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A

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big thanks to all of our undisclosed listeners

0:32

for being with us the past five years

0:34

and supporting us by supporting our sponsors,

0:36

please continue to do so. Undisclosed

0:39

started off with the Adnan SAD case

0:41

more than five years ago, and we still

0:43

aren't done with it. Adnan has been in prison

0:45

now for twenty one years and after losing his peels

0:48

last year is having to start over

0:50

again with a new appeal process. That's

0:52

right. We'll be back in court this fall.

0:55

We are not giving up on this fight.

0:57

But to help pay for this new appeal and

0:59

for all the new investigation that's being done on

1:01

the case, we have to relaunch his fundraising

1:03

campaign. There are three ways to support

1:06

Adnan. You can contribute any amount

1:08

once or as often as you like at launch good

1:10

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1:13

can also become a monthly supporter for as

1:15

little as a dollar a month at patreon dot

1:17

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1:19

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1:22

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1:24

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1:26

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1:28

slash free add on. If you didn't

1:30

catch those, don't worry. We'll put them in the show notes

1:33

and we'll post them on our social media as well.

1:35

We need your support now more than ever,

1:38

so thank you for it.

1:59

Hi. Welcome, and thanks for

2:02

joining us as we revisit our very

2:04

first season of undisclosed. the state versus

2:06

Adnan said. I'm Robbie Adnan, I'm

2:08

an attorney and author of the New York Times bus salariednan

2:10

story, and I'm here with my colleagues Susan

2:12

Simpson and Colin Miller.

2:14

Hi. I'm Susan Simpson. I'm an attorney

2:16

in Washington DC, and I blog at the

2:18

view from LL2 Hi. This is Colin Miller.

2:20

I'm an associate dean and professor at the University

2:22

of South Carolina School of Law and I blogged

2:24

evidence for profit law.

2:27

Back then, five years ago, we were hot

2:29

on the heels of the global hit podcast

2:31

cereal, which the three of us listened

2:33

to. To be clear, we didn't know each other

2:35

then, but we connected online as we started

2:37

reading each other's blogs about the case. That

2:40

led us to realizing that we really needed to

2:42

turn all that we had written and discovered

2:44

into our own podcast. And hence

2:46

undisclosed was born. We

2:48

didn't exactly have the kinds of skills necessary

2:50

then to produce a well crafted show,

2:52

but we tried. It didn't

2:54

all sound great though, especially at the beginning. So

2:57

after five years and many other cases,

2:59

we decided to go back and redo our

3:01

first three episodes because

3:03

now we've got some practice. and we've

3:05

got the incredible Rebecca LaVoy to help

3:07

make us

3:08

sound great. But

3:09

as we said the first time around, if you haven't

3:11

listened to cereal yet, do that first

3:14

and then come right back here. That

3:16

way, you'll have a good grasp of the story and

3:18

the people involved. Enjoy

3:20

our five year anniversary gift to you,

3:22

the listeners, and thanks again for all your

3:25

support.

3:44

We're

3:45

gonna begin our investigation. of what actually

3:47

happened on January thirteenth nineteen

3:49

ninety nine by starting with a nonstick.

3:52

What did he do in the very day that disappeared?

3:55

You may recall the very premise of the first episode

3:58

of the serial podcast was that it's

3:59

not easy to remember what you did six weeks

4:02

ago. And so

4:02

maybe that's why had none had trouble recalling what

4:05

he did in that very important day. It's

4:07

really hard to account for your time

4:09

in a detailed way, I mean. How'd you

4:11

get to work last Wednesday for instance? Drive,

4:14

walk, bike? Was it raining? Are

4:16

you sure? Did you go to any

4:18

stores that day? If so, what did you

4:20

buy? Who did you talk to? The

4:22

entire

4:22

day name every person

4:23

you talk to. It's

4:25

hard. Now imagine you

4:27

have to account for a day that happened six

4:29

weeks back because that's a situation in the

4:31

story I'm working

4:32

on in which a bunch of teenagers had to

4:34

recall a day

4:34

six weeks earlier. And it was

4:37

nineteen

4:37

ninety nine, so they had to do it without the benefit

4:39

of texts

4:39

or Facebook or Instagram.

4:41

Just for a look, I asked some teenagers to try

4:43

it. Do

4:43

you remember what you did on that Friday?

4:46

The Not nitro.

4:49

I can't remember anything. Wait.

4:52

Nothing? No. I can't

4:54

remember anything that far back.

4:56

I'm pretty I'm pretty I'm pretty sure

4:58

I was in school. I think, no?

5:04

So that's as cereal set up the story,

5:06

that it not couldn't remember what he did in the day that

5:08

his ex girlfriend went missing. That

5:10

of course launched a million questions about

5:12

his whereabouts and created a lot of suspicion

5:15

around him. Putting

5:16

aside the fact that cereal didn't attempt to answer

5:18

the question they raised about what Adan

5:20

was doing. The real problem in the premise

5:22

was this, And not and did in fact

5:24

remember much, if not most of his day.

5:27

So we're gonna end to the question that Cyrille left

5:30

unanswered. What was

5:31

it nonsense he had doing on January thirteenth

5:33

nineteen ninety nine? We

5:37

know that Hammond Lee was in school at Woodland

5:39

High School that day. and we

5:41

believe she left school shortly after the

5:43

last bell at two fifteen PM.

5:45

But she never made it to pick up her young

5:47

cousin from another school. That's

5:51

also the state's theory. Remember,

5:53

they believe that he was intercepted by

5:55

a nun and killed by two thirty

5:56

six PM. which is

5:58

when they alleged that Anand made a call

6:00

to Jay from Best Buy. The

6:02

come and get me call.

6:04

Later, if they say, and Jay dropped

6:06

a non back off

6:07

at school to go to track practice

6:09

and

6:09

then picked them up again later in the evening.

6:11

Together, Anon and

6:13

Jay buried hay in Lincoln Park shortly after

6:15

seven PM. That,

6:17

according to the state, is when a

6:19

non cellphone ping towers in Lincoln

6:21

Park. To

6:24

figure

6:24

out what really happened in this case, it's

6:27

vital to determine where a nun was

6:29

on January thirteenth. And

6:31

believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence

6:33

to show where he was for most of the day.

6:36

We've picked four time periods in that day to look

6:38

at. the actual school day, that

6:41

afternoon, after school was let out,

6:43

later on, that afternoon, during track practice,

6:45

and that evening after Jay picked it

6:47

on up from track. So

6:49

let's start by looking at the very first time

6:52

period, the

6:52

school day.

6:56

Just to lay out the timeline again, Hayman

6:58

Lee disappeared on January thirteenth nineteen

7:00

ninety nine. Her body was found on

7:02

February ninth nineteen ninety nine,

7:05

and Adnan was arrested on February twenty

7:07

eight. nineteen ninety nine. Adnan

7:09

was originally represented by attorneys

7:11

Chris Florr and Doug Colbert were his bail

7:13

hearings. They quickly realized they

7:15

needed to hand over case to someone with

7:17

this level of trial experience, and

7:19

so attorney Christina Gutierrez was hired

7:21

within a matter of months. The

7:23

earliest document we have that reflect

7:26

Adnan's recollection of January thirteenth

7:28

nineteen ninety nine come from July

7:30

thirteenth attorney notes, which are handwritten

7:33

and you can find the document on our website

7:35

under episode documents. These notes

7:37

were taken by Gutierrez's Law clerk.

7:40

Here are what the notes say.

