0:01

We show up in communities with

0:03

people that they already trust community

0:05

organizations, churches, barber

0:08

shops. You name it. The places

0:11

where our people go to sort of connect

0:13

and engage and feel comfortable with each

0:15

other in these safe environments and

0:18

for us to build back trust

0:20

in what good healthcare can be all about,

0:22

I believe it's got to be done in sort

0:24

of concert with and in collaboration with

0:26

those kinds of new organizations.

0:29

Welcome back to until it's fixed where we explore

0:31

new ideas and work underway to make healthcare

0:34

simpler and more effective for

0:35

everyone. I'm your host, Kalle chamberlain.

0:38

And I'm doctor Kenny Pool. In

0:40

this episode, we'll be revisiting a

0:42

common topic on this

0:43

podcast. HealthEquity specifically

0:46

regarding Black Health. I'm

0:50

really interested in today's topic, which

0:52

is HealthEquity particularly

0:55

as it pertains to what we

0:58

can do to make improvements in that

1:00

space, whether it's as a

1:02

large institution like UnitedHealth

1:04

Group or community based

1:07

program like Blackman

1:09

Run or other grassroots

1:11

organizations. And I think

1:13

it's important to really ground ourselves on

1:15

what HealthEquity is. I

1:18

think at its core I think

1:20

the concept of HealthEquity is

1:22

a recognition that there are gaps in our

1:24

systems. Right? And that there are disparities and

1:27

that there's a big need for

1:29

us to really level

1:31

the playing field. However, that's

1:34

defined. I'm curious what your thoughts

1:36

are just kinda giving your expertise

1:39

and the work that you do in that space.

1:42

So I really like what you said, Kenny. The

1:44

one thing that I think about in particular

1:46

as it relates to what you just shared is

1:48

about your comment that the system

1:50

has gaps in it. And to me, what I think about

1:52

is every system functions

1:55

exactly as it was set up and intended

1:57

to function. And when the health system

1:59

was established in the United States, I

2:02

for one as a brown woman

2:04

was not included and seen as

2:06

a whole human being and how people should be

2:08

cared for. And so I think

2:10

if I reflect on it that way,

2:12

it's sort of understanding where we're

2:14

at It doesn't have to mean that there

2:16

was malicious intent. It doesn't have oh, you know,

2:18

that part of it is sort of separate. I'm not

2:20

really interested in that for purposes of work.

2:23

It's just recognizing that we now need

2:25

to shift the system to be much more

2:27

inclusive of people that were not

2:29

even, again, thought of as whole human beings

2:31

at the time that the system was established. I

2:34

also think about HealthEquity in the context

2:38

of all of the social determinants of health. So

2:41

what does it mean to have a safe place

2:43

to live, to have food, to have transportation,

2:46

and it needs to be equal opportunity

2:49

to access those things. And

2:51

I personally feel like that

2:53

is not true for the world that we live in today.

2:56

So addressing those things also

2:58

helps us get closer to having HealthEquity.

3:01

There's study by the Robert O'Johnson

3:03

Foundation where you can input zip codes.

3:06

And they can tell you the expected life

3:08

expectancy for a specific region based

3:10

on your skin color and the

3:12

lifespan in that area. And a lot of it

3:14

is because of these social determinants of health that I'm

3:16

describing. And in some areas, black

3:18

Americans are living up to twenty years less

3:20

than their white counterparts, ones have code over.

3:23

And so I think that really articulates clearly

3:25

the need for comprehensive health equity

3:27

and how deep and important and wide

3:30

it really is.

3:31

Yeah. I mean, at the core of it,

3:33

and you touched on both of these, it comes

3:35

down to justice and fairness. Justice

3:38

and looking at the historical

3:41

framework in which the system

3:43

sits in. Right? And then fairness in

3:46

terms of the current disparities

3:49

that exist today. And I

3:51

for one, I'm glad that there are people

3:53

that are working on this as I

3:55

mentioned, whether it be at

3:57

a institutional level or

4:00

on a grassroots level. So

4:02

In today's episode, we actually

4:04

spoke with two guests that are

4:06

working on just that

4:09

the first is Norman

4:10

Wright, who is Executive Vice president of

4:12

HealthEquity Strategy for UnitedHealth Group.

4:18

To start things off, we wanna just

4:21

go from what your connection is with

4:23

this topic? How did you get started in

4:25

this

4:25

work? And why is it important to

4:27

you? Well,

4:28

first, Dr. Kenny, Poole, and Kalle,

4:30

thanks so much for having me and inviting

4:33

me. I'm actually thrilled to be with

4:35

you and thrilled to have an

4:37

opportunity to talk about this critically important

4:39

topic. It's kind of why I got into healthcare

4:41

initially. I lost

4:43

my mother many years ago. Coming

4:45

up on thirty years now. Lung

4:48

condition, sarcoidosis, don't

4:50

mind sort of sharing that. lived

4:52

in inner city back in Philadelphia, had

4:54

the same PCP for years

4:56

and years and years and

4:58

did not get access to the right

5:00

and most appropriate care,

5:02

and as a result, probably shortened

5:04

her life, and it was a very painful

5:07

experience. So I don't want to see

5:09

any family go through a similar

5:11

situation. So that drives

5:13

me as well. But, yeah,

5:15

super pleased to be involved in the work

5:18

and, hey, we got a lot of work to do.

