0:00

before we get started, started i want to take a moment to say

0:02

thank you i've received so

0:04

many about her last episode breathe

0:06

it was a really emotional show to make,

0:08

and i was pretty nervous about sharing

0:10

my story, but i've been really

0:12

moved by your kind words i

0:15

also heard from quite a a few people are dealing

0:17

similar issues around anxiety

0:19

i hope that in some small way, hearing

0:21

my story helps and that by talking about

0:23

these issues more openly we can normalize

0:26

them so thank you again to

0:28

everyone who wrote in it really does mean

0:30

a lot

0:40

we just reads a hundred and fifty episodes

0:43

and i still can't believe we've made it this far

0:46

to celebrate the occasion i wanted to pull back

0:48

the curtain of at last , you

0:50

heard a deeply personal story about my

0:52

life before this podcast this week

0:54

you'll hear part of a discussion i had with my friend

0:57

jordan over on his podcast the jordan

0:59

harbinger so now this episode

1:01

this gonna sound completely different than our

1:03

normal show it's a lot more conversational

1:06

and very fast paced but jordan

1:08

is but fantastic interviewer and does and

1:10

really great job of asking thoughtful questions

1:13

that people ask me about often in

1:15

this episode we cover a lot of different topics

1:18

what sound design is how it's used

1:20

in movie trailers whether analog sounds

1:22

better than digital deep sakes sonic

1:25

breeding and more it was more it

1:27

fun interview and i hope you'll enjoy

1:29

here's to run

1:34

i'm not sure people have heard of sound designers before

1:37

and they have they probably the same page i was before

1:39

this which is i as a pick the music for

1:41

a scene in a movie

1:48

then that's about it or maybe

1:50

they add like a punching sound of the punches

1:52

and loud enough in austin seen

1:57

obviously there's a lot more to it and

1:59

you're kind of part of his big magic trick is

2:02

the audience isn't thinking about what they hear but with

2:04

a c and if it were a drawing you'd be

2:06

saving it right with a pencil you're

2:08

spot on because i think a lot about sound design

2:10

as a slight of year because

2:12

we're essentially putting up a smokescreen

2:15

for what it actually sounds like and

2:17

so what does amazon or actually does

2:19

is just tons of a layers of stuff

2:22

i do a lot of trailers with big

2:24

blog the

2:27

boozers and

2:30

things that just get you totally hyped there's

2:35

just like a million sound effects categories

2:38

and layers to every single

2:40

piece of video or film or

2:42

television or add that we do so

2:44

when you look at two guys a trailer

2:46

that the like are i had the trailer is they're climbing

2:49

a mountain and it's really isolated

2:51

it's really snowy are you thinking in your

2:53

head where i make that whistling sound

2:55

that snow hitting snow on the top of a mountain

2:58

makes yes because when

3:00

doesn't sound good at all wind if

3:02

we just take like a sample of when

3:06

it sounds like white noise so

3:08

even you saying like top of a cold

3:11

mountain unlike that of like a fake

3:13

wind so every time it's cold i'm like don't

3:15

give me like the white noise wind i need

3:17

the wisley like performed when the side

3:23

and we got a perceive it that way as humans

3:25

but when you put a require microphone somewhere

3:28

some as a microphone does not capture

3:30

what your brain has interpreted it just

3:32

sounds like us and

3:34

there's really no no character or coldness

3:36

to we didn't shoes and

3:39

craft the sounds and mold them to

3:41

have a character out of their own and so even

3:43

like with every environment that we do

3:45

or or foley or something it's all performances

3:47

were thinking a lot about what's

3:50

being said should be dissonant wind

3:52

is something dissonant happening on screen the

3:54

will even like effect choices based

3:56

off of the content of what we're trying to

3:58

make the viewer feel like

4:00

one thing i was thinking of was i think

4:02

it was free solo or maybe it was another movie

4:04

