0:00

If you have your own story of being an

0:02

occult or a high control group, or if you've

0:04

had experience with manipulation or abuse of power that

0:06

you'd like to share, leave us a message on

0:08

our hotline number at 347-86-TRUST. That's

0:12

347-868-7878. Or

0:16

shoot us an email at

0:18

[email protected]. Trust me.

0:20

Dude, you trust me. Trust

0:23

me. I'm like a smart person. I've

0:25

never lied to you. I

0:27

never have lied to you. If you think

0:30

that one person has all the answers, don't.

0:32

Welcome to Trust Me. The podcast

0:35

about cold, extreme belief, and manipulation

0:37

from two mega huns who've actually

0:39

experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc. And

0:42

I'm Megan Elizabeth. Mega

0:44

hun Elizabeth. All

0:47

right. Today our guest is Roberta Blevins, former

0:49

Lou Lebrouw seller and host of the podcast

0:52

Life After MLM. In part one today, she's

0:54

going to tell us how she first got

0:56

involved with MLMs. What Lou Lebrouw

0:58

was like, what the deal was with the

1:00

wet, smelly leggings, and what finally opened

1:02

her eyes and made her realize she

1:05

didn't want to be a part of

1:07

MLM life anymore. We'll discuss how MLMs

1:09

make good people act badly, what huns

1:12

and mega huns are, and where the

1:14

line is between incompetence and knowingly engaging

1:16

in harmful practices. Plus next week we'll

1:19

talk about the Lou Lebrouw president, DeAnn,

1:21

red flags to look for, and more.

1:23

I'm so obsessed with DeAnn. I can't

1:25

wait to talk about her next week.

1:28

Yeah, she is fascinating. And also Roberta

1:30

in a very different, much better way

1:32

is fascinating to talk to. Obsessed with

1:34

Roberta in the good way, obsessed with

1:36

DeAnn in the bad way. Yes, exactly.

1:39

But I'm so glad she finally made

1:42

it onto this podcast. We have done

1:44

a few episodes about MLMs, but we

1:46

have been dying to talk to the

1:48

queen of MLMs, Roberta. So she has

1:50

given us just a behind the scenes,

1:52

very informed, zoomed out look that I'm

1:54

obsessed with. Also, we have not specifically

1:57

done a Lou Lebrouw episode yet. I

1:59

know. So I'm really glad.

2:01

Everybody watched that documentary. Lula Rich, right?

2:03

Lula Rich, yeah. Good.

2:05

So good. Before we get

2:07

into MLM life with her, what's your

2:09

cultiest thing of the week? Okay. Well,

2:12

there's a bishop known as the bling bishop. He

2:14

was in the news a while back. He wears

2:17

the most expensive clothes and jewelry ever.

2:20

And he was giving a sermon and

2:22

three masked men ran in

2:24

and the whole thing was being live streamed and like robbed

2:26

him while he was giving a sermon,

2:29

which is crazy. But

2:31

he is now convicted of

2:33

fraud by the FBI. So

2:36

you know, I follow accounts like

2:39

preacher's sneakers and things that call

2:41

attention to the crazy

2:43

amount of wealth a lot of these

2:46

people are getting and the crazy things

2:48

that they're buying. So I

2:50

like to keep an eye on what's

2:52

happening in the world of some of

2:55

it maybe being fraudulent. Okay. So

2:57

you said bling bishop and so I

2:59

started googling it and there's the bling

3:01

bishop who has now been found guilty

3:03

for spending $90,000 of his parishioners money.

3:07

But then there's this there's photos of

3:09

a totally different guy, which totally confused

3:11

me called who was named the bishop

3:14

of bling. Who was a

3:16

different guy. He's

3:19

German though. We're

3:21

talking about Lamar Whitehead. Lamar Whitehead

3:24

is the bling bishop and the

3:26

bishop of bling is a

3:28

different guy who did a

3:31

very, very similar thing. So

3:33

I guess it's just a thing. People be

3:35

spending lots of money that they're not supposed to be

3:37

spending. Yeah. And it doesn't come

3:40

down to as simple of an answer as just

3:42

look for congregations, but dress super simply because

3:44

we've seen, you know, there's like the

3:46

plain people podcast and also be a red flag.

3:48

It's also a red flag. It's like what the hell. But

3:51

definitely something that caught my eye this

3:53

week. What about you? What's your cultiest

3:55

thing of the week? Well, as you

3:57

know, and as our

3:59

listeners. don't maybe yet, but I'll be doing

4:02

a video about it soon. Probably. I went

4:04

to Washington, D.C. last

4:06

week to advocate for a bill

4:08

related to brain injuries and trying

4:11

to explain to people that brain

4:13

injury induced by drug overdose and

4:15

heart attack and stroke is just

4:17

as important as TBI, but is

4:20

completely understudied and no one cares

4:22

about it for some reason, even

4:24

though it's a much worse injury.

4:27

But what I learned was it

4:29

was my first time engaging with

4:31

like offices in Congress about

4:33

specific change that I'm trying to

4:35

make happen. And it was really

4:37

interesting to me because, you know,

4:40

I had been talking about lobbying

4:42

a little bit, but the truth

4:44

is that these politicians sit in

4:46

these offices. They don't have like

4:48

experts on staff. I thought I

4:50

was talking to someone there about

4:52

that. There's not like a

4:54

head science man in the office that's

4:56

like, here's a priority. Here's what matters.

4:59

It's just like these 25

5:01

year old staffers taking most of

5:03

the meetings and like,

5:05

you know, communicating them to their

5:07

bosses, the senators or house members.

5:10

And so your job as like

5:13

someone who's advocating for change or

5:15

lobbying for something is to go

5:17

in there and like really sell

5:19

your issue and like really

5:21

tell a good story. And it just became

5:23

so clear to me, you know, they take

5:25

like eight meetings a day, like all the

5:27

time. To me, it felt like the

5:30

scenes that you would see in movies growing up

5:32

where there's a king sitting at his throne and

5:34

the peasants come in and they're like,

5:37

please, I need some money for

5:39

my issue. Please fix this thing. And like the

5:41

whole world is burning outside and the king is

5:43

like, I guess you've made me feel something this

5:46

one time. You know, like it's so, so much

5:48

of it is about how much you can engage

5:50

the person in the room and make them care.

5:52

So I guess I'm connecting it

5:55

just because it's just influence. It's

5:57

all influence, like to get anything

5:59

done. sense to me now

6:01

that like lobbies will spend

6:03

a fuck ton of money just like trying

6:05

to kind of shape people's minds and perspective

6:08

because that's literally all it is. You have

6:10

to get someone to care

6:12

about your issue enough to like write

6:14

a bill or sign the letter or do the

6:16

thing and there are thousands of

6:19

people competing with you to try to

6:21

get them to care about their thing.

6:24

And it's kind of crazy. It's kind of

6:26

fucked to be honest. Yeah. Like

6:28

I feel like not that AI would do

6:31

an ethical job of it, but I feel

6:33

like relying on the human

6:35

brain to really like process that much

6:37

information and do a good job of

6:39

prioritizing. Like I don't have faith in

6:42

that. I mean, as evidenced

6:44

by how bad our healthcare system is,

6:46

for example, like, but seeing it in

6:48

real life was just super interesting because I had a group that

6:50

was I will stop talking about this in a second, but a

6:52

group that was like not very

6:54

experienced in storytelling and you could kind

6:56

of see the person's eyes glaze over

6:59

and I was like, oh shit, this

7:01

is why this is why the storytelling

7:03

matters. This is why the human emotional

7:05

experience matters more than the facts and

7:08

the figures because if people can't emotionally

7:10

connect, they're out. And that's what we

7:12

see with cult leaders so much. They

7:14

have those compelling stories and they have

7:16

those. Oh, that's

7:19

interesting. I mean, I already

7:21

felt this, but the only way to ever

7:23

do anything is to be a

7:26

good storyteller, to make anything happen that's

7:28

constructive or helpful for the world, like,

7:30

or to make anything happen that's terrible

7:32

or that's bad. Yeah. Yeah. Or to

7:34

get people from the bad thing out

7:36

and into the good thing, you know,

7:38

like you have to connect emotionally. We're

7:40

just, we're just dumb little animals that

7:42

whose brains don't know what to focus

7:44

on and we have to like make

7:46

it easy for them. Emotions, what we

7:48

see in cults all the time, their

7:51

needs met, their emotions met and

7:53

your, your end stories. Yeah. Thank

7:55

you for connecting it for

7:58

me because to

8:00

connect the cold, but I swear it felt...

8:02

It's not a sign. Listen, I see it

8:04

too. Wow, well, congratulations on a

8:06

job well done. That's a huge thing to

8:09

be a part of. Well, thank you. We'll

8:11

see. But I'm gonna keep, you know,

8:13

I'll keep trying stuff. So I love that. Anyway,

8:16

shall we talk to... I was

8:18

gonna call her a mega hun, but I guess she wasn't

8:20

a mega hun. She was just a hun. She's an ex-hun.

8:22

Ex-hun, Roberta Blevins. Let's do it. Trust

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9:41

Welcome, Roberta Blevins, to Trust

9:43

Me. Thank you for coming on. We've had your

9:45

name on our list for a long time. We're

9:47

finally doing it. Hello. Hello.

