0:00

If you have your own story of being in

0:02

a cult or a high control group, or if

0:04

you've had experience with manipulation or abuse to power

0:06

that you'd like to share, leave us a message

0:08

on our hotline number at 347-86-TRUST. That's

0:12

347-868-7878. Or

0:16

shoot us an email at

0:18

[email protected]. Trust me.

0:20

Dude, you trust me. Trust

0:23

me. I'm like a smart person. I've

0:25

never lied to you. I

0:27

never have lied. If you think that

0:30

one person has all the answers, don't.

0:32

Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about

0:34

cults, extreme belief, and manipulation from two

0:36

lovers who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola

0:38

Blanc. And I'm Macon Elizabeth. And today

0:40

our guest is Maddie Stroud, whom you

0:42

may have seen on the HBO docuseries

0:45

Love Has One, because she is the

0:47

late cult leader Amy Carlson's daughter. Amy

0:49

Carlson is the one whose mummified body

0:51

was found wrapped in Christmas lights in

0:53

Colorado. Today we're going to talk about

0:55

what she remembers of her mom as

0:57

a kid, how it felt after Amy

0:59

suddenly left Maddie and her brothers when

1:01

she was only seven, and how she

1:03

discovered that her mom had started the Love

1:05

Has One new age cult, claiming that she

1:08

was God, or more specifically, Mother God. Yep.

1:10

We'll also talk about how Amy's cult grew

1:12

and her followers became more fanatical, and

1:14

how her last boyfriend known as Father God

1:16

contributed to her demise, and how difficult it

1:18

was for Maddie to watch her mother's health

1:21

deteriorate, knowing that the people around her could

1:23

have tried to help. Plus how there are

1:25

still followers till this day. That's right. This

1:27

documentary is the most batshit

1:30

crazy thing I have ever seen in my entire

1:32

life. Watching it as her daughter,

1:34

I cannot even imagine. And then having

1:36

the courage to still talk about it,

1:38

she's unbelievable. I know. I mean, it's

1:40

truly shocking, everything, because they just filmed

1:43

so much. You normally don't get to

1:45

see into the psychology of a cult

1:47

as it's happening, but they filmed everything.

1:49

HBO, Mother. Love Has One is what

1:51

it's called. It's really good. It's really

1:54

good. My friend was explaining

1:56

it to me, and I thought she was lying.

1:58

Really. But you knew this story. generally.

2:00

Yeah, but I mean when somebody's like, yeah,

2:02

then there's like a corpse wrapped in Christmas

2:05

lights and they're traveling. I was like, no,

2:07

there's not. I didn't believe it. I mean,

2:09

it is wild. But anyway, we will get

2:11

into all that in a minute. I just

2:13

do have wow. Love for Maddie. Yeah, I

2:15

know. I know. I know. Copious thing. Yours?

2:17

So my copious thing is I

2:20

was at a comedy show and

2:22

it's near the restaurant La Pueblo.

2:24

Apparently La Pueblo is

2:26

one of the in Los Angeles and Los

2:28

Angeles is one of the frequented places of

2:31

convicted rapist and Scientologist Danny Masterson. That

2:33

was like his hotspot. It's right across

2:35

from the celebrity center, the Scientology Celebrity

2:37

Center. And you would always see him

2:40

there. I remember always seeing him there

2:42

with his friends. And apparently he was

2:45

putting drugs and women's drink at the

2:47

bar. People are saying then even after

2:49

he was committed of all of this,

2:51

the owner wrote a letter of recommendation

2:53

for the judge. And so

2:55

when you go out now to La

2:57

Pueblo, I mean, not I haven't been

2:59

to La Pueblo, but when you go

3:02

to these restaurants near it, there's

3:04

all these people protesting. And so they

3:06

phone people going in and leaving

3:08

like outing who is frequenting

3:10

this bar to try to kind of run

3:12

it to the ground. But people are recording

3:14

us walking out of UCB

3:17

and it kind of felt like it was an

3:19

improv. Yeah, it kind of felt like it looked

3:21

like they were making it seem like we were

3:23

coming out of La Pueblo. And I

3:25

was like, uh, excuse me, but I'm

3:27

not gonna say anything. You know,

3:29

I'm, I don't want to engage in

3:31

like, start some arguments. Sure. But

3:34

you were kind of saying it reminds you of

3:36

the second season of the jinx, which everybody needs

3:38

to watch, but it's just like, not the protesters,

3:40

not the protesters, how a lot in the jinx

3:42

is just his friends kind of, they're like, yeah,

3:45

well, he murdered someone. He murdered somebody, but you

3:47

know, whatever. And that's kind of was

3:49

the vibe. Like I remember being

3:51

at La Pueblo and somebody being like,

3:54

yeah, I mean, Danny is

3:56

a rapist and you're outside on the

3:58

patio. Oh my God. I was

4:00

like, what? And

4:02

it all became this very

4:04

Scientology protected, apparently,

4:07

kind of thing that I haven't

4:09

teased out all the details, but

4:12

it was very weird. And now

4:14

I'm recorded looking like I went to

4:16

frickin' Lava Bells. Well, it's

4:19

just such an interesting thing because we

4:21

see people rightfully having strong

4:23

reactions to really bad behavior,

4:25

sexual assault, enabling

4:27

sexual assault, excusing sexual assault, all of

4:29

these things are terrible, a cult covering

4:32

up sexual, you know, like all of

4:34

it is really bad. But then it

4:36

turns into a protest outside that's demonizing

4:38

any person even remotely in the area

4:40

of the establishment, which that's not exactly

4:42

like nuanced behavior either. It's not really

4:44

like, what is that actually contributing? Which

4:47

in itself is a little bit culty. You

4:49

know, obviously I totally understand and

4:52

emphasize and feel the instinct to

4:54

kind of like not let people

4:56

continue to cover up the

4:58

actions of bad, famous people. Yeah.

5:01

But also you were just going to UCB. And it's just a

5:03

weird little thing. And

5:06

it's also just so weird to like be

5:08

at UCB and eat somewhere afterwards. It's just

5:10

this normal street on Los Angeles. And it's

5:12

just the biggest Scientology center across the street.

5:15

And you're just like, what the fuck is

5:17

going on in there? You know, you can

5:19

see like lights turning on and off and

5:21

I'm just like, what is going on? It's

5:23

such a mystery always. Because it looks like

5:25

a castle. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's so I

5:27

once, like when I first moved here, I asked if I could move in

5:30

because I thought it was like an apartment. I feel like

5:32

we all went that way. Yeah,

5:35

that's how they get you. Yeah, it's crazy out

5:37

there. That's what I have to say to that.

