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1:01

Listen to this A-Cast show, ad-free

1:04

on Amazon Music with your Prime

1:06

membership, or subscribe wherever you get

1:08

your podcasts. I'm

1:16

Dom Nichols, and this is Ukraine, the Latest.

1:19

Today, we discuss the latest from

1:22

the Kharkiv battlefield, hear warnings from

1:24

Norwegian intelligence of Russian sabotage operations

1:26

across Europe, ask whether

1:28

there's about to be a shift in

1:30

US policy over the use of Western

1:32

weapons inside Russia, and later,

1:35

we hear about a new film

1:37

exploring the soldiers' road to redemption.

1:40

Bravery takes you through

1:42

the most unimaginable

1:44

hardships to

1:46

finally reward you with victory.

1:49

If we give President Zelensky

1:51

the tools, the Ukrainians will

1:53

finish the job. Slava Ukraini.

1:56

Nobody's gonna break us. We're

1:58

strong. We're Ukraine. year. Every

2:02

weekday we sit down to the leading journalists

2:04

from the Telegraph's London newsroom and our teams

2:07

reporting on the ground to bring you the

2:09

latest news and analysis on the war in

2:11

Ukraine. It's Thursday the 23rd

2:13

of May, two years and

2:15

90 days since the full-scale invasion began.

2:19

Today I'm joined by assistant

2:21

comment editor Francis Durnley and

2:23

former paratrooper, now explorer, travel

2:25

writer and documentary filmmaker Levison

2:27

Wood. I started with

2:29

the latest news from Ukraine. Let's

2:33

start up in the north around Chansk. Geolocated

2:36

footage from yesterday shows

2:39

Russian and Ukrainian forces are

2:41

both advanced in different parts of the town

2:43

of Novchank, so still a lot of fighting

2:46

going on there. It's quite fluid, not

2:48

huge changes to Russia's

2:51

disposition. They're not breaking out, but there's

2:53

clearly a lot of fighting going on.

2:56

More geolocated footage elsewhere in the

2:58

country from yesterday's suggestion Ukraine has

3:00

advanced very slightly to the east

3:03

of Chassivyar. Russia has advanced again

3:05

very slightly to the west and

3:07

also southwest of Donetsk city. Now

3:10

back up in the north, Russian

3:13

forces carried out 15 strikes against

3:15

Harkiv and the wider oblast yesterday.

3:17

It's thought to have been with

3:19

S-300 missiles. This comes from the

3:22

regional prosecutor's office spokesperson, Dmycho Jabenko.

3:25

He was speaking to Sir Spill and

3:27

that's the national public broadcaster of Ukraine.

3:29

More on that in a moment. Russia

3:32

also launched strikes with KAV

3:34

bombs against Harkiv, the glide

3:36

bombs against Harkiv and the

3:38

nearby town of Dihachi. That's

3:41

about 5K northwest of Harkiv.

3:43

Governor Oles Sivanov reporting

3:45

there. The glide bombs,

3:47

just as a reminder, these relatively

3:49

new innovation, they're very

3:52

old weapons, but a new innovation. They're

3:55

built by taking a very old,

3:58

in many cases Soviet era, dumb

4:00

bomb adding fold out wings

4:02

and a satellite navigation pack

4:05

and then they turned into this new weapon

4:07

of glide bombs that you know significantly cheaper

4:10

than cruise missiles or ballistic missiles. The

4:13

KAB that is referred

4:15

to it stands for here we

4:17

go correcti ryomaya avyotsanaya bomba

4:19

which means adjustable aircraft bomb. Okay so

4:22

it's a bomb that's got wings and

4:24

it's a satellite guided supposed to have

4:26

more accuracy than just the just sort

4:29

of gravity, gravity dumb bombs.

4:32

Anyway in Hakeef these the missiles

4:34

and these bombs caused deaths and

4:36

injuries. Last report I saw about

4:38

20 minutes ago seven dead

4:40

and over 20 I think injured

4:43

at the VVAP printing house and

4:45

bookshop. That's a place where

4:47

it sells books as you'd imagine and

4:50

it's where folk go to talk about art

4:52

and literature. Regional Police Chief

4:54

Lord Amir Tamashko he said this is

4:57

a purely civilian site it is a

4:59

print works that prints books. Right a

5:01

slight segue if you'll forgive me. So

5:04

I read that and

5:06

I want to have a look at the website of the bit

5:09

of a clunky title but the UN

5:11

Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility

5:13

to Protect. Quite long winded but it sort

5:15

of says what it does. Now the

5:17

UN Office says

5:19

quote to constitute genocide there

5:21

must be a proven intent

5:24

on the part of perpetrators

5:26

to physically destroy a national,

5:28

ethnical, racial or religious group.

5:30

Cultural destruction does not suffice.

5:32

End quote. There's a lot of talk about

5:35

this is genocide Russia is trying to wipe out

5:37

the Ukrainian national identity through destroying

5:40

cultural sites and icons. Okay so

5:43

I had a quick I look into it. The office

5:45

carries on the UN Office it says

5:47

quote the popular understanding of what constitutes

5:49

genocide tends to be broader

5:51

than the content of the norm

5:53

under international law. Article

5:56

2 of the Genocide Convention contains

5:58

a narrow definition the

6:00

crime genocide which includes two

6:02

main elements. A mental element

6:04

that is the intent to destroy in whole

6:06

or in part a national, ethical,

6:09

racial or religious group and

6:11

a physical element which includes a

6:13

number of acts like killing, causing

6:16

serious harm, imposing measures intended

6:18

to prevent births and forcibly

6:21

transferring children. Okay so

6:23

I've read all that out that's from the UN site.

