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0:57

Why hello there. Welcome to Radio

1:00

Rental. If you're new around here

1:02

and haven't heard, I'm your

1:04

host, Terry Carnation. On

1:06

Radio Rental, we play tapes of

1:08

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1:13

got real scary stories told

1:15

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1:20

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1:22

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1:24

and more. Stories like

1:27

these. This person was looking for

1:30

me. They start to take these

1:32

long strides towards me. I was

1:34

freaking out. We started

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seeing it everywhere we went. It

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1:41

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1:56

Tenderfoot Plus. between

2:00

the Mafia, the CIA, and the KGB.

2:03

That's where my new podcast begins. This

2:06

is Neil Strauss, host of To Live and

2:08

Die in LA, and I wanted to

2:10

quickly tell you about an intense new series

2:12

about a dangerous spy taught to businessmen for

2:14

their secrets and sometimes, their

2:16

lives. From Tenderfoot TV, this

2:19

is To Die For. To

2:21

Die For is available now. Listen

2:24

for free on the iHeartRadio app or

2:26

wherever you get your podcasts. Before

2:28

we get started, I have a new show to tell

2:30

you about from the Up and Vanish team. It's

2:33

called Status Untraced. Check

2:35

out this clip and stick around until the

2:37

end of the episode for the official

2:39

trailer. I

2:42

should return mid-September or so. If

2:44

I'm not back by then, don't

2:47

look for me. And

2:50

it was one thing that kind of made me feel weird

2:53

about whenever he'd talk about his plans

2:55

for India. And

2:57

the more I've thought about it, especially over the years,

3:01

it almost seemed like he was preparing

3:04

for something because he wanted

3:07

to be famous. He made that openly clear, like

3:09

that was his end goal. And

3:11

it was just weird as I thought about it more and

3:13

more, just how he

3:16

was trying to visit everybody before he went

3:18

on this one last big trip where

3:20

he was trying to find himself. Like

3:23

he was saying his goodbyes to

3:25

everybody and then just disappears.

3:35

Hey listeners, welcome back to Inside Tenderfoot

3:38

TV. Today we're going

3:40

inside the latest season of Up and Vanished

3:42

in The Midnight Sun. I'm

3:46

Laura Benson from the Tenderfoot team and I'll be

3:48

sitting down with Payne Lindsay, director

3:50

and host of this award-winning show. Join

3:52

us as we hear what it was

3:54

really like investigating the case of missing

3:56

Alaskan native Florence of Pilak. Grueling

3:59

travel. and cooperative law enforcement

4:01

and dangerous catfishing operations made

4:04

this investigation particularly worth unpacking.

4:07

Dive a little deeper with Payne into what you

4:09

can expect in the next installment of Up and

4:11

Vanished in the midnight sun. Payne,

4:15

can you tell me what made working on this story

4:17

different from the other cases that you've worked on? I

4:20

think the first thing that stands out is where

4:23

it's located geographically. I think

4:26

it's the furthest away from my

4:29

home in Atlanta I've ever been and

4:31

still been inside the

4:33

United States. It's a

4:35

completely different environment out there in Alaska and

4:38

Nome specifically is

4:40

different than most parts

4:42

in Alaska itself because of where

4:45

it's located and how you can get there.

4:47

There's no roads leading there. The

4:50

only way in and out are these two flights

4:52

a day on these small planes or

4:54

you're taking a boat and it's just

4:56

a tiny town on the

4:58

edge of the water and it just kind of

5:01

feels like you're on

5:03

the edge of the earth up there

5:05

way north on the Arctic

5:07

Circle. That was a one-of-a-kind

5:09

experience for me. So I think that

5:11

stands out the most right away. It's just where

5:14

these cases took place. Okay,

5:17

so given how far removed it is

5:19

for you and from your life, what

5:21

compelled you to actually choose this case

5:23

to pursue? Because I'm sure there are

5:25

thousands of other options that you had

5:27

that would have been stateside. Can

5:29

you talk a little more about that? Yeah, I think

5:31

that ever since season one of Up

5:33

and Vanished, this show became

5:35

a platform and

5:38

we've been able to create subsequent

5:41

seasons. For me, it's become, I

5:43

guess the way I put it is I look

5:46

at Up and Vanished, the podcast,

5:48

now as also a

5:50

resource and tool for the

5:52

victims' families, the community and

5:56

I feel like as a

5:58

true crime podcast, we can offer

6:01

the most support and help

6:03

to potentially move the needle and

6:05

find new information in a case

6:07

that is largely uncovered in the

6:09

media. And missing

6:12

Indigenous women has for a long

6:14

time been not covered as much

6:17

in mainstream media and it's been

6:19

a really large issue happening

6:21

right under our nose. To

6:25

me, it's an opportunity to shine

6:27

a spotlight on that and try

6:29

our best to make any difference

6:31

that we can by giving

6:34

the attention to families that

6:37

haven't been getting it. And

6:39

I think that just from the jump, that's

6:41

a great place to be. And

6:44

it's amazing that the podcast can even

6:46

do that. And so really since season

6:48

one, the victims in all the missing

6:50

persons cases have been victims that are

6:53

usually not covered as much in the

6:55

mainstream media. And I think

6:57

that that's been a theme

7:00

since 2017 that we want to continue. A

7:04

follow up to that, since you're going really

7:07

outside of your own community and you're

7:09

diving into these other worlds in this

7:11

show and in other shows, can you

7:13

talk a little bit about how you

7:15

establish trust with the people that

7:17

you're going to be interviewing with the families

7:19

of the victims, attempted trust with

7:21

law enforcement? Can you talk about that process and

7:23

your approach? Yeah, I mean, I think

7:25

that people are different everywhere.

