0:00

It's punk rock bowling time. That's

0:02

right for the 24th year. One

0:06

of the greatest festivals on earth,

0:08

in my opinion, returns to downtown

0:10

Las Vegas, the weekend of May

0:12

25th, 26th and 27th. I

0:16

have had some of my greatest times playing

0:18

this thing and just hanging out of

0:20

this thing. You wanna know how much this

0:22

festival speaks to turn out a punk's

0:24

mindset? The headliners are Devo, Descendants and Madness.

0:27

Every day of this festival, the lineup

0:30

is stacked with amazing bands of

0:32

all types and stripes of punk

0:34

and hardcore from all different eras,

0:36

from ska to post hardcore. And

0:39

we're talking like Bratmobile to Rock

0:41

from the Crypt to Stiff Little

0:43

Fingers to the Cosmic Psychos to

0:45

Scowls. And

0:48

then there's also all these late night

0:50

after shows which are happening. And you

0:52

wouldn't believe the lineup of these things

0:54

from the zeros to agnostic front. And

0:57

everything in between. This

0:59

festival is out of control

1:02

for fans of punk. So

1:05

I hope I will see you there. Cause

1:07

this isn't like some sort of festival that

1:09

you just go to and the bands are

1:11

secluded in some sort of backstage area. Bands

1:14

and fans and just punks alike are

1:16

all just taking over downtown Las

1:18

Vegas. So you turn around and

1:21

all of a sudden you're gambling beside John Doe from

1:23

X. I don't know if John

1:25

Doe gambles, but if you turn around

1:27

on the buffet line, you'll probably see me.

1:29

And you better believe we're gonna be talking

1:31

about punk music. And because this festival loves

1:33

this podcast, as much as this podcast loves

1:35

this festival, Punk Rock Bowling

1:38

is bringing you a series of special

1:40

episodes. So each and every week I

1:42

will have an episode going up featuring

1:44

someone that's playing this festival and

1:47

hot damn are there some good

1:49

ones coming. Head over

1:51

to punkrockboling.com and hopefully

1:53

I see you in downtown Las Vegas,

1:56

May 25th, 26th and 20th. You

2:30

You Grow

2:33

up listen to punk may or may not still be involved

2:35

with punk But I believe changed by the genre in

2:37

a major way and on the show

2:40

huge guest very much requested on this

2:42

show from the band Laitigra from the

2:44

zine and banned bikini kill an

2:47

author of the must-read new book

2:49

rebel girl Kathleen Hannah is on

2:51

the show today and this is

2:54

a This is a

2:56

great episode more on that in one

2:58

second But first if you want to

3:00

get in touch with the podcast head over to the email address turned on

3:02

punk [email protected] That is run by

3:04

my brother who is the

3:06

show producer and the guest

3:09

booker? Extraordinary Tristan Abraham and he

3:11

will get the message to me. Thank you

3:13

Tristan for all the hard work you do

3:15

for the show You can find

3:17

me over on Twitter or Instagram at left for

3:19

Damien There is a YouTube page a

3:21

tick-tock page an Instagram page and a Facebook page all

3:24

for this podcast and all of those can be Found

3:26

at turned out a punk on those

3:28

platforms to support the show tell all your

3:30

friends about it let all your friends know

3:32

that we do this podcast twice a week here and That

3:35

there's tons of episodes in the catalog to

3:38

and spread the word that way. I play

3:41

in a band We are called fucked up. You can

3:43

find out more information over at fucked up. Cc we

3:46

have records we have tour dates that we're gonna be announcing

3:48

soon and Appreciate

3:50

your support on on

3:53

that front too. All right, that's

3:55

it for me on to today's show as

3:57

I set off the top huge guest cast

4:00

Kathleen Hanna is on this podcast, someone I've wanted

4:02

to talk to for years.

4:04

I've never actually spoken to her in any

4:06

way, shape or form prior to sitting down

4:08

to do this interview. So this is

4:10

someone that I was very excited

4:12

to get to do this with. And as I

4:14

said off the top as well, she has a

4:16

fantastic new book that is a must read. It

4:19

is called Rebel Girl, My

4:21

Life as a Feminist Punk. And

4:24

this book is out in

4:27

a few weeks now, actually. I've had it

4:29

pre-ordered forever. On May 14th, it

4:31

will be hitting store shelves. And

4:34

I've read it. It is a very

4:38

powerful book. There's a lot of incredible

4:40

stuff in it. I don't want to spoil too much of it.

4:42

This interview doesn't really spoil stuff. It's more like

4:45

hints and teasers for what's to come

4:47

inside this thing. So I

4:49

don't want to spoil this episode by rambling on too

4:51

much about it in advance. Yeah.

4:56

Check out the episodes also with Toby

4:58

Vail from Bikini Kill and Kathy

5:00

Wilcox from Bikini Kill, one of

5:02

the most important punk bands. Certainly

5:05

in my lifetime. Actually, most of the punk

5:07

bands I guess are in

5:10

my lifetime. There's like three years before my

5:12

lifetime. Well, I guess proto-pone. So anyway, Bikini

5:15

Kill, one of the most important punk bands ever in

5:18

anyone's lifetime. And

5:20

yeah, that's it. I'm not going to ramble

5:22

on too much more. I got

5:24

tornades. Go check out bikinikill.com. They're

5:27

maybe coming to a town near you and go

5:30

and see them live. Fantastic. That's

5:33

Bikini Kill. If you don't know Bikini Kill, you know what?

5:37

Sit back, relax and enjoy Kathleen Hanna on

5:40

Turned Out A Punk.

5:47

Kathleen, thank you so much for coming on the

5:49

show. I'm very excited to talk to

5:51

you, Dumin. Well, I'm very excited to

5:53

talk to you. I feel like this conversation

5:56

for me is like 30 years

5:58

in the making. making

6:00

this year because I've wanted to talk to you since

6:03

the mid 90s when I first got into

6:05

this music and throughout all the stuff you've

6:07

done and now having read your book, there's

6:09

just so many questions. Oh, you read the book.

6:11

Oh, I love it. It's a

6:13

hard read. There's a lot of stuff you're very

6:16

forthcoming about a lot of experiences. So it's

6:18

weird to say I love it like it's a laugh

6:21

ride or something. Yeah, but it's

6:23

like liking a really tough

6:26

political post. Exactly. On

6:28

the internet where you're like, should I put

6:30

a heart next to this? I'm really appreciative.

6:32

This person is educating me or telling me

6:34

that they're supportive of something that I

6:37

care about, but it's like, should I

6:39

be liking it? Yeah, I

6:41

know what you mean. Well, hopefully it wasn't too hard

6:43

of a read. I tried to make the chapter short

6:45

so that people could set it down when they needed

6:47

to and give themselves a break.

6:50

But I don't think it's not all like trauma,

6:52

trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. Like, yeah, I

6:54

think there's a lot of hopefully there's a lot of joy in

6:56

there. I worked pretty hard to find the joy. So

6:59

it's fun as like a

7:01

fan of a band outside of the trauma stuff. I

7:03

mean, like to be able to finally contextualize

7:06

a lot of the stuff that in

7:08

a pre-internet era, you're just kind of like

7:11

piecing together from zine fragments or something someone

7:13

told you and sort of kind of have

7:15

it all laid out. I'm like, oh my

7:17

gosh, it like really brought me

7:19

back to time and places of like learning about this

7:21

stuff or hearing about these things or finding

7:24

the records and stuff. So it's a fantastic book. But

7:27

I'm interested to know since like you're

7:29

somebody who's kind of like a super fan of punk

7:32

in general, you know what I mean? What

7:36

was interesting to you about

7:38

that you didn't know that you were like,

7:40

is it like the Smells Like Teen Spirit story or is it

7:42

like, you know, just like, oh, what it

7:45

felt like to go on stage in the 90s or you

7:47

know what I mean? Or the thing

7:49

of, you know, we're one

7:51

of the last generations that's going to have

7:53

experienced both like kind of analog, you

7:55

know, in real life stuff and then digital.

8:00

So for me, I've started to realize that there's

8:02

going to be an audience, I'm hoping there's

8:04

going to be an audience of people who

8:06

are more in our age group who are

8:08

like, identify with that thing, because that's a

8:10

really big shift that happened

8:12

that occurs in real time in the book.

8:15

And I don't talk about it as a subject. It's just kind

8:17

of in the background. But I

8:19

don't know, I'm just trying to find out like, as

8:21

somebody who loves a lot

8:23

of punk music, knows a lot

8:25

about it, what was interesting to you?

8:28

Well, I kind of, it made me really think

8:30

about it. And

8:32

out of the 90s punk, like there's a lot of bands that

8:35

emerged to kind of like, shape

8:37

this culture or shift things.

8:41

But most of those things happened to the mainstream

8:44

and affected the mainstream music.

8:46

Like underground music didn't need

8:48

nirvana. Mainstream music needed nirvana. And eventually nirvana

8:50

repopulates the underground. But in the same way

8:52

Green Day and Rancid, like they had already

8:55

done their time in the underground. Bikini

8:58

Kill changed the underground. Like it's

9:00

just fascinating to kind of go back to that

9:02

time and place where I'm just first getting into it and kind

9:04

of like learning about

9:06

this stuff and kind of seeing things.