6:26

I say them and I quote directly because

6:28

we have to be very careful when talking

6:30

about genocide. It is a phrase that is

6:32

banded around far too much and if

6:35

we're to be taken seriously journalists and and

6:37

informed citizens we've got to be we've got

6:40

to be correct. So if

6:42

we are incorrect and just rage

6:44

and throw this term around it

6:46

muddies the waters of the issue and

6:49

only works to Putin's favor. So

6:51

I hope you don't think I'm trying to

6:53

patronize you here but we have to arm

6:55

ourselves with a fact in order to dismantle

6:57

all the disinformation that comes the other way.

7:00

So for my money I'm

7:02

reasonably content that the UN

7:05

saying cultural destruction alone, my

7:07

word alone but cultural destruction alone does

7:09

not suffice to say it's a genocide

7:13

but I think the manner in which Russia is

7:15

trying to destroy Ukrainian culture is

7:19

killing and causing serious bodily

7:21

and mental harm. Plus don't

7:23

forget we know Russia is forcibly

7:25

transferring children. So

7:28

that to me does look like an attempted

7:30

genocide. However that's my two pennies. Go and

7:32

have a look at the UN site make

7:34

your own mind up but we've just got

7:36

to be absolutely careful and correct on the

7:38

language that we use so that we are

7:40

so that our arguments stand up. Anyway

7:43

back to the updates more military

7:45

activities outside Ukraine. Lieutenant General

7:47

Vadim Shemarin who's the deputy

7:49

chief of the Russian armed

7:51

forces so Gerasimov's deputy basically

7:53

he is or was also

7:55

head of the main director

7:57

of communications. He's been

7:59

detained. for allegedly receiving bribes.

8:01

This comes from Russia's state-owned

8:04

news agency, RIA Novosti, speaking

8:06

yesterday. Now, another state-controlled

8:08

outlet, Comasant, said that General Shmarin

8:10

had been put under arrest for

8:13

a period of two months. He's

8:16

the fourth arrest of high-ranking

8:18

defense figure in the space of a month. You'll

8:20

remember back in April, now former

8:23

Deputy Defense Minister Timor Ivanov was

8:25

detained on suspicion of bribery. Then

8:27

there was Lieutenant General Yurikoznetsov, the

8:29

head of the personnel department for

8:32

the Russian MOD. He was

8:34

detained on May the 13th. And then just earlier

8:36

this week, Major General Ivan

8:38

Popov, the former commander of

8:40

Russia's 58th Combined Arms Army, which was

8:43

fighting in Ukraine, he was arrested on suspicion

8:45

of fraud. So what's going on

8:47

here? Is this some kind of pooch?

8:49

Is this Putin clearing out, feeling more

8:51

emboldened after the, you know, quote, unquote,

8:53

election? We don't know, but there's big

8:55

changes at the top and of course, Shoryu's gone as well. Next

8:58

one. The UK-administered International Fund

9:01

for Ukraine has announced another

9:03

£150 million

9:05

worth of support. That's going to

9:07

be about £70 million on air

9:10

defense radars, counter drone

9:12

and counter electronic warfare kit, and

9:14

then £80 million on stuff

9:16

for the big blue wobbly stuff,

9:18

maritime capabilities. It's going to be

9:20

small boats, reconnaissance drones,

9:23

loitering munitions and underwater

9:26

mine clearance drones as well. So lots

9:28

of droney stuff there. The

9:30

IFU, that's the International Fund for Ukraine, so

9:33

far received more than £900 million. The

9:35

UK has put in £500 million of

9:38

that. This is an ad hoc

9:40

alliance. Alliance is probably too strong a word.

9:42

An ad hoc grouping made up

9:44

of, well, so the bolts and

9:46

the scandies have got stuck in

9:48

straight away. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland,

9:51

Sweden and Norway, then the

9:53

Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Iceland and the

9:55

UK. So the kind of, a bit

9:57

Jeff-like, the Joint Expeditionary Force, a little

9:59

bit in not exactly but the kind

10:02

of North European

10:04

beer drinking nations of NATO getting involved

10:06

there. Sticking with Sweden,

10:08

Sweden has announced a long-term military support

10:10

package for Ukraine worth 75 billion Swedish

10:13

krona, that's about 7 big

10:15

B billion US dollars, over three

10:17

years. That's going on

10:19

defense equipment, financial support in cash

10:22

terms and financial support

10:24

for defense procurement. Going to

10:26

be spread evenly over three years so I

10:28

was doing a couple of calculations. GDP

10:30

of about 600 billion dollars

10:32

a year Sweden, so this equates

10:35

to this three-year thing, equates

10:37

to about 0.37% of GDP per year for three years.