9:50

Welcome, experts. You have firsthand experience. You also

9:53

have a lot of experience talking to a

9:55

lot of other people who have experience with

9:57

them. Can you tell us? a

10:00

little bit about how you were very first

10:02

introduced to MLMs and which ones they were

10:04

in the beginning. You know, I would say

10:07

the very first MLMs I was probably introduced

10:09

to were when I was a kid. We

10:12

used to have MLM parties for like

10:14

slumber parties. We'd have stamping out parties

10:16

and what else do we

10:19

do? Lots of scrapbooking close to

10:21

my heart, stuff like that. Like all of the

10:23

craft MLMs, like we were all about it. But

10:25

I was a teenager so I didn't really understand.

10:27

My aunt and my mom both sold Mary Kay,

10:30

but my mom did it for the tax write-off

10:32

and my aunt did it for the car. So

10:34

like very different experiences. Right. My

10:37

aunt did try to recruit me a couple times and

10:39

I did go do a couple things. So I would

10:41

say maybe Mary Kay was the very first one when

10:43

I was like, hmm, I wonder if this could work

10:45

for me. But I didn't do it. I

10:47

didn't join an MLM officially until

10:50

after my father had passed away. And

10:53

that's when I was the most vulnerable. So It

10:55

Works got me. And then I

10:57

was like, wait a second, this kind of scam

10:59

me. And then I joined

11:01

Lula Row like a year later. That's what everybody

11:03

knows me from is Lula Row. And

11:06

then I was accidentally recruited into a

11:08

third MLM on my way out of

11:10

Lula Row, which often happens when

11:13

you don't really know what's going on and

11:15

you're trusting people to like, what are you

11:17

going to do next? Like how are you

11:19

going to make money? And I got recruited

11:21

into this company called Modere and I was

11:23

only in it until I got the little

11:25

letter in the mail that said, welcome to

11:27

the family. And I was like, wait a

11:29

second. You're like, no, I don't remember officially

11:31

signing over this, but I guess I did.

11:34

And I ended up selling everything on eBay because

11:36

I was like, nope, nope, nope. And sold it

11:38

all and sold all of my MLM

11:40

graveyard stuff on eBay as best as I

11:43

could. I

11:45

like that method of dealing with the product.

11:47

I've like, it seems so obvious, but

11:49

I would have never thought of it for some reason.

11:52

Well, people love MLM stuff on eBay.

11:54

It was wild. That's what people would

11:57

battle for. I mean, honestly,

11:59

it's strange. I would buy old,

12:01

like, 90s MLM stuff now on eBay just

12:03

because it would feel, like, nostalgic and fun.

12:05

But other than that, we have to stop

12:07

talking about how we want MLM stuff. The

12:10

lense is away from the

12:12

company. Yeah, no.

12:15

Once it's like vintage, you know, it's

12:17

like a symbol of an era or

12:19

something. I totally

12:21

JK. I love myself a few

12:23

things, but even, yeah. I think

12:25

it's important to pause that you

12:28

joined after your father passed. Like,

12:31

you hadn't until that point and

12:33

not something we see so commonly

12:35

in the work that we do

12:37

with Culp and people vulnerable. What

12:39

was your frame of mind like?

12:41

Oh, I was, it was the worst time

12:43

of my life. It still is the worst time of my life

12:45

to this day. Dealing with

12:47

that. My dad was like, I was a daddy's

12:50

girl. Like, he was my softball

12:52

coach and, like, he was like my dude.

12:55

And he also was

12:57

the kind of person that, like, never went to

12:59

the doctor, like, never talked about the hard stuff.

13:01

Like, we don't talk about Bruno. So when

13:03

he got diagnosed, we just thought it was,

13:05

like, a weird, severe, like, food poisoning or

13:08

some sort of thing. And it ended up

13:10

being advanced stage four pancreatic cancer, which is,

13:12

like, there's no coming back from that. So

13:14

it really was just, you

13:16

know, appreciating what we had left and was

13:19

not very fast. I mean, I want to

13:21

say maybe when he went very fast, I

13:24

would say we probably only got about two

13:26

months after the diagnosis. And I was just

13:28

getting married at that time. And so I

13:30

was like, a new wife, and my daughter

13:32

was really young. And so I was a

13:34

new mom, and there were so many vulnerabilities.

13:36

And I just remember, like, I

13:38

always, like, went back to food as,

13:40

like, a coping mechanism.

13:42

And I remember seeing a picture of myself and,

13:44

like, just being really succumbing to, like, diet culture

13:46

and being like, oh, my God, look

13:48

at what I look like. And, oh, and

13:51

just when that person who happened to be my cousin

13:53

was like, you should try this. Like, it worked for

13:55

me. I was like, yeah, okay, I'll give anything a

13:57

try. Like, why not? It's coming from you. You wouldn't.

14:00

scam me like you're cool. What is it works

14:02

because I had never heard of that prior

14:04

to learning about you. Okay,

14:06

so it works is just another health

14:08

and wellness and has the

14:11

dumbest name it's called it works. Right? Like

14:13

let's prove that it works by calling it

14:15

that. When I joined it works, MLM

14:17

is always have like some sort of gimmick. That's

14:19

like the reason that they're the MLM that

14:21

everybody's talking about. And at the

14:24

time that I joined it works, they had these

14:26

skinny wraps where it was literally just like some

14:28

sort of lotion on like a piece of plastic

14:30

that you would like saran wrap to yourself and

14:32

sleep in and it was like, break

14:35

down the fat cells. And like now I

14:37

think one of the bigger ones was like

14:39

skinny coffee. They had they

14:41

had keto coffee and I was like

14:43

hate to break it to you guys,

14:46

but keto like coffee is already keto

14:48

like naturally right off the bean.

14:50

And so that was

14:53

the it product when I joined. I even

14:55

thought it was stupid. I was like, I

14:57

don't know. But the hitch here, what was

15:00

that when when I had this party for

15:02

my cousin, there's all these people that were

15:04

interested in like, I think one person wanted

15:06

to join and a bunch of people wanted to buy things. And

15:08

I was gonna buy stuff too. And I was like, I'm gonna

15:10

get like free credits because that's you know, like you get 50%

15:13

off and a free credit and this and that. And

15:15

she like, cousin literally was like, look, you're

15:18

gonna spend $130 on all

15:21

of these products or you can spend 99

15:23

to join, you'll get all of the products

15:25

you want plus these two extra

15:27

things. And if you decide

15:29

to make it a business, you have the

15:31

opportunity to make money too if you want to.

15:34

And I was like, Oh, you're getting it getting

15:36

everything on sale. Yeah, right. And I was

15:39

like, even if I don't sell it, like

15:41

this is a better deal. And yeah, in

15:43

MLM, we call that kidnapping. Because you're joining

15:45

for the discount, you're joining for the free

15:47

stuff, you're not joining to like make a

15:50

business out of it. You're just joining it

15:52

to get the cool perks of

15:54

joining. Every time we talk to somebody

15:56

about MLMs, I almost joined their MLM because

15:59

I'm like, I love

16:01

free treats like I'm like, oh

16:03

cool. It's so seductive and

16:05

that way and Absolutely.

16:07

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm a sucker for a product.

16:10

I just let me try a product. I just want to try

16:12

a product consumer to

16:15

get one of everything for an

16:17

even higher discount and say even more money

16:19

than you were already planning on spending at

16:21

retail like Right, right. But I mean I

16:23

hate to say that that's girl math, but

16:26

like that's Super like

16:28

you get the better deals more products for less

16:30

money. Like it's just seems silly So

16:32

that's what happened. And then when

16:35

I said was like, oh, yeah, I'm doing it work So whatever

16:37

my friends like oh my god I love that like can I

16:39

get buy some stuff for you and I was like really and

16:41

it just I had a couple people underneath Me but it's it

16:44

I didn't like it because it's I'm a limo selling

16:46

the same thing as everybody else I had the same

16:48

website It was annoying because you couldn't post it on

16:50

Facebook because Facebook had said like oh this is spam

16:52

So you had to like get a secondary URL and

16:54

like have it redirected and I was like, this is

16:57

too many steps Like this just seems kind of scammy

16:59

like I'm not into this and I think

17:01

I lasted three months before I was like, yeah No,

17:04

and I just moved on it doesn't work

17:07

It doesn't work. Yeah So

17:11

when Lula Roo came around like a year later

17:13

all of the things that had annoyed me about

17:17

Being in that MLM like we're non-existent like

17:19

the replicated websites. We didn't have those Selling

17:22

the same thing like there were so many different products and

17:24

you could pick and choose if you didn't want to sell

17:26

skirts You didn't have to if you if you didn't want

17:29

to sell leggings You didn't have to like there were so

17:31

many different things like I could buy

17:33

it from me and Get a

17:35

completely different inventory as if I bought it

17:37

from your store Megan or your store Lula

17:39

like we always a completely different Inventory so

17:41

if I didn't have it, I'd be like,

17:43

oh well my my teammate has it and

17:45

I could move it Like move that customer

17:47

someone around somewhere to someone else and

17:50

people are like, oh wow So

17:52

the red flags that I didn't like

17:54

about it works Like didn't have there

17:56

weren't there in Lula Roo and

17:59

I was like I still didn't like the

18:01

name. I thought Luoro was a stupid name. But people

18:04

were buying leggings and I was like, I could

18:06

sell leggings. It's certainly not that difficult. I didn't

18:08

see anything nefarious about it

18:10

when I first joined at all. Right.

