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one person has all the answers don't

1:02

Welcome to trust me the podcast

1:04

about cult extreme belief and manipulation

1:06

from two forces who've actually experienced

1:08

it I am Lola Blanc and

1:10

I'm Megan Elizabeth and today is

1:12

part one with our incredible listener

1:14

guest Caitlin J Lavati a former

1:16

member of evangelical healing ministry or

1:18

as she calls it cult Operation

1:20

light force in this episode She's

1:22

gonna tell us about how she

1:24

joined the group when she was

1:26

struggling with Crohn's disease extremely sick

1:28

and isolated and how the group's

1:30

promises of community God and literal

1:33

physical healing Seems like the answer in

1:35

her moment of vulnerability and illness We'll

1:37

talk about how the leader Richard began

1:39

doing counseling sessions with her teaching his

1:42

followers that any physical ailment they Experienced

1:44

was a result of their own sin

1:46

or trauma or maybe just Satan in

1:49

any case The goal post was always

1:51

moving and he was the one with

1:53

the answers plus stay tuned for part

1:56

two next week When we'll discuss how

1:58

her counseling sessions led to Be. Todd

2:00

she'd experience say panic,

2:03

ritual abuse, Oh. Boy, there's

2:05

so much here. A We talked for

2:07

two hours and I feel like we

2:09

barely scratched the surface like there's just

2:12

so much. and she so smart and

2:14

how she thinks about it now. a

2:16

lot of awareness. Yeah, so before we

2:19

jump in with Caitlin okay, why do

2:21

I don't? But craziest thing you've ever.

2:26

Read what is undesired a thing

2:28

die then size as it was

2:30

young then and like a whole

2:33

new way of saying it's before

2:35

we proceed with Caitlin. Tell me

2:37

your coat is thing please. Okay,

2:39

my copious thing at this league

2:41

is actually old news. By it's

2:43

news that I had never seen

2:45

before and I found that interesting,

2:47

sad, scary and trusting and that

2:49

I would sit with y'all Maybe

2:51

some of you all heard about

2:53

it when it happened, but I

2:55

had months anyway. I sign on

2:57

to Axe Twitter whatever you wanna call

2:59

it and I don't know if this

3:01

is your experience but my twitter feed

3:04

is just like absolute violence as well.

3:06

I want to look up as a

3:08

positive quotes and like this season and

3:10

it's just like people's arms being like

3:12

ripped off and as just the most

3:15

traumatizing set right. One of the things

3:17

that I saw was this man drowning

3:19

and I looked more into it. And.

3:22

He was this Indonesia in kind of

3:24

People were calling him a sauna in

3:26

our cult leader or somebody who had

3:29

kind of a spiritual group and his

3:31

community. And. He. Said.

3:33

That his chanting would make it so

3:35

that like he couldn't get eaten by

3:38

an alligator and somebody had gone missing

3:40

from an alligator attacks. So they drop

3:42

him in this body of water and

3:44

he starts doing the chanting and an

3:47

alligator just comes as and drag starve.

3:49

Oh my god I miss that completely.

3:51

When was that? two thousand and seventeen.

3:54

Wow. but for some

3:56

reason when i opened the access the first thing

3:58

it said me That's insane.

4:02

So it was the leader himself

4:04

who was taking him. Oh my God.

4:06

Yes. And his followers were like, what?

4:09

What? It just feels like such irony.

4:11

Like that's, that would be in a play. You know

4:13

what I mean? Yeah. And again, this

4:15

was a source on X. I did look

4:17

it up. I found it in a few other

4:19

places, but like a lot more information is needed.

4:22

I just found it interesting. So

4:24

often these leaders don't believe what

4:26

they're saying and know they're

4:28

full of shit. But the man definitely fully

4:30

believed it. Fully believed what

4:32

he was saying and immediately got taken away

4:35

by alligators. And just what that would

4:37

feel like to his followers who

4:39

are like, what just happened? Like

4:41

that's some immediate fucking cognitive dissonance.

4:44

10,000, 9,000 million. Yeah. How

4:47

would you even, I mean, listen, like we obviously

4:49

have seen a million examples of that where people

4:51

are like, you know, this is the date that

4:53

the end is coming and then doesn't come or

4:56

totally reverse position on anything.

4:59

And there will always be some justification

5:01

for it. But if he's not there

5:03

to like come up with the justification,

5:06

what do you then, how do you

5:08

then make sense of that? That's so

5:10

crazy. Wow. So yeah, I would

5:12

love to know information about what happened to that group, how they

5:14

at first dealt with it, what

5:16

their reasoning around it was, because obviously

5:19

you would have to have some reasoning,

5:21

I'm assuming. Yeah. Like if

5:23

you still wanted to stay in that

5:25

group and maintain that belief system, like

5:27

I wonder, maybe it's like, oh,

5:30

well, he wasn't up on

5:32

his righteousness. I'm sure

5:34

they expected him to just come back.

5:37

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

5:41

That's where my mind would go. Like, no, he did not.

5:43

He was extremely dead. But maybe it's one of those things

5:45

where it's like any day now still. Right. Right. I

5:48

mean, the brain will do weird things. That's so true. What about

5:50

you? I mean, it's your copious thing of the week. Well, I

5:52

Just was thinking about, you know, really relevant

5:54

to this episode and a lot of the

5:56

stuff we're about to talk about, this idea

5:59

of religious healing. Preventing people from getting

6:01

treatment that they actually need that could potentially

6:03

save their lives and that is actually happened

6:05

to one object family members this actually happened

6:07

to him and who was very devout a

6:10

part of a christian s religion that basically

6:12

didn't believe than health care as I think

6:14

he's he's young from the details because it

6:16

was. It was a while ago now but

6:19

they were just doing prayer and you saying

6:21

and thing that that was gonna be enough

6:23

and God was gonna save her and she

6:25

did not go to the doctor and get

6:28

the treatment that he needed and she. Did

6:30

end up dying. Land is so it's so

6:32

sad. As a sad I mean there's so

6:34

many people you know it's not as lit.

6:36

Listen, like sometimes maybe they would have died

6:38

anyway, but maybe they're alive. Could have been

6:41

a hell of a lot longer. You.

6:43

Know or just add on Elms getting

6:45

someone hop like that as they're getting

6:47

sicker and sicker. It just. it's so

6:49

fucking fucked off and I haven't looked

6:51

into this at all so I'm just

6:53

kind of yeah. my as you were.

6:55

One of the things I say in

6:57

this interview with Caitlin is like i

6:59

wonder if there has been a precedent

7:02

set for a church or elite are

7:04

facing consequences for encouraging people to not

7:06

that medical treatment when they need it.

7:08

To The really is it seems like

7:10

a form of of like violence sending

7:12

you are encouraging somebody. To not I

7:14

mean I'm on the lotta Jehovah's

7:16

Witness rather forwards and one of

7:19

the things. that

7:21

are of wood l a lot of

7:23

people up as lake than being like

7:25

and this seven year old refuse the

7:27

blood transfusion and like praise god yes

7:29

he lost his life but he were

7:31

now the like as that. Is.