10:43

Now you'll remember Estonia

10:45

at the end of last year, Estonia put

10:48

out this plan that NATO countries should commit

10:50

0.25%, a quarter of 1% of GDP

10:55

to Ukraine every

10:57

year for four years. That would give them a steady

11:00

flow of money upon which they can plan to build

11:02

up the defense industrial base. So Sweden coming up with

11:05

0.37 for three years is pretty much in the ballpark

11:09

there, so nice one Sweden

11:11

just need to look to others

11:13

to try and do the same. Now

11:15

from Sweden head a little west you get to

11:18

Norway, lovely crinkly edges. Officials

11:20

there said yesterday that Russian

11:22

intelligence services intend to

11:24

increase sabotage activities and other

11:26

hybrid operations against NATO member

11:28

countries. Now hybrid itself what are we talking

11:31

about here? No specific

11:33

agreed definition but hybrid operations are

11:35

seen as they suggest a mix

11:37

of different types of aggressive behavior

11:39

generally taken to be short of

11:42

war. So includes disinformation

11:44

but also probably includes things

11:46

like the Novichok nerve agent

11:48

attack in the UK in

11:50

2018 which did kill people to

11:52

kill a person. So hybrid doesn't

11:54

always mean non-lethal but that's

11:56

what the term you'll see the term used in that in that

11:58

way. Anyway, now the

12:00

Stikman Norway Institute for the Study of

12:02

War, the US-based think tank, they

12:05

say that Norway's police security

12:07

service and the Norwegian

12:09

intelligence service, speaking yesterday, said that

12:11

there's an increased threat of Russian

12:14

sabotage against Norwegian armed suppliers and

12:16

other organizations involved in the logistics side

12:19

of the delivery of military aid

12:21

to Ukraine. The PST counterintelligence

12:23

head Inga Haugland warned Norwegian armed

12:25

suppliers to be on high alert

12:28

and has previously said Russian actors

12:31

are planning acts of sabotage in Western

12:33

Norway, where there are a lot

12:35

of military naval bases and oil and gas

12:38

infrastructure. Haugland said

12:40

Russian security services have used non-Russian

12:42

nationals to conduct sabotage in Poland,

12:44

Germany and the UK in order

12:46

to have deniability. We've seen that

12:48

in the UK. There's some

12:50

British people currently charged

12:53

with acts which are thought to have been supporting

12:57

off if not paid by Russia. Now

13:00

Francis, I think, covered on yesterday's episode

13:02

comments from Donald Tusk, the Polish prime

13:04

minister, when he was warning

13:06

earlier this week that Polish authorities have

13:09

recently arrested and charged nine suspects for

13:11

engaging in acts of sabotage in

13:13

Poland on behalf of Russian security

13:15

services. So there's quite a lot of

13:17

this going on, if not all

13:19

being reported around the same time. And

13:22

sticking with Norway and the Kremlin has

13:24

said that it will retaliate after Norway

13:26

at the time has decided

13:28

to further restrict entry to Russian

13:30

tourists, effectively banning them. The

13:33

Kremlin says this is discriminatory, which

13:35

it is. I've no problem with that. So

13:37

they say, who's this, sorry, Emily

13:40

Enga-Mael, this is Norway's justice minister

13:42

in a statement this morning, said,

13:44

the decision to tighten the entry

13:46

rules is in line with the

13:48

Norwegian approach of standing by allies

13:50

and partners in reaction to Russia's

13:52

illegal war of aggression against Ukraine.

13:54

So Russian citizens, whose purpose

13:57

is tourism and other non-essential travel,

13:59

will... be rejected upon entry across

14:01

the external order, they say. Exemptions,

14:04

exceptions will be granted or may

14:07

be granted, sorry, in cases such

14:09

as visits to close relatives, close

14:12

family residing in Norway, that the ministry

14:14

said, justice ministry. Of course,

14:16

the Kremlin then had a normal one. Dmitry

14:18

Peskov this morning said, of course,

14:20

such decisions cannot go unanswered. Of course, the

14:23

decision is purely discriminatory. We do

14:25

not accept such decisions. Not

14:27

for you to accept it or not, it's happening. Sorry,

14:30

he said, we regret that the Norwegian

14:32

leadership has chosen this way of worsening

14:34

our bilateral relations, which have already been

14:36

of poor quality recently and not on

14:38

our initiative. Yeah, nice one, Dmitry. There's

14:41

some interesting moves on the political front for

14:43

which we need the F-bomb to talk us

14:45

through. So Francis, what's been happening on the

14:47

diplomatic front? Well, thanks, Tom.

14:50

Well, the biggest news is a major

14:52

development in the United States today, as

14:54

listens to recent episodes will know

14:56

the key cause of frustration in Ukraine

14:59

at the moment is the restrictions imposed

15:01

on the use of Western provided weapons

15:04

on Russian territory. What that

15:06

means in reality is

15:08

Ukrainian troops have to watch Russian

15:11

forces mathing just across the border,

15:13

which they cannot attack with those

15:15

weapons. They have to wait for

15:18

them to march across that invisible

15:20

line to then launch assaults on

15:22

Kharkiv and elsewhere. In a military

15:24

sense, those restrictions are,

15:27

of course, illogical and hugely

15:29

limiting to the Ukrainian ability

15:31

to wage war. Britain

15:34

and Latvia were the first to give

15:36

the green light to Kharkiv to use

15:39

the weapons they provide on Russian territory,

15:41

something that really rattled Moscow as we

15:43

reported. But we learned today from the

15:46

New York Times, citing undisclosed official sources

15:48

that the U.S. Secretary of State Anthony

15:50

Blinken is reportedly backing

15:53

a plan to allow U.S. missiles donated to

15:56

Ukraine to be fired into Russia.

15:58

Of course, Blinken has just got got back

16:00

from Kiev, and I imagine that

16:02

was one of President Zelensky's major

16:05

requests, if not the major request.

16:07

Incredibly, as long-standing listeners will appreciate,

16:10

Mike Johnson, the Republican Speaker of

16:12

the House of Representatives, appears to

16:14

back the idea as well. Responding

16:17

to a question last night from Voice

16:19

of America, Johnson said the US should

16:21

allow Ukraine to prosecute the war in

16:23

the way they see fit. Ukraine needs

16:26

to be able to fight back, and

16:28

I think us trying to micromanage the

16:30

effort there is not a good

16:32

policy for us, he added. One

16:36

can only assume that he and Blinken

16:38

are seeing the same intelligence reports

16:40

and thereby reaching similar

16:42

conclusions. Make no mistake,

16:44

as listeners will appreciate, this is a

16:46

really significant shift and would be yet

16:48

a further sign of

16:51

what was once deemed politically

16:53

impossible, now becoming the

16:56

only logical course of action.