5:20

Thanks for sharing that story. I really appreciate

5:22

it, and I'm really sorry to hear that that happened.

5:24

I think the disparities that you experienced

5:27

that I experience on a personal level. It's hard

5:29

to understand at a macro level. And

5:31

I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit

5:33

about disparities

5:34

broadly. And specifically some

5:36

of the health outcomes that you're seeing in the

5:38

black community? Howard Bauchner: Yeah,

5:40

you know, when you think about the black community

5:42

and of course, there's a long history and

5:45

a troubled history, and there's systemic elements

5:47

of racism along

5:49

our history that have dramatically

5:52

impacted the delivery of healthcare. To our community.

5:54

So you have to start with an

5:56

understanding that many of these

5:58

elements are systemic and they're built in.

6:01

Intentionally or not, they just are. Right?

6:03

So gotta understand so you can get down

6:05

to the root cause of what some of those drivers are.

6:08

The biggest elements we see show up, of

6:10

course, are access and affordability. So

6:13

many of our folks in black communities

6:15

live in areas where they certainly are underserved,

6:18

can be challenged from a provider network

6:21

and provider access perspective. There's

6:24

certainly a full range of social determinants

6:26

impacting the black community. So transportation,

6:30

food and nutrition, financial support

6:33

and financial wellness, health

6:35

literacy access to digital

6:37

and data solutions, all those elements

6:40

kind of contribute to our

6:42

people not getting the right and best

6:44

and most appropriate care for them. And

6:46

then when you talk about disease conditions, Kalleon,

6:48

how it shows up hypertension, diabetes,

6:52

obesity, cardiovascular. And

6:56

again, many of those conditions, a

6:58

mix of how people have

7:00

grown up over time, what's kind of been in

7:02

the culture, some lack of

7:04

awareness of all the right sort of behaviors

7:07

and sort of prevention elements that

7:09

you can weave into your life to live sort of

7:11

better and healthier. So you get those

7:13

things, you have a lack of trust in the healthcare

7:15

system. So when it comes to

7:17

vaccinations, when it comes to wellness exams,

7:19

just going in for appointments, people

7:22

are somewhat hesitant for really good reasons.

7:24

They go back decades. Right? The fact centuries.

7:27

And here's the thing that motivates us

7:29

every day is we believe we can control

7:31

those things with the right strategic

7:34

thinking around how you engage, how

7:36

you sort of get to and reach people

7:38

in those communities and then being super

7:40

thoughtful about all the elements of the healthcare

7:43

delivery system and where

7:45

we're unintentionally contributing to

7:48

disparities and bias.

7:49

Yeah. So so those are the things we have to

7:51

get after. Thank you for just

7:53

laying out how complex and dynamic that

7:55

is because I think it's it's

7:57

hard to really grapple with how big this is --

8:00

Mhmm.

8:00

-- and

8:00

to try to understand where the points are that

8:02

we might tap in to start to change and

8:05

even changing one dimension of this like you're describing

8:07

with potentially addressing access

8:10

to care, that doesn't change the other

8:12

systems that are also at play that prevent

8:14

real equity from happening. And so

8:16

I wonder if you wanted to expand on that, and

8:18

I also wanted to touch on the last

8:20

point specifically about the trust in

8:23

our medical system. Because that to me

8:25

seems to be one of the most dynamic given

8:27

we're talking about a person interaction between

8:30

someone and their healthcare

8:31

provider, which is really hard to

8:33

monitor its scale. Howard Bauchner: Yeah,

8:35

so that's great question. And I love going

8:37

deeper in it. So let's start with the kind of

8:39

just an access example, right?

8:41

We can control that stakeholders

8:43

in the healthcare system may decide we

8:46

don't want to own and operate hospitals in

8:48

underserved communities. It's difficult

8:51

to do. Maybe we don't make enough profit

8:53

quote unquote. Yes, we'd like

8:55

to be mission oriented in serving, but also

8:57

there's the sort of financial realities of

8:59

operating hospital system like that.

