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0:52

Trust me. Trust

0:55

me. I'm like a smart person. I've

0:57

never lied to you. If

1:00

you think that one person has all the

1:02

answers, don't. Welcome

1:04

to Trust Me, the podcast about

1:07

cults, extreme belief, and manipulation from

1:09

two bad girls who've actually experienced

1:11

it. I'm Lola Blanc. And I'm

1:13

Megan Elizabeth, resident bad girl. That's

1:16

right. Today our guests are Zoe

1:18

and Lillian, survivors of Midwest Academy

1:20

as well as, in Zoe's case,

1:22

Academy at Ivy Ridge, two behavior

1:24

modification facilities for teens from the

1:26

same organization that's the subject of the

1:28

new Netflix series called The Program.

1:30

Cons, cults, and kidnapping. We have

1:32

changed Zoe's name at her request, but

1:35

that's what we're going to call her today.

1:37

We're going to talk to these ladies about

1:39

how these programs are marketed to parents as

1:41

lovely summer camp-style schools that will improve their

1:43

children's behavior problems, and how very wrong that

1:45

turned out to be. The traumatic ways that

1:48

Lillian and Zoe were brought to the first

1:50

programs they went to, and how Zoe was

1:52

immediately thrown into solitary confinement. Oh, it's so

1:54

heartbreaking. They'll tell us about the levels within

1:56

the program that were impossible to climb, the

1:58

level of control, The experience that force

2:01

them to communicate with only their eyes

2:03

and how they were kept from their

2:05

families who themselves were groomed and taught

2:07

to disbelieve anything their children have been.

2:09

What the As women went through his

2:11

harrowing. There is a lot to get

2:13

into this episode and next week we

2:15

will also have part to stay tuned

2:17

for that the for we get into

2:19

with them Meghan can you tell me

2:22

are called the Is thing at this

2:24

week? Absolutely none of the things I

2:26

was. Interested in this week. It's

2:28

really sad. What was the name of

2:30

the guess that we had on to

2:32

as talking to us up a cult

2:34

of meditation? We loved him so much.

2:37

Knit Joseph ah obsessed with him. Anyway,

2:39

I always think about that because meditation

2:41

as something that I enjoy doing a

2:43

now for whatever couple minutes a day

2:45

what have you may be fifteen or

2:48

something but there's these retreats called that

2:50

pass on our. That. I've always

2:52

wanted to go on and there's a new

2:54

podcast I'm not sure how know it as

2:56

but it's called their a tree and it

2:58

just follows a lot of. Suffering.

3:00

That comes after this your tits And of

3:03

course as always a lot of people have

3:05

great experiences. That. It can cause

3:07

a certain sort of psychosis. and

3:10

most beautiful girl twenty two years

3:12

old ended up taking her own

3:14

life after an eleven hour quiet

3:17

meditation session which can break your

3:19

brain. Oh my gosh. As it's

3:21

heartbreaking and it's such a good

3:24

reminder about not everything. Is for everyone.

3:26

and the most extreme version of a thing

3:28

doesn't necessarily mean added value. That can mean

3:30

it's too much. It's too much. I mean

3:32

I don't know what happened in that situation.

3:35

Obviously I would have to look into it.

3:37

Meditation is amazing for so many people. various

3:39

forms of a i like doing mindfulness, but

3:41

you know, like twelve hours or however many

3:44

hours to someone who's already know talking. and

3:46

I've tried to go to these things so

3:48

many that would. Getting a ticket is like

3:50

the hardest thing to do getting a spy

3:53

at ten years ago. I remember it. Being

3:55

a little bit easier. but now it's

3:57

like the hottest ticket in town as

3:59

to get thought these things and wilde

4:01

yeah sometimes I will be spiraling and

4:03

I think I've talked about this a

4:05

little there were like I just will

4:07

be stuck on something and going deeper

4:09

and deeper into the hall and then

4:11

I like to talk to someone about

4:13

anything else like it doesn't even matter

4:15

if it's related to are talking about

4:17

just like have a human interaction and

4:19

I'll be like oh I think I

4:21

was just like to in my own

4:23

brain like I was too deep in

4:25

the recesses of my own brain does.

4:27

So. I mean like and

4:29

that's obviously different thing because meditate

4:32

in other a lack of stimulation

4:34

can actually produce hallucinations and psychosis.

4:36

yet in certain circumstances and I'm

4:38

sure the hope is that he

4:40

would sit there long enough that

4:42

you would transcend that bought yourself

4:45

and. Be. Free from it forever

4:47

and said i three other I get

4:49

it and but I'm I did go

4:51

on a meditation or to once for

4:54

like seven days but we process there

4:56

at the and you know that the

4:58

meditations lessons right Two hours each. Five.

5:01

Times a day we process that and

5:03

between and had conversations and you know,

5:05

fox when we ate and all of

5:08

these things and still when I got

5:10

back. I remember like Haiti

5:12

and map and hearing the

5:14

sound of like five million

5:16

soldier and screaming and side

5:19

of my boss. Is

5:22

it scared me so badly? I think

5:25

it was just like a like you

5:27

heard an actual auditory hallucination. Oh yeah

5:29

yeah. Oh wow. Completely completely. I mean

5:31

that, but that kind of more common

5:33

than people realize and I and I

5:35

think you know a lack of understanding

5:38

about that can lead people to one

5:40

think they're. Crazy or to think that

5:42

their private a disaster essential fake sop.

5:44

Yeah I went straight for trade they

5:47

got but it's not. A brother says

5:49

hi guys I'm the problem of screaming

5:51

children and I like to. Yeah and

5:54

I was like oh I just lost

5:56

my mind but then it at stopped.

5:58

But like that. I guess. Thank

6:01

god I never got into one of these

6:03

things because. I'll add another. get a

6:05

handle it Anyway, I certainly couldn't. What about

6:07

you? What's the closest thing of your week

6:09

you know? I saw a tweet about my

6:12

friend sent me. Do you know who receive

6:14

Burns's from Blues Clues? This is a guess

6:16

that see I'm fantasies and we became friends.