7:42

School start bell rang at

7:44

seven fifty AM. First

7:46

period photography seven fifty

7:48

to nine fifteen AM AP

7:51

English or social studies from nine twenty

7:53

to twelve forty five. Now,

7:55

just so you know, Woodland High School operated

7:57

on A or B Day schedules and

7:59

the days alternated. According to

8:01

these notes, January thirteenth was an

8:03

A Day. so

8:04

a Don would have had AP English. The

8:07

notes go on to read lunch

8:09

ten fifty to eleven fifteen AM,

8:11

went to Jay's house. free

8:14

period. Eleven twenty to twelve

8:16

forty five. State

8:18

at Day's house.

8:19

AP Psychology twelve fifty

8:22

to two fifteen. Two fifteen,

8:24

school ends. There

8:27

are also typewritten detective notes taken

8:29

sometime soon after Adnan was arrested.

8:31

Presumably that chronicle Adnan stay at

8:34

school, and they pretty much corroborate

8:36

these attorney notes. The note

8:38

say that Adnan was present for first

8:40

period photography from seven fifteen AM to nine

8:42

forty five AM, and for second

8:44

period English from nine fifteen to

8:46

ten forty. and then there was lunch

8:48

and free period until the last class

8:50

psychology from twelve fifty

8:52

to two fifteen PM. About

8:54

that class though, the detective notes

8:56

indicate the teacher saying, quote,

8:58

pretty sure he was there. He was there

9:00

most days. Then on

9:02

the very bottom of the page, it says,

9:04

host as a question, two

9:06

thirty six, call to j on

9:09

cell phone,

9:13

Finally, there's one more document from August

9:16

twenty fifth nineteen ninety nine. in

9:18

which Ynon hand writes apparently for his

9:20

attorney what he was doing on January

9:22

thirteenth. In this document,

9:24

Ynon says he arrived at school at

9:26

seven forty five AM, Attendant

9:28

first created photography from seven

9:30

fifty to nine fifteen AM. Went

9:32

to second create AP English from nine

9:34

twenty to ten forty five AM.

9:36

We gave Stephanie McPherson, Jay Wilde's girlfriend,

9:38

a stuffed teddy bear for her birthday.

9:41

At ten fifty, the lunch period begins

9:43

in the nonrights quote, Left

9:45

school went to Jay's house, don't

9:47

know what we did, came back

9:48

to school at twelve forty, let Jay

9:50

borrow my car, sofa and glove

9:52

compartment. At twelve

9:53

forty, it not notes that he went to the guidance

9:55

counselor's office to get a college recommendation

9:57

letter and then he arrived to his last

9:59

class psychology A few minutes

10:01

after it started at twelve fifty PM and

10:03

that he was there until it ended at

10:05

two fifteen PM.

10:08

So you

10:08

have three different documents now that seem to line up

10:10

with each other. There are two of them come from

10:12

Manon himself, which means we

10:13

need to see if there are any other witness statements

10:15

that corroborate the schedule.

10:18

Before

10:18

we start looking at witness statements though,

10:20

it's worth noting, we've got about as

10:22

many stories about what happened on January

10:24

thirteenth as we've got witnesses.

10:26

Luckily, we've

10:26

only got really two witnesses that gave

10:29

statements about the school day.

10:32

but surprising

10:34

to get conflicting witness statements because there's

10:36

a memory deficit known as confabulation.

10:39

This is taking events that

10:41

occurred across multiple days and

10:43

believing they all occurred in one single

10:45

day. Happens in courtrooms across the

10:47

country every single day. And it's something to

10:49

keep in mind as you're looking to the witness

10:51

statements in DeNan's trial. The

10:54

fact that a witness remembers an event

10:56

occurring on a certain date isn't great proof

10:58

that it actually did occur then.

11:00

especially when the witness wasn't asked about it until

11:03

months later, which is what happened

11:05

here. So for any

11:05

given statement in this case, It

11:07

shouldn't be accepted that the witness's actual

11:10

remembering events that occurred on January

11:12

thirteenth without some sort of independent

11:14

corroboration beyond that witness's

11:16

own statements. That by the

11:18

way is good practice for all witness

11:20

statements in all cases.

11:26

The two

11:27

witnesses who gave statements about

11:29

Adnan's whereabouts during the school day were

11:32

Debbie Warren and Krista renters.

11:34

Classmates of Hainan. Debbie

11:36

recalled seeing a non twice that day once

11:38

in the morning and then after school.

11:40

According to her, Anon

11:43

arrived a bit late to first period that

11:45

morning, and she says that they had

11:47

social science for second period together.

11:50

except as we noted earlier, that

11:52

day was a b day on the school schedule.

11:55

And on b days, they didn't have

11:57

social science. They had English. And

11:59

that's when

11:59

Anand gave Stephanie a birthday present.

12:01

So Debbie is definitely wrong

12:04

about at least one detail about that

12:06

day. Then there's Krista

12:08

who says she recalls walking in the

12:10

school with a non that morning and that they were

12:12

both on time, not late. that she

12:14

says is when she heard Adnan ask

12:16

hey for a ride after school.

12:18

Adnan was on time for school that day and I feel like we

12:20

may have

12:20

even walked in school together And

12:22

I remember that hay was because

12:25

photography class was right across the hall from the

12:27

steps to go down to the next floor, and

12:29

hay was there, and that's when they had

12:31

the conversation. about the ride.

12:33

And I am creepy enough where I've

12:35

checked where locations were in the school and

12:37

her hall records. And, yeah, she was

12:39

right down the whole way

12:41

for my first period. They had a really quick

12:43

conversation, but it was kinda like

12:46

Adnan said to her, hey, do you

12:48

think you can give me a ride after school? And she said,

12:50

yeah. No problem. You know, I'll talk to you

12:52

later. And that was pretty

12:54

much it.

13:00

Krista

13:00

correctly recalled that January

13:02

thirteenth was a b day.

13:04

It's still possible that Krista is remembering

13:07

some day other than thirteenth, but

13:09

based on events that occurred later that

13:11

day, And in the week's following,

13:14

her memory is on more solid footing than that

13:16

of many of her classmates. And

13:18

side note, as anyone who may have

13:20

seen the h documentary, the case against an

13:22

Nazi ad may have seen. Krista is a

13:24

methodical record keeper.

13:26

It

13:29

seems pretty solid to conclude that

13:31

Anad was in school that day, all

13:33

day. And they left during lunch and

13:35

free period to CJ Wiles. but

13:37

then returned for his final class.

13:40

And none of this by the

13:42

way is contested by the state in any

13:44

way. So at least between the

13:46

hours of seven fifty AM and two

13:48

fifteen PM, everyone's on the

13:50

same page. but

13:51

that doesn't last for

13:53

long.

14:09

Next,

14:14

let's examine the period of time

14:16

immediately after school. right after

14:18

dismissal at two fifteen PM. This

14:20

of course is a vital period because

14:22

it's during this time that Hammond Lee

14:24

disappears. We have two

14:27

witnesses who recall seeing Adnan either

14:29

at or immediately after the end of

14:31

school at two fifteen PM. The

14:33

first of those is Classmate Becky.

14:35

She recalls walking to the guidance

14:37

council's office at about two twenty

14:39

PM. She was accompanied by

14:41

Aisha, her friends, and possibly

14:43

Christa. While walking to the

14:45

hallway, Becky recalls seeing Adnan and Hay

14:47

walking in opposite directions, and

14:49

briefly making contact. In reference

14:51

to the ride request mentioned by Christa

14:54

before, Becky recalls, hey, saying

14:56

to Adnan, Oh, no. I can't take

14:58

you. I have something else to do. She

15:00

didn't say what else. And

15:02

in response, Becky recalls a

15:04

non saying, Okay. I'll just

15:06

ask someone else. When

15:08

she testified a trial, however,

15:10

an important part of the story was missing.

15:12

She was asked by defense counsel what she recalled,

15:14

hey, saying immediately after the end of school.

15:17

According to Becky, quote, she just said

15:19

that she had to be somewhere after school.