9:01

So that leaves in this

9:03

huge gap, right, and potential deserts

9:06

and sort of care delivery. So we have

9:08

to think about different models of

9:10

reaching people be it telehealth

9:13

and virtual, be it mobile units

9:15

going into the community, be it

9:17

partnering with community organizations who

9:19

have points of presence, just

9:22

sort of new ways for us to reach

9:24

in and connect with people and

9:26

be there for them. And, you know, we always say

9:28

this. Right? Cali healthcare is incredibly

9:30

local. So always need

9:32

to be thinking in the context of down

9:34

to a zip code in a neighborhood, what

9:36

are the dynamics, you know, they're in,

9:39

And then how do we solve from them when it comes to access

9:41

affordability and getting the right

9:43

care? On the trust point

9:46

and I have to start with, like, a forty five second

9:48

anecdote K? Hopefully, many

9:50

of the listeners, if they haven't gone

9:52

to, we'll get to the National

9:55

Museum of African American history

9:58

in D. C. And take that

10:00

tour, and take the time to take

10:02

the tour properly, which means it may be a couple

10:04

days. When you go

10:06

through that experience and you start downstairs

10:08

and those that have been there will know what I'm talking

10:10

about and it takes you back to the

10:13

slavery days. And coming up through reconstruction,

10:15

etcetera. You see visualize

10:18

things like very rudimentary

10:21

and just old sort of outdated

10:24

testing tools and mechanisms

10:27

they used on our people

10:30

way back then to try to sort of understand

10:32

and tune the science of medicine. And

10:35

to say those practices are cool,

10:37

and sort of beyond understanding

10:40

would would be an understatement. Right? So

10:42

imagine those things were happening

10:45

they continue to happen. You had tragic,

10:47

unfortunate situations like that from a we're

10:50

doing tests and controls to try to sort

10:52

of develop medicine. All

10:54

of those stories get passed down. All

10:56

of those stories get embedded in the

10:58

black culture's consciousness. Right?

11:02

Doesn't matter that, you know, decades

11:04

and decades have gone by, you still hear those stories.

11:06

We saw it show up in the pandemic. People

11:08

not wanting to go get vaccinated because

11:11

of lack of trust. So

11:13

overcoming that is gonna be a really

11:15

big deal, and it's gonna take, I

11:17

think, a couple of really key things. Biggest

11:20

being transparency. And

11:22

people understanding, we're talking

11:24

about the delivery of care. Kinda, here's

11:26

what that means. We

11:28

show up in communities with people

11:30

that they already trust. Right?

11:33

Community organizations, churches,

11:36

think about the barbershops. You

11:38

name it. The places where our people go

11:40

to sort of connect and engage and

11:43

feel comfortable with each other in these safe

11:45

environments. And for us

11:47

to sort of build back trust in

11:49

what good healthcare can be all

11:50

about, I believe it's got to be done

11:52

in sort of concert with and in collaboration

11:55

with those kinds of community organizations. So

11:57

that's one. Two is

12:00

you gotta have a healthcare delivery system

12:02

from a clinician for perspective that resembles

12:05

and represents the communities we're

12:07

serving. Right? Does that mean that every

12:09

black person wants a black provider? No.

12:11

It doesn't mean that. Does it mean if

12:13

that's important to me, and if I'm

12:15

in a place where, hey, if I

12:17

don't have a provider that looks like me, I'm

12:19

not going in for my prostating I'm not

12:21

going in for my annual check. I'm not gonna

12:24

get my numbers run on

12:26

my, you know, my blood year to year and

12:28

see how I'm doing all of that. Yeah. It Those

12:30

things are barriers because of the lack of,

12:33

you know, suitability and I

12:35

see someone that looks and feels like me.

12:37

That has to be addressed. Right? Which

12:39

is why we're spending this, you know, this huge

12:41

hundred million dollar investment from our foundation

12:44

on future diverse

12:46

workforce, which we're excited about. But that's another

12:48

huge one we need to overcome. What

12:51

success look like in this?

12:53

I mean, and that's That's a broad

12:55

question. So even let let me drill

12:57

down that, like like, what does significant improvement

13:00

look like? How can we realize that? How do we

13:02

know we're on the right

13:03

track? You know, our small

13:05

health equity team within UnitedHealth Group who

13:07

works very closely in tight partnership

13:09

with the businesses. You know, we're working on

13:12

broader strategic plan. We're working

13:14

to align the organization around a few

13:16

key priorities, which I can quickly sort of step

13:18

through. One of the things we think about

13:20

from an inspiration perspective, Kenny, and

13:22

just kind of, you know, keeping ourselves motivated

13:25

this pursuit is if we were

13:27

writing a press release one or

13:29

two years down the road, what would the elements

13:32

of press release say? What would they look like?

13:34

And we think about things like this. So

13:37

we know today, black women within

13:39

maternal health, within that context,

13:42

three to four more times likely to

13:44

die have a really adverse outcome,

13:47

simply because they're black. Right? And because of

13:49

all the elements in the system that we've been talking

13:51

about. I'd like to see us

13:53

bend back that curve, not just in our

13:55

population here, UnitedHealth Group or UnitedHealthcare

13:58

specifically that we service, but across

14:00

the system, by twenty percentage

14:03

points. Bending a curve

14:05

like that for such a dramatic disparity

14:08

to me would be a huge indication that

14:10

we're on the right track. Then

14:12

kind of step down through it. Diabetes,

14:16

hypertension, obesity,

14:18

cardiovascular, We

14:20

have and we do good data

14:23

on kind of how our populations are performing

14:25

across those disease states. Can

14:27

identify kind of how much of a disparity we're

14:29

seeing within each. And then similarly,

14:33

one year, two years down the road,

14:35

see significant improvement in

14:38

how those disparities are showing up. That would be

14:40

another indication for me. We

14:42

looked at the numbers across our clinical workforce today

14:45

and said eight or nine percent

14:47

and don't quote me on that, but let's just say that's

14:49

the number. Our diverse especially

14:51

in certain areas where there's concentration

14:54

of people of color or rural communities,

14:56

you name it. And we start to see

14:58

meaningful and material increases

15:00

in the number of providers that represent those

15:03

communities, that would be a win. And that would

15:05

feel good in terms of some progress. And

15:07

then, you know, it's interesting. The

15:10

entire world is modernizing. We're going

15:12

digital heavy. We have

15:14

all these machine learning and AI algorithms

15:17

run-in the background that controls

15:19

so much of what we all see and experience every

15:21

day. And within healthcare, it's

15:23

informing clinical decisions, it's

15:26

predicting next best actions for patients

15:28

when they call in or walk into a care provider's

15:30

office. Like, you have all those things happening.

