0:06

I felt like when I walked away from

0:08

my appointment, for the first time

0:10

I felt different. I wasn't

0:13

an unsuccessful

0:15

struggling typical person. I was

0:17

a very successful neurodivergent person.

0:20

Welcome back to until it's fixed, where we explore

0:23

new ideas and work underway to make

0:25

healthcare simpler and more effective for

0:27

everyone. I'm your host, Cali Chamberlain.

0:29

And I'm

0:30

Dr. Kenny Pool.

0:34

Welcome back everyone. In this episode, we're

0:36

talking about neurodivergence. What

0:38

that means, what it affects, and

0:40

what complicates our discussions. So,

0:42

Kenny, I'm sure you've seen tons of people

0:44

talking about this topic of neurodiversity and

0:47

neurodivergence.

0:48

For me, I mean, it raised questions of exactly

0:51

what is neurodiversity. And so --

0:53

Yeah. -- when we think about what neurodiversity

0:55

is, I think just refers

0:58

to the range

1:00

or the diversity that we have

1:02

as individuals pertaining to our brain

1:04

function are different behavioral traits.

1:07

Right? Like, just the differences in the way in

1:09

which people interact with the world. Mhmm.

1:12

And as more people are diagnosed, and

1:14

we search to widen the criteria and understanding

1:16

of what these topics are, the more

1:19

we have been able to research and understand

1:21

what it means to live with these different conditions.

1:24

Our understanding of course has

1:26

evolved a lot over the years. And for me, that's

1:28

particularly been on TikTok where I've seen so

1:30

many different people speak about their experiences

1:33

being neurodiverse and their

1:35

diagnosis and what that has meant for them

1:37

and how it has changed their life in the different things

1:39

that they have modified to accommodate their

1:41

own thinking processes. And

1:44

the introduction of this topic basically just

1:47

presents an opportunity for us to talk about the

1:49

ways in which our brains are currently right. Yeah.

1:51

So I think this conversation, it's really

1:53

nuanced, but I appreciate

1:55

that it is more expansive than maybe it has

1:57

been in the past where we've only thought

2:00

about neurodivergence and neurodiversity as

2:02

something related to specific disorders that

2:04

we could put our finger on and

2:05

define. I think you hit the nail on

2:07

the head with the Nuance piece. And that's

2:09

what makes this really intriguing and

2:12

interesting because it's

2:14

difficult to figure out

2:16

where we draw the line between what's

2:18

normal and what's abnormal, what's

2:20

difficulty in terms of normal difficulty,

2:23

and what's difficulty in terms of

2:25

someone who needs an accommodation. Right.

2:27

So I'm interested to talk to our

2:29

guest today to learn more

2:31

about this topic.

2:32

Yes, me too. To help us learn

2:35

more about neurodiversions and to answer some of these

2:37

questions that Kenny and I are talking

2:39

about, we talk to two amazing guests. The first is

2:41

Amy Root, the director of neurodiversity inclusion

2:43

at UnitedHealth Group, and the second

2:45

is Casey Davis, who is a licensed

2:48

professional counselor and author of the Amazon

2:50

Best seller how to keep household

2:52

drowning. She's also the creator of the mental

2:54

health platform and podcast struggle care.

2:56

Let's listen in.

3:02

So to start off, I'd love to hear just a little bit

3:05

about your connections to neurodivergence, both

3:07

professionally and

3:08

personally. As you feel comfortable sharing.

3:10

Amy, let's hear from you first. Sure.

3:12

My name is Amy Root, and I

3:15

am multiples neurodivergent and

3:17

really what that means is my brain is very

3:19

different. I'm autistic and I have

3:21

ADHD, also dysgraphia

3:24

and kind of a lot of other things,

3:26

quite frankly, that I don't have really names for,

3:28

but my brain is just different. And I've always known

3:31

that, but I was diagnosed later

3:33

in life in my late thirties after my oldest

3:35

child was identified and diagnosed.

3:38

And so that's my connection personally.

3:41

And professionally, I'm the director of neurodiversity

3:43

inclusion. For Optum. So

3:46

I do this for a living and I

3:48

I get to share and advance diversity

3:51

equity and inclusion with this lens

3:53

of neurodiversity.

3:54

Great. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, then

3:57

Casey. So my Alphabet

3:59

Soup is I

4:01

have a late diagnosis ADHD that

4:03

I got in my thirties. As a child,

4:06

I was diagnosed with auditory

4:08

processing disorder, dyslexia, dysgraphia,

4:12

all sorts of fun things. And then

4:14

also had a substance use disorder when I was

4:17

about sixteen, which we now believe

4:19

to be related to my multiple. Neurodivergences.

4:22

And probably is a neurodivergence in

4:24

and of itself, which kind of runs in my family.

