0:04

Do you love Uncover from CBC

0:06

Podcasts? What's your favourite season? Which

0:09

one did you skip? What do you want to

0:11

hear more of? Help us make

0:13

Uncover even better by taking our

0:15

listener survey now. Visit

0:17

cbc.ca/Uncover survey to make

0:19

sure your voice is

0:21

heard. This

0:31

is a CBC Podcast. It

0:34

all started with a rumor. It

0:36

went like this. Back in

0:38

1989, on prom night, a

0:41

teenager boasted that he had

0:43

just committed murder. He showed off

0:45

a freshly inked tattoo, a badge of

0:47

honour for the killing. Or

0:49

so the rumor went. No one

0:51

took it seriously until 2004, when

0:54

two federal agents began looking into it.

0:57

But here's the thing. Unlike

1:00

almost every other murder case, in

1:02

this case, the agents had a

1:05

suspect, but no idea who

1:07

the victim was. This

1:09

is also the story of a family searching

1:11

for answers about why their brother was killed.

1:15

These two storylines collide in a

1:17

courtroom in Philadelphia, where

1:19

murder, memory and morality

1:21

go on trial. This

1:24

is the story of Deep Cover, The

1:26

Nameless Man, posted by me,

1:28

Jake Halpern. Today, I'm in

1:31

your feed to bring you an episode from our

1:33

latest season. Listen to Deep

1:35

Cover, The Nameless Man, wherever you get

1:37

your podcasts, and enjoy this

1:39

preview. I've

1:41

been a journalist for 25 years, and

1:44

there's this little ritual that I do at the end

1:46

of every interview. When it

1:48

works, it shakes everything up, creates

1:51

a bit of chaos. I

1:53

call it the Hail Mary of questions.

1:57

It's like a last-ditch effort to find

1:59

something, any- that I might have missed. I

2:02

just say, Hey, what's the

2:04

question I should have asked you? Most

2:07

of the time, like 90% of

2:09

the time, the answer is, I don't know. I

2:12

think we covered it all. But

2:15

every once in a while person

2:17

says, well, there

2:20

is one thing we didn't talk about. And

2:23

then they drop a bomb, say

2:26

something totally unexpected. And at

2:28

that moment, I always imagine

2:30

a door creaking open. That

2:36

in a nutshell, is what this season

2:38

is about. It's about a guy, two

2:40

guys actually, who come upon just

2:43

such a door. And on the

2:45

other side of it is a very dark

2:47

secret. These

2:54

two guys were federal officers. One

2:56

of them was an FBI agent based

2:58

in Delaware, named Scott Duffy. And

3:01

Scott, he has his

3:03

own version of the Hail Mary question. One

3:07

of the things that like I will

3:09

routinely do is, is there

3:12

anything that we should be

3:14

looking at that

3:17

could be investigated that

3:19

we're not looking at. Back

3:22

in 2004, Scott posed

3:24

this very question to a woman

3:26

named Patricia Miller. At

3:28

the time, Scott was visiting Patricia at

3:31

her home in Delaware to learn more

3:33

about her ex boyfriend, a guy named

3:35

Tom Guybison. There had

3:37

been some rumors that Tom her ex

3:39

was plotting to go after a local cop.

3:42

And the FBI had asked Scott to look into

3:44

this to do a so

3:46

called threat assessment. Scott

3:49

didn't get that much out of this interview with Patricia.

3:52

But before leaving, he tossed

3:54

out his Hail Mary question. And

3:57

that's when she told him about

3:59

the murder. She mentions, well,

4:01

there is this alleged murder

4:03

to have taken place, that when

4:05

he was in high school, that

4:09

he had committed a murder for black

4:11

man in order

4:13

to gain access into this white

4:16

supremacy group within Delaware.

4:19

Patricia goes on to say that Tom,

4:21

her ex, was proud of this murder.