15:33

Progress to me would be we

15:35

could look at any of those sort

15:37

of technology and analytic driven routines

15:40

and feel really great that we have no unintended

15:42

bias or no sort

15:45

of impacts happening as

15:47

we've made a set of assumptions based on the majority

15:49

of the population versus those

15:52

with special and unique

15:53

needs. So just a few things

15:55

that I would look at as progress.

15:57

Right? Yeah, I appreciate that comment

15:59

of how it gets embedded into structure.

16:02

And embedded into these tools that we're using.

16:04

And I think that's a really important point

16:07

that is a part of HealthEquity, but maybe

16:09

doesn't get as much attention as it could.

16:11

To be able to really change outcomes at scale.

16:14

So I saw that there was a hundred million

16:16

dollar investment for a diverse

16:18

health

16:18

workforce. And that includes

16:21

a scholars program. Can you tell

16:23

us all about what that is? Yeah,

16:25

and I'm so glad you asked me about that because

16:27

we're super excited about the one. So,

16:30

you've likely heard that we've been driving

16:32

a program called Diverse scholars from

16:35

our UnitedHealth Foundation for many years

16:37

now. And we put cohorts of diverse

16:39

students, give them scholarships and

16:42

put them into programs at colleges

16:44

and universities and get them on a healthcare

16:46

provider, mostly TCP intended

16:49

track. It's been very successful. It's

16:51

created this amazing community of

16:54

lums that have gone on to get

16:57

their degrees, become clinicians

16:59

and physicians. And then most importantly,

17:01

go back into their underserved communities

17:03

to take care of people in the

17:05

context that they really understand. That's

17:08

been our foundation and kinda

17:10

how we've started this sort of scholarship

17:12

education and improving the workforce.

17:15

So, you know, our thing was we

17:17

all see the numbers. We know how

17:19

short we're running as it relates to the clinical

17:21

and the clinical workforce. And we know we're lacking

17:24

in diversity. So let's go in bigger,

17:26

you know. Let's take a hundred million dollars

17:29

over ten years and

17:31

drive that into far

17:33

more kids, young people

17:36

getting into healthcare clinical tracks,

17:38

And then ultimately over time, we're gonna see them

17:41

sort of back into these communities serving

17:43

people. So super excited about

17:45

that. You're gonna hear more as we go

17:47

through twenty twenty three, as we introduce

17:50

new scholarship partners, and

17:52

you start to hear exciting things that some of our

17:54

cohort members are doing. But, yeah, super excited

17:57

about that. Big long term investment.

18:00

And so the future

18:02

workforce is one of

18:04

six key priorities for our company that

18:06

we've established. So workforce

18:08

is one. Mortality and life expectancy,

18:11

with a specific focus on maternal health

18:13

for black women. It's probably our leading

18:16

goal area that we're going after. Behavior

18:19

on mental health with a focus on youth

18:21

mental health as well as seniors in isolation.

18:24

The teen suicide rates over

18:26

the last several years, and especially during the

18:28

pandemic, have increased dramatically.

18:31

It's a very tragic situation when we

18:33

need to address. The third is access

18:35

and affordability. We've talked a lot about that here

18:37

today. Making sure that we're getting

18:39

to and reaching not just a black

18:41

community but all underserved communities. Chronic

18:44

condition management, we've mentioned diabetes

18:46

and obesity and other chronic

18:49

diseases. That's gonna be a focus

18:51

area. And then the

18:53

remaining one is social economic

18:56

challenges. And that's all

18:58

the social determinants that we've spoken so

19:00

much about. One key element

19:02

here. Health care is local.

19:05

Healthcare is personal. We have to

19:07

be incredibly disciplined and

19:09

data driven in understanding ZIP

19:11

code by ZIP code across those

19:13

six areas. Where the deepest

19:16

needs are. So it's not that we say

19:19

maternal, black women

19:21

that needs to be a focus. Well, there are certain

19:23

communities where those trends

19:25

are really bad. But we need to

19:27

get in with a new clinical model and with

19:30

engagement and education make

19:33

sure that we're as early as possible in

19:35

the pregnancy that they're all into prenatal

19:37

and we support them through postpartum etcetera.

19:40

That data focused,

19:43

deep understanding of where these disparities

19:45

are showing up and where they need to be addressed is

19:47

an underlying

19:49

big piece of the strategy. Thank you,

19:51

Norman, for being here. This is such a great conversation

19:54

with lots for us to reflect on. I

19:56

wanna move us into the Lightning Round

19:57

now. What is giving you hope? The

20:00

goodness I see in

20:02

most of the people I come across on this

20:04

planet we have more income and then

20:06

we have points of

20:07

difference. So that continues to

20:09

give me

20:10

help. Was something new you've learned

20:12

recently related to the work that you

20:14

do? I knew there were disparities

20:16

in the system, Kenny. I didn't know

20:18

they were as deep as they are

20:21

and as prevalent as they are. We've

20:23

been talking about the black community here lot today

20:26

before Hispanics, for Native Americans,

20:28

people in rural communities, seniors, LGBTQ

20:31

plus go across the, you know,

20:34

some of the communities and populations. Boy,

20:36

there are real deep

20:38

need. So has surprised me, frankly, got a

20:40

lot of work to do.

