But for me that feels so backwards.

15:02

Like for me, the algorithm

15:02

responds to human behavior.

15:07

Like that is fundamentally how

15:07

the algorithm is programmed.

15:11

And so is, is it about the human behavior?

15:13

Is it about the algorithm? Is it about the type of

15:15

content that's available?

15:17

Um, but from my perspective, it's

15:17

even more relevant for me to share

15:22

my ideas in a kingdom that's on

15:22

fire than a kingdom that is not.

15:28

Does this make sense? I'm curious if how this lands for

15:29

you and what, what your thoughts are.

15:32

Well, I couple

15:32

things to go off of there.

15:35

I would say that, so you said the

15:35

algorithm responds to human behavior

15:39

and, and that's absolutely true. It's optimizing itself

15:40

around your behavior.

15:43

Right? Um, that's why I think the web 3.0 or

15:43

web 2.5, maybe, let's call it as, as

15:49

we're kind of starting to integrate

15:49

blockchain technology and integrate,

15:53

integrate like token incentives

15:53

into these applications, right.

15:58

Um, having. Tokenized application where your users

16:00

say, I'm a user of the app, I hold the

16:05

token, and so if the app grows, I benefit.

16:08

Right. Um, that in and of itself is a

16:09

shift in incentive structures

16:13

where at least the user is aligned

16:13

with the success of the app.

16:19

Right. Um, because right now if your application,

16:20

your Instagram, let's just use that as as

16:26

the example again, Instagram is developing

16:26

algorithms more and more sophisti

16:33

sophisticated algorithms to deliver me

16:33

content and keep my attention on the app.

16:38

Um, and they're. app is incentivized to monetize my

16:40

attention, then the algorithm is

16:45

just gonna take my behavior and keep

16:45

making itself more and more addictive.

16:48

Right? It's not necessarily incentivized

16:49

to give me good information.

16:53

It's not necessarily incentivized to

16:53

help me connect with the right people for

16:57

my business or connect with, you know,

16:57

information sources or collaborators,

17:02

um, that could unlock my potential.

17:05

It just wants to make more

17:05

money off my attention, right?

17:08

Um, and so we have to do something about

17:08

that incentive structure if we want the

17:12

algorithm to, and you know, as we get

17:12

into more and more sophisticated ai,

17:18

if we want AI to actually be beneficial

17:18

to us as humans, um, we have to have an

17:23

incentive structure that's underlying

17:23

this application or, or this company,

17:29

um, where that algorithm is incentivized

17:29

to unlock my potential in some way.

17:36

Um, for example, like if, if I. Have a business and I'm using Instagram,

17:39

and I'm able to do more business and

17:44

get my message out to more people. Um, you know, maybe there's some kind

17:46

of incentive structure where the, the

17:50

application gets compensated for that. Or there's, you know, tokens

17:52

that get dispersed, um, to the

17:55

nodes that help me do that. Right. Um, again, this is,

17:57

we're speculating, right?

18:01

There's a lot of possibilities. Um, but I think we need to think

18:03

about this and figure out a better

18:06

way to incentivize these algorithms

18:06

and applications to help me as a human

18:11

and not just again, like, take my time

18:11

and attention and sell it, because

18:15

that's just not gonna scale well as

18:15

we get into more and more immersive

18:19

technology. Yeah. But from, from your perspective, web

18:20

three, like how long, and this is

18:26

speculation, but from your perspective,

18:26

how long until Web three is like.

18:31

Mainstream, like it outweighs web

18:31

two in terms of user attention.

18:35

Yeah. I think the biggest problem with Web

18:36

three as we're calling it today, is that,

18:42

um, web three right now, there's, I saw

18:42

a meme on social media the other day.

18:48

There's more VCs in Web

18:48

three right now than users.

18:50

Right. Um, the problem, that's how

18:51

you share that actually.

18:53

Yeah. The, the problem with web three

18:54

right now is that it's a lot of

18:56

smart people who are like really

18:56

excited about their technology.

19:01

Um, they're not building a ton of

19:01

bridges for like, people who don't

19:06

really care about understanding

19:06

blockchain architecture to like get

19:10

onto web three and start using it. Um, How fast Web three scales will,

19:12

depends on how quickly we can ex abstract

19:20

away the difficulty of using web three. Because like back to

19:22

the accessibility piece.

19:25

Accessibility because, um, it could

19:25

be five years, it could be 15 years.

19:30

I, I would be optimistic that by

19:30

2030, um, I would say a lot of the

19:37

information layer of the internet will

19:37

be decentralized, um, to an extent at

19:43

least running on blockchain technology. Um, , I don't know how

19:45

decentralized it, it will be.

19:51

Um, that is, that is really gonna

19:51

depend on, you know, the decisions that

19:56

those of us who are building in web

19:56

three today, uh, you know, make what

20:01

we do over the next two, three years. I think we'll set the tone.

20:05

Yeah.

20:05

Well, the reason, the reason I

20:05

ask is because, you know, the, the type

20:08

of people that I collaborate, and I

20:08

presume this is true of, of you as well.

20:14

They're, they're the type of people who are really trying to make a difference, right?

20:17

Like they're really trying to contribute,

20:17

they're really trying to, the language

20:20

you are, that you are really resonating

20:20

with these days is potential, right?

20:24

Yeah. They're really trying to help unlock

20:24

the potential of the people around

20:28

them and in their community and

20:28

guide them back towards themselves

20:31

and understand themselves with more,

20:31

more depth and clarity, which is

20:34

to the benefit of, of everybody. And you know, there's a

20:36

lot of hype in the web.

20:39

Three space. People are selling art for millions of

20:40

dollars and the Ethereum and the Bitcoin

20:45

and like, there's been hype and hype

20:45

and hype and Gary V is all about it.

20:48

And, and, and for the people who

20:48

have their feet on the ground right

20:54

now trying to make a difference,

20:54

it also sometimes feels, so I.

21:00

Like it feels out of reach. And so from my perspective, web

21:02

three has taught us some things.

21:06

It's taught us to like

21:06

honor people's attention.

21:09

It's taught us that we want

21:09

to put together systems that,

21:14

that everybody has stakes in.

21:16

Mm-hmm. , everybody receives reward and

21:17

engagement and involvement on the

21:22

direction of, of the company and

21:22

the monetary gains of the company.

21:28

And so, like the question I have

21:28

for you is, like, web 2.0 is more

21:34

relevant I would say, on the day-to-day

21:34

basis right now than Web 3.0.

21:37

And I'm the kind of person that

21:37

isn't interested in waiting to make a

21:41

difference, waiting to apply the lessons,

21:41

waiting to create infrastructural change.

21:47

And so from your perspective, what and how

21:47

can we apply to the Web 2.0 infrastructure

21:54

with right now our feet on the ground?

21:57

That are lessons from the Web 3.0 vision?

22:01

Yeah. I think one phrase that comes to mind

22:02

is localization, is decentralization.

22:09

So returning to a model where, again, like

22:09

you said, a lot of these things seem outta

22:16

reach like a lot of these pie in the sky.