15:21

She didn't tell me where she was going,

15:23

but she said she had to leave. Becky

15:26

then recalled, hey, heading to the door that led

15:28

to her car. Unfortunately,

15:30

a trial gutierrez failed us to get Becky

15:32

to testify to what she had said in her

15:35

statement earlier that he told

15:37

Adnan that she had somewhere to go and

15:39

Adnan had bonded that he would look elsewhere for a

15:41

ride. Now when Becky

15:43

was interviewed by Sarah Koenig for serial in

15:45

two thousand fourteen, she was read

15:47

her statement about Hey, saying to

15:49

Adnan that couldn't give him a ride because she had

15:51

something else to do. In response,

15:53

Becky said, okay, yeah, that

15:55

sounds right. It kind of all

15:57

comes back a little

15:58

bit. This takes

16:01

us to Ayesha and Christa. The other

16:03

two people mentioned in Becky's police statement.

16:05

I

16:06

usually was called as a witness for the prosecution

16:08

and trial. When

16:09

asked about seeing hay at the end of school,

16:11

she responded, yes, I

16:13

remember seeing her. When that's what

16:14

she was doing, her response is, I

16:16

saw her talking to Adnan. Now the

16:19

prosecution

16:19

uses this evidence as part of

16:21

its closing argument. to prove it non

16:23

had to kill hay. After

16:25

all, he'd asked for a ride earlier in the

16:27

day, I used to

16:28

saw the two talking at end of class.

16:30

Unless something strange happened in those next few minutes,

16:33

it's reasonable to believe it none got that

16:35

ride. And at the end of that ride,

16:37

killed hay. There's only

16:39

one problem and that problem comes in the form

16:41

of Christa. Here's

16:42

why. We don't know what Ayesha

16:44

told the police. The report

16:45

of her interview was very brief and wasn't

16:47

even written till two and a half weeks later.

16:50

All it says that Ayesha saw

16:52

hay that afternoon at two fifteen

16:54

PM, and that he was in good

16:56

spirits, and she did not mention any

16:58

problems. Based

16:59

on that report, you think that Ayesha hadn't really

17:01

seen anything relevant to this case.

17:03

But

17:03

Krista talked to Ayesha early in the evening on

17:05

January thirteenth, and she says

17:07

Ayesha did see something important.

17:09

When I when we were

17:12

talking, she said that she had heard from his

17:14

brother and that they couldn't find

17:16

hey. So when

17:18

I explain to you in first period of class,

17:20

I heard Adnan S. Take for Ride.

17:22

Has anybody talked to him? And she's

17:25

like, well, No. But

17:27

in psychology, she said that something came up

17:29

and she wasn't able to get right anymore, so she

17:31

didn't take them anywhere after school. Krista's

17:33

statement is pretty shocking.

17:35

The

17:35

Juries at Nons trial were given every reason to

17:38

believe he requests a ride from

17:40

hay. The

17:40

haired to give him that ride. Unless

17:42

something strange happened, he

17:44

received that ride. As

17:45

it turns out, if you believe some

17:48

combination of the statements by Christa, Ayesha,

17:50

and Becky, something

17:51

came up for hay toward the end of the

17:53

day. She had somewhere else to be or something else to do. And

17:55

unless Adnan was able to get into her car

17:57

by hook or by crook, that ride

17:59

didn't

17:59

take place. Now,

18:03

the question

18:06

is, if defense council asked

18:08

any of these witnesses about something coming

18:10

up or hay, would they have provided testimony that helped

18:12

the non? Certainly seems to be the case, but

18:15

with witnesses you never know, and

18:17

never is that more clearer than

18:19

when the two witnesses who apparently saw a nun after the immediate

18:21

aftermath of school, Debbie, and

18:23

of course, Asia McLean.

18:27

the chronology

18:28

of events, if we are to believe

18:30

both Asia and Debbie, Asia

18:32

saw a nun before Debbie did.

18:36

Now most of you are likely familiar with

18:38

Asia and her statements regarding that

18:40

afternoon, but let's quickly review.

18:42

Asia, you might recall, is the alibi witness

18:45

who says that she saw a nod at the library that

18:47

afternoon, and that she sent letters

18:49

to a nod to that effect on March first and

18:51

March right after his

18:53

arrest. Her alibi was

18:55

one of Anand's two claims of

18:57

ineffective assistance of counsel. Based on

18:59

Gutierrez' failure to

19:01

contact her, which a nonloss last year

19:03

in twenty nineteen after the highest court

19:05

in Maryland ruled against the

19:06

claim. Asia's

19:09

story has been consistent throughout the years,

19:11

though. In her letters, in the affidavit

19:13

she wrote to Robbie in two thousand,

19:15

in her book, and when she testified in

19:17

Non's post conviction hearing in twenty sixteen.

19:20

She recalled entering the Woodland public library after

19:23

school and seeing a nun sitting at a

19:25

computer. They chatted for

19:27

a bit, Then her boyfriend and his friend

19:29

came to pick her up. There was

19:31

a snowstorm that night and schools

19:33

closed for the next two days. Asia

19:36

believes that she saw a non at the library between

19:38

two twenty pm and two forty pm.

19:40

This lines

19:41

up with the non's recollections as

19:44

well. In his post

19:46

conviction review proceeding in twenty

19:49

ten and not testified to

19:51

the following, He remembers going

19:53

to the library on January thirteenth.

19:55

He was there to check his email. He remembers

19:57

his being January thirteenth because the next two

19:59

days January fourteenth, January fifteenth were

20:01

snow days. And while they're at

20:03

the library, he recalls seeing Asia

20:06

McLean and are then boyfriend. According

20:08

to a nun, he was at the library until

20:10

three PM when he left to

20:12

start getting ready for track practice. and

20:15

track practice star at three thirty. And

20:18

that testimony from Anon is consistent with

20:20

the story he told nineteen ninety nine. From

20:22

the notes we mentioned earlier that

20:25

were when he was visited by Goodyear's as LawClick.

20:29

There was more information in those

20:31

notes too. At the top of the

20:33

document, we haven't know what about Anon working

20:35

together with Debbie to put together a

20:37

school assembly memorial for

20:39

hay. And at the bottom, we have

20:41

a non school schedule from January thirteenth,

20:43

which we already went over.

20:45

And perhaps most importantly, in the

20:47

middle of this document, We have

20:49

a series of four notations.

20:58

first

20:58

notation is a non email address

21:00

as well as the password, poppy.

21:02

This password was created by hay because

21:04

it was her pet name that she used

21:07

for him. The second notation says January

21:09

fourteenth to January fifteenth snow

21:11

days. The third notation

21:13

says, Asian Queen saw him in the

21:15

library at three o'clock. Asia's

21:17

boyfriend saw him too. And the

21:19

fourth notation says, track starts

21:21

at three thirty. So

21:24

now we have cooperation between Adnan

21:26

and Asia's recollections, at least to the extent

21:28

that they saw each other at the school and the

21:31

library. which takes us to movements after leaving

21:33

the library. Indemnity

21:36

statements to detectives on March

21:38

twenty sixth of that year, she recalled seeing a

21:41

non after school on January thirteenth

21:43

nineteen ninety nine at about two

21:45

forty five PM at the guidance

21:47

counselor's office. with some other

21:49

students. She recalled a nun

21:51

having his gym bag and talking about him

21:53

going to

21:53

track practice. that same

21:55

interview, Debbie recalled seeing, hey, between

21:57

two forty five PM and three fifteen PM

21:59

on the afternoon of thirteenth. But

22:01

we will take a to look at whether

22:03

Debbie's memory was right or wrong about saying hey

22:05

after school in next week's episode when

22:08

we cover Hay's

22:09

Day. That said,

22:11

by the time the trial rolled around,

22:13

the prosecution has altogether written

22:15

Debbie out of establishing the timeline.