18:13

I mean, they were just

18:15

like trendy. Everyone wanted to wear these leggings. People were

18:17

still obsessed with those freaking leggings. What do you think

18:19

about them that people love so much? Explain

18:22

them. It has to

18:24

be gambling. Dopamine addiction. I've been

18:27

asked this question so many times from being on

18:29

shows or just my friends. Did you

18:31

see the leggings? I was like, yes. But

18:33

for me, there were enough patterns that I

18:35

was like, oh, those are

18:37

cute. I would wear those. There were a

18:40

couple different prints that had significant meaning

18:42

to me that I was like, oh, it would be really

18:44

cute to have this. It would look

18:46

cute with this other graphic t-shirt I have. My daughter

18:48

was really young and so we would match. I could

18:51

dress kind of more juvenile and it was cute because

18:53

I was a mom of a toddler and we were

18:55

being silly and doing silly things. So

18:58

now, I don't wear loud

19:00

prints just because I'm not in that era

19:02

of my life anymore. But back

19:05

then, it was cute to have candy

19:07

canes on my leggings. That's my

19:09

mom uniform anyway. So when

19:11

I would see floral prints and be like, oh,

19:13

I would totally buy that, I would also see

19:15

some weird novelty. These

19:18

squirrels would be gigantic

19:20

LSD eyes where I was like, what

19:22

the hell? Somebody would be like, I

19:25

need those. And

19:27

you're like, okay. It was weird.

19:29

And I would say, is anybody

19:31

going to buy this? And I

19:33

was always told, well, if you only

19:35

stocked inventory that you would wear, you would miss

19:38

out on the customers of the people that do

19:40

want those squirrels. They do want those crayons. They

19:42

do want the stripes. Wait, there were ones with

19:44

clowns? And they owned? Oh my God. Okay.

19:47

So there were ones that had

19:50

pine cones that looked like turds.

19:52

Okay. So there's a

19:54

range. So what I'm what I think

19:56

we're understanding from you is like you order

19:58

the inventory and you don't know what you're

20:00

going to get. So you could

20:03

have turd pine cones, clowns, and then like a

20:05

few cute floral prints. And so that's part of

20:07

the dopamine hit is like, it's gambling like, am

20:09

I going to get the floral? Am I going

20:11

to get most florals or am I going to

20:13

get whatever? And so you kind of get addicted

20:16

to getting these boxes. Right. So I'm getting addicted

20:18

to the ordering because I'm opening up the box

20:20

going, oh, I can sell that I can sell

20:22

that I can sell that and I'm like, Ching,

20:24

Ching, Ching, Ching, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes,

20:26

yes, yes, all of this is money. All of

20:29

this I can sell instantly. So I'm getting

20:31

the dopamine, dopamine hit on my end. But

20:33

then when I go live to share it

20:35

to sell it, and I show those leggings

20:37

that everybody's been looking for, because there were

20:39

fan groups and Instagram pages of like, this

20:42

is what we're looking for. This is the

20:44

hot print of the week. Right. And these

20:46

like silly names. You open that

20:48

inventory and you realize only got to have

20:50

five of them. You're like, Oh, I could

20:52

write a raffle and people can buy things

20:54

and this could be the winner. And so

20:57

there's all these things going through your head where you have all these

20:59

things to do. You can then tease that

21:01

stuff. Then people are going to get the

21:04

dopamine hit of Oh my God, Roberta has,

21:06

you know, maybe I choose to sell three

21:08

of them. Roberta has three, right? You are

21:10

one of the three people that win. You're

21:12

like, Oh, my God. So it's like a

21:14

good any babies just this or

21:17

Pokemon cards. Yeah, absolutely. Or

21:19

like egg surprises for kids

21:21

opening up mystery toys on

21:23

YouTube. Like absolutely. It's the

21:25

gambling. It's the gotcha machine.

21:27

It's it's the mystery. Right. Is it

21:29

going to be rare? Or is it going to be like, what

21:31

is it going to be? We have to tune in. We have

21:33

to watch. We have to be there when it was

21:36

wild. Like people would fight over time stamps because

21:38

you'd have to just type in sold. I get

21:40

hold something up and say, this is so amazing.

21:42

It's number 42. And if you wanted it, you'd

21:44

have to be the first person to type

21:47

sold 42. And so

21:49

people do like sold 42 and be like, boom,

21:51

boom, boom, I only had three so I can

21:53

only take the first three. Well, number three and

21:56

four, they're now battling over time stamps because on

21:58

my side, I was number three. Well,

22:00

on my side, I'm number three, and they

22:02

would ask us to like down

22:04

to the second. Whoa. Who

22:07

typed it first? So the

22:09

customer is gambling too. So

22:12

much. Yeah,

22:14

it was just this just

22:17

fueled, just fueled by fire and

22:19

dopamine. It's just this is like

22:21

crazy. So much of this is

22:23

so smart. These tactics are so

22:26

smart, like the smartest business move

22:28

is to get people to

22:30

create scarcity and

22:34

then like have it kind of show

22:36

up. It's like fucking Willy Wonka or

22:38

something. Right. And especially in that

22:40

fanaticism. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, how

22:43

did they make such fanaticism though? It's so crazy.

22:45

I mean, I guess at that time, like I

22:47

also, I was never a Lula bro person. I

22:49

didn't even know what it was till a couple

22:52

of years ago, but in that same time period,

22:54

I was legging pattern leggings were like the thing

22:56

and you wanted to have the unique ones, you

22:58

wanted to be the one, you know, like your

23:01

pattern leggings were cooler than other people's

23:04

patterns. Right. I've messed those completely. You

23:06

did. I've had these same black leggings

23:08

for like 30 years. No,

23:12

I had these like golden black, like shiny ones

23:14

and I thought I was so cool when I

23:16

would go out with those because like, no one

23:18

else had shiny ones, you know. Um,

23:22

well, I mean, like even fabletics and stores

23:24

like that that are not MLMs, like legit

23:27

clothing stores were having these

23:29

brightly patterned loud leggings. And the

23:32

other thing that Lula row did

23:34

is they had these really high

23:36

waisted thick band, like a pair

23:38

of yoga pants where a lot of leggings

23:40

didn't have that. They just had a basic

23:42

elastic waist. So Lula row started making it

23:45

that way. And a lot of other leggings

23:47

brands sort of adopted that as

23:49

well. And they're like yoga waistband. Uh,

23:52

things in my thing. Also,

23:54

I just looked up the Lula row time period and

23:56

I guess my legging era was a little earlier than

23:58

this legging era. I think I. did miss this

24:00

legging era. I don't know what I was doing

24:02

this whole time. Mine was like 2007. Okay, not

24:05

important. No, 2009. Not important. Not relevant. Hey.

24:13

Well I do love touching. I don't

24:15

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24:17

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24:26

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25:22

you end up selling Lula-Roe

25:25

leggings and it goes

25:27

very well for you, right? How

25:30

did you do it? Were

25:32

you just really plugged into a network of

25:34

women who were like in this zone? How

25:36

did it work? Yeah, absolutely.

25:38

I've always been plugged in. I just

25:40

am a plugged in person. I think

25:43

it's my ADHD. I talk to everybody.

25:45

I was friends with every

25:47

friend group in high school. Everybody's

25:49

like, Hey, Roberta. I'm

25:52

a friendly person. So I've always talked to people. I've

25:54

always had a network. I was a hair stylist. So

25:56

I had a really big network there of a lot

25:58

of people that trusted me. I had

26:01

already I had been a blogger and I

26:03

had been doing like beauty reviews and and

26:05

family stuff recipes So like so many people

26:07

came to me for advice anyway Like

26:10

right Roberta has a recipe for this or about Roberta

26:12

knows the best thing. So it was already like that

26:14

I know that there are people out there that just

26:16

it's just how they are and so

26:19

when I was trying to look for something to bring

26:21

myself home because I was doing here in Los Angeles

26:23

and I was like I'm so over driving up there

26:25

once a month and like doing this like I have

26:28

this little girl at home that needs me Like

26:30

I want to be there for the

26:32

chaperoning and the things I need to do like I need

26:34

to get out of LA and come back down to San

26:37

Diego permanently and It

26:39

just showed up a lot of people will say like

26:41

oh I was praying for this I'm not super religious

26:43

so I wasn't praying for it But it was definitely

26:45

something in the back of my mind going something will

26:47

come along that will solve these problems

26:49

that I have I'm Simple it's like

26:51

I need to do this this and this and I would

26:53

sit there and I would watch things fly off the shelf

26:56

And I was just like I can sell this like this

26:58

like people are buying the dumbest ugliest

27:00

things like they're fighting I would

27:02

I would buy some things. I'm an ugly for me. Oh,

27:04

you're very Yeah,

27:09

and you know, I I just knew I could

27:11

do it my father sold

27:13

cars he owned car dealerships he

27:15

taught me about customer service and how

27:18

to make people feel special and how to make people come

27:20

back and like want to shop with you and want

27:22

to Be with you and it just

27:25

it was easy You know, it's not easy for

27:27

everybody But for me it was and I even

27:30

will watch my old videos and I'll react to them

27:32

on YouTube and stuff and most of

27:34

them I am giving sales advice when I'm talking

27:36

to my team on this is what you can

27:38

do You can add notes you can add a

27:40

piece of candy go to Costco and get you

27:42

know A thing of pop rocks like I'm talking

27:45

about customer retention and sales and it was not

27:47

really super Recruity for

27:49

me ever one because it was

27:51

so expensive to join and two it was so much work But

27:54

I would again, I think it's the ADHD I

27:56

would feel horrible if somebody like put everything in

27:58

and I was like this is doesn't work for me.