that i saw where somebody was climbing and

4:07

there's a scene where it might have even

4:09

been like mission impossible with those fake rock climbing

4:11

scenes of soccer is but in there's one was

4:13

hanging with one hand and i noticed

4:15

the wind got to hire hit

4:23

who would mean faster might also the

4:25

wind just happens to kick up even faster when

4:27

he sang by one hand and at the out on a they're trying

4:29

to get us to feel like it

4:32

is off balance and that things are happening

4:34

rapidly so they just speed the wind up in reality

4:37

there's probably no wind on this area

4:39

at all

4:40

his clothes aren't even really moving or anything

4:42

is is a yes like a magician what

4:45

a magician is doing is something that looks so

4:47

eloquent and clean in front of you

4:49

there's all this dirty work that happens

4:51

just in the shadow you can't see

4:53

it and everything which really fluid everything makes

4:55

sense but right underneath the surface there's a lot

4:58

of work happening just a craft every

5:00

microsecond that sound design as

5:02

enjoy down design is very much

5:04

like composing

5:06

the real world

5:07

in a lot of ways you know when we've also

5:09

had this this is a rich cinema history

5:12

that has taught us what these

5:14

things sound like as well which are not

5:16

really real like when we're doing

5:18

footsteps on grass most of the time

5:21

you know that like of the little like the yellow

5:23

sweeper it looks like there's it's almost like

5:26

say that this is the real standard

5:28

like broom most of the time

5:30

when we're just putting and footsteps that urban foliage

5:33

or grass or whatever we're just crunching that as

5:35

were watching the screen

5:38

just because it sounds so much more

5:40

distinct then a lotta times actually with dirt

5:42

a lot of always studios what does have like a little dirt

5:45

pit where i've seen him manipulate just little

5:47

tiny bits of dirt with their fingers

5:52

because it sounds more crispin clear in

5:54

also dirt is dirty so

5:57

like you know what to just are stomping around in a room and

5:59

kicking up dust

5:59

for people who don't know what fully is this is

6:02

well how do you even explain this i've seen it and studios

6:04

i'll rent a studio and i'll go why do you have

6:07

gravel and a small kitty

6:09

litter sandbox look in thing and

6:11

other all we do foley here too

6:13

this is making a sound that is supposed

6:15

to be like footsteps hitting the ground like it is messing

6:17

with dirt accept the have to do it into a really

6:19

high quality microphone and like you said

6:21

you don't want to just start make a huge mess

6:23

in a room with thirty thousand dollar sound board

6:26

you have to have its or localized so

6:28

foley is essentially the sound

6:30

elements that a human in the

6:32

peace is touching whether it's with their hands

6:35

be could be their clothing and it could be their feet

6:37

generally now for we will kind of veer into

6:39

more unique sounds on sept because they have giant

6:42

rooms of junk but for the most

6:44

part the core aspect of foley is

6:46

done by humans in front of a screen in

6:48

real time because what they're trying to do is

6:50

all of those intangible moments

6:52

they're trying to perform

6:55

for they're actor it's like an extension

6:57

of what the actor is doing so we have bad foley

7:00

he can actually take away from the performance of the actor

7:02

i think that the confusion with solely as like why don't

7:04

you just go to a library fine footsteps

7:07

and than kind of sink them sink there always

7:09

job is to be a very performative

7:11

art because if you just put in stocks

7:14

footsteps

7:18

even the way we walk can vary

7:20

greatly isn't like if you're mad at your partner

7:22

something you want to stomp away that's

7:26

a different performance father stop

7:29

then i don't know someone just a

7:31

you know you ever seen in a long time arrives at your front door

7:37

so you know we talk about like environments

7:40

but there are these kind of funny sounds that they're kind of funny

7:42

to me because they're so overtly trying to like