5:39

I know. What about you as the cultiest thing

5:41

that happened to you this week? Well, I'm reading

5:43

a book. You are? I'm

5:45

reading a book, which I know is crazy. What is

5:47

it? It's called On Being

5:50

Certain by Robert Burton. It's a

5:52

good rhyme. He's a poet and

5:54

he didn't even know it. The

5:56

book. You mean because his last name rhymes with

5:58

his title? Okay, that's why. There's

6:00

I've just started it. There's a lot more book to

6:02

go, but I am obsessed with this

6:04

book I'm kind of obsessed with him to

6:06

be honest because there he's written about so

6:08

much stuff that I'm just like Particularly very

6:10

very interested in but one of

6:13

the things he kind of opens the book

6:15

with just this basic premise But certainty is

6:17

actually an emotion. It's not reflective of reality

6:19

really at all You don't feel certain because

6:21

you know you feel certain because you have

6:23

the feeling of certainty Which

6:26

is just something I had never really heard

6:28

framed that way before But I've been reading

6:30

about it since and that seems to be

6:32

the case interesting Yeah, so here's a story

6:34

that he tells okay great or that he

6:36

writes about there's a study the day after

6:39

the 1986 Challenger shuttle

6:41

accident Psychologist Yulrich nicer

6:43

probably saying it wrong Asked

6:46

a hundred and six students to write down exactly where

6:48

they were and what they were doing when they first

6:50

heard about the explosions Have you heard about this? No,

6:52

you then interviewed the students same students two and a

6:54

half years later To see how

6:56

accurate their memory would be and how certain

6:58

they would be about that memory Less than

7:01

one in ten got the details right, but

7:03

almost all of them were certain that their

7:05

memories were accurate 25%

7:08

of them had their perception

7:10

of what happened was completely

7:12

Completely different and unrelated to what they had written

7:14

in their journals. I thought it they found that

7:16

out They wrote it all down right

7:19

after Yeah So it was all he

7:21

had all of the journals and then when they were

7:23

confronted with their original journal entries because obviously When something

7:25

is fresh on your mind, I read it when

7:27

they're confronted with their original journal entries Many

7:30

of them defended their beliefs one of them

7:32

even answered. That's my handwriting, but that's not

7:34

what happened Well, so it

7:36

took quote and New Yorker

7:38

article about the study It showed that there

7:40

was no relationship at all between confidence and

7:42

accuracy and that's what the whole book is

7:44

about Just because you feel

7:47

certain does not mean that what you feel

7:49

certain of is actually true It's

7:52

you know, like for whatever evolutionary reason

7:54

that's just like the way our brains

7:56

are wired But the more

7:58

certain you feel that you could

8:00

absolutely not be wrong, the more likely you are

8:02

to probably actually be wrong because that means you're

8:05

not thinking critically about it. Right. Anyway,

8:07

I have a lot more book to go, but I just

8:09

got excited about it because I love it. Yeah,

8:12

I mean, it brings up so many questions to

8:14

my mind, but I'm going to read the book

8:16

and then maybe we can have him on. I've

8:18

been trying. He's quite old. Is he? He's

8:22

quite old. And I actually emailed

8:24

him just because I was like,

8:26

can we be like friends? Yeah. I

8:28

just want to like talk to you because

8:30

I just think his work is really interesting.

8:32

We'll see. Anyway, so lots more to dive

8:34

into with that. I'm excited to learn more.

8:37

We will revisit this concept at a later

8:39

time, but for now, I think we should

8:41

talk to Maddie. What do you think? I

8:43

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That's quince.com.

10:00

to get free shipping on 365 day returns. Welcome,

10:10

Maddie Strav, to Trust Me. Thank you

10:12

so much for being here with us.

10:14

Of course. Anytime. We really

10:16

appreciate you coming on because this is such a vulnerable

10:18

place to be coming from, where

10:21

you are the daughter of someone with

10:23

such an extreme history, and I'm sure

10:25

there's a lot to tackle there emotionally,

10:27

so thank you. Of course. So you're

10:29

here with us today because you are

10:31

the daughter of Amy Carlson, who,

10:33

for those who have not seen the docuseries,

10:35

Love Has Won, which you are also on.

10:37

She was the leader of that group, and

10:40

she was the one who was found dead in

10:42

her home and being treated as though she was

10:44

still alive. Can you just start

10:46

us kind of at the beginning of your

10:48

story and your childhood, you were still with

10:51

your mom up until about age five, is

10:53

that right? Seven. Seven. So what

10:55

do you remember of her? What were those years

10:57

like? Yeah. So

10:59

I wasn't with her for very long. She

11:02

did give up her rights for

11:04

parenting me when I was very little. So

11:06

my grandma took over for a long time.

11:10

However, she was still kind of in and out of

11:12

my life at the time. As a kid,

11:14

I didn't really think she

11:16

was going through anything

11:18

or like crazy or

11:21

any type of way, like people are saying, and she

11:23

was very normal. She treated

11:25

me like her daughter. She was a mom to

11:28

me. She just couldn't

11:30

be in a parent way.

11:33

But yeah, I mean, she would come pick me

11:35

and my brother, we would go to a park

11:37

or something, and my brother was learning how to

11:39

skateboard. So this is kind of like a little

11:41

story of how she was

11:44

a parent to me at the time. Yeah.

11:46

So my older brother, he was learning how

11:48

to skateboard. And obviously, as a little sister,

11:50

I wanted to be on that

11:53

skateboard too. Right. So

11:55

he pushed me down this really big hill.

11:57

And yeah, my mom just comes running after

11:59

me. And that

12:02

was probably like the most mom

12:04

point in that moment. She

12:07

hugged me. I'm wearing just like this princess costume.

12:09

I wish I could find a picture. I used

12:12

to have a picture, but not sure where it's

12:15

at the moment. But I had this big gash

12:17

on my knee and she banished

12:19

me all up. And that was probably

12:21

like the biggest moment that I do

12:23

remember with her. But that's kind of

12:25

how she was throughout my entire life

12:28

of knowing her. So she

12:30

had like normal maternal instincts. Your

12:32

family had no reason to think that she would just

12:34

kind of up and disappear one day. Right.

12:37

My nana, she could

12:39

tell you. My mom wasn't

12:41

super big on having kids growing up.

12:43

I know she went through a lot

12:45

of things with different guys and a

12:47

lot of pregnancy scares, but she was

12:49

never really big on having kids. But

12:52

she did care whenever we were there. I

12:55

know she cared. She just didn't necessarily

12:57

know how to parent, which

12:59

is an issue day to

13:02

day. So she was pretty

13:04

normal. Had those maternal

13:06

instincts. You know, in the

13:08

documentary, your grandmother was talking about how

13:11

she was like a manager at McDonald's

13:13

and it seemed like she was moving

13:15

up. And she could have

13:17

had this career in management and

13:19

then something just happened one day.

13:21

Yeah, it was like literally like

13:23

a light switch. Wow. Is

13:25

there does your family have theories about

13:28

what happened? What changed? So

13:30

the first guy in the documentary, the

13:32

older man, when she met

13:34

him, that's when everything started to go downhill.

13:37

We didn't know anything about it. And

13:39

it just one day, it just it

13:41

just switched. And it's just crazy how

13:44

it happened. And we don't really have

13:46

like definite theories about

13:48

kind of what happened. We

13:51

knew she was going through something. It was

13:53

never like we thought she was going

13:55

to leave. And when they talk about

13:57

in the documentary, how about. how

14:00

she just up and leaves dinner.

14:03

I mean, it sounds crazy that no one

14:05

went to go after her, but you gotta

14:07

think, in that situation, she didn't tell anyone

14:10

what she was doing. She could have been

14:12

going to the bathroom, you know? So we

14:14

didn't, no one knew that she was just

14:17

gonna not come back whenever she

14:19

just up and left. So it

14:21

was legit, she got up and

14:24

just went out the door. It was so wild.

14:26

And never came back. It feels

14:28

like she maybe was having some

14:30

ideas as somebody who's gone down

14:32

many spiritual or rabbit hole myself.

14:35

She met somebody who kind of had

14:37

like-minded thoughts as her and maybe it

14:39

just kind of doubled down from there.

14:41

The older man that, and I believe

14:43

she married him, am I correct? She

14:45

married him. Yeah, it wasn't like a

14:48

marriage marriage, like it wasn't a real

14:50

marriage, but in their minds, yes. Yeah,

14:52

that's right. The documentary seems to kind

14:54

of, it talks about how she had like an

14:56

acid trip or something. I mean, we couldn't probably

14:58

theorize until the end of time and obviously, we

15:01

won't ever know the answer, but it's such a

15:03

crazy thing to do, to just walk out on

15:05

your family in the middle of dinner to the

15:07

point where everyone's like, wait, where'd she go? I

15:09

thought she was just in the bathroom. I mean,

15:12

that's a very extreme behavior. Do you remember that

15:14

night? I don't. I'm not sure

15:16

that I was there. It's

15:18

possible I was with my grandma

15:21

that raised me. So I don't

15:23

think I was there that night. And

15:25

do you remember your feelings after?

15:28

What was sort of your sense of what had happened? So

15:32

no one really like told me. No one

15:34

came up to me and was like, my

15:36

brother's dad did for him. No

15:39

one came up to me and they were

15:41

like, hey, like your mom left and she's

15:43

not coming back. No one did that. It

15:46

was kind of one day

15:48

she left and no one told me. And

15:51

I just kind of figured out along the

15:53

way that she wasn't coming back. And I

15:55

spent literally years and years and

15:57

years trying to actually find her.

16:00

because no one was giving me information and

16:02

I was literally just left in the dark.

