0:01

This is a CBC Podcast. History

0:07

remembers Charlie Chaplin as Hollywood's first

0:09

superstar, but at the height of

0:11

his career the FBI considered him

0:14

something else, a threat to America.

0:17

Hollywood Exiles from the BBC

0:19

World Service and CBC Podcasts

0:21

is a story of glamour,

0:23

duplicity, and the US

0:25

government's decades-long campaign to root out

0:28

communism in Hollywood. Host

0:30

Una Chaplin guides listeners through

0:32

the story of former FBI

0:34

director J. Edgar Hoover's personal

0:36

vendetta against her grandfather, Charlie

0:39

Chaplin. Over ten episodes, Una

0:41

Chaplin leads an intimate journey

0:43

of historical discovery, told by

0:45

voices you've never heard. Now

0:48

here's the first episode of

0:50

Hollywood Exiles, an American Dream.

0:53

Have a listen. I

1:03

don't know if you've ever walked down the Hollywood Walk of

1:05

Fame. There are more

1:07

than two and a half thousand stars there now.

1:10

It runs for fifteen blocks down

1:12

Hollywood Boulevard, in front

1:15

of fast food outlets, museums, hotels,

1:17

and boarded up shops. Julie

1:23

Andrews. Tom Hanks. Even

1:26

Mickey Mouse has a star. All the

1:28

stars of Hollywood, all of them forever

1:30

commemorated in the city's concrete. The

1:34

idea of honoring the artists who made

1:36

the city famous with brass plaques was

1:39

concocted by the Hollywood Chamber of Commerce in the

1:42

1950s. All

1:45

the names that had made the city great, all

1:47

the people who'd contributed to putting Hollywood

1:50

on the map. 1,500

1:52

names were chosen. About

1:56

1957, committees representing the different branches of the

1:58

Hollywood Chamber of Commerce the entertainment industry

2:01

started choosing the names of the

2:03

honorees. When it was

2:05

eventually published, there was

2:07

one name missing. The

2:10

shopkeepers of Hollywood objected so strongly

2:12

to the inclusion of this particular

2:14

Hollywood star that they refused to

2:16

foot the bill. And

2:22

it's pretty crazy because this

2:24

guy wasn't just any

2:26

old actor. He was a

2:28

producer, a director, a writer

2:30

to a composer. 30 years

2:32

earlier, he'd also been the

2:34

very personification of Hollywood. His

2:38

little tramp was a global

2:40

sensation. You've

2:43

heard of Charlie Chaplin, right? Well,

2:49

Charlie Chaplin was my grandfather,

2:52

and there was a time when he was

2:54

the biggest star in all the world. But

2:58

something happened, not just to

3:00

him, but to hundreds

3:02

of artists in Hollywood. They

3:04

were forced to leave, forced

3:06

out. And

3:12

it was all because there was a question

3:14

of how

3:16

American they were. This is

3:25

Mitzi Trumbo. She clearly remembers that year, 1957. Mitzi's

3:34

dad was a screenwriter at the time. When

3:37

he wrote a script called

3:39

The Brave One, the King brothers were

3:42

the producers, and the name

3:44

they used on it was Robert Rich. So

3:47

Robert Rich was nominated for an

3:50

Oscar, and amazingly,

3:52

it won. Robert

3:55

Rich was not Mitzi's dad's name.

3:58

I remember watching it with... the family

4:00

we were all watching on TV and my

4:02

first reaction was, Daddy

4:04

let's go get it tomorrow. And

4:08

I had to kind of be reminded

4:10

that this wasn't something that we could

4:12

do. That wasn't gonna happen. Mitzi's

4:17

dad was far from the only

4:19

person in the 1950s who

4:21

was exiled and forgotten rather than being

4:24

honored and celebrated. The

4:28

growing menace of communism arouses the

4:30

House of Representatives Un-American Activities Committee.

4:33

The censorship is against chaplain,

4:35

an enemy of godliness in

4:37

all forms. Their

4:40

goal is the overthrow of our government.