4:24

It happened back when he was younger, a

4:26

teenager, but even years later, he bragged about

4:29

what he'd done. How

4:31

he'd driven into Philadelphia late at night

4:33

and shot a pedestrian, a random

4:36

black man, all allegedly

4:38

so he could earn some street cred

4:40

as a racist skinhead. Scott

4:49

pressed Patricia for details. Was

4:52

there any evidence? Did she have any proof? According

4:55

to Scott, she talked about a newspaper

4:57

article from the time, about

5:00

the man's death, and how

5:02

it was described as a drug-related

5:04

killing. She said that Tom

5:06

held on to this article for a while so

5:08

he could brag about it. Intimating,

5:12

no one knows, but I did

5:14

this. I killed this guy. That's

5:17

what Patricia said anyhow. All

5:20

of this got Scott thinking, if

5:22

this murder really happened, maybe

5:25

it wasn't so random after all. Maybe

5:28

it was predicated on a callous, cynical

5:30

piece of logic that no

5:32

one would care about this victim, or

5:35

at least no one in a position of

5:37

power or authority. If

5:39

there's no evidence and there's no witnesses,

5:41

no cameras, let's move on. And that's

5:43

what Tom would be banking on, and just

5:46

be a drug deal gone bad. That

5:48

bothered me. That bothered me. You

6:00

don't even know who the victim is. Eventually

6:03

Scott and his partner paid a visit to

6:05

the Free Public Library of Philadelphia. They

6:08

wanted to find that newspaper article covering

6:10

the victim's death. Scott

6:12

recalled Patricia saying it was in

6:14

the Philadelphia Inquirer. They

6:17

felt like if they could just somehow

6:19

get ahold of that article, it

6:21

might answer so many questions. In

6:24

other words, would this give us a name? Would

6:26

this give us a location? Would this give us

6:28

a date? Because we still didn't have a date.

6:31

But there's gotta be countless articles of

6:33

people that were just randomly killed in

6:35

Philadelphia. Not only countless articles, but then

6:37

you realize there are other newspapers. What

6:39

if she's wrong? It's not the Philadelphia

6:41

Inquirer. It sounds like

6:44

a fool's errand. I'm glad we

6:46

did it. I'm glad we made

6:48

the trip. But I

6:51

don't think we found anything. Nothing. So

6:55

game over, right? I

6:57

mean, this murder, if it

6:59

even happened, would have occurred approximately 15

7:01

years prior. It

7:03

was a cold case. And

7:06

yet Scott and his partner, a

7:08

guy named Terry Mortimer, they

7:10

had this feeling that if

7:12

they persisted, we

7:15

might uncover something

7:17

we're destined to uncover. That

7:20

may sound corny, but I

7:24

felt something. I think Terry

7:26

felt something and we didn't know

7:29

quite what. And it could have been absolutely

7:31

taking us down another rabbit hole of something

7:33

that's just never could be proven. So

7:36

what do you do with that? Exactly, what

7:38

do you do with that? What do you do with something

7:40

that's- Yeah, and not to be cute, but you can't exactly

7:42

go back to your boss and say that me and Terry

7:44

feel a sense of destiny here, right? No.

7:48

So this was mission creep, big time.

7:51

Plus, it's not like there was anyone

7:53

that they knew of anyhow, demanding justice

7:55

for the victim. Terry

7:57

and I could have easily said we're-

8:00

done it and let's walk away.

8:02

Nobody's going to be calling us to say,

8:04

Hey, Terry, and Scott,

8:07

do you have any updates for us? You

8:10

know, we're waiting, we haven't heard back from

8:12

you. That was missing. But

8:14

is somewhere in the back of

8:16

your head? Are you imagining that

8:18

like, there's a mother or brother who's

8:20

trying to understand

8:23

or figure out what may have happened to their

8:25

loved one that was left

8:28

for dead? I think that that

8:30

aspect was

8:34

the driving factor.

8:37

We couldn't just leave it alone.

8:40

Somehow, it

8:42

was making sense that

8:45

Terry and I were put together for

8:47

this very reason of

8:50

solving this hate

8:53

crime, this murder that took place

8:55

on the streets of Philadelphia, because

8:57

somebody was black, that

9:00

we felt like

9:02

we had

9:04

a duty to this person and somehow

9:06

this person was drawing

9:10

us. And

9:13

that's it. You can almost

9:15

hear it. The door creaking

9:18

open. This

9:22

is a story about what happens when

9:24

two guys uncover a clue about

9:27

something terrible, something evil,

9:30

a crime for which there has been no justice. And

9:33

they have anything to go on. They

9:36

don't have a victim, don't have a body. I

9:39

don't even have a name. I'm

9:55

Jake Halpern, and this is Deep

9:57

Cover, season four, The Nameless

9:59

Man. The

10:12

rumor. So

10:25

to recap, Scott and

10:27

Terry's investigation did not start off as

10:29

a quest to solve a Cole case

10:31

now or find a murder victim. Originally,

10:34

back in 2004, they

10:37

were asked to do a threat assessment on

10:39

Tom Guybison. That's why

10:41

they interviewed the ex-girlfriend. At

10:44

the time, Tom Guybison was 33 years old. He

10:47

was in federal prison on gun charges, but

10:50

he was about to be released, and

10:52

the feds had some intel that

10:55

Tom might be seeking retribution, planning

10:57

to harm the cop who'd put him behind

11:00

bars. This is why

11:02

the feds were called in, and initially,

11:04

this was Scott and Terry's top

11:06

priority to determine if this

11:08

threat was real, but they

11:10

came up short and at some point stopped

11:12

looking into Tom for the threat assessment. But

11:15

they still have this rumor, this

11:17

side story, that some 15

11:20

years prior, back in the 1980s,

11:22

when Tom was still in high school, that

11:25

he may have killed a black man in

11:27

Philadelphia. Who

11:30

this man might be, they had no

11:32

idea, but they kept

11:34

poking around. They wanted

11:36

to see what they could learn about Tom

11:38

Guybison and if he had

11:41

any connections to white supremacist gangs.