20:42

Who has had that biggest impact on who you

20:44

are today? Easy question, my

20:46

mother. My dearly departed mother.

20:48

So, grew up in inner city,

20:50

Philadelphia with a sister five

20:53

years older than me single mom

20:55

situation. She's a school teacher.

20:57

Never missed a day of work in her entire career.

21:01

Work ethic was off the charts. And

21:03

the one thing she sort of embedded into

21:06

us was belief. And your

21:08

potential is probably far beyond

21:11

what you think and what you understand

21:13

to always pursue your full

21:14

potential. And that must have just

21:16

carried me. That's

21:18

a goal for this. Yep. Thank

21:20

you.

21:27

I really like Norman's emphasis on

21:29

community based organizations, and I'm wondering

21:32

what groups have really impacted your

21:34

life, Kenny? Yeah. You know what? I've given

21:36

this a little bit of thought, and I can give

21:38

two good examples. There's

21:40

a summer program that I think

21:42

is still running to this day. This program's

21:44

gotta be thirty plus years old. Sponsored

21:47

by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. At

21:50

the time I did it, it was called the

21:52

minority medical education program.

21:54

And what they do is they

21:56

take students from various underrepresented

21:59

medicine, minority backgrounds,

22:02

and bring them on to medical

22:04

school campuses across the

22:06

country. When I did it

22:08

over twenty years ago, there

22:11

were six different sites. And so

22:13

I spent the summer after my freshman

22:15

year at college at Yale with

22:17

about another one hundred twenty

22:19

five students and really got exposure

22:22

to what the field of medicine is,

22:25

what is required as a premedical student,

22:27

how to be an effective pre medical student

22:30

and set up your application the the correct

22:32

way. And that set me off.

22:34

From there, I was off to the races.

22:36

And so that program at least

22:38

with me created another black physician

22:40

for the system. The second example

22:43

that I'll give is similar to

22:45

some of the community based organizations

22:48

that Norman brought up the Boys and Girls

22:50

Club. So I was the active participant

22:52

in the Boys and Girls Club. In

22:54

North St. Louis growing up where I played

22:57

baseball and football. And

23:00

even though it was focused on

23:02

sports and activity, it

23:04

still set me up again for

23:06

the discipline for the structure needed

23:08

to become a physician and then also to live

23:10

and active and healthy lifestyle. What

23:13

about you, Kelly? Are there any examples

23:15

of community based groups or institutions that

23:17

have had an impact on your

23:20

growth and development as an

23:21

adult. I mean, I'm gonna be biased in saying

23:23

this because it's an organization that I founded, but

23:25

it's called New Leaders Council Twin Cities. And

23:28

it's a chapter of a national organization. What

23:31

is special about what we created in the

23:33

Twin Cities is that I

23:35

came back from grad school in New York

23:37

and New Jersey actually working at the Robert Wood Johnson

23:39

Foundation. And being in Minnesota

23:41

again, I felt like I wanted

23:44

to work on equity issues and I didn't know

23:46

where the community of young people were

23:48

that weren't just talking about the things that they

23:50

wanted to see change, but we're actually making movement

23:52

to do that. And so I decided to

23:54

start that organization to try to convene

23:57

young people that were doing that. And

23:59

creating that sense of community was

24:01

such an important thing for me because

24:04

it made me feel less alone in the work. And

24:06

I think oftentimes when you're pushing against something

24:08

that's so well defined and you're trying

24:10

to create and dream about

24:12

new ways of being that we can interact with

24:15

the system with and with our communities. It's

24:17

really easy to feel isolated in that experience.

24:20

And that organization is now, you know, seven years

24:22

old. We've trained over a hundred young people. Several

24:24

of our alumni have gone on to elected office.

24:27

It's a really incredible experience to realize

24:29

that it's not just a leadership learning

24:31

and development program. It's a true community.

24:34

People have gotten married. They've met their

24:36

best friends. You know, it's like

24:38

we're really in this together. And the goal

24:40

for that organization, which is starting to come to

24:43

fruition, was that in ten years after

24:45

our founding, we would be able to

24:47

call one another to get things

24:49

done across the city because it's cross sector.

24:52

Organizations. So we have people in nonprofit

24:54

that are entrepreneurs in private sector

24:56

and having that real sense of community

24:59

with people that are all over in powerful positions

25:02

to help advance from the same set of values,

25:04

I think that can transform a city. So

25:06

I'm really, you know, moved and impacted

25:09

by the work that continues to exist with that organization

25:11

even though I'm no longer

25:12

involved. And it's one of the things that makes

25:14

me feel very hopeful about where we're going with

25:16

equity. That's awesome. I think

25:18

it's great. And I applaud

25:20

people like you who really dig

25:23

their feet in and invest in communities

25:26

And our next guest has

25:28

done just that. He's no stranger

25:31

to community groups and created an

25:33

organization that has been impactful

25:36

across the globe. We talked with

25:38

Edward Walton, the cofounder of Blackman

25:40

Run, and the group's chief motivation

25:43

office say. Here's what he had to say.