22:19

We're gonna change the world,

22:19

realign all the incentive structures,

22:22

make it abundant for everyone,

22:22

you know, that's great in theory.

22:28

Um, but again, like how if I walk

22:28

out the store, what do I do to

22:31

actually, you know, make a difference?

22:34

Right. Um, I think starting with.

22:37

Local communities, and not just

22:37

local, I mean local communities like

22:42

in a physical location or digital

22:42

communities, you know, just digital

22:46

communities of like-minded people that

22:46

come together around a shared purpose.

22:50

I think, um, the, the best way to use

22:50

Web three technology right now as is,

22:55

as a mechanism for organizing, um, web

22:55

Three Tech stacks can organize people

23:04

and have, and have proven to be effective

23:04

at organizing people really quickly when

23:09

applied right and when communicated. Right. For example, there was a group of people

23:11

that, um, wanted to buy a copy of the

23:17

Constitution and they pooled together

23:17

47 million in like two weeks, right?

23:22

Again, that, that's like these, all

23:22

these examples, Right now that are in

23:28

pop culture around buying expensive

23:28

art and, and stuff like that with

23:33

DAOs, um, decentralized autonomous

23:33

organizations is, is what a Dao meant.

23:38

Just for, for context, um, a lot of

23:38

these seem kind of out there, but if

23:43

you apply that same thinking to like a

23:43

social problem, like say you have, you

23:49

know, a group of people that wanted to

23:49

get together around, um, sharing access

23:54

to holistic medicine and, and spreading,

23:54

um, spreading information around like

24:00

acupuncture and, and traditional Chinese

24:00

medicine, let's niche it really down.

24:04

Specifically we're gonna create

24:04

a dow around traditional Chinese

24:08

medicine and acupuncture. We want to get more people certified.

24:10

We want to get more information out there. We want to have content, um, and we

24:11

want to help people be able to wean off

24:16

of like, opiates and pharmaceuticals

24:16

and, and just have a more, um,

24:21

a more holistically, you know,

24:21

abundant life through their health.

24:24

Right. Um, we could, we could

24:25

create a group together.

24:28

If we had a hundred people, you

24:28

know, say around the, around the

24:31

globe who align with that mission,

24:31

um, we could use the Web three

24:36

tech stack to organize that group. We could create a, an organization,

24:38

um, that operates based on the

24:42

principles that we give it. Um, we could, you know, bring in a

24:44

developer to help us structure that.

24:48

We could have a shared

24:48

currency, we could take funding.

24:51

We could sell an N F T collection that has

24:51

some kind of utility in our organization.

24:56

Um, none of that is impossible with Web

24:56

two technology, so I, I don't think it's

25:03

necessarily like we have to, the Web

25:03

three tech stack is like the only savior.

25:10

Um, but it is a really interesting way to.

25:12

Shift how we're thinking about organizing

25:12

groups and developing organizations,

25:17

um, that have more agility, you

25:17

know, across borders and, and across,

25:21

um, across disciplines than maybe a

25:21

traditional like legal setup would.

25:26

Totally.

25:26

Well, I mean, I imagine like even

25:26

that I think for some entrepreneurs is

25:31

like totally outta reach for them, right? Like, the idea of, well, how do I find

25:33

a hundred people, one, two, how do I

25:38

find sources for, for funding three?

25:42

Like, they're not used

25:42

to building a team yet.

25:44

They're kind of more in the social, or

25:44

excuse me, the solo entrepreneur route.

25:48

Yeah. Um, and so like there's a lot

25:48

of infrastructure and financial

25:52

need in order to even explore

25:52

the web three, web three space.

25:58

So what would you say

25:58

to the person who is.

26:03

By their own, whether it's

26:03

personal limitations or just

26:06

financial means or like experience,

26:06

just their own limitations.

26:09

Where they're at right now, web three

26:09

all together is totally out of reach

26:15

and they're just trying to do their

26:15

best with the tools and infrastructure

26:18

that they know how to use in the web. Two, what kind of advice do you

26:20

have for them to apply some of the

26:26

things Web three that has taught us

26:28

in the web two environment? Yeah, I mean that's really,

26:30

that right there is really why

26:34

I started Ascendance, right? So, um, there are, there are a ton of

26:36

really empathetic, um, Good-hearted,

26:45

hardworking, intelligent people around the

26:45

world who just don't have access, right?

26:49

To funding, to community, um, to the

26:49

infrastructure that they need to,

26:54

you know, take some of their ideas

26:54

or take some of their good intentions

26:59

and, and do something with them,

26:59

um, with a web three tech stack.

27:02

Or even not, not just with web

27:02

three, but just in general, right?

27:06

To be able to manifest, um, what

27:06

they're trying to bring into the world.

27:10

Into the world on a bigger scale

27:10

and, and impact more people.

27:13

Right? Um, so I think one of the, well, two

27:14

answers to that question, um, One

27:22

of the most important concepts of

27:22

Web three is composability, right?

27:26

So if you solve a problem once, it

27:26

shouldn't have to be solved again.

27:31

Um, one of the things that I'm putting

27:31

together right now around, um, ascendants

27:35

is, is really a community for visionary

27:35

leaders, um, to be able to find those

27:42

collaborators, to find that community

27:42

and, and find, um, the resources to

27:46

bring their ideas into the world. Um, for example, I have a, I

27:48

have a friend who has a product

27:52

called Drop Chain, right? His name's Carter.

27:54

He, he co-wrote the white paper

27:54

for my creator Token app with me.

27:58

Brilliant dude. Um, CTO O of another blockchain

28:00

company called Weblon.

28:04

That's, that's doing some cool stuff. He has this product called Drop Chain,

28:05

where you can pretty much like he.

28:11

Take your idea, take your your

28:11

Web two idea or you know, any kind

28:15

of basic application and bring it

28:15

onto web three with a couple lines

28:21

of code, um, on the Aand network.

28:24

So if, if you wanna set up a Dao, if you

28:24

want to, and again, I understand there are

28:28

barrier to even some of these concepts.

28:31

So, um, that's, that is part of it

28:31

is just like that basic education

28:36

of, you know, what is this stuff and

28:36

how could we start to thinking about

28:39

using it, um, is also very important.

28:42

But let's say you, you've done a

28:42

little bit of research and maybe

28:45

you understand some of the concepts,

28:45

um, but you don't know how to get.

28:49

You're, you know, I wanna start

28:49

this Chinese traditional medicine,

28:53

Dao and I have two people, right? I don't have a hundred people.

28:56

I have two people. We wanna start putting something together.

28:59

Um, but we have no tech experience, right?

29:01

And we, we don't know. We, we looked up Dao on Google and

29:03

so we, we know what it is, right?

29:07

But, um, we don't really

29:07

know how to apply it.

29:10

Um, ideally I'd like for people

29:10

like that to be able to come,

29:14

to, come to Ascendants, come to.

29:17

Community and be able to go find a

29:17

product or find a solution that's

29:21

already built and plug and play it right.

29:24

Like if one person develops a Dow

29:24

model that makes sense for a small

29:27

community, um, to organize and get

29:27

information out into the world.