11:45

And this is where Terry Mortimer,

11:48

Scott's partner, really came into

11:50

play. And this is the

11:52

thing about gangs, there are gangs and there's not

11:54

real gangs. People

11:56

say they're part of a gang, but they aren't kind of thing. special

12:00

agent with the ATF, the

12:02

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms,

12:05

and Explosives. He

12:07

worked in intelligence, and

12:09

he focused heavily on guns and

12:11

gangs. So, Terry

12:13

wanted to know, what was Tom's

12:16

deal? I knew

12:18

he, of course, was imprisoned, obviously, for gun

12:20

charges. You know, spent a good stint in

12:22

prison, federally. He

12:26

had, I guess, prior contact with the law. Terry

12:28

learned that Tom was first arrested at

12:31

the age of 14 on a deadly

12:33

weapons charge. A few years

12:35

later, when he was 19, he was

12:37

convicted of reckless endangerment after

12:40

he shot a gun at a moving car full

12:42

of people. At

12:45

the time, a local newspaper in Wilmington,

12:48

Delaware, ran an article on Tom. It

12:51

described him as a hulking weightlifter with

12:53

a number of tattoos, including

12:55

a clenched fist on the top of

12:57

his scalp, and the words, born

12:59

in the USA, on the back of his

13:02

neck. In the article,

13:04

Guy Bison says, at one time, he

13:06

was a blue collar skinhead. Tom

13:09

defined this as, quote, buying

13:11

American, not doing drugs, and

13:14

not drinking. To

13:16

be clear, there are different types of

13:18

skinheads, not all are racist. But

13:21

in the late 80s and early 90s, skinheads

13:23

were emerging as the face of violent

13:26

right-wing nationalism in the US. Their

13:28

notoriety seemed to really peak at that time.

13:31

One headline from 89 in the New York

13:34

Times read, violent racism

13:36

attracts new breed, skinheads.

13:40

So the possibility that a racist

13:42

skinhead might have orchestrated murder, it

13:45

was plausible. But

13:47

that alone wasn't a whole lot to

13:49

go on. Pat

13:55

and Terry decided to focus on what

13:57

Patricia, the ex-girlfriend, had told them. They

14:00

honed in on two clues in particular. The

14:03

first clue involved a tattoo. Patricia

14:07

mentioned that Tom had a tattoo of

14:09

a spider web on his elbow with

14:11

a teardrop in it, and

14:13

that he liked to brag that he'd gotten it

14:16

essentially as a badge of honor for

14:19

killing a black man in Philadelphia.

14:22

I know enough about gang members is sometimes things

14:25

aren't what they say they are that they might

14:28

get a tattoo and purported to be something that really

14:30

isn't true or just kind of build their rap a

14:32

little bit. Kerry was skeptical

14:34

that Tom had killed someone just to

14:36

join this skinhead gang. Maybe

14:39

Tom was just posing, building up his

14:41

rap as a really violent dude. I

14:44

mean, honestly, maybe this whole

14:46

thing was bullshit, right? I

14:48

couldn't really establish intelligence-wise if Tommy was part

14:50

of the skinhead gang. I didn't think he

14:53

was. I think he was kind of more

14:55

of a self-described skinhead. And

14:57

this raised the question. When a

14:59

self-described skinhead, acting on his own,

15:02

really murdered someone for what? So

15:04

he could give himself a tattoo?