9:08

But how much it's shifted to

9:11

where punk is now. And it's

9:14

yourselves, it's bands,

9:17

Bratmobile, like Babes in Toyland, who you talk a lot

9:19

about, Fright Week, who I didn't even know about till

9:21

I started doing this podcast. Really

9:24

Bikini Kill and Riot Girl because it was

9:27

something to kind of galvanize

9:29

the scene and change things. And it's just, yeah,

9:32

so I think from a punk perspective,

9:35

it's a hugely important way

9:38

to look in on something that

9:40

shifted this culture. Oh,

9:43

that's cool. Yeah. I mean,

9:45

it's really interesting because there's so

9:47

many great things that happen in

9:49

feminist punk or whatever people want to

9:51

call it, like femme fronted

9:54

or there's already so many great singers

9:56

and so many great people in bands

9:58

and so many great. women

10:00

who are organizing and doing a lot of stuff

10:02

and I think that a Lot

10:06

of what happened in the 90s was just

10:08

giving it a name Yeah,

10:10

what do you mean? Like it was already happening. It wasn't that it

10:13

didn't happen It was more like hey

10:15

you all let's all acknowledge that this is happening

10:18

and that we were trying to change the underground

10:20

for the better And that women

10:22

have been trying to do this forever and since

10:24

the beginning of punk when I think it was

10:26

way more egalitarian back then Although

10:30

there were still horrible hideous problems Yeah,

10:33

I don't know. I just I Feel

10:36

like you know, I definitely

10:38

we definitely stood on the shoulders of a lot of

10:40

other people Who

10:42

came before us and we were learning from them and

10:44

I think I always felt like a

10:46

super fan I'm like one of those annoying

10:48

super fan people who's like You

10:51

know like oh my god I met you know

10:53

I met Alice bag and she's like this lovely

10:56

person and like everything that you could hope for

10:58

as a fan when you meet somebody, you know

11:00

what I mean like, um and

11:03

to become peers with You know

11:06

one of your your heroes is just

11:08

like and get to work with her

11:11

Was amazing and talk about what was you know,

11:13

what was it like? back

11:15

then in the scene, you know versus what is

11:17

it like now and and

11:21

Stuff like that. But well, I think it's interesting

11:23

with Alice bag specifically because when she was on

11:25

the show She's always involved

11:27

in punk and always involved in underground music. But the way

11:29

she talked about how it's changed now

11:32

Versus back then and obviously like you said you're standing

11:34

on the shoulders of Giants and people that like

11:37

helped clear this path but but

11:39

naming it and giving it space

11:42

and it is so important I think

11:44

and just Yeah,

11:46

let's get into all this stuff

11:48

I'm sure but I got to start it

11:50

off Kathleen the way they all start off Which is how did

11:52

you get in a punk from the first time you ever came

11:54

across the word? I

11:57

guess I should have thought about this before because

11:59

the table your pockets, but of course I

12:01

didn't. How did I find out

12:03

about punk? Yeah, I found out about punk on

12:05

TV on a night flight, the

12:07

TV show Night Flight. I

12:12

mean, that show blew my mind in

12:14

a lot of ways, but I think I

12:17

saw like Liquid Sky, which

12:21

maybe would be considered more like New Wave

12:23

or whatever, but I was like, wait, what

12:26

is this? Like, you know, women with like

12:28

hot pink hair. And, you know,

12:32

there's also the queer element in that movie that I was

12:34

like, oh, I think I need to go be alone after

12:36

I watch this. But you know what I mean? Like, it

12:38

was just like, Liquid Sky was a

12:40

big thing and it was on night flight. And

12:44

what else did they have on night flight? I

12:46

think I saw a part of the Fabulous

12:48

Danes on night flight, but I didn't really,

12:50

it didn't register with me. I was just

12:53

like, I was like walking through the room and I was like,

12:55

there's girls playing punk music. So

12:57

I always loved

12:59

it the way that I got into it was

13:02

on TV, because it always made me remember

13:04

that like, especially, you know,

13:07

pre-internet, people who didn't live,

13:09

like I lived in like a

13:11

small suburbs in Maryland. And

13:14

I lived actually really close to this is, you

13:17

know, Brendan and Guy from

13:19

Fuzazi. And like, I lived a few miles away from

13:21

where that was going on at the time it was

13:23

going on. And I didn't know about it, because I

13:25

was, you know, in junior high,

13:27

and my sister listened to Molly Hatchet, and

13:31

Alabama. So

13:33

I wasn't really, and

13:35

we did listen to Chi-Chin Chong, and

13:38

smoke a lot of pop, but like,

13:40

I didn't know that this huge punk

13:42

thing was happening three miles away from

13:44

me. And that's how

13:46

isolated you can be if

13:49

you're not in the know, especially pre-internet.

13:51

And I think even with the internet,

13:54

you know, it does take having access to

13:56

the internet and all of that kind of

13:58

stuff. So just like, medium

14:00

of television you know I

14:03

probably saw the I was a big Quincy I don't

14:05

know if you remember the show Quincy I mean

14:08

you know about the Quincy punks there was a

14:10

sort of Quincy but I think some people

14:12

from verbal assault or

14:15

a person or something or were a person because

14:17

there's two verbal thoughts there's verbal thought East and

14:20

verbal assault with verbal abuse is it

14:22

verbal abuse baby yeah yeah yeah

14:25

that makes sense too because uh yeah there's

14:27

some punks in the crowd and there's there's

14:29

but like you're saying these these moments are

14:31

really important and you talk about in the

14:33

book too when you when you start getting

14:35

into the rejection of

14:37

Nirvana post them signing to the major

14:40

label from the underground but it's

14:43

so important to have these waving

14:46

the flag moments in mainstream culture for kids

14:48

to kind of find out about this stuff

14:50

in a pre-internet world where you

14:52

didn't have access to this information unless you stumbled

14:54

across or had a cool sibling yeah

14:58

I mean representation is really important

15:00

but it's also it's not legislation

15:03

that's how I think about it is like you know

15:07

even now like you know seeing women

15:09

who are more my age playing music

15:12

I'm always like oh you know

15:15

it just makes me feel better it makes me feel validated it

15:17

makes me feel like I have a community

15:19

or seeing actresses

15:21

my age on in

15:24

movies that I like or whatever can make me

15:26

feel more more validated

15:28

and stuff but

15:31

yeah I think representation is super

15:34

duper important and I'm

15:36

already hacking about oh

15:39

just like about how these pop cultural moments

15:41

where this stuff shows up on mainstream places

15:43

is key to kind of yeah no

15:45

and sometimes it's like it's good to be conscious of

15:47

that and be like yeah it's

15:49

okay to have a song in a movie that

15:52

you know you know what one of the interesting

15:55

thing Bikini

15:58

Co was mentioned by Julie Julia Stiles,

16:01

the actress who was in this

16:04

teen movie in the 90s or early 2000s

16:06

called 10 Things I Hate About You or

16:08

Like Hate About You, I think, with

16:11

Heath Ledger. Yeah. And

16:14

in the movie, I hadn't seen, I saw it like

16:16

a few years ago, but it was like in the

16:18

movie, he's like

16:21

trying to like get attention from

16:23

her or something. He's like, oh, are you into Bikini

16:25

Kill? I'm into something like that.

16:28

But I guess it's also mentioned in maybe mentioned in

16:30

the book. And I can't tell you how many people

16:32

have called me and said, I found out about your

16:34

band because of that movie. And I'm like,

16:37

and we didn't make that happen or anything. That

16:39

was just a thing like, Julia Stiles was a

16:41

fan and she asked

16:43

to put it in the phone. And thank

16:45

you, Julia Stiles. But it

16:48

was this thing that that's how I would have

16:50

found out about Bikini Kill. You

16:53

know what I mean? Like I wasn't somebody who

16:55

had access. So I'm always

16:57

kind of conscious of that, even though I think the

17:00

way that we're thought about within

17:02

the underground community is kind of

17:05

like purists or, you know,

17:08

five dollar shows never selling out. I mean, maybe

17:10

people will feel differently about it now that we're

17:12

playing more expensive shows. But,

17:15

you know, this sellout conversation is kind of

17:18

gone by the wayside for which

17:20

is awesome. I

17:22

do think the way people do business, if they choose

17:24

to do it ethically or not, is really important. But

17:28

I think that focusing on, you

17:31

know, bands, which are partially small

17:33

businesses, which are like a four

17:35

person small business and

17:37

pointing to them as the

17:39

people who have to be like holding the entire

17:41

culture, you

17:44

know, up or

17:46

doing, you know, always doing the perfect

17:48

thing when it's like four people instead

17:51

of going after multinational

17:53

corporations that are, you

17:55

know, doing disaster capitalism

17:58

around the world. you

18:00

start to kind of be like, where are we really

18:02

putting our priorities? Like, you know, oh, I didn't like

18:04

that lyric, and I'm going to boycott you. And I

18:06

totally think criticism is like the only way a band

18:09

is going to grow. The only way a scene is

18:11

going to grow. But I think

18:13

that the thing of being like, you

18:15

know, I

18:17

don't like that one lyric, you're dead to me

18:19

forever. And you're just as bad

18:21

as Steve Jobs, or you know what I mean?

18:23

It's like that the amount in the 90s, the

18:28

the inflation of Bikini Kill's power was

18:30

definitely a problem. Like, we didn't have

18:32

the power to like, you know, tell the president

18:34

what to do, but people kind of acted like

18:37

we have this power and the inflation

18:39

of people's power who don't have it is actually

18:41

a very big mindfuck. And then

18:45

something that's interesting that happens in the punk scene, you know,

18:47

like people act like Rollins is God, he's just like some

18:49

dude who killed snakes, like, that's

18:51

the, the, I guess, great

18:53

fallacy in punk is there's like

18:55

no gods and masters except for the people in the bands

18:57

that we turn into gods and masters. And it's interesting, because

19:00

I find so much

19:03

stuff in the book, I find fascinating. But like, there's

19:05

that moment where you're kind of talking about how there's

19:07

like a certain amount of economic privilege that's required for

19:09

like punk purity, like

19:11

to be able to go and play free shows means

19:13

like, no, you got someone else paying the gas

19:15

because that's not free. And, and there is this sort of thing

19:17

in punk rock where like people build

19:23

up this edifice around the person on stage

19:26

where it doesn't necessarily even have a relationship to

19:28

who that person is after a certain point, like,

19:30

Ian Mackay, the person and Ian

19:32

Mackay, the character that sits inside many a young

19:34

punk kid's heart is kind of different in my

19:41

experience, you know, and not in a bad way, but just

19:43

like in a real way that there's a human being and then

19:45

there's sort of this, yeah, taste image. Yeah, I mean, I think

19:47

I use an example in the book of

19:51

like, being at parties in DC and someone holding a beer

19:53

and being like, Oh, Ian, Ian's coming, he

19:57

might say, oh, I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm

19:59

coming. I'm coming. to you drinking a beer, you

20:01

know, or like you're eating a cheeseburger and it's like,

20:03

watch out Ian might see you. It's like he's not

20:05

a narc. You know what I

20:07

mean? And like, I feel like I've occupied that similar

20:10

space in terms of feminism of like, you know, oh,

20:13

you know, you have like a sexist

20:15

magazine out in your house and I come over

20:19

to do an interview or like, you know, a magazine with

20:21

like a girl in a bikini on

20:23

the cover and like, I don't give a shit. You

20:27

know, I'm not I don't care about

20:29

you. Like, that's that's been a lot of things

20:31

is like guilty dudes coming up to me like,

20:33

you know, being

20:35

like, trying to show

20:38

me how they how, you

20:40

know, oh, you really change me around. I don't I don't

20:42

care about you. You know what I mean?