6:18

So luckily I know I have the biggest

6:21

press on hand. It became friends on my

6:23

face like fifteen years ago when I messaged

6:25

him being like oh my gosh, you're not

6:27

dead and now we You know we we've

6:30

been friends for a long time. I don't

6:32

see him very often, but. Because he

6:34

was a New York that been wonderful

6:36

posting these like very wholesome videos. they've

6:38

gone viral on to talk and such

6:41

where he basically doing the blues clues

6:43

stick where he will allow you room

6:45

to talk. I killed a few question

6:47

and then let you answer but it's

6:49

like for depressed millennials basically like he'll

6:52

have been sitting there on the cup

6:54

of coffee in be like how are

6:56

you doing how you feel and then

6:58

has a theater. It's super wholesome, It's

7:00

super sweet people love it but of

7:03

course the internet. Can not ever

7:05

let us have nice things. So

7:07

now there's a person on Twitter

7:09

close by citing it as says

7:11

it's This Strikes you as anything

7:13

apart from deeply unsettling. You are

7:15

highly vulnerable to the influence of

7:18

sociopaths and mail manipulators. Indeed, you

7:20

may be under the auspices of

7:22

one right now. What hobbies About

7:24

Whole he said why are you

7:26

talking about this is just a

7:28

man doing a video that is

7:31

like a commentary on how lonely

7:33

we all. Feel and how we all

7:35

need someone to talk to as really

7:37

not that serious. it's really not that

7:40

deep. This man just like loves his

7:42

dog and lives in the woods like

7:44

leave have a left alone my guys

7:46

the Zebra Very enthusiastic about these videos

7:48

because it's nostalgic and we are all

7:51

lonely. A Speak for yourself. I have

7:53

five million. Screaming children. and if I

7:55

have an affair. section

7:58

of memories of these these shows that made

8:00

us feel seen when we

8:02

were kids. And so it's tapping

8:04

into that, but it just makes

8:06

me think about, it's so important

8:08

to have awareness about manipulation and

8:10

about high control behaviors and groups

8:12

and people. But it's that same

8:14

thing where once language gets out

8:16

there, then people start to use

8:18

and abuse it and not understand

8:20

what they actually mean. A

8:23

video on the internet of a guy looking

8:25

into camera does not mean that person is

8:28

a sociopath or male manipulator, nor that you

8:30

are automatically ready to

8:32

believe in any sociopath or male manipulator.

8:34

This is not science, this is just

8:36

bullshit nonsense from someone who didn't like

8:39

a video, like calm down. Yeah, I

8:41

would join a Blue's Clues cult, but

8:43

this doesn't sound like he's starting one.

8:45

I don't think he's starting one. He's

8:47

not that into people. I

8:50

think he's gonna say that. But

8:53

yeah, anyway, guys, just come on. Kim,

8:55

let's not throw these words around because they start to

8:57

lose meaning and for sure, in general,

8:59

I feel like once we start to overuse words,

9:01

then the actual reason why we need them

9:03

in the first place becomes degraded. And I

9:06

see that happening a lot with cultic language.

9:08

And I just think it's important to be

9:10

careful about that because there are so many

9:12

people who really need that language and really

9:14

need those terms to help them get through

9:16

an actual traumatic experience. You know what I

9:18

mean? Yeah, that's a really good point. I

9:20

haven't really thought of it like that before.

9:23

I mean, when I was coming out of

9:25

an emotionally abusive relationship, I needed that framework

9:27

so badly. But if I were now seeing

9:29

that framework being used to describe every

9:31

random thing that I didn't like, then

9:34

it wouldn't be useful to me at that point. You

9:36

know what I mean? Great, I like that. Speaking

9:38

of emotionally abusive, the things that these girls went

9:40

through is absolutely terrible. So we're just gonna throw

9:43

a trigger warning up at the top, maybe

9:45

come back and listen to the episode on

9:47

another day if it's too much for you,

9:49

but here they are. Let's get into it.

9:55

Hey, Lola. What, Megan? It's time

9:58

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Trust Me. Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Welcome

11:15

Zoe and Lilly to Trust Me. Thank

11:17

you for joining us, ladies. Thank you for

11:19

having us. Thank you. This is such a timely

11:22

episode to be doing right now. There is a

11:24

new Netflix series that's out that is called the

11:26

program cons cults and kidnapping and both of you

11:28

have experience with not only one of the programs

11:31

named in the series but also additional programs. There's

11:33

so much to get into. I just want to

11:35

start at the beginning. Zoe, why don't we start

11:37

with you? Can you tell

11:39

us about life before Ivy Ridge? Why

11:42

did your family think you needed to

11:44

go there? Like what was the situation?

11:47

I guess I wasn't a troubled teen.

11:49

I didn't have a criminal background. I

11:52

didn't have anything like that.

11:54

I was just not going to school,

11:56

skipping school a little bit, sneaking out.

11:58

My parents are pretty strict. I had like

12:00

an eight o'clock curfew. So all my

12:03

friends were out past eight o'clock and I

12:05

was a freshman in high school and I wanted

12:07

to go and party with my friends. So

12:10

there were some nights I just didn't come home.

12:12

Like I just. Like

12:14

a regular rebellious teenager might do sometimes.

12:17

Sure, okay. And I wasn't out doing

12:19

anything crazy. I mean, I was drinking

12:21

a little bit, maybe smoking a little

12:23

bit of weed, but I wasn't doing

12:26

any hardcore drugs, no, nothing. Just being

12:28

a kid. And apparently my

12:30

parents thought that that was just, I

12:33

was out of control and that I

12:35

needed to be back on track. Initially

12:38

they were like, we really just want you to

12:40

catch up on your schoolwork so you can graduate

12:42

on time. So we found

12:44

these places and they really

12:47

didn't tell me anything about it. I was like,

12:49

okay, cool. That sounds nice. You guys do your

12:51

research. And I just kept doing me. One

12:54

night they were like, all right, well, we have

12:56

a family vacation, pack a stop. So my

12:58

brother and I packed our stuff. We got into the car. We

13:01

drive, I fell asleep. And when

13:03

I woke up, my dad was like, he

13:06

knew I smoked cigarettes at the time. And he's like,

13:08

here's a pack of cigarettes. You can smoke as many

13:10

as you can in the next 20 minutes. And

13:14

then you're walking in that door. And I

13:16

looked over and I was like, okay. So

13:19

that's where that started. Wow.