29:31

You know, maybe it's a content doo,

29:31

it's just people who are trying to

29:35

come to gather around a specific topic.

29:37

Um, and maybe there's, you know, some

29:37

basic governance models in there.

29:41

Um, there's, you know, some mechanism

29:41

for like organizational structure

29:46

that can start really small and

29:46

then kind of scale at your own pace.

29:49

Um, they can just take that code

29:49

and, and take all the information

29:52

that's been created around it, um,

29:52

set it up and, and be good to go.

29:57

They don't have to learn how to write smart contracts. They don't have to learn how

29:58

to do any of the backend stuff.

30:02

Um, they just gotta be passionate

30:02

about something and have some kind of

30:06

expertise that's valuable for the world. And we can probably find.

30:11

Some way to amplify that idea with the

30:11

technologies, the products, um, the

30:17

consultants that we have access to. And then from there, you know, you can

30:19

show, if you can show traction, right?

30:23

You can show that, uh, well people

30:23

actually do care about acupuncture

30:28

and Chinese traditional medicine,

30:28

and I have 10 people that responded.

30:33

Um, you know, I set up this, Dao

30:33

set up this, um, content and now

30:37

I have some people responding

30:37

to my information, right?

30:40

Well then we could, we could go and

30:40

connect you to, uh, you know, potential

30:44

funding sources or grant sources. Uh, there's a company called Storage, a

30:45

decentralized cloud storage company that's

30:50

funding like a lot of really good socially

30:50

impactful ideas right now, even at like

30:55

five to 10 to $15,000 ranges, right?

30:59

Um, fast grants that you can

30:59

get really quickly via tokens.

31:03

Um, so we can help you maybe

31:03

find the initial seed funding

31:07

to test your idea from there. You know, maybe scale it to, if it's a

31:09

aligned with our mission of unlocking

31:14

human potential, there's probably people

31:14

in our community that will resonate with

31:17

it, that will support you, um, creates

31:17

your minimum viable community, so to

31:22

speak, instead of your, you know, it's

31:22

not just product and web three, it's

31:25

it's community that's really valuable

31:25

because if the product is, you know,

31:32

pieced together from all these Lego

31:32

parts of other stuff that other people

31:36

have built, it's, it's not necessarily

31:36

about building a huge moat around

31:39

your proprietary technology anymore. It's just, it's just finding the right

31:41

pieces to provide value to your community.

31:45

Um, if you, which

31:46

I think is applicable in

31:46

the web 2.06, that is immediately

31:49

absolutely applicable and wet

31:49

to, because we had this whole culture.

31:56

This whole tech startup culture that

31:56

was all about like, how can I own

31:59

this piece of tech and control all

31:59

the access to it, control the flows

32:03

of capital, um, and just like control

32:03

human potential instead of unlocking it.

32:09

And the web three ethos of if I solve

32:09

the problem once I, anyone should be

32:14

able to take that solution and apply it. Um, and how does my network not control

32:17

the flow of, of resources, capital,

32:23

human potential, but unlock it. That can be applied to

32:25

any type of business

32:27

model. Yeah. The model that I'm really

32:28

appreciating, and I think you'll

32:30

relate to this too, is Alex or Mosey. Mm-hmm.

32:32

. It's just about giving, it's just

32:32

about sharing and helping people think

32:37

and, and scale and like what do you

32:37

need for a business and how, as he

32:41

says it, how do you play the game? And I think that is,

32:43

there's so much earnestness.

32:48

in that model that a lot

32:48

of people can learn from.

32:51

And it seems like it's almost

32:51

directly what you're speaking

32:53

towards. A hundred percent. Yeah. He, he does a really good job

32:55

of just, again, like free game,

32:59

providing that access to information

32:59

for people, um, free of charge.

33:05

I mean, he just, he just gives it all away. And then at a certain point, you know,

33:07

if you're at the level of companies

33:11

that he would come in and invest

33:11

in, and, um, I believe it's like

33:15

over 3 million revenue or something. Yeah, three to 5 million a year.

33:18

Yeah. Um, then it, it's beneficial for him

33:18

because he has all this visibility and so

33:23

he's done a really good job of creating

33:23

and like abundance based ecosystem

33:29

around his brand because like he's,

33:29

he's giving away a lot of value and then

33:35

whatever value that he gets back, um,

33:35

which of course he will get value back.

33:39

Um, it's mutually beneficial

33:39

for everyone involved.

33:42

It, it seems. Cool. Well, that's really fascinating.

33:45

I've always. Really thought

33:48

about this sort of like 2.0

33:48

relevance versus 3.0 ethos, and it's

33:53

really fun to dive into that conversation. I wanna shift here for, for,

33:55

for pivot here for a little bit

33:59

and talk about your journey.

34:01

So you, you and I are on a similar

34:01

path right now in that we both

34:05

have just launched a new brand. We're both stepping into the idea of

34:07

expressing our ideas with more fullness,

34:11

more clarity, more confidence, more

34:11

ease, um, and just kind of throw in

34:16

ourselves at the process of sharing.

34:19

And so I'm just wondering what

34:19

that journey has been like for

34:21

you so far with Ascendants. You know, you've, you've

34:23

started a podcast,

34:25

obviously

34:26

your sharing ideas

34:26

in new and innovative ways.

34:30

What's that been like for you? How, how, how does it feel to share, to

34:31

share and try to amplify these ideas?

34:36

Yeah, I mean it, for me it's,

34:36

you know, key theme in my life

34:42

this past year has been alignment. . So the, uh, the more that I really kind

34:44

of look within myself and determine

34:51

like, what am I supposed to bring into

34:51

the world, um, and really, really sit

34:57

with that and really search kind of the

34:57

intersection of my areas of expertise

35:03

and what I'm, I'm passionate about and,

35:03

and kind of see as a need in the world.

35:07

Um, that's where when I'm able to

35:07

like really find that intersection

35:12

of expertise, passion, and like real

35:12

world problem solving, um, I, it

35:19

something in me feels right about that. And, um, the, the hardest part

35:21

has been, I, I've kind of had this

35:26

concept in me for a while, I think.

35:30

You know, ascendants is kind

35:30

of about a new model of growth.

35:34

Um, bajai, the former CTO of Coinbase,

35:34

had this tweet earlier this year that

35:39

was like, you know, we're not in a

35:39

developing and undeveloped world anymore.

35:43

We're in a ascending and descending world.

35:46

And if you look at America like we're

35:46

developed, but in a lot of ways we're not.

35:49

We're descending because we're,

35:49

we're printing tons of money.

35:53

We're only optimizing for short-term

35:53

metrics like G D P, um, you know, a lot of

35:58

socially and, uh, health-wise, like we're

35:58

falling on, on a lot of metrics actually.

36:04

And, and so thinking about ascendants

36:04

is like a more holistic model for

36:09

growth and, and really, you know,

36:09

pushing the limits of human potential

36:13

as we think about the future, right?

36:16

Coming at a faster and faster rate. I, I think that's something that,

36:18

um, more people need to talk about.

