0:03

Pj crew it's producer draw Straws and

0:05

orthodox his office week for Passover, but

0:07

we wanted to share something from Tablet

0:09

the Feals especially relevant this holiday season

0:12

the Minion tablet series of roundtable discussions

0:14

with everyday Jews as a new special

0:16

installment. A. Conversation with Jews from

0:18

the former Soviet Union moderated there's always

0:21

by Abigail Pogrom it we as Tablet

0:23

Executive Director Wayne Hoffman to explain this

0:25

multi lingual edition of the Minion and

0:27

to talk about why the minion itself

0:29

is one of his favorite things Published

0:32

by Tablet. You. Can find

0:34

the Russian speakers Minion a

0:36

tablet mag.com/minion. But first here's

0:38

Stephanie with Wayne Hoffman. When

0:49

Hoffman, welcome back to unorthodox.

0:51

Like you. Either on the show

0:53

a bunch over the years. singer name may be

0:56

familiar to some of our listeners, but I want

0:58

you to for you to introduce yourself, tell us

1:00

who you are. I am tablets

1:02

executive editor. Which. Means I

1:04

oversee parts of the magazine directly like

1:06

the community section. And. The food

1:09

section of a holiday section, and the

1:11

police action. I've been a tablet now

1:13

since the beginning, since before the beginning

1:15

and came to tablet from the forward

1:17

and before that Billboard Magazine. And we're

1:19

going back now into the Dark Ages.

1:21

if. It ever was a tell us about

1:23

some of the things that you publish in

1:25

your sections. One of the. Things that we

1:27

publish a lot of in my sections

1:29

that I really love: our personal essays.

1:32

People. Talking about their lives as Jews

1:34

The phrase I used to describe it

1:36

as bottom Up Judaism. So as a

1:39

talking about top Down Judaism What. Organizations.

1:42

Denominations leaders,

1:45

Think. You should do and say you should

1:47

do. As a Jew, it's about what actual

1:49

Jews do with their lives and how they

1:51

live their lives, usually whatever that means to

1:53

them, and whatever they think. The personal essays

1:55

tend to be about people who have been

1:57

wrestling with their Judaism in some way, Whether

1:59

it's. about a ritual or a

2:01

belief or if they have politics that conflict with

2:04

one of their beliefs and how they've reconciled what

2:06

they think and what they do in their lives

2:08

Jewishly, I love to

2:10

see people wrestling with their Judaism. And we're

2:13

Jews. People wrestle with everything all the time.

2:15

So there's no shortage of personal essays to run,

2:17

but that's one of the things you'll find

2:19

most. In addition to people

2:21

giving their personal spin on things like

2:23

ritual and how they behave

2:25

Jewishly, what is Shabbos dinner?

2:28

What does ritual look like? What does mourning

2:31

look like? What does parenting

2:33

look like as a Jew? How do you

2:35

make that authentic to yourself as a Jew

2:37

and not just according to

2:39

a prescription of what someone else told you you

2:41

should do? You published some beautiful

2:44

pieces, but I have to say my favorite series

2:46

that runs in your section is The Minion. Me

2:48

too. It's also my favorite. I love it more

2:50

than anything. It is so much effort

2:53

and work behind the scenes to get it

2:55

done and every time it is worth it.

2:57

So tell us what is The Minion? The

2:59

Minion is a gathering of quote unquote regular

3:01

people from a particular demographic

3:03

group, usually a group that we haven't

3:05

heard from a lot. And certainly ones

3:08

I feel like we haven't heard from

3:10

enough directly. The goal is to find

3:12

out how different kinds of Jews feel

3:14

like they do or don't fit into

3:16

the larger American Jewish community. So

3:19

the very first one was LGBTQ Jews.

3:22

It sort of set the template for what I

3:24

wanted to do with The Minion, which was twofold.

3:27

One, to get people talking in their

3:29

own voices, not to talk to

3:31

quote unquote experts to

3:34

find out what are the issues

3:36

facing LGBTQ Jews today. I wanted

3:38

to talk to actual LGBTQ Jews. And

3:41

more specifically, I wanted to talk to people who

3:43

were quote unquote regular people, not

3:45

communications directors for organizations or academics who

3:47

have published books on these subjects. Those

3:49

are all worthy people, but those are

3:52

all people who are speaking

3:54

in a somewhat detached way about

3:56

large societal trends. That's all interesting,

3:58

but those I've quoted a newspaper

4:00

stories and magazine stories a lot. I

4:03

wanted to hear from everyday people

4:05

to find out what they're actually going

4:07

through. And particularly people who haven't been

4:09

called on to relate their own experiences.