16:59

We will be watching this very closely, as

17:02

if Blinken does back the move,

17:04

as it sounds like he does, it seems

17:06

to be only a matter of time before

17:09

Ukraine is permitted to strike

17:12

forces mobilising on the

17:14

front. That will be significant

17:16

on that axis. The

17:19

shift may be evidence of pressure

17:21

being placed on Washington by London,

17:24

but if so, they are not on the same page on

17:26

every subject, especially China. Indeed, the

17:28

US has openly questioned the claim

17:30

by the UK that Russia and

17:32

China are working together on combat

17:35

equipment to be used in Ukraine.

17:37

Grant Shapps, the defence secretary who we

17:40

interviewed on the podcast last week, was

17:42

speaking at a defence conference here in

17:44

London yesterday and said that

17:46

the two countries were collaborating, his words,

17:48

on lethal aid for Moscow to use

17:51

in its war against Kiev. He said,

17:53

and I quote, an axis of authoritarian

17:55

states led by Russia, China, Iran and

17:57

North Korea have escalated and fuelled conflicts

17:59

and... They have

18:01

increasingly been working together and today

18:04

I can reveal that we have

18:06

evidence that Russia and China are

18:08

collaborating on combat equipment for use

18:11

in Ukraine. Lifa Ali is now

18:13

or will be flowing from China

18:15

to Russia and into Ukraine.

18:19

Now what's interesting is that this

18:21

claim was quickly disputed by Jake

18:23

Sullivan, Joe Biden's National Security Advisor,

18:25

asked specifically about Shapps's speech at

18:28

the Daily White House Press Briefing.

18:30

Mr Sullivan replied as follows, we

18:32

have not seen that to date. I

18:35

look forward to speaking with the UK

18:37

to make sure that we have a

18:39

common operating picture. Well,

18:41

Mr Sullivan, we reported well over a

18:43

year ago that there was evidence provided

18:46

by various other newspapers that China was

18:48

indeed providing some basic weaponry at

18:50

that time to Russia further

18:52

to the all-vital political cover.

18:55

So it's just a little bit concerning if this

18:57

is news to the US National Security Advisor, perhaps

18:59

you should listen to Ukraine the latest. The

19:02

other major story I want to cover today before

19:04

I have to dash back to the newsroom to

19:07

do some work actually on it is

19:09

the surprise calling of a general

19:11

election by our Conservative Prime Minister

19:13

Rishi Sunak yesterday. Now I'll

19:16

spare listeners the shambles of how

19:18

it was announced which involved Sunak

19:20

standing outside Downing Street without an

19:22

umbrella getting absolutely drenched as somebody

19:24

blasted out Labour's 1997 campaign anthem.

19:28

He should have known the only person who

19:31

could pull off a speech in the rain

19:33

is President Jeb Bartlett assisted by Dire Straits.

19:36

That's off to those who get the reference. The

19:38

election will be in six weeks time

19:41

on Thursday the 4th of July. An

19:44

election Sunak is widely expected to

19:46

lose to his Labour rival Keir

19:48

Starmer who has nonetheless backed the

19:50

continued support of Ukraine, at

19:53

least at the current levels being provided by

19:55

the British government. But he

19:57

made, that is Keir Starmer, no reference to

19:59

Ukraine. his campaign launch speech yesterday

20:01

after the Prime Minister's, whereas Sunak did

20:03

several times in his. And I will

20:05

quote the relevant parts of the Prime

20:08

Minister's speech now, because I think they're

20:10

just worth emphasising. In the

20:12

last five years, our country has fought through

20:14

the most challenging times since the Second World

20:16

War. As I stand here

20:18

as your Prime Minister, I can't help but

20:21

reflect that my first proper introduction to you was

20:23

just over four years ago. I told

20:25

you that we faced a generation-defining moment.

20:28

We were hit by a pandemic that upended

20:30

normal life. Then, just as we

20:32

were recovering from Covid, war returned

20:34

to Europe, with Putin's invasion of

20:37

Ukraine sending your energy bill spiralling.

20:40

Earlier today, I spoke with His Majesty the King

20:42

to request the dissolution of Parliament. The

20:44

King has granted this request, and we will have a

20:47

general election on the 4th of July. This

20:49

election will take place at a time when

20:52

the world is more dangerous than it

20:54

has been since the end of the Cold War.

20:57

Putin's Russia is waging a brutal

20:59

war in Ukraine and will not

21:01

stop there if he succeeds. That

21:04

war has also made it all too clear

21:06

the risk to our energy security. In

21:09

the Middle East, the forces of Islamist

21:11

extremism threaten regional and ultimately global stability.

21:14

These tensions are exploited by extremists who

21:16

seek to undermine our values and divide

21:19

our society here at home. China

21:21

is looking to dominate the 21st

21:23

century by stealing a lead in

21:25

technology, and migration is being weaponised

21:27

by hostile states to threaten the

21:29

integrity of our borders. These

21:32

uncertain times call for a

21:34

clear plan and bold action

21:36

to chart a course to

21:39

a secure future. You

21:41

must choose in this election who has that

21:43

plan, who is prepared to take the bold

21:45

action necessary to secure a better future for

21:47

our country and our children.

