1:59

And there's some punchy sound effects once

2:02

Arnie starts throwing people through windows. By

2:09

today's standards, this sound mix is

2:12

actually pretty tame. Nothing

2:14

feels overpowering, and the music is kept

2:16

fairly low. I

2:19

don't find myself thinking about the sound at

2:21

all. I'm just completely lost in the story.

2:24

Come with me if you want to live. But

2:27

lately, it seems like any time I watch a movie

2:29

or a TV show at home, I have to constantly

2:32

ride the volume on my remote control.

2:34

And it's really annoying.

2:38

A sound effect like an explosion will be way

2:41

too loud. So

2:43

I turn it down. Then

2:46

someone says something and I can't understand

2:49

it. So I turn it back up. I'm

2:52

not sure, but I don't want to find out. Then

2:54

the music ramps back up. And

2:57

it's so loud that I'm worried my neighbors are going

2:59

to call the cops, so I turn it back

3:01

down again. This goes

3:03

on and on.

3:07

And I'm not the only one who's noticed this. Our

3:09

listeners have too. It's

3:12

not only movies, but it's also some television

3:15

shows as well. You have to crank the

3:17

volume to understand the dialogue, and

3:19

then when the music comes in, it's

3:21

deafening. And you

3:23

can't really hear what the characters

3:25

are saying because the music is just so loud.

3:27

Okay, I cannot tell you how

3:30

frustrating it is to

3:33

raise the volume on your laptop

3:35

or your television and still

3:38

not be able to hear the dialogue.

3:40

Most of the times I just prefer to watch

3:42

them at home where I have the possibility

3:44

to turn the captions on. And it's

3:47

quite bad because it disconnects you from

3:49

the film.

3:52

Today, more and more people are relying

3:54

on subtitles to understand movies.

3:57

That's 20,000 Hertz producer Ashley Hamer.

3:59

In a 2022 survey, half of

4:02

the respondents said they mostly watch movies

4:04

with the subtitles on. And this

4:06

isn't just older people who might have hearing

4:08

issues. Young people in high

4:10

school and college are actually the most likely

4:13

to watch with subtitles.

4:14

Now even if you're hearing is perfect,

4:16

subtitles can be really useful. Maybe

4:19

there are kids running around the house while a movie is playing.

4:23

Or maybe you're watching something late at night and you

4:25

just don't want to wake people up.

4:32

But in a perfect world, unless you're hard

4:34

of hearing, you shouldn't need subtitles.

4:36

When you're busy reading, it's harder to appreciate

4:39

all the visual details on screen. And

4:41

when you read the punchline of a joke before the

4:43

actor delivers it, that ruins the

4:46

joke. Overall, it just makes the experience

4:48

less immersive.

4:51

Surely Hollywood knows

4:53

about this problem, so why does it keep

4:55

happening? Some theory is that it starts

4:58

at the source, the actors themselves.

5:01

Theory number one, the actor's delivery.

5:04

I think Tom Hardy is probably the prime

5:06

example. That's journalist Ben

5:08

Pearson. He wrote a great article in Flash

5:10

Film about this very topic. A

5:13

through line for a lot of his performances is

5:15

that it's just simply difficult to

5:17

understand what he's saying. Sometimes he's wearing

5:19

a mask. This is costaristic. Victory

5:22

has defeated you. Sometimes

5:25

he's mumbling a lot. Now

5:30

you might think a director would just ask

5:33

an actor to redo a mumbly

5:35

take, but that doesn't always happen.

5:37

Some directors will correct

5:40

an actor repeatedly and

5:42

tell them to do something differently.

5:45

That's Tom Curley, who's an Oscar-winning

5:48

production sound mixer. And

5:50

some directors, either out of

5:52

fear or out of respect, will

5:55

allow the actor to interpret

5:57

the role entirely on their own.

7:59

happy with.

8:01

Theory number three, the decline

8:03

of sound stages. Sound

8:07

stages are big giant warehouses that

8:09

are entirely designed for filming. They're

8:11

sealed off from the outside world, so you can get

8:13

a really clean dialogue recording. Back

8:16

in the day, most movie scenes were

8:18

filmed on sound stages. Even for outdoor

8:21

scenes, they'd use painted backgrounds to make

8:23

it seem like the characters were out in the woods

8:25

or out in the desert. But over the years,

8:28

more and more movies started to be filmed outdoors

8:30

on location. And it turns out, the

8:32

real world is a much more complicated

8:35

place to record in.