7:28

But I also think that we're also

7:30

a lot the same

7:33

everywhere. Even if you don't

7:35

even speak literally the same language, I

7:38

think that if you're

7:40

going to a place as an outsider and

7:43

you're aware of that, just be

7:45

conscious of it and be willing to

7:48

learn and be willing to be patient

7:50

and understand things that you may not

7:52

know and just listen. And

7:55

I think that that universally translates.

7:58

But I'm going to a place like Nome, Alaska. and

8:00

I'm talking to the family of

8:02

Florence Akypialik, who is a

8:05

local Alaska native woman. I'm

8:08

learning for the first time a lot about

8:10

that culture and about how people grew up

8:12

here and what it's like to live here.

8:15

And I think it's okay

8:17

to ask questions sincerely and

8:20

you don't have to know the answers all the time. I

8:23

did as much research as I could, but

8:26

that would never inform me as much as

8:28

talking to somebody in real life would. And

8:31

so I go there willing to learn

8:33

and if I'm talking to

8:35

people about super vulnerable

8:37

topics, then I feel

8:40

like I want to offer myself as

8:42

available to talk about similar topics. If

8:45

I want you to be vulnerable with me,

8:48

then I'm going to be vulnerable with you.

8:50

And so that's really how I establish trust

8:52

is just by being for real. I

8:55

think for a lot of people, they get that,

8:57

that they can see that regardless

8:59

of whether or not they're hesitant

9:01

or scared. I think universally people

9:03

can recognize when other people are

9:06

being real and sincere. And

9:08

I've just leaned into that and I think

9:10

that for the most part, that's always been

9:12

a good thing and worked out. Just

9:15

being truthful, being honest, being

9:17

real about your objective and being willing

9:20

to listen and give a part of

9:22

yourself too if you're asking somebody

9:24

else to do that. So is

9:26

there a lot of conversation and interview

9:28

that happens before you actually start recording

9:30

and rolling when you're talking to victim's

9:33

families? Well, to be honest, we're always

9:35

rolling because we just learned that that's

9:37

the way to go because you

9:39

learn the hard way. Usually, unless

9:41

it's a super professional setting

9:43

where it's lights, camera, action,

9:45

there's not like a three,

9:47

two, one, we're rolling. Also,

9:51

that kind of feels a little bit

9:53

like we're making

9:55

you more nervous. It's like

9:57

we try to keep it casual. If

10:00

you hear a eight minute conversation

10:03

on the podcast, there's a good

10:05

chance that nine times out of

10:07

10, that was eight minutes from

10:09

two hours, right? We've

10:12

talked about all kinds of things and

10:14

gotten to the point where we're both more

10:17

comfortable with each other to get

10:19

to a point to talk about

10:22

these specific details or recall these

10:24

memories or develop

10:27

an articulate thought about something. And

10:29

so, yeah, there's a lot of conversations that

10:32

happen every single time that you

10:34

don't hear on the podcast because

10:36

they're not the content itself isn't

10:38

necessarily relevant, but it's

10:40

very relevant to the relationships that we're

10:42

establishing and as people

10:45

in real life. Yeah, absolutely.

10:48

So since you're in these

10:50

very emotionally charged conversations with

10:53

people, how do you personally

10:56

maintain neutrality during an interview or do

10:58

you even? Do you find yourself getting

11:00

really pulled in? Can you talk

11:02

about that experience? I think it

11:04

depends on the subject matter specifically,

11:08

who it is that I'm talking to specifically. But

11:11

when you're dealing with true crime

11:13

content, you're talking about murder, you're

11:15

talking about death, you're talking about

11:17

tragedy, you're talking about bad people,

11:19

people who are suffering, those are

11:22

aspects of this that are really

11:24

dark, sad, and unfortunate. And so

11:26

there's a lot of navigating that.

11:29

And there is a

11:31

level of objectivity that

11:33

I consciously put forth

11:35

to myself really more

11:37

so in the way that, and

11:40

this just as an analogy only,

11:43

like a therapist would or something.

11:45

We're like, if you're unpacking something

11:47

that was trauma related, which I've

11:49

even done before to

11:51

a therapist, they're mostly just listening

11:55

and they're not really giving

11:57

you too much or commenting on... the

12:00

way that you feel or how you're remembering it, etc.

12:03

Because it isn't about that. It's really

12:06

about you unleashing how you feel about

12:08

something. And so I'm always trying to

12:10

be respectful of that. And

12:13

a lot of times that means

12:15

just saying less and in the

12:18

right moments offering words of

12:20

support or I'll give

12:23

them my opinion if I think that they're doing a

12:25

really good job as something that they feel like they're

12:28

not. I see

12:30

that the other way, just as encouragement. And

12:33

then if you're talking about someone who's more of a

12:35

suspect, that's a whole different story.