25:50

Well, let's start with you sharing

25:52

with our listeners a little bit about Blackman

25:54

Run. What is

25:55

it? How did you guys start the the

25:58

concept? Where did it come from? Lightman

26:00

run was founded in Atlanta, Georgia in twenty

26:02

thirteen. And it was

26:04

a brainchild and idea of my co friend,

26:06

Jason Russell, he and I were

26:09

colleagues, peers, and our corporate jobs.

26:12

And we noticed that there was a

26:14

a lack of diversity in

26:16

the things that we did, particularly

26:19

road racing. It was very rare

26:21

in distances that see the

26:23

number of African Americans of just people

26:25

have called a period of these races. But

26:27

at the same time, you know, and every day

26:29

walks, we're seeing all the signs that

26:32

black males weren't taking care of themselves,

26:34

post high school, post collegiate. If

26:37

they weren't playing one of the big three after

26:39

college, which is football, basketball,

26:41

and track. And I'm not even talking about

26:43

the pro aspect of it just recreational.

26:47

There was no outlet. Now that is changing

26:49

the current date and time. And so

26:51

we found a Blackman run to give

26:53

a vehicle in medium for African

26:55

American men to come in and control

26:58

and take responsibility of their health

27:00

and well-being. And that's just not physical.

27:02

It was also mental health, stress

27:04

reduction, and things along that line.

27:07

Since then, we've grown to

27:09

forty nine chapters in the United

27:12

States, and we have chapters in

27:14

Japan, Kenya,

27:16

London. So, you

27:18

know, why running being the preferred

27:21

exercise of physical activity of

27:23

choice? It's easy. The

27:26

cost of entry is so low. You

27:28

got landscape. You got gravity.

27:31

You get some shoes. You get some companionship.

27:34

So it was something that doesn't require

27:36

a lot of external add ons

27:38

to be able to go do it. Right? It's

27:41

simply getting, you know, whatever the running attire

27:43

that you need, a decent pair of shoes, properly

27:45

fit it and getting out and doing it for as

27:47

much or as least as you want.

27:49

So rather than have to get in a car, drive to

27:51

a gym, find a basketball, get picked up

27:53

on the team, get a cycle, do all these

27:55

things while the exercises are good. You

27:57

can see they're beyond. Right now,

28:00

I can go from getting off this podcast

28:02

and go and run five miles in

28:04

about five minutes. Time for me to change

28:06

clothes, put downstairs, put my shoes

28:08

on, put my safety away in the

28:10

staying

28:11

on. So the barrier to entry is much

28:13

lower than it is for lot of other physical

28:15

activities. That makes sense. Can

28:17

you tell us a little bit about some of the impact

28:19

that you've seen your organization be able

28:21

to make?

28:23

Well, one of the things we did was at

28:26

the very onset of starting Black

28:28

Knight one, we wanted to ensure that

28:30

we were not grouped in into a run

28:32

club. That is absolutely not what we

28:35

we are not. We are a social health

28:38

network of influence and impact.

28:40

Right? And the things

28:42

that we've done has been

28:44

testimonials. If you go to YouTube and

28:46

look at some of the things where gentlemen

28:49

have said, I've never had a place I could go

28:51

feel safe. Where I would be, you

28:53

know, I'm walking at the beginning. And now

28:55

a year later, I'm able to run complete half

28:57

marathon, and there was no judgment. We

29:00

have a couple of pillars that we adhere

29:02

to. The three main are

29:04

Mac, MAC.

29:06

That's moderation. Accountability, and

29:08

consistency. And we ask that all

29:11

of our members supporting leadership operate

29:13

off those. We also have some mantras

29:15

that no man left behind. Right?

29:17

And we are the healthy brotherhood. And

29:19

it is evolved into more of a

29:22

health fraternity than anything else.

29:25

And I get stopped at airports

29:27

whenever I travel, I always travel in the

29:29

brand. I've had

29:31

individuals walk up to me and say, hey,

29:33

I know you're chapter in New York. They're doing great

29:36

things. They're giving out scholarships. They're they're

29:38

promoting health fairs. I've

29:40

had women stop me and say, Thank

29:42

you so much. My husband didn't have anywhere to

29:44

go. He couldn't figure out how to get started. Now

29:46

he he looks forward to that weekly run

29:48

interaction with his

29:49

brothers. And it has just grown

29:51

into this healthy fraternity.

29:54

Well, one of the things that I've heard you

29:57

say is that you

29:59

don't come to black men running

30:01

in shape. You come to black men

30:03

run to get in shape. And we know

30:05

oftentimes I think men

30:07

in general want to come

30:10

ready made, if you will. mean, and,

30:12

know, as a physician, I would have

30:14

people that would say, hey, I'm gonna come and see

30:16

you for a physical, but I'm gonna get in shape

30:18

first. And it's like, whoa. Look back. Like,

30:20

no, come out as you watch. So so my

30:22

question to you is this, can you share an example

30:25

of a success story where somebody

30:27

came as they

30:28

were? And what kind of evolution

30:30

in a positive way that person

30:33

had being a part

30:33

of Blackman run? Yeah.