22:18

and she actually doesn't testify to any of these claims

22:20

about saying Adnan or Hay after school

22:22

because that would ruin

22:24

the state's case. Remember the state claims

22:26

that a non strangled hay in the Best Buy

22:28

parking lot by two thirty six

22:31

PM, and then he called Jay to pick

22:33

him up. So putting both Adnan and

22:35

Hay at school after the state says

22:37

she's already been killed, well

22:39

obviously that couldn't work. At

22:41

the first trial, the prosecution does

22:43

put Debbie on the stand, but

22:46

primarily to testify about Adnan and

22:48

Hay's relationship, to read from Hayes

22:50

diary. During cross examination,

22:53

Gutierrez covers largely the

22:55

same grounds. She says she has no further

22:57

questions, but suddenly at that point, Gutierrez

22:59

has a bit of a Columbus moment.

23:01

She pulls out the March

23:02

twenty six statement saying that she has just

23:04

one more question. and

23:06

she asks Debbie, quote, do you recall

23:08

telling detectives that you saw Adnan to the

23:10

guidance counselor's office at two forty five PM

23:12

on January thirteenth? Debbie's

23:16

response? Yes.

23:21

It's hard

23:21

to underscore how important this test

23:23

money would have been had a non's first

23:25

trial ended Nigeria verdict. Here we

23:27

have

23:27

a prosecution witness becoming

23:29

an alibi witness. You

23:31

may recall though the first trial didn't end in the jury

23:33

verdict and in a mistrial after the

23:35

judge referred to Gutierrez as a liar.

23:37

So what happened at

23:38

the second trial? About

23:40

two months

23:40

later, Debbie is again called as a witness

23:43

for the prosecution. Again,

23:44

the prosecution's claim

23:46

that had been killed by two thirty six

23:49

PM. And again, the prosecution

23:51

writes Debbie out of the timeline. Well,

23:53

on cross examination, good ears

23:55

again pulls out the statement from March twenty six

23:57

to cross examine Debbie about it. Here are

23:59

the

23:59

two most important q and a's from that

24:02

cross examination. And you told him you saw a

24:04

dawn of that day referring to the

24:06

thirteenth before he went to practice. I

24:08

don't remember. And you recall that you

24:10

also told him that you spoke to him and some

24:12

other kids No. And

24:14

that's the

24:14

difference between guilt and innocence. So

24:17

why

24:17

did Debbie change her testimony? Was it

24:19

because she was wrong at the first trial?

24:21

Well, there's more to Debbie's March twenty

24:23

six police statement. At first, Debbie

24:25

is quite certain that she saw it on

24:28

January thirteenth. Later in her

24:30

statements to detectives, however, she

24:32

says, could have been the day before, could have been

24:34

the day after. Again, there's

24:35

a problem though. The

24:37

day before on January

24:39

twelve, Woodland didn't have practice.

24:41

They'd attract me and Debbie specifically remembered

24:43

a nun being on his way to practice.

24:46

The day after January thirteenth, January

24:48

fourteenth was a snow day. There was no

24:50

school and therefore no track practice.

24:54

The question becomes did Debbie have the

24:56

right day? Did she see a nine? Did she

24:59

see him around two forty five PM?

25:01

And when that have exonerated a nine had she

25:03

given this test to initiate the

25:05

second trial? It's very possible. If Debbie simply

25:06

repeated her testimony from the first trial at

25:09

the second trial, we would have had a not

25:11

guilty verdict Nen

25:13

might very well have been an innocent

25:15

man.

25:26

This

25:28

takes us to the third period we want to examine,

25:30

the late afternoon when Anon says

25:32

he was a track practice.

25:34

For the record, no one has ever

25:37

alleged that Anon did not go to track practice

25:39

that day. Jay says that

25:41

he dropped off a track practice and it's part of the

25:43

state's timeline. And

25:44

of course, and not himself says he did go to track

25:45

that day. The real question

25:48

here is, when did practice begin?

25:50

When did it end? And

25:52

when did a non get there?

25:54

These aren't small details. They're actually

25:56

really important. According

25:59

to a non, He

26:00

went to track practice when it started. And then when

26:02

it was over, Jay picked him up from school.

26:05

Anand says that he never saw Jay

26:07

between the time that he gave Jay his car during

26:09

the lunch break until after track

26:11

practice when Jake came back to campus to get

26:13

him. But if we

26:15

were to believe Jay or at least some

26:17

versions of Jay's story, After

26:19

he picked up a non from Best Buy after the

26:21

two thirty six PM call, they

26:23

ditched his car and then drove around,

26:26

went to Pavska Park, smoked

26:30

weed, and then eventually Jay

26:32

dropped a non off of track practice and picked

26:34

him

26:35

up after. In

26:37

every version of Jay's stories though,

26:38

he says they dropped a

26:39

non off at track practice late that

26:41

day. In fact, he says, he dropped a

26:43

non off there, as much as

26:45

an hour,

26:46

if not longer, after it started. Which

26:48

time do you take them back to school?

26:50

I don't recall what time was going down.

26:52

On

26:56

January thirteenth nineteen ninety

26:59

nine, sunset was at 504

27:01

PM. So according to Jay's

27:03

story, a non left Patsco State Park

27:05

for practice at around four thirty PM

27:07

to five PM. Of course,

27:10

Jay also seems to think that track practice ended

27:12

at six forty five PM, when the

27:14

coach says it ended at five thirty.

27:16

didn't know what time to get by. He called me on the cell phone and

27:18

get you recall what time

27:20

he called you? Mhmm. Maybe,

27:25

like, he's twenty five

27:27

dead. In his

27:27

second interview with the cops,

27:30

Jay doesn't say what time Anand went

27:32

to practice. But based on the phone

27:34

calls that he says a nun received as they were

27:36

driving into Woodland High School, a

27:38

nun didn't shop for track until after

27:40

five PM. Here's how Jay

27:42

describes or released tries to

27:44

describe the trip back from Topska State

27:46

Park to

27:46

Woodland High School. We leave

27:49

there. I

27:51

believe. She's there with

27:54

me from there after. Oh,

27:56

okay. I'll go out there.

28:00

I take

28:02

him

28:04

I took him back to

28:06

school and I

28:08

dropped him off. Jay does that a

28:10

lot by the way. That thing where he sounds

28:12

like an actor who's forgotten the

28:14

next line. Luckily, the

28:17

detectives were always willing to help

28:19

him out. They give them time to think

28:21

about it. They give them hints,

28:23

suggestions, reminders. Their

28:26

influence can likely be seen in the fact that by the

28:28

time of the second interview, And

28:30

Jay's story about when track ended,

28:32

moves closer to the truth. I

28:34

remember the track records got out

28:36

at about forty to six, so that's when

28:38

I left. And how

28:39

do you know that it yeah. I still had a cell phone.

28:41

He called me. He called you. Yes.

28:44

We can count

28:44

on one hand the number of things that

28:47

Jay has been consistent about in

28:49

every stories ever told. But here's one

28:51

of those things. Jay has maintained

28:53

from the start that Anand was late to

28:55

track practice

28:56

that day. He talked about

28:58

in Anything that he had to do with

29:01

practice? He just said he had to run a run.

29:03

He he had to run. Yeah. And then he was

29:05

late. Mhmm. Getting

29:08

there? Yeah. But

29:08

even though Jay's

29:11

story is consistent here, it's

29:13

still wrong. Jay

29:15

wasn't just wrong about an on being

29:17

late or what time practice ended, which we'll get into in a

29:19

minute. He's also wrong about

29:21

Anon having to run quote

29:22

unquote a lot. because

29:25

Adnan definitely wasn't running a lot that

29:27

day. It was

29:28

Ramadan and he was fasting.