4:27

So that's me personally. Professionally, I'm

4:29

a licensed professional counselor, and

4:32

I worked in addiction most of my career

4:34

up until probably about four years ago.

4:37

When I sort of accidentally fell into

4:40

a large TikTok falling,

4:43

where I talk about the intersection

4:45

between mental health and neurodivergence and

4:49

life skills. I

4:51

guess, like keeping house I mean, just

4:53

like the basics of laundry dishes,

4:56

cleaning, and those things are particularly

4:58

really difficult for people who are neuro divergent.

5:01

Or people who are under stress or

5:03

chronically ill. And so I sort of

5:05

talk about those various subjects

5:08

and ways that we can make

5:11

our homes and our systems work for

5:13

our brains and bodies and not against our brains

5:15

and bodies. How would you

5:17

all define neurodiversity? So

5:20

you know, again, this is something that's being

5:22

talked to lot about now, but

5:24

it's hard to get good clear

5:27

definitions for this dependent upon

5:29

who you ask and what source you go to?

5:32

So there's an interesting way to think

5:34

about neurodiversity. And

5:36

I think sometimes when we talk about

5:38

it, we can accidentally make it

5:41

seem like there are two groups

5:43

of people in the world that there's

5:45

this really hard and stink line

5:47

where there's this group of people that are neurotypical,

5:50

and then there's this group of people that are

5:52

neurodivergent. Mhmm. And Well,

5:56

it is true that there

5:58

are various sort of disorders

6:00

and things that are considered

6:02

neurodivergent that absolutely diverged

6:04

from what's considered typical. I

6:07

think it's more appropriate to talk about what's

6:09

considered typical rather than

6:11

like a person who's typical.

6:13

And the way that I think about it, that I think is

6:15

easiest, is that, you know,

6:18

neurodiversity isn't about

6:20

what side of the line you're on. It's about the idea

6:22

that within the human experience, there

6:24

are diverse ways for

6:26

brains to work and operate. And

6:29

so if you think about anyone's ever

6:31

had a child, and you kinda learn about, like,

6:33

the milestones. Like, oh, a

6:35

child should be walking at

6:37

between, you know, a year and months.

6:39

Well, if you look at that, what they're

6:41

saying is that a typical

6:44

child, a typical development, is

6:46

between twelve and fifteen. But even within

6:48

that, like, there's a span. Right? Some

6:50

will walk at nine months, some will

6:52

walk at eighteen months for

6:55

no other reason other than kids are just different

6:57

and they develop differently. So

6:59

even within quote unquote typical

7:01

development, there's a range

7:04

and a difference in a diversity in

7:06

the way people develop. But when we talk

7:08

about someone being neuro divergent, typically

7:10

what we're talking about is, okay, this child

7:12

is now kind of way outside of what we

7:14

typically see as the range of diversity.

7:17

And so it's sort of

7:19

nuanced to say there's no hard line,

7:22

but also there are definitely people

7:25

that are falling kind of even outside

7:27

of what we see diversity in typical

7:29

presentations. So I don't know

7:31

if that makes sense. It's sort of a nuance thing

7:34

to describe. It

7:34

does. It does. Thank you for that. Amy,

7:36

how would you define it? Well,

7:38

neurodiversity, I think it's very simple.

7:41

It just simply means brain differences.

7:44

And so that's a biological fact that

7:46

we know that within humans, we have

7:48

variation in our brains, in

7:50

the structure, in functioning And so

7:52

neurodiversity is all of us. That

7:54

includes all of us. And then there's

7:57

different terminologies based on different

7:59

subsets in groups, but I

8:01

always you

8:02

know, champion and talk about neurodiversity is

8:04

all of us.

8:05

Yeah. Yeah. Thank

8:07

you both for helping us understand what these terms

8:09

mean. Neurodiversity seems to be really

8:11

big topic though conversation right

8:12

now, especially in the news and on social

8:14

media. Why do you think that is?

8:17

think that's right. I think it's a really siding time

8:19

and there's a couple of things that I think

8:21

why, that it's such a big topic

8:23

right now. I think about advances

8:26

in research that we're starting to see

8:28

in neuroscience and even genetics that's

8:31

leading us to a greater understanding that

8:33

we really do have neurological differences

8:36

and that that is natural and valuable. I

8:39

also think about increased advocacy

8:41

and activism. I love seeing

8:43

the rise of self advocates. And

8:46

like you're talking about earlier Casey, it's

8:48

like going on to social media and all

8:50

the different platforms, it's fascinating

8:53

to see people sharing their stories and advocating

8:55

for themselves and talking about their

8:58

strengths and abilities. So we're seeing

9:00

this from a new lens now. I

9:02

think there's an increased prevalence too.