36:21

And, and the more that I talk

36:21

about it, the more that I.

36:24

try to get to the core essence of,

36:24

of what it is that I'm supposed to

36:29

speak on and bring into the world. Um, you know, the stronger my voice

36:30

resonates and the more opportunities

36:37

then come back to me as, as well. I think the, I've, I've tried a lot of

36:39

things as an entrepreneur and I've had

36:44

success at a lot of different things,

36:44

but I've also, I find that, um, if I'm

36:48

not aligned spiritually and, and not

36:48

really, um, not really doing what I

36:54

know I'm supposed to be doing, I, I'm

36:54

never able to sustain that success.

36:59

Um, or, or I burn out. So yeah, I can

37:02

really relate to that. Yeah. Right. Like this brand for me has

37:03

also been all about alignment.

37:07

And I've always been the voice guy. I've always been the voice guy.

37:11

But, but, but what has the process

37:11

been like for you stepping into your

37:15

voice with more, more expression,

37:15

like, did you have imposter syndrome?

37:19

Did it feel strange to listen to

37:19

yourself, express these ideas in new ways?

37:23

Like, What was your own

37:23

personal journey like?

37:26

Yeah, well it started with,

37:26

back in February, I just deleted

37:32

everything on my Instagram cuz

37:32

I was, I I wasn't, I knew I one

37:37

you de delete one post by one

37:37

post by like, well, cause that's a

37:40

manual promise. I think I archived it, but

37:41

it's still on there somewhere.

37:44

Dedication. No, I, I completely reset my, cuz

37:45

that was the social media I had.

37:49

The biggest still is the social media. I have the biggest following on

37:51

and, um, not that I have an insane

37:55

following or anything, but, uh, but

37:55

I have a little community and, um,

38:00

I, I just realized I wasn't being

38:00

authentic to who I knew myself to be.

38:05

Um, I wasn't living, you know, I was

38:05

trying to live my purpose, but I, there

38:09

was some cognitive dissonance there. And then I'd spent the last couple

38:11

years like doing a lot of marketing

38:15

in the nightlife and entertainment

38:15

industry and, Um, really grateful

38:19

for the relationships i I built there

38:19

and, um, mentors and, and people

38:23

that, um, lessons I was able to learn.

38:26

But, um, but marketing nightclubs

38:26

didn't align with who I was anymore.

38:31

I didn't believe in it. I didn't really believe in getting

38:32

people to go buy alcohol for

38:36

a ton of money every weekend. It, it wasn't what I was

38:38

trying to put into the world.

38:40

And, um, so I, I said, you know,

38:40

one day like, uh, I'm gonna reset

38:46

everything and, and just start figuring

38:46

out like, what is my authentic voice?

38:50

Cuz I don't think I've ever really

38:50

fully committed to bringing that out.

38:54

Um, that's a vulnerable journey.

38:57

It was, it was scary. And I, and I also, I decided to, um,

38:58

give up, you know, to leave some of the.

39:04

The engagements that I had,

39:04

um, on the marketing side.

39:09

And again, it wasn't like

39:09

any hate to to anyone.

39:13

Um, it was just more so like I, I

39:13

couldn't be spending my time on it.

39:17

And so I lost revenue. I lost, um, you know, a, a good chunk

39:18

of my revenue actually at the time.

39:23

And, and, um, so it, it was, it

39:23

was definitely a little scary.

39:29

It was definitely vulnerable. Um, but I How did you respond

39:33

to that? Right, like, like I imagine

39:33

if it's anything, how I felt

39:38

when you had that transition. Like, I felt I got when I left

39:40

my previous agency and like had

39:44

my own sort of like standing for

39:44

what I believe in my own ethos.

39:48

Yeah. Like, it felt like I hit rock bottom. Like, I'm gonna be totally straight.

39:51

Like I, I felt like I lost

39:51

everything except my spark felt

39:57

more alive, if that makes sense. Does that resonate?

40:00

Did it feel

40:00

like a rock bottom for you? It definitely resonates. I, I think I've had.

40:04

I've had, it didn't feel like a, I

40:04

guess I, I had a, like a real, real

40:09

rock bottom like years ago that kind

40:09

of started my entrepreneurial journey.

40:14

So I, I always felt like I had my

40:14

feet under me to an extent, but it

40:20

definitely felt like a mini rock bottom. It definitely felt like, um, okay,

40:22

well, , we're, we're rebuilding again.

40:28

Like, we're starting from zero again. Um, and there, but there's

40:29

also excitement to that too.

40:33

Um, es especially for, for anyone

40:33

who's ever been an entrepreneur, like

40:37

the excitement of starting and, and

40:37

building something and seeing like

40:43

your ideas come into the world is, is

40:43

also part of the reason why we do this.

40:48

And so for me it, what was

40:48

exciting was knowing that.

40:54

Uh, that at least now, you know, every,

40:54

everything that I've done to this

40:59

point has, has taught me something.

41:01

It's given me a, a powerful skillset,

41:01

a powerful network, um, you know,

41:05

access to a lot of powerful tools. But I think, you know, one of the things

41:08

that people need to learn, um, is like, I

41:16

think a lot of people should spend their

41:16

twenties going after what they think they

41:21

want, because once they get it, they're,

41:21

a lot of people will probably realize

41:25

it's not actually what they wanted. And that was definitely true for me.

41:28

Like, I had, I had success. Um, I thought I just wanted to make

41:30

it, I thought I just wanted the money.

41:33

I thought I just wanted to, you know, be

41:33

relevant and, um, and create something

41:39

that got traction in the world.

41:41

But I realized that if I, if

41:41

I do that and have success and

41:45

I'm not aligned, I'm so unhappy. So

41:48

if it's all about impact, right?

41:51

Is that what you're saying? It's about aligning the money, the

41:51

impacts and like how I'm using my voice.

41:59

How are you using your voice? Well, I'm trying to use it to, I, I'm

42:01

trying to use it to help people who have

42:05

been in the positions that I've been in.

42:08

Cuz like I, as a 22, 23 year old, um, like

42:08

I was around the crypto space, I had all

42:16

these ideas of like how this potentially

42:16

could be, um, impactful in the world.

42:23

But I didn't follow those ideas. I just followed the money.

42:26

Um, I didn't follow like my, I

42:26

didn't follow what was really on my

42:33

heart, um, to bring into the world.

42:36

Like I tried to, I, and I

42:36

definitely came through in

42:38

moments, um, but I always kind of.

42:42

Let other people that I was partnered

42:42

with or um, other people that I was

42:47

working with kind of take front and

42:47

center and, and built around their voice

42:51

instead of building around my own voice.

42:53

Totally relatable. And so when you don't like, when you

42:55

don't feel confident enough in your own

43:00

voice and your own like model of the

43:00

world to really lead yourself, then you

43:06

get led down other paths by other people.

43:08

Not because they're evil, but just

43:08

because everyone has a different vision.

43:12

Right? And it's

43:12

the lesson that you need to learn, right?

43:14

A hundred percent. Like, like

43:15

I'm of the proponent

43:15

of responsibility over fault.