4:55

This is not just a Hollywood story. It's

4:58

a story that shook the cultural

5:00

foundations of the United States. People

5:03

left the country, some went to prison. It had

5:06

a profound effect not only on the

5:08

nation but on the people, the

5:11

families caught in the eye of the storm.

5:14

Writers and actors, what six or

5:16

eight of our friends, went to

5:19

jail to Hollywood 10. We

5:21

didn't leave immediately but we decided

5:24

we should get out of town.

5:28

And it's hard to watch

5:31

your family fall apart. I

5:34

want to know how and why families

5:36

fell apart. Why my own family had

5:38

to leave the United States. I

5:43

want to understand a divide in

5:46

America that resonates to this day.

5:53

From the BBC World Service

5:55

and CBC Podcast, this is

5:57

Hollywood Exiles. I'm

5:59

Uma. Episode.

6:02

One and American Dream.

6:55

London. eighteen Eighty nine. If

6:59

you've read Dickens or is the

7:02

movie adaptations, you might recognize the

7:04

London Charlie Chaplin. Was born

7:06

into dickens. And sell said

7:08

died twenty years the for my grandfather

7:10

was born that this was still a

7:13

London that he would now. The

7:17

city. Was dominated by industry

7:19

and commerce. Queen

7:21

Victoria was on the throne. And

7:25

there was extreme poverty. How

7:32

a boy goes from this London

7:34

to worldwide Same. It's

7:37

extraordinary. And

7:45

it is another thing there are in my

7:47

life. As

7:50

come to the cinema museum. And Kennington

7:52

South London not far from where I

7:55

know my grandfather was born. I

8:01

know military Hello think personally, behaviors,

8:03

think aside often from first First

8:05

code founder and Director of the

8:07

Cinema Museums and it's my pleasure

8:09

to show you around. Songs goodness

8:11

Think some semblance of what

8:13

a snazzy. The museum is

8:16

a tribute to the cinema

8:18

experience. What old Wales piled

8:20

high decide movie posters, And

8:22

all kinds of memorabilia. On

8:25

this is enough. Rights Uniform. He

8:28

sees cinemas staff whoa whoa

8:31

Uniforms the ashes in the

8:33

Us Arrests these manager would

8:35

look very formal sometimes. where

8:38

it to kibo enough? Trust

8:40

suit. Even the projectionist have

8:43

their own coats, crimes and.

8:45

Well as a sucker, an air

8:47

hostess. Is are. Going

8:50

to the cinema sat in the case

8:52

and. Services.

9:01

Are main holes where are

9:03

events take place. These.

9:08

Days the main hall at the

9:10

Scene in the museum is filled

9:12

with stats. He is large and

9:14

small as icons of the cinema

9:16

including more than a c little

9:18

chaplains, S.

9:23

M black and white himself. Hands

9:25

here he is a get. Was a kid

9:27

and I bet he built a lovely

9:29

little tree as. This.

9:32

Building is imposing and beautiful,

9:34

and as we've been approaching,

9:37

I'd wondered what it had

9:39

been before, what was it's

9:41

history? I was

9:43

stunned to find out. He

9:46

may be surprised to learn but this

9:49

building started life as the land with

9:51

work house. And. Your grandfather

9:53

was here. Several. Times

9:55

his child. Whacking?

9:58

Yes. Wow. Yeah,

10:01

his childhood was very poverty-stricken.

10:04

Right. This

10:06

main hall, this beautiful main hall, this was

10:08

the chapel, and he

10:10

would have attended services here, because

10:12

everybody had to, they had no

10:14

choice. This

10:16

building and this part of London had

10:19

a profound effect on my grandfather. How could

10:21

it not? He would have been

10:23

six or seven when he first showed up at

10:25

the gate of the Lambeth Workhouse. They

10:30

did all the cleaning, all the cooking,

10:32

making the beds. It

10:34

wouldn't have been an easy life. I

10:36

mean, they made it difficult for people

10:38

because they didn't want people to come

10:40

into the workhouse unless they absolutely had

10:42

no other choice. Yeah,

10:46

from everything that I've read, he

10:48

definitely had a lot of painful memories. Yes, I

10:50

think so. From here. My

10:53

grandfather died before I was born, so I

10:55

never got to meet him. I

10:57

only know him as everybody's hero. But

11:01

over the years, books and articles

11:03

and films have raised questions about

11:05

certain aspects of his character, especially

11:07

his relationship with younger women, which we

11:09

view with a very different lens nowadays.