13:22

Family vacation. But no one kidnapped

13:24

you. At least your parents brought you there, but

13:27

still what a surprise. They

13:29

knew that if they were to

13:31

have tried somebody to kidnap me, I either wasn't

13:33

gonna be home when they showed up or I was

13:35

gonna run away before they even got there. I

13:38

had plenty of exit plans of the house. There

13:40

was like, no way I was gonna let that

13:42

happen. They would have to break down my door.

13:44

I had locks on my door. I was ready.

13:46

Really? It's the right time to get me. Wow. And

13:49

so I just thought it was a huge threat

13:51

that my parents were saying just to get

13:53

me to go back to school and get

13:56

my crap together. And was there, were

13:58

your parents religious at all? No,

14:00

this is just like general parents thinking, our

14:02

kid's out of control, we gotta get her

14:04

back on track. Do you have any sense now

14:07

of how these programs are sort of marketed

14:09

to them at the time? Oh yeah, oh

14:11

yeah. It is basically

14:13

just send your kids here, we will

14:16

show them what's, you know, show

14:18

them the way basically, how to

14:20

respect authority and how to be

14:22

better kids and better

14:24

everything. So

14:27

on the surface, it's like this will help

14:29

your teen. Yeah. Does your teen need

14:31

help? Yeah. Completely marketed wrong,

14:33

like they showed, you know, fun outdoor activities

14:36

and us going places and doing

14:38

things and projects and all these

14:41

things and none of that ever.

14:43

Yeah, but the brochure looks tight.

14:46

I'm like, I want to go there before

14:49

I watch the documentary, very misleading. Like

14:52

does it look like camp basically? Yeah. To

14:55

me it's good, yeah. So that was

14:57

Academy at Ivy Ridge? That was actually

14:59

going to Midwest. That was Midwest, okay.

15:02

Yeah. So taking me to Ivy Ridge, my parents

15:04

told me we were just going for a tour and I

15:06

ended up staying

15:09

and not leaving and my parents were like,

15:12

we'll be back in about a week or

15:14

so to get you. I'm like, okay. Immediately

15:16

I freaked out. They threw me an intervention

15:18

right away. I think I only saw maybe

15:21

two staff members the entire time I was there.

15:23

I don't think I saw any girls while I

15:25

was there. And after about

15:27

a week and a half or so, my parents

15:29

came and got me and they're like, okay, well,

15:31

did you learn your lesson? I was like, oh

15:33

yeah, let's go home. Let's do

15:35

this. And they're like, okay, well, you know, we're

15:37

actually going to visit family first and then we'll

15:40

do that. And we never

15:42

went to family. We went straight to Midwest. Wow.

15:45

They tricked you again with another fake trip.

15:48

Wow. Oh my God. That must have

15:50

felt like such a betrayal. Yeah. Apparently

15:53

they had been doing all this research about

15:56

all these schools the whole time. The

15:58

only one that they had ever told me about. It was

16:00

average. Until. We showed up at Mid West

16:02

and they're like, well, I. Think year old

16:05

be better because it was closer to home.

16:07

Okay, I'm gonna ask you more about that

16:09

in a minute, but Lily at me funny,

16:11

Give us your background in history and how

16:13

you ended up in. So I was the

16:15

typical rebellious. Team I ran with

16:18

google. I. The relationship with my

16:20

father the time was not a good relationship. We

16:22

have such the past that wonderful now.

16:25

And I was on us. I was runway

16:27

for about six weeks straight. And

16:29

he end up finding me. On

16:31

the please fix me up. And

16:33

he took me home. And I

16:36

knew something was wrong right away

16:38

because he did rounds me. He

16:40

was yelling at me. And

16:43

so of course you know, as normal teenagers, they're gonna try

16:45

to see what I can get away with. Honors

16:47

like sitting on the phone tag on the computer

16:49

is like yes or stay at odds with yeah,

16:51

something's up. To

16:54

the next day about it's not have caught in

16:56

the morning. I'm civically Transport

16:58

Services com in the middle of

17:01

the night. While. You're sleeping. On

17:03

that is what? Ten o'clock in the morning

17:05

and. I heard someone knock on our front

17:07

door. I was upstairs my Gp room, all

17:10

male down to what was the recently to

17:12

worry about it. And I was on the

17:14

phone with one of my friends and on the computer of on

17:16

my friends and I told my late. To the

17:18

yeah they find kneel down for me to come

17:20

downstairs and eyes were both them that. If

17:22

I want them back and fifteen minutes that something

17:24

was wrong, I would not back. and fifteen minutes.

17:27

I was than can cost and

17:29

placed into a back of a

17:32

car and transported to and sit

17:34

on a Mexico whoa. Whoa.

17:36

And which which one was this one? Just

17:38

as a passer by the sea and pay,

17:41

did you have any sense of where you

17:43

are going or what is less at all?

17:45

I had no idea. Ah man. They.

17:48

Started telling me. When we

17:50

were in the car. That. We

17:52

were going to school. And I was able.

17:54

This is ridiculous. Who needs to be handcuffed to

17:56

go to school now? And.

17:58

then the like oh yeah It's in Mexico.

18:01

It's great." And I was like, no.

18:04

They did not tighten the handcuffs around me

18:06

enough, so I started to slip the

18:08

handcuffs off of my hand

18:11

to them. The male transport person

18:13

reached back behind the seat to where

18:15

I was, shoved the handcuffs back

18:17

down on my wrist, and squeezed them so tight

18:20

I had bruises for two weeks. Obviously,

18:23

the experiences within these programs are traumatizing,

18:25

and we'll get into why that is

18:28

and the things that happened there. It

18:31

seems like every story, just

18:33

the entrance itself is so

18:35

traumatizing because there's this total,

18:37

people don't know what's going

18:39

on. There's confusion. There's strangers

18:41

suddenly having complete control over

18:44

you and no understanding of

18:46

why or... Zoe,

18:48

you did know that you were

18:50

going to a program, or that

18:52

the program existed, but you'd

18:55

been lied to basically about what it was. I did,

18:57

yeah, as a school. My mom just said it was

18:59

a school for girls, and they had

19:01

some of the best schools. They marketed

19:03

it with a really strong

19:06

school background. You can graduate school

19:08

in two years. You can

19:10

get all your high school done in two

19:12

years. My mom's like, that sounds great. She

19:14

could do that, and then move on with

19:17

her life. We can get into the great

19:19

irony of that in a bed because... Yeah.