8:36

If we're doing something that is

8:38

out on the streets or adjacent

8:41

to real life, then we have to get a lot

8:43

more creative with problem solving

8:45

and deal with a lot more things like air traffic

8:48

and the public and cars

8:50

and trains, anything that makes noise.

8:53

On a film set, there are a few different ways

8:55

to record dialogue. Most of the time,

8:57

there's at least one boom microphone, which

9:00

is the kind that hangs down above the actors' heads.

9:03

And then, for instance, where the

9:05

boom microphones can't be placed in an

9:07

appropriate spot, then we have

9:09

body-worn wireless microphones.

9:12

Of course, these body mics can't be

9:14

visible to the camera, so production

9:16

sound mixers have to get really creative

9:18

with where to place them.

9:19

And if they're not placed in the optimal spot,

9:22

the result is a subpar recording.

9:24

So having a skilled crew that

9:26

knows how to do that in a way

9:28

that also plays nice with the cameras is

9:30

a really valuable asset. And that's something

9:33

that perhaps anybody can do,

9:35

but not everybody can do great, and

9:37

even fewer can do amazingly.

9:42

Theory number four. Sound is undervalued compared

9:44

to visuals.

9:47

It boils down to sound is not respected

9:50

enough on sets. As big-budget

9:53

blockbusters have become more important

9:55

to the movie industry, visuals have sort of taken

9:57

precedence over what we hear. These

10:00

humans were really visually driven

10:02

creatures. So for a lot of people, the

10:04

visual aspects of a film tend to be more

10:06

immediately clear than the audio. Everybody

10:09

on a film set understands visuals.

10:12

Studio executives understand that. They can

10:14

see footage and understand what

10:16

they're looking at. Sound is

10:18

more mysterious to people. It's more intangible.

10:22

People won't have as much of an understanding

10:24

of what is required to have

10:27

intelligible dialogue. You can see

10:29

this play out and who's actually paid to be

10:31

there. On the average film set, you might

10:33

see 50 people entirely focused

10:36

on the visual, but only two or three people

10:38

focused on sound.

10:39

And that means that when there's a choice between a take

10:41

with a good visual and a take with good audio,

10:44

the visual take almost always wins

10:47

out.

10:47

If a production sound mixer goes

10:49

up to the director after a take and says, hey,

10:52

that wasn't quite clean for me. Can we get one more?

10:55

Because the director just simply won't have time to

10:57

accommodate that request. And

10:59

they'll just say like, no, we have to move on. You can

11:01

fix it in post. So they'll basically

11:03

pass the buck to the post production

11:05

team to be able to sort of work

11:07

whatever magic they can to make things intelligible

11:11

on the back end.

11:14

Theory number five, the love of

11:16

loudness.

11:20

Once filming is complete, the next step

11:22

in the chain is post production. Post

11:25

production covers everything that happens after

11:27

filming. That includes cleaning up the dialogue

11:30

and adding sounds like wind, footsteps,

11:32

explosions, and music. And in the

11:34

sound mix, all of these things can compete

11:36

with dialogue.

11:37

Post production sound teams

11:39

often get pressured to push the music

11:41

and sound effects really high in order

11:44

to give a scene more visceral impact and

11:46

emotion. This is especially

11:48

true if the script doesn't do a very

11:50

good job of conveying that emotion. But

11:52

this love of loudness can start to

11:54

cause problems. That's because the filmmakers

11:57

know their scripts inside and out. but

12:00

the audience only gets one shot

12:02

to understand these lines. Editors

12:04

are constantly trying to battle against

12:07

this idea of passive listening, which is

12:09

where they know what the characters are

12:11

saying simply because they've read the script

12:13

and they've been cycling through takes for

12:16

weeks while they're working on the movie. So

12:18

they have sort of been reinforced in a way

12:20

that doesn't quite sound the same to

12:22

fresh ears.