7:34

The first place I would start with

7:36

that and nothing's ever been done. you

7:38

know lots of a me not to

7:40

my knowledge and my reddit board. ah

7:42

again we haven't done any research on

7:44

that. Know what to do? I have

7:47

a fondness by the is It just

7:49

seems like one of the great injustices

7:51

of a extreme religions and com that

7:53

do have these belief systems is that

7:55

you are there is a death that

7:58

doesn't need to happen or even. The

8:00

Great Illness that doesn't need to happen. It

8:02

seems like a loophole and the system that

8:04

we've seen a million times with called for.

8:07

It's like while you're choosing at right, but

8:09

it's like if you have been told that

8:11

that's the only way that you see an

8:13

area that's my it's not right, but I

8:15

could see where the law could be behind.

8:18

I mean I. I think the law is

8:20

very much behind, especially here. I think it's

8:22

catching up in a couple of places in

8:24

Europe may be, and it really varies state

8:27

by state how much the Lovely recognizes coerce

8:29

the control and. It's a really difficult

8:31

thing to prove. you really have to have

8:33

lots of stuff and writing and then even

8:36

then a lot of states the largest isn't

8:38

there yet, so I'll be curious to see

8:40

if that changes at some point. But in

8:42

any case, ya, if you're feeling sick, please

8:44

go to the doctor. And. Listen,

8:47

our medical our healthcare system isn't

8:49

great, but it's better than doing

8:51

nothing. Some that's my, that's my

8:53

thing for the day. Whatever. Yeley

8:55

an amazing. Also be toxic kalan

8:57

let's do it. Comes

9:03

to mind when you picture the perfect roommates.

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One who comes when you call, one who

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check out apartments.com The place to find pop

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friendly place. Welcome

9:40

Caitlin De La It he to trust me think

9:42

so much for being with us today. Thank.

9:45

You for having me! I'm very excited to

9:47

be! I'm. I'm. So excited to

9:49

have you on! So you were actually one

9:51

of our listeners who called and with the

9:53

craziest story that I think at we are

9:55

saying before we are recording I think is

9:57

really important to talk about because there is.

10:00

You'd problem. With this.

10:02

Idea of religious healing and people

10:04

being exploited in that way. Which.

10:06

We really have not talked very much about so.

10:09

To. Get us started! Can you tell us

10:11

a little bit about where you were at

10:13

before you got involved with this group and

10:16

how you got your diagnosis? A

10:18

salute. Leave So ah, Well.

10:22

Ah where I was that. Like in

10:25

terms of to geography. In

10:27

terms of religion like and for

10:29

so much and emotionally physically like,

10:31

what was your life like? Well

10:33

on. I am from the Tampa

10:35

Bay area so kind of moved

10:37

around a lot. I was kind

10:39

of what I would say. It's

10:42

like stereotypical able

10:44

bodied. Southern.

10:46

Baptist girls. Pretty

10:50

sporty pretty to my bank

10:52

us radically solely both my

10:54

friends. Who went to church every

10:56

Wednesday night? You through and you

10:58

know Sunday morning and Sunday night.

11:01

Ah I went to a plane

11:03

or district Fundamentalist Christian school which

11:05

is that with weird but my

11:07

parents were like ever really listen

11:10

to those guys. Like it or Churches

11:12

The way to do with. Don't worry about

11:14

it. Ah, watch Arsenal. That. Ah,

11:17

The house or don't quite remember

11:19

what? It was called but they they

11:22

have their own way of doing things

11:24

They believed like women should not cut

11:26

their hair were made thought they. Should.

11:28

Wear pants Now! So I

11:30

have very early on introduce

11:32

the idea that Christianity had

11:34

many different sets to it.

11:38

And that people had different. Ideas

11:40

of doing. Religion

11:42

and that everybody believes that their version

11:45

was the correct version, than that everybody

11:47

else was kind of doing it wrong

11:49

into running over there to stand your

11:51

lane and God will. bless you for

11:53

doing it correctly quote unquote ah and

11:55

i just sat cool okay as long

11:57

as we're doing it the right way

11:59

no worries And I didn't think

12:01

anything of it. And

12:03

then I went to a good Christian

12:06

college in my eyes. I wanted to

12:08

go to a Christian college and I,

12:10

you know, I

12:14

was a very dedicated Christian girl.

12:16

You know, I fastened in

12:19

solely when she's a youth camp and

12:21

I rededicated my life. I was a

12:23

super anxious girl. So I like got

12:25

saved at every altar call because I

12:27

was worried about the rapture coming and

12:30

taking me and being left behind. I

12:32

don't know if that resonates with anybody.

12:36

Yeah. Absolutely. And

12:39

then as I went

12:41

to college, I noticed that my

12:43

stomach started to get

12:46

tender a little bit more often than

12:48

it used to, but I strung it

12:50

up to maybe a few

12:52

late night meals or a little bit

12:55

too greasy tacos. You know, you're in

12:57

college, you're eating fast foods later than your

12:59

mom maybe would have made you. And

13:03

I'm listening to new music for the first time

13:05

and I'm out in the world for the first

13:07

time and everybody's so different. Oh

13:09

wow, everything looks so cool. And then

13:11

I just started

13:13

getting sicker and sicker and sicker.

13:17

And at first I was going into walking

13:19

clinics and I said, oh, you've just got

13:21

a stomach flu. No

13:23

big deal. Take

13:25

a Z-pack maybe do the brat

13:27

diet, bread rice, applesauce toast, you'll

13:30

be fine. Take a PDF life, check

13:32

it off kid. You're young, you're cool.

13:35

And it just kept getting more and more

13:37

serious. And

13:39

I was on Tricare, American

13:41

Military Health Insurance because

13:45

my dad was in the military. And

13:47

Tricare really isn't in my opinion, good

13:50

for specialty illnesses.

13:53

It's really not good for anything

13:55

other than like a cold.

13:58

So, and it's like. long

14:00

time to get in. So once

14:02

I realized, hey, I think there's something more

14:04

severe there. It

14:07

was about my sophomore year of college,

14:10

and I had dropped like 25, 30 pounds. And

14:14

I was like, okay, I need to

14:16

see like a gastroenterologist here, something is

14:19

wrong. Like I'm having

14:21

like diarrhea and vomiting every single

14:23

time I eat my skin splotchy,

14:26

my hair is starting to fall out

14:28

like this, something's not right. And

14:31

it took a few years to

14:35

even get diagnosed. So

14:38

that stretched through my entire

14:40

undergraduate course of me

14:42

jumping to different doctors, eventually getting off

14:45

of Tricare because it became clear that

14:47

none of the GIs that I could go to were

14:50

qualified to diagnose me. They were mostly

14:52

for elder care people. And

14:55

that entire time I was becoming more and

14:57

more desperate. I was restricting my eating because

15:00

you can't get sick if you don't eat

15:02

girl math. So bad

15:04

girl math, so sin for

15:07

taste. No, bad. Yes, not

15:09

advisable girl math. But so

15:17

I that whole time is growing

15:19

thinner and thinner and thinner and more

15:22

and more and more desperate and

15:24

kind of reaching out to God as

15:27

as I knew it being like, Hey,

15:29

God, this me. Margaret

15:32

like, Hey, like, where

15:34

are you? I'm praying, I'm

15:36

doing the things that I'm supposed to be

15:39

doing. And I'm, I'm

15:41

not seeing any relief. And it didn't quite come from

15:43

there. And then I started

15:46

taking advice from loose friends and relatives

15:48

that start to come out of the

15:51

woodwork when you get really sick. Like,

15:54

Oh, have you tried maybe

15:56

doing yoga or Oh, have

15:58

you maybe tried Plans

16:00

or have you tried acupuncture? Have

16:03

you tried essential oils are and

16:05

the list goes on and on

16:07

and sure anyone with a chronic

16:09

illness or any serious disability or

16:11

disease will be familiar. With

16:14

a hail of so

16:16

I tried everything. At

16:19

a certain point everything and anything

16:21

that anyone would give me such

16:23

and such try got desperate hub

16:26

towards the point that I first

16:28

interacted with my. Ah

16:30

colts! I was getting

16:32

sick upwards of twelve to

16:34

fifteen times a day. And

16:37

com was only eating maybe once

16:39

or twice a week. I.