29:30

just

29:32

one of the different details that his coach,

29:34

Michael Tsai, remembered about practice

29:36

that day. Coach Tsai gave a statement

29:38

to the police on March twenty third, nineteen

29:41

ninety nine. We don't have an audio recording or

29:43

transcript, but what we have are typed

29:45

police notes from that meeting. According

29:47

to Saia, the runners met on the track,

29:49

and he usually arrives around

29:51

three thirty PM, which is what Adnan's attorney notes

29:54

also say, track at three thirty

29:56

PM. Saia told the

29:58

detective that practice usually ran until five

30:00

thirty, but sometimes went as long as six

30:02

or

30:02

six thirty. The note say

30:04

that while Saia couldn't remember exactly what

30:06

happened on January thirteenth and he didn't

30:08

take written attendance, Adnan

30:11

usually came to practice every

30:13

day. During Ramadan though,

30:15

Saia wouldn't let Adnan actually practice. He

30:17

would just send him on a jog instead.

30:19

And the last time he remembered talking to Adnan about

30:21

anything specific was a conversation they

30:24

had about Ramadhan. Seid

30:27

told the police in his March twenty third

30:29

interview that another investigator, a

30:31

white male, had actually come to him

30:33

earlier and told him, that Adnan had said he

30:35

had this conversation with his

30:37

coach on Wednesday, January thirteenth.

30:39

Saia had apparently asked Adnan a general

30:42

question. But he had gotten a

30:44

fairly detailed response from Adnan,

30:46

who told him all about the purpose of fasting,

30:48

how families broke their fast together,

30:50

and that Adnan would be leading prayers at the

30:52

mosque the following day. And there

30:55

is both a mosque schedule and

30:57

testimony from mosque officials confirming Anon

30:59

did lead prayers the following day for a

31:01

youth group. Sai remembered a

31:03

few specific things about that day.

31:05

First, that is conversation happened towards

31:07

the end of Ramadan. And second,

31:10

that it was a warm day in the

31:12

fifties, which is why they had outdoor

31:14

That year, the month of Ramadan

31:16

began on December sixteenth nineteen ninety

31:18

eight, and it ended on January

31:20

nineteenth nineteen ninety nine.

31:23

so we can assume this conversation took place

31:25

in the second half of Ramadan

31:27

between January fourth and the nineteenth.

31:29

During the last two

31:31

weeks of Ramadan, there

31:33

were

31:33

only four days on which the temperatures went above

31:36

forty degrees. January

31:38

twelfth, the thirteenth, general

31:40

eighteenth and the nineteenth. On

31:42

those four days, the weather reached

31:44

the fifties. Now again, just

31:46

so we can be clear on the timeline and

31:48

according to the track schedule for that

31:51

season. On January twelfth, there

31:53

was a track meet, a meet that

31:55

they won, and the coach side was

31:57

present at. So this

31:59

conversation between him and Adnan could not have

32:01

taken place on the twelfth.

32:03

On the thirteenth, they had practice.

32:06

Schools closed that Thursday, Friday, the fourteenth and

32:08

fifteenth because of the

32:08

ice storm. And

32:10

then there's the weekend, the sixteenth and the

32:12

seventeenth. That Monday,

32:13

January eighteenth was Martin Luther King

32:15

Day,

32:15

and again, school was closed, which

32:18

leaves Tuesday, January nineteenth.

32:21

as not only the last warm day in

32:23

Ramadan, but in fact, the very final day

32:25

of Ramadan itself. And it was

32:27

a

32:27

practice day. So

32:30

either Adnan had this conversation with

32:32

coach Tsai on Wednesday, January thirteenth

32:34

or on Tuesday, January

32:37

nineteenth. But if

32:40

it not told

32:40

the coach that to be leading prayers the next

32:42

day, then it couldn't have been January nineteenth.

32:45

because Ramadan ended that very

32:48

day. There

32:48

were no Ramadan

32:50

prayers. And

32:50

that Nana probably would have told him that if it was the

32:52

final day of Ramadan, not that they were near the

32:54

end of the month. By process

32:57

elimination, if what Coach Star members is

32:59

true, then the only day that

33:01

conversation could have taken place was the

33:03

very day that he disappeared. January

33:06

thirteenth. One last in the Klutz I remembered

33:08

about that day that he had the conversation with

33:10

Adnan.

33:10

Adnan had arrived on time and left

33:13

on time. means

33:14

that one consistent detail that Jay stuck

33:16

to that had none

33:17

was late to practice wasn't true.

33:19

After

33:20

all, anyone knew when Track Pectus began

33:22

and ended, it would be the coach.

33:24

And according to Saia, Track Pectus

33:26

began at three thirty and usually

33:28

ended at five thirty PM.

33:30

all of which means for

33:32

the believe Jay, he dropped the non

33:34

office track around five PM, which had

33:36

been only about half an hour before practice

33:39

ended. It's unlikely that the coach would have recorded

33:41

non being there on time if he showed

33:43

up that late. Unfortunately, this

33:45

didn't help but non much a trial.

33:47

While Saia did testify that Adnan was expected

33:50

to be a track practice every day and he

33:52

was even during Ramadan. Gutierrez

33:54

didn't point tried a pinpoint

33:56

size seeing it none on the thirteenth.

33:59

We're not sure

33:59

if

33:59

Gutierrez didn't realize the coach's size had seen him

34:02

attract that day. It

34:04

could be she never received copies of the police

34:06

note that show January thirteenth was the only day

34:08

he could have been talking about, or maybe

34:10

she did

34:10

get them and didn't understand their importance.

34:13

One thing

34:13

we do know is that investigators never

34:15

spoke to Saia. So just like

34:18

Asia, Gudir

34:18

has missed a massive opportunity to

34:20

present another strong credible alibi for

34:22

Adnan that afternoon. Coach

34:24

Saia had a very specific incredible memory

34:26

of Adnan not being late for practice that

34:28

day. Although Jay's stories make up in variety what they lack in credibility,

34:30

there's no reason to credit any of

34:32

his versions of events over this singular

34:34

statement given by coach's side.

34:38

Adnamazone was certainly a practice that day and on

34:40

time. And by his coach's judgment,

34:43

acting totally normal.

34:55

And this

34:59

takes

35:01

us to the final time period

35:03

that we're examining. It nods movements after track practice and

35:05

for the rest of the evening. Just to

35:08

quickly recap though, this date

35:10

based upon

35:12

Jay's statements, alleged

35:13

a trial that at the track

35:15

practice? And Naughn and

35:16

J went to the apartment of a young woman

35:18

named Christy Benson, AKA

35:20

not a real name

35:22

Kathy. And while

35:22

they were there, and Nong got a phone call from the police, alerting him to

35:25

the fact that

35:25

they were now looking

35:28

for hey. So a

35:30

nine and j left Kristi Vincent's

35:32

house and went to pick up

35:33

Haysabann and Carr. They then drove

35:35

to Lincoln Park to bury

35:37

her. And after barring her, they met Jen at

35:39

the mall parking

35:40

lot, where non drop Jay off.

35:42

Or at least

35:43

that's how things go according to

35:45

Jay's many versions

35:46

of events well as Jen's own versions of

35:48

events, if you were to condense them all

35:50

into a sort of common denominator version

35:53

of the story.

35:54

As for His memories of

35:57

what happened that day are less

35:57

clear following track practice.