12:37

I approach that a little bit more hard-nosed. Actually,

12:40

not a little bit, a lot of it. And

12:44

that's what that calls for. But when

12:46

you're dealing with people who've experienced the

12:48

tragedy, really the floor is all theirs.

12:51

And I just try

12:53

to consciously remain in a

12:56

active listening state that they can

12:59

feel and

13:01

see. They can see me listening

13:03

and hearing that and understanding that

13:06

and they get that validation

13:08

of okay, he heard me. Most

13:11

of the time I feel like that's what you want when you're unpacking something

13:13

like that. It's just can I be heard? And

13:16

that's real. And I feel the same way if I'm ever

13:18

doing that. So that's what I try to consciously

13:21

do in those kinds of scenarios. Is

13:24

that a skill that you have

13:27

learned and developed and worked on

13:29

throughout working on Up and Vanished? Or

13:31

is that something that you actually kind

13:34

of a character trait that you've had your whole

13:36

life? It's

13:39

a skill that I've been working on,

13:41

still working on, and

13:44

developing my whole life podcast

13:46

or not. Yeah. And

13:48

I think there are plenty of examples that

13:50

I won't even bring up about a past

13:53

relationship or something where active listening is just...

14:00

things that in everyday life, people

14:02

care about and feeling

14:04

understood and heard and things that I

14:07

value a lot. And so a lot

14:09

of it stems from how I felt

14:11

when I didn't feel like I was heard

14:14

or what it literally

14:16

was that made me feel that way. And

14:19

these are not completely just

14:21

like set in stone rulebook

14:23

rules. It's just

14:25

people skills and adapting to who

14:27

you're talking to and being willing

14:30

to understand them if they're different

14:32

than you or if they feel differently about different

14:35

things. And just also being consciously aware of that

14:37

too. And so I think

14:39

the podcasts up and

14:41

vanish especially and just talking

14:43

to all these people over the

14:45

years, strangers where I've felt majorly

14:48

uncomfortable like a lot of the time

14:51

and just didn't outwardly show it, it

14:54

has taught me to be

14:56

less scared about it and more confident

14:58

in the way that I'm

15:01

being perceived by somebody and

15:04

not being too scared to say things

15:07

or ask things because

15:10

most people want to tell you if

15:12

they trust you and that's why they're there in the first place.

15:15

I'm still always trying to get better

15:17

at that. And there's days where

15:19

it's a lot harder because I'm

15:21

tired or it's just like anyone else in life whatever

15:23

you're doing. But that's a tool that

15:25

I'm always sharpening that I didn't come out of the

15:27

womb being good at. I

15:30

just became more consciously aware

15:32

of it over the years and I think

15:34

that doing Up and Vanish

15:36

and talking to so many people over the years

15:39

helps me get a little better at that

15:41

and see things in a slightly different light

15:43

than maybe I didn't see exactly years ago.

15:48

Okay, you touched a little bit on

15:50

the difference between talking to

15:52

families and talking to suspects and the discomfort

15:55

a bit. When I was listening to the show, I was

15:58

legitimately scared for your safety a couple of days. of times,

16:00

especially as you're, you know, using

16:02

this old Facebook profile, and you're

16:05

getting these videos from John, from

16:07

Oregon John of guns,

16:09

like showing his guns off to you.

16:12

You're also in this really remote town

16:14

with no roads, you've kind of established

16:16

that maybe the police department is corrupt.

16:19

Can you talk about just the experience you

16:21

had going to meet John or maybe going

16:23

into some of these more kind

16:26

of sketchy scenarios and having those

16:28

conversations? Yeah, I

16:30

really tried to, in this

16:32

season, for that particular interview

16:34

and everything that built up to that

16:36

happening, try to pull the curtain back

16:38

a little bit for everybody for you

16:40

to see sort of the paranoia

16:43

and the live

16:46

active discussions, because all that stuff

16:48

was real, is real and is

16:50

kind of what you may

16:52

not see if we just jump cut it to

16:55

me in a bar with

16:57

Oregon John. Right. But yeah,

16:59

I would say that in this scenario, I

17:01

was well aware of the risk. But

17:04

I also knew that if we

17:06

planned this properly, that

17:09

we could minimize that risk. And

17:12

that, you know, really started with

17:14

being ahead on everything, being

17:16

there before he thought we were there,

17:18

having scouted this place and being there

17:20

hours before, having a backup plan for

17:22

this, a backup plan for that. And

17:25

most of those things never even had

17:27

to come into play. But knowing

17:29

that we had that in the back of

17:32

my head allowed me to, I

17:34

think, even be a little bit more confident there in

17:36

the moment because it was all

17:38

this buildup about Oregon

17:41

John and whether I should approach

17:43

him as this guy or myself

17:45

and getting him at this bar. And

17:48

that was crazy and stressful and

17:50

scary in itself. But then once we're

17:52

finally there, it's like it felt

17:54

like for a brief moment, hey, we did it, but

17:57

hey, we've done actually Nothing because

17:59

now. Well I'm here and he

18:01

thinks I'm somebody else. How do I

18:03

start bringing up this missing persons case

18:05

without sounding suspicious? Okay, we've talked about

18:07

at once. How do I bring it

18:10

up again? Why my so interested in

18:12

this right actually be here that your

18:14

I was there to par for two

18:16

hours and as it's in the podcast

18:18

it was probably about fifteen minutes or

18:20

so the you heard and that was

18:23

really over the course of two hours

18:25

of me talking about other things and

18:27

then slowly going back to that said

18:29

didn't seem. Weird. Which. That

18:31

was the first time I've ever done

18:33

that where I was posing as somebody

18:36

else and had to fear of. Him.