16:41

Love Laurie, You're describing.

16:45

Yeah. The applied in total nightmare

16:47

and it was miserable. It was

16:49

absolutely miserable. I can I trust you

16:51

enough? Ah, Absolutely horrible

16:54

It was. An

16:56

I think that that something

16:58

to. That a it's important the

17:01

context of what kind of police

17:03

to me in the upper new

17:05

addition ah tix kind of be.

17:08

Desperate. Because it's it's not.

17:10

Always people that are kind of like.

17:13

I don't know it it I, I I

17:15

think before are. Experiencing

17:18

this. I had in

17:20

my mind maybe the idea of a

17:22

person who would join a colts and

17:24

I don't think I. Would have

17:26

fit that description like that

17:28

or myself have a pretty

17:30

intelligent person and like articulate

17:32

like charming. I'm like bottom

17:34

three do my thing. I'm

17:36

from a suburb like you

17:38

know what I'm doing. Colts

17:40

in Southern? Who? Who? Who?

17:43

Horribly. Stereotypical and untrue. And now

17:45

that's part of why I reached out to you

17:47

guys in the first place. I'm like. It

17:50

if you are. Desperate

17:53

enough or alone and

17:56

us something that is

17:58

really. Stress from. That point

18:00

my life, I was advised to

18:03

medically drop out of undergraduate. And

18:05

I refused because I didn't want to

18:08

get behind in my schooling. I didn't

18:10

love Lucy year. I.

18:12

Was four hours away from

18:14

my family. Being. A

18:16

mother or. I didn't communicate

18:18

with them. Because. I

18:21

didn't let them know how bad it was.

18:23

I didn't know how to talk to them

18:26

about it. I didn't want them to feel

18:28

the burden of how sick that I was

18:30

or that I think I was dying and

18:32

pretty positive I was nine. I'm. At

18:35

a just was too much efforts.

18:37

So finally all that happens. And

18:40

I go home one summer. This was

18:42

around twenty four team. This.

18:45

Was the summer of my junior

18:47

year. And. I

18:50

went home and essentially all I could do because.

18:52

With all of that lack of food and

18:55

at. The Zulus energy so

18:57

essentially to bed ridden. My.

19:00

Brother came home from a Christian

19:02

summer camp. These camps make all

19:04

of the boys and girls here.

19:07

It's cute and ah she. Said

19:09

he. I left my backpack used.

19:12

Would. You come with me to go and get it. You.

19:14

Basically just sit around and. Like.

19:16

But you come with me. Or

19:22

up on I want to rewind

19:24

really fast because of can you

19:26

tell us what you're a diagnosis

19:28

actually was and on. And.

19:32

To doctors able to board able to do

19:34

anything at all like what was your history

19:37

at this point with the actual medical. Establishment.

19:40

Or fluidly. yeah, Thank you. So.

19:43

My. Diagnosis which came just

19:45

like right before that I

19:48

had just gotten diagnosed like

19:50

that summer it's of that

19:52

long. Arm with crumbs

19:55

disease. To. Thank you very much. I

19:57

appreciate that. Says I had to leave forgotten. It's

19:59

different. that part. I

20:01

got diagnosed with Crohn's disease

20:03

and a pretty severe Crohn's

20:05

disease so something to

20:07

keep in mind for later. My

20:11

Crohn's disease essentially is

20:13

an autoimmune disorder and

20:16

that is just essentially the immune

20:19

system attacking itself and in the

20:21

intestines in my case and

20:23

it works in flares and remissions.

20:25

So in my case I will

20:27

be in flares for several years

20:30

and then I will be in remission for

20:33

several years so positives

20:35

and then negatives. At

20:46

that point like so you got your diagnosis

20:48

and you're talking to a GI guy or

20:51

girl and what

20:55

are they giving you as options like what are they telling you?

20:58

So at that point because it had been

21:00

untreated for so long a lot

21:03

of my options were just damage control

21:05

so they

21:07

started me off on steroids because I

21:09

had a lot of active infections so

21:13

your prednisone essentially is what they give you

21:15

to knock down any infection almost and

21:18

then they'll give you a lot of

21:20

biologics or what they're called essentially to

21:22

kind of stomp down your immune system

21:25

because the immune system is what's attacking

21:27

you so if you don't have an

21:29

immune system it can't

21:31

attack you is essentially layman's

21:33

term. Wow. Oh

21:37

man that sounds so incredibly

21:39

stressful and painful. It is, it is

21:41

very stressful. Oh my goodness. So

21:44

I was facing down that option and then

21:46

towards the end of going to that summer

21:48

camp they were like hey your biologics are

21:50

not working so the

21:52

options we were looking at were low-dose

21:57

chemotherapy or

22:00

or bowel reconstruction

22:02

surgery. Oh, wow. So

22:05

those were my choices as again,

22:07

like a 19 year old. Oh

22:10

my gosh. Which is scary. That's

22:12

really amazing and terrifying. And I

22:14

had like medical phobia at that

22:16

point. So it was having

22:18

anxiety attacks like every time I was even thinking

22:20

about it. Oh my God.

22:22

So yeah, you're basically describing

22:24

a situation that

22:27

anyone who would be in that would

22:29

be desperate for an

22:32

answer, a solution, a cure. Cause

22:34

there's not like, it's not like you can just be

22:36

like, oh, you have Crohn's here you go. Here's your

22:39

Crohn's pill. And then you're just better. Yeah.

22:42

And there are like, I was definitely taking pills,

22:44

but at the end of the day too, like

22:47

with my level of severity,

22:50

there it was

22:52

maintenance pills. Like there

22:54

wasn't anything they can do. And Crohn's

22:56

disease is an incurable autoimmune disorder.

22:59

So even if I got into

23:01

remission, it's just about like maintaining

23:04

remission. Even then I would still

23:06

have symptoms, but we were at like all

23:08

the time high flare. Like your body is

23:10

damaging itself. If we do not stop it,

23:13

you are going to die. So

23:15

I would

23:17

have done anything. I

23:19

literally would have done anything. And I kind

23:21

of did. So I'm

23:23

sorry. I'm sorry. But understandably,

23:26

I mean, especially given the

23:28

context of your life up to this

23:30

point, which is somebody who was engaging with religion

23:32

and like. Absolutely.

23:34

Yeah. I think I may

23:36

have even understated it. Like I was a

23:38

very dedicated Christian. No, I was

23:41

gonna ask, like you said, you know, you

23:43

went to college, you're listening to new music,

23:45

you're meeting new exciting people. Like was there

23:47

a part of you that thought, oh my

23:49

gosh, I need to get away from all

23:51

of this and like rededicate myself to, I

23:54

don't know, to the Lord or the Lord.