9:04

There's a growing understanding and

9:06

ability to seek diagnosis and

9:08

treatment for things. And then there's

9:10

just all of these changing attitudes

9:13

and beliefs. I think that is what

9:15

is causing

9:15

arise. What do you think, Casey? Well,

9:18

I think particularly when I think of

9:20

autism, you know, the first person

9:22

to ever be diagnosed autistic is still

9:25

alive. So, like, this is a very

9:27

recent sort of understanding in

9:29

psychology. And I think what

9:32

we're finding is that the

9:34

sort of first few waves

9:36

of children that were diagnosed

9:39

autistic are now adults. And

9:41

for the first time, we

9:43

have adult autistic generations

9:45

talking about their experience and what

9:48

it's like to be inside their brains and how

9:50

they experience the world. And

9:52

so especially with kind of the rise of

9:54

social media and TikTok. So we're hearing

9:56

firsthand accounts. And

9:59

I think as opposed to in the past where

10:01

we may have only heard third

10:03

hand clinical accounts, like, well, here's

10:05

the criteria. Here's what it looks like,

10:07

which tended to focus on

10:10

a very externalized, symptomatic,

10:13

you know, whether it's ADHD autism.

10:15

Right? Like, it was usually young,

10:18

boys. And now

10:20

we're listening to adults and

10:22

people are going, wait a second. The

10:24

way they describe that perfectly

10:27

describes my inner world, my inner

10:29

experience. And,

10:31

you know, I didn't have a diagnosis, but now I'm

10:33

looking back at my life, and I always known

10:35

I was different and I have these differences

10:37

and these differences. And I have to

10:39

say that that I think is revolutionizing the

10:43

world of psychology in a way we don't even

10:45

appreciate. And the example that I always

10:47

give is my own daughter, we

10:49

recognized when she was fifteen months old,

10:51

that she is autistic. Mhmm. And

10:54

she is very low support

10:56

needs. And it's extremely uncommon

10:59

to identify a child that

11:02

young, particularly a girl. And

11:04

the reason was because if

11:06

you looked at looks like if

11:08

you googled toddlers and autistic

11:10

OPTUM. You would get a pretty stereotypical

11:13

list, and it's accurate. Right? But

11:15

she wasn't showing any of that. But

11:17

I had listened and been exposed

11:19

to so many adult optistics talking

11:22

about the way they saw the world and experienced

11:24

the world. That I began to

11:26

identify, I think that's

11:28

how she's experiencing the world. I can't

11:30

necessarily point to a specific There's

11:33

a couple of behaviors, but I see

11:35

this

11:36

difference. Mhmm. And it lines up with

11:38

people describing their experiences. And

11:40

I think that that's the phenomenon that is

11:42

starting to sort of creep its way in.

11:45

So interesting because what I'm hearing you say

11:47

is that there's just more texture

11:49

Like, we're having lived experiences as data points

11:51

when maybe that had not been a part of the conversation

11:54

before. And I think that's a really

11:56

fascinating place for us to be in

11:58

this moment in time. Yeah.

12:00

So with that said, how

12:03

do we get people to really

12:06

recognize the spectrum

12:09

of no divergence? Well,

12:12

I think it's definitely the advocacy

12:14

that we do. Okay. Whether it's

12:16

talking about it, talking to workplaces about

12:19

it. And I also think that, like

12:21

for me, There's this great

12:23

TED talk. It's a TEDx talk called your

12:26

autistic child can have a great life. Mhmm.

12:28

And it's given by an autistic woman.

12:31

And I think for me, one of the reasons

12:33

why I wasn't as frightened when

12:35

we were exploring this diagnosis for

12:37

one of my own kids is because I

12:39

had seen happy

12:42

autistic adults. Like

12:44

they're, I think, giving more platform

12:47

two adults that are neurodivergent. Right?

12:50

And I think I would hope that maybe

12:52

a parent would feel the same way if they're going through an

12:55

ADHD diagnosis and go man, but

12:57

Casey Davis has ADHD and, like, she

12:59

is happy and she has a job and she's successful

13:01

and she has been able to sort

13:03

of create a life that is meaningful

13:06

for her. And I think when we

13:08

platform adults

13:11

and first hand experiences, the

13:13

world becomes more accepting and sees

13:15

people as human and becomes

13:18

less frightened of their children possibly

13:20

having a disorder that's considered

13:22

neurodivergent.

13:23

And I had a very different experience when

13:25

my daughter was diagnosed. I

13:27

really didn't know much at all,

13:29

to be honest, I had a very stereotypical

13:32

understanding of what autism was,

13:34

and I left that appointment with

13:36

a little pamphlet that took me to a web

13:38

sight that is filled with language

13:40

that is very disparaging and puts

13:43

us in the light of now you have a

13:45

burden the rest of your life you get to raise.