18:38

Discovering now and getting mad or

18:40

violent or whatever right, but you're

18:42

in a public place and so

18:44

I can outages to now a

18:46

little. It. Was one of those things where.

18:49

You. Know look in the mirror. why

18:51

are we doing this? If I'm too

18:53

scared. To do this. Like.

18:56

On that day which is totally

18:58

rational and totally okay. I.

19:01

Feel like maybe I shouldn't be making

19:03

pockets like this? Them. It

19:06

it's in and not every to grandpa cast has to

19:08

go knock on the back I store. But.

19:11

That's. What I

19:14

want to do to find answers

19:16

Or what I'm willing to do.

19:18

And. If I backed down now it's It's

19:20

like. It. Feels like I got

19:22

so far I could just see you

19:24

know a family member say why didn't

19:26

you talk to him right and I

19:28

could obscure say I was scared right?

19:30

the will why you doing this right

19:32

so I can as I leaned into

19:34

the to that the most and plus

19:36

we had the i might Dylan Cooper

19:38

their arm so we had some. Yeah.

19:41

Some muscle is heavier went down.

19:43

not really bus stance on has

19:45

to has it was a podcast.

19:48

Doors in the back for yeah

19:50

that was a. Totally.

19:52

Different beast. And in

19:54

that scenario, The.

19:56

Way I'm approaching it is. Stick.

19:58

To the plan. Don't get too

20:01

distracted. Ask. The questions

20:03

might. Ask. It again.

20:05

It's different if they know who you are

20:07

because you can ask it in different ways

20:09

and do it repeatedly. Business. Case

20:12

I had to go back. And. Forth

20:14

from talking about other things. Back.

20:16

To what's up with flow and

20:18

details about that. And.

20:21

Really, just not every time I ask about it

20:23

again I was thinking is this time he thinks

20:25

is weird. Is. This the time that he's

20:27

like y y u so edited know who are

20:29

you really. And. Then he

20:32

had brought up at one point this podcast

20:34

person and Ceo for a brief moment and

20:36

sitting there I thought sit as he is

20:38

he just calling me out as a he

20:40

saying i know who you are on a

20:42

pretend like. That's. Not the case and

20:44

keep going. And I realized no, actually,

20:46

he doesn't become that person. But.

20:49

I just kind of just staying tunnel

20:51

vision in that moment. And then when.

20:53

We're. Done When you leave and were

20:55

back in are safe place I'm like

20:58

holy shit which is happens. When.

21:00

I remember some of the stuff. let's go

21:02

listen tax or what what was said but

21:04

in the moment it was just laser. Focus.

21:07

On why we're here to. Don't regret

21:09

not asking these questions. This is your

21:12

only chance. Or.

21:14

And it seemed like see volunteered

21:16

a lot of information, right? Wasn't

21:19

he the first person that brought

21:21

up Florence's disappearance initially? Likely see

21:23

bragging or what. What? Initiated

21:25

his can is opening up about that. it

21:28

seemed really pretty wild. Meet you at just

21:30

Meet the strange on the internet and then.

21:32

Diver. Then. Or. Was that deep

21:35

in the conversation? It. Was early on

21:37

that we we got there actually. Ends

21:40

now was one the biggest. Puzzles.

21:43

Who were trying to solve is how do we get

21:45

there in the conversation and to me the eat out.

21:47

I thought the easiest way to do that would be.

21:50

If we could gets a gnome. Then. We

21:52

can get. To. That part the conversation.

21:54

And. I. didn't even have to

21:56

bring up known but we already had a backstory

21:59

in our heads that We were very familiar

22:01

with them and so we can talk about no and if

22:03

you talk about no long enough He's gonna talk about what

22:05

he did there why he left and

22:08

so we were talking about places in Alaska He

22:11

brought up no the second he did I stayed

22:14

on them That's when he

22:16

just opened up about that stuff. I didn't have

22:18

to ask him anything about those

22:21

details I think because it unfolded that

22:23

way is Why he

22:25

continued to tell more because I never plucked

22:27

that out of him initially he offered that

22:30

and From his

22:32

perspective that was a surprise to me and

22:35

I was very curious about that

22:37

and so me asking more questions

22:40

Would be valid in that scenario. And so

22:42

I just leaned into that but I was

22:44

definitely you know surprise

22:49

happily surprised that he Did

22:52

offer so much and you know, it makes

22:54

me wonder exactly Where

22:56

where his subconscious was it almost felt a

22:58

little bit like to me He

23:01

wanted to get these things off his chest

23:03

What whatever version of the story he was

23:05

telling true or not if part

23:07

of him wanted to say stuff

23:10

about this He probably hasn't said

23:12

much about it to many people Since

23:15

this is a real-time investigation and We

23:19

all want to know what's going on to the work at

23:21

John You had a great cliffhanger right at the end of

23:23

the final episode of the season Where

23:25

you call him up as yourself because he does

23:28

figure out who you are after you leave Can

23:31

you give us a little sneak peek without giving anything away? Do

23:33

you get a hold of him again? Well

23:35

to not spoil anything which is gonna be

23:37

a very unfun answer I'll

23:40

just put it this way. He knows who

23:42

I am. Yeah, and We're

23:45

not done yet Tune

23:47

in in June. All right Life

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drink AG1. I'm really interested

26:01

in how you related Florence's

26:03

case to Joseph Balderas's case.