23:56

And like, this has been bad luck or

23:58

something. Even when I was

24:01

like, oh, I'm listening to new music

24:03

and meeting new, exciting people, like I

24:05

was still, that was like in my

24:07

classes and like I heard new music

24:10

in a car driving by. Like I

24:13

was still so afraid that like

24:15

God would catch me at

24:18

the rapture and he'd be like, what

24:20

are you listening to? And I'd be

24:22

like, oh my God, sorry, it was

24:24

Aerosmith. And then I come. You

24:27

know, so I was so, I was

24:30

very dedicated and I

24:32

even like led a Saturday morning

24:34

Bible study at Panera Bread downtown.

24:36

Like I was still 100%. Panera

24:40

Bread? Panera Bread? Literally the whitest

24:42

thing you could think of. But

24:45

they let you? They were like, here's

24:48

the Panera Bread Bible study that was

24:50

fine? Well, okay. It

24:52

was like, they had a little outdoor courtyard.

24:54

Oh, okay, sure. We had bagels and we

24:57

did it outside. I would go

24:59

for the broccoli cheddar. I was gonna say, I'd go

25:01

for a sandwich for sure. Yeah, I would go. I

25:03

am definitely a carb girl. So I would

25:05

go for like, if it was morning, I'd

25:07

go for those like crispity crunchy, well, what

25:09

I could eat. You have to remember too,

25:11

I wasn't really eating at that time. Right,

25:13

right. I'd buy a bagel for show and

25:16

I would just like sit it next to

25:18

me. And then it'd be like, see you

25:20

purchased something so you can't legally kick me

25:22

out, right? And

25:24

I just give it to one of five of these

25:26

girls. Man, okay. I was

25:28

in a string. Yeah,

25:31

you were. And Panera Bread. Yes.

25:34

That is the new one. That's how the

25:37

Panera Minister. Panera

25:39

Minister, thank you so much for coming. You

25:41

turned to cream cheese, chuff, or five. They

25:44

were gonna get a letter from somebody being like, I

25:46

was in a Panera Bread cult. I

25:49

cannot wait. Cannot wait for that day.

25:53

She's like, I'm very sorry, but also how

25:56

was the schmear? I

25:59

apologize. Oh man. Alright,

26:02

so you were religious as hell basically.

26:05

I was low-key religious as hell, yes.

26:07

I could whip a sucker at a sword drill.

26:10

Yeah. Wow. OCD almost, maybe.

26:12

Like it was like taken

26:14

over. Yeah. A little bit.

26:16

I started having anxiety attacks

26:18

about the rapture and being left behind when

26:20

I was like 10. So...

26:24

Meghan, are you relating so hard to this right

26:26

now? I was gonna ask if you

26:28

were raised in the same thing as religion as me,

26:30

but... I know, it

26:32

sounded so similar. It did, but

26:34

you probably weren't. But

26:36

anyway, did you meet in homes or did you

26:39

meet in church buildings? So

26:41

we actually did meet in church

26:43

buildings. Okay, great. Then no. Different

26:45

things. Yeah. Okay, but I

26:47

relate a lot to your story besides

26:51

the crown's part. Yeah.

26:54

Sorry. I felt the relating... I'm

26:57

sorry about my story. On a

26:59

personal level. Yeah. Yeah,

27:02

me too. I... like the

27:05

state of mind you must have been in with all of

27:07

this going on at the same time. Like I can't even

27:10

imagine to throw in being sick

27:12

into all of that. Seriously. So

27:16

as you were starting to say, maybe you can

27:18

start this sort of part of the story over.

27:22

How did you then find out

27:24

about Operation Light Force? Are you

27:26

cool with saying their actual name? I am cool,

27:28

yes. Okay. How

27:30

did you... I'll say it again then. How

27:33

did you come upon Operation Light Force? Well,

27:36

my brother had gone

27:39

to a summertime

27:41

youth group. My...

27:43

I believe it was

27:46

my junior year of undergraduate. And

27:49

I had gone home for the summer and was laid

27:51

up in bed being depressed for

27:53

some reason. I can't imagine why. Why

27:55

would you ever be? No. I was

27:58

really like... people

28:00

out for some reason. I don't know

28:02

why that is. And he

28:04

came up to my room and he was like, Caitlin,

28:06

all you do is like

28:09

lay around, come sit in the car with

28:11

me at least, and like, see

28:13

some foliage as we drive by. And I

28:15

forgot my backpack at camp, like drive with

28:17

me to go get my backpack at camp.

28:19

And I said fine, because I love my

28:21

younger brother. So I, you

28:25

know, shout out to my younger brother. If you

28:27

hear this, we did it. Doug, we got out.

28:29

He was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, we were both

28:33

in it together. Wow. Yeah.

28:35

Whoops. Sorry. So you're bad.

28:37

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Your fault.

28:45

Your fault. No, he

28:47

feels that. But so

28:50

he's, we wander back into

28:52

like this convention center, thick,

28:55

old red carpeted, like

28:57

hall, and we

28:59

find his backpack. But there

29:02

seems to be like another worship service

29:04

already happening. And I'm like, okay, like,

29:07

let's not interrupt. Like, let's grab your

29:09

backpack and go. And we

29:11

kind of glance over and he's like, Oh,

29:13

I know those guys. They like led some

29:16

sort of like little interim service for us

29:18

once during our, like youth camp, like they're

29:20

kind of chill. You want to go poke

29:22

your head in? And I was like, no,

29:25

no, no, go drive. And he was like,

29:27

no, no, they're really cool. Like I talked to them like,

29:29

let's just go poke our heads in. So it's like, okay.

29:32

And we went and kind of poked our heads in. And

29:34

it was in my first

29:38

impression, a group

29:40

of mostly middle

29:42

aged people, very

29:46

charismatic for

29:48

my Christian

29:51

raising group of people

29:53

singing and dancing and

29:55

praising and worshiping. And they've got

29:58

like, banners and and

30:00

things and I'm just not used to that.

30:03

Like that is not how my

30:05

group of people worship God at

30:07

all. We stood in pews and

30:10

we had our hymnals or we read

30:12

off of PowerPoint slide projectors and we

30:15

stood still or maybe did a taste

30:17

so little back and forth and that's all.

30:19

But they were like, they were

30:21

going for the Olympics. They were raving.

30:24

They were asking like, like,

30:26

use car sales

30:28

noodles in front of the

30:30

car. Wow, that sounds fun as well. Yeah,

30:33

they were like joyful and they

30:35

turned around and saw us and

30:37

instantly just like

30:39

kind of set upon us with

30:42

this huge hug and smiles. Oh

30:44

wow. And they're

30:46

like, we're so glad you're here. And

30:48

they're like, how is this? And he's like,

30:50

this is my sister. And they're just like,

30:52

oh, and all the women come around me

30:55

and they're like, oh, you're so beautiful.

30:57

You're so radiant. And

31:00

like, we just love to stay and like worship with

31:02

us. And I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

31:04

But at the same time,

31:07

they seem so genuine and

31:09

so sweet and so warm.

31:11

And I'd never seen anything

31:13

like this before. And it

31:15

was a little odd. I'm not gonna tell

31:17

you it wasn't a little odd, like the

31:20

dancing and the waving and stuff. But

31:23

it felt nice to be

31:25

like, and then and then stuff.