20:44

Like, I don't need to absolve you.

20:46

I'm not Jesus. I'm not gonna say like, Oh,

20:49

you used to be sexist. And now you're not.

20:51

Thanks for telling me. I don't care. Like, I'm

20:54

not thinking about you. The

20:57

Jesus thing though is is is apt because

20:59

one thing I've kind of learned

21:01

from doing this thing is that punk is more religion. And

21:04

these people on stage end up becoming

21:06

like deities in there giving us a

21:09

moral compass and they're giving us like,

21:11

a do's and don'ts list

21:13

in the same way religion gave people

21:15

a do's and don'ts list in a lot

21:17

of ways. So yeah, like you become more about the

21:19

branding at that to brand today. Yeah.

21:23

Is this hard to make money? It's like, it's like,

21:25

Jesus, you're doing

21:27

something off brand Jesus. Yes, you know,

21:29

you mean it's like, it's like, I

21:32

very early on. Realize

21:37

when we started getting shit for playing

21:40

with the go goes because the

21:42

show was sponsored by Budweiser, which like we

21:44

didn't even know, we just knew we were

21:46

asked to open for the go goes. And

21:48

that is a huge brand

21:50

name. Is

21:53

this hard to make money? It's like, it's like,

21:55

Jesus, you're doing something

21:57

off brand Jesus. Yes, you know, you mean

21:59

it's It's like I

22:02

very early on realized

22:07

when we started getting shit for playing

22:10

with the Go-Go's because the

22:12

show was sponsored by Budweiser, which we didn't

22:14

even know. We just knew we

22:16

were asked to open for the Go-Go's. And that

22:18

is a huge deal.

22:24

To me, there's

22:27

no way I'm going to say no to that. I

22:29

don't care. I

22:33

guess if they lit an orphanage on fire the day

22:36

before, maybe I'd say no. But there's no way I'm

22:38

going to say no to that. It's

22:41

the opportunity of a lifetime. So

22:44

when we got to do that and then got

22:47

shit for it, and it was like, you guys

22:49

are sellouts. I was like, you don't understand who

22:52

we are. You don't understand what a big honor

22:54

this is, and you don't care. It

22:57

started to be this thing where I was like, with punk purity, I

22:59

was like, look, a lot of

23:02

my friends are gay and they're getting beat up. Is

23:04

this really the hill you want to die on? Five

23:07

dollar shows, no sponsorship. This

23:10

is the conversation we're

23:12

having when gay kids are

23:14

getting beat up in the front of shows

23:16

for being gay. And

23:19

we're arguing about, oh,

23:21

so-and-so played a show with this man

23:23

that has a sponsorship. Really? Who

23:26

the fuck cares? We're

23:28

talking about barcodes. I

23:30

mean, punk can do a

23:32

lot of things. I think that music, any

23:35

kind of art, any kind of music can create

23:39

a ground, like a

23:41

cultural ground where we're

23:43

supporting people who

23:47

don't like a lot of what

23:49

the government is doing and who

23:51

cares about economic injustice and cares

23:53

about racial injustice and cares about

23:57

their inequity and all of these things. We

24:00

can create a supportive community for that. And

24:02

we can create a place to have joy

24:04

around that and a place to get your

24:06

anger out around that. And that's

24:08

something that people can bring back into

24:11

their everyday lives to like be like,

24:13

I'm gonna keep doing this work that

24:15

is hard because I can listen

24:17

to this music when I'm stressed out or I can go to

24:19

these shows and get like pumped up. But

24:22

we don't change laws and we don't, you

24:25

know, have the power to be,

24:27

you know, God.

24:32

And I think it's something you kind of touch

24:34

on in the book too. It's like, what brings

24:36

a lot of us to punk is trauma. And

24:38

trauma, as you said in the book, begets trauma

24:40

in a lot of ways. And so people bring

24:42

their own bullshit into

24:45

this place. And, you know, what happens when you're

24:47

looking for a family? Cause I feel like that's, that's a

24:49

big thing was that I was like, you

24:52

know, estranged from much of my family and I

24:54

was really looking for a family. And I sort

24:56

of, you know, I found

24:58

two families. I was

25:00

finding like a Fonus family and a

25:03

punk family kind of simultaneously and trying

25:05

to make that into a cohesive thing.

25:08

And it's not really meant to be a

25:10

cohesive thing. It should be a challenging argumentative

25:12

thing. It shouldn't be this, you

25:14

know, also, also if you grow up

25:16

with in a super dysfunctional home, it's like,

25:19

and you're looking for the opposite of that, you're

25:22

gonna be disappointed because

25:25

what is actually awesome and supportive

25:27

and great isn't gonna be the

25:29

opposite of dysfunction. It's still

25:31

good. It's gonna be challenging and interesting and

25:33

hard and there's gonna be conflict. And

25:37

I think I was like just looking

25:39

for this like unconditional love

25:41

and the family that I thought I always

25:44

have and the support and not people being

25:46

like, you're so great cause that makes me

25:48

nervous, but just

25:51

this feeling of, you know, like that, that this

25:53

family was gonna be a feather bed. I could

25:55

throw myself on. And then

25:57

when that didn't meet my expectations, I... was

26:00

just absolutely devastated. You know, when

26:02

I had things happen, like, we're

26:05

like, don't I don't want to deal with the mainstream

26:07

media? Because they asked me really offensive questions about, have

26:10

you been sexually assaulted? Oh, how

26:13

can you be a feminist? Because you're a

26:15

stripper. And, you

26:18

know, they were just like, it wasn't

26:20

this decision of like, I don't want to talk

26:22

to the mainstream stream press, because I'm

26:26

trying to be a punk purist. It was literally

26:28

for me, it was a mental thing. It was

26:30

like, I need to save my mental health. Like

26:33

I can't go into these interviews, almost always

26:35

with men who say abusive things

26:37

to me to get me to react. So

26:40

they can print me saying, you know,

26:42

fuck you back to them and then be like,

26:44

see, she's a crazy man here. Like, I

26:47

just can't put myself into that situation once

26:49

I knew that was a lot of times

26:51

the situation. But

26:54

then it started happening with fancy, with

26:56

doing fan scenes. And it

26:59

was in a way even worse,

27:01

because it's totally unregulated. It's not like we're

27:03

meeting in a coffee shop, we're meeting in an

27:05

alley behind a club after

27:07

the show. And the thing that

27:09

I wrote about in the book that started happening

27:11

was really devastating. Like these guys would

27:14

get me alone and start

27:16

cackling, like, date

27:19

rape guy, like gang rapist, like, like,

27:22

and, and just start seeing

27:24

the most horrible, awful, cruel

27:26

things to me with

27:28

the tape recorder off. And then they would

27:30

hit record. And it

27:32

became and this is one of my connections

27:35

with Ian, with Ian Mackay. And

27:37

why I started like being like, Hey, will you

27:39

hang out with me when I would be in

27:41

DC? Because I was like, I know

27:43

this shit happens to him. Like, because

27:45

people would come to two Gazi shows,

27:48

and specifically scream mean stuff

27:50

at Ian to get him to react because

27:52

they were they wanted the punk rock badge,

27:55

you know, like a like a Boy Scout badge of

27:58

like punk rock honor like Ian Mackay. yelled

28:00

at me. And it's like,

28:03

again, it's like, I thought we were punks

28:05

and the whole idea that we're all participating.

28:08

But if you're starting to treat him like he's like

28:10

Bruce Willis, and you want to see the veins pop

28:12

out of his neck, because he's Bruce Willis. What's

28:16

the difference between the mainstream scene and the punk

28:18

scene? And that for me was devastating, when it

28:20

started happening to me and guys were like, you

28:23

know, trying to get me to yell, I'll

28:26

fucking hate you into their tape recorder. So they

28:28

could, I guess, play it for their friends or

28:30

jack off to it later or whatever. And I

28:32

was like, this was like unpaid sex work right

28:35

now. Like, I'm not, I'm not engaging

28:37

in this. But it was devastating

28:39

because I really care about

28:41

fanzines. And I really

28:43

care about people making their

28:45

own media that is not controlled

28:48

by corporations. So what happens when we

28:50

get that power and we do exactly

28:52

the same thing that

28:54

crappy corporate mainstream publications

28:57

do? Yeah, absolutely.

28:59

That's just sad. Well,

29:01

like you're saying that people come here looking for a

29:03

family so in a fucked up way. People

29:06

on the stage are made into their parents and

29:08

like yelling at your parents and getting to say

29:11

no, fuck you, dad to Ian or fuck you

29:13

mom to you is like the power.

29:15

They call me grandma, they don't call me mom. There's

29:20

but there's just like the

29:22

insecurity that drives so much of this stuff and

29:24

the way we cling to these

29:27

four letters that ultimately

29:29

have different definitions to every single

29:31

person. And I think, like

29:34

you said, why is the book so interesting to

29:36

me as someone obsessed with punk is also because

29:38

I think bikini kill is a

29:40

band that is unlike any other band and

29:42

how many different worlds you exist in at the same

29:44

time in the 90s, which is such a tumultuous

29:47

period for this music. Like we can talk

29:49

about bikini kill in terms of the involvement

29:52

in DC hardcore, but also like ebullition records

29:54

and born against in that whole world, but

29:56

then mainstream pop

29:58

punk stuff like I read about

30:00

you guys I think first time in rancid's

30:03

liner notes or or Nirvana or like opening

30:06

the go-go's and Newsweek's talking about you and

30:08

it's just like you

30:10

were a DIY

30:12

metal church record to don't forget that that's

30:14

on the list of questions. Believe me. I

30:17

asked Allison about it already when she was

30:19

on Well,

30:21

that's like and that's a direct connection to

30:23

the history right because that's prelude or lewd

30:25

is Metal church post lewd

30:27

I guess right? So it goes right

30:29

back to the history of punk with metal church as

30:32

well so, I don't know it's just a It

30:35

must have been a very fraught period and I know from

30:37

reading it It was a fairly fraught period to exist in

30:39

but it's also from a historical perspective

30:42

Just a amazing way to kind of view what

30:45

was happening through Bikini

30:47

kill and just how threatened people were

30:49

by it like At

30:51

the same time how much people immediately got

30:54

it and embraced it and were like this

30:56

bands important but then just like you're

30:58

saying like people that just

31:00

couldn't compute how upsetting it was and

31:02

how riot girl at a certain point

31:04

became a Four-letter word

31:06

in a bad way to some people because they were

31:09

just like no, it's right girl

31:11

Like all this baggage they were sticking on this thing.