15:07

And all of this while he was still in high school? Seemed

15:10

like a stretch. Okay,

15:12

here was the second clue. And

15:15

it was a promising one. According

15:17

to the ex-girlfriend Patricia, Tom

15:20

had bragged about having an accomplice,

15:23

a guy named Craig Peterson. Allegedly,

15:25

they orchestrated this murder together,

15:27

and both of them got

15:30

those same spiderweb tattoos. Now,

15:33

if this was true, and if

15:36

they could find Craig, and if he

15:38

would talk, well, that'd be

15:40

huge, but that was a lot of

15:42

if. So they

15:44

started combing through public records, asking

15:47

around about this Craig guy, the

15:49

supposed accomplice. And here's

15:51

what they found. Craig was an

15:53

old buddy from Tom's high school days. He

15:56

also identified specifically as a

15:59

blue-collar skinhead. Craig

16:01

had grown up in Delaware, but as

16:03

far as anyone could tell, he wasn't

16:05

living there anymore. It seemed like

16:08

he kind of disappeared. And

16:11

then they got a lead. We

16:13

found out he's in Vermont, like a

16:16

remote part of Vermont. And

16:18

I remember I said, this

16:20

dude's hiding, man. He's hiding. I

16:23

said, that cat from Wilmington, Delaware, lived in Vermont,

16:25

man. I said, dude, it gets cold up there,

16:27

man. I mean, that's a cold place, bro. So

16:31

they put on their winter coats and

16:33

headed north. It

16:38

was now December of 2004. It

16:41

had been about a month since they first heard the

16:43

rumor. And now here they

16:45

were in the car, driving into the

16:47

chill of a Vermont winter. Temperature

16:50

was hovering around freezing matinee. And

16:53

as they sped along through the

16:55

green mountains past darkened forests of

16:58

evergreens, they had no idea what

17:00

to expect. Like,

17:03

what are you hoping to find out? At

17:07

this point, we're like, man, whatever he's

17:09

got, he's got to give us something, man,

17:11

because we're, again, we're spinning our wheels. It

17:13

felt like, man, if this has come

17:15

through, I think we're, I think honestly, I think we're done. Barry

17:19

recalls on that drive up to Vermont,

17:21

they talked a lot about why they

17:23

couldn't or shouldn't give up on the

17:25

case. So we had great,

17:27

great discussions. And that's when I really,

17:29

we both realized, wow, wait a minute, this is not an

17:32

accident that he and I are team together. This

17:34

is like literally, we didn't do

17:36

this. We couldn't plan this. And

17:38

there was a reason for this feeling. Turns

17:41

out there was a strange symmetry to

17:43

their lives that dated back to before

17:45

they ever met. So

17:48

we're going to leave Scott and Terry

17:50

in the car, heading up to Vermont

17:52

and turn back the clock. When

18:00

he got, it all started when he graduated

18:02

high school. He wanted to be

18:04

a cop, but by his own estimation, at

18:06

the time, he was too

18:08

small, too skinny. He weighed just 93

18:10

pounds. So,

18:13

instead, he opted to become a

18:15

priest. He was

18:17

just 17 years old when he decided

18:19

to join the seminary, but right away,

18:21

when he put on that priest's collar,

18:24

it was transformative, both for him

18:26

and also for the way that other

18:28

people looked at him. I

18:31

would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying

18:33

in a church. Somebody would come by

18:35

and start confessing, and people just started

18:37

pouring their souls out to me. In

18:41

these moments, Scott was learning how to listen,

18:44

how to suspend judgment, how

18:46

to be patient as people grappled

18:48

with some burdensome secret, inching their

18:50

way towards the precipice of truth.

18:54

He spent five years training to become a

18:56

priest, but dreams are

18:58

stubborn things, and his

19:00

didn't go away. He

19:02

left the seminary to become a cop and

19:05

then an FBI agent. It

19:07

is harder to leave than it is to

19:09

go in, and that's ultimately because I think

19:11

now you've entered this relationship with

19:13

God, and now you're afraid of

19:16

pissing him off. For Scott,

19:18

this shift in careers seemed like a

19:20

natural progression. For

19:22

him, the seminary prepared him for this

19:25

work, prepared him to

19:27

listen and see his way through

19:29

a messy world fraught with moral

19:31

dilemmas. But when he'd

19:33

tell people about his past, how he'd

19:36

almost become a priest, they're like,

19:38

oh my gosh, I can never

19:40

imagine. The two are

19:42

totally opposed to each other, and I never

19:44

understood that. But

19:46

there was at least one person

19:48

who got it completely, Terry. I

19:52

went to college at a very

19:54

small Bible college and was

19:56

preparing for ministry. destined

20:00

for the ministry. But later

20:02

on, when he was in Bible college, he

20:05

had second thoughts. As graduation

20:07

approached, a friend asked him, do

20:09

you ever consider becoming a cop? The

20:12

short answer was no, but on

20:15

a whim, Terry applied and met with

20:17

a recruiter. And this guy was

20:19

a hardcore dude. I mean, back

20:23

then I was skinny. He looked

20:25

at me and said, you're from where? And you

20:27

want to do what? Like, you're from Bible college,

20:29

man. Do you have any idea what you're applying

20:31

for? What you're trying to do? I said, no,

20:34

sir. I have no idea. Terry

20:36

was undeterred. He became a

20:38

cop and then an agent with the ATF.