12:27

So to recap, we've got five

12:29

possible theories about why dialogue

12:31

is so hard to understand. One.

12:35

The actress delivery. Two. An

12:38

over-reliance on technology. Three.

12:40

The decline of sound stages. Four.

12:43

Sound is undervalued compared to visuals. And

12:45

five. The little sweet, sweet letters.

12:53

But there's one final theory that we haven't discussed.

12:55

What if the

12:57

dialogue is hard to hear

12:59

on purpose?

13:05

And what does our resident sound designer, Dallas

13:07

Taylor, have to say

13:08

about all of this? This

13:11

topic raises my blood pressure because

13:14

there's some aspects to this that I don't think

13:16

sound people want to say to each other and most

13:19

certainly that sound people don't want to say to their

13:21

clients.

13:22

That's all coming up after

13:24

the break.

13:30

It's a beautiful summer day in

13:32

Paris. You're sitting on a bench on

13:34

the banks of the Seine overlooking the Eiffel

13:37

Tower. Then someone approaches

13:39

you to ask for the time. Excuse

13:40

me,

13:42

you clutch your partially

13:44

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13:46

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let me down.

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Rules and restrictions may apply. Congratulations

14:36

to Jennifer Stepp for correctly guessing last

14:38

episode's mystery sound. You're

14:41

dead, jolly man. That's

14:44

a line from the 1991 movie Hook.

14:47

In this scene, the character Rufio swings

14:49

his sword so close to Robin Williams' face

14:53

that Steven Spielberg opted to film the scene in

14:55

reverse to avoid any accidents. Actor

14:57

Dante Bosco had to learn to say the line

14:59

backwards so that his mouth movements would look

15:02

right when the shot was played forwards. You're

15:05

dead, jolly man. And

15:08

here's this episode's mystery sound.

15:19

If you know that sound, submit your guess at

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the web address mystery.20k.org. Anyone

15:24

who guesses it right will be entered to win a super

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17:00

In recent years, the dialogue

17:02

in movies and TV shows has gotten so

17:05

hard to understand that people of all

17:07

ages have started relying on subtitles.

17:10

This problem can be caused by lots of different

17:12

factors in the filmmaking process. Usually,

17:16

it's unintentional, but not always.

17:21

Theory number six, cutting-edge directories.

17:24

When it comes to dialogue that's hard to understand,

17:27

there's one name that comes up over

17:29

and over. Christopher Nolan. Christopher

17:31

Nolan. Nolan. Christopher Nolan. Christopher

17:34

Nolan. Christopher Nolan. Christopher

17:37

Nolan.

17:39

Yeah, so obviously

17:41

Christopher Nolan movies. There's a scene

17:44

in his movie Interstellar where Michael

17:46

Caine's character is about to pass

17:49

away and it is nearly impossible

17:51

to understand what he's saying.

17:53

There was no need for

17:55

him

17:56

to come back. to

18:00

me that I had the most hard time understanding

18:02

was the Dark Knight Bises from a few years ago.

18:05

I remember there's two specific scenes where Gary

18:07

Oldman is talking so quietly that

18:09

I can't understand him. I

18:11

know this is evil. I

18:13

see how well we try to bury

18:16

it.

18:16

For Tenet, the sound design was so

18:19

loud over the top and in your face

18:21

that the voices were muffled

18:23

and kind of got lost in the sound mix.

18:26

The same sunshine we've met

18:28

in the world formed the faces of

18:30

our descendants' generations to

18:32

help. I mean, it wasn't a particular character

18:34

that was difficult to hear. Everyone was difficult to hear.

18:37

Why don't we better put it in the room before we're

18:39

going to go? And we thought at

18:41

first maybe that was an issue with the

18:43

theater sound system because the

18:46

music was so loud. It was so much

18:48

louder than the dialogue. I

18:50

can't believe

18:52

it! I can't believe it!

18:56

The music, it's all just like...