31:13

But it's Yeah, anyway,

31:15

I'm just pontificating now. Yeah, I I

31:19

Love it. I Love

31:21

it I mean I just haven't heard very many

31:23

people's reactions to the book and the things Just

31:26

hearing the things that it brought up for you

31:28

is really interesting to me because I'm just

31:30

interested in people's In

31:34

what different people the same way

31:36

you were just saying like oh, you know We were

31:38

in like Newsweek, but we were also you know

31:41

in the light rancid liner notes

31:43

and you know like Yeah,

31:47

yeah, we were on an evolution compilation

31:49

and you know, like all these different

31:51

things were on an Alpong compilation we

31:53

were just in a lot of of

31:57

different places and I feel like When

32:00

I wrote the book, I didn't think anything at all about who's

32:02

going to read this. I just wrote it. I just wrote it

32:05

because I had to write it. I

32:08

wish I was lying and that I actually had a

32:10

strategic lens,

32:13

but I was really like, I'm going to write

32:15

everything down and then I'm going to strategically edit

32:17

it. But I just wrote everything.

32:20

And even when I was editing, I

32:22

just couldn't have an audience member in

32:24

mind. I just couldn't. And

32:27

so I'm hoping that

32:29

it's something, I feel like there's

32:32

the me that's an insider baseball

32:34

punk that is not as much

32:36

as Toby, never as much as Toby.

32:38

Toby's on another level. Toby is on

32:41

some other egg punk versus,

32:43

I don't even know what she's talking about half the time.

32:46

So sometimes I'm like, will you explain the difference

32:48

between this and this? Just

32:50

because it's really fun

32:53

to watch her say

32:55

the whole thing. Even if I'm not super interested

32:57

in it, her explanations

32:59

of things are really entertaining.

33:03

And I know I shouldn't use her for entertainment, but she's

33:05

so much better than TV. And

33:08

she knows so much. Like it's it's

33:10

really like she could run

33:12

some kind of school or something. But

33:15

I do have a certain love

33:18

of like music, like all kinds of

33:21

music. Like, you know, I talk about Tracy Chapman

33:23

in the book. I talk about Janet Jackson.

33:25

Like, you know, I wasn't just listening

33:28

to punk ever. Like I was I

33:30

a lot of times I stopped with the mainstream for

33:33

a really long time. And so I didn't even know

33:35

like people would I was like, yeah, I sort of

33:37

am aware of a lot of this more stuff, but

33:39

I don't really have an opinion. Like, you

33:41

know what I mean? Like, I wasn't really paying attention to mainstream

33:44

television or me. I wasn't because I was in

33:46

a cult. I was in a cult. All

33:49

my friends, you know, there's a lot of people for

33:52

I'm 55. So people my

33:54

age, there's a lot of people who grew up in cults. I've

33:56

met like four or five people who have grown up in cults.

33:59

And. They don't know

34:01

what HR profit stuff is,

34:04

or a bunch of the Sid and Marty

34:06

prospers, or even 3's company. I'll

34:08

be like, oh, 3's company,

34:11

Jack and Chrissy, or whatever. And they have no

34:13

clue what I'm talking about because they were on

34:15

a call. And I think

34:17

about this period from probably 1989 to

34:19

1999, where I just wasn't paying attention

34:21

to mainstream culture. I

34:28

still listened to, you know,

34:31

like Whitney Houston, like, and I still always

34:33

listened to George Michael, because I just love

34:35

him. And I was never

34:38

like, I can't listen to this because I'm,

34:40

you know, punk, but it was like, I wasn't

34:42

really paying attention to the mainstream mainstream. I had

34:44

a couple artists I like that are

34:46

more mainstream, but those are sort of

34:48

my like, I wasn't in punk-static cult. I don't want to

34:50

say that, but... No, it is 100%. There's

34:53

part of it that's like, especially, you

34:56

know, Olympia is a very particular place,

34:58

and also GC, and

35:02

there is like dogma and like

35:04

all this stuff. And once

35:06

I left, I was like, I did kind of

35:08

feel like I was deprogramming myself.

35:11

But I had started that already because I just

35:13

started being like, this punk purity thing is not

35:15

for me. It's starting to seem

35:18

really binary. It's starting to seem really

35:20

like, this is what you need

35:22

to be a good punk, and this means...

35:24

And the goalposts are always changing. You

35:27

know, and especially for people who say, hey, I'm

35:29

a feminist, or I care about the state of

35:31

the world, I want to, you know, it's

35:33

like the goalposts will really change. You

35:36

know, and if people were mad that

35:38

we were getting attention, even if the

35:41

attention was, you guys suck, you can't

35:43

sing, you can't write, you know,

35:45

you can't play guitar, like your band

35:47

is terrible, even if that was

35:49

a press, and you're ugly, and you're a

35:51

stripper, and you've been raped, and like nothing

35:54

about the music, nothing about the songwriting, nothing

35:56

about like charisma on stage, none of that.

35:58

Just like, you know, guys are a

36:00

piece of shit and then people

36:02

in our community are like we're

36:05

really mad that you're getting so much

36:07

attention and I'm like seriously you want

36:09

this like this attention is really bad

36:11

like flipside reviewed

36:13

our show and just wrote fuck you

36:15

11 times like you that's the kind

36:18

of review that you're like jealous that

36:20

we got and you didn't I think you're

36:22

exactly right and I think the it is

36:24

a cult and the

36:27

religion we are we G programmers

36:30

well I feel like it's everything's

36:32

a cult at a certain point right like

36:35

you know I got I got a friend

36:37

who's found a bunch of success

36:39

in wrestling and now he's gone in transcendental meditation

36:41

and I heard him doing his indoctrination call or

36:43

the call where they get you into it and

36:46

I'm like it sounds a lot like a cult

36:49

kind of you know not to judge anyone because I think

36:51

we all need something right like

36:53

I needed punk and I needed

36:55

to feel that like

36:58

you're saying that family void with these

37:00

people on stage and this I

37:02

needed these people not to give me a moral

37:05

compass because I knew what was right and wrong

37:07

but I needed people to to validate these feelings

37:09

that went against what my peers were saying at

37:11

the time okay but then that's

37:13

the same way that the people that do

37:15

hold stake in these cults and the individual

37:17

sex of these cults they

37:20

have a vested interest in defining punk

37:22

by their version because you

37:24

got to give your tithing to them by buying

37:26

their t-shirts by going to their shows by buying

37:28

their CDs so and

37:30

and I don't want to beat up on him because he is like a

37:33

god to me in the same way you kind of talk about him glowingly

37:35

but like there's a part in the book where Ian comes

37:38

to you and and starts kind

37:40

of in a concerned way

37:42

but still like talking to you about being a

37:44

stripper and like punk and stripper

37:46

it's like look

37:48

at the origins of punk rock there were

37:51

strippers at the first punk rock shows this

37:53

stripping is like sex work in this culture

37:55

Dede was a sex worker like it's not

37:58

who's to say what is and isn't punk like

38:00

we define this thing, but it's

38:02

a cult and like all religious cults, you gotta keep people

38:04

in. I

38:07

think it was more that, I think what people

38:09

had more of an issue with was the feminist

38:11

part of it. Like you

38:13

can't call yourself a feminist and

38:16

be doing that at the same time. Which

38:18

I would always ridiculous to me because it's like,

38:21

you know, if I had access to like a

38:23

job that let me tour and

38:26

like paid me enough to live, that wasn't

38:28

that and wasn't waitressing, because I hate waitressing

38:30

way worse than I hate stripping. But

38:32

like, I would have done it, but

38:35

I did look, I looked, you know, and

38:37

it didn't exist. And so it's like, I

38:39

just think it's like that thing of like creating

38:42

an economic situation where people are forced

38:44

to make choices that are not the

38:46

best, you know, where we

38:48

don't, we have a limited amount of choices

38:50

and we're forced into this thing

38:52

but economic situations to do it.

38:55

And then we're called hypocrites, whereas

38:59

the kids with the trust funds can

39:02

play more benefits for domestic violence shelters

39:04

than I can. Because

39:06

I had to work and I couldn't take off work, you

39:09

know, every weekend to play

39:11

a benefit. And I

39:13

think that, you know, this

39:16

whole thing of, of punk starting,

39:18

I mean, people, we can have this argument, I

39:20

probably shouldn't bring this up on your show of

39:22

all places. But it's like, you know, punk starting,

39:24

starting kind of as, you

39:26

know, a class

39:28

resistance in working class resistance

39:31

in England and

39:33

then becoming with

39:36

hardcore, like the suburban,

39:39

predominantly white suburban rebellion

39:43

against maybe American

39:45

goals or the, you know, the

39:49

American dream or something. And

39:52

then I think that the conversations around

39:55

class, at least in the nineties when

39:57

I was more involved, were

39:59

very lazy. conversations. It was it

40:01

was not about, you

40:03

know, the way that people grow up and

40:05

the way that some people are, are basically

40:08

put in a box in their own minds

40:10

where you're not able to go above this,

40:14

this level. And there was this whole

40:16

downward mobility to it that is actually

40:18

really classist where it's like, there's

40:21

people slumming it in the punk

40:23

scene, you know, and then and

40:26

but in the end, they can go

40:28

back to their rich parents, and,

40:32

you know, go to a fancy rehab, if they

40:34

get addicted to drugs, and there's some people

40:36

who don't have those options. I was middle

40:39

class, you know, and very

40:41

lucky that I always had my needs

40:43

met. But

40:45

I didn't have a safety net. You

40:48

know, I didn't I don't have an inheritance coming.