11:13

One of these relationships will become a big part of

11:15

this story, actually. And

11:17

his relationship with money was curious,

11:19

too. He said he wanted governments

11:21

to do more to help the poor, and he

11:24

believed in justice, but

11:26

he didn't always like to pay his taxes. I

11:29

want to tell you the story as objectively

11:31

as I can. To

11:34

understand what happened to him, we have

11:36

to try and understand Charlie Chaplin,

11:38

the man. Charlie's

11:45

mother, my great-grandmother Hannah,

11:48

was also a performer. A

11:50

vaudevillian is how my grandfather describes her.

11:55

She would sing on stage, entertaining audiences

11:58

across London and the surrounding area. that

12:02

she wasn't well, her voice

12:04

wasn't strong, and the slightest

12:06

cold brought on laryngitis. Entertainment

12:12

at the turn of the 20th century was

12:14

theater, live performance. The music halls

12:17

of London filled every night with people looking

12:19

for a good time. And

12:22

they could be a tough crowd. One

12:27

night in 1894, Hannah was

12:29

performing in the canteen in Oldershot Hampshire,

12:32

a grubby little theater, a foreign, unforgiving

12:34

crowd of mostly military men. Her

12:39

voice began to break. The

12:42

audience shouted, jeered and booed,

12:44

as Hannah's voice lowered to a

12:47

whisper. And

12:49

she was forced to abandon her performance and

12:52

return upset to the wings where

12:54

young Charlie had been standing, watching

12:57

his mother. In

13:01

an effort to calm the crowd, the stage

13:03

manager pushed Charlie Chaplin out onto

13:05

the stage in his mother's place. Charlie

13:11

Chaplin was five years old. It

13:14

was his first appearance on stage. And

13:22

the crowd loved him. He

13:31

had such a gift. This

13:35

was the beginning of his life's work. But

13:39

the beginning of the end of Hannah's. Hannah's

13:42

performances became less regular, and losing her

13:44

income would send her family into a

13:47

spiral, a spiral that would

13:49

lead them to the gates of the Lambeth

13:51

Workhouse. It's

14:01

hard to imagine what it must have felt like to

14:03

walk through the great iron gates as a boy of

14:05

six, to be separated

14:07

from your mother at that early age. For

14:11

my grandfather, that was the life that he

14:13

wanted to get away from, you know,

14:16

to escape. And

14:18

he found his ticket as

14:21

a performer. In

14:35

his teenage years, he joined the renowned

14:38

Carnot Circus Company, and the

14:40

circus would bring Charlie Chaplin to the

14:42

United States of America. He

14:47

left behind a cold winter in England

14:50

and arrived to an early wave of summer

14:52

heat in New York City. On

14:57

the night that he arrived, he

14:59

took a walk down Broadway, tall skyscrapers

15:01

overhead, bright lights

15:03

and thrilling advertisements. This

15:07

is it, he thought. This

15:09

is where I belong. Not

15:35

long afterwards, that English clown arrived

15:37

on the west coast of America.

15:43

Amidst olive groves and wooden

15:45

houses, emotion picture industry was

15:48

thriving, turning out picture

15:51

after picture after picture. 1914,

16:02

an icon of cinema had his

16:04

first appearance on screen. Back

16:09

in those days, movies weren't all that

16:11

well thought through before production commenced.