22:00

So it is highly relevant to the

22:02

Ukraine situation for obvious reasons. As

22:05

we saw only in the past week or so, Britain is

22:07

still a key player in this conflict,

22:09

not least in the Bipramatic back channels. And

22:12

I'm pretty convinced that London has been pushing

22:14

very hard for Washington to give the green

22:16

light to those weapons uses. So

22:18

the British perspective on this does still very much

22:20

matter. So rest assured, we

22:23

will be keeping listeners informed of

22:25

the campaign. And it's going

22:27

to be a long six weeks. Yeah,

22:30

it feels like it already, Francis. But thanks for that.

22:32

I note this pressure, the

22:35

pressure building over this possible

22:37

change of policies. I

22:39

think it's very interesting. It's perhaps just

22:41

as important as which weapons are being

22:43

sent to Ukraine is which policies

22:45

are being sent to Ukraine. You know, that's not

22:48

a bit too mangled. I just

22:50

wonder if this issue, the policy over

22:52

whether Western weapons can be used inside

22:54

Russia, fired inside Russia. I wonder if

22:57

this is the stalking horse for other

22:59

policy positions that may be a bit

23:01

sort of nose-holdy at the moment, maybe

23:04

a bit too strong, but are doing

23:06

the rounds about out there in the

23:08

discussion for things like Western medics operating

23:11

near Ukraine in NATO territory,

23:13

but under a NATO air defense umbrella,

23:15

for example, or NATO training

23:18

staff in the west of

23:20

the country. And perhaps even

23:22

whisper it quietly, German technicians

23:24

showing Ukrainians how to operate

23:26

Taurus, because apparently that's

23:28

so complicated. It's simply not possible to

23:30

teach Ukrainians how to fire Taurus outside

23:32

of Ukraine, not like those

23:34

easy peasy F-16s that you can train

23:36

anywhere. Anyway, I think it's very interesting

23:38

that the policy landscape might be shifting.

23:40

I think perhaps sniffing this in the

23:43

political wind. Sorry about that. President

23:45

Zelensky, I see, is reportedly

23:47

planning on attending next month's D-Day

23:50

commemoration in France and the G7 in

23:52

Italy. He's reported, Politico say

23:54

he might be specifically calling on NATO

23:57

to start shooting down Russian missiles over

23:59

the next month. Ukraine, I guess using

24:01

the argument about the sort of some

24:03

members of the alliance did over for

24:05

Israel recently. That was Politico talking

24:07

to two people familiar with the plans for

24:09

those meetings, although it could all change. But

24:11

now, as you say, for instance, really very

24:14

interesting stuff, movement on the political side,

24:16

arguably just as important right now, if

24:18

not more important right now than the

24:20

natural military aid. But I'm now

24:22

glad to turn to our guest, Lev

24:24

Sunwood. Lev, great to have you. Please,

24:26

can I ask you to introduce

24:29

yourself. I'd only get it all wrong.

24:31

But tell us how you went from

24:33

reciting your service number backwards on top

24:35

of the train-asium to being an international

24:37

film star, explorer, pin-up for swooning journalists

24:39

everywhere, although that might only be the

24:41

telegraph. Thank you

24:43

very much, Dominic. It's a very kind

24:46

introduction. Well, I joined the army back

24:48

in 5-7 the parachute regiment,

24:50

and I suppose having left and seen

24:52

a bit in the world, I sort

24:54

of returned to my former

24:56

passion, which was photography and writing. And

24:58

so I spent the last 15 years

25:00

or so, hopefully in the world, making

25:02

documentaries on important affairs that are happening,

25:04

including Ukraine. I've spent quite a bit

25:06

of time there over the last 18

25:09

months myself, and most recently in November,

25:12

and seeing some of the harrowing things

25:14

that are happening on the different fronts.

25:16

But on top of that, I sort

25:18

of got a keen interest in raising

25:20

awareness about particularly issues surrounding education. I'm

25:22

an ambassador for UNICEF, and I've done

25:25

a lot of work all across Africa,

25:27

South America, and of course Central

25:29

Asia. And my most recent book was all

25:31

about Operation Pitting and the fall of Afghanistan.

25:33

So it's a mixed bag, but I try

25:35

and use different mediums to tell

25:38

important stories. I mean,

25:40

you're very interested, very active in veterans affairs,

25:42

which is one of the reasons I wanted

25:44

to have a chat today. Veterans affairs

25:46

more broadly, but obviously, specifically through the lens

25:48

of Ukraine, as you say, you spent many

25:51

months there. Your latest project, The

25:53

Burn, I'll talk about the specifics in

25:55

a bit, but The Burn is a

25:57

search for or charting the journey. of

26:00

soldiers redemption, which I think is an interesting

26:02

prospect. Can you explain for us why

26:05

there is the need for soldiers to seek redemption?

26:07

What are they seeking it from? Who

26:09

can bestow such redemption? And is

26:11

this a personal thing, an individual,

26:13

a solitary activity or something that

26:16

can only happen with

26:18

the support and encouragement of society,

26:20

friends, family and wider society? Well,

26:23

I think it's a universal story actually.

26:25

I think it's been the journey

26:28

of the veteran or anyone that's served in

26:31

the military and seen conflict comes back from

26:33

that. I think it's a story as old

26:35

as Homer's Odyssey, frankly. And that's

26:38

the ethos of my latest project is

26:40

to talk about

26:42

what emotional mental

26:44

processes that veterans must go

26:46

through to seek that humanity.