36:00

Why? Because it

36:00

wasn't until nine months later that Anon

36:03

and his attorneys even found out that

36:05

anything that took place after four or five PM was even relevant to the state's

36:08

case. Up until the

36:10

trial, they knew nothing about

36:12

Jay's narrative. or about the Lincoln

36:14

Park Pings and the burial

36:16

timeline, or about the visit that Jay said they

36:18

made that night to Chris's apartment

36:20

after track. trial,

36:22

the

36:22

state claimed that Anand and Jay had

36:24

gone to Christie Benson's house together at

36:27

about six PM. But Christy

36:29

wasn't even disclosed as a witness until September, one month before

36:31

the scheduled trial date. It

36:34

wasn't until the actual

36:36

trial at itself that Anad

36:38

and his defense team learned how Christie fit

36:40

into their narrative and what she had to

36:42

say. The plot twist

36:44

here

36:45

is this. that a

36:46

nun never went to Christi's

36:47

apartment. On the contrary, he does

36:50

remember going to her place with Jay

36:52

just once.

36:54

which is also what Kristy remembers, that Anon

36:56

came over to her place with Jay

37:00

once. After all, Anon

37:01

didn't know Kristy. He

37:04

didn't really know Jen either. But

37:06

Christie and Jen were friends and that's how

37:08

Jay knew Christie. But according

37:09

to a nod, while he

37:12

does remember going

37:12

to Christie's one time with Jay, he

37:14

does

37:15

not remember what date it

37:17

took place on. What Anand

37:18

does remember is that when he got that call from the

37:20

police on the evening of January thirteenth, where they

37:22

were asking him if he knew where

37:25

him and Lee was,

37:26

He

37:27

was in his car and he was not in Christie's apartment.

37:29

What a non member is his reaching cast j

37:30

to get the phone from a glove

37:33

compartment where

37:33

it'd been kept.

37:36

contrast,

37:36

here's what Jay says during a police interview

37:38

about where non

37:39

was when the cops called him. Well,

37:41

he gets a call from the

37:43

officer. I mean, Where are you guys?

37:45

Are you open to parking lot? You know, we're at a

37:48

restaurant in Kentucky. Where

37:50

exactly what what's the name of the restaurant?

37:52

I'm, like, in the comments. I'm

37:54

on those. Then again, Jay also says this.

37:56

Then a few minutes later, he

37:58

got a call from the police

37:59

department, then

38:02

And that's I

38:03

didn't know. I had not got a call from the

38:05

police department because that's what he does. He called the

38:07

phone away and searched the police. And at that time,

38:09

I started paying it.

38:12

Were you inside the apartment or outside the

38:14

apartment? We were just leaving. We were stepping from the

38:16

four year into the hallway. The

38:19

most significant point

38:22

when it comes to the question of whether Jay

38:24

and Anand went to Christie's on January thirteenth, is this? Neither

38:27

Jay nor

38:28

Jen said that Anon to

38:30

Christie's in their first statements to the police.

38:32

In fact, in Jay's

38:33

first story, he never mentioned visiting

38:36

Christie or her boyfriend, Jeff,

38:38

at all. By trial

38:39

though, Jay has gone from saying that he made

38:40

zero trips to Christi's to saying that he made

38:42

three trips to Christi's that day. once

38:46

at about four thirty pm, and once at about six pm, and

38:49

once at about ten pm.

38:51

And Jay says it was during

38:53

the second trip to Christie's that

38:55

the call from the police came to none while they were over

38:57

at her house.

39:02

So where did these three new trips

39:03

appear from? Well, it turns out the cops

39:06

initially made some mistakes interpreting the

39:08

cell data, which led them to conclude that Jay

39:10

had been

39:12

at Christie's

39:12

from four thirty to five PM. We won't go into

39:14

technical details

39:15

here, but you can find them on Susan's blog.

39:17

And also, Susan laid it out in the

39:19

HBO documentary with maps

39:22

at all. so definitely check that out. Long

39:24

story short, the cops screwed

39:26

up. The first time they interviewed Jay,

39:28

they had misread the

39:30

cell data. and was

39:32

saying that Jay was at Christie's from four thirty

39:34

to five even though he

39:36

wasn't. But by Jay's second

39:38

interview, they realized they had

39:40

screwed up. So then Jay's story changed to match the cops

39:42

misconceptions. He

39:44

told the cops he had been at

39:45

Christie's three times

39:48

that day, matching up with the cops new theory even though it's completely

39:50

impossible for the first trip to even have

39:52

occurred.

39:52

For one, Christie wasn't

39:54

even home then.

39:56

which means Jake could not have been hanging out with her and smoking a blunt like he

39:59

says he

39:59

was. Which means we know that Jake is

40:02

willing

40:02

to lie about going

40:04

to Christy's even when that lie is easily disproven.

40:06

And that takes us back to the original

40:08

question. Did Anand and Jay actually

40:10

go to Christy's apartment that night

40:13

It's unlikely for a number of

40:16

reasons. First, there's

40:17

this. It seems the reason

40:19

Christy ever even thought that a non

40:21

strip happened on January thirteenth or t was

40:23

because the cops told her it had happened

40:25

on

40:25

January thirteenth. Christie was

40:27

interviewed by detectives on March ninth

40:29

nineteen ninety nine. A

40:31

year later at the second trial, here's what

40:33

Christie testified to. And on the day, a

40:35

month later when that day came up in conversation,

40:37

did you remember that it was on the thirteenth

40:40

of January? I don't think I

40:42

remembered the specific date. No. Somebody told you that date, did they not? I think it

40:44

was detective McGillivarry. Detective McGillivarry.

40:49

You did not have any independent recollection of your

40:51

own. The day this person came with

40:53

Jay occurred actually on the thirteenth. No.

40:55

I don't think so. So Christy's memory of

40:57

a non strip to her house

40:59

isn't entirely organic. It's been influenced

41:01

by the cops. And based

41:03

on the details she does remember, what she's

41:06

describing doesn't sound like January

41:08

thirteenth. For example, what Jay was wearing

41:10

that day? Here's

41:11

what Jay said he had on. I think I

41:13

don't have hair changing or

41:16

who you know, I play it, who like, who's,

41:18

like, who Christy's memory,

41:20

though, is different. Maybe

41:22

a black coat or a black

41:24

black hat. They're like a fish in the

41:26

side of the string. Okay. I mean, it's And

41:28

Jay says that between his second trip to Christie's

41:30

and his third trip, he changed his

41:33

clothes. When he went back to your

41:35

house after Adnan dropped you off,

41:38

Did you change your clothes? Yes. And what did you do with

41:40

your clothes? I put it in a plastic bag.

41:42

Christie, however, doesn't remember that.

41:45

I think I would've noticed the gay

41:47

change broke, so I'm thinking that no

41:49

was staying out there. And here's what

41:51

Christy says Jay was talking about when he and the

41:53

non came to her apartment. when they came

41:56

in, he was telling me that they were

41:58

gonna go to the new store and that

42:00

they're gonna meet up

42:02

with Stephanie. Basically,

42:04

everything that Christian remembers Jay saying

42:06

that night involves references to events that

42:08

would not have been happening on January thirteenth.

42:11

She says Jane and Nunn were either coming from or going

42:13

to a video store, which definitely

42:15

didn't happen according to every other story that

42:17

Jane has given. Jay did work at an

42:19

adult video store that wasn't from Christie's apartment, and he often had

42:22

a non drop off at work. But if

42:24

that's what Jay is

42:26

talking about, Christy trip wasn't

42:28

on January thirteenth because Jay didn't

42:30

begin working at the adult video store

42:32

until January

42:34

thirty first. Also, Stephanie had an away basketball game

42:36

in the night of January thirteenth. She

42:38

didn't get home until

42:40

ten PM. and Nana and Jay

42:42

couldn't have had plans to go seer because

42:44

Adonis hit the mosque

42:46

by

42:46

then. then

42:50

there's the biggest problem with them all. The phone call non god while

42:53

at Christi's place. The one she overhears

42:55

and thinks is so incriminating because Adnan

42:57

is asking the caller

43:00

What do I do? What do I say? Christie believed

43:02

that Adnan was talking to a friend. And in

43:04

Cirrells, he said it sounded like a best

43:08

friend even. Now compare

43:09

Christy's description of that phone call with a phone call that Jason's

43:11

happened. We stayed here for

43:13

a while until when a

43:15

representative phone call, he wakes up. He answers his

43:18

phone. He it's

43:20

a he's he's family. They're

43:22

looking for a he

43:24

tells him Yes. No knowledge where she

43:26

is.