4:12

So they haven't been focus grouped. They

4:15

haven't been edited by their

4:17

bosses and their board

4:19

of directors. They're just people talking off

4:21

the cuff about what they've gone through

4:23

authentically as Jews from a

4:25

particular background. The idea of

4:27

a minion is that we get at least 10 of them. It's

4:30

usually 10, 11,

4:32

I think the biggest we had was 12 people.

4:34

And we try to mix up as much as

4:36

possible. Age, gender, geographic location,

4:38

and sometimes other instances that are relevant

4:40

to that particular topic. Like when we

4:42

did a minion with Jews with disabilities,

4:44

we want to make sure they represented

4:46

different kinds of disabilities so that

4:49

someone who's deaf might have a different experience from

4:51

someone who's blind. The barriers to participation could be

4:53

different if you were in a wheelchair, as

4:56

opposed to if you had an issue with speech.

4:59

Those are very different kinds of disabilities. So

5:01

we try to make sure that we

5:04

have different experiences covered. It's not representative

5:06

of any statistically perfect sample at all.

5:09

We don't pretend that it is. But the

5:11

idea is to get multiple voices from as

5:13

many backgrounds as possible to see what

5:15

these people are going through and

5:17

how the American Jewish community can

5:19

understand them better. And so you

5:21

gather all these people and they are in conversation with

5:24

probably the best person to be talking to a group

5:26

of Jews today. Absolutely. There's without

5:28

doubt Abigail Pogrebin. I've been

5:30

in this business, this business of journalism.

5:33

A great business. A great business. Highly recommended. Lots

5:35

of work, not much pay. I've been in this

5:37

business of journalism for 35 years. And

5:42

I've done a lot of interviews and I've been on

5:44

the other end of a lot of interviews. And I've

5:46

assigned a lot of stories with people who do interviews.

5:49

Abigail Pogrebin is extraordinarily skilled

5:51

at this, at

5:53

drawing people into conversation with each other.

5:56

Part of it is that she does the work. We

6:00

have the minion. Abigail has

6:02

already spoken to three times

6:04

as many people. Who. Have

6:06

been. Whittled. Down from even

6:09

larger. Groups. Of potential

6:11

participants. we get to the like the

6:13

participants then she interviews them all. Sometimes.

6:16

For half an hour an hour to time

6:18

each one dozens of people to figure out

6:20

who has the most instinct story to share,

6:22

who has the most. Representative.

6:24

Story: Who has the most unique story and

6:27

how these stories dovetail together like a we

6:29

want to make sure we have this perspective

6:31

represented. This person has a really. Fantastic.

6:33

And ago that illustrates this issue. So before

6:36

we even sit down, she already knows these

6:38

people quite well in those their stories. And

6:40

that's how she can. Orchestrate.

6:42

Such fantastic discussions. She knows who

6:45

to connect, to, who, what subjects

6:47

or segue into the next, and

6:49

which subjects will draw responses that

6:51

are widely shared and which will

6:53

draw responses that have very, very

6:55

differing responses. So we'll get some

6:57

conflicts that's right word, but different

6:59

some difference of opinion into these

7:02

discussions. This. Latest mean he and

7:04

his is truly astounding, And not only because

7:06

we're publishing it in multiple languages, tell us

7:08

a little bit. About this latest installment.

7:10

So. Over the past two years we've done.

7:13

A ten previous minions and they've they

7:15

bring from issues like Lgbtq jews were.

7:18

we started to black shoes which was

7:20

one of the recent ones we did

7:22

she's with disabilities. To atheist

7:24

shoes and belt A Super Jews who found

7:26

orthodoxy later in life we we. We have

7:29

a couple. On. More

7:31

unexpected topics like we wanted to

7:33

tackle: interfaith marriage. But. We

7:35

decided to do it from the perspective of the

7:37

non jewish spouse. Because. We realized

7:39

no one ever talks to the non jew or spouse about what

7:41

it's like, be married or do we keep talking to the jews,

7:44

but what it's like be made to a non jew. So we

7:46

didn't the other way round be taken all sorts of different tax

7:48

over the past two years. The. One

7:50

we're doing next. Is with choose

7:52

who immigrated from the former Soviet Union.