26:14

Why of all of the cases

26:16

that happen, why do you think

26:18

those two are so closely linked?

26:21

Like, how did those become kind

26:23

of these tandem investigations for you?

26:25

Well, if you're in Nome and

26:28

you just walk the downtown

26:31

Front Street for five

26:33

minutes, if you see a

26:35

missing poster for Florence, within the

26:37

same 30 seconds, you're going to see a missing

26:39

poster for Joseph. They're the

26:42

two most recent,

26:44

suspicious, unsolved missing persons

26:47

cases in Nome

26:49

of young people who

26:52

just completely vanished, and there are

26:54

no answers at all. And

26:56

so because of that,

26:59

they are closely linked because why

27:02

did two people go missing in this town of 3,000 people,

27:05

and there's zero answers and there's posters everywhere,

27:07

and no one knows shit about it, right?

27:10

Also, just like Flo's

27:14

family had reached out to me on

27:16

email, Joseph's family also did the same

27:18

thing. And that

27:22

quickly sort of jump-started a relationship

27:25

with his sister and I, and

27:28

eventually met his mother and

27:30

his family. And she

27:34

was aware of this podcast just

27:36

like D'Isla was, and

27:39

they understood the value

27:42

that this could bring, and they

27:44

wanted us to cover

27:47

their loved one's story in the way

27:49

that they've heard before. That

27:52

allows us to go straight

27:54

into doing that, right? Otherwise,

27:57

if there's a case of that, that

28:01

I just found on the internet that I

28:04

wanted to do a story on, then

28:07

the first thing I'm doing is reaching out to

28:09

the family and explaining what this is and asking

28:12

them if they would want

28:14

to do something like that. In

28:16

this scenario, they reached out to me being

28:18

fully aware of what Up and Vanished is

28:20

and asked

28:22

if we would cover their

28:25

missing persons cases. So that

28:27

really jump-starts us and puts us

28:29

in a great spot to be able to go straight into the

28:32

whole point of this, which is finding

28:34

new information and hopefully trying to find

28:36

out what happened and who's responsible if

28:38

it's a murder. Right. So

28:40

can we expect to hear a lot more about his

28:42

case in the June installment? Yes.

28:46

We have been researching and

28:49

investigating Joseph's case for a long

28:53

time, pretty much since the very beginning. We

28:56

have so much information, new

28:59

information on his case, which

29:01

is really why we decided to

29:03

break it up into two parts like this

29:06

because we wanted to be able to give

29:09

both cases an authentic focus.

29:13

It's hard to do both at the

29:16

exact same time, but eventually they dovetail

29:18

together because of how small known is

29:20

and how the departments relate and how

29:23

this person is the same person over

29:25

here. In

29:28

part two of Midnight

29:30

Sun, we're diving just as deep

29:32

as we did in Florence's case,

29:35

in Joseph's case, and we have

29:37

tons of interviews and a lot

29:39

of new information, new leads

29:42

and persons of interest

29:44

that are still out there. We're

29:47

also still doing the same with Florence's case,

29:50

but yeah, you'll expect to

29:52

hear every single detail

29:54

about Joseph Balderes missing

29:58

persons case throughout the next part. You're

30:00

heading back up there right to

30:02

continue to do more research. Mm-hmm

30:05

Yes, a lot of people

30:08

we've already talked to there are

30:10

some individuals that we have

30:14

not yet Had

30:16

the face-to-face that we need to have

30:19

and a few other people we need to see in person

30:21

that Want to offer us information

30:24

in that way. And so we're

30:26

going back there to do that and

30:28

and really try

30:30

to Tie

30:33

up loose ends and put

30:35

the pressure on the individuals

30:37

we think are likely involved

30:39

and put them on the spot a little bit

30:42

and try to

30:44

get people talking and

30:46

that is easier to do

30:48

when you're At

30:50

their doorstep and you know instead

30:53

of calling from a number that they're just going to not

30:55

answer or hang up on you So

30:58

what has been the most challenging part of making

31:00

this season of the show? Is it the logistics

31:02

or is there another element? The

31:05

logistics has been challenging doing

31:09

12 plus hours of traveling to

31:13

get anywhere multiple flights

31:15

cars all that stuff It's

31:18

it could be exhausting and it feels like once

31:20

you finally touched down that you've done work But

31:23

you've done nothing yours. It's the same thing

31:25

as you being at your house Except

31:27

you're not you're here. So you still have

31:29

to go do everything so that that is

31:33

has always been a challenge in that

31:35

way just because you know, it can

31:37

be draining to Do

31:39

that much moving around and

31:41

just with a small town. It's it's hard.