40:51

And obviously, my situation is very, very different now,

40:53

because I'm married, someone super rich, which

40:56

is really my advice to anyone in

40:58

the arts is just marry someone super rich,

41:01

and solves a lot of problems. But um,

41:03

yeah, I just think that that the

41:06

reading of class got very shallow

41:09

and superficial. And, and

41:13

it actually, you know, I think, included a

41:15

lot of kids who grew up working class

41:17

and working for from being

41:19

involved. Yeah, there's

41:21

a, like, the history of punk

41:23

is written by the people that the

41:25

economic means to produce the culture. And

41:27

the people with the economic means didn't necessarily understand what

41:29

it was like for the people that didn't have the

41:32

economic means. I think, Jerry, and I

41:34

got to talk about poison idea with you at some point

41:36

when he was on the show was talking about Oh, yeah,

41:38

let's check in for your baseball now. We've definitely we're getting

41:40

to that. But yeah, he made sort of the same point

41:42

that you're saying too, is that there's this economic

41:44

side of punk, which was not as

41:47

discussed. I think the advent of the

41:49

cassette tape and the zine, I think level

41:51

the playing field a lot more because

41:55

you could start producing this culture without some

41:57

anyway, insider baseball stuff, the

42:00

Slayer hippie, your friend in

42:02

high school. That's awesome. Oh,

42:05

Steve? Yeah, rest in peace, of course. But

42:07

I can't believe you

42:09

died. You know, one of the first things

42:11

I got, one of the first

42:15

times I went to a punk show was I

42:17

went with Poison Idea. They took me in their

42:19

van, and I was like maybe

42:21

16 when

42:24

they played in Seattle.

42:26

And it was my first time going to Seattle and

42:31

I took pictures of them.

42:33

I still have them. They're in my archives. They're

42:35

all of Steve, because he was my friend. So

42:37

I had just the pictures of Steve. But I

42:39

remember they had a big cross on stage. That

42:42

would make sense. I had a band they were opening for, had

42:44

it. But

42:47

it was kind of my first traveling,

42:49

my first getting a taste of tour. It

42:52

was just driving up for one show. But

42:56

yeah, he was always super nice to me. And I

42:59

sold him weed. But

43:03

I mean, I wasn't super good friends

43:05

with him, where I really totally knew

43:07

him. But there was this other band

43:09

at our school that the most handsome

43:11

boy at the school, like

43:13

the handsome rocker guy. And I can't remember his

43:15

name. I feel like it was Nick, called Mayhem.

43:19

Mayhem from Portland. Yeah,

43:21

okay. And so Mayhem is a

43:23

palindrome kind of, yeah it is.

43:25

It's a palindrome. And their logo,

43:27

you could flip it upside down

43:29

and it would still say, Mayhem

43:31

somehow. Oh, okay. But yeah,

43:34

this super hot guy, who

43:36

was in almost all my classes, quite like this

43:38

great hair he was in that band. And

43:40

so we had a

43:43

band they were opening for, had it.

43:47

But it was kind of my first traveling,

43:49

my first getting a taste of tour. And

43:52

it was just driving up for one show.

43:56

But yeah, he was always super nice to me.

43:58

And I sold him weed and... But

44:03

I mean, I didn't I wasn't like super

44:05

good friends with him, like where I really

44:07

like totally knew him. But there was this

44:09

other band at our school, they're like the

44:11

most handsome boy at the school, like

44:13

the handsome rocker guy. And now I can't remember his

44:16

name. I feel like it was Nick called Mayhem. Mayhem

44:20

from Portland. Yeah. Okay.

44:22

And so Mayhem is a palindrome

44:24

kind of yet is it's a

44:26

palindrome and their logo, you could

44:28

flip it upside down and it

44:30

would still say Mayhem somehow. Okay.

44:33

Yeah, it's this like super hot guy who was

44:36

in almost all my classes, quite like this great

44:38

hair. He was in that band. And so like

44:40

we had all these high school bands like in

44:42

I went to this one school grant for a

44:45

while and like people were in

44:47

bands at that school and I was like, what the

44:49

hell like I just thought it was all guys but

44:51

it was like pretty cool. Yeah,

44:53

I was like, man, and season of your

44:55

net actual band Steve, he has a good

44:58

drummer. Like I gotta say I he's good

45:00

drummer. And also I think he's

45:02

like, he doesn't really get the credit he deserves

45:04

as like engineer producer because he did he did

45:06

that heat miser record. Neil from heat miser was

45:08

on the show and talked about how Steve

45:11

was like a key factor in their early recording

45:13

stuff. Yeah. And he

45:15

was the person who basically was like, come

45:18

to my show. You're a part of

45:20

this. You know, and

45:22

me and my two girlfriends would go to see

45:24

Poison Idea and then we started seeing like, you know,

45:26

we saw miracle workers, I saw like all

45:28

the incursion to conformity and like, all

45:31

the stuff that happened in Portland was

45:33

very fascinating. I actually had to take

45:35

out a section talking about

45:37

when I started going to reggae, I

45:39

quit going to any punk shows because

45:41

there started being fights first, because

45:43

speed metal came in, right? So

45:46

when speed metal came in, the

45:48

short hair punks and the long hair punks

45:51

who didn't like the long hair dudes didn't

45:53

call themselves punks, they were like, you

45:55

know, rockers or metal started fighting

45:58

for the front row. these

46:00

speed core speed metal shows because

46:02

it was like it was speed core. So

46:06

that started happening where it's like the long hair

46:08

and the short hair guys are fighting but it's

46:10

like still like a bunch of white dudes right

46:12

just like fighting and me and

46:14

my two girlfriends are like the only girls at

46:17

the shows and we're like really like

46:20

you know what I mean like and

46:22

then it's all of the

46:24

white supremacists came into Portland and

46:26

then it was the sharps versus

46:28

the Nazis and the

46:31

Nazi punks and

46:33

that was very prevalent like at my high

46:35

school like everything but

46:38

again while of course

46:40

it was the Nazi punks that I'm vehemently

46:44

against and

46:46

the people who were recruited working

46:49

class dudes from my

46:51

school guys who you

46:53

know there's a big scene of guys

46:55

who are not out who were gay

46:59

who were recruited it's it

47:01

was a thing anyway even

47:04

though I knew like they're the you know

47:06

this is they're the problem and like we

47:08

need to do something I gotta

47:10

say the sharps were dicks too I mean

47:13

because then that I'm glad

47:16

that they're trying to do something but it really

47:18

just felt like it was this macho party where

47:20

it was like we just all want to

47:22

beat each other up it's like oh I came to see a

47:24

band man you know and then

47:26

it just turned me off to shows like

47:29

all to those kind of punk shows all

47:31

together and so I

47:34

just started going to reggae shows and it's been a great

47:36

time because there were so many great reggae bands that came

47:38

to Portland I mean we were like on the circuit

47:40

so for kind of the

47:42

last probably year and

47:44

a half or two years of high school

47:46

that's pretty much what I was into was

47:48

was reggae yeah like I think

47:51

going to Portland I by the time I was

47:53

going there for the first time it was still

47:55

kind of hairy but like you know reading about

47:57

it it's a hard town and they're like I

47:59

said there's a lot of working

48:01

class poor. There was a huge Nazi

48:03

scene that came in from what I've

48:05

read and understood and yeah these shows

48:07

were hairy shows from the sounds

48:09

of it. Yeah and

48:12

I mean and even just like you know bands

48:15

like punk bands who were like spitting on

48:17

you and I was like

48:19

I didn't push my ass to the part of the show

48:21

to get spit on but it was

48:24

a huge education because you

48:26

know then when I was in a band it's

48:29

not like I wanted to act like you know

48:31

Mother Teresa or something but it's like I wanted

48:33

to be welcoming to

48:35

people who weren't typically welcomed into shows.

48:39

I'm not going to be like I want you to

48:41

spend your hard-earned money come to my show and then

48:43

I'm going to prove how punk I am by spitting

48:45

on you. I was like that's what

48:47

spitting on the on

48:49

the three girls who are in the

48:52

room isn't punk dumb ass like

48:54

we're just not ever going to come to

48:56

these shows anymore. That's

48:59

probably the insecurity thing again right like

49:01

I'm going to pick the smaller people in the room and spit

49:03

on them because I know if I spit on that security guard

49:06

I'm probably getting my ass beat. There weren't

49:08

no security guards. No security guards I

49:10

guess. Did

49:13

you ever see the wipers? Oh yeah.

49:15

Oh that must have been amazing. I

49:17

mean I don't remember because I was drunk

49:19

to be perfectly honest then they re-forbed and

49:22

I was older and I dated somebody who

49:24

toured with the wipers but

49:26

you know the thing about how Greg Sage

49:28

started doing uh he

49:31

did sound for wrestling. Well

49:33

I know he did that he played guitar on Beauregard's

49:35

record the wrestlers record but no he did sound at

49:37

wrestling events. I mean this is

49:40

the legend I heard that he

49:42

like you know miked the mats at

49:44

wrestling matches in Portland. You know how they

49:46

make that like loud thud it's because the

49:48

the I mean now they

49:50

probably push a button to make the noise

49:52

like he was doing the sound and I always

49:54

thought that was really funny. I was like I wonder all

49:57

that if I could ever get to interview him. Oh

49:59

yeah. Tempeh, I'm

50:01

sure Toby talked about it. We met him in Tempeh, Arizona on

50:04

tour one time and kind

50:06

of forced ourselves on him, but he's

50:09

very quiet. I actually don't think she

50:11

ever told me that because yeah,

50:13

like talk about a fascinating person and an

50:16

amazing amazing band, like a

50:18

band that you hear and it's like, wow, this is

50:20

truly timeless. Yeah,

50:23

and just yeah something

50:26

you could listen to over and over and never get sick of. Well,

50:29

you mentioned the Miracle Workers who

50:31

are now I guess in the Oregon Music Hall of

50:33

Fame I heard recently. That's

50:36

great. As a band. Didn't they turn to

50:38

some kind of different music or something? Maybe.

50:41

I thought they were a Garage Rock band the whole way through. I

50:45

think they might have changed to a different style of

50:47

music at some point, but anyway, I have to look

50:49

it up. But yeah, I mean, I loved it. And

50:51

that was really my introduction to Garage

50:54

Rock, which I'm still like, I really

50:56

love like, you know, surf

50:59

guitar, garage rock. I mean, you

51:04

hear that. I used to see Theater of Sheep.

51:06

They were like my favorite band. We

51:08

would follow them around. And

51:10

I went to school with one of the Loomis Brothers.