13:47

I mean, really, that's what it was. And

13:49

I was very scared and it felt

13:51

deeply wrong. Like, I felt

13:53

like they weren't even acknowledging her her

13:55

humanity. And that's when I went

13:57

and sought out autistic adults

13:59

to hear because I knew my child

14:01

wasn't what, you know, the information

14:04

packet that I was given. And that's when

14:06

I found my community, and then I had identified

14:08

so deeply with it. And then I knew, these

14:10

are my people. Like, this is her

14:13

experience is very similar to mine and

14:15

So I'm glad that there are people out there

14:17

sharing their experiences for parents

14:19

and others who are really exploring this

14:21

because the information from the more medical

14:24

model is really not a great

14:26

story. It's not something that you should really

14:28

hear firsthand the first time that

14:31

you experience that.

14:32

It's making me think about the gap then,

14:34

right, between, like, a medical understanding

14:37

of what is happening. And then, like, you're talking

14:39

about KC seeing people on TikTok. Having

14:41

more, like, first person driven

14:43

narrative around what the experience is.

14:46

Can we have a conversation about

14:48

people being misdiagnosed? And

14:50

self

14:51

diagnosing, what are your thoughts

14:53

on that? As far as

14:55

misdiagnosing, it's really

14:57

common for girls

15:00

with ADHD to have

15:02

more internalizing difficulties and

15:05

boys who have externalizing difficulties, and

15:07

that's a generalization, not universalism. Right?

15:10

But with boys, when you see, especially with

15:12

the hyperactivity, And so

15:14

they are more likely to be

15:17

misdiagnosed with things like conduct disorders.

15:19

But they're also more likely we identified

15:21

as ADHD because they're the boy bouncing

15:23

off the walls. They're the boy throwing spitballs.

15:26

Right? They're the boy that is being

15:28

loud and disrupting class. And

15:30

you sort of have this squeaky wheel gets

15:32

the oil situation where the

15:34

the little boy who is disruptive

15:37

is sort of identified early. And

15:40

girls with ADHD tend

15:42

to develop more internalizing issues.

15:45

So things like anxiety, depression.

15:48

And my own experience was really

15:50

interesting because I never

15:52

had trouble paying attention in school.

15:55

And then I would ace every test

15:57

quickly, but I never did homework

16:00

ever. Mhmm. I forgot that homework

16:02

existed the moment I walked out the door. And so

16:04

I'm talking to my psychiatrist in the middle of this diagnosis

16:07

journey. And I kind of said one of

16:09

the reasons I think that I can't be ADHD is because

16:11

I was I did really well in school until the addiction

16:13

hit And she said that that

16:16

is one of the ways that girls get

16:18

missed because ADHD is

16:20

not a problem with

16:22

paying attention. It is not a problem

16:25

with attention. It is a it is an

16:27

issue with regulating your

16:29

attention. So that's

16:31

why kids with ADHD, if they're interested

16:33

in something, they can hyperfixate on

16:36

that thing for hours to the exclusion

16:38

of hearing anything else. And so

16:40

I was so interested in learning

16:43

that you didn't see any hyperactivity, you didn't

16:45

see any distraction, but what you saw

16:48

was a working memory so

16:50

poor and an inability to

16:52

create structure outside the classroom that

16:54

once I walked out the door, no homework

16:56

got done. It's interesting

16:59

to look at how ADHD

17:01

girls are more social. They

17:04

are gonna be more compliant. They are

17:06

more likely to be inattentive but not

17:08

be distracting to a classroom. And

17:11

if you are gifted, you are more

17:13

likely to be excelling in

17:15

school. But really be

17:17

struggling in other areas that aren't quite

17:19

as identified. And I

17:21

was misdiagnosed, under diagnosed,

17:24

delayed diagnosis. I mean, all of that,

17:27

my story is for thirty years I had

17:29

been to therapist. I mean, like, I am

17:31

up Once a week for my entire

17:33

life, I've always gone to provider's therapist

17:36

and it was never identified that I was

17:38

autistic or ADHD. I

17:40

had anxiety, and I think some

17:42

of it was the language that I was using.

17:45

I kept saying overwhelmed. I now

17:47

know that's a sensory overwhelm. I'm

17:49

highly sensitive to my environments, moods

17:52

of other people. It feels like

17:54

my nerves are on my skin and you

17:56

know, I would fall apart and it would look on

17:59

the outside just standard anxiety, but

18:01

that was a perfect presentation of

18:03

my autism and ADHD. I

18:05

didn't know how to communicate it. They didn't

18:07

catch it. And that can be incredibly

18:10

detrimental to the health of an

18:12

individual. I had been on lots of

18:14

different medications and treatment plans that were

18:16

ineffective for me. And had

18:18

I known earlier, I think

18:20

life would be very different. I would have

18:22

different opportunities. I wouldn't have lost relationships

18:25

without knowing why. I wouldn't have failed

18:27

in areas that maybe I could have better equipped

18:29

myself had I

18:30

known. So I think that that's a really important

18:32

piece. Mhmm. I have to

18:35

piggyback on that because I was also

18:37

saying I'm overwhelmed. But

18:39

what I meant is

18:41

I'm having trouble.