19:02

But whether you like it or hate it, for Nolan,

19:05

this is a conscious creative

19:07

decision. Yeah,

19:10

filmmakers like Chris for Nolan try to push

19:12

the boundaries of sound design and really

19:14

immerse the audiences in their

19:17

cinematic world that they're creating. Even

19:19

if that means not being able to understand every

19:21

line of dialogue that the characters are saying. Nolan

19:24

does it on purpose. I

19:26

think he's trying to emulate the way

19:28

that natural hearing and natural sound

19:30

in life works. When the Hollywood

19:32

Reporter asked Nolan about the sound of

19:35

Interstellar, he said, quote, There

19:37

are particular moments in this film where I decided

19:39

to use dialogue as a sound effect, so

19:42

sometimes it's mixed slightly underneath the

19:44

other sound effects or in the other sound

19:46

effects to emphasize how loud the

19:48

surrounding noise is. Later, in

19:50

a biography called The Nolan Variations,

19:53

Nolan said, quote, We got a lot

19:55

of complaints. I actually got calls

19:57

from other filmmakers who would say...

19:59

I just saw your film and the dialogue

20:02

is inaudible. Some people thought maybe

20:04

the music's too loud, but the truth was it

20:06

was kind of a whole enchilada

20:07

of how we had chosen to mix it.

20:14

Now just to be clear, I have a ton

20:16

of respect for Christopher Nolan. He's one of the

20:18

only filmmakers right now who's getting huge

20:21

blockbuster budgets to make original films

20:23

with total creative freedom. Some

20:25

people understandably might be put off by some

20:27

of his mixed choices, but his films obviously

20:30

connect with millions of people, including

20:32

me. Since Nolan is doing this intentionally,

20:35

he's a bit of an outlier. When most

20:37

filmmakers make their sound mix enchiladas,

20:40

they usually do

20:40

want the dialogue to be intelligible.

20:43

So

20:43

why does this end up happening in so many

20:45

movies? To find out, I sat down

20:47

with Dallas to get his two cents.

20:50

Alright, this is probably going to be a long

20:52

rant. And it

20:54

was. In fact, it was about two hours long,

20:56

stretched over multiple recording sessions. But

21:06

who do our best to summarize?

21:12

Along with hosting 20,000 Hertz, Dallas also

21:15

runs a sound design and mix studio called

21:17

de facto sound. They mix all

21:19

kinds of things. Films, trailers,

21:21

commercials, documentaries. So

21:23

as someone who works with sound, what do you think

21:26

the problem is? In my opinion, the

21:28

biggest problem is in post audio.

21:30

Alright. It's not a problem with the theatrical

21:33

mixers, though. It is not the problem

21:35

of the sound mixer on set. I don't think it's the sound

21:37

designers. I don't think it's the sound editors. I

21:39

believe it's the fact that many of these films

21:42

never get a proper separate

21:44

pass or mix in a small

21:47

room on small speakers. Right. I

21:49

believe that some might get that, but it's not

21:51

nearly enough and probably not

21:53

as heavy handed as it needs to be. So

21:56

it's the film industry. It's the film

21:58

companies. It's tough because

22:01

it's a really complicated issue that involves

22:03

production companies, the distributors, the

22:05

streaming platforms, the contracts. For

22:08

me, it really boils down to like the home

22:10

listening experience. That experience

22:13

is not being factored into

22:15

the decision making. Right, yeah. The

22:20

economics of films are really almost

22:22

entirely focused on the movie theater.

22:25

That's where they make the most money. So they're

22:27

going to spend all of their time and energy making

22:29

sure that in that movie theater it

22:31

is as big and as

22:34

experiential as humanly possible.

22:36

The optical mixes usually

22:38

have a huge dynamic range,

22:40

meaning that there's a really big difference between

22:43

the quietest

22:44

sounds... I'm a really

22:46

bad people.

22:46

...and the loudest

22:48

sounds.

22:52

A mix like that works well in a movie

22:54

theater because most theaters are really

22:57

large spaces.

22:59

The best compressor out there

23:02

is our air. A compressor

23:04

is something that controls the dynamic

23:06

range of a sound.

23:08

In other words, it evens out the

23:10

volume.

23:10

So when we go into a gigantic

23:13

movie theater, we have a lot of air

23:16

between the speakers and our ears.

23:19

So we have this very natural, beautiful

23:21

compressor that's taking that signal

23:23

and just rounding everything off so smoothly.

23:26

Those speakers are really loud and it's pushing

23:28

through all this air, but that air is causing friction

23:31

and it's making that signal quieter.