28:00

I'm like, yeah, no, it's a lot. Yeah. So

28:03

I was always very open. Like, it's a lot.

28:05

It costs a lot. It's a lot. It's super

28:07

rewarding, but I am working all the time. Mm.

28:10

Yeah. And so eventually, you had a team

28:12

of 75 under you, and

28:14

you'd made over $65,000 just in bonuses. Yeah.

28:20

So what was the thing? Yeah.

28:22

I mean, did you notice a disparity

28:24

initially between what you were making and

28:27

maybe what the people under you were

28:29

making? You know, I think when you

28:31

would have questions like that before you

28:33

really understand really what

28:35

it truly is and how it truly works,

28:39

the use of platitudinous buzzwords

28:41

and bullshit and cliches shut

28:43

you up really quick. So I

28:45

think any time I saw any sort of

28:47

disparate, like, just like any

28:49

kind of difference anywhere, where I was

28:52

like, oh, this person is like, well, you know,

28:54

you work more hours than them, or they're only

28:56

doing it part time, and there was always this

28:58

sort of like, OK, that makes sense. Right. Well,

29:00

you're a leader, so you should be doing more.

29:03

And I never really looked into it deeper until

29:05

I wasn't really like the middleman once I started

29:07

realizing that I didn't have to go to my

29:09

upline, because it was always like, well, I don't

29:11

know. Let me ask my upline. Once I was

29:13

like, I can handle this, because every time I

29:15

ask them, they give me some dumb answer that

29:17

doesn't make any sense, and I have to go

29:19

find the answer anyway, so I'm not even bother.

29:21

And that was near the end, was where people

29:23

were like, hey, you know, I'm not

29:25

sure if I should pay my mortgage or if I should

29:28

buy more Lula Row, because what if I get really good

29:30

stuff and I sell it all, and then I can pay

29:32

my mortgage and make money? And I was like, yeah, I

29:34

don't think that's going to happen. And

29:37

I was just like, no, don't do that. And

29:39

I do remember actively talking a couple people

29:41

out of it, because one, I didn't

29:43

think that the company was as popular as

29:46

it had been the year earlier, and two,

29:48

I knew how much work it was. And

29:50

there were a couple of my friends who I'm like,

29:52

I just don't think this is the right fit for

29:54

you. I just don't think this is a good idea.

29:57

And whether or not they joined, but

29:59

I had to tell them. them that because I

30:01

felt really bad about it. I started

30:03

to notice things that were weird and

30:05

coming from someone who had

30:07

grown up with a very customer forward

30:11

attitude about business and making sure that

30:13

the person that is shopping from you,

30:15

whether it's your supplier or whether it's

30:18

your customer, making sure that relationship is

30:20

good and honest, that's when I

30:22

started to see a lot of differences because I

30:24

was like, no, that would never

30:26

happen. You wouldn't treat a customer this

30:29

way. You wouldn't tell somebody like it's

30:31

their fault that their leggings are wet

30:33

or that they're like stink or

30:35

I'm like, it's not my fault. I didn't do

30:37

anything. Like I shouldn't be getting this stuff. And

30:40

it was those little things and

30:42

not necessarily what I saw happening

30:44

to my downline, but it was

30:46

the way that Lou Lourault was

30:48

acting on things that could

30:51

be very easily fixed or like

30:53

we're constantly having the same problem. Like I know how

30:55

to solve it, but like nobody was willing to listen

30:57

to the point where you're

30:59

like, is it intentional that they don't know how

31:01

to fix it? Like why wouldn't they

31:03

fix it? It's always a problem. And then

31:06

would that be things like the

31:08

smelly leggings? No, it would

31:10

be like smelly legging gate we'll get into

31:13

for sure. Right. And I think this is

31:15

an MLM thing because I hear it so

31:17

many times in other stories that people tell

31:19

me like the website would crash every

31:21

time. Like it did not have

31:23

enough bandwidth to sustain the amount

31:26

of people purchasing during these launches.

31:29

And I mean, there were people that worked

31:31

in IT that were like, this is a

31:33

really simple fix. If you're just going to

31:35

have a ton of traffic for five hours,

31:37

like we can, I can help you. Like

31:39

my husband does this, he built systems like

31:42

this and it always went like completely ignored.

31:44

And eventually you're like, I

31:46

think it's intentional. Like I think they

31:48

want us to, to create

31:51

FOMO, to create the fear

31:53

of not getting it, to not have

31:55

it. If you can't get it, you can't sell it. If someone

31:57

else gets it, then they're going to sell it. You're going to

31:59

sell it. going to lose your customers

32:01

to that person. You have to get

32:03

them. This really vicious cycle of FOMO

32:05

that was wild to the

32:08

point that like, people were

32:10

opening up credit cards to get orders

32:12

just because they had to order a certain minimum

32:15

and they couldn't afford to buy a box. So

32:17

that they're, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a

32:19

credit card. And then I can do and I

32:21

was like, what are you doing? People would pair

32:23

together and open like they would get like

32:26

orders together and they'd split between two or

32:28

three, four people, just to guarantee that everybody

32:30

got maybe five leggings. You know, I just

32:32

I just want a few Halloween leggings to

32:34

say I have a Halloween leggings to get

32:36

people to come to my party. Oh

32:39

my god, that's so heartbreaking. Yeah,

32:41

like you're like, there's you know, how

32:44

many people want Halloween? Why aren't you

32:46

making more Halloween? Right? You know, we'll

32:48

buy it. Why is there always scarcity?

32:50

Why is there never enough? Yeah. Is

32:52

it intentional? Is it a mistake? Is

32:55

it a scam? So many of these weird

32:57

like this isn't how a real business would

33:00

handle this. So many of those for me,

33:02

I eventually was just like, I don't

33:05

think this is a business that cares about

33:07

being a business anymore. Like, nothing else

33:10

makes sense. I didn't know about the

33:12

pyramid scheme, the cult or like the

33:14

controller anything until after I had stepped

33:16

away and could see it on the

33:18

outside looking in. While I

33:20

was inside, I just knew this

33:22

isn't a business. They're saying

33:25

it is, but they're not doing

33:27

anything to treat it like a business,

33:29

even though they're telling us that we need to

33:31

treat it like a business. They're not treating it

33:33

like a business. It was

33:35

very strange. Right. Megan, were you

33:37

saying I was just gonna say I really like

33:39

that you said a little bit

33:42

earlier that they always had answers for something.

33:44

Because I find myself in that, that

33:46

pattern with people who are an MLM sometimes

33:48

I'll try to branch a subject with them

33:50

because I'll be worried about them. And they're

33:52

like, No, it's because of this, this and

33:54

this. And it's actually going to turn into

33:56

this. This is just the thing that's

33:59

in the mean time and like there's

34:01

always an answer coming or like

34:03

it'll be in the future or

34:05

a reason. So

34:08

interesting. Right. I mean,

34:10

that's true. How does the future

34:12

fade in? Any manipulative people and

34:14

relationships and high control groups. We

34:16

always have an answer for everything.

34:18

Don't question, don't doubt. It's

34:21

your problem. Yeah. We like

34:23

to, Lula-Ra like to say, assume innocence. Thought-stopping

34:26

cliche and cliche is still

34:28

growing. Wow. Assume

34:30

innocence. Assume innocence. We would never

34:32

do anything intentionally. Wow. Insume

34:35

the same innocence. Wow. Like

34:38

after I figured out what they were doing, I was like,

34:40

assume innocence by ass, dude. You were like, put some pumpkins

34:42

on some leggings and send me 20,000 of them. Shut

34:47

up. It was

34:49

wild. Wow.

34:51

I feel the need to say the

34:53

word buttery because every time we talk

34:56

about Lula-Ra, everyone's like buttery, buttery, buttery

34:58

leggings. Were they buttery? When

35:00

I think of buttery, I think of like a croissant, right?

35:03

Yes. Like it's a little greasy.