16:04

I'm not sure why I was left

16:06

in the dark. I've never really asked that

16:08

question before. But yeah, as far

16:10

as I can remember, no one told

16:12

me. And I would

16:15

spend my lunches with

16:17

my friends at school just

16:19

telling them like, hey, I'm trying to find my mom. Like,

16:21

can you help me do this? Can you look up her

16:24

name? I don't remember her

16:26

middle name. I'd be asking everyone like,

16:28

what's her middle name? What's her actual

16:30

last name right now? Like, what's going

16:32

on? And no one was giving me

16:35

any types of answers until my brother

16:37

actually told me what was going on.

16:40

And I think I was 13 when that happened.

16:43

And he gave me her email to email her so

16:45

you can see in the documentary,

16:47

like that email that pops up. It was

16:49

a very angry email. And I

16:51

don't regret sending it. Can you explain what the

16:54

email what the gist of it was? It was

16:56

kind of just like, I can't believe you would ever

16:59

do this. I can't believe you would leave. I don't

17:01

understand. You

17:03

did me so wrong. Like, I could have

17:05

had a mom growing up and you didn't

17:07

even give me that option. And

17:11

stuff like that. It was an

17:13

intense email for a 13 year

17:15

old to send. I mean, I

17:17

think it's awesome that you sent that you

17:20

like, yeah, set up for yourself and basically

17:23

said I deserve better behavior from my mother,

17:25

which you absolutely did. And aren't family dynamics

17:27

yet so strange, like the things we stay

17:29

quiet about and just don't talk about. And

17:31

it's like the things in families where it's

17:33

just nobody is like, you're like, to this

17:35

day, I still don't really know why nobody

17:37

told me. And I

17:39

have things like that. And my it's just

17:42

so strange, like family secrets, family, pippa wing,

17:44

these are the things we do not talk

17:46

about. Yeah, always, always a little family cult

17:48

inside of all cults, you know, it's always

17:51

some good times. Yeah. So when your brother

17:53

tells you about her, first of all, how

17:55

did he know what was happening? He

17:57

did a lot more. up

18:00

research than I could have done.

18:02

So he found her YouTube channel

18:04

and sent it to me too.

18:07

And at the time it

18:09

was first contact

18:12

group starlight

18:14

something. And

18:17

then they changed their name to love

18:19

as one. And, you know,

18:21

whenever he did tell me about it,

18:24

I was in shock. I couldn't believe

18:26

my ears. I

18:28

was like, is this actually my life right

18:30

now? Is this actually what my mother,

18:32

the woman who gave birth to me

18:34

is doing right now? It was

18:38

just absolutely crazy to

18:40

me. And I went

18:42

on this spiral of trying to find

18:44

everything out. And we

18:47

found her Skype, or I did personally, and I

18:49

sent it to my family. But I

18:51

reached out

18:54

to her on there. And I also had her phone number.

18:56

So it was the first time in almost

19:00

seven years that I had actual contact

19:02

with her. And the whole time

19:04

when we were on the phone, it was, Maddie's

19:07

like, you're the love of my

19:09

life. I never wanted to

19:12

do you wrong. But here's

19:14

what's happening. And she would tell me

19:16

all this stuff that I just didn't

19:18

understand about the galactic and Robin

19:21

Williams. And I also told her at

19:23

the time, my grandfather I just passed,

19:26

which was her stepdad. And so I

19:28

told her and she blatantly just comes

19:30

out said, I already knew he came

19:32

to me in a dream. I was

19:35

like, Oh, okay, that's a little odd. So

19:37

I probably just wasn't the first person to

19:40

tell her and she didn't want to tell

19:42

me that she may. It just it sounded

19:44

very odd. When she was talking to me

19:46

about it, nothing sounded real. It sounded like

19:48

a delusion. Basically, when you found

19:50

that YouTube channel for any listeners who haven't seen

19:52

the doc yet, when you found the YouTube

19:55

channel, what did you see? Like

19:57

what was sort of your understanding of her

19:59

of what she believed in what she

20:01

was telling people? Still to do this

20:03

day I really don't understand what she

20:05

was believing in. What

20:07

she seemed to believe, yeah.

20:10

Right, right. She

20:13

loved attention, you know. She

20:15

has always been like that.

20:18

I'm the same way I do love

20:20

attention as well. She took it in a

20:22

different direction than what

20:29

was intended, I guess. And

20:32

in the documentary it just went,

20:34

they talk about how it just went too

20:37

far. She got too far into it and

20:40

she couldn't go back. But wanting,

20:43

she was believing in these

20:47

galactic starships that

20:49

were, so basically the universe,

20:51

aliens, stuff like that is what I

20:53

gathered. That she

20:56

was receiving these powers,

20:58

these mind powers, to

21:02

be able to heal the community. And

21:06

she also thought that

21:08

she was reincarnated

21:11

from all these celebrities,

21:14

public figures, religious

21:18

aspects, you

21:20

know. Who

21:22

were dead, right? So it was Robin

21:25

Williams. It was the big

21:27

one. Marilyn Monroe was the big one.

21:31

It's almost like she just poured a little

21:33

bit of a bunch of different stuff in

21:35

a pot and mixed it all up. Yeah,

21:37

that's pretty much what she did. It

21:40

seemed like a lot of QAnon beliefs as well.

21:42

They had a collage of all of the different

21:44

galactic and all of them are dead except for

21:46

Trump. There were a lot of Trump-oriented

21:49

beliefs, some anti-Semitic conspiracy theories in

21:52

there as well. But

21:54

basically it's like it's new age. It's a

21:57

lot of new age stuff. It's a lot

21:59

of conspiracy. theory stuff and she

22:01

is the mother god is how she

22:03

was presenting it. She is actual god

22:05

on earth, the female

22:07

version. Yes, that's exactly what she

22:09

was believing and

22:11

it doesn't help that everyone was literally just

22:13

pumping her brain with all this ego. That's

22:16

all it was, was a big

22:18

ego pump,

22:23

I guess you could say.

22:25

Her followers deeply loved her,

22:27

like deeply. It was

22:30

almost like... She still has some, right? Yeah,

22:32

she still has one. They don't

22:34

reach out to me or anything at all. There

22:38

are some that are, they loved

22:40

her, absolutely loved her. And it

22:43

was almost like an addiction or an

22:46

obsession of how much

22:48

they loved this woman. And

22:51

it was very uncomfortable to me because I

22:56

didn't receive that type of love. Yeah,

22:58

I just thought of that. Mother god,

23:00

you're like, you're my mother. Well, I

23:02

was gonna be my mom. Yeah, they're

23:04

literally calling her mom over and over

23:06

again in the documentary. Is

23:08

that pain? Did you watch the whole thing? Yeah,

23:11

I've seen it multiple times, reeling

23:14

in all the different types of information that I

23:16

actually didn't know before

23:19

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24:41

to kind of get people up to

24:43

speed on what Amy was actually doing

24:45

during this time when she wasn't being an

24:47

actual mother to her children. She

24:50

left her kids. She started

24:52

telling people she's Mother God. She

24:54

started an online presence selling these

24:56

like spiritual sessions and doing this

24:58

live streaming which I don't even

25:00

really fully understand how that

25:03

all came together. But she starts

25:05

attracting these followers who help her

25:07

revamp the website and build her

25:09

social media presence. And that presence

25:11

grows. And then eventually some

25:14

of these followers are told to come view

25:16

with her in person. So now she has

25:18

this in-person cult who really genuinely believe that

25:20

she is God and everything that she says

25:22

goes. And you kind of

25:24

can see in the docuseries because so

25:26

much of it was filmed, you can

25:28

see how much the wildest demands or

25:31

the weirdest demands. They will find a

25:33

justification for it. There's a reason why it's good

25:35

for them, why it's a lesson. It's

25:37

God's will. Yeah, I mean it's these

25:39

people who seem like otherwise normal people.

25:41

Most of them, the way they talk

25:43

just seems like someone you would meet

25:45

on the street. They fell down this

25:48

like Amy Carlson rabbit hole. And then

25:50

the other element that was happening was

25:52

that when she would get a romantic

25:54

partner, that person would become father God

25:56

to compliment her as the mother God, right?

25:59

So when you start... started to get in touch with

26:01

her finally after all this time, how often

26:03

were you guys communicating? It

26:06

was like once a month

26:08

or so, a few months.