30:35

So the example I give won't

30:38

be specific to any one of our

30:40

forty nine chapters. I mean, these are testimonials

30:43

that have come from in some form of fashion

30:45

from numerous chapters where in

30:47

our chapter we had a gentleman, he came

30:49

in and, you know,

30:51

he overcome what you correctly stated,

30:54

the ego. You don't wanna be the last

30:56

guy. You don't wanna be the guy that's slow.

30:58

And during the course of him running with us

31:00

for two

31:00

years, he lost ninety

31:03

two pounds. Wow. Right?

31:05

His health, it improved his

31:08

demeanor. He says marriage got better.

31:11

Right? He came out with a different energy

31:13

about himself. And so

31:15

the the success that I measure was in

31:17

the physical transformation of his body.

31:20

It is how he now went and promoted.

31:23

His journeys, if I can do it, you

31:25

can do it. Right? And we have skill

31:27

levels and conditioning levels and ambition levels

31:29

all the way up. Some of us just recreational runners,

31:31

some of them like to compete. I'm highly competitive

31:34

when I wanna be. But more often than not,

31:36

I'd like to come out or you're coming out. And

31:38

then, our gatherings are much more than running.

31:41

You would be surprised some of the conversations

31:43

that occurred when guys or,

31:45

you know, safe zone, everything

31:47

from raising family, employment,

31:50

sexual health, mental health, dating,

31:54

divorce. We are a support mechanism.

31:56

We make it very inclusive. The name Blackman

31:59

runs just a designation. But if you

32:01

look at our chapters, we're hugely diverse.

32:03

You know, we have men that

32:05

participate that are not African

32:07

American, but they come out because they believe in an issue.

32:10

Now their underlying reason may be because they

32:12

they're interacting and they just won't be part

32:14

of the brotherhood. So there are so

32:16

many testimonials. III

32:19

like to go back to something you said, doctor Cool.

32:22

I feel to this day here

32:24

that, hey, I'm gonna come around with you guys. I'm

32:26

just gonna, you know, get tuned up a little

32:28

bit. So I'm not the last guy that'll and make

32:30

myself look I'll say it again.

32:33

You don't come to Blackman run

32:36

when you're in shape. You come to Blackman run

32:38

to get in shape. And we'll get you wherever you're

32:40

there. We can be part of that journey for you.

32:42

Whether your mission is a full marathon

32:44

or if your mission, I wanna run A5K

32:47

without stopping. We have

32:49

the ability to dynamically

32:51

address whatever needs that our members come to us

32:53

with. And promotion, of

32:55

health awareness beyond running. And

32:58

that's been a big thing for us. Having

33:00

individuals who have the medical expertise

33:03

and knowledge like yourself, doctor pool,

33:05

who often leaders within that chapter,

33:07

facilitates our members to

33:09

take care themselves and be more aware about

33:12

why they need to do this. And I can get into the

33:14

reason why they really need to have some type of

33:17

well-being initiative.

33:18

Mhmm.

33:20

This is so amazing. I mean, as you're talking,

33:22

I'm thinking about two things, and one is

33:25

really inspiring confidence in people.

33:27

And doing that

33:29

through the relationships that you're supporting them

33:31

in, but also just by demonstrating to

33:33

them what they're really capable of. And

33:35

I think it is really powerful when you feel

33:38

like understand what your body can do and

33:40

you push yourself to your limits and you're able

33:42

to overcome that. The other thing I'm

33:44

thinking about is real community. And

33:46

not community just in a shared interest,

33:49

but like deep relationships. And

33:51

I'm thinking a lot about some of the men

33:53

in my life who have reflected to me that they

33:55

don't have safe spaces like that, where

33:57

they can have authentic conversations, where

34:00

they can be vulnerable, where they can ask for

34:02

help. Where they feel safe. And

34:04

so it it's nice that there's

34:06

a shirt activity, but it's almost like the

34:08

deeper thing that's really happening. Even

34:11

if that's not the sole purpose, that's definitely one

34:13

of the outcomes is to have these, like, really incredible

34:15

relationships that transcend

34:17

just the time that you're spending together running.

34:20

But, like, lifelong relationships. And

34:23

I think that's really beautiful.

34:25

You say confidence. And that's the

34:27

theme. You know, confidence is something

34:30

that is there, but it just

34:32

has to have a medium to manifest. And

34:35

being able to have your body perform

34:37

because you know you've done the things to

34:40

go out and compete or to exercise

34:43

that builds confidence. The other thing

34:45

is You were talking about

34:48

a safe space and all of these things. Yes.

34:50

It goes beyond gatherings.

34:53

If you're part of our regular routine,

34:56

and we haven't seen you for a while.

34:58

We check-in on you. We do wellness

35:00

checks. Just like, hey, we haven't seen you. You

35:02

generally don't ever miss a run. And

35:04

and then do we get, hey, I moved.

35:07

I took on a different shift. Hey,

35:09

I'm getting ready to get deployed. Has not

35:11

injuries. You know, and we keep very

35:13

good chicken and monitoring

35:15

of our guys. Right? We can tell

35:17

when someone's having something that's going on, right,

35:19

especially when they're regular. So we have staples.