7:44

have sex you yeah i'm thinking things like in a trailer

7:46

were you here like a blob you know are

7:48

we ever going to get their plan maybe

7:51

some and in some like a line

7:54

that's light a little piece of what's

7:56

going to happen in the movie alibi like a whole

7:58

reimagine the eighties

8:00

crack in a new way of kind

8:02

of spooky flight the building blocks

8:04

of a trailer and so like hits

8:07

and shimmers in

8:09

xingu than

8:12

those things are used just so

8:14

liberally and advertising just a like reach

8:16

into your like prime all brain

8:18

and try to pull on that fear response as

8:20

you describe that i'm like okay

8:22

, standing on us open

8:24

plains dystopian skyline in

8:27

the distance last two slugs

8:29

split second of an ass and seen one alien

8:31

is like missing out towards them later on

8:33

in the movie ticket

8:35

jokes actually for centers durham bees

8:38

and that loud yet at love like fog horn

8:40

that's not quite that's foghorn things to some version

8:42

of yeah for of while yeah a

8:47

and so it is funny because it's

8:49

almost predictably cliche and yet

8:51

if you find a trailer that doesn't have that job

8:53

didn't do your job or adrian in this decade

8:56

anyway yeah exactly as the on until we get

8:58

sick of that because everyone uses it many have to find

9:00

something else there's a good reason for it

9:02

and this is what's so fascinating just without

9:04

sound design to me is like a lot

9:06

of this stuff may seem like oh that's scary sam

9:08

was put it in but a lot of the stuff is very

9:11

much psychological it's

9:13

playing off of our primal

9:15

urges and feelings were living

9:17

in like the future right now this is our

9:20

ancestors would see this like we're live in legit

9:22

in the future now even were

9:24

couple generations ago the

9:26

lifestyle for all of human history

9:28

before that was a lot different hunter

9:30

gatherer basic needs things like that the

9:33

like when we put a nice hits our

9:35

brains are still living in a thousand years

9:37

ago you know what we're getting there but like they're so

9:39

many things in the way that we do things it's just

9:42

our brains are prepared for anxiety

9:44

situations he a public speaking things

9:46

like that they found that's a thing

9:48

that you can kind of play off of enough you're

9:50

not creepy old house and you hear

9:52

one little twig break or something

9:54

in the middle the night your brain go straight to there's

9:56

a robber and i'm in

9:59

in wilde is just pure how settling your something like that

10:02

the lot of those sounds are really just trying to like

10:04

hit you in those places that are

10:06

kind of the primitive brain to make you

10:09

feel these like really

10:11

responses that you they would naturally have

10:13

what is very much like a magic trick mix with neuroscience

10:17

now i argue that we've gone so far

10:19

in the epic direction especially with like superhero

10:21

movies and things like that that it's becoming a super

10:23

cliche saying even if we rewind

10:26

a decade or two ago do you remember when trailers

10:28

were just like jack murtha

10:30

julie and the coffee shop and as well

10:32

as stuff that happens the movie that cut

10:35

together as together as that has since cut to

10:37

get with a narrator now we've hit this like

10:39

the two thousand and ten plus

10:41

cliche of the bargain a little tired

10:43

of which is is that overly epic everything

10:46

that in crafting a mini story or whatnot but

10:48

you know what it's marketing there's a lot

10:50

of money involved were try to get five

10:52

hundred million dollars out of a movie they're

10:55

gonna probably throw everything they can at

10:57

it

11:06

coming up i give my take on some of the biggest

11:09

sonic questions out there questions like

11:11

is analog really better than digital

11:14

what makes a great sonic logo how

11:16

to noise cancelling headphones actually work

11:19

and how will society deal with the rise

11:21

of audio deep takes welcoming

11:24

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that's athletic greens dot com slash two