26:11

At the time, I just kind

26:13

of took into consideration what she

26:15

was doing. I was trying to

26:18

build a relationship with my mom,

26:20

so I didn't want to

26:23

come at her in a negative

26:25

way. I

26:28

tried my best to have the

26:31

most normal conversation I

26:33

could with her. You could

26:36

tell from the Skype messages,

26:38

we were texting more

26:40

often than we would talk on the

26:43

phone or anything. You

26:46

could tell if she was actually

26:48

talking to me because when she

26:50

would send her texts, it would

26:52

be in all caps. Her assistant,

26:54

if it was her assistant texting

26:56

me, it would be in lowercase.

26:58

That's how you could tell who

27:01

was talking to

27:03

me at the time. You could

27:05

also tell with the

27:07

words that were being said. I'm

27:09

not sure if she would

27:12

tell her assistant what

27:14

to say or if her

27:16

assistant was just trying to keep

27:18

me a secret in some type

27:20

of way. I'm

27:23

not sure, but I told

27:25

her a lot of things. I told

27:28

her what was going on in my

27:30

life at the time because I wanted

27:32

her to be proud of me. She

27:34

would send me a happy birthday text

27:36

every year for my birthday. This

27:38

went on for a good five years where

27:42

I would talk to her from time to time. She would

27:44

send me a birthday text. It

27:47

would just go on about her

27:49

day. At this time, it

27:52

seemed normal over text. If

27:54

I were to go in depth with her

27:56

in a conversation, it wasn't normal

27:58

anymore. Her

28:00

imagine. That she will talk about

28:02

getting whatever run afoul I was getting

28:05

progressively weird or did you notice that

28:07

at all? or oh, No.

28:09

I don't think I talk to

28:11

her that makes you don't really

28:14

notice if it was getting like

28:16

that. I am. I really try to

28:18

keep my distance from her. Because.

28:21

She. Used to want to get me

28:23

to come this that her and and

28:25

can be and the court with her

28:27

and I just I didn't know anything

28:29

to do with her and I didn't

28:31

agree with anything that she was saying

28:34

so why would I know? Of course

28:36

I want to see you buy you

28:38

can come see me you know if

28:40

he really once in the it goes

28:42

both ways so negative things and as

28:45

you didn't. Yeah. I

28:47

mean, I could see his. you know, when

28:49

I was. Thirty. Nine believes in

28:51

a profit and I found these like

28:53

letters and I just instantly been six

28:56

years. You know you're so am I

28:58

Mean, not that you're so lucky, but

29:00

I'm just glad that you weren't been

29:02

influenced by the fact that you wanted

29:04

to have a mother to actually go

29:06

and bring in that group because I

29:08

can imagine that would have gone very

29:10

well. And yeah, I can imagine what

29:12

would happen if I ever showed up

29:14

one day. I buy probably wouldn't have

29:16

given no I don't think you other

29:18

scary thing. but yeah, one of the

29:20

scariest. Things about her followers that sometimes

29:22

she seems to like come to a

29:25

little that and be like not other

29:27

god and I know you are erasure

29:29

for surface or for sir are yeah

29:31

I I've never seen anything like that

29:33

before and I can't even imagine if

29:35

they that had mother gods daughter was

29:38

magical powers. They had my god sex

29:40

on T L A C so young.

29:43

Yeah, yeah, very scary.

29:45

So Miles and she

29:47

actually believed my little

29:49

brother was. Gonna

29:52

be like the next Whatever

29:54

own in her sequence. Wow.

29:57

Yeah. and so She

30:00

had some type of special energy,

30:03

I guess, coming off of him and she really thought

30:05

that he was going to do something

30:07

with it one day. But in reality, I'm

30:09

probably the most spiritual out of the siblings.

30:13

And I believe in like energies and stuff

30:15

like that. But it's not how she believed

30:17

it at all. Did your brother ever see

30:19

her in person? No, he was too little.

30:22

He doesn't have any memories

30:24

with her whatsoever, nor does he actually

30:27

really care for it. My

30:29

little brother, yeah. So me

30:32

and my older brother kind of had more of a

30:35

relationship with her than he did.

30:37

And he never was even interested

30:40

in pursuing a relationship with

30:42

her. Were you kind of offended that she was

30:44

choosing him instead of you, even though you didn't

30:46

want to go? A

30:49

little bit, honestly, a little bit. And I

30:51

think it's just, you know, big sister energy.

30:55

So just kind of again, recap

30:57

what we see in the doc, just

31:00

for anyone who hasn't watched it. So

31:02

there are these different father gods. And

31:04

then this sort of final father

31:06

god comes into the picture. She

31:09

had had a different father god, aka

31:11

just like a boyfriend or whatever. And he

31:13

was like, maybe there's another one instead,

31:15

in addition to me. So this new guy

31:17

comes in. Jason? Yeah. Who

31:21

is this man with the

31:23

criminal history? Handsome,

31:25

clearly unhinged. Yeah,

31:27

he's a complete

31:30

psychopath. Continue. Absolutely.

31:32

Yeah. Absolutely. A

31:34

major psychopath. It seems like there's this general

31:37

sense that like he's the one who kind

31:39

of really led to her demise. Do

31:41

you have any opinions on that, having kind

31:43

of knowing what you know now? You

31:46

know, after I watched the documentary,

31:48

I really was irritated

31:51

and pissed off about the whole

31:53

situation. Because

31:55

I, you know, she probably would have been

31:57

alive today. He

32:00

never came into the picture and he

32:02

even says it in the documentary. I killed another

32:04

god straight up. That's what he says So

32:07

yeah, the fact that he

32:09

can admit it. Um, really just just

32:11

took a toll on me and um uh

32:17

Yeah Just he's like he

32:19

was like smoking math

32:22

right and

32:24

just taking her into the

32:26

deep like deepest depths of

32:28

she's already in in the

32:31

very precarious spot

32:33

mentally and he's adding like

32:36

meth to it. Um Wow

32:39

And yeah, and yeah, and she had

32:41

a drinking problem and it seemed like

32:43

he really enabled and worsened that It

32:45

seems like honestly everybody did and then

32:47

you know He's it seemed like he

32:49

would be like yelling or verbally abusive

32:52

and then she just started going down

32:54

this darker and darker path.

32:56

Yeah, I I wrote a quote down of

32:59

one of her followers a clip that

33:01

they show from That time

33:03

where one of her followers literally says we're

33:05

transitioning out of needing sleep

33:07

and food so it

33:10

just like became so dangerous

33:14

so dangerous It

33:16

was a very dangerous quote to be in

33:18

that is for sure especially

33:21

towards the end like I'm

33:23

in the beginning. I feel like it was

33:25

very innocent but Then it

33:28

started to take a turn like you

33:30

said Um into something I

33:33

can't even explain it. It was

33:35

so horrible to even imagine What

33:37

these people were going through? Yeah

33:40

They keep saying it's Robin. Will he the spirit of

33:42

Robin Williams that's saying this needs to happen I

33:45

wonder if any of those people will ever

33:47

wake up because if they do I can't

33:49

imagine the like pain that they're going to

33:51

be In over what over the reality of

33:53

the situation. It's actually shocking that this didn't

33:55

become More dangerous like i'm

33:57

surprised it didn't end in a heaven's gate or

34:00

a Jonestown kind of wall. Yeah.

34:04

It's really scary because the people

34:06

there fully believe, completely.

34:08

I mean, to the point where they're

34:10

appearing in the documentary, like still defending

34:12

everything and- Admitting to

34:14

basically a murder. Yeah.

34:16

Yeah. Like, that's how much they believe it.

34:18

They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, then we said,

34:21

yeah, we won't give you food. And blah, blah,

34:23

blah. And you're like, what the hell? You're taking

34:25

more coital sliver while your liver is feeling. Let's

34:27

talk about the coital sliver for her.

34:30

Oh my god. Whenever I

34:32

found out about that, whenever I saw pictures

34:34

of her, especially seeing her on Dr. Phil,

34:36

because my family didn't tell me that was

34:38

happening until like two weeks before that I

34:40

was looking at. And yeah.

34:43

So seeing

34:46

her, look, the way she did, she was almost

34:50

leaning towards being purple. And then you

34:53

would see at the end of the documentary

34:56

how actually purple she was. And it

34:58

was insane to see her like that.