31:27

And I never, I hadn't heard

31:29

of Dr. Fasson's bite

31:31

model yet. Like I

31:34

might have done all of my

31:36

studying. I didn't know what love bombing

31:38

was. So I was like, these

31:40

are, and I was going through, I was

31:43

a teenager. I was going through kind of

31:45

a rough go with my parents as all

31:47

teenagers kind of do with religious trauma

31:49

especially. So I was having a tough

31:51

time with my parents. These are essentially

31:54

pseudo parent substitutes to all tell me

31:56

that I'm gorgeous and beautiful and perfect

31:58

and wanna give me big. hugs

32:00

so I'm like okay

32:06

yeah how many of them were there? Oh goodness

32:09

in total at

32:12

that worship service like 20 25

32:16

and they were just playing acoustic guitar going for

32:18

it and over the

32:20

course of the evening like they broke

32:23

into a little small group and they

32:25

did like a Bible study and they

32:27

did like prosthetic word

32:29

which I'd never heard or

32:32

experienced before either which

32:34

essentially equated to them saying like

32:36

since you're a special guest like

32:38

we'll do it for you we're gonna

32:40

ask God if he has any words

32:42

about or for you and about your

32:44

future and they all kind of went

32:46

around in a circle and I

32:49

was like you guys are gonna make

32:51

everything just about me and you're gonna

32:53

ask God about me okay like if

32:55

you want sure I'll do fortune telling

32:58

all right and

33:00

it was all this lovely mixture of

33:02

like like God cherishes

33:04

you and like he adores you and

33:06

you're like his daughter and like

33:09

there's powerful things for you to do

33:11

in God's kingdom and like the enemy

33:13

sees that and like he's

33:15

trying to like put this stronghold on

33:17

your life and like the enemy is coming

33:19

really strong against you right now is enemy

33:21

the enemy yes

33:23

and I'm like he is yeah

33:26

like I have a lot of really bad

33:28

shit going on right now and they're like

33:30

we can sense that yeah like the Holy

33:32

Spirit's telling us that like you know wow

33:34

on and I'm like I

33:36

do yeah wait is it this

33:38

is like multiple people saying this

33:41

to you a group of women

33:43

like wow broken up by

33:45

gender and my brother was kind of

33:47

separated for me in the men world

33:49

doing that for him so

33:52

it's essentially this big like

33:54

cold reading thing yeah it's

33:56

well that made summer vibes seriously

34:00

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

34:03

Yeah. And then at some point,

34:05

the leader kind of comes over

34:08

to me. And

34:11

my brother introduces me to him. And

34:15

his name is Richard, which his name

34:17

you can include. What's

34:21

Richard like? Richard?

34:27

Richard is or was then. I

34:30

haven't seen or spoken to him in

34:32

years and years. And likely will not.

34:35

Not likely. Will not. Shut

34:37

up. Character. He

34:40

in that moment was very

34:44

soft and gentle and

34:46

charming. He

34:48

was not and is not an overly

34:51

handsome man or an overly alluring man.

34:54

He's average looking, average height, average

34:56

build, kind of a dad bod.

35:00

Middle aged, white hair. And

35:03

the most striking thing physically about him, I

35:05

think he has nice blue eyes. But

35:08

he has a very good speaking voice. And

35:11

he had a good cadence. And

35:14

he just had an air of authority

35:16

about him. And he

35:18

was a prophet. Did

35:22

he describe himself as such? He

35:25

did. In that first meeting?

35:28

Yeah. Wow. That's the bold

35:30

thing. That I'm Richard. I'm a

35:32

prophet. Yeah. But it

35:35

got off a little easier

35:37

because he's like we're all

35:39

prophets of God. Kind

35:41

of using that as like we're all apostles

35:43

of Jesus or something. So I was kind

35:45

of like he's not calling himself a prophet

35:47

per se. But as we continued

35:50

on, I'm like, no, he's like capital

35:52

T, the prof.

35:54

So like, yeah. I

35:57

mean, it's really interesting. I feel like this is such a

35:59

great question. a cinematic way to enter

36:01

a group because normally you hear

36:04

such a it's a lot

36:06

slower it's a lot more subtle and

36:09

it's a lot less immediate love bombing

36:11

from like a group of people all

36:13

at the same time but

36:15

you're like getting though you're getting like the fast track

36:18

version of all of this and

36:20

the thing is is that it's still it

36:24

was the combination for me I think of looking

36:26

back the combination of I didn't have

36:28

any people in my life for me

36:30

to bounce this encounter off of for

36:32

me to talk to and say wasn't

36:34

this weird except your brother who already

36:37

knew them and like exactly like my

36:39

parents I didn't really mention it to

36:41

other than yeah I met some people

36:43

worshipping at max youth camp and they're like

36:45

yeah of course people were worshipping in max

36:47

youth camp like obviously

36:49

that's what they do there right hmm but

36:52

like I at

36:54

the time was really isolated and I

36:56

didn't really have a lot of friends

36:58

at school and I was

37:01

super I had untreated depression because

37:03

of the Crohn's disease and a

37:06

lot of other stuff like depression

37:08

and anxiety are co-morbidities of Crohn's

37:10

disease and a lot of other

37:12

autoimmune disorders and suddenly like minor

37:15

in like super well treated

37:17

now and I'm feeling fantastic in that

37:20

regard great therapy amazing

37:22

it works fantastic everybody go do

37:24

it if you're able to but

37:27

like if it

37:29

like because of that too I

37:31

was just like kind of isolating

37:33

myself and I just the combination

37:35

of that isolation and

37:37

the desperation of like

37:41

my circumstances I just

37:43

kind of fell right

37:45

in and when they

37:47

looked me in the eyes and they were

37:50

like you need help don't you I was

37:53

just like yes and

37:56

what are the odds that the one time you

37:58

leave the house this happens Right.

38:00

Right. It's all just my luck

38:02

at that point. Also, it feels

38:04

like a miracle. To be at the,

38:07

yeah, yeah, a miracle to me. It's not like

38:09

a miracle. Yeah. I have

38:11

email correspondence back

38:14

and forth, setting up scheduling appointments

38:17

with them because after

38:19

that, their

38:21

offer to me was like, how do we see

38:23

you again? And I

38:26

was like, well, I don't know.

38:28

How do I see you guys

38:30

again? Wandering, worshipping people, you know,

38:33

mass of song and ribbon. Um,

38:36

and they were like, well,

38:40

Richard thought that I

38:42

could benefit from receiving

38:45

some counseling. And

38:47

I was like, oh, like therapy.

38:50

And he's like, we call

38:52

it counseling ministry because they legally can't call

38:54

it therapy because

38:56

it's not what it is. Because it's not. That's

38:59

not right. And I've actually checked their website since

39:01

then. And they, when I enrolled

39:03

in it, it was called counseling. They've

39:06

changed the language on their website since then

39:08

to remove the word counseling as well. And

39:10

that's just called ministry. It's called

39:12

like healing ministry or

39:14

something like that because they can't call

39:17

it counseling either. For

39:20

the better, I suppose, but no one should

39:22

do it anyway. In

39:32

hindsight now, they're getting too much away

39:34

about where you ended, hierarchically

39:37

in this group. Like,

39:39

was there some

39:42

kind of like system or teaching about how

39:44

to approach new people that you can now

39:46

identify in the way that these women spoke

39:48

to you? What's

39:51

interesting is no. There

39:56

was never anything so overt.