43:19

And so even in the environments in

43:19

my life where something traumatic or

43:26

challenging or hard happens to me, I of

43:26

course deal with the emotional response

43:31

necessary to that because it is important

43:31

to have healthy emotional expression.

43:35

But, and I also ask myself like, what

43:35

is, what is my responsibility here?

43:41

Um, cuz that's the only thing

43:41

that we can control, right?

43:43

And I feel like the

43:43

universe doesn't fuck it up.

43:47

Like the universe doesn't give us

43:47

what we're not meant to have to learn

43:51

what we're, what, what is ours to

43:52

learn on the process of life, which

43:56

is to evolve and to, to grow, right?

43:58

Like, that's what everything

43:58

in nature is doing constantly.

44:02

That's what what it is. Growth and decay. Growth and decay.

44:05

Um, but I would love to learn

44:05

more of like your origins.

44:10

You know, it sounds like you had

44:10

a rock bottom experience that sort

44:14

of catapulted your entrepreneurial

44:14

journey, which I can totally relate to.

44:18

Um, I was a teacher, I was totally

44:18

burnt out, didn't have any money.

44:21

I was over exerting myself. Like it was basically school

44:22

come home and then numb out.

44:26

With like marijuana and Chinese food

44:26

because it's all I had the energy to do.

44:30

Yeah. Like what, what is your

44:31

entrepreneurial origin story?

44:35

Yeah, I was, well, I guess

44:35

it kind of goes back to some

44:40

experiences I had when I was 18.

44:42

So I, uh, when I was 18, I had

44:42

about a four to six month period

44:47

where I, I was like suicidal.

44:49

I was just so, um, I didn't know

44:49

how to deal with my emotions.

44:53

I, I just dealt with some traumatic

44:53

experiences, um, in my adolescence

44:59

that I'd never processed. And, um, I just, I hit a, I had

45:01

a relationship end on me and,

45:06

and something just snapped where

45:06

I just, I couldn't handle it.

45:09

Um, and so, I, I was able to, you

45:09

know, thankfully I had, I always

45:14

had good people in my, in my life

45:14

who kind of helped pull me, um,

45:18

you know, back onto the right path.

45:21

And, um, so I, I was very blessed

45:21

to be in, in environments where,

45:26

um, you know, I, I never really

45:26

fell off the rails completely.

45:30

Um, but I definitely struggled

45:30

and as a, as a lot of people

45:34

do at times in their teens. Um, so I, I definitely relate to a lot

45:35

of other people's experiences that I've,

45:41

I've heard about in the last few years. Um, because I, I definitely, I was one of

45:42

those teens who, um, just like had, seemed

45:50

to have, you know, I was captain of the

45:50

basketball team, I was a great student.

45:56

Um, but something in me just like

45:56

didn't, there was always something,

46:03

some part of me that just didn't.

46:07

Resonate with like, the way the model of

46:07

the world that religious teachers and,

46:12

and you know, people and teachers in my

46:12

school and just older adults were, were

46:17

kind of putting onto me like the path that

46:17

they followed didn't seem authentic to me.

46:22

Um, and so I just was, I wasn't

46:22

excited about, uh, going to college

46:26

and getting a career and, and

46:26

working for 40 years and then, uh,

46:31

you know, retiring and I think that

46:33

consciousness is like super present. Mm-hmm. these days.

46:35

Mm-hmm. , like that exact same experience,

46:35

just very relatable, but

46:39

continue. And so with, because I one

46:39

didn't know how to deal with my

46:44

emotions and never done medi. I'd never meditated.

46:46

I'd never, you know, now

46:46

I'm, I'm a yoga teacher.

46:49

I, I meditate every day. , um, have really explored

46:51

my own spirituality.

46:55

Spent a lot of time, you know,

46:55

healing myself in my early twenties.

46:59

Um, hadn't gone on that journey yet, so

46:59

I just didn't know how to deal with, um,

47:04

all this trauma and all these emotions

47:04

that were, were in me already being,

47:07

like a really hypersensitive, um, person.

47:12

And then I also didn't have

47:12

any like, inspiration or hope

47:16

for the future at the time. Um, there was always some piece of hope

47:18

in me that like, kept me going, but from

47:24

the opportunities that I saw around me

47:24

and the path that was kind of set before

47:27

me by, you know, all the teachers,

47:27

all the people, and again, no hates

47:32

my family, but the, the path that they

47:32

took, um, it just wasn't exciting to me.

47:37

Like I, I knew there was so. more, something more meaningful

47:39

to life than, um, than the

47:43

traditional corporate path.

47:45

Yeah. I always had this

47:45

feeling as a kid, always.

47:48

Mm-hmm. , where I was like almost

47:49

borderline flabbergasted.

47:51

Like, this is it. Like this, this is what

47:53

life is supposed to be like.

47:56

This just doesn't make sense. Right. So then how did all of this challenge,

47:58

this sort of like relatable 18

48:06

year old who's like, what the

48:06

fuck is going on with the world?

48:08

I'm feeling all of these emotions that I've likely suppressed most of my life, like.

48:12

, ah, I can't handle this. This is overwhelming.

48:15

Maybe I should end it. Right? Like that's a common, I

48:16

think, relatable story.

48:19

How did that catapult you into going like,

48:19

Hmm, maybe I should be an entrepreneur?

48:25

Yeah. Well, it, it happened over

48:25

a period of years, right?

48:28

So coming out of that dark

48:28

place, I kind of found myself

48:33

on like a personal growth kick.

48:35

Um, you know, I discovered Tim

48:35

Ferris, I discovered Tony Robbins.

48:40

I started to, because like, some

48:40

part of me knew that there was a,

48:44

a more meaningful or more inspiring

48:44

path that I could find out there.

48:49

I was like, I'm gonna do

48:49

everything I can to find it.

48:51

And I, so I still went to,

48:51

it took me a few years, um,

48:56

because I still went to college. I still just kind of kept following

48:57

the path I was on, you know, while

49:02

I was actively searching for,

49:02

um, searching for something more.

49:08

But I. , I just did everything.

49:11

You know, I, I read tons of books.

49:14

I, um, started learning

49:14

about entrepreneurship.

49:17

I started learning about, um,

49:17

like biohacking and, and health.

49:22

And at the time I actually, you know,

49:22

a lot of my, uh, mental health issues,

49:27

I realized later on were probably

49:27

related to some of the physical

49:31

health issues I, I had because I, I

49:31

found out I had pretty severe mold

49:35

toxicity, um, several years later.

49:38

And so I just, I started kind of

49:38

just developing self-knowledge.

49:43

Yeah.

49:43

There is a huge di huge

49:43

Venn diagram overlap between

49:47

physical health and mental health. Like huge, often totally

49:48

not even discussed.

49:52

No. Yeah. Very interesting. And so I, I just started to make all

49:54

these connections between the different

49:58

parts of my life and, and also just like

49:58

learn anything I could, consume anything

50:03

I could, um, for like three, four years.

50:06

And then I, I did go into the

50:06

corporate world for about.