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zero okay

12:41

congratulations to matthew

12:43

callahan for getting last episode mystery sound

12:45

right

12:51

that was the predators clicking sound

12:53

from the nineteen eighty seven movie starring arnold

12:55

schwarzenegger voice actor peter cullen

12:57

came up with the sounds for the predator speaking

13:00

at a convention he said that the sound was inspired

13:02

by a horseshoe crab he saw dying

13:04

on a beach when he was a kid

13:06

rom and horseshoe crab was coming oldest

13:08

crackling sounds bubble

13:10

is coming out that are bursting

13:16

so i thought okay

13:22

anyway here's this episodes mystery

13:25

solved

13:27

if you know what that sound is submit

13:29

your guests at the web address mystery

13:31

dot twenty k dot org anyone

13:34

who guess is that right will be entered to win a

13:36

super soft twenty thousand hertz t-shirt

13:44

when it comes to app to sign a simpler

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we just reached our hundred

14:52

and fiftieth episode to mark the

14:54

occasion i sat down with my friend jordan

14:56

harbinger to talk about sound design movie

14:58

trailers this podcast and more

15:01

jordan also asked me about some of the most

15:03

important questions and sound today including

15:06

the neverending debate over analog

15:08

vs digital

15:11

when people say

15:14

analog sounds better than digital is that

15:16

kind of a guess i am not really

15:18

in the camp that analog sounds better

15:20

than digital but what i will concede

15:23

that a way that we approached music

15:25

in the analog era was much

15:27

more active than how we approach music

15:30

in the digital era and what i mean by

15:32

that is like where do you had a cassette

15:34

tapes or a record

15:38

you had to like dig through benz to

15:40

find something that you may or may not be able to listen

15:42

to you look at the artwork you go through

15:44

it he pull it out you go buy it you're

15:46

invested in listening to this you have like skyn

15:49

in the game for this thing southern when

15:51

you put this record on your like

15:53

trainings your body and mind

15:55

to think about it and engage with

15:58

it he only have so many of them i can only

16:00

a few of them is i'm i'm i didn't even like but i've listened

16:02

to because that's all i had the thing that we

16:04

lost in the transition from analog to digital

16:06

is that approach because now it's

16:09

like everything is so disposable this i don't like

16:11

something in two seconds i can step

16:22

so we get lighter big series

16:24

of big singles and music that now

16:26

being made for that style

16:28

of just like almost click bait type

16:30

i mean still amazing music being made that

16:33

i think that's the thing that like bums me out the most

16:35

is that we just don't approach even

16:37

listening to music with the same

16:39

level of skin and the game as we did

16:41

when they're analog mediums so i would really say

16:44

they sound better or worse i just think

16:46

that our minds were more conscious about

16:48

listening therefore that's

16:50

a big reason why i think analog

16:52

sounds better because we're more primed for

16:54

it looking at new devices like noise

16:57

cancelling headphones which i really like they

16:59

create a bunch of different sounds probably that i can't hear

17:01

that site will actually how do those words

17:03

a simple answer is that there's a little

17:05

microphone that recording everything outside

17:08

and coming in and it's instantaneously

17:12

the whipping the signal so think

17:14

about like what you'd consider like our sine

17:16

wave or just for anybody who's like have ever seen just like

17:18

audio waves like think of audio ways

17:20

in your brain you think about a line that goes

17:23

up and there's a line in the middle and in that line

17:25

crosses and it goes down and that comes back and

17:27

meet in the middle that a sine wave it's the most pure

17:29

tone the

17:32

when i think about the same way the what

17:34

happens is as if we're recording that sine

17:36

wave what happens in the noise cancelling is immediately

17:39

is slipping the seas that's where

17:41

the generating and opposite signal

17:44

to the signal that's coming in so therefore

17:46

in theory if you have the waveform

17:48

going up in the same way form going down a

17:50

cancels out to nothing so that's

17:53

even if you've ever worked in audio or anything

17:55

like that if you just simply take be audio

17:57

put another piece audio slipped assays on it

17:59

it will go to silence for yeah that's essentially

18:02

how that works so if i'm

18:04

cancelling out a really loud sound

18:06

does that mean i'm just playing another really loud

18:09

but opposite sound into my ear

18:11

yeah there's a lot of debate on that i've talked

18:13

to bows directly about that specific saying

18:15

the ideas that you still don't want to be

18:17

slamming doors around noise cancelling headphones

18:20

because what you're here is the noise cancelling

18:22

will sail the a lot of times

18:24

like if i have headphones on and maybe i

18:26

say amador you'll actually series disengage

18:29

here like a quickie digital thing

18:32

because it is it keep up with that level of

18:34

volume to the so fast the

18:37

actually doing cancel out by the time it's hitting your

18:39

ear at the same time bows

18:41

and these companies would say you don't use these for hearing

18:43

protection so i'm sure there's a lot of nuance

18:45

to that what do you think of deep sake

18:48

sound i'm this is fresh and my mind because

18:50

i just saw that the lenski the president

18:52

of ukraine that was there a russian deep sake

18:54

of him saying all were surrendering lay down

18:56

your weapons and you know the russians are gonna

18:59

you prisoner and it'll all be good and fine ukraine's

19:03

no use nuclear more the president