43:26

Jay says that

43:29

the

43:29

only person who called while they were at

43:32

Christie's house was his

43:34

brother. And Christie

43:34

says that Anon only received one phone

43:37

call while they're at her place.

43:39

But there's no

43:40

way that the call Christy overheard was

43:42

the call from his brother. Edna would

43:44

not have

43:44

been saying to him, what do I do?

43:46

What do I say? That doesn't

43:48

make any sense. And

43:50

according to Jay, shortly after this call, another

43:52

call came in this time

43:54

from the police. That's the

43:57

we played earlier from Jay, where he describes a

43:59

non getting in calls or leaving

44:01

the apartment. But here's

44:02

what Christy remembers about what happened when a

44:04

non left her place that night. So he leaves.

44:06

He yeah. I'm not leaving. He opens your apartment door. The

44:09

door is locked. The door is locked.

44:11

The door is locked. he

44:13

goes through the whole line, noticed. The whole line. I mean, maybe the

44:16

chain was locked, but he hung

44:18

his the devil the other rock was

44:20

locked out, pushed behind

44:22

her. And him with the

44:24

gym. And

44:24

she was when he was sick of a

44:26

retirement and he was, like, watching something for

44:28

him. He gets up. He gets up. He

44:30

gets up. He gets up. It

44:33

doesn't seem like Jay

44:34

and Christie are describing the same

44:36

event at all. In fact, there's

44:38

only one point

44:39

of similarity between Jay's

44:42

story about a nonstrep to Christie's and Christie story about

44:44

a

44:44

nonstrep to her place. Both Jane

44:46

and Christie recall

44:46

that a non was acting weird,

44:49

kinda slumped over, maybe even

44:52

asleep. But here's the thing.

44:54

Jay does not attribute this weirdness

44:56

to, you

44:56

know, the whole being a

44:59

murderer thing. instead,

45:00

Jay thinks the reason a nod is being weird

45:02

is that Jay had given a nod something

45:04

to

45:04

smoke. He's feeling a little nauseous from

45:06

a cigarette that I'd given him.

45:08

prior to going to the house. So he's situated in group.

45:11

In twenty fourteen, Jay told

45:12

a similar story when he was

45:15

interviewed by the intercept.

45:17

He said then, quote, I made him

45:19

smoke one time. He got a

45:21

little high, got a little weird,

45:23

didn't say that much. which

45:25

sounds

45:25

an awful lot like what Christie said about

45:27

what Anad was like when he came over to

45:29

her place, how he was being weird

45:32

and quiet. But

45:32

again, Jay doesn't seem to associate this event with the night

45:35

of the murder

45:35

at all. So if Jay thinks that the

45:37

reason

45:37

Anon was

45:40

being weird, Christy's house had nothing to do with the events on January

45:42

thirteenth. Maybe that's because the events that

45:43

Kristy and Jay are talking about happened

45:46

on a different

45:48

day entirely. and we're

45:49

pretty sure it wasn't a different day for a

45:51

few reasons.

45:56

Chris, she

45:56

remembers that on the night that Jay ended

45:58

Nunn came over to her apartment, she had been at a conference at University of

46:00

Maryland and Baltimore from around nine AM

46:03

to four thirty PM. Christy

46:05

remembers this conference being mandatory as part of

46:07

her internship, and she recalled that it took

46:09

place at the school of

46:12

social work. While it turns out according to the school social work calendar for that

46:14

time, there was indeed a

46:16

conference, but it wasn't on

46:18

January thirteenth. It was on the

46:20

twenty second. The conference

46:22

session was titled, quote, clinical

46:24

interventions with traumatized

46:25

children, and it ran from eight thirty

46:27

AM to four thirty PM.

46:29

Now,

46:30

at that time, Christie had an internship

46:32

at a group home for adolescent boys.

46:34

And according to her, this conference was mandatory.

46:37

Christy remembered coming home after the

46:39

conference and settling in to watch judge

46:41

Judy when Adnan and Jay

46:43

came by. If her memory is correct

46:45

then, it's a strong possibility that everything

46:48

she was remembering happened on January

46:50

twenty second. And there

46:52

is an incoming phone call at seven twelve

46:54

PM. But the problem is,

46:56

the phone call only last two seconds, hardly enough for

46:59

the conversation that Christie thinks she heard. Perhaps it

47:01

was a conference on

47:04

another day, or maybe she's misremembering and they didn't come over on a day

47:06

of a conference. Either

47:08

is possible, but what we do know is that there

47:10

was no conference scheduled for

47:12

January thirteenth.

47:12

Another

47:16

reason we can

47:16

almost be sure that Jay and Adnan didn't come

47:18

over to Christie's apartment on the evening of

47:21

January

47:21

thirteenth is this. The

47:23

documentary team that made the case against

47:26

Adnan Sayed for HBO

47:28

did some digging, and they found Christie's

47:30

class schedule for

47:32

that period. It was a winter semester. And if any of you recall

47:34

taking winter semesters in college, they're

47:36

typically only a few weeks long, and

47:38

every class is

47:40

super concentrated to get through all the

47:42

curriculum you would in a regular semester. While that

47:44

winter, Christie was enrolled in a social work

47:48

class from six to nine ten PM every Wednesday night

47:50

for three

47:50

weeks. Just three

47:52

classes in total. January

47:55

thirteenth nineteen ninety nine, was

47:57

one of those three Wednesday nights that the class

47:59

was scheduled. In other words,

48:02

if

48:02

Christie had skipped

48:05

the class, she would have missed one third of the class,

48:07

but she received a b in the course.

48:09

And in documentary, she admitted that not only would

48:11

she have not gotten a b if she skipped any of

48:13

the three class sessions, she

48:15

would have failed. Given this new information,

48:18

it seems fairly certain that on the

48:20

evening of January thirteenth, Christie

48:22

was in class and not at

48:24

her apartment. which takes us

48:26

back to trying to figure out when this visit actually took place.

48:29

There's a possibility based on

48:31

the sell side records that

48:33

the visit took place in fact

48:35

on February The pattern of calls made from an to a non

48:38

cellphone on February fifteenth

48:40

may line up with a call that Christie

48:42

overheard. There

48:44

was a six twenty eight PM call to a non famous friend

48:46

yosser, which pinged the cell tower l

48:49

six fifty five b. which

48:51

is consistent with the call at Christie's apartment, but

48:53

of course also isn't a way to pinpoint where

48:55

the phone was. And before the

48:58

Oscar call, Several calls were made

49:00

from Adnan's phone to Stephanie, which could

49:02

explain why Jay was talking about their

49:04

plans to go sooner later. And we can't

49:06

be sure that was the day that he

49:08

was there. but it's a theory. So going back to

49:10

January thirteenth and ignoring where the phone

49:12

was for the moment. Who was it that was making

49:14

all

49:14

these calls to a on

49:16

during the time

49:19

period that he

49:22

was supposedly

49:23

at Christi's.

49:25

The phone record show that from six PM

49:27

to six thirty PM that night, there were three incoming

49:29

calls

49:29

to a non phone. One at 607

49:32

PM, one at 609 PM,

49:35

and one at six twenty

49:37

four PM. The general assumption is

49:38

that the last call at six twenty four

49:40

was

49:40

the one from officer Adcock.