35:01

It was unrecognizable. Because

35:03

if you look at pictures from when she was young,

35:06

my age, she was

35:09

beautiful. She had gorgeous hair,

35:11

gorgeous face. And

35:13

then you look at her. Yes,

35:15

absolutely. You look

35:17

at her going through these years while she's

35:20

in this cult. And she just is

35:22

unrecognizable. I don't recognize her anymore

35:24

as my mom. Yeah.

35:28

That was probably the hardest part was seeing

35:30

her the way that she was

35:32

portrayed on the documentary. Yeah.

35:35

I can't imagine how hard that

35:37

is. Because even when just someone

35:40

is sick for normal human

35:43

reasons, as

35:45

people get older or whatever, watching

35:47

that transition is so hard, it

35:50

seems so much more painful when

35:52

you know that it's coming from

35:54

them and this community that they've

35:56

created. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

35:58

for anyone who doesn't know, I'm what colloidal

36:00

silver is, it's a

36:02

supplement that new

36:05

age is commonly promoted by

36:07

new age types of people. If you take too

36:09

much of it, it can damage your liver and

36:11

also turn your skin blue. So that was something

36:13

they were taking a lot of and kind of

36:15

using it as a cure all and also selling

36:17

to people on the internet. Yeah.

36:20

They were using it more. So

36:23

it was actually used back

36:25

in the day before chemotherapy

36:27

was made as a chemotherapy

36:29

for cancer and everything. But

36:33

that's kind of how, yeah, interesting

36:35

stuff for sure, but it's definitely

36:38

taken an accumulant amount as

36:40

she was taking it is detrimental

36:42

to your body. Yeah.

36:44

Yeah. And you know, when

36:46

you're drinking that much and then also doing

36:48

taking an additional thing that's additionally harming

36:51

your liver and your body, I mean,

36:53

that's, you're poisoning yourself basically toward the end,

36:55

she would maybe say, should I go to

36:57

the hospital? And then one

37:00

of her followers said, but then the, what

37:03

are they called? The being the galactic said, no,

37:05

she shouldn't. Do you think that that means that

37:08

your mom was saying that no, she shouldn't?

37:10

Or do you think that means the followers

37:12

were saying, no, she shouldn't? Oh, definitely the

37:14

followers. I believe my mom actually like woke

37:17

up in the end and no one

37:19

was listening to her.

37:22

So it is, it is, it's so horrible.

37:25

And the fact that none of them

37:28

got convicted for anything charges

37:31

dropped nothing. So there's like, I

37:33

get no closure. Yeah.

37:36

So there was a

37:39

criminal case that was brought,

37:41

what happened exactly? Um,

37:44

I am not super,

37:46

super sure. I was listening

37:48

to the trial and everything. Everyone was, it's

37:54

because it was a religious act. Basically

37:56

all charges got dropped. Oh

37:59

my God. Yeah,

38:02

I think that's what happened. Don't

38:04

quote me on it. I think

38:06

that's what happened. But yeah, I

38:09

listened to the trial when it was

38:11

happening and I just continued

38:13

each inmate that they would bring in

38:17

charges dropped, charges dropped, charges dropped. And that

38:19

was, okay, correct me if I'm wrong, I

38:21

feel like I have a vague memory of

38:23

reading about it and seeing that. That was

38:25

maybe because it was more about what they

38:28

did after she

38:30

died as a ritual with her

38:32

body. Was

38:34

there a case about how she was

38:36

not given treatment or taken to the

38:39

hospital before she died? Nope, nothing. Wow.

38:42

But yeah,

38:44

so it was all on film, you know,

38:47

what they were doing, every single thing

38:50

that they did day to day, all

38:52

on film. That's what she wanted. She

38:54

wanted people to basically

38:56

like film her life, like a

38:58

reality TV show. And

39:01

I think she did it in

39:03

the wrong way, honestly. She

39:06

wanted this famous aspect

39:09

and she got it

39:11

in a completely different

39:13

way than what normal people

39:15

would do. Right. I

39:18

mean, that's just like so fucking

39:20

wild that, I mean, there is,

39:23

they literally say on camera openly, like,

39:25

this alcohol is her medicine, she needs

39:27

her medicine, here we are. Then

39:29

it goes into what we always are thinking about. It's like,

39:31

how responsible are you after your

39:34

brainwash? Well, I mean, for sure,

39:36

that's a valid question. But I

39:38

mean, in terms of like leading

39:40

to someone's death. Yeah, I know.

39:42

Opening investigation seems like the minimum

39:44

response. For sure. You know, it's

39:46

such a disaster, perfect storm of

39:49

just wildness. It's truly one of

39:51

the craziest stories I've ever seen in my

39:53

entire life. Hello,

39:55

I'm Ravi Achadri. I invite you to join

39:57

me every Tuesday for new episodes of nighty

40:00

night bedtime stories to keep you awake

40:02

now on podcast one. This new incarnation

40:04

of nighty night is an anthology of

40:06

stories that bring to life classic horror

40:09

stories. Some you're definitely familiar with and

40:11

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40:13

time. Join me as I tuck you

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into bed with stories that will leave

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episodes of nighty night every Tuesday

40:21

wherever you get your podcasts. I

40:30

want to go back in time a little bit

40:32

Dr. Phil. There was this period where your grandma

40:34

and your aunt were kind of trying to get

40:36

her help. You said nobody told you about Dr.

40:39

Phil till after. Did they talk to you about

40:41

it? Yeah. After? They did talk to me a

40:44

little bit after. Yeah, for sure. They

40:46

talked to me about it and

40:48

you know they basically said and

40:51

even the documentary says they

40:53

told me kind of that he didn't

40:56

do anything. Basically it was all a

40:58

ploy. So at first like years

41:00

ago we reached out and

41:02

he was like nah I'm not about it. It's a

41:04

good story for me. I don't want to work with

41:06

you. And then

41:08

they kind of found out about my

41:10

mom and kind of reached out to

41:12

us and it

41:15

kind of just went from there. All

41:17

the Dr. Phil episodes

41:20

were for clout basically for

41:24

him to get this crazy story that no

41:26

one's gotten before and bash

41:30

everyone on live

41:32

tv. Oh I know

41:35

I hate Dr. Phil. Can I

41:37

just say I think he is

41:39

the fucking worst. He whole week's

41:42

point is so yeah he and

41:44

your mom's so excited because she thought she's

41:46

going to share this message through Oprah and

41:49

then she's like oh my god it's actually

41:51

going to be Dr. Phil that I'm sharing

41:53

the message through. Of course like universe

41:55

you're so funny and so she's excited thinking that

41:57

this is going to be her way to. spread

42:00

the galaxy to everybody's TV

42:02

and meanwhile they're just looking

42:04

forward to her looking like

42:06

an asshole. But and

42:09

your grandma and your aunt are thinking,

42:11

okay, maybe they're going to actually get

42:13

her help. Maybe she can actually, you

42:15

know, get the psychiatric care that she

42:17

needs, but none of that

42:19

happened, right? Nope, nothing. They didn't

42:21

even offer like therapy to the

42:24

family afterwards. Nothing. We

42:27

got nothing. So

42:29

going was basically like a waste

42:31

of time. Yeah, and it sent her

42:33

downward too. I

42:35

mean, it did not do her any

42:38

favors. He did not help her whatsoever.

42:41

What was her reaction to when she

42:43

saw the show? My mom's reaction? I

42:45

don't know how she reacted

42:47

per se. I

42:50

didn't really know anything about it. She

42:53

didn't really talk about it. I

42:55

know she was angry. It

42:58

was like a shock for her of

43:01

what Dr. Phil actually was talking about

43:03

on the show. She

43:09

was basically put in a trap is

43:11

what happened because she didn't know about my

43:13

family going and

43:17

confronting her about everything. And

43:21

yeah, so she was pissed. And you can

43:23

see a clip after of

43:26

her actually pissed about the whole thing

43:28

and that she felt

43:31

betrayed by her family

43:33

when that wasn't supposed to be the case

43:35

at all. It was supposed to be, we want you

43:37

to come back. We want you

43:39

to come back. We want

43:41

to get you help. So please let us help you.