20:41

And this was not a consolation

20:43

job for Terry. He's very clear about

20:46

this. He feels that

20:48

God had a purpose for him in

20:50

law enforcement. And that's

20:52

the thing you got to understand about both

20:54

Terry and Scott. These are not

20:56

men who look at the world and see coincidences. What

21:00

they see is much closer to

21:02

fate or God's will. And

21:05

when they became partners, it all

21:07

seemed meant to be here were two

21:09

guys who early on looked too skinny and

21:11

earnest to be pop guys

21:13

who intended to become men of God, different

21:16

in their own ways. Terry

21:18

grew up in a gritty river town

21:20

in Pennsylvania, and he kind

21:22

of feels like a dude you'd play around

21:24

a mini golf with, grab a burger, have

21:26

a laugh, and then realize only

21:29

belatedly that you told him more than

21:31

you intended to Scott.

21:33

Well, he's more formal. He's

21:35

from Connecticut, a really Yankee,

21:38

a man who chooses his words carefully,

21:40

a patient priest who knows how

21:42

to nurse a long pregnant pause.

21:45

The two of them worked well together,

21:47

complimented one another, the Pennsylvania

21:50

pastor and the New England priest. And

21:56

I've been calling them partners, but they only

21:59

ever worked together. on this

22:01

one investigation. It was

22:03

an unusual collaboration between the FBI

22:05

and the ATF and they didn't

22:07

choose one another. They were kind

22:09

of paired randomly though neither

22:12

of them would say it was random. You

22:14

know that's we started realizing wait a minute we're

22:18

on a mission from God. Yep

22:22

just like the Blues Brothers. We

22:25

didn't really say that I'm just making it up

22:27

but that was that was the feeling. Well hey

22:29

no but it was like no joke like this

22:31

is the real deal like like it's almost like

22:33

we're walking through almost like a dream like what

22:35

is going on here? So

22:38

yeah even though all they had

22:40

was a rumor of a long-forgotten

22:42

crime that might not have even

22:45

happened these two

22:47

almost ministers the God squad

22:49

as it were still felt

22:51

certain that they were here in

22:53

this car heading north into Vermont

22:56

for a reason and they were

22:58

convinced that something important was

23:00

waiting for them. That's

23:03

when we get back. I'm

23:24

Jordan Heathrawling host of the big story.

23:27

For six years now we've been telling

23:29

one story a day every one of

23:31

them about something that matters to Canadians.

23:34

This spring though we're going deeper. The

23:37

big story presents Paydirt

23:39

the inside story of Ontario's

23:41

Greenbelt scandal from political games

23:43

to stag and doe parties

23:46

endangered species RCMP investigations and

23:48

Las Vegas massages you

23:50

will hear the full story. The big

23:52

story presents Paydirt new episodes

23:55

every Monday and you can get

23:57

them all by following the big

23:59

story wherever. you get your podcast. Both

24:06

Scott and Terry had this hunch

24:08

that there was a reason Craig,

24:10

the alleged accomplice, was up in

24:12

Vermont, up in the mountains, that

24:15

he was hiding. But

24:17

if so, who was he hiding

24:19

from and why? In

24:22

any case, they knew they had to be careful. They

24:25

learned from police reports that in the

24:27

past, Craig had helped Tom clean and

24:30

store a whole arsenal of weapons. Why

24:33

did he do this? Well, Tom had a

24:35

felony on his record, which meant he wasn't

24:37

supposed to have any guns, so

24:39

his buddy Craig helped him out. This

24:42

suggested two things to the agents. One,

24:45

Craig was loyal. He ended up going

24:47

to prison for throwing those weapons. And

24:50

two, Craig was probably handy with a

24:52

gun. The God

24:54

Squad was still hatching their plan as

24:56

they rolled into town. It

25:02

was late. I

25:05

feel like we were closing in on midnight and

25:08

we didn't want to put it off. We

25:10

were just so full of energy. It

25:14

was late for a door knock, very late,

25:17

but their excitement eclipsed their caution.