49:44

And

49:44

at least in this case, the general assumption seems to

49:46

be right. But what about

49:48

the

49:48

other two calls then? In

49:51

his

49:51

first interview, Jay only

49:54

remembers one call coming in during his

49:56

entire time period, and that was the one from

49:58

the cops. By

49:59

the time of Jay's second interview, He now two

50:02

calls, one from his family and

50:04

one from

50:05

the cops. And by the

50:06

time of trial, Jay remembers

50:10

three calls. two from his family and one from the

50:12

police, which accounts for all three calls during

50:14

that time period.

50:16

Adnan only remembers one phone call,

50:19

and that was from Hay's brother who then passed the phone

50:22

to Officer Adcock. It's

50:24

possible Jay's

50:24

right though and that Hay's brother

50:26

and Officer Adcock called separately.

50:28

So

50:28

that would explain two of the calls, but that would still leave us with one

50:31

incoming call that was unaccounted for.

50:34

Back at the time of

50:35

the trial, it was assumed that

50:38

the cell phone records only showed calls that

50:40

had

50:40

actually been answered, and incoming calls

50:42

where no one picked the phone up wouldn't

50:45

show up. Turns out though, this

50:46

was not a safe assumption to make

50:48

because the phone company's definition of

50:50

answered and the human definition of

50:53

answered aren't always the

50:53

same. We don't have a

50:56

nonservice agreement,

50:56

so I don't know the terms that

50:58

his used. But in nineteen

51:00

ninety nine, there were plenty

51:02

of phone companies that would have charged for an incoming call

51:04

even when it wasn't answered and went

51:06

to voicemail. And even if the caller

51:08

hung up before the beep.

51:10

Here's language used

51:11

by other AT and T agreements from the two thousands. You

51:13

may

51:13

be charged for both an incoming and an

51:15

outgoing call when incoming calls are routed to

51:17

voice mail, even if

51:20

no mess which is left, and

51:22

chargeable time may also occur for other uses of our facilities, including

51:24

by way of example, voice mail deposits

51:28

and retrieval and call transfers. It's worth noting

51:30

that due to AT

51:30

and T's first minute free

51:33

policy for incoming calls, Users

51:36

weren't

51:36

actually charged for these incoming calls

51:38

to voice mail, the ones that went unanswered.

51:40

The calls did however

51:41

show up on the phone records,

51:44

So it could be that all those incoming calls

51:46

on the cell records in this case don't

51:48

actually

51:48

represent times when someone picked up

51:50

a non phone and answered

51:52

it.

51:55

And, likely, that all of Jay is

51:58

constantly evolving stories about who was

51:59

making these calls. Just

52:01

reflects his to appease prosecution who

52:03

wanted explanations for each

52:04

and every call in that log.

52:08

even

52:08

though some of them were presumably not real calls at all. And

52:10

would you know one person who called and left

52:12

a voicemail for a non that day?

52:15

It was Christa. That

52:16

means one of the incoming calls could have been from her. And it turns

52:18

out that we have a pretty

52:20

good idea of when she might have called

52:22

too.

52:24

because Krista

52:24

turns out saved her phone records from that day.

52:26

She was calling from a

52:27

landline so they don't show all the calls that were

52:30

made like a cell phone

52:32

bell would. But

52:33

those records do show that she made two calls using star sixty nine.

52:35

And based on that, her voice mail went

52:37

on was at sometime

52:39

around six PM.

52:40

how many times that night did

52:42

you crawl on on that I

52:45

can remember definitely twice,

52:47

possibly three times after he left the hang up on

52:49

my machine, which was at five thirty eight.

52:52

Right. And it was, you know, I

52:54

obviously got to call five

52:56

fifty one I

52:58

hit star sixty nine and saw that I had a hang up and that's who the

53:00

number went back to was. I'd remember

53:02

trying to call him shortly thereafter

53:04

and

53:04

him not answering,

53:06

which I thought was weird

53:08

because usually if he called me, especially he would always answer

53:10

the phone if I call him right back. Mhmm. And

53:12

then when I didn't hear from

53:15

him. I know I caught him at least one other time just because I

53:17

thought it was a little out of sorts that,

53:19

you know, he didn't return the

53:21

call right away. especially when he called me to

53:23

begin with. So how long again would you estimate

53:25

it's between the first call and second

53:27

call? I mean, I'd probably say

53:29

an hour.

53:31

So a non cell

53:33

records are showing incoming calls that were routed to voicemail, that would seem to

53:35

imply that either the 607 or 609

53:38

incoming calls were

53:40

from Christa. And

53:42

if Krista is right about her second call

53:44

to Anon being made an hour after this, that

53:46

would mean

53:46

that she is one of the two Lincoln

53:48

Park phone calls. and we'll explore all of us

53:51

in more detail in episode eight

53:53

of the season.

53:58

Today, we

54:00

learned how the reality

54:02

of

54:02

a non stay on January thirteenth was

54:06

quite possibly completely different from the perception created by the

54:08

prosecution at trial. You may

54:10

be asking yourself, what did Adnan say

54:12

he did on the evening

54:14

January thirteenth. While there aren't any attorney or interview notes that

54:17

specifically document his version after he was

54:19

arrested, and he didn't testify a

54:21

trial at the of attorney.

54:24

Adnan has otherwise always maintained that after

54:26

Jay picked him up from track practice, he drove

54:28

around with Jay and they spoke pot together.

54:30

that he dropped j off at his house a little after eight PM. And finally, he wanted the

54:32

moss for the rest of the evening with his

54:34

father before returning home late

54:38

that night. Adnan's father in fact did testify that he

54:40

went to the mosque that night with Adnan, as

54:42

they did pretty much every night

54:44

in Rohadnan. on Adnan

54:46

provided Gutierrez with a lengthy list of

54:48

potential witnesses from the mosque. People he

54:50

told her might be able to verify that

54:52

he was there that night. Unfortunately, she didn't

54:55

contact any of them, not

54:57

a single one.

55:02

that we've gone overall the evidence and information that exists to

55:04

show where Adnan say it was on January

55:06

thirteenth nineteen ninety nine, we

55:08

turn our attention to Hamid Lee.

55:11

What if nearly nothing we've been told

55:13

about her movements on the day she disappeared turned

55:15

out to be true? Next

55:17

time on undisclosed,

55:28

We had undisclosed don't

55:30

have the words to express our

55:32

thanks to all of you, our listeners, for all

55:34

of your support in these past

55:38

five years. and a special thanks from Adnan, myself and the rest

55:40

of his loved ones for the support you continue

55:42

to show him. Thank you to

55:44

the Always Masterful Rebecca LaVoy

55:46

for turning

55:48

us into rose to Meitel Thalhan for keeping this machine

55:50

running, to Baluki for our logo,

55:52

and to Patrick Cortez for our

55:54

theme music. And I want

55:56

to personally thank as we

55:58

continue this fight, my incredible

55:59

colleagues Susan Simpson and Colin Miller, who

56:02

have put in thousands of hours of

56:04

work on Don's case and who we could not have ever come this far

56:06

without. Also, thank you to the many

56:08

people who've told his story over the years,

56:10

Sarah Koenig and Amy Berg and

56:12

their teams. and to the

56:14

lawyers who have stood by Adan all of

56:16

his years, Chris Fuller,

56:18

Doug Colbert, and

56:20

Justin Brown. You can find

56:22

all of our episodes and episode related documents on our website, WWW

56:25

dot undisclosed podcast dot

56:28

com and don't forget to follow us on

56:30

social media. You'll find us at Twitter with a handle at undisclosed pod

56:32

and we're also on Instagram and Facebook.

56:36

And finally, if you've enjoyed us all these years, do us a favor and take

56:38

a little bit of time and give us a five star

56:40

review on Apple Podcasts at iTunes.

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