19:23

What I always found really funny was the advertisement

19:25

for Casa by the Sea. My parents

19:27

actually went down and visited the facility

19:29

before they sent me, and they were

19:31

told also with the advertisements that

19:33

we could go horseback riding on the beach, and

19:35

we were right on the side of the ocean.

19:37

We could look out the windows. We were not

19:40

allowed to look out windows. I never seen a horse while I was

19:42

there. Wow. Yeah.

19:44

They were obsessed with you guys not

19:46

looking out windows to a point that...

19:49

I mean, I get it. They

19:51

weren't allowed to know the time. No. It's

19:55

such psychological torture. Oh,

19:57

yeah. Wow. Zoe,

19:59

can you... talk a little bit more

20:01

about the Ivy Ridge experience. So you

20:03

said that you never saw any other

20:05

girls, like what happened in that two

20:07

weeks? Yeah, it was like about a week and

20:09

a half, almost two weeks. I walked

20:12

into like the main room where

20:14

you walk in like the parent meeting room. My

20:16

parents did not walk in with me. They kind

20:18

of just like dropped me off. There were people

20:21

waiting out front. They locked

20:23

arms, locked me in. They're like, okay, well you're

20:25

gonna... I was like, what the hell? Like, no,

20:28

no. I was like, nope. Tried to turn around

20:30

and they were like, no, your

20:32

parents want you here, you're gonna be here and if you

20:34

can't follow the rules, you're gonna be in there. And I

20:37

was like, alright, just put me in there then. Put me

20:39

in there. So that was an isolation

20:42

room? Yep. Okay, go on. And I don't know

20:44

if it was on the girl side or the

20:46

boy side. I wasn't sure what sides

20:48

were what at that point. I

20:51

just... that's where I was. Immediately.

20:53

Wow. Immediately. Wow.

20:55

And I was freaking out. There was no way they were gonna let

20:57

me out. Like, I was screaming. I

21:00

was scratching. I was pounding. I was yelling.

21:03

There's no windows. It's just a tiny,

21:05

tiny room at the door and you

21:08

got, you know, a little crack under the

21:10

door where you can try to like, like

21:12

Lily said earlier, get fresh air because there's

21:14

no fresh air that circulates through there. Whoa.

21:16

Window where they, you know, peeking on you

21:18

every once in a while. You

21:20

get... First and Ivy Ridge have cameras too. I

21:23

don't believe they had any when I was there. So

21:26

you're in solitary confinement. You've

21:28

been told you're going to school and then

21:30

just suddenly you find yourself in solitary confinement.

21:32

Like you're in prison, which even

21:34

in prison, I think that's wildly unethical and

21:37

should not happen. But especially

21:39

for like a teenager who just

21:41

like stayed out late some nights.

21:43

I mean, it's just so wild.

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zocdoc.com/trust me. I

23:08

just want to know what that was like psychologically. Like you're

23:10

like multiple days in, like what's going through your

23:13

head? Everything. I, everything.

23:15

I'm first I'm claustrophobic. So

23:17

that in itself was just

23:20

terrible. I was having panic attack after panic attack,

23:22

not even knowing that I was having panic attacks

23:24

or what those really were because I had never

23:26

had one like those before. It was a lot

23:28

like just, you know, why, why did my parents

23:31

put me here? I really wasn't, you know, I

23:33

was thinking to myself, okay, was it that was

23:35

I that bad? Like, you know, I was screaming,

23:37

you know, I'll do better. Like, you know, anything

23:39

I could to get out, but they just were

23:42

like, you know, your parents said that they'll be

23:44

back. So you're just going to be here. We're

23:46

not letting you into, you know, into the

23:48

general population, basically, until they come and

23:50

get you. And so

23:52

during that time, like I said, my parents were researching other

23:54

schools. They were actually visiting

23:57

family that was in the New York area.

24:00

And so during their visit with the family,

24:02

then they came in, like I said, picked

24:04

me back up and took me to MWA

24:06

where again, I was thrown into the school

24:09

and like I was there for

24:11

18 months at MWA. 18

24:14

months. Wow. How long, how long

24:16

were you in the solitary confinement for?

24:19

At MWA or at your first experience. Yeah.

24:23

Yeah. That was that Ivy then for like I said,

24:26

a week and a half. And then like

24:28

I said, parents changed. Oh

24:30

my God. I did not realize that. Yeah. So

24:33

like I said, I didn't, I didn't even meet

24:35

any, any, anybody there. I think it was two

24:37

male staff members that checked in on me who

24:39

came and fed me my food three

24:41

times a day and walked me to the bathroom at night

24:44

to pee. Wow. At

24:46

night? Wow. Yeah. If I had

24:48

to pee during the day, it was just in the

24:51

corner. Oh my God. Oh

24:53

my God. I forgot about that literally until

24:56

just now. Oh,

24:58

so horrible. Did

25:01

you tell your parents when you got out that

25:03

that was what was happening? I did. And

25:05

they did not believe me. Um, right

25:08

off the bat, um, the marketing strategy

25:10

or the, you know, the program directors

25:12

tell our parents, your kids are liars.

25:14

They are nothing but liars, nothing but

25:17

manipulators. You cannot believe a word

25:19

that they say. And literally up

25:21

until last Tuesday, when the documentary came

25:24

out, that was when my parents believed

25:26

me. Wow. Are you serious? Oh

25:29

my God. This must be such a

25:31

crazy time for you and your family

25:33

emotionally. I like, you must

25:35

be going through it. All of us. Yeah. It's

25:37

like, we tried so hard

25:39

to tell people when we all got out

25:42

what had happened to us and we got

25:44

brushed off. Nobody believed us.