25:20

So instead of waiting until morning, they

25:23

drove right to his house. Their

25:25

plan was to say hello, introduce

25:27

themselves and arrange to have a formal

25:30

sit down the following day. And

25:33

when we finally found where he

25:35

lives, he lives literally on top

25:38

of like, if it's on a mountain, it's a very,

25:40

very tall hill. It's very tall and very steep. I

25:42

remember it being very,

25:45

very dark. I

25:48

don't think I could see my hand in front of me. And

25:51

as soon as we got out of our cars, I

25:55

think we got out a few feet and

25:57

then floodlights. Just remember

25:59

floodlights. like we were in a stadium, just

26:02

shined upon us. I

26:05

mean, it was like bright as day. He

26:08

had hooked up these spotlights and trees, illuminating

26:11

the whole area. And we could see

26:13

his house dimly up the top of the hill. I

26:15

think I may have made a comment to Scott. I said,

26:17

man, if he had any ill intent, we'd

26:20

be dead men right now. That

26:22

told me a lot that, wow. Um,

26:27

you know, what is inside this

26:29

person that he has this going

26:31

on, where he wants

26:33

to be made well aware of anybody

26:36

arriving? I'm

26:38

thinking man, he does not want

26:40

to be found. Scott

26:47

and Terry start trudging up the

26:49

icy snow-covered hill. They

26:52

can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually

26:55

they get up to the front porch and

26:58

Craig walks out. He's medium

27:00

height and stocky with a closely

27:02

cropped haircut. Scott

27:04

calls out to him. Craig Peterson,

27:06

you don't know us, but we're here. I

27:09

want to talk to you federal agents. Can

27:11

we approach you? Can

27:13

we come up to your house and within

27:17

10 seconds, just

27:20

a very friendly,

27:23

inviting demeanor. Go on up and

27:25

come into my house. Is this

27:27

a sigh of relief with that? But definitely

27:29

a sigh of relief. First and foremost, we've

27:31

achieved. Our first goal

27:33

is finding him. Achieved our

27:36

second goal of being

27:38

able to be face to face with him.

27:41

Our third goal was to get him to come

27:45

and speak with us at a different location. We

27:47

weren't going to talk to him at his house.

27:50

Craig invites them inside. He

27:52

introduces them to his fiance. It's

27:54

all very normal. And Craig,

27:57

he seems unphased. He was

27:59

very relaxed. very

28:01

gracious. I mean, just almost opposite of

28:03

what I was expecting. Scott

28:06

and Terry explained that they just have a

28:08

few questions for him about an old matter

28:10

from the past. They keep

28:12

it deliberately vague and they ask if he'd

28:14

be willing to meet with them the following

28:17

day down at the barracks where the Vermont

28:19

State Police are stationed. Craig's

28:21

like, sure, I'll meet you tomorrow after

28:24

I'm done with work. All

28:26

the while, Terry is studying both

28:28

Craig and his fiance, trying

28:31

to get a read on them. His

28:33

fiance was way more

28:35

concerned than he was. Like she was like, what's going

28:37

on? Like what's this about? He's not

28:39

stressed at all. Like there's no

28:41

stress with this guy. Like there's nothing. I'm like,

28:43

this is unbelievable. The

28:46

next day, Scott and Terry are down at the

28:48

barracks of the Vermont State Police and

28:51

they're just hoping Craig actually shows up.

28:54

He ain't gonna show up. Like what's

28:56

the odds he's gonna show up? Like, you know, I

28:58

was like 50-50. But

29:00

he shows up. In fact, he's early.

29:03

And after a little chit chat, they

29:05

all sit down and get to business. Scott

29:08

explains that they're here about

29:10

Tom Guybison. Craig,

29:13

we've made a long

29:15

trip and we've been

29:17

investigating Tom

29:19

for a possible threat. And

29:22

during the course of that investigation, we've

29:26

learned that a story was told. This

29:30

is the story they'd heard from

29:32

Patricia, Tom's ex-girlfriend, that some 15

29:34

years prior, Craig and Tom had

29:36

been skinheads, that they'd killed

29:39

a black man in Philadelphia and

29:41

then gotten tattoos to commemorate what

29:43

they'd done. And

29:45

Craig just looked at us. Shocked.

29:54

Almost a sense of I

29:59

can't believe. that

30:01

this is coming back. And

30:06

then he sat back in his chair and said,

30:11

I don't know what you're talking about.