51:16

It was Andrew's the one from Dead

51:19

Moon, right? Matt, his younger brother went to my

51:21

school. And everybody's like, he looks

51:23

just like Mick Jagger. Well,

51:26

because like, I guess you, I had

51:28

you seen the Miracle Workers before you heard that comp, you talk

51:30

about the Battle of the Garages that

51:32

plan nine records comp. Oh,

51:34

yeah, I'd seen them before. I mean, they were

51:37

like our band that we went to every single

51:39

show. And it was like, follow them or, you

51:41

know, like, whatever. That calm

51:44

the thing about Theater of Sheep and, and,

51:48

and them is that they they hung out

51:50

downtown like the Miracle Workers didn't hang out.

51:53

Like, Roz, we would have Roz,

51:55

he was this lead singer of Theater of Sheep

51:57

and we would have Roz sightings. So like, you

51:59

know, We were like, you know, kind of new

52:01

waiver theater girls, and we would like, you

52:03

know, be like, I heard Roz is at

52:06

the Metro Cafe. It was like, everyone like runs

52:08

to the Metro Cafe. And there's like no internet

52:11

or phones or anything. So it's just like, I

52:13

just saw him at the Galleria. And it's like, you know,

52:15

then we'd like run over

52:18

somewhere like, but

52:20

he hung out with Andrew Loomis and

52:22

then and Matt Loomis sometimes and Matt

52:24

Loomis went to my school. So I

52:26

was like, Dead

52:29

Moon is another band that there's like

52:31

so many great bands in that area. Like you

52:34

go digging into it, like, Girl Trouble. Oh,

52:36

Girl Trouble is incredible. And like, and

52:40

Mad Violet's they're not from there,

52:42

right? They're from some New York. I don't know. I

52:44

don't know anything about them. I just had that

52:46

one song on the record called Facilisibe and the

52:49

singer's name is Wendy Wild.

52:51

Yeah. I think

52:53

they have like, I

52:56

think I'm pretty sure they're from New York because I was

52:58

researching that comp afterwards because I bought

53:00

that comp because the out numbered are

53:02

on it. Who is

53:04

John from Pan's Divisions First Band?

53:07

I didn't know that. Yeah, they're

53:09

super awesome too. They're like, I

53:12

forget what the song is on it. It's on the B

53:14

side, I think. But when you when you mentioned in the

53:16

book, I'm like, I have that compilation and when and dug

53:18

it out because It's the first time I ever heard 125. That's

53:21

on 125. Oh, yeah, there's like,

53:23

and there's impossible Michigan. I

53:25

can't remember all the bands on it. It's a really cool

53:28

Power Pop Garage comp. But

53:30

so someone gave

53:32

me that I didn't like, I

53:34

had no records. And I

53:37

just had that and I just played it over and

53:39

over and over and over again. But then when I

53:41

went, I moved to Richmond, Virginia at a certain point

53:43

and had a bad time

53:46

working at a McDonald's doing

53:48

the drive through, but it was right by the

53:50

McDonald's I worked out was right by a record

53:52

store called Plan 9. Oh,

53:55

that's so fair, I think. Yeah, so

53:57

I was like, maybe this is where the

53:59

records came. from, you know what I mean?

54:01

Like I was it's like a little kid like,

54:03

you know, it's a Hershey bar factory. Like, I

54:06

ran over there and I

54:08

started just hanging out there to meet

54:11

people and I did meet some guys who were

54:13

into reggae that I just I would like smoke

54:15

pot with them in my car or in their

54:17

car because I didn't have a car after after

54:19

my shifts at McDonald's. But I just

54:22

you know, back in the day, we

54:24

would meet people at record stores like

54:26

you know, you would go to a

54:28

record store I was in Richmond Virginia, I

54:31

didn't know anybody but my sister who again

54:33

listened to Leonard Skinner and Molly hatchet. She

54:35

had a framed picture of Alabama on her

54:37

wall. So I

54:39

was like, I

54:42

don't know how I'm gonna

54:45

get through the summer with

54:47

my terrible fast food job

54:50

without knowing anybody who's into music

54:52

or, you know,

54:54

to hang out with. And so I hung out

54:56

at the record store and waited for people to come

54:58

in and then like, sidle up next time and would

55:00

like say something like, which, which, what do you buy?

55:02

What do you like? What's that record? You know what

55:05

I mean? Like, and then you end

55:07

up smoking weed with them in there, you know, shirako.

55:10

And that's like, I think the thing that's kind of been lost, like

55:12

you're talking about earlier, like the transition of

55:15

like the streaming era and the loss of physical

55:17

media, is that these spaces where you'd have to

55:19

go and yes, surrender money to

55:21

buy something, but, but they were like meeting

55:23

up places where you met like minded people

55:25

be a bookstore, a video store or record

55:28

stores, of course. Yeah,

55:30

I mean, it's the

55:33

acceptable place for women to stalk people. But,

55:38

you know, like, I think

55:40

the thing now that's really interesting about like

55:42

zines coming back and about people having a

55:45

nostalgia for something they never had, which is

55:47

fascinating on its own. And like, we could

55:49

probably get together and write a book about

55:51

it. But like, I

55:54

feel like there's

55:56

nostalgia for like the handcrafted for

55:58

like the femoral. for

56:01

something that's not going to live on the web

56:03

forever, but like be in your hands. And so

56:05

people are like, oh, you know, making zines or,

56:08

um, you

56:10

know, now people want one

56:12

of a kind objects because

56:15

everything's mass marketed. Everything's

56:18

easy to find. And so if you can find

56:20

like the band that only has two followers, how

56:22

cool are you? Like

56:24

the great band that has two followers. Like

56:28

that's what we're looking for now. It's like, we used to

56:30

go to thrift stores and like, I found a fucking

56:33

all over print Devo shirt in a

56:35

thrift store in the nineties. It

56:38

was well color. I don't know who

56:40

the hell made this. It was the

56:42

potato with the circle thing around it

56:45

with Devo and it was all over

56:47

print front and back on the sleeves.

56:49

And I gave it to Bill and I know I have

56:51

to find a picture of him wearing it because I was,

56:53

it was his size. And it was like, I was like,

56:55

you have to wear this. And

56:58

it was the best thrift store find, but

57:00

it's like what feeling now people go to

57:02

thrift stores and they buy everything and then

57:04

they sell it online. So what's

57:07

the, what's

57:09

the thing now for people to

57:11

have that feels like a special moment

57:14

for them that they dug through a crate

57:16

of records and found, you know,

57:19

this like book or tea record

57:21

that they'd wanted that they, you know, or whatever

57:24

they were looking for. And like

57:26

you have this moment and it's not

57:28

even, yeah, sure. There's capitalism surrendering

57:30

of money, as you said, which

57:33

I love happening, but

57:35

it's still this moment of like, this

57:37

is something that's going to bring me joy beyond

57:40

this moment of coaches. You know what I

57:42

mean? Like, I'm going to wear

57:44

this awesome Devo shirt, you know, one of the

57:46

best bands ever. I'm into like,

57:48

you know, where this like one of a kind crazy

57:50

thing I found it at a thrift store and feel

57:53

like, you know, I dug,

57:55

I dug for, I dug around for

57:57

this. For

58:00

me, part of the big thing about why I started

58:02

collecting records and zines is because

58:04

there's that the idea

58:07

of shaking hands with the creator that you kind

58:09

of get through punk because when

58:11

you bought a Discord 7-inch,

58:13

you knew they folded it themselves, the early

58:15

ones. I mean, you knew they were

58:18

folding those themselves, so it's kind of like it

58:20

put you in the history in a way. And

58:22

I think, like you're saying, I think people just

58:24

want to feel that sense of

58:26

being somewhere being part of something. Like, yeah, just...

58:30

I feel like it's like this scrambling for

58:33

authenticity, which is like really

58:35

complicated because I don't really believe in authenticity. But

58:37

you know what I mean? It's

58:41

like, I think however

58:43

it's going to play out is really interesting. I

58:46

think it's, you know, you brought up zines there

58:48

and now we live in this era where the zines are appreciated

58:51

and there's like an aesthetic zine resurgence and all this

58:53

sort of thing. I remember being in like

58:56

second year university and in a

58:59

class and they started

59:01

talking about girl

59:03

germs and riot girl and talking

59:05

about these zines and talking about

59:07

how this is like acceptable academic

59:09

sources because these are primary

59:11

sources of lived experience of people and

59:13

we could cite them in academic essays

59:15

and bring zines into it and just

59:17

thinking like, well, like shift.

59:19

And there's that part in the book where you talk and I want

59:21

to spoil everything in the book, but like I won't go into too

59:24

much detail, but like there's a part in the book where you

59:26

were Toby's ass to drama Nirvana and

59:29

you're like, she passed it up to

59:31

be an ephemeris punk band. But like, you

59:33

know, she kind of passed it up also to change the world

59:35

in a way to like Nirvana changed

59:37

rock and roll and huge impact. My

59:39

kids love them and everything. But

59:43

like they're not allowing me to have

59:45

my zines cited in academic

59:47

classes in university. Yeah.

59:51

I mean, thank you. I

59:55

love the ripples and I love the fact that

59:58

like you go to high school with. one

1:00:00

of the people that runs Simple Machine Records and

1:00:02

like you broke down. I went to junior

1:00:05

high Austin because I went to junior high with

1:00:07

Jenny Toomey from Tsunami and Simple Machines and

1:00:09

she beat me out for the part of Dorothy in

1:00:11

Wizard of Oz. And

1:00:14

they wanted me to play a munchkin and

1:00:16

I politely declined. And

1:00:21

I love that I put this, I

1:00:24

put this scene of her in the book that

1:00:26

is something I will never ever forget. But

1:00:29

it was so funny when I found out

1:00:31

Toby was, your friends with Jenny Toomey? I

1:00:34

wanted to junior high with her because like

1:00:36

when the Olympia DC thing started happening, Maryland

1:00:39

and DC are basically like scrunched

1:00:42

up right next to each other. So

1:00:44

a lot of those

1:00:46

people, like

1:00:49

Christina Bellott, I went to junior high with Christina

1:00:51

Bellott, or

1:00:53

Bellottet as

1:00:55

some people say, but from Slant Six and

1:00:57

Autoclave and Casual Dots.

1:01:00

And I mean she's one of my all time

1:01:02

favorite singers. Like she

1:01:04

is so great and such

1:01:07

a good guitar player, such a great songwriter.