31:43

It's harder to navigate the intricacies

31:46

of the

31:49

local relationships and the politics and

31:52

You know the rumor mill and being

31:55

careful of what we say And

31:57

that going over here and I

31:59

think most which is just in

32:02

every missing person's case that

32:04

we've investigated. It's just heavy

32:06

material. It's heavy real life.

32:09

Hearing it in the podcast

32:12

or watching it on Netflix

32:14

is just a

32:17

tiny little teaspoon

32:19

of what it

32:22

is really like to talk

32:24

to people in real life

32:27

about something tragic like this and

32:30

being in a

32:32

position where you're trying to

32:35

generate new information and

32:37

talking to a lot of people

32:40

who may not want to talk to you at all. So

32:43

just feeling that resistance, feeling

32:45

that sort of responsibility, feeling

32:48

the heartache

32:51

from everybody around you and

32:54

wanting to be able to offer some glimmer

32:56

of hope and trying

32:59

to use that to empower

33:01

what we're doing instead of slow us

33:03

down. But it's real

33:06

life and there

33:08

are people that text

33:10

me every day.

33:13

It's always happening. It

33:16

didn't ever stop. It never stops. That's

33:20

just always a challenge

33:22

in itself. Just unpacking

33:25

all this stuff and having

33:27

people open up about something that

33:30

was really tragic and an open

33:33

wound. That's always

33:36

probably the most difficult part

33:38

next to knock on the

33:41

bad guys door, which is not always

33:43

as fun either. But there's a little

33:45

bit more of an

33:47

empowerment you can have in those moments and

33:49

they're fewer and far between. So

33:53

how do you take care of yourself when you're

33:55

on the road and you're in these extreme situations,

33:57

you're dealing with a lot of emotions of other

33:59

people? Do you have a process

34:01

for self-care or do you just go all

34:03

in and then when you're finished and you

34:05

wrap and you come back home, you sleep

34:08

for three days or what's your process? It's

34:10

a lot of going all in. Sometimes

34:13

we factor in days where there's no way

34:15

that we'll be able to be doing this

34:18

on day four. We're going to be completely

34:20

gassed. We try to forecast that.

34:22

So in those moments, it's like we're going

34:24

to order the most baller Uber eats. We

34:26

can get pig out

34:29

or Netflix

34:31

day on the couch or who's going

34:34

to the liquor store and making

34:38

cocktails for us, whatever it is. But

34:41

really it's mostly when you're there, you're

34:44

in it and you're maximizing time. It's

34:48

really when you get back to your

34:50

own home and where

34:53

we make this podcast that you

34:56

can reflect and see and hear

34:58

things differently and objectively being out

35:01

of those elements. But when you're

35:03

in them, you're just in capture

35:06

mode. You're in go, go, go.

35:10

Make that extra step, make that

35:12

extra call and try

35:14

not to think too much about how

35:16

tired you are because eventually you'll be back.

35:19

But that's all to really maximize

35:21

your time and make it worth

35:23

it and do the most you can when you have the

35:25

opportunity to. Yeah, absolutely. What's

35:28

been the most rewarding part of working on this season

35:30

of the show for you? I

35:33

think the most rewarding part of working on this show

35:35

has been establishing really

35:38

true real

35:41

meaningful relationships with the families

35:43

and even being able

35:45

to have funny silly conversations about

35:48

stuff and just being able

35:50

to have open

35:52

talks and open

35:54

lines of communication and understanding

35:58

amongst each other. that

36:00

just feels really special and rewarding

36:02

and they're also super appreciative and

36:04

we're also super appreciative that they

36:07

even trust us with this at all, right?

36:10

That makes me feel good and better and

36:12

everyone else and makes us feel a little

36:14

bit more confident when it is confusing and

36:16

you feel like you're out of your element.

36:19

And so that to me has been probably

36:21

the most rewarding part of this and

36:23

it's just refreshing and it's cool that we

36:26

can just, we have this collective

36:28

goal together and it's real,

36:30

right? Like it's a podcast for every

36:32

listener but this is a collective

36:35

goal we have outside of

36:37

any audio you hear. That is

36:40

really cool to me. Right.

36:43

So who do you think most needs to

36:46

hear this show and especially this season? The

36:49

suspects. Yeah. In

36:51

terms of wanting these

36:54

cases solved, I think the people

36:56

who know the individuals who

36:58

are responsible, the people who have that

37:00

little nugget of information, the people who

37:02

think they know somebody who knows

37:04

it, I think those people need

37:07

to hear it the most because I

37:10

think that leads to potential

37:13

new information or somebody slipping

37:15

up or somebody confessing or

37:18

somebody acting out in some way

37:20

that results in some sort of

37:22

new action that exposes something. And

37:24

then right next to that, it's the

37:26

local community knowing

37:28

that these stories, these

37:32

cases, these people, their

37:34

disappearances have not been forgotten.

37:37

And even though your

37:40

local law enforcement sucks, there's

37:44

other people out there and I don't mean just

37:46

me and us, other listeners, people

37:48

out there who care about

37:51

this issue and also want that

37:53

to change. We can't

37:55

necessarily go in there and reconstruct

37:57

this ourselves right now, highlight

38:00

these issues and create

38:04

enough interest and expose

38:06

a big enough problem to where

38:08

the people who have that power

38:10

can step in and do something.