16:13

Stories, jokes, and characters would be thought

16:16

up on the spot, whatever worked in the moment. On

16:22

the lookout for a character one day, Charlie

16:24

Chaplin said about creating a costume that was an

16:26

ensemble of contrasts, a

16:28

tiny hat, and a huge shoes,

16:32

baggy pants, and a pinch

16:34

of jacket. To

16:39

top it all off, he added a

16:41

toothbrush size mustache. In

16:44

this character, what becomes synonymous

16:46

with Chaplin, he

16:49

would be known to audiences everywhere

16:51

as Charlie or the

16:53

Little Tramp. He

17:00

would feature in more than 50 movies. In

17:05

1915 alone, Chaplin made 13 movies. He made nine the

17:10

following year. He was on a roll and

17:12

the Little Tramp was a sensation. One

17:21

of the movies that really stands out for me in that

17:23

era is called The Immigrant. Here's

17:26

Tony Cha, author of

17:28

Hollywood's Cold War. It's

17:33

immigrants coming across the Atlantic to

17:36

Ellis Island in the United States. And

17:39

the Little Tramp is among them. When

17:41

they arrive, the men in uniform, the

17:43

guards, they rope off the crowd of

17:45

immigrants, penning the men. This is

17:47

classic Chaplin. He's poking

17:49

fun at the authorities.

17:52

The Tramp actually kicks one

17:54

of the officers in the butt. And

17:57

he's pointing a finger at the

17:59

authorities officials, those

18:02

who run the ship line, and

18:04

their abuse of the ordinary man and woman. Like

18:07

almost anything that bore the Chaplin name

18:09

in that time, audiences loved it. Think

18:12

of the people who are going to the movies

18:14

in this period, the ordinary people. Many

18:17

films don't appear to be for

18:19

them, whereas Chaplin's movies were explicitly

18:22

aimed at them. And

18:24

the tramp represents someone who is

18:26

just like them, whether it's the

18:28

immigrants, etc. So Chaplin

18:31

tapped into that

18:34

big audience that wanted films

18:37

that were, on the one

18:39

hand, uplifting, in this case funny, but

18:42

also something they could relate

18:44

to because it was about their lives

18:47

as well. Especially new immigrants,

18:50

many of whom could just about afford to go

18:52

to the Nickelodeon the early,

18:54

early cinemas. These movies

18:56

were produced in an age of innocence

18:58

in Hollywood. The aim was

19:00

to make movies that people wanted to

19:03

see. The aim, explicitly, was to make

19:05

money. But movies like

19:07

The Immigrant would raise eyebrows in the years

19:09

that followed. People would

19:11

start to ask questions and see something

19:13

more in Chaplin's comedy. Some

19:15

people are going to look

19:18

at this film and think,

19:20

this is anti-authority. It's

19:22

not political capital P, but it's

19:25

somewhat dangerous. What's Chaplin playing at here

19:27

is poking front of the authorities. Is

19:30

that something which might be related to

19:33

the threat of communism on the other side of

19:35

the world? A

19:41

revolution in Russia that same year

19:43

had brought a far-left Bolshevik government

19:45

to power. The fear

19:47

that a wave of communist revolutions

19:49

would follow was quite real. This

19:53

was during the dying days of the

19:55

First World War. Societies were being upended,

19:57

and this was the moment that the

19:59

immigrant was released into theaters.

20:03

Their goal is the overthrow of our

20:05

government. There is no doubt

20:08

as to where a real communist

20:10

loyalty rests. Their allegiance

20:12

is to Russia, not the United States.

20:16

This is J. Edgar Hoover. For

20:18

decades he would run the FBI,

20:21

taking it from strength to strength

20:23

under successive presidents. His

20:26

first task for the federal government in 1919,

20:28

long, long before the establishment of

20:32

the FBI, was to hunt

20:34

communists. This task

20:37

started just two years after the

20:39

release of Chaplains the Immigrant. This

20:45

is Hoover speaking years later. Communism

20:48

in reality is not a political party.

20:51

It is a way of life, an evil and

20:53

malignant way of life. It

20:55

reveals a condition akin to disease,

20:57

which spreads like an epidemic. And

21:00

like an epidemic, a quarantine is

21:02

necessary to keep it from infecting this

21:04

nation. To

21:08

be accused of being a communist was akin

21:11

to being accused of being a traitor. This

21:13

was no laughing matter. So

21:21

here's something I didn't know. The

21:24

authorities in the United States were

21:26

looking into communism in Hollywood as

21:28

early as the 1920s. And

21:31

the focus of their investigation at the time was

21:34

my grandfather. His

21:37

FBI file is the earliest evidence

21:39

experts have that U.S. authorities were

21:41

interested in Hollywood. Investigators

21:45

thought there was something funny about

21:47

Charlie Chaplin. There

21:55

are multiple cases that are attempted

21:57

to be built against Chaplin over the years.