25:46

We didn't have groups really. And

25:49

so who's going to believe a bunch of delinquent

25:51

kids, you know, who are in

25:53

a program because they were bad. Yeah. That's

25:55

interesting because one of the cultiest aspects of

25:58

this whole thing from the documentary. to

26:00

me is that it's like the parents are

26:02

in the cult, you know, the de-c of

26:14

the time. So wow. Ye

26:19

like dehumanized to the p you

26:22

say is not trusted an you

26:25

make someone bad, sud matter.

26:28

And that's just re bad

26:31

wasn't bad enough. Le our

26:34

truth in the program. like

26:38

we had to make up so ourselves

26:42

to be one up on that

26:46

we could get points could

26:48

make it to the next mean?

26:51

So there's a point and

26:54

there's a level system start

26:56

off at level one. T level

26:58

six to be able to g able to

27:01

exit the program. so

27:03

many amount of points t the

27:06

next level, but they m possible

27:09

to get to the ne all

27:13

of the consequences an that

27:15

they have in place t exactly

27:18

like a cult. Okay a

27:21

consequence is is when y

27:25

to face the consequences a of

27:28

paper saying I've lear and

27:32

then you lose so many the

27:35

category of the rule t rules

27:39

can be extremely v get

27:44

a rude act, which

27:46

is because

27:48

a staff member fe at them

27:50

rudely or you cou staff

27:53

for that, which is up

27:56

to their perception. T depending

28:00

on how you move to the person that

28:02

day. Many points per

28:04

day. Right. I also saw

28:06

in the doc that one girl got in

28:08

trouble because she made eye contact with a

28:10

boy. Oh yeah. So

28:13

you're not allowed to make eye contact with anyone

28:16

ever, for any reason, just the

28:18

rule. You're

28:20

not allowed to talk without permission.

28:22

You have to basically look down,

28:24

raise your hand, wait for a

28:27

staff to call your name, and then you can

28:29

speak. You don't get to

28:31

speak to any of the girls in your families

28:33

unless their levels are high enough to be

28:36

able to talk to you. So if I'm

28:38

a level one, I can only talk to,

28:40

I think it was like level four and

28:42

up. Level two, level three. Level

28:44

twos could talk to each other,

28:46

but only with a staff listening

28:49

or somebody listening to their conversation

28:51

so that nothing sketchy was

28:53

being said. Apologies. What

28:55

do you mean to talk to your families?

28:57

Was that like something that was referred, like

28:59

your actual family, or did you refer to

29:01

like little clusters of? Oh,

29:03

whatever group that we were placed in

29:05

in the program was

29:08

our family. For

29:10

example, when I first got to

29:12

CASA, I was put in Glory

29:15

Family. And then when I transferred to

29:17

Midwest after CASA shut down, I

29:19

was put in Essence Fam. So

29:21

then, group of Essence girls was

29:23

now your family. I see. I

29:26

see. Lily, can you tell

29:28

us about your first days and

29:30

what that experience was like? Well, once

29:32

I finally made it to CASA, I

29:36

had staff members trying to speak to me in Spanish.

29:38

I didn't understand anything they were saying. I

29:40

was then taken to a room with

29:43

three Mexican staff

29:45

women members where I

29:48

was strip searched. While

29:50

I was on my period, I was forced to

29:52

take out my tampon in front of them to prove

29:54

that I didn't have drugs on me, even though I

29:56

was not set for drugs. I did not do drugs.

30:00

And then I was placed into a hallway

30:03

full of bunk beds and sleeping girls

30:05

and mattress was placed on the floor

30:07

and I laid there and cried myself

30:09

to sleep and just trying to figure

30:11

out where I was, what was going on, why my

30:13

parents hated me enough to send me away. Why

30:15

would they do this to me? Was I really

30:17

that bad? Do they want me anymore?

30:21

And then from there, you wake up

30:24

the next day and you're

30:26

assigned that whole study, which

30:29

is typically a level four

30:31

and they tell you all the rules

30:33

and you have them for three days, the Hope

30:36

Buddy, and you're supposed to learn all

30:38

of these rules in a three-day

30:41

period while also writing all the rules

30:43

out. Nobody ever

30:45

gets it right. It's a setup for failure. Once

30:49

you're in for a while, things do tend

30:51

to like blur together. So

30:53

a lot of my time at CASA,

30:55

I was there for three months. A

30:58

lot of it did blur. There

31:00

are specific things that I do remember. We

31:03

also were not allowed to look at boys. We had

31:06

to face the wall whenever boys were coming. The

31:08

only time we could see them was in seminars and even

31:11

then, you better not even look at them.

31:13

It was, oh, in Mexico,

31:15

we were not allowed to shave until we reached

31:17

a level three. So by the time I got

31:20

out, it was a joke with my dad. When

31:23

he came and got me from San Diego after

31:25

the program shut down, I lifted up

31:27

my arm and I was like, look, dad, my armpit hair is

31:29

longer than yours. He's like, you're

31:32

disgusting. I'm like, no, you're disgusting.

31:37

You are literally placed in this environment. You

31:40

have no idea what is going on. You

31:42

cannot trust anyone around you because

31:45

all of the other girls are terrified as well and

31:47

they're constantly being told that if they're not working

31:50

their program, they can't go home and they're stuck there. So for

31:52

example, I was sent when I was 15 years old. I

31:55

would have had to sit there until I was 18 years

31:57

old if I didn't work the program. And

32:00

then they put on this, it's

32:02

like a, almost like a Stanford prison experiment. So

32:05

when the girls level up more and more and more,

32:08

they have to tattle tail on

32:10

the other girls, which brings the girls back

32:12

down. And it ends up power

32:14

tripping, but it is literally

32:16

the only way you can graduate

32:18

and get out. To tell

32:20

on people. Exactly. You're required. So

32:23

what does that look like? Is it keeping track

32:25

of how many people you're telling on? Like what was

32:27

the system? No, it wasn't

32:29

like that. If you see somebody breaking

32:31

a rule, you immediately have to

32:34

go tattle tail. Because if you don't tattle

32:36

tail and somebody sees that you saw the

32:38

person breaking the rule, then you would also

32:40

get in trouble. That's so Scientology.