1:01:09

We're like the opposite in terms

1:01:11

of what kind of people we are, but

1:01:14

I absolutely adore her and

1:01:16

I adore her work. But

1:01:18

it was so funny. I ended up being roommates. I'm

1:01:20

like, you seem really familiar. And she's like, we want

1:01:22

to junior high together. And I was like, oh, because

1:01:25

she was a year younger than me. So like, I

1:01:27

mean, younger kids can't

1:01:29

pay attention to the younger kids. She was very

1:01:31

quiet. I was very like feathered

1:01:33

hair, slut, like, you know, she

1:01:37

like, I think was also in a band

1:01:39

with my friend Amy Dumas,

1:01:42

who is professional wrestler, Lita. Oh, wow. Yeah.

1:01:48

Wrestling Hall of Famer, who was a hardcore

1:01:50

kid, DC hardcore kid. Her

1:01:54

and Adam lived together from Jawbreaker now to

1:01:56

really kind of like bring the whole world

1:01:58

together in this conversation. It's such a

1:02:00

small world that we all live in this weird

1:02:03

religious cult called punk. I

1:02:05

know Oh,

1:02:07

i'm running out of time Oh you

1:02:09

are you gotta go because then we have what's our what's our

1:02:11

slide. It was like 10 30 to Yeah,

1:02:14

whenever you gotta go. I can give you 15

1:02:16

more but sure i'll wrap up. I got I

1:02:19

will go to lightning round of Uh,

1:02:21

is there so many questions? I know I feel like me

1:02:23

you sam from

1:02:27

born against from the public project booby

1:02:32

Um jail like i'm just thinking of all these

1:02:34

people who we should hang out with my friend

1:02:36

james sooner I gotta reach

1:02:38

out to james about coming on the podcast. Yeah, i'm

1:02:40

i'm i'm halfway through it and

1:02:42

like absolutely Really digging

1:02:44

this and I also wanted to hold this

1:02:46

up really quick because we're talking about fanzines

1:02:49

and uh My friend ossato put

1:02:51

this out and it's like all of the collected

1:02:55

fanzines of shop and seamstress um

1:02:59

and it's gorgeous

1:03:01

in dellson and it's

1:03:03

one of the Only times

1:03:05

i've seen somebody do a compilation of zines

1:03:07

and change it into a book and be

1:03:10

really specific specific and strategic about it I

1:03:13

was like that's part of the thing is that what happens

1:03:15

when people are like I want to put your zines in

1:03:17

a book and We feel like

1:03:19

I feel like bikini kill zines are of a

1:03:21

certain place in time And a lot of them

1:03:23

aren't relevant anymore because I don't agree with a

1:03:25

lot of ideas that I espouse them obviously I

1:03:28

still care about feminism, but I think the way

1:03:30

I went about things was often Really

1:03:33

super from a white middle class perspective

1:03:37

and um, I don't necessarily agree with a lot

1:03:39

of it, so Do

1:03:41

I want that immortalized in a book? Not

1:03:43

really. I like that they existed and

1:03:45

that you know we can People

1:03:48

can put you know one thing out of

1:03:50

it that we approve of in their academic

1:03:53

book But I feel like ossa did

1:03:55

such a great job at collecting

1:03:57

her stuff and putting some new material in

1:03:59

it and making

1:04:01

it something that's less ephemeral and more

1:04:04

forever. I think mentioning

1:04:06

when people are able to do that successfully is

1:04:08

important for other zine writers to be able to

1:04:10

check it out and be like, do I want

1:04:12

to take my zine collection and make it into

1:04:14

a book or not? I

1:04:16

find a lot of people don't that I've talked

1:04:18

to. And I think it's because most people are

1:04:20

doing them when they're younger and they're still figuring stuff

1:04:22

out. But I think that's what makes them so important.

1:04:26

There's a part in the book where you talk about Toby mentioning

1:04:28

the mistake left on the Rights of Spring record. And

1:04:31

I feel like that's what the imperfection of the

1:04:34

zine is what makes

1:04:36

them a human form of communication and makes

1:04:39

them real. And the fact that people

1:04:41

can evolve through these zines because you're like figuring

1:04:43

stuff out in real time. And it's I think

1:04:47

that's why there's part of the reason that you can

1:04:49

do that or that I could do that was

1:04:51

because it was I knew it was ephemeral. I

1:04:53

knew it wasn't going to follow me throughout

1:04:56

my whole life. I could just print 100 copies,

1:04:58

sell them and be done with it or more

1:05:00

and then be done with

1:05:03

it. And then

1:05:06

the computer came and people started photographing pages

1:05:08

of the zines and putting it on the

1:05:11

computer on the internet where it lives forever.

1:05:13

And it's not dated. And so

1:05:15

people sometimes will think like I wrote

1:05:18

this one Riot Girl manifesto yesterday. You

1:05:20

know what I mean? Or like a couple of years ago.

1:05:22

And it's like, no, that was written like 30 years ago,

1:05:24

but they're not dated. And so

1:05:27

that's like a it's an interesting

1:05:29

combination of how to something that was

1:05:31

once. Much that I still

1:05:34

listen to music made by teenagers like every

1:05:36

day. Like I know me too. So

1:05:38

it's such a weird thing. One

1:05:42

of my favorite parts in the book is when Tim Mack

1:05:45

from Halo of Flies comes out

1:05:47

and records you and just for

1:05:51

the Viva Knievel seven inches fucking underrated.

1:05:53

That's an amazing record. When

1:05:55

and I just the way you

1:05:57

describe it and the experience of it just made it.

1:06:00

Yeah, I know. It's just such a cool story. I

1:06:02

love that band, Halo Flies. Yeah,

1:06:04

I mean, what a weird thing because

1:06:06

like, I don't think anybody would associate,

1:06:10

you know, Halo Flies and Bikini Kill

1:06:12

or like my voice or anything

1:06:14

like that. And

1:06:17

that really was where this moment sort of like the Steve

1:06:19

Hanford thing. It's like where somebody

1:06:21

who was kind of like in

1:06:24

the underground community doing stuff, making

1:06:27

things happen, a participant said,

1:06:30

I like you. Welcome.

1:06:33

You know what I mean? And it's like, when

1:06:35

you're constantly running up

1:06:38

against like kind of doors being slammed in your face

1:06:40

or you being laughed at, you cling

1:06:42

to those moments like life rafts. Like, you

1:06:44

know, I'd be like, well, fucking the guy

1:06:46

from Halo Flies like my voice. So fuck

1:06:48

you. You know, and it's like,

1:06:50

it probably didn't mean shit to him. He probably doesn't even

1:06:52

remember he did it. He's probably going to be like, did

1:06:54

I do that? Like, but it

1:06:56

meant so much to me. It

1:06:58

meant so and then with the

1:07:00

experience that happened right after that, which let's

1:07:02

not talk about that,

1:07:06

it really, it helped

1:07:08

me. I don't know if I if there

1:07:11

are these moments that you're like, I don't you string them together.

1:07:13

And you're like, these are the things that kept me going through

1:07:15

the years. And they probably meant nothing

1:07:17

to the person. And I think that's

1:07:19

part of the thing that I wanted to

1:07:21

say in the book is that like giving

1:07:24

each other permission. And and while we're still

1:07:26

alive on this earth, saying,

1:07:29

not just with our words, but with

1:07:31

our actions, welcome, or, hey,

1:07:33

let me help you out with that when you

1:07:35

can, when you have the ability to be like,

1:07:37

you know, an older person who's

1:07:40

a mentor who like loves someone's music is like, hey,

1:07:42

can I work for a single for you? Could I

1:07:44

you know what I mean? Like, you

1:07:46

want to crash at my house, like Sonic Youth let us

1:07:48

crash at their place in New York. And that was huge.

1:07:51

Bikini Co was not well loved at that time

1:07:53

period. And so we're it was kind of in

1:07:55

my head, I'd be like, okay, so all you

1:07:57

guys hate me. But Kim Gordon thinks I'm cool.

1:07:59

So So I'm

1:08:02

okay. And like you were saying earlier,

1:08:04

the beginning of this thing, like the having

1:08:07

your heroes become your peers is

1:08:10

ultimate punk validation because it's not going to be

1:08:12

commercial success. It's not going to be

1:08:15

maybe being appreciated by the scene en

1:08:17

masse, but in your

1:08:19

time at least. But knowing

1:08:21

that there's people that you respected and that inspired you to

1:08:24

make art that turn around and say, no, what you're doing

1:08:26

is fucking awesome. And so that was

1:08:28

just, I can't think of anything more validating. Well,

1:08:30

yeah. And Sonic, you did that for us at

1:08:32

a time where it was just like, hey, hey, hey, hey,

1:08:34

hey. So

1:08:37

it was like really like, you

1:08:39

know, sleeping on

1:08:41

the floor of their apartment meant so

1:08:43

much to me as a

1:08:46

young woman in a band. And

1:08:49

it was probably no big deal for them.

1:08:51

But to me, it was like, you

1:08:54

know, there still is a

1:08:56

community for me. There still is a safe place for

1:08:58

me. There still is people who care, you know. I

1:09:03

honestly could talk to you forever in

1:09:05

a day. If you ever want to

1:09:07

come back on, yeah, the doors always

1:09:09

open. But

1:09:11

before I go, like coming back now, like having

1:09:13

that tumultuous run in

1:09:15

the beginning with a band and having to carve

1:09:18

these paths in a lot of ways, like coming

1:09:21

back now, like on this last couple

1:09:23

of tours, I

1:09:26

was wondering your perspective on how things have changed.

1:09:28

Like do you, because it really does feel like

1:09:33

the adulation, like the palpable adulation was something I

1:09:36

don't think I've ever experienced at another show like

1:09:38

I did at your show here not too

1:09:40

long ago. Yeah.