22:00

the years. This is John Spadillati,

22:02

author of J. Edgar Hoover Goes to the

22:04

Movies. There is a file that

22:06

started on him that way back in 1922.

22:08

And this is before the FBI

22:10

was the FBI, it was just the BI or

22:13

the Bureau of Investigation. It's before J. Edgar

22:15

Hoover was the director. He was an assistant

22:18

director and he was actually copied in on

22:20

these files from bureau agents in Los Angeles.

22:23

And why did agents of the Bureau

22:25

of Investigation, the BI, think

22:27

that Charlie Chaplin, the comedian and

22:30

filmmaker, was a threat? They

22:33

have concerns about, first and foremost, about

22:35

what they consider to be radical propaganda

22:37

in the motion pictures. They

22:40

have concerns about funding of

22:43

the Communist Party and of other radical

22:45

organizations. They have concerns about

22:48

simply associations between

22:51

creative figures such as Charlie Chaplin

22:54

and other artists and radicals,

22:57

figures as prominent as William Z. Foster,

22:59

who would later be the head of

23:01

the Communist Party, USA. There

23:04

are flags that are raised. They

23:08

didn't like his friends. They had

23:10

suspicions, but no evidence about where he

23:13

might be spending his money. But

23:15

they also didn't like his movies. They

23:17

didn't like the stories he was telling.

23:21

And this, this is the beginning of

23:23

a much bigger story. At

23:42

the same moment the Bureau is zeroing in

23:44

on Charlie Chaplin as a possible communist, my

23:47

grandfather is, ironically, doing

23:49

very well by capitalism.

23:52

His career is skyrocketing.

24:00

This is La Brea Avenue in Hollywood, and

24:02

here you'll find a very distinctive row

24:04

of cottages that wouldn't look out of

24:06

place in an English village. This

24:09

was the studio that Charlie Chaplin built. The

24:12

little boy from South London, who 20

24:14

years before was living in the Lambeth

24:17

Workhouse, now had his

24:19

very own studio in the heart

24:21

of the moviemaking industry. He

24:23

was living his version of the American Dream.

24:27

This is Vince over here. Hello,

24:29

Vince. Hi, nice to meet you. Thank

24:33

you for letting us come in here for a moment. And

24:36

this is it. My goodness.

24:39

These days, the studio is owned and

24:41

occupied by the Jim Henson Company, which

24:44

I'm personally very happy about. Kermit

24:46

the Frog with the tramps trademark hat

24:48

and cane greets visitors as you enter.

24:52

We're in a room here that I've never

24:54

been allowed into before. These

24:57

days, it's Brian Henson's office, Jim

24:59

Henson's son, but it

25:01

used to be my grandfather's office. And

25:05

this is the original fireplace, except it's not

25:07

a fireplace anymore. It's a Gauss

25:09

fireplace? Yeah. I don't even

25:11

think it's... You haven't had it in a long time.

25:14

I mean, why would you? It's

25:16

hot here. Hot. This

25:20

is a cozy English lounge,

25:22

not a plush American office.

25:25

I like that it's not super big and

25:27

ostentatious. I mean, it's a big

25:29

office, but... Homely. As

25:37

a fiercely independent creative, this studio

25:39

was Charlie Chaplin's dream, his

25:42

own production facility. And then a year

25:45

after he built it, he

25:47

co-founded United Artists, his own

25:49

distribution outlet. Hollywood

25:52

had become increasingly concentrated around

25:54

a handful of powerful studios,

25:57

often owned and controlled by businessmen

25:59

and... financiers. United

26:02

Artists had a different vision, a studio

26:04

run by the people who make the

26:07

movies, who wanted to make better

26:09

movies. It

26:13

provided an alternative to the Hollywood model

26:15

of the studio system. They

26:17

had the idea of a more artistic approach,

26:20

a more personal approach. Don't

26:22

get me wrong, my grandfather was making a lot

26:24

of money out of it. Charlie was

26:26

definitely a businessman, but he had

26:29

artistic integrity and he wanted to

26:31

support other artists. So

26:36

here was Charlie Chaplin in the early 20s, superstar

26:40

actor, studio executive, major

26:42

independent distributor. He

26:45

was somebody who didn't seem to play by

26:47

Hollywood's rules. He was willing

26:49

to go outside the system to do

26:51

things differently, to think differently.