18:44

I'm looking at this thing I need to do.

18:46

And there's so many steps.

18:49

That I can't seem to wrap my head around which

18:51

step I should do first, and

18:54

I can't seem to transition between the

18:56

steps quickly, and I'm having this, like, cognitive

18:58

traffic jam. And and

19:00

I think it's really interesting to illustrate how,

19:03

you know, a client could be saying that

19:05

words and the provider thinks they

19:07

know what they're describing. But

19:09

in reality, we're describing two completely

19:11

different scenarios. Same thing with motivation.

19:13

I would talk about not being motivated. Which

19:15

gets attributed to depression a lot of the time

19:17

or low self esteem. And then as

19:20

an adult, I realized, I'm not actually

19:22

talking about not being motivated I'm talking

19:24

about problems with task initiation --

19:26

Mhmm. -- which is executive functioning issues

19:28

related to my ADHD. And

19:30

I think this kind of goes hand in hand with talking

19:32

about first person stories and the importance of

19:34

that is that if you're a provider who

19:37

goes through school and I was trained on the

19:39

criteria Right? And I'm going,

19:41

okay. Has trouble paying attention? Check

19:44

mark? Or like, oh, no. She's paying attention fine just

19:46

now. If you asked me, I remember going

19:48

through the ADHD self assessment

19:50

and one of the things was, you know, interrupts

19:53

a lot. There's like three social questions. Interrupts

19:55

a lot. Has trouble taking turns,

19:57

finishes other people sentences, things like that. And

19:59

I remember saying, I don't really

20:02

do that. But the

20:04

moment that someone began to unpack to me,

20:07

okay, so you're not doing the outside behavior but

20:09

what's going on in your head and learned

20:11

that I was institutionalized at sixteen

20:13

years old in inpatient treatment for eighteen

20:15

months into a heavy therapeutic

20:18

community high confrontation facility

20:21

and those behaviors of interrupting,

20:23

finishing people sentences, I was

20:25

told you are arrogant, you are entitled,

20:28

you will not get over your addiction until you become

20:31

humble. And I learned

20:33

through heavy psychological behavior

20:36

modification. To bite my

20:38

tongue, to not interrupt, to

20:40

wait and take turns, but nobody

20:42

ever took those extra steps to say, but

20:45

what's happening in your head when you're waiting to talk?

20:47

That's a really good point about not just observing

20:49

someone's behavior, but taking it into account,

20:52

what's going on in their brains too. And

20:54

if someone is interested in getting a diagnosis

20:56

either for themselves or loved one like a child,

20:59

how do you think that they would go about doing that?

21:02

So the answer is very different depending

21:04

on what kind of access you have. Like in our

21:06

country access to healthcare is absolutely

21:09

a privilege. It's not equal for everyone.

21:11

And so the answer of

21:13

Well, you just seek out a psychologist

21:16

that is well versed in neurodivergence,

21:19

in the neurodiversity movement, who understands

21:22

the differing presentations you

21:24

know, these these different disorders and

21:26

you go talk to them and you go through the structured

21:28

process. Like, that's the process. But

21:31

realistically, a lot of people can't

21:33

access that, whether they don't have financial

21:36

means, they don't have health insurance, they

21:38

live in a rural town and that person doesn't exist.

21:40

I mean, you know, they work three jobs. When are they

21:42

gonna go to the next town over and see someone?

21:45

So when we talk about sort

21:47

of self diagnosis. I think

21:49

it's important to look at sort

21:51

of two things happening with self diagnosis

21:55

is we want this self diagnosis

21:57

because we wanna know what's quote unquote

21:59

wrong with me and how can I fix it?

22:02

And then I also think that there's difference

22:05

between saying, you

22:07

know, I wanna know who

22:09

and what I am. So I know who

22:11

my community is I can access sort

22:14

of the services or the tips and

22:16

tricks that will apply to me. And

22:18

I think that in that case, you

22:20

know, it I'm for self diagnosis

22:23

because not everybody can access a formal diagnosis.

22:26

And if if tips are helping

22:28

you, if, you know, the ADHD

22:31

blog helps you. If

22:33

the way that autistic people are talking

22:35

about how they manage things is

22:37

helping you, it doesn't really matter

22:39

whether you quote unquote have the diagnosis.

22:42

Mhmm. I think the thing to look

22:44

out for is that there is a lot of misinformation

22:47

and overgeneralizing and sort of pathologizing

22:49

of normal human experiences sometimes.