50:09

Seven months. Um, but my intention was always to

50:10

quit within like three years, and I

50:14

ended up quitting within seven months.

50:17

Um, I, I wanted to, I wanted to see what

50:17

it was like, and I wanted to, for me,

50:22

like learning language and learning how

50:22

people think and, and just understanding

50:27

different models has, has been

50:27

something that's always fascinated me.

50:31

So, um, I, because I had the

50:31

opportunity to take a well paying

50:35

job right out of college and, and I

50:35

didn't really have like a business

50:39

set up or, or like a strong plan. I was, you know, trying a bunch

50:41

of little selling stuff on Amazon.

50:45

I was just trying everything I could,

50:45

but, um, because I didn't have like a

50:51

million dollar business yet, I went into

50:51

the corporate world and, and just kind.

50:57

You know, learn that environment,

50:57

which was, which was great when I was

51:00

running an agency and communicating

51:00

with corporate leadership to close

51:05

deals and, and do marketing because

51:05

I understood how to communicate,

51:09

which I think is, is very underrated.

51:11

Like just understanding corporate

51:11

communications is, is something more

51:16

entrepreneurs need to, to work on.

51:18

Um, good. Just gonna

51:21

say communication in general. Agreed. And like, the cool thing about

51:23

communication is it's the tool we use to

51:26

engage with literally every human being. Every single one involves communications.

51:30

So probably a skillset we should

51:30

engage in and try to figure out

51:35

how can we find efficiencies? How can we be more authentic?

51:37

How can we get our points across, how

51:37

can we believe in ourselves enough to

51:41

express what we're trying to communicate?

51:43

Um, I just think it's,

51:45

Very important. Yeah. And it goes right back to

51:47

using your voice, right?

51:49

That's what it's about. Absolutely. So I no, definitely, definitely

51:51

resonate with, with what you do.

51:55

Cause so you're,

51:56

you're, you're corporate there for

51:56

seven months, you quit, what happens?

52:00

Where do you go? What

52:01

I quit. Um, so I was starting to do consulting

52:01

in the, again, like I said earlier

52:08

in the show, um, I had this intuitive

52:08

sense that I needed to get into media,

52:13

um, and, and social media specifically.

52:16

And this is,

52:17

did you have any experience in media

52:19

prior? No. No. Okay. Not at all.

52:22

Not at, so did you see it

52:23

as like, I mean, I had

52:23

social media, opportunity Media.

52:25

Was, is there interest in it or was

52:25

it just like divine intervention?

52:29

The, the opportunity that

52:29

came up was at the time, 20 18,

52:34

19, like influencer marketing

52:34

was starting to be a big thing.

52:37

Um, and. Brands didn't.

52:40

I had a data background and, and brands

52:40

who were doing it, like there's a

52:44

brand in Minneapolis, love Your Melon.

52:47

They have like the hats and they used

52:47

to donate to, um, child cancer research.

52:52

I'm not sure if they do anymore, but,

52:52

um, they spent like a million dollars on

52:57

an influencer campaign and got like 10

52:57

photos and, and basically nothing from it.

53:01

They had no data. Um, so people, brands were just

53:02

spending, they're like, well, I need to

53:06

do the, you know, with any new thing. It's like, oh, well I gotta get into this.

53:09

Let's spend a bunch of money

53:09

and then we'll figure out,

53:12

you know, how it's valuable. And, um, so I came in and, and was

53:13

working with some, some different

53:18

individuals who had relationships

53:18

with like larger artists and

53:21

influencers. And So at this point in your life,

53:22

was this like a full, like it

53:24

went from not no corporate to like

53:24

full-time entrepreneur doing the

53:29

influencer media marketing stuff in

53:32

a, in about like two, three months? Yeah. Okay.

53:34

Yep. Throw yourself at the wall. See what sticks.

53:36

I've always, yeah, for better

53:36

or for worse, I've always just

53:41

gone all in on, on everything. Same.

53:43

Guilty. Doesn't, uh, you know, I

53:44

wouldn't always recommend it.

53:46

I, I definitely, I wish I had a better

53:46

understanding of entrepreneurship and

53:52

like, managing money and, um, I, I wish

53:52

I had a better understanding of a lot of

53:57

things when I started. Well, what is, I mean, that, that

53:58

brings up a very curious question, like,

54:01

what is your biggest downfall as an

54:02

entrepreneur? Well, what happened was in 2019 when

54:03

I was doing this, I, I was working

54:09

with someone, um, on these, you

54:09

know, doing more of the data side

54:14

of, of influencer deals and stuff. Um, we were having some success and then

54:16

this dude ended up stealing a bunch of

54:22

money on a, on a contract and just kind

54:22

of like putting, putting me out to dry,

54:28

you know, with like to fend for myself.

54:31

Um, and I, I was depending on like

54:31

this dude's word, you know, he was,

54:40

uh, we had a bunch of business going

54:40

together and it pretty much all,

54:43

he just took everyone's money, um,

54:43

that we were working with and ran.

54:48

Um, and so I was basically left

54:48

with nothing, um, after having just

54:54

started full-time entrepreneurship

54:54

like three, four months ago.

54:58

Um, and I wasn't the one who

54:58

was like setting up the deals

55:02

and like running the business. So, and I'd never done that before.

55:06

So I pretty much just had the rug

55:06

pulled from out, out from under me.

55:10

Um, through that unfortunate

55:10

situation I did, I met.

55:17

, um, I met a business partner by the name

55:17

of Taio Daniel, who I started a Turner

55:22

Media with, um, my marketing agency.

55:24

And because we had both, um, been

55:24

screwed over by this dude, we, uh,

55:29

we were helping each other out. And, and he had kind of helped me

55:31

navigate that situation and a little bit.

55:34

And, um, so I ended up creating these

55:34

relationships through that, um, through

55:41

that situation that I probably never

55:41

would've created, um, which is what

55:44

got me into entertainment and, and

55:44

into, um, a lot of the more like, music

55:51

related work that I, I started doing.

55:53

Um, cuz cuz he had a bunch of

55:53

relationships and, um, so again,

55:59

it, it forced me to learn a lot of

55:59

things really quick and on the fly.

56:04

And, and I think, um, in a lot of ways,

56:04

especially in business, losing money is

56:10

your best teacher paying is your, is your

56:10

best teacher for better or for worse cuz

56:14

you remember it and you, you are forced

56:14

to figure out, like, in the real world,

56:18

this is how I get through this situation.

56:20

Instead of like, here's

56:20

what the textbook says.

56:23

Which I

56:23

think is actually the

56:23

role of human suffering.

56:26

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

56:28

Okay, so, so,

56:29

so I'm I'm not sharing, I'm

56:29

hearing the, the answer to the question,

56:34

um, although maybe I can read through

56:34

the lines, but what, what would

56:37

you say your, your biggest struggle

56:37

or downfall is as an entrepreneur?

56:42

Biggest struggle is currently,

56:42

or, or biggest struggle I've overcame.

56:47

Ooh, let's do both cuz I think both are relevant.