26:50

Some people deal with it perfectly fine. Others

26:53

struggle. And that's, you know, we've seen over

26:55

the last 15, 20

26:57

years with the various conflicts across the

26:59

Middle East and Afghanistan, that veterans mental

27:01

health is thankfully becoming less of a

27:04

stigma. I think mental health issues in

27:06

general are becoming less of a stigma

27:09

and more attention is given to that.

27:11

But you know, as we know, suicide

27:13

rates are tragically high, particularly among young

27:15

men. But, you know, I was in a meeting

27:18

with a UK charity combat stress who

27:20

told me to my surprise that often

27:23

it's I think the average time that

27:25

it takes for veterans to report

27:27

that they have PTSD,

27:29

whether that's related to a specific

27:31

incident, or if it's the cumulative effect

27:34

of a number of factors is

27:36

on average, sort of between 12 to 14 years

27:38

after having left

27:40

the forces. So it's a problem that

27:43

doesn't go away. And often people do

27:45

need to seek help at

27:47

various levels. And so this project really is

27:50

hopefully going to raise awareness about that. And

27:52

often things like PTSD and a lot of

27:54

my friends, you know, have suddenly suffered

27:56

with various mental health issues as

27:59

a result of their service and quite

28:01

often it's not the result of

28:03

an explosion or an idea, it's

28:06

simply what happens sometimes when you've

28:08

seen very intense things, you've experienced

28:10

abnormal things happening around you, you've

28:13

seen the very best and

28:15

the very worst of life but then you're

28:17

thrown out into the civilian world, you might

28:19

go and get a job as a company

28:21

or a bank and then suddenly the sheen

28:24

of life is taken away somewhat and I

28:26

think there are many soldiers and sailors go

28:28

through. So this really story of redemption is

28:30

both, it's a personal thing but it's also

28:32

part of the collective responsibility of society. If

28:35

we're going to send soldiers off to war

28:37

then I think we all need to do

28:39

what we can to support them

28:41

in the aftermath and we talk a lot

28:43

about the military covenant but it's very

28:45

important. It's also the soldiers' responsibility, people's

28:48

responsibility as well and I've seen that

28:50

I'm an ambassador for a number of

28:52

veterans, charities, all of whom do amazing

28:54

work but I think what's telling is that

28:56

the most effective results are the ones that

28:59

encourage personal responsibility. It's for people to go

29:01

out there and accept that perhaps

29:03

something's not quite right and they need to go

29:05

out and seek help themselves and that's what I

29:07

encourage people to do, just sit at home feeling

29:09

sorry for yourself, go out there and

29:11

recognise that this is not something that we shouldn't talk about, it's not

29:13

something you need to keep for yourself, go out there, ask for

29:15

some help and it's there. And this story

29:17

I'm basically making a movie about

29:19

a soldier that has come back from

29:21

the war in Afghanistan and

29:24

is struggling with in his relationship with his

29:26

wife, a bit like a deuces and Penelope

29:28

in The Odyssey and basically

29:30

in a sort of final bid to salvage the

29:33

relationship, his wife takes him to a music festival

29:35

which is a sort of a bit of a

29:37

juxtaposition to the sort of idea of conflict, it's

29:39

all about peace and love and all the rest

29:41

of it and it's really, The Odyssey all happens

29:44

in the space of 24 hours

29:46

and I think that's the interesting bit. We

29:48

all have our personal Odyssey and sometimes it

29:50

takes 14 years, sometimes it can happen in

29:53

a much shorter time frame. So that's kind of

29:55

what I'm trying to do is bring all these

29:58

ideas together to raise awareness about these things. very

30:00

important issues and hopefully offer people a bit

30:02

of a beacon of hope and encourage people

30:04

to realise that they're not alone in dealing

30:06

with this. Now, you've spent,

30:08

as we've said, quite a bit of

30:11

time in Ukraine. How do you think

30:13

these ideas will land there and do

30:15

you think Ukraine's society will

30:17

need to go through a similar sort of

30:19

process? I hate to use the word

30:21

journey but a lot of these things are... I

30:24

mean, I don't particularly like the term post-traumatic stress

30:26

disorder. There is a place for that, of course,

30:28

but I think a lot of what

30:31

I've seen in friends of ours who

30:33

have suffered and still struggle with many of these

30:36

issues, it was actually a

30:38

post-traumatic stress event, so post

30:41

that, hence the PTS, but

30:43

it was an understandable

30:45

response, a logical... It was what

30:49

the body does to survive, so it wasn't a

30:51

disorder. It was perfectly natural. Now, how

30:53

that might have manifested itself might have been odd

30:57

and strange for a peaceful

30:59

society, but shouting

31:01

and maybe even occasionally doing

31:04

other things, that is not necessarily a disorder.

31:06

I don't like the framing that there's something

31:09

wrong. It might be correct. So that's just

31:11

my particular bugbear and I'm treading very carefully

31:13

because I'm not qualified in this and I

31:15

don't want to just say I am. I

31:17

think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think

31:20

there's different manifestations of this and there's a

31:22

great book by a guy called Ben Timberlake

31:24

who talks about this a lot. The book

31:26

is called High Risk and he was in

31:28

the military and then served as a security

31:31

consultant in lots of different conflict

31:33

zones. But he talks about post-traumatic

31:36

growth as well. It can work both ways.