43:44

But Dr. Phil turned it into entertainment

43:47

and it's really fucked up. It's fucked

43:49

up what he did and people are promoting it

43:51

and it's ridiculous. It

43:54

seemed like your family was

43:56

just like trying anything. They're

43:58

like, we don't know. She's not

44:00

going to come back home of her own

44:02

accord. She's too deep in

44:04

this community and beliefs. And

44:09

so maybe someone on

44:11

the outside, someone putting

44:13

her on TV will be helpful. They're

44:15

just looking for anything, right? Because nothing

44:18

else has worked at that point. Exactly.

44:21

Yeah. We were also just trying

44:23

to get her story out there for anyone who had

44:25

listened to help her. Everyone,

44:28

it wasn't taken seriously. You know,

44:31

the situation was taken in a

44:34

very lighthearted way. And

44:38

yeah, I mean, I wish we

44:40

could have gotten the help because that's what all

44:42

I wanted was for my mom to come back home.

44:46

Ever since she left, that's all I wanted.

44:48

Yeah. Just for her to come back

44:50

home because what, you know, daughter wouldn't want that.

44:52

Even though I was raised by amazing people, I

44:56

still wanted someone to call mom. And

44:58

I was jealous growing up of all

45:00

these kids that could call, you

45:02

know, like, hey, mom, what's up? Hey, dad, how's

45:04

it going? You know, I didn't have that growing

45:06

at all. I

45:09

can just imagine how helpless that's

45:12

got to make you feel in your

45:14

family. Like, you know, the

45:17

closest I can kind of relate to it

45:19

is like loving someone because I have a

45:21

loved one who's struggled with addiction

45:23

and it is now totally disrupted

45:25

their being, their existence because

45:27

now they have a brain injury. But

45:29

you know, the closest I can relate is

45:31

like you're watching someone destroy themselves and you're

45:33

like, please just come back, just come back,

45:36

we'll get you help. And there's

45:38

just nothing you can do because they're an adult and

45:40

you can't, you know, but it's

45:42

so painful. It's so painful. And then

45:45

add in the world laughing at them. Yeah.

45:49

Yeah. Can you talk to us

45:51

a little bit about what happened in Hawaii? Because that

45:53

seemed to be a big part of the

45:55

story. Yeah. It was

45:57

huge. It was a huge part of the story. Yeah. huge

46:00

thing because it

46:03

was crazy because even the the

46:05

president of Hawaii knew who me

46:07

and my brothers were. I was like, oh,

46:10

this is a little weird. Yeah,

46:12

they knew that she had

46:14

left us. They knew everything.

46:16

And I guess because whenever

46:19

she came, you know, it

46:21

was very public that

46:23

she was there in Hawaii and

46:26

who she was saying

46:28

that she was. I can't remember the

46:31

spirit that she was

46:34

trying to portray, but that's what pissed

46:36

off them. The residents so

46:38

bad because they were like, you

46:40

are nothing to us.

46:42

You're nothing but a piece of

46:45

shit. You left your

46:47

kids. You left your husband. You

46:50

left everything to do what

46:52

to be fake, you know,

46:54

that they were extremely upset

46:56

and they were throwing, you know,

47:00

like they were throwing things at

47:02

the house that they were in. They were

47:04

throwing things at her car that she

47:07

was leaving in whenever she was

47:09

finally like fed up and said,

47:11

okay, fine, I'm leaving. Yada,

47:14

yada. And, you know, there's

47:16

signs that the residents

47:18

were holding up and said, go back

47:21

home to Madison, Aiden and

47:23

Cole. Wow. Sam, that is so that

47:25

would be so weird. Yeah, they show

47:27

a clip of that

47:29

in the documentary and I

47:32

went white. I went completely white because I knew

47:35

nothing about that. And I didn't even know these

47:37

people knew who we were. So

47:40

that's so great. So it

47:42

was a shock factor for real. And they

47:44

were and they were also upset because she,

47:48

it seemed like they were also upset because she, it

47:50

was sacrilege because she was claiming to be God and

47:52

they were like, you're not God. I mean, she was

47:55

already really ill at that point, struggling to walk and,

47:57

you know, continuing to be fed.

48:00

Boiled silver. Yeah, going into organ

48:02

failure. No

48:04

food. That's what was happening that

48:06

entire year. It kind

48:08

of felt like exactly what

48:11

was happening. Somebody with anorexia and

48:13

alcoholism like just got a bunch

48:15

of people to help them act

48:18

out those two diseases,

48:20

like unconsciously. You're nodding. Yeah.

48:23

Yeah. It was good. You, in

48:25

a TikTok, said that she left

48:27

a man in the woods to

48:29

die. What was that referring to?

48:31

So that was before the Dr.

48:34

Phil episode. That's how Dr. Phil found out about

48:37

everything because the sister of that man

48:39

reached out and was like, these people

48:41

need help. I

48:45

don't really know the

48:47

whole, whole story about what happened, but from

48:49

the gist of it, from what the sister

48:51

was saying, she

48:54

had gotten mad at one

48:56

of the previous father gods. I'm

49:01

not sure if this actually happened,

49:04

but this is what

49:06

I was told. She

49:08

basically put him on a drug

49:12

trip and they were

49:14

having fun. She

49:17

was like, hey, follow me here. They took

49:19

him and they left him.

49:22

He was naked and he

49:28

didn't know where he was. He

49:30

was tripping on some drug. I

49:33

don't know if it was acid,

49:35

shrooms, whatever. They stumbled

49:37

onto a main road

49:41

naked and

49:44

they took him to the hospital. I did

49:46

him, yada, yada, yada. That's how that whole

49:48

thing went. I'm not sure why it

49:51

wasn't included in the

49:53

documentary. That was a big turning point

49:55

in the whole cold

50:01

pretty much. Yeah, because what

50:03

happened after that? They went

50:06

on the run or what? No

50:08

idea. I think that's

50:10

probably when they went into Oregon

50:12

is when that situation happened. So

50:15

that's kind of how

50:17

the timeline went. But yeah. Once

50:20

they got to Oregon, all bets are off.

50:22

They're in Oregon and it is chaos. Yeah,

50:24

pretty much. They kind of been moving

50:27

around periodically throughout this whole time, right?

50:29

There was one point I was told

50:31

when I was younger that they were

50:34

in Florida, but no one mentioned Florida

50:36

anywhere. So I'm not

50:38

sure if they actually had a house

50:40

in Florida or what, but from my

50:42

knowledge, they had a house in Florida,

50:45

Colorado, and Oregon. Those were kind of

50:47

her three stomping grounds. And

50:50

yeah, they would jump everywhere

50:53

over there. All the weak legal states.

50:57

Oh, well, how

51:01

are they getting the money to fund this? The

51:03

stuff that they were selling online? So

51:05

the little quittle silver, all of those

51:08

supplements that they were selling, the live

51:10

streams, people would send gifts, people would

51:12

donate, like thousands and

51:15

thousands of dollars to

51:19

her for all

51:21

the things that they were doing. And plus

51:24

she did healing sessions that she would charge

51:26

for. So people would

51:28

come to her with like a

51:30

physical issue and she would heal

51:32

them and they would

51:35

pay her for it. So they

51:37

were receiving an acuminous amount of

51:39

money that was being untaxed too.

51:42

And I'm not sure how they

51:45

did not get caught in anything that they were

51:47

doing. But yeah, that's

51:49

kind of how she received

51:52

all that money. It seemed like business was

51:54

really booming for a while there around the

51:56

period where everyone kind of was coming to

51:59

live with her. And then it seems

52:02

like watching the doc that that's part

52:05

of why it was so shocking when,

52:07

you know, circa Hawaii and after, it

52:09

seems like people don't like her anymore.

52:12

And I have to imagine that contributed as well.