35:05

They weren't greasy. They were soft. So

35:07

really velvety. Velvety. Like micro-velvety. I

35:09

don't know. They

35:12

have this machine that takes the fabric

35:14

and just slightly damages it just enough

35:17

to make it fuzzy. And it's

35:19

called, it's like a brushing machine. And

35:22

so that's what they would do is they would take this

35:24

fabric. It's called ITY. It's like

35:26

a really slinky, cool feeling

35:28

fabric. And it's like a Lycra or

35:31

whatever. And they'd put it on this machine and the machine

35:33

would like brush it and rough just

35:35

the top layer to create that

35:37

soft texture. But then Lula-Ra would flip it

35:39

over and they would double brush it. So

35:41

when they were using really, really thick, nice quality

35:44

in the very beginning, the double brushing wasn't a

35:46

problem. But when they started buying the really cheap

35:49

off the rack last season, been sitting

35:51

around too long fabric and they

35:53

double brushed it, it created all these like

35:55

micro-holes that nobody really noticed until

35:57

they put them on. And then it

35:59

was like... perforated it was like and we

36:01

just rip like lines like I had somebody

36:04

me email me who was like I bought

36:06

these leggings they literally got them yesterday I

36:08

wore them to work today she was a

36:10

middle school teacher they

36:13

were like her ass cheek was hanging out she said leave it

36:15

sure and I was like oh my god you're

36:19

like but the print is so cute you

36:21

have a free pair of leggings or $25

36:23

or whatever you want like

36:26

let me know by the end of the day the

36:28

other pant had all like her both cheeks

36:30

are hanging out and she was like thank goodness I

36:32

have like a long top over like but

36:35

I'm a middle school teacher and my daughter's in

36:37

middle school now and I'm just like oh my

36:39

god this kids are brutal

36:42

I feel extra bad now yeah

36:45

she would have been a tech talk star

36:47

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and Android So,

38:02

it kind of starts getting gross and crappy

38:04

and stinks and it's wet for some reason.

38:07

Do we know what was happening? Why wet?

38:09

Why was it wet? Yeah, it's okay. It's

38:11

sort of wet, Gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This,

38:13

we actually... Oh my God. This is what's

38:15

so cool about creating content. You guys create

38:17

content so you know. You say something, you

38:19

put it out in the universe, and then

38:21

someone that's listening knows the answer and they

38:23

reach out to you and they say, I

38:25

know why. So after Lula Rich

38:27

came out, the documentary that I did with Amazon,

38:30

after Lula Rich came out and people were talking,

38:32

because I say, in the documentary I'm like, dead

38:34

fart leggings. And so many people are like, yes,

38:36

why? And we

38:38

started looking into it. Well, there's

38:41

a couple reasons why

38:43

these leggings were so gross.

38:46

Lula Row was growing so unbelievably

38:48

fast. They did not have the warehouse space.

38:51

So they're ordering clothes and they're ordering product, but

38:53

they don't have anywhere to put it. They're

38:55

storing it outside in these big metal containers that

38:57

are called Gay Lords, like these big... That

39:00

you would see stuffed animals in it, like

39:02

the fair, right? Like just these huge crates

39:04

and they're filled with clothes. And

39:07

to keep them dry from the Southern

39:09

California condensation, they just have blue tarps

39:11

over the top of them. They're not secured.

39:13

They're just in crinkle packages sitting out in

39:15

the elements in Southern California in our

39:18

wet mornings, in our dry days. And

39:20

it's just like the moisture is getting

39:23

into these packages because there's little tiny

39:25

holes to breathe. And then

39:27

it's just like evaporating, falling and baking in,

39:29

evaporating, falling and baking in my whole day

39:31

over and over again. So there were clothes

39:33

that were mildewy, there were clothes that were

39:36

stinky, there were clothes that were wet. I

39:38

literally got stuff that I had to wring

39:40

out in the sink. Like water came out

39:42

of it. I was like, what is happening?

39:44

Lula Row told me it was FedEx's fault

39:46

or UPS or something, that they must have

39:48

left my box outside. But there was only

39:50

like two things in the whole box that

39:52

were wet. It was wild. It

39:55

was never Lula Rose's fault, anything. So

39:57

then we found out after Lula.

40:00

rich came out where we had to sort of

40:02

expose that everything had been outside and that's why

40:04

the elements had gotten to them that somebody was

40:06

like, wait a second, I worked for this company

40:08

for a couple months. Me and

40:10

my boyfriend had this job then in the mornings

40:13

when we would get to work, we would walk

40:15

around to all the gay lords and we would

40:17

have to fish out all the dead animals that

40:19

had gotten trapped overnight. No, I

40:21

said what? And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:23

And I was like, what about all the clothes?

40:26

There's like, we just had to, if it was

40:28

touching something, we had to throw that away.

40:30

But other than that, so I'm

40:32

just like, so there's literally dead animals

40:34

sitting next to these clothes outside. Lola

40:36

just met herself in the head with

40:38

her microphone. I hit the

40:40

microphone. That is so effing gross. And

40:45

it was like their job. She was like, yeah, that was my

40:47

job. Me and my boyfriend did that for a while. Wow.

40:50

And I'm like, wait, what? So

40:53

then I was like, well, there we

40:55

go. Because I also would say that

40:57

the steak smelled like a dead rat

40:59

pool party because it smelled like decay,

41:01

but it also smelled like really chemically

41:03

chlorine ammonia smell. So maybe that was

41:05

the rats too. But yeah, there's just

41:08

the things that come out when people

41:10

start speaking out and

41:12

the puzzle pieces that were like filled where

41:14

I was like, oh, that makes sense actually.

41:18

That's so crazy. You can't even write

41:20

this stuff. It's like so ridiculous. So

41:22

you started feeling weird about the company, but

41:25

it wasn't because of that, right? There was

41:27

some other stuff that sort of made

41:29

you start to question. Well, it was

41:31

like my, you know, I didn't think they're

41:34

running like a business, certain things like why

41:36

would you tell me to hold on to

41:38

my defects? Why wouldn't you just credit my

41:40

account and move on? Like tell me to throw them away.

41:42

If they're defective, tell me to

41:44

donate it and or or destroy it

41:46

and move on and then credit my account

41:48

or send me like it was weird. So

41:51

a lot of things I'm like, this is not how

41:53

a regular business would work as a hairstylist. If if

41:55

the shampoo that I'm using, like I don't like it

41:57

when the rep comes in and says, hey, is there

41:59

anything? the matter. I'm like, yeah, I didn't

42:01

like the shampoo or whatever. They'll switch it out

42:03

for something else. Like no questions asked. Yeah. So

42:05

the fact that I was getting so much pushback

42:08

was really, really weird. My

42:10

uplines were being kind of weird. When

42:12

I started asking questions, I would get

42:14

like love bombs. I remember them like going, Oh, do

42:16

you want to cruise or do you want to do

42:19

this and trying to keep me a little bit longer.

42:21

But I mean, a squeaky wheel, you know, like you

42:23

make a target on your back and I had a

42:25

target on my back and I was asking too many

42:27

questions. And everything just seemed weird. Like it just, I

42:29

didn't like the way it was going. I didn't like

42:32

the way that people were responding to my questions. And

42:34

I remember talking to my upline and saying, I don't

42:36

think this works for my family anymore. I don't like

42:38

who I've become. I snap at

42:40

my kids. Like, I don't make

42:42

dinner anymore. I have no free time. There's no pockets

42:45

in my day. We don't get to do anything fun

42:47

anymore. It's just Lula row 24 seven. And I don't

42:49

think it works for me anymore. And I remember my

42:51

upline was like, well, let's just give it three more

42:53

months. So if you just stay till Christmas, like things

42:55

are like so many things are happening. And it's again,

42:58

it's like trying to get you to stay. And I

43:00

just remember not wanting to stay, telling her

43:03

what I needed to tell her to get off

43:05

the phone and then coming home and saying I

43:07

quit and posting something and getting this message like

43:09

15 minutes later, that was like, how dare you

43:11

do this to me? We promised

43:14

like, you know, and now looking back, I

43:16

know it's because like me leaving affected her

43:19

bottom line, right? Me not

43:21

making that money means she doesn't qualify means

43:23

she doesn't get her bonus check. And it

43:25

was this domino effect to

43:28

the point where I just stopped producing because

43:30

they wouldn't let me leave until I affected

43:32

enough people's paycheck that they were like, we

43:34

have like a certified letter, but if you

43:36

want to leave, we'll sign it.

43:39

And you can sign it and you'll be you'll

43:41

be done with Lula row forever. I was

43:43

like perfect. So I've been waiting for so you

43:45

have like the people at the top, obviously, you

43:47

create these companies, but then like

43:50

in, you know, just cults,

43:53

I mean, you have these other people who

43:55

are victims themselves, but they turn into like

43:57

little mini cult leaders because then they're

44:00

like, well, no, you can't do that. Here's what you

44:02

need to do with your life. Here's because it affects

44:04

them and it affects how much money they make. It's

44:07

so insidious. It turned like good people,

44:09

you know, I mean,

44:11

I don't know your upline, but I'm sure there

44:13

were many uplines who were good people in their

44:16

hearts who were engaging in bad behavior because that's

44:18

kind of what this system was doing to people.

44:21

Absolutely. There's tons of great people. And

44:23

now that was one of the best things about being

44:25

in the little rows. I met so many cool people.

44:28

And that was also the worst thing about leaving. But

44:30

as soon as I decided I was no

44:32

longer, I mean, excommunication is alive and well

44:35

in multi-level marketing. It just is. If you

44:37

leave for another company, you don't get as

44:39

much hate. Interesting. You'll get a lot of

44:42

like passive aggressive snide, but you won't get

44:44

as much hate as if you leave the

44:46

industry entirely because now you're like, you're a

44:48

total hater. You're like a whistle blower. Yeah.