56:49

Okay. Yeah. The biggest, biggest struggle I

56:50

overcame was being really like

56:56

understanding how to, how to actually

56:56

operate as an empathetic entrepreneur.

57:02

As, as someone who is like really. I can, my gift, and I, I would say

57:04

it's my gift and my biggest struggle

57:10

is just having a really high level of

57:10

empathy because I can, I can really

57:16

step into people's stories and like

57:16

understand their, their perspective,

57:20

understand, you know, um, how they're

57:20

seeing the world really quickly.

57:25

And so that's great. Like if, if you want to, again,

57:26

coming back to communications, if you

57:30

want to communicate effectively to

57:30

people, that's a really great skill.

57:34

But it's also, um, it's also dangerous

57:34

if you don't have like a strong sense

57:39

of your own voice because you can lose

57:39

yourself in other people's vision.

57:43

So from your perspective then, is

57:43

the solution set like becoming more aware

57:48

of yourself, becoming more aware of, of

57:48

your needs, your emotional tendencies?

57:53

You're, you're expressing your ideas,

57:53

like what would you say the solution

57:57

set is to the empathetic entrepreneurs? Because that's kind of Yeah.

58:00

We're, you know, we're both

58:00

in the same space Yeah.

58:02

Of really trying to empower empathetic

58:02

entrepreneurs with things like

58:05

boundaries and, and, um, becoming

58:05

more assertive of your ideas and

58:09

being more authentic to, to yourself. But like, what is the solution

58:11

set to that challenge?

58:14

Yeah. I would, I would say

58:14

that a hundred percent.

58:17

It's it's understanding yourself,

58:17

understanding what's authentic to you.

58:22

Um, kind of going on that, I guess I would

58:22

call it healing journey to like, really

58:28

it's, if you have a high level of empathy,

58:28

like there's, there's usually always like

58:32

a light in a dark side to that where like

58:32

you probably have some trauma or some

58:37

stuff that like you need to work through. And, um, you know, once you kind of

58:39

understand how to start dealing with

58:44

that, you, you realize it's all a gift. Like it's all, it's all to your benefit.

58:49

Because the more you go on that

58:49

journey and like, um, really

58:53

kind of strip away the parts of

58:53

your identity that weren't you.

58:56

Uh, you, you're able to really develop a

58:56

voice that has a strong resonance with the

59:03

people that you're meant to interact with. I mean, that's the thing about

59:07

self-discovery is like, it

59:07

can only happen experientially.

59:12

You're not gonna think your

59:12

way into self-discovery.

59:14

You're not gonna meditate

59:14

your way into self-discovery.

59:17

Now meditation plays a role. Sure. But like, real life

59:18

experience really matters.

59:21

Um, and so, you know, as, as stereotypical

59:21

as it may sound, my experience is like

59:28

losing myself has been a huge component

59:28

in the process of self-discovery.

59:34

Was that something you can agree with?

59:37

Yeah, I think there's this concept

59:37

of like the dark knight of the soul.

59:43

Yeah. Um, my, my thing is like, , but

59:43

I've always been a huge Batman fan.

59:48

So like The Dark Knight is

59:48

one of my favorite movies.

59:51

I've a

59:51

You like the original, like

59:52

the first one? Yeah. Like the, the, the Nolan.

59:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Nolan Trilogy. It's a great soundtrack.

59:58

Incredible. Yeah. On Zimmer killed that one.

1:00:01

, uh, as he always does. But the, so the metaphor that

1:00:02

I I love is like the dark.

1:00:08

It's, it's the dark night of the soul. Like not just the dark night, but

1:00:10

like, it's how you, it's how you

1:00:13

bring out like what's within you.

1:00:16

Like there's, there's this quote

1:00:16

from the Gospel of Thomas, um, that

1:00:21

has always stuck with me that says,

1:00:21

I think this might be a paraphrase,

1:00:26

but it essentially says, um, if you

1:00:26

bring forth what is within you, um,

1:00:30

what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what

1:00:32

is within you, what you do not

1:00:35

bring forth will destroy you. And I think especially for people

1:00:37

who are like really intuitive, really

1:00:41

empathetic and, and feel like they need

1:00:41

to do, Something meaningful in the world.

1:00:46

Like I think we both always had

1:00:46

some intuitive sense of like,

1:00:50

there, there's more than the

1:00:50

path that I've been given, right?

1:00:53

There's, I, I want to

1:00:53

impact people's lives.

1:00:55

I want to do something meaningful

1:00:55

with, you know, this experience, right?

1:01:01

Um, you, you kind of do have to

1:01:01

go through that dark night of

1:01:05

the soul, and part of that is it

1:01:05

doesn't have to be completely losing

1:01:09

yourself like it is for some people. Um, if you can do it consciously, great.

1:01:13

I think I've done, I've done it

1:01:13

both unconsciously and consciously

1:01:18

now, kind of as I've gone through my

1:01:18

journey, but there is an element of

1:01:23

of losing yourself to find yourself.

1:01:24

Yes. So then what would you say your

1:01:26

biggest struggle is right now as an

1:01:29

entrepreneur? Right now?

1:01:31

I think it's, it's communication still.

1:01:34

It's, it's figuring out how

1:01:34

to communicate, um, the.

1:01:39

The, like, what I want to bring

1:01:39

into the world now, right?

1:01:43

Because web three is, um, web three is

1:01:43

a big part of it and, and the models

1:01:50

and, and kind of the ethos and thought

1:01:50

patterns that are developing around,

1:01:54

around web three are, um, you know, what

1:01:54

some of what I'm trying to bring into

1:02:00

the world and empower visionaries to use.

1:02:04

Um, but it's still really, you know,

1:02:04

it's still really early in that space.

1:02:10

Um, and like, just even the concepts

1:02:10

that I'm playing with right now are

1:02:14

just not like, super widely understood.

1:02:18

Um, that doesn't mean I'm, you

1:02:18

know, a genius or anything.

1:02:21

I'm just, I'm just playing with

1:02:21

stuff at the edge and trying to

1:02:24

bring it back and again, make it

1:02:24

accessible to the rest of the world.

1:02:27

So, so that is my biggest struggle

1:02:27

right now is really figuring out

1:02:31

what I can, what value I can create,

1:02:31

like going to the edge of, of Web

1:02:36

three, and also, You know, my own

1:02:36

spiritual journey and just integrating

1:02:40

all these things and then like, I

1:02:40

really want to empower visionaries.

1:02:44

That's because I think the people

1:02:44

who have the ideas right now are,

1:02:48

are just not necessarily the people

1:02:48

who are being empowered, right?

1:02:52

Um, in a lot of cases, like we're not

1:02:52

optimizing for like empowering the

1:02:57

most creative, the most visionary,

1:02:57

uh, the people with the most potential

1:03:02

to create an abundant future are

1:03:02

not usually the ones who are like

1:03:06

lifted up by society right now. And I'd want to change that.

1:03:10

That's something I can get behind. So let's set the stage here.

1:03:13

We're gonna start, we're gonna

1:03:13

start wrapping things up, but

1:03:17

there was a topic we were going

1:03:17

to discuss about mathematics.