52:15

Like feeling like she's fallen, you know. From

52:18

Grace. I mean, contributed to the end. Yeah,

52:21

to her unstable state on top

52:23

of all the physical stuff that

52:25

was happening. Can

52:27

you tell us about the text that

52:29

she sent you before she died? Yeah, on

52:31

Skype. Yeah. So

52:34

the first thing she sent me was

52:36

Love You Sweet Angel in Portland to

52:38

visit Cole, my brother. Most

52:42

of the messages, Skype deleted. So

52:45

there was stuff before that. But

52:47

I'm not sure how it works, but

52:50

it was all deleted whenever I went back to

52:52

it. And then she sent me a link to

52:54

a YouTube video. So I'm guessing I

52:56

never clicked on the link, but I'm guessing it was probably

52:58

one of her videos

53:02

that she did talking about

53:04

my brother, maybe. And

53:07

then she sends me Love You

53:09

Happy B Day, Our Sweet Love

53:11

Angel. Love you. So

53:14

have a brilliant love joy filled

53:16

day. And

53:18

then she explains to me that she

53:20

remembers going into labor with

53:23

me and how intense it was and that

53:25

she was hanging on to the rails. And

53:29

she said, I was pleading with you

53:31

to come out stubborn tourist, LOL. And

53:35

then she says your brother could not wait to

53:37

come out. You were like, nope,

53:40

LOL. So it was very weird,

53:43

the way she worded

53:45

things, I guess, and how she was talking. I

53:47

was like, she was on drugs or drunk all

53:50

the time, which she was. So

53:53

she would send me a lot of emojis. She

53:57

would ask me to please contact her as soon

53:59

as possible. And then

54:01

it switches to lowercase,

54:04

you know, so all of that

54:07

above was uppercase now in lowercase.

54:09

No. So

54:12

this is the next year after that. This

54:14

was 2018. She

54:17

said, I love you. Happy B Day. My

54:20

loving daughter of love. I love you so much.

54:23

You know, and I'm looking at these texts and

54:26

I'm like, you love me so much, but you're

54:28

not here. You were never there for me. Right.

54:30

So it's very like, how can

54:32

you say you love me so much, call me all

54:34

these things and not

54:37

be there for me as a mom. You left

54:39

me, you know. So

54:42

I was pissed. I didn't answer her

54:44

for three years. Three years I didn't

54:46

answer her. And she sent it again the

54:48

next year. So

54:51

she would still text you for those years.

54:53

Yeah. It was mostly just a happy birthday

54:55

text is what I would receive.

54:58

I mean, those, yeah, that

55:00

that's gotta be just such emotional whiplash

55:02

because like, they sound so loving.

55:04

They sound like someone who really cares about you.

55:07

And you're like, but you're not here. This

55:09

like, what does this actually mean? This means

55:11

nothing. Right. So I totally understand why I

55:13

felt that way. Very

55:15

confusing time as a teenager,

55:18

because I was just 17 at the

55:20

time. Just got my license, you know, it was

55:23

wild. Wild, wild. How

55:27

did you get the news

55:29

that she had died? So

55:32

my aunt Chelsea, I was, I

55:34

will never forget, I was sitting

55:36

at a gas station. I received

55:39

an email and called from my aunt Chelsea.

55:42

And she

55:45

tells me she said, hey, just

55:47

got a call from Colorado

55:51

PD or whoever was on

55:53

the case at the time. And

55:55

they said that it

55:58

is possible that my mother

56:00

is death. And I said,

56:02

possible, in what way? Because

56:05

of how decomposed her body was

56:07

they couldn't get a perfect read

56:09

on who she was, you

56:11

know? And

56:13

she was basically mummified, you

56:16

know, like turning a decomposed

56:18

body. That's what it was.

56:21

And she tells

56:23

me, and out of nowhere,

56:25

I just left because

56:27

I couldn't believe it. I'm in

56:29

shock. I didn't really know how

56:31

to react. And I'm like, you're

56:34

lying. You can't you can't be

56:36

telling me this right now. She's

56:38

not actually dead. You know, I

56:40

was very confused. And

56:43

she was trying to tell me as fast

56:45

as she could before it got out into

56:48

the media, because it was huge.

56:50

That that whole thing was so

56:52

huge. It went worldwide.

56:55

Everyone around the world was talking about it at

56:57

the time. Yeah, we were talking about it. Yeah,

57:00

I mean, it's crazy. Who hears about

57:02

something like that? That it doesn't happen

57:04

every day. And I

57:07

don't think something like that has ever

57:09

happened in a lifetime. You know, I've

57:11

certainly never heard of it before. Yeah,

57:15

right. They found her where again,

57:18

she was in their new

57:21

house that they had, that

57:23

they had that. So

57:25

she died in that hotel in Oregon. And

57:27

then they drove her body all the way

57:29

back to Colorado, to the place

57:31

that they lived, made a shrine out of

57:33

her in her bedroom, wrapped her

57:35

in a sleeping bag and a Christmas light.

57:38

And yeah,

57:40

just left her there. If they thought she

57:43

was gonna not go live, right? They did.

57:45

They did. That's what they thought was going

57:47

to happen. And then they were very confused

57:49

on why it didn't because that's what she

57:51

was saying. She was like, she

57:54

was saying all these things about how she

57:56

needs to go up and serve and

57:59

then she'll be back, you

58:01

know, never happened, obviously,

58:04

because that whole religion is not the

58:06

real thing. The video

58:08

of that time period of

58:10

the followers is so, I

58:12

don't have a better word than crazy, but

58:16

because they, you can just see

58:18

them clinging to this belief so

58:20

hard when you could see that

58:22

like, I've never seen cognitive dissonance

58:24

so strongly in action on

58:27

a video like that before, because

58:29

they are literally like her body's still

58:31

warm. Yeah, they're doing some like, the

58:33

electricity coming off of it. They

58:35

bring her to the woods and

58:38

they're like, okay, now it's time for you

58:40

to ascend. Like, okay, wake up. Yeah. And

58:42

of course it doesn't happen because we live in real

58:44

life. And I

58:47

mean, like, what was it like for you

58:49

watching that? Because like, not knowing

58:51

her at all, I was

58:53

fucking floored. And

58:55

it's just so like, tell

58:58

us about that experience. So

59:00

watching it for the first time, it was definitely super

59:03

hard because I hadn't, the producer at

59:05

the time, she was telling me like,

59:07

you know, I, I got to

59:09

see all the episodes before

59:12

it aired on TV to

59:14

make sure that there was nothing that needed

59:16

to be taken out, nothing that needed

59:19

to be edited, stuff like that. So

59:21

it was really hard. I was very angry. I

59:24

was, I think I

59:26

had a breakdown after that episode

59:29

because watching your

59:31

own parents deteriorate

59:34

and that rapid of a

59:36

rate is very

59:38

traumatizing, especially when you're

59:41

sitting there and you can do

59:43

absolutely nothing about it. Yeah.

59:47

So that was the hardest thing for me. You know,

59:49

it was hard for a long time. And

59:53

you know, I, for

59:55

after that, a long time after

59:57

that, they, I saw. I

1:00:00

could have done more. I had

1:00:02

this thought in my head that if

1:00:04

I went to her, if I

1:00:07

reached out to her more, if I

1:00:09

did all these things in order to be

1:00:11

a good daughter to her, she probably would

1:00:14

still be here. I could

1:00:16

have done something. She wouldn't be dead. But

1:00:19

the reality of that situation was that

1:00:21

I couldn't do anything. I literally didn't

1:00:23

have a choice but to watch her

1:00:25

die. And yeah, so

1:00:29

that was extremely hard for

1:00:31

me to go through. I'm so

1:00:33

sorry. And I don't, I don't, it's okay.

1:00:36

I mean, I don't wish anyone

1:00:38

go through the situation like that. Yeah,

1:00:41

I mean, it's also just the

1:00:43

lack of respect that they showed. Like,

1:00:45

yeah, there's so many layers of why

1:00:48

that I can't imagine how hard all

1:00:50

of it is. Yeah, the

1:00:52

only word is surreal for me. It just

1:00:54

feels like a bad dream. Yeah,

1:00:57

yeah. I again, we,

1:00:59

yeah, this, this experience

1:01:02

is just so crazy, Maddie. It's

1:01:05

unbelievable. Yeah.

1:01:07

Yeah, that's all I can say is

1:01:10

how, how crazy everything was. Yeah,

1:01:13

everything. And, you know, I look

1:01:15

back on it and I disassociate

1:01:19

from the whole situation. And

1:01:21

when I'm watching it, I'm watching it

1:01:24

as a stranger, you know, I,

1:01:26

in my mind, I don't associate

1:01:29

myself with that situation

1:01:31

at all. Because watching it is

1:01:33

so absolutely insane that you wouldn't

1:01:35

think that it would be you,

1:01:38

you know? Wow.