1:09:44

I mean, I don't

1:09:46

know. It's great. I mean, I just feel like

1:09:48

we're being treated normal, like how we should have been treated in

1:09:50

the beginning. You know, like

1:09:53

we're making decent money. We have good people that

1:09:55

we're working with so that I'm not having

1:09:57

to deal with sound men

1:09:59

refusing. to plug in my monitor if I don't

1:10:01

tell them if I'm single or married, you know, like

1:10:03

I'm it's just like, it's

1:10:06

just nice to be treated normal and

1:10:08

be like, Oh, I'm a musician and I show

1:10:10

up and I do my soundcheck. And I have

1:10:12

a tour manager who I enjoy being around

1:10:14

and he treats us

1:10:17

so respectfully and takes care of us and

1:10:19

one of the best people in the business, Ben,

1:10:21

yeah, Ben hard skin, one of the best out

1:10:24

there. Yeah, great, great guy,

1:10:26

great stories. Totally

1:10:29

human being so lucky to work with him. And so

1:10:31

it's like, you know, and our,

1:10:35

you know, Tobin, like we just, we work with

1:10:37

great people and we always have

1:10:39

great sound people and monitor people. And like, that's

1:10:41

the stuff we couldn't afford back then. And I

1:10:44

guess if I leave you with one idea, because

1:10:46

you had said like, Oh, if there's anything you

1:10:48

forgot to say, is that

1:10:52

one of the things that disturbs

1:10:54

me or keeps

1:10:56

me up at night is when I think about

1:10:58

young bands now, and

1:11:00

I think about how, you know,

1:11:02

it's harder now to make money

1:11:04

than it was even then. And

1:11:07

it's really based on touring and COVID

1:11:09

is not gone. So

1:11:11

people can end up losing a lot of money on a

1:11:13

tour if they get sick, especially

1:11:16

bands that aren't as big as what Bikini

1:11:18

Kill is now. Bands

1:11:24

who are forging new paths

1:11:27

in punk rock and in music in general,

1:11:29

are the ones who really need a crew.

1:11:32

They need a sound

1:11:34

person who isn't

1:11:36

going to hate

1:11:40

them because

1:11:43

of their race or

1:11:47

their gender presentation or you know,

1:11:50

they're not going to, if you're

1:11:52

a young trans kid in a

1:11:54

band, you can't have a sound

1:11:56

person who hates trans people and

1:11:59

wants to sabotage your show controlling

1:12:02

your voice. Like,

1:12:04

that's what's terrifying to me is to

1:12:06

have someone who hates you just because

1:12:08

of who you are. And

1:12:12

again, this goes for whether it's

1:12:15

racial or because you're trans

1:12:17

or because, you know, you're a woman or,

1:12:19

you know, a trans woman or a trans

1:12:21

man or whatever. It's like, there are people

1:12:23

who will, there are straight white cisgender men

1:12:26

who are out there in the world who

1:12:28

will hate you just because of who you

1:12:30

are. And they will sabotage your show

1:12:32

by turning your vocals down so you throw your voice

1:12:34

out and then you miss the next show. And

1:12:37

having someone like that literally

1:12:39

controlling your voice, the

1:12:42

fact that you have come all the way to this

1:12:44

place to share your

1:12:47

ideas with a group of people

1:12:49

and then you have a straight white

1:12:51

cisgender man who hates you, turning you

1:12:53

up and down at their will is

1:12:56

a problem. It's a psychological problem

1:12:58

in the mind of a singer. And

1:13:01

it's also just a like economic

1:13:03

problem. And so like, I really

1:13:05

want to be like, I'm

1:13:07

thinking of starting a grant program or something

1:13:09

like that, where it's like to give grants

1:13:12

to young bands to get their own sound

1:13:14

people. There's

1:13:16

so much I want to talk to you about. And I

1:13:18

can't keep you on there. Absolutely.

1:13:20

And the scary bands that need it the most

1:13:24

can't afford it. When

1:13:26

you're just starting out and you're actually

1:13:29

saying stuff that is against the status

1:13:31

quo or just being who you are

1:13:33

is considered being against the status quo.

1:13:36

It's like you're the exact people who

1:13:38

are not going to make money, who are going to

1:13:40

be kept camped down, and you're not going to be

1:13:42

able to have that stuff. And I can't tell you

1:13:44

how much having our own sound person has changed my

1:13:46

life. So I want other bands

1:13:48

to have that, especially young bands, because that's the

1:13:50

only way things are going to grow and that

1:13:53

these bands are going to be able to develop

1:13:55

and be making their 12th record

1:13:57

where we get to see their growth from the

1:13:59

very beginning. So, um,

1:14:01

yeah. Well, and when you

1:14:03

start the program or anytime you want to come back

1:14:05

and talk about any of it, the store is always

1:14:07

open to you. Yeah. I

1:14:09

have to figure out what the application process is. It's

1:14:11

like, then I'm a gatekeeper, you know, but whatever.

1:14:19

Thank you, Kathleen, for coming on the

1:14:21

show. And you're right there. Kathleen will

1:14:23

be back for part two. Hopefully

1:14:26

a split. Hopefully we get more,

1:14:28

uh, another chance to talk cause I got like three

1:14:32

more sheets worth of questions I didn't get to ask. So,

1:14:35

uh, I pick up rebel girl, my

1:14:37

life as a feminist punk on

1:14:40

Harper Collins out on May 14th,

1:14:43

you can preorder it at your

1:14:45

local bookstore now. And,

1:14:48

uh, there's some,

1:14:51

there's some stuff in this book. I'm,

1:14:53

I'm, uh, powerful stuff, fascinating stuff, stuff

1:14:55

we didn't obviously talk about at all

1:14:57

this podcast that, uh, yeah,

1:15:00

it's well worth your time to pick up this book and read

1:15:02

it speaking of

1:15:04

what with your time on the next

1:15:06

episode of turned into punk, another great conversation with

1:15:08

someone who involved the punk music. It's

1:15:11

a punk rock bowling episode. So you'll hear

1:15:13

whatever I've got planned for that one when

1:15:15

it happens. Uh, that's

1:15:17

it for today's show. Remember, as always

1:15:20

black lives matter, the lies and issues faced

1:15:22

by indigenous peoples all over the world. Matter.

1:15:25

We need to protect trans kids and

1:15:27

help trans people protect themselves and their

1:15:29

rights and stop

1:15:31

hate and violence towards people

1:15:34

of different races, different faiths,

1:15:36

different ethnic ethnicities, different nationalities,

1:15:38

different identities. Because

1:15:40

we're not talking about politics.

1:15:43

It was just basic human rights stuff. Ceasefires

1:15:46

are just basic human rights stuff.

1:15:49

People deserve to be able to live free from

1:15:51

hate and violence. So

1:15:53

there's organizations that

1:15:56

are affecting positive change in your community, get

1:15:58

involved. Donate. your

1:16:00

time, your support in any

1:16:02

way you can and

1:16:06

sign your organ donor card because by the time they come looking

1:16:08

for those things, I mean those organs,

1:16:10

you don't need them anymore. It's

1:16:13

not like that Monty Python sketch that was

1:16:15

horribly ripped off by you can't do that

1:16:17

on television. They

1:16:19

wait till you don't need those organs and

1:16:22

then they can provide real miracles.

1:16:25

I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Not

1:16:28

literally as the operations happening

1:16:30

but the recovery when the miracle kind of happened like

1:16:32

yeah I was there and I saw it so sign

1:16:36

those cards. Try meditating. You

1:16:39

don't have to sign up for anything. You don't

1:16:41

have to you know just lots

1:16:44

of free opportunities to try this thing out and

1:16:46

people have been doing it for centuries and it

1:16:48

works. I'm just one

1:16:51

of the more recent people to stumble upon it and it

1:16:53

worked for me so maybe it'll work for you and then

1:16:57

go out there and make your own punk

1:16:59

culture because anyone can do this shit. Start

1:17:02

a band, start a fanzine, write a book,

1:17:04

write a

1:17:06

movie, write a movie

1:17:08

and put me in it. Oh

1:17:12

man I'm tired. I've had no sleep

1:17:14

this whole week. This is the end of the show. If

1:17:16

you're still listening I'm just gonna ramble. You're

1:17:19

way past the point to

1:17:22

get off this ride so now you just got

1:17:24

to sit here and hear the worn

1:17:28

out old carnival worker controlling

1:17:31

the roller coaster, ramble on.

1:17:35

Anyway I'm really tired so I'm gonna stop

1:17:37

rambling and I'm going to see

1:17:40

you on the next episode. Thank you for listening. Bye.

1:17:48

It's punk rock bowling time that's

1:17:51

right for the 24th year one

1:17:53

of the greatest festivals

1:17:55

on earth in my opinion

1:17:57

returns to downtown Las Vegas.

1:18:00

The weekend of May 25th, 26th and 27th. I

1:18:04

have had some of my greatest times playing this thing

1:18:06

and just hanging out of this thing. You

1:18:08

want to know how much this festival speaks to Turn Out of Punk's

1:18:10

mindset? The headliners are Devo,

1:18:13

Descendants and Madness. Every day

1:18:15

of this festival, the lineup

1:18:17

is stacked with amazing bands

1:18:19

of all types and stripes

1:18:21

of punk and hardcore from

1:18:23

all different eras. From ska

1:18:25

to post-hardcore. We're talking like

1:18:27

Bratmobile to Rockin' the Crypt

1:18:29

to Stiff Little Fingers to

1:18:31

the Cosmic Psychos to Scowls,

1:18:33

to Chat- I just- And

1:18:36

then there's also all these late night after

1:18:38

shows which are happening. And you wouldn't believe

1:18:40

the lineup of these things. From

1:18:43

the zeroes to Agnostic Front and

1:18:45

everything in between. This

1:18:48

festival is out of control

1:18:51

for fans of punk. So I

1:18:53

hope I will see you there. Because this isn't

1:18:55

like some sort of festival you just go to

1:18:57

and the bands are secluded in some sort of

1:18:59

backstage area. Bands and

1:19:01

fans and just punks alike

1:19:04

are all just taking over downtown

1:19:06

Las Vegas. So you turn

1:19:08

around and all of a sudden you're gambling beside John

1:19:11

Doe from X. I don't know

1:19:13

if John Doe gambles, but if you turn around

1:19:15

on the buffet line you'll probably see me. And you better

1:19:17

believe we're going to be talking about punk music. And

1:19:20

because this festival loves this podcast as

1:19:22

much as this podcast loves this festival,

1:19:25

Punk Rock Bowling is bringing you a

1:19:27

series of special episodes. So each and

1:19:29

every week I will have

1:19:31

an episode going up featuring someone

1:19:33

that's playing this festival. And hot

1:19:35

damn are there some good ones

1:19:38

coming. Head over to

1:19:40

punkrockbowling.com and hopefully I see you

1:19:42

in downtown Las Vegas. May

1:19:45

25th, 2015. Hey

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