22:53

And sometimes we feel so

22:57

broken and on the outside and we're looking

22:59

for an answer because we feel like if

23:01

we had an answer for how why

23:03

we feel this way. It would change something

23:05

about us. Mhmm. And

23:08

sometimes that's true and sometimes

23:10

it's not sometimes we are

23:13

you know, neurodivergent, not otherwise

23:15

specified, or just human

23:17

being with struggles not otherwise specified.

23:20

And I think it's important to recognize that

23:23

you don't have to have or fit a diagnosis

23:25

for your neurodivergence to be valid.

23:28

You don't have to be neurodivergent for

23:30

your struggles to be valid.

23:33

And so I think

23:35

that those are sort of important things to keep in mind.

23:37

So

23:37

so the labeling becomes less important.

23:40

And it's more so around the functioning.

23:43

And my follow-up to that

23:45

then is how does someone know

23:48

that they need help then? If

23:50

you're in

23:51

distress. Okay.

23:53

Period end of paragraph. You don't have

23:55

to meet some sort of burden of

23:58

disability to deserve

24:00

to reach out for help or services or accommodations

24:03

that can alleviate distress that you're feeling in

24:05

your life. Now, Getting

24:07

a formal diagnosis is

24:09

intensely helpful when you

24:11

need accommodations or rights

24:13

that are legally protected by law

24:16

because you may not otherwise be able to

24:18

access those services or accommodations at

24:20

school or in your workplace, things like that.

24:23

But when it comes to just sort of life

24:25

hacks, tips, and tricks, you know, ways that

24:27

people are sort of managing their own things,

24:29

like, if there's some way that people are

24:32

doing things that you are resonating

24:34

with and that's helping you if you wanna go see

24:36

a therapist, but you don't feel like you're allowed to unless

24:38

you're some sort of this

24:40

bad, that's not the

24:42

case.

24:44

And I think getting a diagnosis is

24:46

incredibly a personal decision and

24:48

it is, you know, just depends on the individual

24:51

circumstances, but there's several reasons

24:53

to seek a diagnosis if you can. think

24:55

it's to better help understand yourself

24:58

and it's validating can be incredibly

25:00

validating. I felt like when I

25:02

walked away from my appointment, for

25:04

the first time I felt different. It

25:06

was I wasn't an unsuccessful struggling

25:10

typical person. I was a very successful

25:12

neurodivergent person. And my entire

25:15

life and view changed. It

25:18

it also can give you access to support

25:20

and resources. And like you said, legal detections.

25:23

In some cases, having a formal diagnosis

25:25

can provide protections against discrimination

25:28

in education, employment, and other areas

25:31

But like you said, self diagnosis is

25:33

often valid. People are very

25:35

aware of their own issues that they

25:37

face and what they need to

25:39

be better supported. And like you said,

25:42

diagnosis is privilege, like

25:44

especially in this area because

25:46

We know that females are less likely to

25:48

be diagnosed as children. We know

25:51

black and brown children are more likely

25:53

to be falsely diagnosed with conduct

25:55

disorders. Instead of neurodivergence, and

25:58

diagnosis and treatment can be

26:00

incredibly costly and coverage is limited

26:02

or

26:03

nonexistent, especially for adults.

26:05

So there are a lot of barriers when it comes to

26:07

diagnosis. Yeah. I

26:09

think this conversation's also making me think about

26:12

just to the point about diagnosis or

26:14

not. Just more expansive ways to cope

26:16

and engage with the things that are happening in your life

26:18

and finding what fits for you. And I wanna

26:21

talk about what that could look like in an employment

26:23

setting So for employers who are

26:25

trying to support neurodivergent employees

26:28

from the hiring process and

26:29

beyond, what are some things that can be

26:31

really helpful? I

26:33

think what advice I would give is

26:36

to start now and know that you

26:38

already have a neurodiverse workforce. We're

26:40

talking about When we're considering neurodivergent

26:43

people, it's about twenty percent of the population

26:46

and probably more, especially because

26:48

neurodiversity is not a tool of exclusion,

26:50

it could be a lot more individuals, but

26:53

know that you already have neurodivergent workers.

26:56

And they might not think of themselves as being

26:58

disabled, but it is likely they will satisfy

27:00

the legal definition. So it means

27:02

that you have the responsibility to

27:05

make workplaces more accommodating and provide

27:08

July support. So I think training

27:10

and education is vitally important. Being

27:13

willing and offering flexible work

27:15

arrangements, I think is very important. Making

27:18

those physical modifications in your

27:20

environment, providing assistive

27:22

technologies, another really good thing

27:24

that they could start with now. Being

27:26

open to alternative methods of communication

27:29

for their employees. But more importantly,

27:31

just offering and allowing for

27:33

individualized accommodations.