31:38

We all know that without a bit of

31:40

risk, there's no reward and we need to

31:42

push ourselves to develop new tendencies and to

31:44

expand our way of looking at life. So

31:46

I don't think it always needs to be

31:49

negative and I think that's something hopefully that

31:51

in itself offers a bit of a glimmer

31:53

of light to people out there that actually

31:55

just because you've been through a rough situation

31:57

and a rough patch as a result, that's

31:59

not it. you don't need to define yourself

32:02

by the negative aspect of that. And I

32:04

think that there's a lot of work that's

32:06

going into this study through things like psychedelics

32:08

and so on that's really trying to understand

32:10

how the mind works when it comes to

32:12

life after a traumatic event. And I think

32:15

that hopefully, we are going in

32:17

the right direction with this, but I think

32:19

the first step really is to encourage people

32:21

to understand that they're not alone in this,

32:23

they're not isolated and to enable people to

32:25

come together. And I think that's whether it's

32:27

in the UK or the States or in

32:29

Ukraine. I mean, Ukraine, as we know, has

32:31

seen some of the bloodiest combat in generations,

32:33

frankly. And there's going to be a whole

32:35

generation of young men and women who will

32:37

struggle in the aftermath. So I think it's

32:40

something that we need to be aware of.

32:42

It's something that the country will need to

32:44

address sooner rather than later. And

32:47

I know that there are already organizations,

32:49

we've got British organizations that are offering

32:51

mental health advice and practical advice as

32:53

well to soldiers coming off the front

32:56

line. I mean, it's interesting, the last

32:58

time I was there, you've got, you

33:00

know, units who are coming back from fighting in

33:02

the Donbas, you know, going to Kiev for the

33:05

sort of weekend and going out clubbing and then

33:07

going straight back to the front line. So it's

33:09

very unusual, very unlike our sort of operational tours

33:11

that we're kind of used to. But

33:14

for in Ukraine, when you're fighting an existential threat,

33:16

when you're fighting total war, which it really is,

33:18

for Ukraine, you have to deal with it in

33:21

a very different way. And

33:23

I think that sense of community, that sort of

33:25

that real sense of tribe, I mean, I don't

33:27

know if you've read Sebastian Junger's book, Tribe, he

33:30

talks a lot about the cohesiveness of

33:34

military units. And in

33:36

fact, actually, the ones that struggle the

33:38

least are the ones often on the

33:40

very front line, those with a very

33:43

solid identity, often the Parrots, the Marines,

33:45

the like, are people who

33:47

struggle the least, which is really interesting, not

33:49

because they're harder, but because they've got a

33:52

really solid sense of brand identity almost, which

33:54

helps them to deal with some of these

33:56

problems collectively. Yeah, it's a subject

33:58

I'm particularly interested in. Keep a very

34:00

close eye on with our friends and colleagues in

34:02

Ukraine and if you're in the US I couldn't

34:05

recommend more highly the bold request foundation. We've been

34:07

to them a number of times i visited them

34:09

when we were in the US last year they

34:11

got a site that first i actually was in

34:13

virginia they got a site also in arizona. It's

34:16

better than the expected out of veterans is the first

34:18

responders as well now came out of nine eleven set

34:20

up by guy who is a firefighter. Present

34:22

on nine eleven so it's more from the

34:25

veteran community and sort of wider

34:27

first responders but you know really interesting stuff if

34:29

anybody. What's up with a look at

34:31

that and perhaps you know i'll send questions

34:34

they are good bunch guys a bold request foundation.