40:00

that and

40:02

that's the thing to to this

40:04

moment that I still believe

40:07

is that I don't

40:10

think that the people at

40:12

the level that I ended up at at the very

40:15

least we're doing

40:18

anything with malicious

40:21

intention I don't think that

40:23

it was go out and

40:25

you need to hit this many numbers

40:27

today and that's

40:30

kind of the insidious thing

40:33

about it unfortunately because I

40:36

definitely did that to people I

40:39

definitely love bombed people and I didn't

40:41

know that's what I was doing

40:43

I a hundred percent cold-red people

40:45

again away but like it

40:49

wasn't taught to me like this is how you do

40:51

it this is how you make it convincing this is

40:53

how many people it was just this

40:57

is how you love someone in

40:59

a godly way and these

41:01

are your spiritual gifts and this

41:03

is how you ask godly and

41:07

if you are a godly Christian and if

41:09

you're in this group this is how you

41:11

should have kind of behavior

41:15

right it's more implicit

41:18

than that yeah yeah okay that's interesting

41:20

I mean it makes I

41:22

think generally most people who are like recruiting

41:24

it like are still believing they're doing the

41:26

right thing and you know like even when

41:29

they are taught it in a more explicit

41:31

way but it sounds like these women were

41:33

just like we must

41:35

be godly toward this precious young

41:37

girl who clearly needs our help I

41:40

I do think at least the

41:42

majority of them right I

41:44

think there there may have been a

41:46

few I think who were in for

41:49

lack of a better term like higher

41:51

echelons who may have been more aware

41:53

of what they were doing but as

41:55

always you know there's a few but

41:57

not most not most them

42:00

I would I would estimate but

42:02

yeah you mentioned traveling

42:04

so was this a group that's

42:07

like traveling around like what's the

42:09

situation so they were

42:11

slightly itinerant in so much as

42:13

they did not have a church

42:16

building sort of to

42:18

your earlier question they did not

42:21

have one church building they met in

42:23

people's homes or anywhere that would have them

42:26

their whole stance was we need to

42:28

get back to the

42:30

true scriptural church we need

42:32

to meet in smaller groups

42:35

in people's houses and homes

42:37

and less flamboyantly ironically kind

42:40

of as the original

42:44

Church of Christ met like

42:46

the original Apostles would have

42:48

met so we mostly met

42:50

in people's houses at first and we did

42:52

kind of have a little boom there for

42:54

a minute and then

42:58

dwindled back down there again

43:00

at the end we have

43:03

our numbers fluctuate. So

43:05

all right so you get this

43:08

message saying you're supposed he wants you to do

43:10

counseling with him so what does that mean to

43:12

you and and how do you feel about it

43:14

at that point? At that

43:16

point I was ecstatic because

43:19

when I heard the word counseling I thought therapy

43:21

and I'd always

43:23

been told and heard therapy is a

43:26

good thing and I thought that I

43:28

needed it especially well I

43:30

just thought that I needed it I recognized

43:32

that I was probably anxious and I had

43:34

heard the word depression for the first time

43:36

in undergraduate from like roommates who were like

43:38

hey I think you might have depression and

43:40

I was like what is that? So I

43:43

was like what is

43:45

that? And she's like you should look it up

43:48

on the internet I think you might have that.

43:52

Jesus says you don't have that stuff I'm pretty sure.

44:00

But um so I was I

44:02

was excited. I thought finally and a godly

44:04

therapist to how grand so they won't teach

44:07

you any of that bad Evolutionary

44:10

therapy or whatever And

44:18

did you at that like did

44:20

you already think that there was something

44:22

special about him specifically I Absolutely

44:26

after the first night I

44:28

mean he emerged between a crowd of people

44:30

with an acoustic guitar and looked me in

44:32

the eye But that I was a beautiful

44:34

perfect angel who God told him was a

44:36

beautiful perfect angel I was like cops is

44:38

that about me with his blue eyes. I'd

44:40

be I'd be done Yeah, essentially

44:43

like a substitute father figure who

44:45

had a direct line to Jesus and

44:47

Jesus also said that I was cool after

44:50

like my god 19

44:52

years of me worrying that I was blowing

44:55

everything in regards to my Christian walk and that

44:58

I actually Wasn't even saved

45:00

because behold I stand at the door and

45:02

knock and then Jesus says actually I don't

45:04

even know who you are back up Like

45:06

I was so worried that whole time. So

45:09

I was like Instantly

45:11

yeah This

45:13

man says I can help you solve all

45:15

your problems and God right God wants

45:17

to help you God wants to heal you I'm

45:20

like, I thought he meant emotionally at that point,

45:22

but I was

45:24

like still yeah, bring it on. Yes, please

45:28

Bring right And

45:30

so tell us about those first Counseling

45:34

in quotation marks counseling session.

45:36

Well the first counseling sessions Was

45:41

long they were long it's the first thing

45:43

I remember They

45:45

lasted like two to four hours At

45:48

the beginning Wow. Yeah, and you're

45:50

sick Yeah, I

45:53

was sick Wow So

45:56

that was one thing and I always remember that that

45:58

was a lot but I did didn't really have anything

46:00

to measure that against. So I was like,

46:03

maybe therapy just takes a long time. They

46:06

were free, which was good.

46:09

But they did always stress to me, like we usually

46:12

charge people for this, just so you know. And

46:15

I was like, okay, so like, are

46:18

you going to start charging me at some point? Like,

46:20

should I be aware of that? And they're like,

46:22

no, just so you know. And I was

46:24

like, so I shouldn't like recommend it to people? Or like, why are

46:26

you telling me this? Like, I

46:28

don't know. Just to make sure you stay

46:31

grateful and keep wanting

46:33

to go. Yeah. They're like,

46:35

I'm like, why are you telling me? Why are you telling

46:37

me that? I'm

46:39

like, sorry, that I'm asking for it.

46:41

You told me to come. I don't know.

46:43

Yeah. So

46:46

they initially were

46:48

just like, tell us about

46:51

your childhood, you know, basic

46:53

kind of therapy, ass sounding

46:55

stuff. And I'm like, okay, therapists

46:57

are supposed to ask you about your childhood. I've seen

46:59

that on TV. That makes sense. And then they're like,

47:01

tell us about your walk with Christ. And I'm like,

47:03

that sounds like Christian. That sounds good.

47:05

Okay, sounds good. And then they would ask

47:08

you about like sins that you were struggling

47:10

with. And I'm like, that totally makes sense.

47:12

Cause you know, they ask

47:14

you about that in Sunday school. No big deal. So

47:16

then it's like, you're talking about the sins that you're

47:18

struggling with. And this is again, just for hours. And

47:21

by then, I mean, my sessions

47:23

were always led by Richard. And

47:26

I will say, any time that I was there,

47:28

they always had another woman there as well.

47:30

Okay. I will put that on the

47:33

table. That's something? Okay. It was never just

47:35

me and him by ourselves alone. They always, if

47:37

I was doing counseling or a woman

47:39

was doing counseling to their credit, there

47:41

was always another or at least two

47:43

other women there. So, two to three.