7:55

Russian. Speaking Jews, not their

7:57

descendants, but those immigrants themselves.

7:59

That unto itself is an

8:01

enormous range of people. We.

8:04

Have people who immigrated. In

8:06

the seventies. Under soviet

8:08

rule people emigrated. Later

8:11

as is. so he was crumbling. And

8:13

people who came later after the fall the soviet

8:15

Union so they came from. Independent.

8:18

Countries: Ukraine, Estonia, Kyrgyzstan, all

8:20

across the former Soviet Union.

8:23

They. Also have a large range of ages. Some

8:25

people came as children. Some. People

8:27

came as adults with children. They.

8:30

Moved all different places across the United States.

8:32

So their experiences even though on the one

8:34

hand they share a lot in common. The.

8:36

Things they differ about are often even

8:39

more revealing the things they share. One

8:41

of the things that we asked about

8:43

that was particularly intriguing of there's a

8:45

common perception. That. Russian speaking

8:47

shoes tend to lean right when it

8:50

comes to politics. We ask this question

8:52

and three people answered in completely different

8:54

ways. One talked about how she arrived

8:56

as a liberal and became more conservative,

8:59

one about such he have hired as

9:01

a republican and now is the democrats

9:03

and the other who talked about the

9:06

generational differences saying well my parents are.

9:08

Republicans. And. The. Generation

9:10

after me are democrats and I'm sort of

9:12

in the middle, so he didn't turn one

9:15

where the other actually turned out to be

9:17

much more complicated than anyone. Thoughts and each

9:19

of those people explained how they arrived at

9:21

their politics. So it's not that there was

9:23

a cookie cutter answer. there wasn't a that.

9:25

He went in thinking there was one. You

9:27

find yourself disabused that most very fast. And

9:30

I think that's the magic of these millions, right?

9:32

Once you get real people in the room together,

9:34

it turns. Out Whatever your preconceived notion about

9:36

x group of people within the Jewish

9:38

community. There's. So much texture and

9:40

Larry a new on since their individual experience.

9:43

It all goes right out the window and

9:45

this is really one of the reasons you

9:47

wanna talk to quote unquote regular people. One

9:49

of the questions that we talked to the

9:52

juice in the former some Ian about was

9:54

how they were. Welcomed. Or

9:56

not welcomed. By. The American Jewish Community

9:58

and their answers. They did line up.

10:01

They do have similar things to say,

10:03

but two of the main issues that

10:05

came up were: the American Jewish community

10:07

did a fantastic job. Of. Welcoming us

10:09

initially of the first while helping us get

10:11

out and second of all welcoming us to

10:14

America and into the community. But then once

10:16

we were here, they didn't always do such

10:18

a great job of actually integrating as into

10:20

the community. Like. If we came

10:22

without any religious background, maybe someone said down and

10:25

said this is what's your body's and this is

10:27

what you don't do in this is what kosher

10:29

meat guy And there wasn't a lot of real

10:31

teaching. About. What Judaism meant.

10:34

Or. The stories behind the rules.

10:36

Or. Building a community that included them instead

10:39

of just saying well, this is the community

10:41

and you can show up if you want.

10:43

So the things I had to say we're

10:45

pretty nuanced about on the one hand, yes,

10:47

recognizing just all the effort see market used

10:49

mean he had made. And. Also,

10:51

the places may have fallen short of the same time.

10:53

I. Think the movement to freeze of into a

10:55

villains large and all of our imaginations. That

10:58

you're right, I don't think list of necessarily.

11:00

Thought about what happens after that correct or what

11:02

happened before that. This is one of the key

11:04

things that came up. In. This discussion

11:06

and it's come up and almost all

11:08

of the minions not necessarily during the

11:10

Ming and but in the notes we

11:12

get from participants afterwards Which is to

11:14

say thank you so much for actually

11:16

listening to us because often times we

11:18

go into the discussions we meaning Be

11:21

and Abigail poker been insanely protests Carter

11:23

who is helping us with setting all

11:25

those of us up. We go in

11:27

from our own prospectus. no matter how

11:29

much you try not to you gone

11:31

from your own perspective and so often

11:33

as Americans use we start the discussion

11:35

with Americans. Use organizing to free Soviet

11:37

juri. Which. Is all a

11:40

lovely and valid discussion? But that is

11:42

not with this discussion is this discussion

11:44

is about the Soviet Jews themselves and

11:46

they have agency in their own story.