44:51

Like you're absolutely, you're the bad guy. And

44:53

what does that mean? Like, do people just like feel

44:56

judged? You're like, what is it? I

44:59

think there's this really strange loyalty

45:01

that comes with it, which is like the

45:04

MLM works because of the cult aspect, because

45:06

without the cult and without the control and

45:08

the demand and everything, you wouldn't buy inventory

45:10

you didn't need. You wouldn't go to conventions you

45:12

couldn't afford. You wouldn't jump through hoops of people

45:14

you don't care about. But because of that cult

45:16

aspect, like you have that like, oh, I want

45:19

to make these people happy and I want to

45:21

do these things. And so you end up doing

45:23

a lot of things that you maybe wouldn't necessarily

45:25

do for a really long time. Yeah. Right.

45:28

And, you know, I say

45:31

that too, like in an MLM, the

45:34

you're a victim and a perpetrator.

45:37

Because if you're the last one in, you're not

45:39

going to make any money. And even though when

45:41

you join in people like, oh, you don't have

45:43

to recruit and it's so easy, and everybody loves

45:45

it, and you're going to get straight discount, you

45:47

realize relatively quickly in once your

45:49

warm market fizzles out within the first few months, that

45:51

if you really want to maintain your discount and maintain

45:54

your freebies and maintain your things that you're going to

45:56

have to pull a couple different strings that you didn't

45:58

really expect to be pulling. And

46:00

some people say, oh yeah, okay, I'll get someone

46:02

in. I understand how it works. I

46:04

don't wanna be the last one in. But

46:06

99.7% of people fail. Most

46:10

people in an MLM are the last ones

46:12

in because nobody else is joining. And

46:15

you have that perpetrator mentality that even if

46:17

you don't get somebody in, if somebody doesn't

46:19

sign, that doesn't mean that you're not a

46:22

perpetrator. It just means that

46:24

you didn't successfully convince somebody

46:26

to join. But you

46:28

can still be nasty and gross

46:31

without ever getting anybody to sign that.

46:35

You're also selling at this point in ideology. It's

46:37

a family, it's a whole thing. Growing

46:39

up in the religion that I

46:41

did, it was like get people

46:43

to belong to it. That's an

46:45

important part of you're the only

46:47

Bible the world will ever read.

46:49

And so bring people into this.

46:51

And then you're perpetrating abuse essentially

46:53

by getting somebody to do it.

46:56

But you're just doing, it's so

46:58

confusing. It's like Lola and I

47:01

get endless loops about this of

47:03

like when becoming, you know, how

47:05

it's just, it's like,

47:08

oh, yeah. There's

47:11

also this other interesting thing like, and

47:13

I don't, this is just my opinion and what

47:15

I've seen. But I feel like in

47:18

an MLM, sometimes there's a switch that

47:20

you flip that's unflippable. That you

47:22

really truly know what you're doing and how to do

47:24

it. And you're like, we call them the mega hun,

47:26

the person that's at the top of the pyramid, who's

47:28

been at multiple pyramids, who knows how these work, who

47:31

knows to get in early and all of that. I was

47:33

gonna ask you what a hun is in the first place.

47:35

What's a hun? So I know what a mega

47:38

hun is. Totally. So a hun

47:40

is a like gender

47:43

neutral term that means anybody

47:45

who's ever sold an MLM because we

47:47

often use the phrase, hey hun. Oh,

47:51

okay. So anybody who's like, sometimes

47:53

people say, oh, they're hey girlies or they're hey

47:55

huns. We just say hun, it's

47:57

just like very simple. So a hun is.

48:00

of anybody past or present I'll say that

48:02

I'm an ex-hun and then if

48:04

you're at the very very tibity top of the pyramid

48:06

you know how the game is played oftentimes

48:08

that's a mega hun you'll see them jump

48:11

from pyramid to pyramid they'll get bridge contracts

48:13

which are just basically paychecks

48:15

to help you recruit into

48:18

your next pyramid we've

48:20

got hun bots which are gonna be those people

48:22

who are all in and they copy and paste

48:25

oftentimes they forget to remove the spot that says

48:27

put their name here so you're getting this like

48:29

horrible copy and paste we were like oh my

48:31

god like you're sending it so fast and so

48:33

robotically like you're not even typing my name in

48:36

the spot you're supposed to type my name in

48:38

too Wow and then a hun bro

48:41

is just a guy that does this who's

48:43

sort of like a male version of like

48:45

a hun bot you're gonna see them selling

48:47

crypto insurance haha like they a lot of

48:50

them are in amalay and

48:52

so it's just they're just fun little

48:54

names yeah never meant to do anything

48:56

other than just sort of poke fun

48:59

at the phenomenon of the characters in

49:01

right yeah we've got

49:05

some hun bros and we've got some hun

49:07

bots around there and it's just it's a

49:09

fun it's a fun language you know they

49:12

can have their language we can have our

49:14

language too right right so a mega hun

49:16

you were telling us about mega huns yeah

49:19

they can they can flip a switch right and then

49:21

once that flip is switched it doesn't

49:23

really get flipped back and they

49:25

just sort of become sometimes they'll end

49:27

up in the corporate positions of MLM's

49:30

or they become coaches or something like

49:32

that and you just have

49:35

to I think really really fundamentally

49:37

understand what you're doing at that level

49:39

to be able to have

49:41

a churn rate and like a lost rate

49:44

so high that you don't even bat an

49:46

eye at it because 75 was not

49:48

a huge team in little

49:50

row I mean it's a big team but it was not

49:52

a huge team and just the implication

49:56

of how many people I didn't even know all 75 of

49:58

those people because they were under people who who are under people,

50:01

but it's just the

50:03

mega huns, they have teams of thousands upon

50:05

thousands upon thousands of people. Wow. Because

50:08

they're just so high up and they just

50:10

say whatever they need to say and they

50:12

jump from MLM to MLM. And

50:15

yeah, I think that's one of the only positions

50:17

as opposed to like being in corporate and knowing

50:19

how it works. Right, right. Is that unflippable switch.

50:21

Do you think you have to be a sociopath

50:23

to be a mega hun? I

50:26

think it helps. Yeah, it always does.

50:29

I think it definitely does. Yeah.

50:32

Yeah. I think if you can

50:34

do things to people and say things to

50:36

people and have no remorse, it definitely helps

50:38

because even saying things, I

50:40

remember there's this one example and

50:43

this is such a minor thing, but I

50:45

felt horrible. My sister had joined my

50:47

team and she was complaining about the shipping times and we're

50:49

here in Southern California, so they really shouldn't have been that

50:51

bad. And I just did

50:53

like a video about this. So they were like 11

50:55

days behind on shipping, which is kind of a lot.

50:58

And my sister was just like, does anybody

51:00

know what's going on with shipping?

51:03

Like so innocuously. And

51:05

my up line deleted it and messaged

51:07

me and was like, can

51:09

you talk to your sister about speaking so negatively

51:11

about the company in the open Facebook

51:14

group? I was like, what did she say? Oh

51:16

my God, because I didn't see it. No? Yeah.

51:19

She was asking about shipping times. Oh my

51:21

God. And I was just like, what? It's

51:25

to not be able to bat an

51:27

eye, to be like, it's

51:30

so necessary to be like, how dare

51:32

you speak disparagingly against our company

51:34

and how fast they ship things. I'm

51:36

deleting that and I'm gonna have somebody have a

51:39

talking with you. Like it just was so weird.

51:41

And I was like, so I just messaged her. And I

51:43

was like, hey, look, shipping's really slow too. Like, I don't

51:45

know. I'll let you

51:47

know if I get my package. Sorry, I don't

51:49

know why that was deleted. That was weird. Like it

51:51

was that sort of situation. That happens enough time

51:53

that you're like, what am I involved in? I

51:56

feel so bad for you at this point. Yeah,

51:58

you're like, it was weird? You're seeing red

52:01

flags, everyone's mad at you on

52:03

either side, you're like confused. And

52:05

you're like, whatever. It makes me like

52:07

a little bit like it's like the

52:10

position you were in feels very stressful

52:12

to me and my body. Like

52:14

the cognitive dissonance must have been

52:16

very deep. Yes. Yeah.

52:20

Because I would ask questions. Right. But

52:22

then it would be like, oh my God, that is such

52:24

a good question. I don't personally

52:26

know, but I bet

52:28

you I can find someone who does.

52:31

And I'm like, oh, that would be so helpful. Thank you

52:33

so much. And then it would be

52:35

like, hey. And then I

52:37

get, did you ever, did you ever pick out

52:40

the shoes that you were going to get because

52:42

you got that, you know, and it was

52:44

always like something else. Like I remember they gave me

52:46

shoes. They sent me on the cruise for free. I

52:48

didn't even earn it. I got

52:50

to go to like events that I wasn't officially

52:52

like invited to because I hadn't hit certain levels.

52:55

There was just like love bombing. They

52:57

knew exactly what I wanted because I

52:59

was treating this like a business and

53:01

trying to to be professional and responsible.

53:04

And I just it wasn't

53:06

any of those things. I mean, do you

53:08

think they were trying to buy your silence?

53:10

I mean, is that what was the reasoning

53:13

for that? You think I think it

53:15

was just sort of like a love bombing tactic.