23:34

So the louds are brought down and because

23:36

of that, the quiets come

23:39

up naturally and it makes it

23:41

more comfortable.

23:44

And it's not just movie theaters that have this

23:46

lovely natural compression. Some

23:49

stages,

23:49

which are the rooms where movies are usually

23:51

mixed, have it too. So let's

23:53

say they're mixing an epic space scene

23:56

for Interstellar.

27:56

hard

28:00

to convince a movie executive

28:02

that,

28:03

hey, we really need a TV mix on this.

28:05

They're gonna say, I don't care about the TV

28:07

mix. We need to go make $100 million in the theater.

28:11

At the end of the day, solving this issue will

28:13

mean convincing the right people to spend

28:15

just a little more money. I think

28:17

it's eye-opening to look at a film's budget. So 95%

28:19

of it is visuals and actors and

28:23

all of those things. Then 2% or 3% to

28:25

music, and then 2%,

28:27

maybe 3% to post sound.

28:30

So my argument is that

28:32

it's just a fraction of a fraction

28:34

of a fraction of a line item of

28:37

cost

28:37

to have an expert go in and

28:40

remix it in a comfortable level.

28:43

Will that happen?

28:44

I'm not holding my breath.

28:46

If it does happen, I am down

28:48

to do that. That would be my favorite job in the world

28:50

is watching all kinds of movies and limiting

28:53

the dynamic range to a comfortable level

28:55

to where I could even put it at a slightly quiet

28:58

volume and be able to experience the entire

29:00

movie while I have an

29:02

infant across the room sleeping. Wouldn't

29:04

that be nice? Right, so this is really just

29:06

all a job application for you. Oh

29:09

gosh, now that I think about it, I'm

29:11

okay with this. If

29:15

the business people in Hollywood won't prioritize

29:18

these living room mixes, then filmmakers

29:20

might have to start insisting on them because

29:23

streaming isn't going anywhere.

29:25

And as more and more people choose to

29:27

watch movies at home, eventually

29:29

these directors will have to ask themselves

29:32

if they really want to make movies

29:33

that the majority of their audience can't

29:36

fully enjoy. The

29:38

way that I think about a picture

29:41

is that in film, television,

29:43

YouTube, tech talk, those

29:46

are window frames into another world.

29:49

It's like you have a portal into another universe.

29:52

But it is still contained

29:55

to the four barriers that's around it.

29:57

Sound is the thing that comes...

29:59

out.

30:00

It physically moves you, it physically

30:03

vibrates you, it physically surrounds

30:06

you. It's the thing that

30:09

mentally removes those barriers.

30:12

So when you have to turn on

30:14

subtitles to understand it,

30:17

your whole suspension of disbelief

30:19

is deteriorated because now that window

30:22

has words on top of it.

30:23

But when you pay a little bit more attention

30:26

and you give it a little bit more, give it like 1%

30:29

more of what the video

30:31

budget has, amazing things can

30:33

happen. I've heard many, many

30:36

TV mixes that are incredibly

30:38

emotional. It's just they are appropriately

30:41

mixed in the appropriate space.

31:01

20,000 Hertz is produced out of the sound design

31:03

studios of de facto sound.

31:05

This episode was written, produced and

31:07

reported by Ashley Hamer. It

31:09

was story edited by Casey Emerling

31:11

and Andrew Anderson. With help from

31:14

Grace East. It was sound designed

31:16

and mixed by Brandon Rett. Thanks

31:19

to our guests, Ben Pearson and Tom

31:21

Curley. And thanks to all of the listeners

31:23

who sent in their stories, including Bruno,

31:25

Charlie, Dewey, Jason, Joshua,

31:28

Malcolm, Michael, Poppy, Ryan,

31:30

and not one, not two, but

31:32

three different zacks. Finally,

31:35

Ashley hosts her own podcast

31:37

where she explores the science behind different

31:39

societal taboos. It's called Taboo

31:42

Science, and it's available right here in

31:44

your podcast player. I'm Dallas Taylor.

31:46

Thanks for

31:46

listening. Hey,

31:56

listeners, a few quick reminders. Keep

31:58

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31:59

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