30:16

Scott keeps pressing gently, very

30:18

much playing the role of the New England priest

30:21

that he almost was, concealing

30:23

any signs of judgment, just

30:25

patiently probing. Well,

30:29

at the very least, would you

30:32

admit you have the tattoo? Why

30:34

would they lie about the story? Would

30:37

they also lie about the tattoo? So

30:42

would you raise your sleeve? And

30:48

so, begrudgingly, he did. He showed us his

30:52

tattoo. A

30:54

Gothic looking spider web in black ink

30:56

with the elbow directly at the center,

30:59

similar to what Patricia had described. Craig

31:02

admitted that he and Tom both had tattoos

31:05

like this, that they'd gotten them

31:07

together back in high school. And

31:09

Craig admitted that back in his youth,

31:11

yeah, he'd been a skinhead, but

31:13

it had just been a phase. He

31:17

said, Ben, that was a long time ago. I was a young knucklehead

31:20

and I don't believe that stuff anymore. You

31:22

know, man, I'm up here. I'm working hard, man. Guys,

31:25

I work every day. I really wage. I work

31:27

as an electrician. I've got a new life. I

31:31

don't want any part of this. He just denied the whole thing. But I

31:34

can't overemphasize. I'm watching

31:36

this cat. I'm like, he's not stressed at all. At

31:39

this point, despite the fact that

31:41

Craig had this tattoo, which offered

31:44

some corroboration, Scott and

31:46

Terry basically have to let him go. They

31:48

say, hey, let's keep in touch. If

31:51

you ever come down to Delaware, please let us know. We

31:53

like to keep talking. And he was,

31:55

he said, yeah, if I come down there, like, Jake,

31:58

no one's ever going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. look he

32:00

eyes up if I'm ever down in Delaware sure like we're gonna

32:02

have a dinner together I'm thinking nobody does

32:04

that nobody wants to talk to

32:06

their least favorite FBI and ATF agent in

32:08

the world about a homicide they didn't commit. In

32:11

Terry's mind it was weird how

32:14

friendly he was and it also

32:16

seemed difficult to imagine that this

32:18

guy right here this laid-back electrician

32:21

living in Vermont could be capable

32:23

of orchestrating a murder.

32:27

If the dude was in the car with

32:30

and they did a homicide however

32:32

went down whoever pulled the

32:34

trigger thinking I'm not seeing it I mean

32:37

if it did happen and he was in the very car

32:39

I see nothing nonverbal in this

32:41

guy there's no stress there's

32:43

no deception I'm looking at his

32:46

eyes I'm looking at his whole facial

32:48

I'm looking everything I'm thinking this guy's like

32:50

the he liked the best liar ever. So

32:53

they say goodbye to Craig they

32:55

thank the Vermont State Troopers they walk out

32:57

of the barracks get in their car and

33:00

head home all the while

33:02

trying to make sense of what they've just

33:04

learned. I

33:07

said Scott I don't think it

33:09

happened man because what do you

33:11

mean I said there's no way that

33:13

dude there's no way I said maybe Tommy did something

33:15

I don't know but he didn't do nothing I'm

33:18

telling you that dude is way too cool and

33:20

Scott he goes nah I

33:22

kind of think something's there man this

33:24

happened and

33:28

we're definitely not stopping I

33:30

said Scott I'm not seeing it man I

33:32

said dude I said I think we're toast bro after

33:36

this time passes about a

33:38

year and a half and during this

33:40

stretch the very little happens in this case

33:44

Craig keeps living his quiet life up in

33:46

the Vermont mountains occasionally the

33:48

God squad gives him a call just to

33:51

check in but Craig never tells

33:53

him anything new meanwhile

33:55

Tom Guybison finishes serving his time

33:58

in federal prison he's released,

34:00

goes back to living in Delaware, where

34:02

he seems to stay out of trouble.

34:06

Then one day, in April of 2006,

34:08

the God Squad gets

34:10

a phone call from Craig.

34:13

Craig says, hey, basically I'm

34:15

coming down to see my mom. You

34:18

know, do you guys want to still talk to me? I'm

34:20

incredulous. The dude is volunteering.

34:23

You know, nothing's happened in the year and whatever months it's been.

34:26

There's no subpoenas, there's no arrests, there's no search warrants,

34:28

nothing. He's got to think he's scot-free. Are

34:31

you pretty surprised to get this phone call? Yeah,

34:34

I mean, again, I'm like, this is

34:36

unbelievable. It doesn't make any sense to me.

34:39

Honestly, I literally felt like,

34:44

does he want friends? Does he need friends? There's

34:46

some things that are miraculous. They

34:49

don't look miraculous, but they literally are miraculous.

34:51

So that doesn't happen in the real world,

34:53

man. It doesn't happen. Terry

34:55

and Scott are determined to make the most of

34:58

this meeting and they go

35:00

for a new strategy. They've tried

35:02

the whole Goodcock routine and it hasn't

35:04

worked, not really. So

35:07

time to apply a little pressure. They

35:09

get a subpoena requiring Craig to

35:11

testify before a grand jury about

35:14

the murder that allegedly took place.