53:17

Like maybe this will keep her happy and she

53:19

won't ask questions or maybe she just

53:21

won't speak up as much if she's busy. I

53:23

don't know. But it always

53:25

there was always something. And, you know, like

53:28

you either just stop asking questions or you

53:30

just fall into line. And I

53:33

think the problem was a lot of the people on my team

53:35

I knew personally. And when

53:37

things started to happen to them and the families

53:39

that I knew and cared about, like I took

53:42

it personally more as well. And so I was

53:44

willing to look into it deeper and I was

53:46

willing to not let it go as like maybe

53:48

a random stranger. I'd be like, I don't know,

53:50

Becky, figure it out. I don't know. You know,

53:53

I really took responsibility for these people. And because

53:55

it cost so much and because there was so

53:57

much, it really felt like a really

53:59

big investment. And when people

54:01

were not doing as well as I was doing, I

54:04

really genuinely felt that and was like, there's

54:06

something wrong. And I remember even telling

54:08

my sister, she was like, what's going on? I

54:10

was like, I don't know, but it's weird and I'm leaving.

54:14

And I thought, like, in this moment, like, I'm either

54:16

going to lose my sister or, like, I'm not.

54:19

And she was like, oh, okay, well, if you're leaving,

54:21

I'm leaving. Like, it was very much like, oh, okay,

54:23

well, I guess I'm coming too. Like, there was no

54:25

question. She

54:27

was like, if you if something is weird enough

54:29

to you, like, you know better than I do, tell

54:31

me how to leave. I was like, okay. What do

54:34

you mean? What do you mean, lose your

54:36

sister? Like, do you think the

54:38

thing could have been deep enough to, like,

54:40

break your relationship? Yes, absolutely.

54:43

It broke many people. Oh, yeah.

54:45

Yeah. Yeah. Certain families were

54:47

like torn apart. Like, sisters that had teamed

54:49

up together to be like a duo team, jealousy ripped

54:51

them apart and they no longer speak and they started

54:54

their own teams and things like that. Oh, my God.

54:57

It happens all the time. That is so sad. Yeah,

55:00

it's just some, it's just some fucking leggings,

55:02

you know? It's more than that, though.

55:05

It's like... No, of course, of course.

55:07

Yeah, it's just, I mean, they know how to

55:09

tap into wanting to be your

55:11

own boss and wanting to whatever.

55:14

Feminism, female empowerment, the American dream. I know, but

55:16

it's, you know, like, the fact that they convince

55:18

people that someone else making a different choice would

55:20

have any, should have anything to do with you

55:23

when it's their own lives, you know, like, again,

55:26

it's making all of these regular

55:28

innocent people into like controllers,

55:31

which, yeah, it's just,

55:33

it's really sad. It's wild. I was,

55:36

sometimes when I hear some of

55:38

these stories, I'm like, parts of

55:40

this sound like just incompetence,

55:43

like just bad businessmen, you know what I

55:45

mean? Like, where

55:47

is that line with this

55:50

company? But maybe in general,

55:52

like, you know, the, oh, they grew too fast

55:54

and they couldn't accommodate and they didn't know what

55:56

they were doing. So the shipping was

55:58

bad, you know, like, where... Where

56:00

do you think of that line

56:02

being of the difference between incompetence

56:04

and willful like malicious

56:08

intent or something? I mean I definitely think

56:10

there's a little bit of both. All

56:12

of these companies are set up

56:14

based on the legal statue of

56:17

Amway versus the FTC in 1979

56:20

which established that MLMs could be legal as

56:22

long as they follow the Amway rules. And as soon

56:24

as you learn the Amway rules you realize that nobody's

56:26

following the Amway rules. There's like

56:28

this self-regulating board that says they

56:30

are and like apparently we trust

56:32

them so everything's fine. Once

56:36

MLMs realize that they could

56:38

literally set up pyramid schemes

56:41

as legal businesses like you've

56:43

got snake oil salesman and grifters just

56:45

coming in. I mean a lot of

56:47

these CEOs will go to prison for

56:50

fraud and when they get out

56:52

they start new MLMs. And

56:55

then people are like have you heard about this? No MLM

56:57

and I was like that's the guy that went to prison

56:59

for fraud. I was like you're a hater. And I was

57:01

like no I'm not. Are these vitamins? Like yeah. Yes

57:04

they're just vitamins. They're $100

57:07

vitamins. It's

57:10

wild right? So

57:13

I think that there definitely

57:15

is this like villainous,

57:19

nefarious understanding

57:21

that we're opening up a pyramid scheme. And

57:24

as long as we call it multi-level

57:26

marketing or direct sales or network marketing

57:29

and as long as we promise wink

57:31

wink to abide by this set of

57:33

rules that we will self-regulate each other

57:36

on wink wink then

57:38

it will be fine. So there's a lot of

57:40

but if you if you ask them they act

57:42

like they're dumb. Like they don't understand it. And

57:44

I'm like I don't understand how you can continue

57:46

to set up legal pyramid schemes and

57:48

not understand that what you're setting up a pyramid

57:50

scheme. And so is it willful ignorance?

57:52

I don't know. I feel like it's

57:55

incompetence. Like it's

57:59

masking. Like they're

58:01

evil and then they pretend to be stupid.

58:04

Does that make sense? Yeah, a double whammy. I

58:07

mean, it's their legalized pyramid

58:10

schemes. Yeah. They

58:12

are. Why isn't there... I

58:14

mean, hopefully this isn't too much of a

58:16

deviation from what we're talking about, but is

58:19

there a movement to have those

58:21

not be self-regulated and have like

58:23

outside regulation? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

58:25

yeah. Always. I work

58:27

with like a coalition of a bunch

58:30

of people. There's a couple of us

58:32

activists who are creating content and talking

58:34

to victims on the daily. There

58:36

are former lawyers who have

58:38

prosecuted multi-level marketing. There are

58:40

representatives for other consumer protection agencies

58:42

that are in this group. We

58:45

meet once a month. We have a conference

58:47

that we do once a year. It's actually

58:49

coming up in May. We

58:51

go to D.C. and have this conference and meet

58:53

with people in the government and just try to

58:55

show them our side and just say, look, we're

58:58

not saying cancel it. We're

59:00

saying make it safer for consumers. We're

59:03

saying let's have a rule here. Let's

59:05

maybe have a waiting period. Let's be a little

59:07

more transparent with what

59:10

people are getting into. And

59:13

MLM, they have this lobby called the

59:15

DSA. They've got offices on K Street, just like

59:17

all the other lobbies. They're a $190 billion

59:20

a year industry and

59:22

they lobby themselves out of everything. Like

59:25

they're called the DSA, not to be

59:27

confused with Democratic Socialists of America. The

59:31

Direct Sellers Association. And

59:34

yeah, there's like some, there's something right

59:37

now that's going around that they're trying

59:39

to get out of. They're trying to

59:41

be classified. It's

59:43

a labor law and they're trying to

59:45

get them and real estate agents,

59:47

like they're coming on the piggyback of real

59:49

estate agents in this new

59:51

gig economy trying to classify everybody

59:54

else as employees, but

59:57

real estate agents and MLM, they're

1:00:00

contractors. So they don't deserve rights, they

1:00:02

don't deserve breaks, they don't deserve overtime,

1:00:04

they don't deserve anything. So that's really

1:00:06

what's happening right now is they are

1:00:08

trying to legislate themselves out of that

1:00:11

rule because if they're

1:00:13

part of that rule it's a lot harder to quote

1:00:15

self-regulate if you know what I mean. Oh

1:00:18

my gosh. Crazy. It's wild. It's wild. And

1:00:20

people don't like people don't know. They'll say

1:00:22

things like I don't know why you have

1:00:24

to be so upset it's just lipstick or

1:00:27

can't people just like open fizzy jewelry on

1:00:29

TikTok if they want to? And I was

1:00:31

like sure. But like if

1:00:34

I told you that out

1:00:37

of these hundred fizzy bombs only one of

1:00:39

them had jewelry and every single one of

1:00:41

them was a bomb, would

1:00:43

you still be so excited to

1:00:45

open them live? Or would

1:00:47

you be a little more cautious? Because it

1:00:49

has a 99% fail rate. It's

1:00:52

worse than gambling. It is worse than gambling. The

1:00:54

first time I ever saw this and understood was

1:00:56

that show the United States of Tara. Did you

1:00:58

guys ever watch it? No.