34:37

I finally live the burn i wanna

34:39

hear about the burn this latest project

34:41

your film because it sounds really interesting

34:43

because many issues i think that we've

34:45

just been discussing you're specifically asking for

34:47

help from the veterans community you're

34:50

looking after you looking for technical

34:52

people and i understand any veterans

34:54

out there who are with dashing

34:56

good looks and a winning smile

34:58

on my right lines. What's

35:01

the latest i made this is a

35:03

lot of a wider project i'm sort

35:05

of i've been made. What documentaries now

35:07

this is my first foreign to drama

35:09

fiction filmmaking but it's a great opportunity

35:11

actually i'm using this platform to offer

35:13

some employment opportunities to veterans in the

35:15

form of the you know if you're

35:17

leaving the services and looking for a

35:20

job with a technical advisor or even

35:22

an actor i'm helping young budding script

35:24

writers as well. You know all of

35:27

this creative industries i'm trying to create

35:29

a real opportunity and a platform for

35:31

employment spot but this project specifically you are

35:33

looking for investors and looking for people that

35:36

want to get stuck in and help those

35:38

veterans as well. If anyone wants to help

35:40

me make a movie i'm all ears and

35:42

please do get in touch with the kickstarter

35:45

page out there as well so there's some

35:47

really cool rewards for people who want to

35:49

come on board. What i

35:51

keep an eye out for anyone who fits the bill

35:54

there but thanks so much come back to you in

35:56

a moment if you if you got time to stick

35:58

around for final thoughts i have one actually. just

36:00

before, I know it's not always that normal for the host

36:02

to do anything, but I just wanted to say the last

36:04

couple of days I was away, I was

36:06

down in Bordeaux with one of our

36:08

videographers here, Jack Leather, brilliant bloke, the Leatherman,

36:11

and we were doing something for D-Day, it's going to be coming out in a couple

36:13

of weeks time, and what I was looking

36:15

at was an operation launched by the SAS,

36:18

B-Squadron of the first SAS, there was more

36:20

than one SAS originally at the time, so

36:22

B-Squadron of the first SAS down in Western

36:24

France, and kind of

36:26

a pretty long and tragic story

36:28

short, it resulted in 30 SAS

36:30

men being taken captive by

36:36

the Germans, and then what, and then all

36:38

murdered, shot, but 27 of them shot in

36:41

shallow graves, three

36:44

of them, I mean horrifically, they

36:46

were wounded in the action when their

36:48

forest hideout was attacked, three

36:50

of them were taken to hospital in Poitiers, and

36:52

they were treated, and then they were murdered by

36:54

lethal injection by a doctor, a German doctor, I

36:56

mean it's awful, but I'm

36:59

using it to explain that the

37:01

D-Day operation was more, was

37:04

much wider than what was just happening on the

37:06

beaches and in Normandy, and

37:08

I'm looking for, trying to show a different

37:10

aspect that people might have heard about before, so have

37:12

a look at Operation Bull Basket, but

37:14

the reason I mention it is because I went, I spoke to

37:16

people in the, rather beautifully, at the

37:18

end of the war, and what we understand

37:20

today is the Commonwealth War Graves Commission went

37:23

all the local villages where soldiers have been

37:25

buried and said, look, you know, let's put

37:27

them all together into these bigger sites that

37:29

we recognize today, because that way we

37:31

can look after them better, it's not an ownership thing, it's

37:33

just, you know, we can administer them and look after those

37:35

that have fallen, and a very small

37:37

number of French villages, including Hrom, where I went

37:39

to visit, said, no, said, no,

37:42

these men died for us, they

37:44

died for our town, our village, they died

37:46

fighting for us, so it was our

37:48

responsibility, we're going to look after them, we are going to

37:50

remember them, we are going to attend their graves, we are

37:52

going to make sure that nobody forgets what they did, and

37:55

that's what's happened, and it's absolutely beautiful, and

37:57

so in this lovely little tiny,

38:00

French village, there are 27 graves

38:04

and a stone marking the other three men that

38:06

were killed in the hospital. Their bodies are not

38:08

known where they lie. And there's

38:10

also a US Army Air Force pilot, Lieutenant Lincoln

38:12

Bundy, who was a Mustang pilot. He

38:15

was shot down and was working his way through the area

38:17

to try and get down to Spain and out through the

38:19

escape line. He was with the SES men when they were

38:21

all attacked, so he was shot as well. So

38:23

there's this beautiful area

38:26

of the town cemetery. And

38:29

then just to the north, about 5 k's north,

38:31

is the Buadriguaron, the Guiron wood. And

38:33

that's where the shallow graves are. And they've been marked

38:35

as well. And I was stood there in this lovely

38:38

wood, the sunny day, and yet

38:40

it was so strange, it just felt

38:42

so odd to be stood in a

38:45

place where eight years ago, you

38:48

know, such violence and

38:50

such an egregious human humanity

38:52

or lack of humanity, egregious

38:55

human behavior took place.

38:57

It was very strange, rather

39:00

chilling indeed. I just hope we

39:02

did it justice. I think it's good. We're

39:04

still working on it. That's going to be out

39:06

in a couple of weeks. But just to be

39:08

in these spaces, and we've seen it in Ukraine

39:10

as well, you know, when we visited Bucher and

39:12

people who live there now and elsewhere, and we're

39:14

seeing it in Vovcansk, we will see it elsewhere

39:16

in territory once it's liberated.

39:19

I mean, it is extraordinary to be

39:22

in a place, not

39:24

the time, but the same place where such

39:27

acts have taken place and such

39:29

crimes committed. It really

39:31

does make you think about your

39:34

humanity and who you are and

39:36

what you can do to try and

39:39

make this a slightly better place.

39:41

Yeah, it was very touching, actually, very affecting. I

39:43

ask everyone to have a little think about it, if

39:45

you've got time, and if you say we have a

39:47

look at the film in a couple of weeks, but

39:49

it was very affecting. And I

39:51

then went back with Jack to the city

39:54

of Bordeaux, which is very nice. And we

39:56

managed to find the only bistro in

39:58

Bordeaux that didn't serve French wines. only

40:00

served Italian wine. Yeah,

40:03

gonna make it up. Anyway, Lev, any

40:06

final thoughts you'd like to share with the game?

40:09

If I can share one story about Ukraine,

40:11

I'll keep it brief, but when I was

40:13

there in November, I was actually out there

40:15

in search of trees. I'm writing a book

40:17

about the human connection with nature and all

40:19

that land and wild spaces.

40:21

Ukraine's got some very beautiful forests, and

40:24

I was very surprised to hear that

40:26

there are still wildlife rangers,

40:28

conservationists, forest rangers out there protecting

40:30

Ukraine's forests, even on the front

40:32

line. So I'd gone up to

40:34

Donbass and I'd gone down to

40:37

a place called Kamiansky-Sitch, which is

40:39

just outside of Herzon, in search

40:41

of one particular man who I really

40:43

want to just pay enormous tribute to

40:45

because I found this guy, his name

40:47

is Sodor-guy Skorky, and he set up

40:49

a national park back in 2019, it's

40:53

Ukraine's youngest national park, right on

40:55

the Dniepero River. And

40:57

basically, when the Russians invaded, he was

40:59

captured on the second day of the

41:01

war. He was locked in

41:03

a basement with all of the other rangers,

41:05

with a whole bunch of other men for

41:08

a week where he was tortured, shockingly. And

41:10

then after a week, he was told to

41:12

go outside and dig his own grave. Sodor-guy

41:14

decided a better option would be when

41:17

the Russians were not looking to do

41:19

a runner, swim across the Dniepero River

41:21

at its widest point, and bear in

41:23

mind, end of February, it

41:26

was still half frozen over, and he

41:28

managed to escape, which in itself was

41:30

truly remarkable. But just a week later,

41:32

he'd signed up with Ukrainian old forces

41:34

and was fighting the Russians by day,

41:36

but always going back to the national

41:39

park to check up on his beloved

41:41

trees. Ukraine

41:46

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