32:44

It's so Jim Jones. I mean, it's

32:46

so every cult. I mean, that's literally,

32:49

keep people completely isolated from each other

32:51

and make sure they're all afraid of

32:53

each other so that they don't communicate

32:55

and like take a stand, you know,

32:58

or pause and think, hmm, maybe there's

33:00

something I could do here. You know,

33:02

like it's such a tactic. Trust

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wherever you get your podcasts. What

34:52

was an average day look like? What was

34:54

everyone doing all day? So we would get

34:56

up, they would flip the lights on and

34:58

say we had I think it was like

35:00

30 30 seconds or a

35:02

minute to jump out of bed, get our beds made

35:04

and then get in line and

35:07

wait in line and then

35:09

we would go to breakfast and

35:13

then oh yeah the

35:16

head counts every day

35:18

you'd have to count off

35:20

one, two, every room

35:22

you left and we walked in line structure

35:25

and so that's our hands at our side we're

35:27

pivoting at every corner and no

35:30

talking nothing. Were there classes? We

35:32

were at the back of the

35:34

head of the person in front of you. Yep

35:36

and if you looked at a line that was

35:38

a consequence. If you looked down that was a

35:40

consequence like it was. Even if your eyes moved.

35:43

Wow I mean it sounds more

35:46

restrictive than a lot of prisons.

35:48

I mean like it was it's

35:50

insane. So were you

35:53

both at Midwest at the same time?

35:55

We were. Okay is that how y'all

35:57

met then? Okay,

36:00

so did you ever tattle on each

36:03

other? No. Sorry, I had

36:05

to know. I

36:07

had a very strict role that

36:09

I would secretly tell people, like,

36:11

don't do anything blatant in front of me

36:13

because I'm not going to stitch on you, but if I have to

36:16

or I'll be in trouble, I'll do it. Please

36:18

don't make me use the baby the bad way. Please

36:20

don't do that. When would you tell them that?

36:22

When would you have the time alone to kind

36:24

of make a point like that? So

36:27

at night, you were either a

36:29

bunk leader or a bunk buddy.

36:31

And if you were a bunk buddy, you were on the top bunk,

36:33

and if you were a bunk leader, you were on the bottom. And

36:36

when I was a bunk leader, I would wake up the girl, the

36:38

new girl that I would get, and

36:40

because you have to go everywhere with your buddy. So

36:42

I'd wake her up and I'd be like, hey,

36:44

I have to pee. So we go to the bathroom,

36:46

and on the way to the bathroom, I'm like, hey,

36:48

don't do nothing stupid so I have to snitch on

36:50

you. Don't make me do that. Like,

36:52

I'll just leave you be, you leave me be. And

36:57

because of that, a lot of my bunk buddies love me. So

37:02

the only way to have a conversation with somebody is

37:04

to walk to the bathroom in the middle

37:06

of the night, essentially. Yeah, because the night

37:08

staff typically had no idea about any of

37:11

the rules or what we had to do.

37:13

So it was literally the only time we

37:16

could sneak a conversation. Basically,

37:18

the program is doing everything within its

37:20

power to prevent people from becoming friends.

37:23

But were you making friends slowly,

37:25

sneakily anyway? Like how did that work? These were

37:27

the only girls that we saw on a

37:30

daily basis for months,

37:32

years at a time. And

37:34

if we, you know, we weren't allowed to speak,

37:36

but we made lots of eyes. Like

37:39

we spoke with our eyes. Right. Like

37:41

you could tell what somebody needed

37:43

or wanted just by looking

37:45

at them and you had to just make sure that nobody

37:47

was looking at you while you were looking at them

37:49

so that you didn't get in trouble. But

37:52

they were, they became family. Like

37:54

I didn't speak to my parents after I

37:57

got to Midwest for about six months or

37:59

see the. like speak to them at all,

38:01

like no phone calls, no nothing. So

38:04

when you have just these faces, these girls,

38:06

all day, every day, and they're the only ones

38:08

that are going through what you're going through, you

38:10

kind of all bond together.

38:12

Yeah, yeah. You know,

38:14

it's amazing. Like, I feel

38:16

like already just in real, regular life, like girls

38:19

can kind of like look at each other and

38:21

like communicate a lot. I mean, everyone can, but

38:23

I feel like it's, girls be

38:25

doing that. That must be like

38:27

on steroids. When you're in that situation,

38:30

like you're communicating paragraphs and paragraphs with

38:32

your eyes because there's no other way

38:34

to do it, right? Yes. That's

38:37

amazing. And like little superpower. Yeah. Yeah,

38:40

what strikes me is how bizarre it

38:42

must be to live in the normal

38:44

world now where somebody is just like

38:46

looking at you and you're like, what do you

38:48

need? What are you thinking? Blah, blah, blah, blah.

38:50

And they're like, they're just like, nothing. I'm just

38:53

like looking at you. I can't

38:55

imagine like trying to

38:57

reframe all of that trauma now.

39:00

Yeah. You don't really, you spend

39:03

your time anticipating everyone's needs around

39:05

you. It's

39:07

literally like you were in an abusive relationship

39:09

and you were waiting for just

39:12

the change of the tone, the

39:15

change of the facial expression. You do

39:18

that with literally everyone in your life.

39:20

Right, right. Oh, that is

39:22

an unwanted like extra perception

39:26

that nobody needs to have. Nobody should have ever

39:28

had. Yeah, it's like hyper hypervigilance.

39:30

Yeah, totally. So I

39:33

wanna know more about just like, now

39:35

you're both at this school or school in

39:38

quotation marks program

39:40

together. And like

39:42

how much did you advance? Did

39:44

you, were you punished frequently? Like

39:46

what just like kind of paint the picture for us.

39:49

I mean, but whoever wants to take that. Oh,

39:52

yeah. Yes.

39:57

I didn't wanna work the program. I

39:59

wasn't. I just I couldn't

40:01

fathom what they were trying to force

40:04

upon me like I just I

40:06

didn't in my mind It was like this is so

40:08

messed up like like I just I'm not

40:10

gonna do it I just tried to focus

40:12

on school or on doing the school work

40:15

but just focusing on school

40:17

work isn't good enough because you have

40:19

to move up in your program and

40:22

If you don't do that, then you're

40:24

resisting and if you're resisting you get

40:27

put in intervention So was there why go ahead?