1:01:01

I watched a little bit of it. Her sister is

1:01:03

just like what am I going to do with all

1:01:05

of these vitamins? She had ordered all

1:01:07

of this stuff and she's just like losing her

1:01:09

mind and she's just like what am I going to

1:01:11

do? And I was just like oh

1:01:14

shit. It humanized it

1:01:16

for me in a way that like

1:01:19

I don't know everything just needs to be put into

1:01:21

stories so that people can like understand it. I

1:01:25

did not finish watching the show but how to

1:01:27

become a god or no on becoming a god

1:01:29

in central Florida it was sort of my version

1:01:32

of that. So good. So good. That

1:01:34

one's about Amway allegedly and it's so

1:01:36

good. We watched that in

1:01:38

my discord and one of the things I think

1:01:41

that all of us were talking about was just

1:01:43

how accurate the dialogue was and

1:01:45

like the beef between characters and like the

1:01:47

way that weird things I was like that's

1:01:49

so accurate that's so funny. And people outside

1:01:51

would be like why are they acting like

1:01:53

this? I'm like no no no that's actually

1:01:55

very real. Because you guys see your own

1:01:57

like culty lingo almost. Super culty. The

1:02:00

whole two behaviors, like in Amway, like

1:02:03

in regular MLMs, you're going to have teams. But

1:02:05

in Amway, they call them LOAs. They stand

1:02:08

for Lines of Affiliation and they are like

1:02:10

old, like skull and bone society

1:02:12

kind of old. Oh, wow. Like

1:02:14

back from the days of Amway. And when

1:02:17

you join in LOA, you're selling Amway,

1:02:19

but you're buying your education, your tools and

1:02:21

everything like how to run your business through

1:02:23

your line of affiliation. And

1:02:25

if you're in one affiliation, you might

1:02:28

like read a certain amount of books or do

1:02:30

a certain thing a certain way, but in a

1:02:32

different line of affiliation, you might do it a

1:02:34

different way entirely. So in On

1:02:36

Becoming a God in Central Florida, they've

1:02:39

got the guy Cody, who's like

1:02:41

the main guy, he is

1:02:43

following the Garbo system. So he's in

1:02:45

the Garbo LOA. Wow. But he keeps

1:02:47

meeting up that other guy at the

1:02:49

diner and they always have this weird

1:02:51

beast. That guy is in a

1:02:53

different LOA. So they both sell

1:02:55

the same MLM. You'd

1:02:57

think they'd be friends, but they're

1:03:00

on different tool systems and show

1:03:02

their enemies. And they just

1:03:04

have this weird beast throughout the whole

1:03:06

series where they're just like pranking each

1:03:08

other just to be like, yeah, Garbo

1:03:10

system's better, bitch. Like it's just so

1:03:12

dumb, but it's so real. And it was

1:03:14

really funny from any anybody that understands like

1:03:16

how it works. Like just watching it. I

1:03:19

was like, oh, oh, that's the guy from

1:03:21

the other. This is hilarious. That's so funny.

1:03:23

I feel like my friend might be one

1:03:25

of those guys. He plays

1:03:27

Pat Stanley. Do you remember which character

1:03:29

that is? That might be the guy. Josh

1:03:32

Fadim, shout out, very funny actor, cast him and

1:03:34

everything. Yeah,

1:03:37

you're so right, Megan. There's

1:03:39

so much stuff like that where we just like wouldn't be able to

1:03:41

connect to what it really means without seeing

1:03:43

that depicted on screen. I like ordering

1:03:46

my blank and blank eyelash serum from

1:03:48

blank and blank company because I feel

1:03:50

like it works the best. And what's

1:03:52

wrong with that? And then I saw

1:03:55

it and was like, oh, because

1:03:58

people are ruining their lives? probably.

1:04:01

Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:04

It really sounds like the analogy

1:04:07

you made early, not analogy, the story

1:04:09

you mentioned earlier of a woman who,

1:04:12

I mean, I presume it was a

1:04:14

woman who was like, should I pay

1:04:17

my house payment or pay for this

1:04:19

and I could make more money? It

1:04:21

made it so clear for me, the

1:04:24

gambling connection and almost almost sounds

1:04:26

like an addiction. Like, it's just

1:04:28

so unhealthy. It's just all of

1:04:30

this is just, it's like, it

1:04:32

feels compulsive almost. Absolutely.

1:04:35

It was strange. And

1:04:37

then there's also this connection

1:04:39

like me as somebody who is neurodivergent

1:04:41

and has ADHD and has been diagnosed

1:04:44

as ADHD. That's

1:04:46

a dopamine deficiency. So my

1:04:48

entire life, always looking for

1:04:50

my next hit of dopamine. And then here

1:04:52

comes Lularo. And every

1:04:54

week I'm ordering a box of dopamine

1:04:56

being delivered on my front porch every

1:04:59

single week. Now I'm ordering two boxes.

1:05:01

It's coming every three days. Oh my

1:05:03

gosh, look at all this dopamine. Oh,

1:05:05

I just sold the leggings. Dopamine sold

1:05:07

a shirt. Dopamine. There's a convention coming

1:05:09

up, dopamine. So I stayed in just

1:05:11

because it fueled what I needed. My

1:05:13

brain was like, we crave this. We

1:05:15

don't have this. We need this. And

1:05:17

I, it was an addiction. I couldn't

1:05:20

get away from it. And it was my own

1:05:22

body. It was my own chemicals. And

1:05:24

like my body and my mind like betraying me

1:05:27

because Lularo is using these bright

1:05:29

colors. And you know, you go

1:05:31

to a convention, it's like being in a troll party.

1:05:33

It's like being like in the movie trolls

1:05:35

with all the glitter and all the things. And

1:05:37

you're just like, this is the best thing I've

1:05:39

ever experienced. Let's have more of this. It's just

1:05:41

like dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, like going into a

1:05:43

casino. And he had the bells and the whistles

1:05:46

and the jingle jangle of all the things. It's

1:05:48

just, it's, it's put you there. And it's

1:05:50

just, it's exciting. And we

1:05:53

just got addicted. It was so addicted. And

1:05:55

you're just addicted to selling. You're

1:05:57

addicted to buying, but you're not

1:05:59

addicted. to making a profit and loss

1:06:01

statement or checking in to make sure that

1:06:03

you're not spending too much

1:06:05

or looking at your inventory and going, oh

1:06:07

my God, like you're just you're working towards

1:06:10

these goals that said they're

1:06:12

not they just they keep moving. It's this golden carrot

1:06:14

on a stick that's just always right in front of

1:06:16

you and you you might get something

1:06:18

but as soon as you get something like, oh,

1:06:20

did you see that next golden carrot? I was

1:06:22

like, what there's nothing more here. There's no more.

1:06:25

Partially golden carrots. Yeah, they're always just moving that

1:06:27

goalpost is crazy. I mean,

1:06:29

yeah, and it's like I already have five golden

1:06:31

carrots. So I know I can get another one

1:06:33

because every now and then they do throw you

1:06:35

a little bit of proof that

1:06:38

it works. Yeah. Yeah. But the golden

1:06:40

carrots even when we get them, they don't fulfill it.

1:06:42

Yeah, they don't. The golden carrot was like five

1:06:44

good prints in a box of 40 bad

1:06:47

prints. Oh my God, I can sell

1:06:49

it. Right. Okay. And that

1:06:51

concludes part one. Stay tuned

1:06:53

next week for part two, where we get

1:06:56

all into about family bucks. Crazy, crazy

1:06:58

family. Yes. And I like how she

1:07:00

described the world as a jelly bean

1:07:03

world. We'll talk more about the jelly

1:07:05

bean world next week. But Megan, I

1:07:07

was wondering, do you think

1:07:09

you would sell Lou LaRoe? Interesting. I

1:07:11

mean, I did get hit up to

1:07:14

buy some of it. And I think

1:07:16

even somebody said they liked

1:07:19

selling it. But I'm not good at selling

1:07:22

things or organizing things

1:07:24

or even ordering things. So

1:07:27

no, I don't think that I would.

1:07:29

But if I were good at those

1:07:32

things and I was getting thousands upon

1:07:34

thousands of dollars in free vacations and

1:07:37

all of these fun new friends, I'd

1:07:39

be a hook line and sinker. Sure. Yeah, I

1:07:42

think I also would have a hard

1:07:44

time selling things. I feel like I'm

1:07:47

better at selling like other people like

1:07:49

being like, this person's great. They have

1:07:51

something awesome. But if it's like, I

1:07:53

have this product, isn't it wonderful? I'm

1:07:55

like, I have I'm having to force

1:07:57

myself to learn how to promote better because

1:07:59

I just I'm not good at it.

1:08:01

And especially, like I even opened up

1:08:04

an online shop. We're terrible at it. We

1:08:06

don't even tell people we have merch. I

1:08:08

know. I get so like.

1:08:10

I know. Which by the

1:08:12

way is bit.ly slash

1:08:14

trust me merch. It's

1:08:17

so cute. Yeah, but like I

1:08:19

love organizing and like creating projects

1:08:21

and stuff, but selling is like so not

1:08:23

my strong suit. If I'm supposed to like

1:08:25

talk about something in a way that makes

1:08:27

whatever my thing is sound cool, I just

1:08:29

like clam up and get uncomfortable. Yeah,

1:08:31

it's a school set. And I can

1:08:33

see how if you were good at

1:08:35

it, you could not even realize you

1:08:38

were using it in a bad way

1:08:40

until you were pretty deep in. Totally.

1:08:42

But we'll talk more about it all

1:08:44

next week. We can't wait for you

1:08:46

to join us. Then thank you for

1:08:48

listening today. Rate us five stars if

1:08:50

you haven't already. And as always, remember

1:08:52

to follow your gut. Watch out for

1:08:54

red flags. And never ever trust me.

1:08:57

Bye. Stacey

1:09:00

Parr. Satoshi

1:09:04

is political Christian Victor ARE

1:09:06

objectionable with Mixed Closing

1:09:25

Hits on Twitter. Remember to rate and

1:09:27

review and spread the word!