27:35

So supporting, you know, the employee

27:38

in their development. Mhmm. And,

27:40

you know, we're pretty big in this

27:42

country about, like, paid sick days

27:44

or even unpaid sick days recognizing that

27:46

people get sick and they need to go to the doctor. And I think

27:48

bringing in more awareness of

27:51

mental health days talking

27:53

about, you know, does that person need

27:55

a Thursday afternoon off to go see a therapist?

27:58

Should we do four day work weeks? They

28:01

just had a big study, I believe,

28:04

might have been United Kingdom or Britain, where

28:06

they took a bunch of companies and did four

28:09

day workweeks. And they saw that

28:11

the amount of burnout was

28:13

decreased by seventy one percent that

28:16

productivity pretty much stayed the same or

28:18

went up, but the happiness of the people

28:20

that worked there, their work life balance, their

28:22

mental health all went

28:24

up. And I

28:27

think that that's something we should take into account

28:29

when designing the way that you do

28:32

your work hours and what you're requiring

28:34

of your employees.

28:36

Awesome. Thank you so much. We're gonna

28:38

move into the lightning round. So

28:40

it's gonna be

28:41

a quick overview of your personal

28:43

professional experiences based on the question. The

28:46

first question is what gives you hope? I

28:49

love seeing this younger generation

28:51

and how they're really embracing this

28:54

neurodivergence. And sharing their

28:56

stories whenever people feel safe

28:59

enough, even temporarily to

29:01

share their experiences that gives me so much

29:03

hope. Because without that, I

29:05

would be in a very different place. Again, I

29:07

did not know much until I started leaning

29:09

on the lived experiences

29:11

of neurodivergent people. So that

29:13

gives me hope. What gives me hope

29:15

is that the position that

29:17

Amy has. Like, the fact that there is

29:20

a position of

29:22

director of neurodiversity. Is that the correct

29:24

title? Right. Neurodiversity inclusion.

29:26

Right. Like, the fact that that exists

29:29

anywhere gives me hope.

29:31

And that it's by a neurodivergent person.

29:33

Right? Yes. That's I think important.

29:35

That we're seeing more and more people

29:39

who are talking and educating

29:41

about

29:41

neurodivergent? Who are themselves neurodivergent?

29:45

Was something new you've learned recently?

29:48

Neuroplasticity. I am fascinated

29:50

by the fact that not only, you

29:52

know, we think that our brains are set, but

29:54

how we experience the world and

29:57

when we grow and we learn that our

29:59

brains rewire. And that is

30:01

kind of at the core of neurodiversity too.

30:03

And so You think about trauma. You think about

30:05

all different kinds of experiences and what

30:08

that

30:08

means. But neuro neuroplasticity is

30:10

the jam right now for me.

30:12

In casey, what about you? So I

30:14

got my diagnosis after I had my second child,

30:16

and it seemed one of the reasons why I

30:18

resisted looking for that is because I thought,

30:20

well, don't know like these symptoms have

30:23

just started. And the truth is

30:25

that I'd had these symptoms my whole

30:27

life, but they had suddenly become much

30:29

more distressing and evident, come

30:32

to find out what I just learned is that

30:34

hormones can play a huge part

30:37

in people's symptoms

30:39

and in the expression of their symptoms and

30:41

the severity of their OPTUM. And so it's

30:43

really common to see women who

30:46

are postpartum, women who have just had

30:48

children, women who have gone through

30:50

menopause, you know, kids going through puberty,

30:52

when you have these big hormonal changes,

30:55

it's common to see either

30:58

reorganization or a new severity

31:00

level or a new type of expression

31:02

of ADHD OPTUM, and I assume

31:05

probably other neurodivergent diagnoses as

31:07

well. Who is someone

31:09

who's inspired you or had the biggest impact on

31:11

who you are today. There's

31:13

a coworker here at Optum. At

31:16

the time, it was really early in my

31:18

diagnosis and understanding and that

31:20

kind of unpacking and repacking my

31:22

whole life and understanding from

31:25

a new lens and he was already

31:27

an openly autistic leader in our organization

31:31

and came and partnered with me and really

31:33

helped me for years understand and kind

31:35

of maximize that, understand my drinks

31:37

and use it. And I if

31:39

I didn't have that kind of partnership, I

31:42

think I would be in a different place now. So

31:44

I think that that was really important for me to have

31:46

that kind of

31:47

mentor. Yeah. So

31:49

I've made two friends over

31:51

the past few years. One of them is

31:53

an autistic woman who runs an autism

31:56

advocacy organization that

31:58

also is a PhD candidate studying

32:00

autism The other one is a

32:02

psychologist who has ADHD that

32:05

treats ADHD and assesses ADHD

32:07

in children. Both of them have

32:09

been so in firing and helpful to me,

32:11

both in helping me to understand what

32:13

adult presentations in women

32:15

of these diagnoses look like.