26:55

Behind the scenes, the Los Angeles branch

26:57

of the Bureau of Investigation was interested

27:00

in him. He was

27:02

a foreigner, an Englishman, an

27:05

outsider. He had an appeal

27:07

to the common man and he

27:09

had friends that they didn't like.

27:12

They were building a file on Chaplin. In

27:18

a lot of ways, Charlie Chaplin was

27:20

the very embodiment of the American dream.

27:23

A poor kid who makes his way

27:25

to wealth through hard work and

27:27

a little luck. Thirty

27:31

years later, he left

27:33

America. His political opponents

27:35

became too powerful. We

27:40

were going to the premiere of the

27:42

film that he had just made called

27:44

Line Light. This is

27:47

my mom, Geraldine Chaplin. I

27:49

wanted to talk to her about her dad

27:51

leaving America because she was there. And

27:54

it was going to be a royal premiere and

27:56

Princess Margaret was there and I was to help

27:58

a little blind girl give. flowers

28:00

to Princess Margaret and

28:02

we spent most of the day learning how to curtsy. This

28:06

was 1952 and little

28:08

did my mom know that on the

28:10

journey across the Atlantic her father had

28:12

received news that he wasn't welcome in

28:14

the United States anymore. Do

28:18

you remember being on the boat? I remember

28:21

being on the boat, yes. It

28:25

was the Queen Elizabeth and I kept saying

28:27

because I became great friends with the man

28:29

who ran the gym and he would

28:31

let me. I guess there

28:33

were horses that you got on and you put them

28:36

on and turn them on and they would gallop. I

28:38

remember he let me ride the horses, he would put

28:40

me on the horses and turn the horses on and

28:43

he gave me when we left, he gave me a little pig,

28:46

a little China pig and

28:48

we arrived at the Savoy Hotel and

28:51

the pig fell into the empty bathtub

28:54

and smashed and

28:56

I remember kids saying, can we go back on

28:58

the Queen Mary? But my parents

29:00

were so great, they

29:02

were such extraordinary parents that

29:06

they never mentioned

29:08

what was happening. It was

29:10

just a holiday. It

29:13

wasn't just a holiday, it would

29:15

be almost a quarter of a century

29:17

before Charlie Chaplin was allowed back into

29:19

America. He

29:24

was older than my father. Here's

29:27

Mitzi Trumbo again. She was telling me earlier

29:29

about the Oscar that her dad had won,

29:31

the Oscar that he hadn't been allowed to

29:34

collect and I asked her if

29:36

it was likely that her dad had known

29:38

my grandfather. And I don't

29:40

know if they knew each other, I'm sure they met

29:42

at some point or crossed paths.

29:46

Around the same time my mom and her dad

29:48

had taken the boat to England, Mitzi's

29:50

dad decided his family needed to move

29:52

too. There

29:55

was no work and there was no money and

29:57

somehow he decided that Going

30:00

to Mexico might be the best way to do it.

30:02

So... Mitzi, her

30:04

siblings, her parents, and some family

30:06

friends who were also facing a

30:09

kind of exile left

30:11

for Mexico City. Thinking

30:13

it would be easier to get work and there.

30:16

Wow, indeed. Do you remember the trip

30:19

down? Oh, yes. I

30:21

remember the trip down really well

30:23

because we had three kids and

30:25

a dog and a cat. So

30:28

we were... Somebody was always sick. Of

30:30

course. We get the flu over and over.

30:33

It took two weeks to get to Mexico City, but

30:36

I remember it really well. It was

30:38

great fun. They were good, close friends.