1:01:41

Wow. I mean,

1:01:43

now, like, theories has come out, you've

1:01:45

had some time to process, like, how

1:01:47

do you kind of think about all

1:01:49

of it now? And like, what,

1:01:51

I don't even totally understand my

1:01:53

question. I just want to know how you

1:01:55

are. How are you? Yeah. I'm

1:02:00

okay now. There's still stuff I'm

1:02:02

healing from, of course, because that's

1:02:05

a big thing to heal from.

1:02:07

It's not going to take a

1:02:10

month. But, you know, it's

1:02:13

slow but going, and I'm okay.

1:02:15

And, you know, I don't blame myself

1:02:18

for anything that happens anymore.

1:02:21

Even though sometimes thoughts cross my mind

1:02:23

where it's like, you know, you could have done something

1:02:26

more, but then I snap back

1:02:28

and I'm like, you really

1:02:30

could. It's a big healing

1:02:32

process, but I'm getting through it for sure. Do

1:02:34

you have any words

1:02:36

of wisdom for anyone who

1:02:39

might be listening and their loved one is

1:02:42

in a cult of some kind? You

1:02:45

know, you can't change who they are.

1:02:47

You can't change what they believe. All

1:02:49

you can do is, you know,

1:02:52

show that you

1:02:54

are supporting them from an

1:02:57

outlier perspective, not what

1:02:59

they're doing, but you

1:03:02

are supporting their mentality. You can't take

1:03:04

everything to heart. It's not you. You

1:03:06

didn't do it to them. But

1:03:09

if they ask you to be there for them, be

1:03:11

there. Yeah. For sure. That's

1:03:13

so wise. We have so many, we have

1:03:15

experts come on here and

1:03:17

say that very thing. But like, you have

1:03:19

no control over where they are. All that you can do

1:03:21

is be there and be ready for

1:03:23

if and when they decide that they're

1:03:26

done. And that timeline is not in

1:03:28

your control at all. Meet

1:03:30

them where they are. Be there for them

1:03:32

as a person. Yeah. And it sounds like you did

1:03:35

everything right. It sounds like you

1:03:37

did the maximum thing that you could have possibly done.

1:03:40

And somehow still stayed grounded as a

1:03:42

child and didn't end up like, I

1:03:44

don't know, it's a

1:03:46

miracle. It's unbelievable how strong you are. And

1:03:49

this perspective is something we've never gotten

1:03:51

before. So thank you so much for sharing

1:03:54

it with us. It's

1:03:56

really an incredibly tragic

1:03:59

story. but you are such

1:04:01

a beacon of light at the end of it. Yeah, I agree.

1:04:05

I try my best, that's for

1:04:07

sure. If any of her remaining

1:04:09

followers who still believe we're listening,

1:04:12

do you have anything you would want them to

1:04:14

know or hear? You don't have to answer, but

1:04:16

just if you do. Yeah, I would honestly tell

1:04:19

them I'm jealous that you

1:04:21

got to spend my mother's last

1:04:23

days together. I'm jealous. Well,

1:04:26

Megan's crying. Yeah,

1:04:29

if you haven't seen the doc, it's

1:04:31

really hard. Yeah, it's really

1:04:33

hard stuff. But I mean,

1:04:35

I'm so grateful to you for coming on. I

1:04:38

think it's just like, it's so helpful for

1:04:41

anyone who's been through some craziness related

1:04:43

to cults to hear how

1:04:46

normal the people

1:04:48

who love those people are. And also a

1:04:50

lot of people come out of cults, totally.

1:04:52

Like they're normal, you know, when

1:04:54

they wake up. So it's refreshing

1:04:57

to hear you and hear such a

1:04:59

grounded perspective, like Megan said, after such

1:05:01

a crazy fucking thing. So

1:05:04

thank you. Yeah, for sure. And would

1:05:07

you like to share your social media? Yeah,

1:05:09

you can definitely follow me on

1:05:12

TikTok at MaddieStroud1, that's probably the

1:05:14

most thing. I'm on

1:05:16

there talking about my mom and everything. And

1:05:19

yeah, you can also add my Instagram, MaddieStroud18.

1:05:24

I will, I will as well.

1:05:27

Thank you, Maddie. Unbelievable.

1:05:29

Unbelievable. Completely new take. In terms

1:05:31

of stories that we've had on

1:05:33

here. Absolutely. So

1:05:36

I think I know the answer to this already, but

1:05:38

we've come to the time of the episode

1:05:41

where I ask you, Megan, if you think

1:05:43

that you would join this cult, so would

1:05:45

you join Love Has One? I

1:05:47

think I would. I think you would too. Yeah,

1:05:50

it has everything for me. Name

1:05:54

it a mother. Sure. Love

1:05:56

mother figures. psychedelics.

1:06:01

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I love alcohol. I'm

1:06:03

not drinking it right now, but you know,

1:06:06

love that. Psychic readings, healings,

1:06:10

energy, traveling

1:06:12

to weird states with a

1:06:14

group of people done.

1:06:18

I totally think

1:06:21

that's true. Yeah. I, you know, I

1:06:24

have been in perfect storms

1:06:26

like this before where when the leader

1:06:28

starts acting erratic enough, I

1:06:31

am like, oh, you're, like,

1:06:33

I would have left. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, they

1:06:35

would have been there, but I would have been

1:06:38

there. Yeah. Yeah. Well in the first episode, they

1:06:40

all just seem so happy. Yeah, which

1:06:43

of course is that's how it goes. I mean, they're joined

1:06:45

because it's a good, it's, it's bringing good

1:06:47

things to their lives at first. But I, like, I'm watching

1:06:49

that and I'm thinking like, I want to have a sleepover

1:06:52

and a house with a bunch of friends

1:06:54

who are all like-minded. I probably wouldn't be

1:06:56

like-minded with this particular group of people because

1:06:58

I see the world differently. But

1:07:00

if there were like the equivalent

1:07:03

of that, you have like a little like

1:07:05

micro, like everybody has their own little like

1:07:07

microscopes and like vials.

1:07:09

Dude, I'd be so into it. Yeah. Yeah. This

1:07:13

is my version. And like making art and,

1:07:15

but like with science. Yeah, I'd be so

1:07:17

into it. Making art with science? I don't

1:07:19

know. I like both of

1:07:21

them. I like art and I like science. Okay? Can

1:07:24

you make science with art? There's the question. Ooh. Why

1:07:27

maybe? I don't know. Can you, well

1:07:29

you can make art with science. I know. Make

1:07:32

science with art. Yes. You can do studies of

1:07:34

art. No. Listeners. You

1:07:36

could. You could. All right. Yeah,

1:07:40

yeah, I would join. Whatever. I admit

1:07:42

it. Um, but you know

1:07:44

yourself. Yeah, I know myself. And you know

1:07:46

you're susceptible to. That's the main thing. It

1:07:48

is. Yeah, I would have loved it, but

1:07:50

it ended so tragically. And wow.

1:07:54

Never seen anything like it. Never ever.

1:07:56

No. Ever ever have I ever. Yeah.

1:07:58

Any who. Yeah. Please

1:08:00

rate us five stars. Go follow Maddie. Yeah,

1:08:03

go follow Maddie. If you want to hear

1:08:05

more from her, she has a lovely TikTok.

1:08:07

Yeah, she's really cool. And as

1:08:09

always, remember to follow your gut. Watch

1:08:12

out for red flags. And never ever.

1:08:14

And never ever. Oh, hi. Hello from the city

1:08:16

of Portoza and Woodward. Bobby Rop on C-Celimator. With

1:08:18

special thanks to Stacy Cara. And

1:08:20

our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church. You

1:08:29

can find us on Instagram at TrustMePods. Twitter

1:08:32

at TrustMeCultsPod. Or on

1:08:35

TikTok at TrustMeCultsPodcast. I'm

1:08:37

Oolalola on Instagram and Oolalola on

1:08:39

Twitter. And I am Megan Elizabeth

1:08:41

11 on Instagram and Vabraham Hit

1:08:44

on Twitter. Remember to rate and

1:08:46

review and spread the word.