47:45

Okay, interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But

47:49

then eventually, I guess kind

47:52

of when the boring starts bringing

47:54

out, we really quickly after

47:56

life, by the end of session

47:59

one or the... beginning of like the second

48:01

session, they were like, kind

48:04

of digging really deeply into

48:07

the idea of like spiritual

48:09

warfare and the

48:12

idea of like, my quote

48:15

unquote sin, causing

48:18

repercussions in the physical world.

48:22

Yeah, I'm sure you've got to

48:25

see where this is going. All

48:28

right, go on. Yeah. So

48:33

the devil and angels

48:36

are always fighting over the world.

48:39

And, you know, whenever they

48:41

see such a perfect, wonderful,

48:44

cool gem, like me, one

48:46

of God's favoritest babies, they

48:50

want to come and like, right. I'm

48:54

like, I guess that makes sense. Because you

48:56

did tell me last week, Jesus said that I'm like

48:58

a road dog. So cool. And they're

49:01

like, so that's what happened

49:04

was that Satan has come

49:06

and like probably kicked your ass.

49:08

But just in case it's not Satan, it

49:11

could be your fault too. And I'm like, Oh,

49:13

no, like, how

49:16

so and they're like, okay, but

49:19

gently, what's like

49:21

all of the bad things that you've ever

49:23

done in your whole life? This

49:26

is psychology as seriously seriously.

49:30

Oh, like psychology. Let's

49:32

just write this all down all of your worst

49:35

secrets and things. And don't worry about it. Write

49:37

it down. I still have the handbook. It was

49:39

like 100 pages. Oh,

49:42

wow. I couldn't even keep track of all the

49:44

bad like of all the things I feel guilty

49:46

about. I missed something but I was I was

49:49

always a good student. I was very

49:51

diligent. So I tried. I mean, if

49:53

it would heal my Crohn's disease, I

49:55

wanted to try and at first

49:57

they didn't quite draw the line that

49:59

directly. but they would heavily imply

50:01

like, sometimes

50:04

whenever sin like is in your life,

50:06

they kind of loosely correlated it to

50:09

the idea of like, well, you know,

50:11

sometimes how trauma in

50:13

the body or stress in the

50:15

body can cause physical symptoms, you know,

50:17

how sometimes if you're stressed or you're

50:20

overworked, then you get sick. I'm like, I

50:23

guess sometimes I've heard that

50:25

if you work too hard,

50:27

you're more likely to get sick. Yeah.

50:29

So they take that idea and they kind

50:31

of spin it to where they're like, well,

50:34

if you have trauma or

50:36

like sin in your body,

50:39

then it also can make you

50:41

sick because it's and then it kind

50:43

of naturally progresses from trauma or

50:45

sin. Yes. So, okay.

50:48

So trauma being

50:51

things that happen to you

50:53

as well as things that

50:56

you have done. So

50:58

you don't know if

51:01

it's emotional or sexual abuse. So,

51:03

but the trauma is things that have happened to you and

51:05

the sin is the things that you have done. Correct.

51:09

But you don't know which is which. Correct.

51:12

And you also don't know if it's Satan doing

51:14

it to you because you're such a good person.

51:16

Correct. Oh, that's a

51:19

great point. So like, you don't know if it's a

51:21

sin and God is punishing you or if you

51:23

haven't sinned at all and Satan's just being

51:25

a dick to you because you're so adorably

51:27

perfect. Well, it's not

51:29

God punishing you. God wouldn't do that because

51:31

he's okay. Oh,

51:34

okay. So Satan then, so

51:37

then what just then? Yeah. What

51:40

is what is sin? Is that Satan taking

51:42

advantage of your like weak points? So

51:45

and again, this has been a really long time

51:47

since I've been in this, but I

51:49

think what it is is that the sin

51:51

or like the foul nature of

51:53

the trauma within you gives evil

51:58

forces. I think it. They

52:00

revert to like, they have their

52:02

own language for this stuff and I'm trying to

52:04

remember the verbiage. It's like

52:06

legal right to your body and

52:09

your soul so that like it

52:12

gives them like claim to...

52:15

I'm serious. They have so much

52:17

lore. This is like zapping full

52:19

of lore. Wow. It's

52:21

like a birthright or some sort of

52:23

like legal claim to your soul unless

52:26

you purge it of all of this

52:28

stuff. Legal claim? Yes,

52:30

yes. I'm serious. Who is

52:33

the pledge? Lord of the Rings level. Seriously.

52:36

So like God has like saved

52:39

your eternal soul but while

52:41

you're on earth like you're

52:43

under the domain technically of

52:45

like Satan because you're in

52:47

a fallen world. Great. So

52:49

he legally can technically... It's kind

52:51

of like... Legally. Yeah. Birthright.

52:54

Okay, you get it. I'm gonna start talking

52:57

about the things Satan is legally allowed to

52:59

do because I think it's very funny. But

53:01

that means... He can't torture you. Wow. This

53:04

is a lore lore happy cult. This

53:10

has backstory for days. It

53:13

does. I mean, but the

53:15

thing that's so insidious there, I mean there are

53:17

two things I guess for me which one is

53:20

like, yes, stress is bad for your body.

53:22

We all know that stress isn't like good

53:24

for our health. Yeah,

53:26

like those things, yes, technically

53:28

don't make you healthier. But

53:31

to then take that and turn it into if you

53:34

have any trauma in your body or if

53:36

you do anything that's causing you stress, then

53:40

you gave yourself Crohn's disease. That's

53:43

not... That is not too much. That is fucked up.

53:46

And The other piece of it is

53:48

that like if you never know within

53:50

this lore like what's your fault and

53:52

what isn't, like you're gonna become... I

53:54

mean, I would become at least hyper

53:56

vigilant at all times about whether I'm

53:58

doing things that are making... The me

54:00

more said oh that's weird. That's like

54:02

exactly what I did that. That's.

54:07

A weird said you were there are. ah

54:10

a little practice ya know that literally

54:12

that the what happened and and something

54:14

to note to is that like. If

54:17

you run it out of things, Because.

54:20

The goal here is like you run through

54:22

a list of your own personal sense, right?

54:24

So if you're a weird little freak like

54:27

me and you're able to do the one

54:29

hundred page worksheet or whatever and you go

54:31

through all of your own sins, and you

54:33

go through your own. Trauma.

54:36

That have been inflicted upon you.

54:38

After you go through your own me

54:40

with people. Who are not licensed

54:43

to handle bringing up those.

54:45

Triggering as then. Which.

54:47

They are not. Sometimes

54:50

for the first time you are bringing

54:52

them up with those me more noise

54:54

triggering to do that. And.

54:57

In in my case like I will have

54:59

to say like I did bring up some

55:01

personal like traumatic events with those. Guys for

55:03

the first time. And they

55:05

were not qualified to handle it

55:08

And they viewed my. Triggered

55:10

emotional response as proof

55:12

of spiritual warfare right?

55:14

like crying or anxiety

55:17

attacks as. Evidence

55:19

that Satan was like

55:21

affecting me. And.

55:23

It is is goes on and

55:25

on. Every piece of emotional reaction

55:28

is used as evidence to. Float.

55:30

Validate their claims. but if you

55:32

get through all of that and

55:34

you go to. About

55:37

I once you about a year

55:39

or two. Of ministry

55:41

sessions with those guys. And

55:44

eventually I ran out. Of

55:47

my own sins and my ran

55:49

after that and at the same

55:51

time I was going to ministry.