40:30

Was there any way like I know

40:32

you said that you kind of would

40:34

need to be Reporting people to move

40:36

up like was there anything else that

40:38

you could do to move up like

40:40

no That was it and just

40:42

like stay keeping your head down and doing your work kissing

40:45

ass That

40:48

everyone in your your family liked

40:50

you Including all

40:53

of the staff around you if you

40:55

didn't have everybody like you while also

40:57

telling on them you were not advancing

40:59

Wow, that's a pondering. Yeah, that's

41:01

pretty impossible situation Again,

41:04

um Zoe you're also you were starting to say something

41:07

else Yeah, so I did not

41:09

advance really I made it to level three

41:11

That's the highest level that I made it

41:13

to but I constantly was dropping levels because

41:15

I was constantly breaking

41:17

rules or getting consequences and Just

41:21

resisting the program in general. And

41:23

so yeah, I ended up in intervention quite a

41:25

few times You

41:28

know for weeks at a time

41:30

sometimes Lily I

41:32

know is in for months at a time So

41:35

it's it's crazy and like when you get

41:37

out of intervention If you know

41:39

they decide you're okay to get out of intervention

41:41

they don't put you back into your families right

41:44

away it you go to worksheets

41:46

afterwards and Worksheets is

41:48

a whole nother fun story where they put

41:50

you in another room and you're at a

41:52

table and you get

41:54

self-help Tapes, so nothing but

41:57

Zig Ziglar and Tony Robinson.

41:59

Oh my God over and

42:01

over and over and you would

42:03

listen to a portion of it

42:05

and then you would have to write down what you learned

42:07

and then you would turn that paper in and have to

42:09

be a full front page and then you turn it in

42:12

and then they play it again and you would do this

42:14

all day long all day long. You were

42:16

getting tortured with self-help programs that is

42:18

absolutely insane. You've never heard of

42:21

anything like that. Yep they're

42:23

even playing those tapes while we were in an intervention sometimes

42:25

like put the boombox

42:27

right outside the door. They

42:29

also played them while we were eating our food. Do

42:33

you get triggered the second you hear

42:35

a self-help person speaking now? I can

42:38

only imagine. They're nodding. They're nodding yeah.

42:43

I'm sorry. An intervention was that also the

42:45

same thing like isolation or what did

42:53

that mean? Yeah it was intervention

42:56

was isolation room OSS. It

42:58

was that we when we were

43:00

there we called it intervention because that's when they were

43:02

playing the tapes because you were supposed to be

43:04

getting an intervention. You were supposed to be reprogramming

43:08

yourself. What a way to

43:10

reprogram people. Just torture them with

43:13

information that they don't want. I'm sure that's going

43:15

to work really well. Yeah

43:17

somebody who's paid a lot of money

43:20

to go see a Tony Robbins lecture.

43:22

I feel really good right now. I

43:28

feel bad because our parents

43:30

paid a lot of money.

43:32

Yeah that's a really good

43:35

point. These programs are not

43:37

cheap. These are money making

43:39

machines because you guys are

43:42

basically doing all the labor

43:44

and they're paying people practically

43:46

nothing to work there which we can get into

43:48

later. But at the end of the

43:51

day this was just a way to make

43:53

a shit ton of money Right.?

43:55

Yeah Yeah. Okay So there'd

43:58

be intervention as punishment. Mint

44:00

and then after intervention worksheets. He

44:02

said. And then you could get back

44:04

into your family if you like. Did all of

44:06

that. The right. What? Impact

44:09

does that have on your

44:11

behavior? Did you guys like.

44:13

To. Start falling in line Mark as you are

44:16

living in fear all the time. Like what

44:18

have powers that. For. Me: yeah.

44:21

I did. I after like my third time

44:23

in Interventions I think I would my third

44:25

stint in there. I was in there for

44:27

about three weeks, four weeks and I broke.

44:29

I was like okay. I will submit. I

44:32

will do what you want me to do. I

44:34

will work this program. I will do it. But.

44:37

In my like it's deep down I was

44:39

like right to speak it, speak it. Take.

44:42

It submit, do advantage during which

44:44

exactly and that it it won't

44:46

be that bad. And. So

44:48

I never went back to intervention. After that am

44:51

I said. I, I I tried. I. I

44:53

did try to work the program but you

44:56

may get to level three and then you

44:58

get to finally go to a seminar called

45:00

parents. You know, parent child

45:02

where you get to see your parents. And I

45:04

was the first time I'd seen my parents. And

45:06

eight months, Six months and you can't seal your

45:08

parents until you make it to that level. Yet

45:11

and. It's some to never make it to that

45:13

level so they never get to see their parents other

45:15

an air. Ah, And

45:18

I just wanted to be able to get. In

45:20

front of them. So if I was able

45:22

to tell them to their faith what was

45:24

happening, they wouldn't make me stay any longer

45:26

apply that period of time. They were so

45:29

brainwashed by the program because they had to

45:31

do their own seminars. That.

45:34

If. I were to try to tell them hey, take

45:36

me out here they would have been. Dropped.

45:38

That that second? he because basically

45:40

they've already been primed like. Prepared.

45:43

For what would happen if you how to respond

45:45

if you say that to them? Is

45:47

immediately they tell them brawl remember You know your kids

45:49

are going to tell you right away. Take Me home.

45:52

And they prepare them for that before they

45:54

even go into seminar. On. Guys.

45:57

And what is like, how often are they doing some.

46:00

the parents. About every six weeks. Yeah.

46:03

And were people able

46:05

to talk on the phone with anyone prior

46:07

to that? Not at all. No. Unless you

46:09

were a level 3 you got a phone

46:12

call once a month. Other than

46:14

that, by the way, phone calls

46:16

were completely monitored. The staff would sit there

46:18

and listen to you. But if you said

46:20

anything that they didn't agree with, they would

46:22

immediately hang up the phone call. You

46:24

would get put in isolation and they

46:26

would call your parents back and be like, they're

46:29

trying to manipulate you. And

46:31

then you get back to level 1.