19:05

them away bullshit the and

19:09

it didn't fool anyone because the ukrainians

19:11

have been seeing russian disinformation for a really long

19:14

time and so has it all of eastern europe for that

19:16

matter but they can do pretty

19:18

impressive deep sake voices the

19:21

videos not going to be too much further away with in

19:23

terms of processing power and the ability to do that

19:25

in the next few years in a convincing way

19:28

these deep think voices i

19:30

haven't seen what adobe has

19:32

said they have and so what they have

19:35

because they won't release it to the public right for

19:37

good reason because it's just gonna create all kinds

19:39

of chaos i predicted that they were going to make

19:41

a politician i dare say something

19:43

that they would never say that see the racist

19:45

or a big gas or a policy change i didn't

19:47

think they would have a president surrender in a war

19:49

but it's the most obvious used for this kind of technology

19:52

but with vocals it's really gonna be hard

19:54

to detect can we trust our years

19:56

now

19:57

this moment maybe

20:00

so i did a show on this an eye

20:02

test the team and i was like i want my voice for

20:04

the first minute men and a half to be as convincing

20:06

as possible but it's not me wait , minute

20:08

what's what's going on here i was in the middle

20:10

of saying something sorry but who are you

20:13

on dallas taylor know i'm

20:15

dallas taylor no i think you'll

20:17

find i in dallas

20:19

so to do that we worked with when the guess

20:21

in the guest even was very concerned

20:24

about telling us exactly how was done

20:26

like we never really got an answer of the actual

20:29

ways it was done but essentially the

20:31

said send me three hours of your narration

20:34

there's nothing else and then i'm gonna

20:36

push it through some supercomputer it is gonna do

20:38

a lot ai stuff and machine learning then

20:41

that's gonna make this thing in a more audio

20:43

the better with this is all this nuanced than it does take

20:45

a long time to make a convincing so we

20:47

did that food a lot of people with the intro

20:49

not being me so the experiment

20:51

was like can i convince people who been

20:53

listening to all of these shows that i am not real

20:56

him and i think it did a good job the show was

20:58

called deep they dallas so any kind of are tipped

21:00

off right off the bat so i think that you can kind of get

21:02

it but if you're just if you didn't mean look at the title i think

21:04

it's really convincing even when we make

21:06

episodes now we put in a deep fake

21:08

voice of me we have the words per minute

21:10

my cadence all that stuff and we can build out

21:13

the show i can approach it

21:15

as an outsider and then craft it it

21:17

before actually come to it so there's really

21:19

interesting uses for deep take like that i

21:22

would never use it on the show but just like a tool to

21:24

put me in the seat of the listener rather than

21:26

me being the seat of the host which is

21:28

a different perspective but will it

21:30

get better of yeah it's gonna it's

21:32

gonna keep getting better

21:33

i haven't

21:34

heard a lot of deep sakes that are super

21:36

convincing yet where the pitfalls are

21:39

is in a motion and i know that's the next

21:41

frontier were when i'm speaking

21:43

right now yup i'm going down

21:45

everything has meaning i'm communicating

21:48

meaning in the way that i'm singing so that's like

21:50

the difference between what

21:52

the machine is doing now versus

21:55

where it's trying to go and can you get

21:57

the machine to understand the context in

21:59

a motion the that's gonna be the thing

22:01

that makes that more convincing and it will

22:03

be able to pick out in the source audio

22:05

when someone's happy or

22:07

the quirks that they do i mean i have voice courts

22:09

you have voice clerks that you just know are you

22:12

the like the way that we sing are words is

22:14

complex and will get better

22:16

yeah it will

22:18

yeah to the point where i can be used against

22:20

us especially when you're talking

22:22

about nation states i cannot think the nation

22:25

state law russia or

22:27

iran or the united states would have

22:29

any qualms about grabbing adobe software the

22:31

like listen what we're going to do with us we're going to make the ayatollah

22:34

said is horrible thing and we're gonna play it for everybody in

22:36

iran and it's gonna take the political system

22:38

over there in a way that we can have that desirable

22:40

for us that the almost for sure

22:42

already happening the undetectable

22:45

or were very close to that point and we won't

22:47

know until later that something is foot

22:49

you're wondering i find interesting is that social

22:51

media and how much that is important

22:54

to politicians now i think it's going to be a combating

22:56

effect of that you know if you have the talking

22:59

head in front of a podium and that's all

23:01

of the communication comes from the white house

23:03

press room welcome everyone to the white

23:05

house you have a lot of data that

23:07

you can make sound just like that would

23:10

you have someone like the whiskey or whatever going

23:12

out and just showing him doing this and

23:14

doing that and being in the world and in just a terrible

23:16

microphone on the phone or whatever that's

23:18

gonna be protection with deep lake because that's

23:21

gonna be hard when you're trying to not only

23:23

get the cadence right in all this stuff and edit that's

23:25

your thing we forget about the brakes i'm a sound

23:28

designer i'm a sound editor i couldn't

23:30

not only get a deep fake but i could

23:32

adjust to in ways and then added it to

23:34

make it exactly the way that i want me as well

23:36

we didn't are so we did a deep sake but we did like

23:38

five takes a deep aches and stop six the best