32:18

And that's who they're treating and that's who they're advocating

32:21

for and they're both these really incredible

32:24

smart successful women

32:27

that have been vulnerable enough to

32:29

share the ways in which

32:31

they struggle to navigate the

32:33

world, their career, you know,

32:35

all of these things because of their neurodivergence and

32:38

to see that nuanced

32:40

picture of being

32:42

smart, being capable, being successful, And

32:45

also, like and, you know,

32:47

with my friend who's a psychologist, also talk

32:49

about, like, I can't seem to, like, pick

32:51

up the coffee cups around my house and now they're molding.

32:54

Right? Like, also to see my friend

32:56

who can get up and give a TEDx

32:58

talk and do all these things talk about,

33:00

and then I I had an autistic meltdown.

33:03

And I I needed to go get help. And

33:05

I I had to, you know, decompress for this amount

33:07

of time. And I feel like that nuanced

33:11

picture of what it means to

33:13

be neurodivergent in today's world

33:15

has been for me sort of

33:17

a unintentional mentorship

33:20

and inspiration and and really hope

33:22

for where I hope all of us

33:24

can aspire

33:25

to. Thank

33:26

you both for joining us who really appreciate the

33:28

conversation. Really appreciate it.

33:31

Thanks for having us. That

33:40

was a great interview. I feel like I learned so

33:42

much. I think if I really

33:44

step back, you know, and think

33:46

about this topic generally. What

33:49

I appreciate about it is we're

33:51

shifting

33:52

the responsibility in some ways from

33:55

the individual who might feel like

33:57

these are the expectations I just have to make

33:59

it work and that might

34:00

require a lot or feel unfair. To

34:02

an industry, into a workplace that

34:04

can more broadly be accommodating

34:07

to people and ask the question, like,

34:09

what do you need to be supported? And, like, how

34:11

do I help you thrive? And so I think

34:14

that shifting of power, that recognition

34:16

of, like, hey, if we're inherently

34:19

in a relationship, right, like an

34:21

employer, an employee, there is a

34:23

duty of care and responsibility that

34:25

we owe that to me is

34:28

really important. And I think more

34:30

of that is going to leave all of

34:32

us better off. Because the definition is

34:34

actually really expansive. And that's something I personally

34:37

sort of struggled with. It's like it's

34:39

so broad, then how

34:41

do we know And I think that's

34:43

part of the point. Right? Is that, like,

34:45

we're not going to know, like, neurodivergence

34:47

is a spectrum. Everyone exists somewhere on a spectrum.

34:50

Nobody thinks the same. Therefore, that's

34:52

not the right question to be asking or a question

34:54

to be holding. It's like, what do you

34:56

need? And how do we make sure that we can

34:58

accommodate that that you can

34:59

drive. Yeah. And that, I feel like that's a

35:01

wonderful question.

35:02

Yeah. I like that a lot. And what you

35:04

said made me just think about neurodiversity

35:08

in the context of any other type

35:10

of diversity. Right? And you think about

35:12

diversity as a spectrum,

35:14

and thinking of it in that framework

35:17

everybody is included. Right?

35:19

But there are people on different

35:22

parts of a spectrum that

35:25

need and deserve accommodations,

35:29

help assistance, voice,

35:31

agency, all of the above.

35:34

And the same thing can be applied to

35:36

neurodiversity. Right? Like everybody's neurodiverse.

35:39

There is no line. It's very

35:42

much blurred and fluid, but there

35:44

are people within that spectrum that

35:46

deserve to be seen and heard and

35:49

at times spoken

35:50

for. In order to help

35:52

them really live their best

35:54

life. Mhmm. Yeah. And

35:56

then I think you bring up a good point as well

35:59

around, like, this is a conversation

36:01

where we're starting to view people individually,

36:04

and I think that that's helpful at

36:06

all times. Right? In all context,

36:09

is to deal with somebody and interact with

36:11

someone on this individual basis based on where they're

36:13

at and what they need. I think more of that would

36:15

probably, like, would be better off. You

36:17

know. I think all of these things are

36:19

really interesting, like

36:22

segues into this broader conversation. That

36:25

we can start to think about differently

36:27

because of the conversation on neurodiversity. So

36:29

in the bonus episode next week, we're gonna

36:32

share tips on how to make sense of this

36:34

really big topic and help create more accessible,

36:36

equitable, and neuroinclusive environment

36:38

specifically in the workplace. So thank

36:41

you for listening. Make sure you follow. Make sure

36:43

you subscribe. Wherever you listen to, you

36:45

get notified when a new episode is

36:46

live, and we will talk to you next week.