55:53

And. I was going to their own church and stuff. Like

55:55

that you as to region

55:57

backward. Maybe. It was something

55:59

that. Parents dead. Maybe.

56:02

When the money your grandparents dead.

56:04

Maybe. Our My God

56:07

your grandparents joined a

56:09

masonic lodge main years.

56:14

With. Actually, A.

56:16

Satanist move.

56:21

For be landed. In about ah, I

56:23

joined the group and like twenty

56:25

four keen and then around twenty

56:27

sixteen, we introduced the concept that

56:29

I just hinted at. When

56:32

you run out of ideas what do you have

56:34

to do to keep people and once they can

56:36

play all of your ministry us are digging for

56:38

more ideas. You gotta start inventing

56:40

a say tannic past, correct? Goddamn.

56:46

I'm dying. The most interesting

56:48

story ssssss. I love the

56:50

on the website for Operation

56:52

Like Lauren and so I

56:54

said I was like watching

56:56

some of or less as

56:58

safe as name's. Richard, Richard,

57:00

the videos and worse. I specifically

57:03

made a lot of a couple

57:05

of the things that he put

57:07

a in this video and it's

57:10

an introductory video to the course

57:12

he's trying to get you to

57:14

buy the course. Oh my goodness.

57:17

One of them with contraception for

57:19

healing spells perscription F Y on

57:21

it says the A. Ah. There's.

57:24

A quote that says. Nothing

57:27

separate, separate. So. This chorus

57:29

claimed to heal a variety of things

57:32

including think that some fine like on

57:34

you know anxiety or whatever but an

57:36

as as one god's will to heal

57:39

you. So. Not just. Like.

57:41

To see. Whether. God is

57:43

willing to heal your of and then

57:45

to generational curses which I'm guessing is

57:47

referring to the you're talking about and

57:49

then also has freedom from the occult.

57:52

Yes, So these are

57:54

things that. So. Basically

57:56

what's being said here as a steps or

57:58

where you can never win. The goal posts

58:01

will move for ever which is

58:03

a classic Coke tactic. And.

58:06

And. Then also we're bringing the Say

58:08

tenant. We're bringing satanic panic into things

58:10

which is never good. It's never

58:12

good. Know. It

58:14

is never good. Also I would like

58:17

to point out that on his was

58:19

a currently like their whole structure is

58:21

changed to build themselves as like a

58:23

university now instead of a church was

58:25

a thought. It's been an interesting they're

58:27

selling their courses. Instead of being a

58:29

church which are rude to the your

58:32

church from a long time ago but

58:34

whatever. Yeah. Been.

58:37

A bit mechanic. Is here in a major

58:39

way. And as soon as I had. Gotten.

58:42

Out realized what it was which

58:44

took a long time in and

58:46

of itself and kind of recover

58:48

from that and started doing some

58:51

research and discovered like Bob Larsen

58:53

and Michelle Remembers and the say

58:55

tannic panic movements. I was shocked

58:57

at how. Exactly.

59:00

Exactly it matches it was.

59:02

It was almost word

59:04

for word. Exactly some of

59:07

those stories. And will leave

59:09

part one there for a

59:11

now come back for per

59:13

to. There's so much more

59:15

to get into with Caitlin

59:17

Meghan. Do think that you

59:19

would have for Julie. Nice

59:21

safe feeling group or you

59:24

know, engage in safe feeling

59:26

practices. Most definitely I have

59:28

a very bad what's the

59:30

word I'm missing piece of

59:32

armor around his ult lasers

59:34

as hard as my psyche

59:36

and that like I think

59:38

everything's. My fault she kind of

59:40

the month similarly you know know and

59:42

I think that if I just believe

59:44

differently at like you have different core

59:47

beliefs. Or a different whatever.

59:49

On that's the reality

59:51

around me. Well changed

59:54

man. So. I can absolutely

59:56

see myself getting pulled into a

59:58

group like this. I'm

1:00:00

just saying. I don't think that

1:00:02

would quite be my angle and

1:00:05

but I think that because I

1:00:07

have experienced what it's like to

1:00:09

have severe anxiety and have a

1:00:11

hyper fixation like honest and say

1:00:13

sense and I've experienced the process

1:00:15

of like working on Nod and

1:00:18

learning to not hyper fixate so

1:00:20

much and then like noticing that

1:00:22

some symptoms get better. not like

1:00:24

real illness but like some symptoms

1:00:26

like sensations get get better when

1:00:29

I'm not so anxious about them

1:00:31

I could see myself falling into

1:00:33

a similar way of thinking where

1:00:35

it's just more like oh well

1:00:37

as discuss your so anxious about

1:00:39

this you know, like I could

1:00:42

see myself really gas letting myself

1:00:44

if I had like an actual

1:00:46

serious symptom because I've experienced the

1:00:48

anxious side of that. Ah yeah

1:00:50

yeah, no bias is so interesting

1:00:52

and Caitlin sorry how many of

1:00:55

the just natural progression of friends

1:00:57

disease that's and to say killing

1:00:59

perfectly and. It's to zoc because

1:01:01

like it can to spontaneously get far

1:01:03

in, it's exacerbated by stress. I mean,

1:01:05

so many things are exacerbated by stores,

1:01:07

but that doesn't mean that stress is

1:01:09

the cause of them what so, or

1:01:12

that removing stress is going to steal

1:01:14

them and I think that's an important

1:01:16

distinction. Yeah, I think I ever had

1:01:18

a lot about how some people who

1:01:20

follow keep an Ariane. Next sam

1:01:22

remain or and remained. Stuck

1:01:24

on him for so long because of

1:01:26

the couple of people that he served

1:01:28

them: Tourette syndrome. Which. Had

1:01:31

been widely documented. Have you seen month?

1:01:33

Yeah, yeah and I am. That's part

1:01:35

of that that I. I mean, I

1:01:37

don't really know much about Tourette's syndrome,

1:01:39

so I don't really wanna speak to

1:01:41

it out of. Turn or anything. That

1:01:44

is it's assassin I'm very curious about

1:01:46

with regards to that group. Like how

1:01:48

much have Tourette's Syndrome is? what is

1:01:50

the origin of it? I guess I'm

1:01:52

that hasn't been interesting thing to to

1:01:54

dive into. And Peter opposite? Yeah, talking

1:01:56

about us just brought back to mind

1:01:58

for some reason. Yeah, I mean. Laughing.

1:02:00

I think some of the one of

1:02:02

the things that you know we've really

1:02:04

see a lot as like there are

1:02:06

these moments that really feel like miracles

1:02:08

with a lot of these total scam

1:02:10

artists and game explanations for that are

1:02:12

myriad and varied and totally depends on

1:02:14

the person in the group. and thus

1:02:16

you know, like there might be a

1:02:18

perfect confluence of factors. just like something

1:02:20

we're going to talk about next week

1:02:22

about Caitlin period of spontaneous remission that

1:02:24

really felt miraculous. You know how much

1:02:26

of it is like that? probably a

1:02:28

lot on probably. Mostly old sister

1:02:30

and so while being as her it's it's

1:02:33

definitely hard to say that that would be

1:02:35

something that they had to meet us. clarifies

1:02:37

the next him. To come on?

1:02:40

Well. Nexus episode. As a

1:02:42

banger we can't wait for yards hear

1:02:44

it. Thank you as all a As

1:02:46

for listening to as rate us five

1:02:48

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1:02:51

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