35:22

And some guys don't come because it's cold.

35:25

And some guys don't come because it's hot. I love

35:27

hot. So I could I could run-in

35:29

Phoenix. All day. Running

35:32

Minneapolis, no day.

35:36

That's great. Thank you so much

35:38

for joining us today. Let's go to the Lightning

35:41

Round and start with our first

35:42

question. What gives you hope? Youth.

35:46

One of our biggest initiatives that we gotta

35:48

get more young people and the early we can

35:50

get them to understand that your health

35:53

is beyond your youth,

35:55

there's gonna come a time. I'm fifty four.

35:57

I'll be fifty five here pretty soon. And

35:59

your youth protects you. But if you

36:01

protect your gift, they won't betray you.

36:03

You get older. What's something you've

36:06

learned recently? I learned

36:08

that this idea of this symbol, this

36:10

brotherhood, is bigger and more

36:12

important than I thought. I did not think it was going

36:14

to be this. I really did.

36:16

We went from Southern chapters Atlanta,

36:18

Tennessee, you know, the Carolinas,

36:20

the next thing I know we're the largest

36:23

African American health focused

36:25

network in the world. I

36:28

know you'll see some of these others,

36:30

but those are run clubs. We do so

36:32

much more and we're so much more than a run

36:34

club.

36:35

I really appreciate it. I I mean, I enjoy

36:37

listening to you, and I wanna

36:40

thank you. And actually, I wanna thank you on two different

36:42

levels. Alright? So from

36:44

the standpoint of the

36:46

purpose of this podcast and

36:49

looking at how we can build a

36:51

better health system that

36:53

works better for everyone. I

36:55

thank you because your group

36:58

is filling in a huge gap that's

37:00

within our health system. And as taking care

37:02

of African American males. That's

37:04

where we are not as a health system

37:07

doing a good job, and we see that in life expectancy

37:10

We see that in terms of disease and

37:12

health disparities, and your group

37:14

is filling in that void and

37:16

helping to move the needle in that regard in

37:18

terms of engagement and empowerment.

37:20

So I wanna thank you there. And then I also

37:22

wanna thank you personally because, again,

37:25

as a runner, it's good knowing

37:28

that that brotherhood and that connection is

37:30

out there. And, you know, I've not

37:32

only gone to races with guys

37:34

and we've you know, rep the brand, but I've

37:36

gone to races by myself and rep

37:38

the brand and again felt empowered. And then I've

37:40

gone to races in other cities, and I've met other

37:43

guys who had on the Church too. All of

37:45

a sudden, it's like, okay, great. And it's almost

37:47

like I I have automatic friend that I know is running

37:49

the race with me as well. So I thank

37:51

you for the organization which you've done for

37:53

me personally and for your motivation.

38:01

I really loves talking to Ed. I

38:03

specifically thought that

38:05

his comments about the sense of community

38:07

that's created the real relationships

38:09

that are created in addition

38:12

to the run club is just so cool.

38:14

And I think that's what's really special about

38:17

some of these organizations is they

38:19

set out with an intention to do one thing,

38:21

and it ends up being something so much

38:23

bigger than what the founders can even

38:25

see for themselves, even speaking for

38:26

myself. And it really feels like he's cultivated something

38:29

very, very special to a lot of people. Yep.

38:32

And I'm glad you mentioned the

38:34

parallel to your organization

38:37

because one of the things that stuck out

38:39

to me in the conversation was just his passion

38:42

for what he's created and

38:45

the passion that he still has for it.

38:47

Right? Even as it's doing amazingly

38:50

well, he still is just

38:52

as passionate about it as if he created it

38:54

yesterday. And you seem to also

38:57

have that same zeal,

38:59

if you

38:59

will, when speaking about the

39:01

nonprofit that you started. So think that's a

39:03

really cool thing.

39:04

Yeah. Thank you. I definitely felt

39:07

some similarity in the conversation, and I

39:09

think, you know, it's really hopefully inspiring

39:11

for our audience too to be able to hear

39:13

about how it can be as simple

39:16

as starting to gather

39:18

people and just going for a run. You know, there's

39:20

obviously a lot more that gets put into

39:22

creating an organization, but it's

39:24

started with that intention and it was very simple.

39:27

And he comments on that where he says

39:29

running is the easiest, most accessible

39:31

form of working out. Right? Like, you

39:33

just need a pair of shoes. And so I

39:35

really appreciated that dimension of the conversation

39:38

as

39:38

well. Howard Bauchner: You know, I think that next

39:40

week's topic is gonna pair

39:42

extremely well with the topic

39:44

that we had today. I mean, when we talk about

39:46

people being healthier and

39:49

living their lives better, at its

39:51

core, we talk about exercise, and

39:53

we also talk about healthy eating. And so

39:56

for next week's bonus episode, we'll be speaking

39:58

to gastroenterologists and trained

40:00

chef, doctor Ed McDonald. He'll

40:02

be sharing tips on how to eat healthier

40:05

and why it's so important.

40:06

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. Make

40:09

sure to follow or subscribe wherever you

40:11

listen so you can get notified when a new episode

40:13

is live. Catch you next time.