38:12

And I think that just even

38:15

the support of a casual

38:17

listener is important and the

38:19

family is knowing that people care, locals

38:22

knowing that other

38:24

people care and that maybe this

38:27

won't be like this forever, right? Like that glimmer

38:30

of hope that, hey, like you have a

38:33

lot of people here who are

38:35

right here with you,

38:37

who feel the same way, who agree with you. So

38:40

if that's the case, I think this

38:42

eventually changes. The change

38:44

happening is a different, deeper,

38:47

multi-prong conversation. But

38:49

this is how it starts is,

38:52

okay, we have a problem that we've identified. We

38:54

have a lot of people who agree with that.

38:57

What do you do? What can you do to

39:00

change the way things are? And

39:03

that's also, I mean, I say that now

39:05

also as a, if you're one

39:07

of those people who can, then let's

39:09

do it. Let's go. Start taking action. And I

39:11

think that is super valuable

39:18

and just the community

39:21

support and just listeners together

39:23

all giving a shit about

39:26

something they didn't know

39:28

about before. And I think that

39:30

means a lot to the people and

39:32

families affected by this. Right.

39:35

I imagine also for

39:37

the families, there's a

39:39

community, have you witnessed a community kind of come

39:41

forward of people who've had, who've

39:45

lost family members who have missing family

39:47

members, like do they form a community

39:49

and kind of create more of a

39:51

resource for one another? Have you seen any kind

39:53

of exchanges in that way of people

39:56

sharing information and resources and getting

39:58

things done? behind the

40:00

scenes, I guess? Yeah, I

40:02

mean, in both cases, there

40:05

have been people in...there's people in

40:07

both families, Florence

40:09

and Joseph, who have

40:13

band together and have been

40:15

the people on the ground doing

40:17

all the work, actively

40:19

investigating, making calls, recording

40:22

stuff, putting pressure on

40:24

people. They've been doing

40:26

that since day one. They've had a lot

40:28

more challenges because they also are

40:30

dealing with the fact

40:32

that anything they say and do out

40:35

in the open may potentially

40:37

impact their life where

40:39

they live because it's a small place. And

40:42

I think that us being

40:44

there and telling

40:47

this story on a bigger

40:49

scale has, for some people, made

40:51

them a little more confident in being able to

40:55

talk more openly and feeling like

40:58

it's not just their

41:00

responsibility. We

41:03

can help each other. I think

41:06

that's what I've witnessed is people

41:09

who locally who

41:11

now feel more confident in saying the

41:13

things that they know, even

41:15

amongst themselves, and not feeling

41:19

as scared sometimes or as

41:21

hesitant because the people that

41:23

you're likely afraid of, we

41:25

called them out for you. Some of them. And

41:29

they're aware of that. And

41:32

if they continue to give you

41:34

shit, then we're

41:36

going to tell everybody that they're doing that.

41:38

And so I think that level

41:40

of accountability that we can

41:43

bring is also a little

41:45

bit more reassurance in that it's

41:48

okay to keep fighting and

41:51

hopefully in some instances, a boost of confidence

41:54

that there's

41:56

more people who care now. And

41:59

it's... it's a little bit safer now to go

42:01

at this and

42:04

we're gonna continue to expose all

42:07

the negative things that occur here that

42:09

have hindered them

42:12

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44:41

Podcast. You

44:46

already touched a little bit on some

44:48

previews, but what can we expect from

44:50

the next installment coming in June? In

44:52

the next installment, you're going to hear a

44:56

lot of interviews with different

44:59

persons of interest, and we

45:02

are fortunate enough to have the

45:04

ability to go back in time

45:07

thanks to a lot of

45:09

the hard work put in by the private

45:11

investigator, Annie Clamsor and other

45:13

private investigators, who

45:15

have gone and

45:18

eight years ago went

45:20

and did audio video recordings

45:23

with individuals that really

45:26

capture a moment in

45:28

time and are a locked-in

45:32

story that they've said, and we

45:34

have the ability now to hear

45:37

all this stuff and we'll play it for you and

45:40

compare it to what they're saying now

45:42

and be able to really dig

45:44

into an unlike

45:47

Florence's case, a massive,

45:49

massive case file that

45:51

has been put together through the

45:53

family and the private investigators and

45:57

add to that and compare.

46:00

how what was being said then

46:02

and now and much

46:04

more easily find

46:07

where somebody may be lying

46:09

or that thing that everyone always thought

46:12

was a little weird and suspicious well

46:14

it definitely is because you never heard

46:16

this and it'll be

46:18

a lot of that and a

46:20

lot more active investigating and

46:23

the same with with Florence's case and

46:25

one of the other reasons that we

46:28

chose to do the break is

46:30

that you know going in episode one

46:32

of the first part that was

46:35

the first time we announced this

46:37

podcast once we did that everyone

46:40

in the community and people

46:43

who are a part of this

46:45

these cases they know that now

46:47

so the landscape is different and

46:49

now we're getting tons of emails

46:51

calls Facebook messages you name it

46:54

from people who have been prompted by

46:56

what they've heard and

46:59

now feel confident to

47:01

come forward or realizing

47:03

that this little piece of information

47:05

they had was worth

47:07

something and so we're

47:09

now sort of in

47:11

part to fielding what's

47:14

happened post the first eight

47:16

episodes and as

47:19

a result of the podcast

47:21

being out at all new

47:23

information and leads and interviews that

47:25

have stemmed from that amazing

47:29

I can't wait I have so many

47:31

specific questions that I won't get into because I know

47:33

they're gonna show up in the first couple episodes of

47:35

the next season so I will just wait like everyone

47:37

else can you share

47:39

with our listeners what else is on the horizon

47:42

in the future coming from the up and vanish

47:44

team I

47:46

know that everyone's waiting till June for

47:48

the next installment of eight episodes which

47:51

is coming sooner than you think it's time

47:54

flies but in the meantime the

47:57

same up and vanish team has

47:59

been working on another case in another

48:01

podcast that's coming out April 17th.