11:49

And yes, American Jews organize and they

11:51

recognize all that American Jewry did to

11:53

help them. But. The story as

11:55

their story, not our story. We're a part

11:58

of their story. So for this minion, That's.

12:01

Where we're focusing his i'm I'm them. It's

12:03

about them and letting them tell their own

12:05

story. So what does? To give us the

12:07

behind the scenes you told us about

12:09

the intense preparation I like goes into

12:12

selecting the participants and pre interviewing them

12:14

and getting everyone ready for the zoom

12:16

and then of course the zoom interview.

12:18

On which adding that softly manages a

12:21

a ten percent ten plus person interview.

12:23

On there was one of holocaust survivors

12:25

dad multigenerational with younger people having their

12:27

pants with the technology. Just sat was

12:30

a really up a herculean seat on

12:32

her part. but then it it all

12:34

gets edited down and published in tablets.

12:36

A tells about their final. Products So

12:39

the final product is it. V

12:41

Editing is extraordinarily like we're not

12:43

out to change what anyone said.

12:46

We're. Out to clear up the arms and

12:48

ours we found in this past minion

12:50

i think one person some starting sentences

12:52

with so. Which. Is fine, that's how

12:54

people talk, but. It's not necessary

12:56

Occasionally someone has said. The.

12:58

Wrong word A note the come back afterwards I

13:00

i I said describe but that's the not the

13:03

what I meant and summers were looking upwards to

13:05

say that. I know that person just drop the

13:07

name of a Russian true but I honestly don't

13:09

know what it is, what's good and later so

13:11

the editing is very very minor. most he does

13:14

for the sake of clarity and a kate very

13:16

occasionally. To. Trim for space, but

13:18

typically just for clarity. All.

13:21

Of these are essentially

13:23

anonymous discussions. So.

13:25

People are identified by their

13:27

names which sometimes or pseudonyms

13:29

and the biographical information. Sometimes

13:32

is very specific and sometimes is not. Someone

13:34

might say. My. Name is Julie

13:36

and I'm from Massachusetts As opposed

13:38

to saying I'm from Brookline Massachussetts

13:40

insistence on has people will say

13:42

I'm in my eighties instead of

13:44

with Iran is unimportant. The broader

13:46

strokes are what's more important here.

13:48

It's important that people feel like.

13:51

They're free to express

13:53

themselves. Without. Worrying

13:55

that. They. reveal too much

13:57

them identifiable and to be an

13:59

example the minion we did with non-Jewish

14:01

spouses of Jews. We asked a couple

14:04

of questions about how they had been

14:06

welcomed into their in-laws families. And some

14:08

of them had negative experiences. Some of

14:10

them had very positive experiences. It was,

14:12

again, not universal. But

14:14

the ones who had negative

14:17

experiences were concerned because

14:20

they didn't want these things

14:22

to be read by their, say, mother-in-law now

14:25

that they have good relationships to realize that,

14:27

you know what, 30 years ago, when

14:30

I was first in your home, you said something that

14:32

really was insulting to me. I

14:35

want to hear that story so I understand what really happened,

14:37

but I want them to feel like it's

14:39

not going to come back and reverberate against them if

14:41

their mother-in-law reads this now and dredges up old history.

14:44

So it's important that people feel free

14:46

to speak honestly without worrying about their

14:48

identity being revealed. Because, again, the persons

14:50

we're interviewing are not people

14:52

in paid positions where they can

14:54

take public stances. These

14:57

are their private stories. They're really very,

14:59

very private. So when these

15:01

minions come out, we often run a little snippet

15:03

of them on unorthodox so our listeners can get

15:05

a taste of what they are and then, of

15:07

course, go to tablet to read them. We

15:09

hear one question all the time from people, which

15:11

is, why is this not

15:13

a podcast? I love this idea of

15:16

10 people talking and hearing their

15:18

conversation. And I will say, we

15:20

have asked you this before. Yes, this does

15:22

come up. There's a reason it's not a podcast.