1:03:21

I think we're gonna run out of time, but

1:03:21

that could be a whole hour conversation.

1:03:24

Well, we'll come back to that. We'll come back to that. But, but let's set the stage here.

1:03:27

So like, let's envision

1:03:27

somebody who's you.

1:03:30

, uh, late teens, early to mid twenties.

1:03:34

They're kind of in that dark

1:03:34

night of this whole experience.

1:03:37

They're feeling kind of helpless. They're feeling kind of disencouraged

1:03:38

by the path that they feel

1:03:41

society has put in front of them.

1:03:44

You know, maybe they're suicidal,

1:03:44

they're struggling with personal

1:03:48

belief, struggling with even

1:03:48

sometimes getting out of bed.

1:03:51

Um, like that's it. That's, I think, a pretty big, big

1:03:52

portion of our society right now.

1:03:57

What do you have to say to them

1:03:57

as somebody who has ascended

1:04:01

from that experience into the

1:04:01

current phase of your journey?

1:04:06

Like, what's, what's your call to arms?

1:04:09

Yeah, that's a really good question.

1:04:12

Um, I, I would say, I mean, this is

1:04:17

super cliche, but like one quote

1:04:22

from Tony Robbins that always

1:04:22

stuck, stuck out to me, um, was

1:04:26

your current situation is not your. Final Destin destination.

1:04:30

Um, I think we get really, like

1:04:30

it's when you're, especially when

1:04:36

you're in survival mode, like the

1:04:36

hardest thing to do in survival mode.

1:04:39

And the reason why it's is so hard

1:04:39

to break these like generational

1:04:42

patterns, um, is that when you're

1:04:42

in survival mode, it's so hard to

1:04:47

envision, um, a different future.

1:04:49

Like you can only envision

1:04:49

being in survival mode, right?

1:04:53

Or being depressed or being,

1:04:53

you know, whatever it is, um,

1:04:55

that you're struggling with. And so I, I would say, um, you know,

1:04:57

learn how to meditate and, and just try

1:05:05

to do whatever you can to change your

1:05:05

state of consciousness, whether it's like

1:05:10

working out, whether that's meditating,

1:05:10

um, whether it's, it's finding some

1:05:14

spark, something that it inspires you.

1:05:17

Um, even if it's small, even if

1:05:17

it's like five minutes a day,

1:05:20

you know, find some, some thread

1:05:20

that you can pull that, um, that.

1:05:25

Allows you to envision a

1:05:25

better future for yourself.

1:05:30

Um, cuz if you can start to imagine

1:05:30

that, then it will start to become real.

1:05:34

Yeah. It reminds

1:05:35

me of a quote I heard the other

1:05:35

day, which was to have vision is to see

1:05:40

beyond the current condition of pain.

1:05:44

Like to see past that threshold, I

1:05:44

paraphrased it and probably butchered

1:05:47

it, but that was the basic principle. Um, moving, motivating, uh,

1:05:49

where, where can people find you?

1:05:54

How, how do we, how do we

1:05:54

stay in touch with Will

1:05:56

Preble? Yeah, you can find me.

1:05:58

My social handle is, is King.

1:06:01

Will, uh, William, it's xm, so King Will

1:06:01

XM on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, um,

1:06:10

I'm on LinkedIn actually spend a lot

1:06:10

more time on, on LinkedIn these days too.

1:06:14

So social is probably the best

1:06:14

place to find me right now.

1:06:17

Cool. I'm just gonna give you

1:06:17

some rapid fire questions. Hit me.

1:06:20

Cool movie that you would

1:06:20

recommend everybody.

1:06:24

watch. Definitely The Dark Knight.

1:06:26

I knew it a book that changed

1:06:28

your life, crime and Punishment.

1:06:31

By who? Uh, dte fc Tell me about it

1:06:32

is old Russian literature.

1:06:37

It's like the writing is crazy, but, um,

1:06:37

the thing about Crime and Punishment that

1:06:43

stood out to me was like, it basically

1:06:43

understanding that we all have light

1:06:52

and dark within us and that, um, like

1:06:52

we, we wanna feel like we're always

1:06:57

right, but like being able to, we,

1:06:57

we have to integrate our shadow, um,

1:07:03

if, if we're going to ascend, right?

1:07:05

So crime and punishment really like,

1:07:05

takes you through this, this dude's.

1:07:09

This intellectual dude who has all these

1:07:09

justifications for what he's doing.

1:07:13

It, it kind of takes you through his

1:07:13

journey to, um, moral redemption.

1:07:18

Um, and I think it's really relevant

1:07:18

for the age we live in cuz people are

1:07:23

very incentivized to, um, kind of stay

1:07:23

in their box of, of moral authority.

1:07:29

When in reality if we can't empathize

1:07:29

with someone on the other side, if

1:07:33

we can't understand that we all have

1:07:33

heaven and hell within us, um, you

1:07:37

know, we're, we're never gonna change.

1:07:39

And I think, uh, for me

1:07:39

personally, I think humanity right

1:07:42

now is on the path of redemption. And redemption is a very specific quality.

1:07:47

Um, and it's definitely something

1:07:47

I can stand behind in, in a, in

1:07:50

a sort of like challenging day. What's your go-to song?

1:07:55

Mm, I like the, recently,

1:07:55

the, the, I think it's used, this

1:08:02

gospel remix on the DJ Khaled album.

1:08:05

Kanye song. Yeah. Rock on You. You've always been into

1:08:08

Kanye. . Yeah.

1:08:10

I mean, you, you definitely,

1:08:10

there's always love hate moments

1:08:13

with Kanye, but, um, that's, I

1:08:13

think he's a visionary for sure.

1:08:16

Hey, rock

1:08:16

on. Any closing thoughts, my friend?

1:08:19

Yeah, I mean, I would say if

1:08:19

you're at all curious about web three,

1:08:25

um, you know, start Googling stuff

1:08:25

and, and just learning what you can, I

1:08:30

think the more, the more smart people,

1:08:30

the more empathetic people that at

1:08:34

least understand what's going on. The better right now.

1:08:37

You don't have to go become a developer,

1:08:37

but um, you know, explore your curiosity

1:08:42

with it because it'll lead you somewhere. Hey,

1:08:44

rock

1:08:44

on. Well again, we've got

1:08:45

Will Preble here today.

1:08:47

I appreciate you coming on. It's been so nice to connect.

1:08:49

I've missed you.

1:08:51

So it's been a minute. It's been a minute. Let's not, uh, let's not wait this

1:08:53

long to have the next conversation.

1:08:55

Hey, man,

1:08:55

I'm sure the conversations

1:08:55

will happen just in divine timing.

1:08:58

Thanks for listening out there,

1:08:58

and we'll see you next week.

1:09:01

Peace. Well that's a wrap.

1:09:03

Again, this is Voice and Impact podcast.

1:09:06

My name is Adam. Thanks for being here.

1:09:09

Thanks for being you. Thanks for doing all the good

1:09:11

things you

1:09:12

do, and we'll see you next week.