48:04

It's called Status Untraced. It's

48:07

a very bizarre, sad,

48:10

interesting story about someone

48:12

who was traveling abroad and went missing and

48:14

a lot of suspicious

48:16

circumstances there. And it's

48:19

a deep dive investigative show put

48:21

together by the same producers of Up and

48:23

Vanished. And it comes out April

48:26

17th. I

48:28

will play you a trailer for it right now. One

48:31

guy, he went missing for 30 years.

48:34

While he was hiding, he said, while

48:36

he disappeared, nobody knows.

48:40

At the northern edge of India, attracting

48:42

thousands of tourists every year, is the

48:45

Parvati Valley. Many

48:47

come for the beauty of the Himalayas, others

48:49

to party. But then there

48:51

are some, drawn in search of enlightenment. And

48:54

this place changes them. There are

48:57

stories in that part of the world where

48:59

they'll say like, oh, the person didn't come

49:01

back because they didn't want to come back.

49:03

Just to create a story and a scene,

49:05

he threw all this stuff along the river

49:07

and then he just vanished. The

49:10

phenomenon, called India Syndrome, could

49:12

be chalked up to the valley's spiritual allure.

49:15

But something else is going on here. There's

49:18

a string of disappearances, many

49:20

foreigners, and nearly all of

49:22

the cases unsolved. Bruno

49:24

Moshali, at Polish National, is

49:26

missing. Aldeta Houghton, 24, from Canberra,

49:29

is missing. Were mercilessly beaten to

49:31

death, said he befriended a baba.

49:33

Shortly after, Ian disappeared.

49:35

That valley is beautiful and enchanting,

49:38

but it's very dangerous. Nefarious

49:40

things happen there. I

49:43

fell upon one of these cases, of an

49:46

American world traveler gone missing. The

49:48

circumstances of his disappearance were

49:50

suspicious. So I flew halfway

49:52

around the world in search of answers. And

49:55

what I found, I could have never

49:57

imagined. guru,

50:00

he knew the time he got

50:02

nude. The guy getting hung out

50:04

of nowhere makes you go, there's

50:06

something else. You think he's like

50:08

robbing them and then taking the

50:11

stuff? He's basically mugging. A

50:15

new investigative podcast from the team behind Up

50:17

and Vanished. This is Status

50:20

Untraced, coming April

50:22

17th on Apple Podcasts or wherever you

50:24

get your podcasts. Jane,

50:29

thank you so much for your time. I,

50:31

like everyone else listening, cannot wait for

50:33

the next installment to come out of June. This

50:36

is an ongoing real-time investigation, so if

50:39

you have any information about either of

50:41

these cases, please reach out to the

50:43

show. Up

50:50

and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is

50:52

a production of Tenderfoot TV in association

50:54

with Odyssey. Your host is

50:57

Payne Lindsey. The show is written by

50:59

Payne Lindsey with additional assistance from Mike

51:01

Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and

51:04

Payne Lindsey. Lead producer is Mike

51:06

Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington

51:08

and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike

51:10

Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional

51:13

editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer

51:15

is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by

51:17

Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kniek Glenn, and

51:19

Eric Cantana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan.

51:22

Original music and makeup and vanity

51:24

set. Mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner.

51:26

Thank you to Orin Rosenbaum and the

51:28

team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing,

51:30

and the Nord Group. Special thanks to

51:32

all of the families and community members

51:34

of the team. Additional information

51:36

and resources can be found in our

51:39

show notes. For more podcasts like Up

51:41

and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your

51:43

favorite podcast app or visit

51:45

us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.

51:56

A new true crime podcast from the team behind

51:58

Up and Vanished. In

52:01

2016, Justin Alexander, an adventurer, was invited

52:03

on a trek by an Indian holy

52:05

man. They headed to

52:07

a spiritual ground in the Himalayan Mountains, a

52:10

place beyond civilization. The

52:13

holy man returned and said nothing, but

52:15

Justin was never seen again. What

52:18

happened to him? Dive deep

52:20

into our investigation and uncover the strange

52:23

events surrounding Justin's disappearance, in

52:25

status untraced. Check

52:27

out this sneak preview. And

52:30

this last experience he had

52:32

with Ralog. I didn't feel

52:34

good about it. In fact, I felt it

52:36

was dangerous. I

52:39

sound strange, but I

52:41

just in my mother's heart, something

52:44

was not okay. I felt

52:46

that he was a nefarious character. Status

52:48

Untraced is coming on April 17th. Listen

52:51

for free on Apple Podcasts or wherever you

52:53

get your podcasts.