46:34

Yeah, right back to level 1. So you start right from

46:36

the beginning. If you're a level 3, 4, 5,

46:39

if you go to intervention, you start right back at

46:41

level 1. And what's the youngest, what's

46:44

the age range for kids

46:46

who were there? Oh god, the

46:48

youngest girl there I think was

46:51

11, maybe 12. I

46:53

knew a girl that was there when she, I met her when

46:55

she was 13 and she was already in for like

46:57

two years. Oh my

46:59

god. What if you

47:02

never advanced, I mean, and you're just there for

47:04

that many years? I mean, that is crazy.

47:07

Crazy crazy. I mean,

47:09

any amount of time is crazy. A week

47:11

is crazy. But for like, you

47:14

know, seven years, that's unbelievable. Yeah,

47:18

I'm wondering, you know, you said, I

47:21

decided to just kind of fake it. But I'm

47:24

wondering at what point your

47:26

actual thinking starts to change

47:28

for real. And you're not

47:31

faking it anymore. Yeah. I

47:34

don't really know. Like I said,

47:36

when I decided like the last time in

47:38

intervention, I was going out and I was just going to do

47:40

the thing. I think I just blocked

47:43

it out. I really have

47:45

a hard time or have had hard

47:47

time remembering a lot

47:49

of specifics, a lot of faces, a lot

47:51

of names, slowly but

47:53

surely they unfortunately keep popping up.

47:56

But it's just been

47:58

a process. That's

48:00

where we'll leave part one for now.

48:02

Come back next week for part two.

48:05

There's a lot more to get into

48:07

with these girls. Megan,

48:09

it's come the time of the episode where

48:11

I ask you questions. So I'm going to

48:14

ask you, do you think that

48:16

there was a world in which you could have

48:18

been sent to one of these programs? Oh, that's

48:20

a good question. Actually I

48:22

do remember a time in high school where

48:24

my mom and I were getting along so poorly,

48:27

but she did recommend some sort of

48:29

boarding school. Maybe

48:31

I recommended it and she agreed and we got

48:34

like a brochure, but I think it was more

48:36

of just like a Hogwarts.

48:40

It wasn't the study magic. Bro, you almost went to

48:42

Hogwarts. Tell us. I'm

48:44

just saying, I do

48:46

not think the two could be compared. It

48:49

was like a pretty building and I think

48:51

it was just like private school. So

48:54

very different. Who

48:56

knows? We didn't look that far

48:58

into it and it did say that it was

49:00

like behavior modifying. So it could

49:03

have been terrible. It could have been terrible. I don't know. Were

49:05

you rebellious? Were you doing things that... Well, that's

49:08

the hard thing to know when you're raised in

49:10

a super strict environment. It's like,

49:13

was I rebellious or

49:15

was I just like wanting to paint my nails? I

49:17

don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it

49:19

sounds like no. I mean, I think I

49:22

was to a degree, but

49:24

I snuck out to a guy's house

49:26

and spent the night once. What

49:29

do you want me to say? I'm crazy. Yeah,

49:33

I was not. I mean, I

49:36

wanted to hang out with boys for sure and

49:38

stay out late, but I never drank ever. I

49:40

still never drink. That's right. And I

49:43

never smoked. I never did dry. I

49:46

was really not a rebel

49:48

kid. I would do those things. I once, like

49:50

the first time I smoked weed was with this guy

49:52

I was dating and then he dropped me off at

49:54

home and my parents were like, we need to have

49:57

a serious conversation with you guys. We're like so high.

50:00

And they're like, what is going

50:02

on? And I couldn't stop laughing

50:04

even though I was so

50:06

scared. And to this day, it

50:08

was the worst moment of my

50:10

life. That's terrible. Yeah,

50:12

I was rebellious, but a lot

50:15

of kids are in jubicin. To

50:17

this kind of torture that's worse

50:19

than some... I mean, that's the

50:21

thing. It's not about their behavior

50:23

at all. It's about the

50:25

perception of their behavior. And in some cases,

50:27

it just seems like a nice thing that

50:29

could be helpful. And it's not even related. So

50:33

it has nothing to do with the

50:36

actual kid's behavior. But it is interesting

50:38

how when we perceive kids as

50:40

being bad kids or as being in need

50:43

of something like that. Well, some kids... I

50:45

mean, I wish I would have asked them

50:47

this. If your kid is beyond the scope

50:49

of normal rebellious... I'm using quotation marks.

50:52

You guys can't see me. It's just

50:54

full. I can see me. For

50:56

some reason. Keeps doing it. What

50:58

would they suggest you do? Because

51:02

I mean, I do know I had a friend

51:04

and... Well, actually, it was the very same boyfriend

51:06

I was smoking weed with who did have to

51:08

go to military school because he was going to

51:10

go to jail or was going to get into

51:12

actual big trouble if something didn't happen. And I

51:14

was just wondering what they would say they would

51:16

do with a kid that was struggling out. Like

51:19

an actual troubled teen. What's the healthy way to

51:22

kind of... Yeah, I wish I would have done

51:24

that. But I didn't news flash them. Well, maybe

51:26

we can look into it and

51:28

discuss it in the next episode.

51:30

Yeah. Yeah. Next

51:33

week's episode is great.

51:35

We can't wait to see you then. Watch

51:38

the program on Netflix before you

51:40

do if you want to see what

51:42

exactly we're talking about. Anything

51:45

else to add, Lola? Rate of five

51:47

stars on the podcast app. Oh, yeah,

51:49

please. And leave a little review

51:51

if it's nice. And as always,

51:54

remember to follow your gut. Watch out

51:56

for red flags. And never ever

51:59

try. I'm Oolalola

52:05

on Instagram and Oolalola on Twitter.

52:25

And I am Megan Elizabeth 11 on

52:27

Instagram and Baberham Hits on Twitter. Remember

52:29

to rate and review and spread the

52:32

word. I'm

52:39

Oolalola on Instagram and

52:42

Baberham Hits on Twitter. Remember

52:49

to rate and spread the word. I'm

53:04

Oolalola on Instagram and Baberham Hits on

53:06

Twitter. The

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delicious ice cold taste of Dr. Pepper has

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tell us. Oh yeah, I know a thing or two

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about cold. Oh, that right there is the

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perfect kind of ice cold for Dr. Pepper. Mmm,

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