30:42

Great fun for a little kid, but

30:44

no doubt filled with anxiety and concern

30:46

for her parents. The

30:49

Trumbos were not alone in taking their family

30:51

to Mexico. Many more families

30:53

whose parents had been involved in the

30:55

movie industry were also heading south. It

30:58

was a tight little community we had. It

31:01

was very nice as a kid. Yeah.

31:04

Just hard learning Spanish. Right.

31:07

My father absolutely refused to learn

31:09

Spanish. He said, I spent my whole life learning

31:13

English and using English. So

31:17

I ended up being his little

31:19

translator and he'd have to

31:21

bend down and talk to me, ask me

31:23

what somebody was saying. It was

31:25

so... I felt so powerful. Oh

31:28

my God. I've never

31:30

had that kind of control over my father,

31:32

ever. Oh wow,

31:34

what an amazing position to be in. Very

31:36

fun. Mitzi's

31:38

dad was, for a time, a

31:41

member of the Communist Party. A

31:43

perfectly legal organization to be a member of,

31:45

by the way. But his

31:47

views, his politics, meant that he didn't

31:49

feel welcome in the United States anymore.

31:54

Mitzi's dad had to leave town because

31:56

he couldn't get work. And

31:58

he couldn't get work. because of his

32:00

politics. And his family got

32:02

dragged into that too. When

32:05

you're that young, you just go where your

32:07

family goes. Yeah. And do what they

32:09

do. My

32:19

mom asked my granddad once if he was a

32:21

communist. When she didn't know about what had

32:23

happened to him until she was well into her teenage

32:25

years. When I

32:27

found out the whole story,

32:30

I was already a Marxist myself.

32:33

I was about 15 or 16 and was gravely

32:36

flirting with Marxism. And

32:38

how did you find out in school? In

32:41

school, the kid said, you know your

32:44

father was kicked out. Your father's a

32:46

communist, your father's a communist. Oh

32:49

yeah, whoa! Really?

32:54

I'm really proud. But then

32:56

he wasn't. I asked daddy, is it true? You can't

32:58

go back to the States because you're a communist. He

33:00

said, I'm not a communist. Look at the way we

33:02

live. I'm

33:06

not a communist. We

33:09

lived in this enormous house, which is now a

33:11

museum. Having

33:16

lived in such

33:18

empty poverty when he was a child,

33:21

really left its mark on him. But that, you

33:23

saw it in a movie. And if you defend

33:26

the underdog, you're a commie. He

33:29

had friends who were communists. He had friends who were

33:32

whatever. But

33:37

he wasn't. I

33:39

think that poverty, that terrible poverty, leave

33:41

its mark and you'll become someone

33:44

who defends the underdog. This

33:47

story involves actual communists and

33:52

people who were unfairly accused of being communists. It

34:01

involves movie stars and regular folk,

34:03

people who lost their livelihoods, and

34:06

some who were forced out of

34:08

the United States altogether. Over

34:11

the next nine episodes, we're going to hear

34:13

their stories and find out

34:15

about the people who wielded such

34:18

power over them. Are

34:20

you a member of the Communist Party? Or have

34:22

you ever been a member of the Communist Party? Hollywood

34:31

Exiles is a production of BBC

34:33

Audio Wales for the BBC World

34:35

Service and CBC podcasts. I'm

34:38

Iuna Chaplin. Our

34:40

producers are Glynne Tansley and Megan Jones.

34:44

Music by Phil Channel and sound design

34:46

by Kathy Robinson and Phil Channel. Our

34:49

theme is by Nick Forburn. Executive

34:54

producer for BBC Audio is Martin Smith.

34:57

At the BBC World Service, Prabhjit Bains

35:00

is senior producer and John Manau is

35:02

the podcast commissioning editor. At

35:04

the CBC Podcast, Jeff Turner

35:07

is senior producer, Chris

35:09

Oak is executive producer, and

35:12

Arif Narani is the director. Thank

35:14

you for listening. Music

35:28

by Chris Oak and Arif Narani. Music

35:58

by Chris Oak and Arif Narani. That

36:07

was the first episode of Hollywood

36:09

Exiles. You can listen to

36:11

more episodes right now everywhere you

36:14

get your podcasts. For

36:16

more CBC podcasts, go

36:18

to cbc.ca/ podcasts.