23:41

ones so i think that like part of the way to combat

23:43

that is putting yourself in

23:45

situations where it's just not as easy

23:47

to do that you're out in the open if your

23:50

social media style that's going to be

23:52

detectable there's a lot of complexities

23:55

in sound design to not only deep sake the performance

23:57

but then also get the environments right because i think

23:59

a lot of hurt even like me i think i'd be

24:01

able to pick out most if i really analyze

24:04

how it sounds

24:05

sonic branding is interesting read the second

24:07

i give you an example the intel inside sound

24:09

right

24:12

when you see those commercials everybody

24:14

knows what that sound is the second they hear

24:17

it they're looking at the logo in their head

24:19

in so this is up a

24:21

brilliant play because you can evoke

24:23

a branded logo or animation

24:26

into my head with a sound even if there's

24:28

no screen anywhere near you what

24:30

else is going on masonic granting they can't be the only

24:32

reason they do this

24:34

when netflix leaned

24:36

into that and made a sonic brand that was

24:38

there all the time i felt like that was a moment

24:41

in history where really started to explode

24:43

many more companies started going what's

24:45

the reasoning for this we're very

24:47

visual creatures and general so like

24:49

a logo seems to make a lot of sense artwork

24:51

makes a lot of sense with sound

24:54

we just don't think about it a lot so we don't get what what

24:56

does it matter what something sounds like if you

24:58

walk into like your grandmother's house and

25:00

you smell that dish that only

25:02

she makes or that baking

25:04

that only she did that just washes

25:07

you with nostalgia in good feelings

25:10

so when you think of something like you know netflix

25:12

which netflix considered the most iconic sonic

25:14

branding out there the call

25:16

to action that says you're done put your phone

25:18

down you're about to watch something incredible

25:20

your brain unconsciously as thinking

25:23

about this because you know hopefully are watching stuff

25:25

that has a consistency of entertaining you

25:27

if you have that positive association

25:29

than that sound is essentially

25:31

training you to go and stop

25:33

with things

25:37

it was interesting about that particular thing

25:39

is when i was it was actually the first time that the

25:41

company had ever spoken on on it so

25:44

speaking with todd yelling who would lead the effort

25:46

at netflix they were exploring all these different

25:48

options in when they were kind of putting

25:50

this in front of audiences there was another option

25:53

that i found hilarious is that they

25:55

wanted to kind of evoke the old leo

25:57

the lion idea you know m g m

26:02

they wanted this to feel like a big cinematic moment

26:05

so they thought a lot about animals being

26:07

a part of at are having some sort of call and response

26:09

in there the thing that i learned out of that

26:11

logo that just kind of blew my mind as

26:13

he said there was almost a goat bleat

26:16

in that so yeah and i was like

26:18

i don't believe you and he was like you can

26:20

hear at the pr person played it straight

26:22

off of their phone they said no joke this is exactly what you

26:25

what we were doing and it sounded exactly like the

26:27

netflix logo it was just like this

26:31

ah

26:33

the ingredients of this are really interesting

26:35

i don't understand that a life of me how people

26:37

come up with the idea on how to make a sound but

26:39

that's why you guys do what you do because

26:41

it's not something that i can just that anybody can

26:44

pick up and do randomly i think

26:46

there is this assumption that a sonic brain is a cool

26:48

sound that is just the opposite i

26:50

would say that the thing that takes us the longest

26:52

out of everything we do is sonic branding

26:55

the shorter the sound the longer

26:57

it takes on this thing can take months the

27:00

reason it takes months is because every one of the sonic

27:02

brands mean something deeply that's

27:04

one of the reasons i started the podcast is because

27:06

there are these incredibly nuance stories

27:09

behind of why things sound the way that

27:11

they do that are just going to be lost to

27:13

history dallas taylor thank you so much man

27:15

thank you

27:20

this episode was part of a longer conversation

27:22

i had with jordan we also talked about jingles

27:25

a as them or movie dialogue and more

27:27

you can hear the full episode on the jordan harbinger

27:30

show over there jordan talks

27:32

to all kinds of fascinating people from

27:34

legendary artists to intelligence operatives

27:37

to star athletes recent guests

27:39

include basketball phenomenon to wins wade

27:41

psychologist steven pinker and journalist

27:43

anderson cooper in these interviews

27:46

they break down exactly what they do and

27:48

how they do at jordan is a great

27:50

interviewer and it's always fascinating

27:52

and insightful so go take a minute

27:55

to go subscribe to the jordan harvard you're so

27:57

right here in your podcast player

28:00

twenty thousand hertz has produced out of the studios

28:02

of de facto found for some tasty sonic

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this , was created in association with podcast

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once my team is jen harbinger jace

28:12

sanderson robert forbid he merely ocampo

28:14

ian baird just ballard and gabriel

28:16

miss right before we go

28:19

i want to extend a huge thank you

28:21

to all of our listeners for supporting us engaging

28:23

with us and helping us get this far

28:26

your support and enthusiasm really

28:28

means the world to us and we couldn't

28:30

have done it without you here's

28:32

to another hundred and sixty

28:47

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