15:24

It's also a reason that it's not videoed for

15:26

anyone to watch as a video because we do

15:28

it on Zoom. You could watch. It's

15:31

as interesting to watch as any Zoom is. When

15:34

people feel like they're being recorded,

15:37

they are more careful

15:39

and hesitant about what they say.

15:42

And they are also worried about being more

15:44

identifiable. People might recognize someone's

15:46

voice. They certainly recognize someone's face

15:48

if they saw it. And

15:51

sometimes the discussion is more as

15:53

any Zoom might be, is a

15:55

little more chaotic than it seems in the

15:58

end product. You're

16:00

telling me that ten Jews all respect when

16:02

each other starts and stops. Yeah, absolutely not.

16:06

There are a couple of instances actually in this

16:08

minion where it's clear when you

16:10

see it written out, but it would

16:12

be really, really clear if you heard it live,

16:15

where people are just talking over each other. And

16:17

if you wanted to listen, it'd be very, very

16:19

hard to understand what was happening. In

16:21

this particular minion, people get into discussions

16:24

about what certain Russian foods were

16:26

and are, and whether they're disgusting

16:29

or delicious, and what should be in

16:31

them, and how long a fruitcake should last. And

16:33

the discussion gets very, very heated. It's

16:35

actually more useful and illustrative if you tease

16:38

it out in print rather than just listen

16:40

to the jumble of conversation. Then

16:42

you also, it's the noise. The

16:45

noise that is part of any

16:47

spoken conversation, but it's

16:50

neater and easier to digest when you sit back

16:52

and read it and really contemplate it. I think

16:54

you get a lot out of reading it and

16:57

reading it again. Okay, fine.

16:59

So the other thing that you've done, which is

17:01

remarkable, is as much as you're thinking about accessibility

17:03

when you're planning these conversations, it also shows up

17:05

on the tail end as well. And

17:08

for the Jews with Disabilities feature, you

17:10

made that accessible to people with disabilities

17:13

on our website, right? Yes. And

17:15

we try to do this as much as possible. Sometimes

17:18

it's more relevant than others, but that's one of the

17:20

reasons why this minion is going to be translated into

17:22

Russian. People will be available as a PDF running alongside

17:24

the article. So if you want to read it in

17:26

Russian, you can read it in Russian. It

17:28

doesn't mean we're going to start publishing regularly in Russian, but

17:30

it does mean that this story seemed like the

17:33

one to run in another language so that

17:35

the most important people can read

17:38

it as comfortably as they possibly can. I love

17:40

that so much. And I'm so grateful to

17:42

you, Wayne Hoffman, and to Abigail Pogrebin for

17:44

putting this feature together and so tirelessly working

17:47

to help us understand what's

17:49

going on within our Jewish worlds.

17:51

And people come out of these

17:53

feeling like they actually learned something

17:56

About people who are members of their community

17:58

whose story they do. Don't know. Then.

18:02

I would she's we wanted to achieve And

18:04

I'll say as someone who organizes these. Every

18:07

single time. Every single time

18:09

I come out of these learning things

18:11

I did not already. Now I start

18:13

with a list of issues and questions

18:15

that I think will be the main

18:17

ones to address and. Inevitably,

18:20

Come out with twice as many questions

18:22

about subjects I didn't even realize we're

18:24

issues. For. This particular group of people

18:27

and that's why we need to do these

18:29

Honest. Has been set at all. the

18:31

Minions especially this latest one the changes

18:33

from the former Soviet Union at some

18:36

of and.com/minions But wait, there's more. Habit

18:38

is doing a special Zuma events that

18:40

looks at all the issues that team

18:42

up in this conversation of Jews from

18:45

the former Soviet Union that second place

18:47

on Thursday, May ninth at Twelve Eastern

18:49

and is open to all tablet numbers.

18:51

He's a bite out. More about this

18:54

event, A tablet my.com/soviet Jews. Unorthodox

18:59

has a production of toppled studios. The

19:01

show is normally hosted by Stephanie Budnick,

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the A Leibovitz and Joshua Molina or

19:05

executive producers Courtney His Lists and were

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produced an edited by mean Just Cross

19:09

with Robert Scare, Mutya, Quinn Waller, Nellie

19:11

Bly and our team also includes Tanya

19:13

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Know for. Eight Six not as my

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Shalom Friends.