35:17

This is no joke. The subpoena

35:19

will put Craig on the spot because

35:21

lying before a grand jury is a

35:23

serious offense. They can land you in

35:25

prison for years. But remember,

35:28

they still have pretty much nothing on Craig at

35:30

this point. So the subpoena, it's

35:33

kind of a bluff. What's

35:35

your mindset going into that meeting? Our

35:38

mindset is this. We

35:42

had a subpoena. We're

35:45

going to give it to them. You always have

35:47

to hand deliver it. There was going to

35:49

be no more will of room, no more postponements. This

35:51

is now going to be the make it or break

35:54

it. So Craig

35:56

shows up at the FBI's offices in

35:58

Wilmington, Delaware. He's got no

36:00

idea that there's a subpoena waiting for him.

36:04

What happens next, we piece together from

36:06

talking to the agents and reading

36:08

their report from that day. Initially,

36:11

it's all smiles. Perry keeps the

36:13

whole thing really upbeat. Hey,

36:15

we thank you for coming down. This is awesome.

36:19

You know, we really appreciate it. They

36:22

asked Craig again about the rumor of

36:24

the murder down in Philadelphia. They

36:26

tell him, we don't think you're telling

36:28

us the truth. And

36:31

this time, instead of denying the whole

36:33

thing outright, Craig concedes

36:35

that maybe back at the

36:37

time, there'd been some chatter about this. I

36:40

think he said something like, yeah, we heard

36:42

rumors about that, that someone said we did

36:44

a homicide, but man, that's no, that's nothing

36:46

to it. We didn't do any homicide. It's

36:49

a bunch of junk. Didn't happen. Yeah,

36:52

maybe Tommy said that's going to build our rep a

36:54

little bit. In other

36:56

words, a bit of bragging, but nothing more

36:58

than that. The agents

37:01

push Craig, tell him, we

37:03

believe a homicide occurred and that

37:05

you participated in it. Eventually,

37:08

when the meeting is almost over, the

37:11

hand Craig, the subpoena and kind

37:13

of hold their breath. And

37:15

again, we're shooting blanks. We have nothing,

37:17

right? Well, his whole demeanor changed. When

37:20

he got to subpoena, he's like, what?

37:22

The stress, right? Went from

37:24

like zero to like he's, he's hitting about a

37:27

10. That

37:30

meeting ends without a breakthrough. Craig

37:33

didn't admit to anything, but a

37:35

few days later, he calls them

37:37

back, says he wants to meet

37:39

again, have another sit down. So

37:42

they reconvene. And

37:44

at this meeting, right off the

37:46

bat, the mood is tense. When

37:51

he arrived, I

37:54

could tell he was depleted, um,

37:58

shaken. His whole

38:00

body had changed to a defeatist

38:04

demeanor. It

38:06

was like completely, completely 180

38:08

degree change. And he

38:11

literally, it's hard to describe, it

38:14

was literally like an invisible hand was

38:16

pushing him down in the chair. He

38:19

physically got smaller. I saw him shrink

38:21

like, like, like he was like getting

38:24

deflated. He started

38:26

sweating. Bees of sweat

38:28

were popping out. You

38:30

could feel the tension, but you can also

38:32

feel like, uh... He's

38:37

about to say something, and

38:40

then he says, I'll

38:42

tell you everything. I'll tell you everything.

38:48

And at this moment, it seemed like maybe, just

38:51

maybe, they'd been right all along not to

38:53

give up on this. And

38:56

that the truth was finally at hand. Coming

39:04

up this season on Deep Cover. We

39:08

have to do our job, and

39:11

we have to find out who we are. And

39:13

we have to find out who

39:16

did they kill. Not that

39:18

any murder isn't disturbing, but this

39:21

particular murder and the reason for

39:23

it, the hate. This

39:25

was a hate crime. I

39:29

believe Tom Guy was from his innocent.

39:31

They had no physical evidence. They had

39:33

no gun. They had nothing. We

39:37

didn't like the speculation. The

39:39

family and I thought that this would be

39:42

good if we found at least

39:44

what happened to them. We can't do nothing about it.

39:46

We can't bring them back, but at least we'll find

39:48

out the truth. Deep

40:14

Cover is produced by Amy Gaines

40:16

McQuaid and Jacob Smith. It's

40:19

edited by Karen Shkirny, mastering

40:21

by Jake Korsky. Our

40:23

show art was designed by Sean Kearney. Our

40:26

show's scoring and our theme was composed by

40:28

Luis Guerra. Our

40:33

story consultant was James Forman Jr.

40:36

Special thanks to Jerry Williams, Sarah

40:38

Nicks, Greta Cohn, and Jake Flanagan.

41:42

For more CBC podcasts, go to

41:44

cbc.ca.